WEBVTT - Because It Is My Heart, Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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<v Speaker 1>is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 2>And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time for

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<v Speaker 2>a vault episode. This originally aired February fourteenth, twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's called Because It Is My Heart Part one.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the first part of a series we did

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<v Speaker 2>about heart removal and heart burial and such concepts.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because it's that time of year, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>Valentine's it's a pon us. So get in there and

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy this heart related content.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's jump right in.

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<v Speaker 1>In the Desert, I saw a creature, naked bestial who's

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<v Speaker 1>squatting upon the ground, held his heart in his hands

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<v Speaker 1>and ate of it. I said, is it good? Friend?

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<v Speaker 1>It is bitter, bitter, he answered, But I like it

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<v Speaker 1>because it is bitter and because it is my heart.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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<v Speaker 1>is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And that, of

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<v Speaker 1>course is the poem in the Desert by Stephen Crane,

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<v Speaker 1>a poem that I've long found nice and creepy and

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<v Speaker 1>thought provoking.

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of it depends on which word

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<v Speaker 2>in the last sentence you emphasize. Does he like it

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<v Speaker 2>because it is my heart or because it is my heart?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are several ways to piece it apart there.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's also the perfect poem for Valentine's Day. Today

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<v Speaker 1>is Valentine's Day. I don't know if anyone has ever

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<v Speaker 1>taken in the desert and transformed it into a Valentine,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think that's a fabulous idea. Depending on who

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<v Speaker 1>you're giving it to, you want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to understand the cleverness of this. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>just the right length. You know. You could put you know,

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<v Speaker 1>half of it on the front, half of it inside.

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<v Speaker 1>You could draw the best youal creature there consuming its

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<v Speaker 1>own heart. Somebody has to have done this before. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure someone will send links to this effect to us.

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<v Speaker 2>You could put it on those little heart shaped candies

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<v Speaker 2>that look like they're like made of chalk.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, Oh yeah, that would be clever. I mean, it

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<v Speaker 1>has to have been done. It's such a great idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Does anybody eat those? By the way, that does somebody

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<v Speaker 2>like the taste of chalk enough that they would consume that.

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<v Speaker 1>I remember eating them when I was a child, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe and I don't know if they're bitter, that

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<v Speaker 1>would but they are shaped like hearts. Yeah, at a

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<v Speaker 1>time when you ate a lot of candy, it made

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<v Speaker 1>sense to at least try a few of them. But

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<v Speaker 1>I think then you realize there were better candies to eat,

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<v Speaker 1>easier candies to eat.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's such a childhood mentality. It's like, well, it's

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<v Speaker 2>not good, but it is candy, so I guess I

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<v Speaker 2>have to eat it.

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<v Speaker 1>I should at least at least try it. It's just polite. Yeah. So, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>it's Valentine's Day, a time when we tend to think

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<v Speaker 1>about the over commercialization of love, and especially romantic love,

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<v Speaker 1>as well as the symbolism of the human heart. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I think this is a topic we've touched on before

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<v Speaker 1>on the show. You know, when it comes to the heart,

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<v Speaker 1>we know that this is the center of our circulatory system.

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<v Speaker 1>We know it pumps our blood, but it's also seen

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<v Speaker 1>as the symbolic or metaphoric seed of love and passion.

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<v Speaker 1>And given all these complex ways of thinking about the heart,

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<v Speaker 1>we also tend to feel a certain kind of way

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<v Speaker 1>about the topic of heart removal. When it comes up,

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<v Speaker 1>be it something that comes up in the biological you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the medical world, or if it comes up in random

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<v Speaker 1>horror movies, or just as a turn of phrase.

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<v Speaker 2>Is this how you landed on heart removal for the

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<v Speaker 2>topic this week? Where you watching a movie where a

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<v Speaker 2>heart gets ripped out?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I was specifically when I started thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about this, but we have watched several movies on Weird

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<v Speaker 1>House Cinema, our Friday Weird movie episodes that like. Particularly,

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<v Speaker 1>I think some seventies films we've watched, such as The

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<v Speaker 1>Loreleized Grasp, horr Rises from the Tomb, Return of the

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<v Speaker 1>Blind Dead, I think all three of those feature a

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<v Speaker 1>scene in which somebody's heart is cut out and it's

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<v Speaker 1>eaten by say a monster or occultest night that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait, am I remembering wrong? Is the whole point of

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<v Speaker 2>Lorealized Grasp that the monster eats people's hearts?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes? Yeah, she does. Yeah. Well, I mean there are

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<v Speaker 1>the aspects of the film, but it clearly in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of what is the gory point of the film that

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to be one of its main fascinations.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she eats people's hearts since she falls in love

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<v Speaker 2>with that. I don't know, Spanish German, Elvis Peter Fonda

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<v Speaker 2>kind of guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, yes, yes, anyway, yes, yeah, go back to those

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<v Speaker 1>episodes if you want more of that. When it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to heart ripping, of course, there are some more famous

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<v Speaker 1>examples that probably come to everyone's mind. There's the nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety two fighting gay Mortal Kombat. I think everybody that

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<v Speaker 1>was around in the nineties and in decades after, but

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the nineties, you have that very pixelized version

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<v Speaker 1>of that heart rip in mind. And then, of course

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<v Speaker 1>there's the nineteen eighty four film Indiana Jones and the

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<v Speaker 1>Temple of Doom, which features a rather famous heart rip

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<v Speaker 1>scene that despite the film being set in India, this

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<v Speaker 1>actual heart rip and all the things that the baddies

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<v Speaker 1>are up to are really take gory elements from at

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<v Speaker 1>least a couple of non Indian cultures, and some of

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<v Speaker 1>the cultures we're going to discuss in this episode and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of make a patchwork villain religion here for Indiana

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<v Speaker 1>Jones to go up against. And I think they also

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<v Speaker 1>incorporate more than a little bit of fictional satanic ritual,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's a very humbly able culture that Indiana Jones

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<v Speaker 1>is supposedly encountering in that movie, to say the least. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>now other heart rips of note correct me if I'm wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>but doesn't Jason Vorhees ripped out of heart at least once.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I don't recall. Probably yeah, well.

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<v Speaker 1>I do know.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one of the worst movies in the whole series.

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<v Speaker 2>Ends up like The Bunch of People, A bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>like troops come in and blow up Jason, and then

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<v Speaker 2>somebody eats Jason's heart and turns into Jason.

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<v Speaker 1>It's brilliant, Okay, I I had, I haven't. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think i'd actually seen Leprechaun six aka Leprechaun Back to

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<v Speaker 1>the Hood from two thousand and three. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>last one to star Warwick Davis, but that has a

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<v Speaker 1>heart rip in it. Like the heart rip scene I

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<v Speaker 1>guess in a film is usually pretty easy to do

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<v Speaker 1>because you just it's mostly sound effect and then the

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<v Speaker 1>visual of somebody holding a bloody, palpitating heart. Oftentimes that's

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<v Speaker 1>done by having the person squeeze like kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>rubber heart create the sound effective you desire. Other examples

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<v Speaker 1>come to mind the horror movie Valentine's Day. I'd forgotten

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<v Speaker 1>about this, but the Prophecy films have a lot of this,

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<v Speaker 1>with angels ripping each other's hearts out. Dumb and Dumber

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<v Speaker 1>has a heart rip scene that I'd forgotten about. I

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<v Speaker 1>can't remember if is that supposed to be a dream

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<v Speaker 1>sequence or is that supposed to really happen or does

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<v Speaker 1>it matter? In Dumb and Dumber it is a dream sequence, Okay, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Then there's a Rambo, Last Blood and Last of the Mohicans.

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<v Speaker 2>I've actually seen very few of these movies.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh well, we might have to come back to the

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<v Speaker 1>Prophecy films. Oh but I don't know. Some of those

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<v Speaker 1>you could probably miss, especially maybe Leprechaun six. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's kind of a staple of horror. Oftentimes, if

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<v Speaker 1>you have any kind of like supernatural being, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you have some sort of really lightning quick heart rip.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a great example of this on the HBO series

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<v Speaker 1>True Blood, which I guess overall looking back on it

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a mixed bag. But the excellent character actor

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<v Speaker 1>Dennis O'Hare does have this wonderful character, the vampire King

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<v Speaker 1>of Mississippi. His name is Russell Eddington. He's a real

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<v Speaker 1>highlight of the show. While he's on the show, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's a scene where I forget exactly what ticks him off,

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<v Speaker 1>but vampires are supposed to be secret in the series,

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<v Speaker 1>and he just gets mad and instantly like speeds to

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<v Speaker 1>like a live news broadcast and rips the broadcasters heart

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<v Speaker 1>out through his back, along with the piece of his spine,

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<v Speaker 1>and that stands out in my mind is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the finest moments of that series.

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<v Speaker 2>The main thing that comes to my mind is that

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<v Speaker 2>the manual heart removal is the primary move of an

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<v Speaker 2>unarmed Terminator in the Terminator films.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh did he rip some hearts out?

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<v Speaker 2>That's what Yeh's what Arnold Schwarzenegger does in the first

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<v Speaker 2>movie when he comes out to the punks. Yeah, he

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<v Speaker 2>like Bill Paxton or somebody or the guy Bill Paxton's

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<v Speaker 2>hanging out with.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been so long since I saw the first Terminator.

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<v Speaker 1>I really need to go back in and watch it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know why that's the move they chose. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's scary in the movie. I don't know if that

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<v Speaker 2>really speaks of robotic efficiency.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like taking the batteries out right, yeah, all right, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>with that out of the way, we're gonna begin to

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<v Speaker 1>move into what we're ultimately really talking about in this

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<v Speaker 1>pair of episodes this week, and that is heart removals

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<v Speaker 1>and how they factored into different views, different supernatural understandings

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<v Speaker 1>of the human body and the cosmos. We're not gonna

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<v Speaker 1>we're probably not gonna go super in depth into heart

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<v Speaker 1>symbolism and metaphors in terms of trying to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to completely cover the topic, because it is a broad topic.

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<v Speaker 1>You have, like any given culture has some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>idea about what the heart is, and there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of overlap, but then there are some distinct ideas mixed

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<v Speaker 1>in there as well, and we'll touch on some of these.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a good place to start would be, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>with the Egyptian heart. Now, there was we had a

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<v Speaker 1>past episode of the show this was there was an

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<v Speaker 1>interview that I did with author Bill Shutt, who wrote

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<v Speaker 1>a book called Pump. It's quite good. It gets into

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<v Speaker 1>animal hearts and various in the history of understanding the

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<v Speaker 1>human heart, Medical History of the Heart. Wonderful read. And

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<v Speaker 1>in that book he does bring up that, yes, the

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<v Speaker 1>ancient Egyptians knew the heart is ab or ib or HATI.

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<v Speaker 1>It was treated with a great deal of reverence, as

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<v Speaker 1>this was the organ said to contain a record of

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<v Speaker 1>the individual's good and bad deeds. And I think a

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<v Speaker 1>number of any if you've consumed any amount of Egyptology

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<v Speaker 1>over the years, you're probably familiar with the basic scenario

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<v Speaker 1>that is often related here that after you have died,

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<v Speaker 1>it is this heart that will be weighed against a

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<v Speaker 1>feather of maat the Goddess of Truth, to see if

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<v Speaker 1>you can indeed pass on into the realms beyond our

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<v Speaker 1>life here on earth, will or if you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be consumed by this ferocious beast of annihilation and thus

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<v Speaker 1>no longer exist.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a crocodile type or crocodile ish beast,

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<v Speaker 2>isn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, it is a crocodile asque I'm blanking on

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<v Speaker 1>the name of the entity off the top of my head,

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, you basically have the split road between annihilation

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<v Speaker 1>and continued existence. But you can only continue to exist

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<v Speaker 1>if your heart matches up against this feather of maat

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<v Speaker 1>the Goddess of Truth. Now, as Geraldine Pinch mentions in

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<v Speaker 1>her book, Egyptian mythology. Yeah, the ancient Egyptian's view, the

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<v Speaker 1>heart is the organ of thought and feeling, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was the seat of consciousness itself, and Maat the goddess

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<v Speaker 1>here is often seen as this ostridge feather adorned goddess

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<v Speaker 1>of truth and goodness. So thus her feather would match

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<v Speaker 1>the weight of your heart if you had truth in

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<v Speaker 1>your heart, if you had not at in your heart

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<v Speaker 1>at all. So that's the basic scenario there now. Shut

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<v Speaker 1>cites historian Roger K. French, who rationalized that the basic

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<v Speaker 1>idea in the Egyptian model here is that life is warm.

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<v Speaker 1>The heart is warm, the heart moves, and with its

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<v Speaker 1>movements we breathe, and our vessels carry blood to the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of our body. Shut also points out that the

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen fifty five BCE Book of the Heart may reveal

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<v Speaker 1>some level of understanding regarding heart attacks and aneurysms among

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.319
<v Speaker 1>the ancient Egyptians, but historians are not all in agreement

0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 1>onto what degree we could interpret it this way. Now,

0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.040
<v Speaker 1>given the importance of the heart in all of this,

0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:59.160
<v Speaker 1>especially the continuation of the soul and Egyptian belief, this

0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 1>probably reminds a lot of people out there of another

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.400
<v Speaker 1>fact about the mummified remains of an individual, about what

0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 1>happens to various internal organs. Several of these internal organs

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:15.520
<v Speaker 1>are often placed inside of a canomic jar, including the heart.

0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And so that brings me to how I wanted

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 2>to look at a specific example of a mummy to

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.680
<v Speaker 2>examine treatment of the heart in a case where it

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 2>was well documented. So obviously, Egyptian embalming, mummification, and burial

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.319
<v Speaker 2>practices varied by time and place, and ancient Egyptian civilization

0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.720
<v Speaker 2>spans a really long time, thousands of years. So the

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.800
<v Speaker 2>example I'm about to talk about is not characteristic of

0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.800
<v Speaker 2>everything in ancient Egypt. But I thought it was interesting

0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.960
<v Speaker 2>to look at one example in particular, especially because it

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 2>contradicts a generalization that many people have made over the

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 2>years about Egyptian mummification, one that I definitely remember learning

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 2>when I was younger. And the generalization is this that

0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 2>during mummification the brain is always removed. Of course, you

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.959
<v Speaker 2>get the famous grotesque image of the hook going through

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.040
<v Speaker 2>the face holes to remove the brain, and that the heart,

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 2>being the seat of the soul, as you just explained,

0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>was left in place in the body. So maybe the

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>other organs were removed, but the heart was left in

0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 2>the chest.

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.760
<v Speaker 1>And by the way, if memory serves, I think I'm

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:28.840
<v Speaker 1>remembering from a past episode on mummies. The brain. We

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.400
<v Speaker 1>have to remember the brain, I believe, is often thought

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 1>to have gone rancid first, to rot it first, and

0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.400
<v Speaker 1>therefore we have to factor that into all this as well,

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 1>along with these understandings for the ancient Egyptians about what

0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>organs were doing.

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Now, the specific mummy I was reading about that contradicted

0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 2>this generalization was featured in a paper based especially around

0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.280
<v Speaker 2>some ct scan research that was published in twenty fourteen

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 2>in the journal the academic journal The Yearbook of Mummy Studies.

0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a funny name. Makes you imagine the mummies are

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.600
<v Speaker 2>like writing, you know, stay cool, have a great summer,

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.040
<v Speaker 2>or they're like going through drawing hearts around all the

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.360
<v Speaker 2>mummies they have a crush on like this mummy's so

0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 2>cute anyway. So I was reading about this paper in

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 2>a concurrent article in Live Science by Owen juris called

0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 2>ancient Egyptian mummy found with brain no heart. So this

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 2>mummy is the body of a woman who lived about

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>seventeen hundred years ago according to radiocarbon dating, placing her

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>under the period of Roman control of Egypt. And she

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.240
<v Speaker 2>died somewhere between the ages of thirty and fifty, and

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.320
<v Speaker 2>her body shows signs of severe dental health issues and

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 2>tooth loss, which apparently is quite common for ancient Egyptian

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>bodies from this period. I don't know if that's because

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 2>they were getting lots of sugar or what. I don't

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 2>know what the explanation is, but a lot of dental problems.

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 2>In the religious and cultural context would be This was

0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:59.880
<v Speaker 2>a person who still adhered to a version of tradition

0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Egyptian religion, or the variant of it that was popular

0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.440
<v Speaker 2>at this time, at a time when Christianity was actually

0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.640
<v Speaker 2>spreading through the region and becoming more and more dominant. Now,

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 2>in contradiction to the brain removed, heart left in place

0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 2>generalization I heard when I was growing up, this mummy

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 2>is exactly the opposite. Analysis of CT scans by the

0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.000
<v Speaker 2>researchers found that the embalmers in this case they worked

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.840
<v Speaker 2>by making an incision in the perineum and then through

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.800
<v Speaker 2>here they removed the intestines, the stomach, the liver, and

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 2>the heart. Heart came out too. So after all these

0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 2>organs were removed, they lined the incision that they had

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 2>made with resin and linen cloth, and then they placed

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>a couple of plaques on this woman's body, on the skin,

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>over the stomach and over the sternum, and to read

0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.560
<v Speaker 2>from Jeres's summary quote, something that may have been intended

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.120
<v Speaker 2>to ritually heal the damage the embalmers had done and

0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.760
<v Speaker 2>act as a replacement of sorts for removed heart. And

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 2>this would not be the only example in ancient Egyptian

0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.959
<v Speaker 2>emvolving practices where the heart was taken out and something

0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 2>else was put in there, seemingly in its place or

0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:16.399
<v Speaker 2>to replace it. I'll mention another couple of examples of

0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.639
<v Speaker 2>that in a minute. But after this, her body was

0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 2>treated with spices and with lichen covering I think her

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.480
<v Speaker 2>head and her upper body, and she was wrapped and

0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.920
<v Speaker 2>buried somewhere near Luxor. At the time of this article,

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:32.639
<v Speaker 2>by the way, the mummy was in the collection of

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the Red Path Museum at McGill University in Montreal. But anyway,

0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.199
<v Speaker 2>this raises an interesting question if the heart was so

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 2>important in Egyptian religion, that so important that for a

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>long time, people assumed it was always left in place

0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.880
<v Speaker 2>when bodies were mummified. What was happening in the cases

0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.960
<v Speaker 2>where it actually was removed and how common was that? Well,

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.640
<v Speaker 2>to quote a profane named Andrew Wade from Master University

0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.720
<v Speaker 2>who's the author of another piece I'm going to look

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.800
<v Speaker 2>at in a minute, Wade says, quote, we don't really

0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.400
<v Speaker 2>know what's happening to the hearts that are removed. So

0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.920
<v Speaker 2>it's assumed that, as you alluded to a minute ago, robed,

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.040
<v Speaker 2>they were usually when they were removed, they were put

0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 2>into canopic jars, which we know we're used to hold

0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.639
<v Speaker 2>internal organs removed from other mummies, but that's not always

0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.720
<v Speaker 2>known for sure. So sometimes we just don't know what

0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.919
<v Speaker 2>happened to the heart. And there's still the question of

0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.320
<v Speaker 2>why why did they do this? Well, we don't know,

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.879
<v Speaker 2>but the authors of the ct study speculate that perhaps

0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the two plaques on her abdomen and her sternum were

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.800
<v Speaker 2>meant as a kind of healing or a replacement for

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.679
<v Speaker 2>the wounds inflicted by the embalming process itself. Like, okay,

0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.439
<v Speaker 2>we had to cut a hole in your body in

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 2>order to process your body for burial, So here's a

0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:57.080
<v Speaker 2>plaster healing symbol to counteract that incision. And then perhaps

0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the plaque on the sternum was somehow a replacement for

0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the missing heart, But again we don't know for sure,

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and we don't know why the heart was removed. But

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.600
<v Speaker 2>I came across another piece that has some interesting thoughts

0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 2>about this. So for a more general look at the

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 2>treatment of the heart in Egyptian mummification, I was looking at.

0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't think this is a paper in an academic journal.

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.959
<v Speaker 2>I think this is a fact sheet from a presentation

0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.240
<v Speaker 2>at an academic conference that was put together by a

0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.600
<v Speaker 2>couple of experts, by Andrew D. Wade and Andrew J. Nelson.

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I know that one of the two authors here, Wade,

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.719
<v Speaker 2>was the one who was quoted in that article we

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.520
<v Speaker 2>were just talking about. So the authors of this presentation

0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.480
<v Speaker 2>here say that many generalizations made these days about the

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 2>treatment of the heart in Egyptian mummification are based not

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.200
<v Speaker 2>on modern empirical research, but rather on accounts given by

0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:57.480
<v Speaker 2>classical authors. So if we are going to use literary evidence,

0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.800
<v Speaker 2>evidence from ancient texts for what these funeral practices were,

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:04.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, it would be really good to have a

0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of direct Egyptian accounts, and we have some Egyptian

0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.800
<v Speaker 2>accounts about beliefs about funeral practices and the afterlife, but

0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>instead a lot of the literary evidence we use is

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.040
<v Speaker 2>mostly in Greek and Roman texts from authors like Herodotus

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 2>and Plutarch, And in fact, they say, the only author

0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.280
<v Speaker 2>specifically mentioning the heart as opposed to making more general

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 2>statements about what is done with the organs during mummification

0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:35.000
<v Speaker 2>is the Ptolemaic period Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who writes

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.119
<v Speaker 2>as follows quote, when they have gathered to treat the

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.000
<v Speaker 2>body after it has been slit open, one of them

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.879
<v Speaker 2>thrusts his hand through the opening in the corpse into

0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 2>the trunk and extracts everything but the kidneys and the heart,

0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and another one cleanses each of the viscera, washing them

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>in palm wine and spices. So based on this we've

0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 2>got Diodorus here saying that the heart is always left

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 2>in place. But of course, remember he was Ptolemaic period,

0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.360
<v Speaker 2>and this is one author. And this presentation I looked

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.640
<v Speaker 2>at was designed to compare those literary accounts of heart

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>treatment to evidence again from CT scans or from mummies

0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>that have actually been empirically taken apart and described in

0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the scientific literature. So we looked to see what was

0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.160
<v Speaker 2>left in them. And they say there are three basic

0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.199
<v Speaker 2>patterns of heart treatment and mummies. One is retention, so

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.679
<v Speaker 2>the heart stays in the chest even if other organs

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.040
<v Speaker 2>are removed. Number two is removal, the heart is taken

0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.560
<v Speaker 2>out of the body. And number three is replacement, where

0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.760
<v Speaker 2>the heart is removed and something symbolic is left in

0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.359
<v Speaker 2>its place, generally something called a heart scaub, which is

0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 2>a type of amulet. So how do the empirical finding

0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.840
<v Speaker 2>stack up the author's write quote the heart was noted

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 2>as intact in only twenty one of eighty individuals, where

0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.280
<v Speaker 2>this organ's disposition was recorded in barely more than a

0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.359
<v Speaker 2>quarter of the individuals, and this sample was the heart

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.960
<v Speaker 2>retained in situ. In only one case was the heart

0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.600
<v Speaker 2>possibly sewn back into place, and in one other case

0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 2>was a heart scare of a present presumably to replace

0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.120
<v Speaker 2>the removed heart. And so rob you can see I've

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>included a chart from their presentation below where you can

0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.919
<v Speaker 2>look at the trends where these are not percentages, but

0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.360
<v Speaker 2>these are absolute numbers. Of examples from these different periods,

0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.919
<v Speaker 2>and you can see that heart retention predominates in the

0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.919
<v Speaker 2>small number of samples of mummies we have from the

0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.159
<v Speaker 2>Middle and New Kingdoms. But then as time goes on,

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.400
<v Speaker 2>heart retention is outnumbered by heart removals in the Third

0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 2>Intermediate Period, the Late Period, and the Ptolemaic and Roman periods. So,

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 2>in the words of the authors quote, mummies were increasingly

0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.120
<v Speaker 2>absent their hearts from the New Kingdom onward. As time

0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.200
<v Speaker 2>goes on, more and more of the mummies we find

0:22:56.280 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 2>have their hearts removed, and so the authors conclude to quote,

0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:05.400
<v Speaker 2>the stereotype of universal heart retention or replacement on accidental

0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 2>removal is far from the truth. The heart was uncommonly

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.879
<v Speaker 2>retained in situ and rarely returned or replaced by a

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.880
<v Speaker 2>heart scare up. The hypothesis constructed from the stereotyped account

0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.159
<v Speaker 2>by Diodorus is therefore falsified by these data.

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Interesting. Interesting, yeah, Now also worth just driving home though,

0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.280
<v Speaker 1>that this is all separate, of course, from the purely

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 1>sort of mythological situation in which the heart is weighed

0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.679
<v Speaker 1>that's taking place in another realm, that is not taking

0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:36.919
<v Speaker 1>place in the physical world.

0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, this is a study about what happened to the bodies,

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.560
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily about what the people in question believed about

0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:44.920
<v Speaker 2>what was happening in the afterlife.

0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, And though of it's also worth driving home that

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.560
<v Speaker 1>also with belief, especially when we're talking about ancient Egypt. Again,

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:55.040
<v Speaker 1>like you said, we're talking about a very long period

0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:59.879
<v Speaker 1>of time in which practices change, but also beliefs also change.

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.000
<v Speaker 1>So it's hard to just you can't just sum everything

0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 1>up and like say a pamphlet about like here's what

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.400
<v Speaker 1>the ancient Egyptians believed or did, because you're covering such

0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:10.840
<v Speaker 1>a broad period of time.

0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Correct, And this is the point the authors here are making.

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.199
<v Speaker 2>They use this as evidence that the classical descriptions of

0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:22.600
<v Speaker 2>Egyptian mummification by like Greek and Latin authors should only

0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.639
<v Speaker 2>be used, as they say, at best quote a possible

0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 2>snapshot of mummification performed by one particular workshop unquote, and

0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.120
<v Speaker 2>not like an adequate description of universal practices or even

0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 2>of the most common practices across time and space. So

0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:43.400
<v Speaker 2>but I still had the question about like why, though,

0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:45.840
<v Speaker 2>is there any clue as to why this difference that

0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:48.959
<v Speaker 2>in some cases the heart is retained in other cases

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:52.800
<v Speaker 2>the heart is removed, and are there any trends in

0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:56.399
<v Speaker 2>like whose hearts were removed and whose were left in place.

0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.400
<v Speaker 2>The authors do offer a bit of speculation here that,

0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, interestingly and the mummies available to us, there

0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 2>seems to be a somewhat of a correlation with access

0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 2>to mummification by different classes. So in the New Kingdom

0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>there essentially was a process of democratization of mummification. Previously,

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:24.160
<v Speaker 2>mummification had been an incredibly exclusive right which was only

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:27.680
<v Speaker 2>available to you know, the top top elites. But then

0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:31.720
<v Speaker 2>they say quote as time progressed, the nobles gained increasing

0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:37.040
<v Speaker 2>access to mummification and retained their hearts. With the democratization

0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>of mummification, however, the commoners being mummified were not receiving

0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 2>the same treatment, possibly to ensure that the elite maintained

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:50.040
<v Speaker 2>a more favorable afterlife than their subjects.

0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, that went in a different direction than I

0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:54.879
<v Speaker 1>was expecting. I thought it would just maybe be like, well,

0:25:54.920 --> 0:25:58.440
<v Speaker 1>this is this is a premium service for premium customers.

0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:01.480
<v Speaker 1>We can't offer the same level of mummification services for

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.160
<v Speaker 1>a lesser price. But it seems like it also could

0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:07.359
<v Speaker 1>be ensuring the status quo in the afterlife.

0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:09.679
<v Speaker 2>It could be because I mean, so I don't know

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.440
<v Speaker 2>how it would necessarily be cheaper to remove the heart

0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:15.320
<v Speaker 2>than not remove the heart, you know, like it just

0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:18.440
<v Speaker 2>in terms of the actual cost in the like labor

0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:22.639
<v Speaker 2>to the embalmers. So yeah, it could be a deliberate

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:28.520
<v Speaker 2>choice to sort of create an artificial tiered system for

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 2>quality of mummification and make sure, well, there's a really

0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.959
<v Speaker 2>special kind of mummification where your heart stays in and

0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:37.720
<v Speaker 2>that's only available to the elites. But we don't know

0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.439
<v Speaker 2>that for sure. I want to be very clear, we

0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:42.960
<v Speaker 2>don't know the reasoning. But that is an interesting, plausible

0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:46.960
<v Speaker 2>scenario that it's like it was in order to create

0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:51.440
<v Speaker 2>a kind of elite or premium tiered type of mummification

0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:56.560
<v Speaker 2>at a time when more people were getting mummification at all. Fascinating,

0:26:57.000 --> 0:26:58.680
<v Speaker 2>But we don't know for sure, and so I think

0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:01.560
<v Speaker 2>this remains a really tristing question I would love to

0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>know more of someone can have more evidence to shed

0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.719
<v Speaker 2>direct light on why this difference emerged.

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, another scenario of heart removal that's rather different in

0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:26.000
<v Speaker 1>many respects, but one that probably instantly comes to many

0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:29.560
<v Speaker 1>people's minds that I want to discuss is the ritual

0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:34.040
<v Speaker 1>removal of human hearts by the Mayans and the Aztecs,

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.720
<v Speaker 1>but especially for research purposes here the Mayans, so the

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.520
<v Speaker 1>ancient Mayans are known to have performed human sacrifices involving

0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 1>the removal of the heart, though not in the post

0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:52.160
<v Speaker 1>mortem sense, the removal of the heart essentially via ritualistic sacrifice,

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:57.560
<v Speaker 1>ritualistic execution. You could think of it as vivisection or

0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:01.560
<v Speaker 1>just or even death by heart removal, I imagine. One

0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:04.440
<v Speaker 1>article I was reading on the topic was Procedures in

0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Human Heart Extraction and Ritual Meaning by Tesler and Chuchina,

0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:12.760
<v Speaker 1>published in Latin American Antiquity in two thousand and six,

0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 1>And as you can tell by the title, this is

0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:19.160
<v Speaker 1>a paper that deals predominantly with the procedures. How were

0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:23.640
<v Speaker 1>they carrying this out? Not so much, you know, the whys.

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.240
<v Speaker 1>We'll get into some of the whys. But essentially these

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:30.959
<v Speaker 1>were religious practices. But I was not aware that there

0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:34.240
<v Speaker 1>was There's been so much, so much discussion and attempts

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:37.840
<v Speaker 1>to understand exactly how the heart was removed. So they

0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>looked at skeletal remains, a suspected heart removal human sacrifice cases,

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:46.480
<v Speaker 1>and contended that the sacrificers would carry these procedures out

0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:50.520
<v Speaker 1>by quote a trans diaphragmatic And I had to look

0:28:50.560 --> 0:28:55.200
<v Speaker 1>that up. Webster says, use the hard G on trans diaphragmatic.

0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:59.320
<v Speaker 1>So I'm going with what Webster's saying in this case,

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.760
<v Speaker 1>the definition being occurring, passing, or performed through the diaphragm.

0:29:04.080 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 1>You mean the diaphragum, Yes, the diaphragm. And so this

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.440
<v Speaker 1>would yeah opening immediately below the rib cage, and this

0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:15.320
<v Speaker 1>would help ensure rapid removal of the heart. And this

0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 1>is where they get into their going up against some

0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:22.800
<v Speaker 1>previous theories about how they carried this out. In particular,

0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:26.280
<v Speaker 1>there was an eight to ten minute procedure estimate by

0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Robesik and Hales in nineteen eighty four. These authors had

0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:34.240
<v Speaker 1>argued that the sacrificer would have cut through the thorax

0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 1>from side to side, collapsing the lung in the process.

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:40.600
<v Speaker 1>This would make the victim unconscious within three to four

0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:43.160
<v Speaker 1>minutes and allow the rest of the surgery to proceed

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:45.760
<v Speaker 1>without struggle. And they do kind of frame it as

0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:50.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of a surgery the section with heart removal occurring

0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:52.600
<v Speaker 1>while the heart was still palpitating, which seemed to be

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 1>the desired effect to pull the heart out while the

0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:59.640
<v Speaker 1>heart seems to still have life in it. Another analysis

0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 1>from Gonzales Torres argued as well for a below the

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:07.600
<v Speaker 1>ribs approach, but stressed that the exact style may have

0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:10.720
<v Speaker 1>varied from region to region. So again we get into

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:16.440
<v Speaker 1>a similar situation with mummification. Just because one mummification lab

0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:18.479
<v Speaker 1>was doing it one way doesn't mean they were doing

0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:20.280
<v Speaker 1>it the same way at another lab at another time.

0:30:20.360 --> 0:30:24.920
<v Speaker 1>And likewise, the way hearts were removed via blood ritual

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.600
<v Speaker 1>blood sacrifice in one instance, it might be different in another,

0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, different styles for different sacrificers, or some sort

0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:36.720
<v Speaker 1>of evolution of style Tesla and Chacina. Meanwhile, right quote.

0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:40.400
<v Speaker 1>It must be underlined in this context that ritual heart

0:30:40.440 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 1>removal entailed a violent vivisection of a struggling victim, and

0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:49.800
<v Speaker 1>was therefore quicker and fundamentally distinctive from the cautious procedures

0:30:49.840 --> 0:30:54.800
<v Speaker 1>implied in a quote unquote surgical operation as visualized by

0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Rubiesack and Hales. Now, the sacrificial victims in these situations

0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:03.360
<v Speaker 1>were typically enslaved people, sometimes children or prisoners of war

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:07.880
<v Speaker 1>who were I'm reading that they were often either painted

0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:11.440
<v Speaker 1>blue first or pelted with arrows, and once the heart

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:15.880
<v Speaker 1>was removed, its blood was generally used to smear or

0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:19.680
<v Speaker 1>anoint some sort of divine icon or some sort of structure,

0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing.

0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Now, as sacrifices, these would have had a religious significance.

0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Is the significance of the act better understood than maybe

0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the significance of the removal or non removal of the

0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:33.520
<v Speaker 2>heart in the Egyptian example?

0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 1>I believe so, based on the work I was looking at.

0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:41.800
<v Speaker 1>There's a paper here by Tesler and Oliver in Open

0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Caskets and Broken Hearts, great title from a twenty twenty

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>edition of Current Anthropology, and the authors here are right

0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:54.800
<v Speaker 1>that the quote partitioning and the liberation of vitalizing matter,

0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:59.920
<v Speaker 1>namely the heart and blood, fed specific sacred forces during

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 1>divine cult and mythic reenactment. They also provide a note

0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:08.040
<v Speaker 1>on Aztec sacrifices quote. As for the Aztecs, we conclude

0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:11.760
<v Speaker 1>that different trunk opening procedures were practiced as part of

0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 1>ritual sequences that in each case enabled access to the

0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>cosmic sacred mountain with its vivifying essences. So in other words,

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:24.640
<v Speaker 1>hearts and blood were essentially food for gods of the

0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:27.800
<v Speaker 1>sun and gods of the earth, deities who in turn

0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:31.240
<v Speaker 1>sacrificed or were in turn, or you could say, originally

0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:36.040
<v Speaker 1>sacrificed something to create the universe. And the sacrifices here

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:39.920
<v Speaker 1>were acts of the actual blood ritual sacrifices, not the

0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:45.760
<v Speaker 1>mythological sacrifices, were acts of quote, obligation, reciprocation, and reenactment.

0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:48.600
<v Speaker 1>So there are several different things going on there, Like

0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 1>there's a sort of a mythic understanding of what the

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:54.280
<v Speaker 1>heart and the blood is. There's this reenactment of things

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>that occurred in sacred time, the idea that there was

0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:01.720
<v Speaker 1>some sort of blood ritual and sacrifice that occurred with

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:06.080
<v Speaker 1>mythological beings, and the thing that is taking place in

0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 1>the sacrifice is important insofar as it is re enacting

0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:14.320
<v Speaker 1>this mythic incident. And there's this also, you know, basically,

0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:18.120
<v Speaker 1>like what we sort of generalize about sacrifice, something is

0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:21.280
<v Speaker 1>offered up so that something else may be offered down

0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:25.080
<v Speaker 1>to us as humans. They also mentioned in this article

0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:28.080
<v Speaker 1>that while the under the rib technique does seem more common,

0:33:28.080 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 1>and I believe This is a slightly later work. There

0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:34.360
<v Speaker 1>are three distinct tactics that were used. There's cutting directly

0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:38.280
<v Speaker 1>under the ribs, there's making an incision between two ribs,

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and then there's horizontally severing the sternum in order to

0:33:42.040 --> 0:33:45.000
<v Speaker 1>access the heart. But again it seems like going under

0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:49.640
<v Speaker 1>the ribs was the most common technique. Now additionally and

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:51.880
<v Speaker 1>just sort of like trying to get into the whole,

0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:56.120
<v Speaker 1>like what did ancient people or in this case, what

0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 1>did the Mayans who are engaging in heart removal sacrifice?

0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:01.720
<v Speaker 1>What did they think of the heart? What other ideas

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:06.440
<v Speaker 1>we're going on regarding the center of our circulatory system.

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:09.520
<v Speaker 1>On this I found an interesting discussion of ideas concerning

0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the human body among the Satal people. The Adal people

0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:18.279
<v Speaker 1>are a Mayan people in southern Mexico. So in this

0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:22.920
<v Speaker 1>particular work, it is the Ethnophysiology of the Satal Maya

0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:27.640
<v Speaker 1>of the Highland Chapists by Cameron Lyttleton Adams. This was

0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>a Doctor's of Philosophy dissertation from the University of Georgia.

0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:34.160
<v Speaker 1>So I'm not going to get into everything that's discussed here,

0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:36.880
<v Speaker 1>and again this is not the Mayan people of old,

0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:42.480
<v Speaker 1>but contemporary Mayan peoples, but there are these interesting ideas

0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.120
<v Speaker 1>in their thinking about the connection of the heart to cognition,

0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:51.239
<v Speaker 1>not thinking with the heart instead of the brain, but

0:34:51.360 --> 0:34:53.799
<v Speaker 1>sort of thinking with it. So I found that kind

0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.399
<v Speaker 1>of interesting because there are some other instances we'll get

0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 1>into as well, in addition to the Egyptian model, where

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 1>this seems like maybe a modern twist on these older

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:06.360
<v Speaker 1>ideas of the heart being the center of thought, the

0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:09.600
<v Speaker 1>center of being. So maybe it's a situation where like

0:35:09.640 --> 0:35:11.719
<v Speaker 1>in the modern world, you know that the brain is

0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.920
<v Speaker 1>the center of cognition, but there's still the symbolic and

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:20.520
<v Speaker 1>metaphorical importance of the heart as being something vital to

0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:23.680
<v Speaker 1>who we are and having some sort of emotional connection

0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:27.040
<v Speaker 1>which I think we can all relate to that, especially

0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 1>on Valentine's to Day. We're so on Valentine's Day, we're

0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:32.440
<v Speaker 1>so steeped in this idea that, yeah, the heart is

0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:34.000
<v Speaker 1>not just a thing that pumps blood.

0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And there is to some degree some accuracy and

0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:40.880
<v Speaker 2>wisdom in that way of thinking. Because, of course, while

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I think it is quite clear that the brain is

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:47.400
<v Speaker 2>the necessary organ for cognition, like you couldn't have thinking

0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:51.000
<v Speaker 2>without the brain, that the rest of the body influences

0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>the thinking that happens in the brain, and the brain

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.800
<v Speaker 2>is not like a thing floating apart from the body.

0:35:57.120 --> 0:36:01.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, Adams has this wonderful little line in here

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:05.800
<v Speaker 1>I want to read. I found this very fascinating quote. Further,

0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:11.480
<v Speaker 1>health is referred to by the semantic pair walking and working,

0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:15.919
<v Speaker 1>and the heart is conceived of as a homunculous, an

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:20.360
<v Speaker 1>internal being that makes commands that must be obeyed. Now,

0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:22.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth or

0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:25.920
<v Speaker 1>visualizations in anyone else's worldview, so I don't think this

0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:28.880
<v Speaker 1>is supposed to literally be a homunculus or this idea

0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:31.399
<v Speaker 1>that like the heart, that in each of us there's

0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:35.640
<v Speaker 1>like a squat, little like tough, little like red flesh

0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 1>being that lives in the center of our chest and

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.680
<v Speaker 1>sort of, you know, puppet masters the rest of us.

0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.279
<v Speaker 1>It's more like an idea of like what's going on

0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:47.279
<v Speaker 1>in the heart versus what's going on on the outside.

0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 1>It's this is more metaphorical, but I think it's still

0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:53.840
<v Speaker 1>an intriguing idea. Well, and I could.

0:36:53.680 --> 0:36:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Be misunderstanding, but I kind of read that as it

0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:59.799
<v Speaker 2>sounds like it's suggesting the heart as a something that

0:36:59.880 --> 0:37:03.040
<v Speaker 2>is separate from the conscious mind but has desires of

0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>its own that must be obeyed.

0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair as well, though it

0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:10.000
<v Speaker 1>is it's hard for me to not just picture like

0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:12.640
<v Speaker 1>literal homunculus in the heart, but I know that's not

0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:16.240
<v Speaker 1>what the author is going for here. But it's interesting

0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 1>to think about all this. Like when we think about

0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:20.600
<v Speaker 1>heart and brain, we think, okay, brain is thought, heart

0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:22.960
<v Speaker 1>is his certain story system. But of course if we

0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:25.600
<v Speaker 1>know that the two need each other, like the brain

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:29.600
<v Speaker 1>cannot live independent of some sort of heart that is

0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:33.480
<v Speaker 1>doing the job of the heart, be that a transplanted

0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.040
<v Speaker 1>heart or an artificial heart, like that is a role

0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:37.840
<v Speaker 1>that has to be filled for the brain to do

0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:39.080
<v Speaker 1>its thing as well.

0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:42.480
<v Speaker 2>And that feedback from and input from the rest of

0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the body affects how the brain works. The r for

0:37:47.000 --> 0:37:49.840
<v Speaker 2>in incredibly mundane ways that you're familiar with, such as

0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.640
<v Speaker 2>like you think different when you're hungry, like when you're

0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:55.680
<v Speaker 2>getting feedback from your digestive system or something, or from

0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 2>your blood sugar. That's going to affect the way you

0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:00.560
<v Speaker 2>feel and the way you think. But it also in

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:04.239
<v Speaker 2>much subtler and stranger ways as well, that there's a

0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:09.080
<v Speaker 2>relationship between what's happening and say, your gut microbiome and

0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the way your brain works, and on and on.

0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:14.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And then of course there's the very simple

0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.520
<v Speaker 1>observation that, hey, when I am very excited, when I'm agitated,

0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:20.000
<v Speaker 1>my heart is beating faster, and when I'm very calm,

0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:23.040
<v Speaker 1>my heart is beating very slowly, and realizing that, yeah,

0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:25.919
<v Speaker 1>there are all these very observable connections between the way

0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:28.680
<v Speaker 1>that we you know, what's going on in our mind

0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:31.520
<v Speaker 1>and our being and what's going on seemingly in the

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:32.480
<v Speaker 1>center of our chest.

0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 2>All right, well, I think maybe we're going to have

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:37.680
<v Speaker 2>to call this episode there for part one, but we

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:40.520
<v Speaker 2>will be back in part two to discuss more heart

0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.480
<v Speaker 2>removal traditions and thoughts about heart removal from the point

0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:50.840
<v Speaker 2>of view of other cultures. In Norse traditions, in medieval Christianity,

0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:54.880
<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about boiling some crusaders. It's going

0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:55.400
<v Speaker 2>to be fun.

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, there will be more human sacrifice, there will be

0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:03.160
<v Speaker 1>more heart removed, and much more. So. Be sure to

0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:07.040
<v Speaker 1>check back in on Thursday as we continue our special

0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Valentine's Day celebration of the removed Heart. In the meantime,

0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:14.240
<v Speaker 1>if you would like to listen to other episodes Stuff

0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:16.480
<v Speaker 1>to Blow your Mind, well you will find them all

0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:20.120
<v Speaker 1>in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. We

0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:22.880
<v Speaker 1>have our core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays

0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:27.920
<v Speaker 1>we do a listener mail episode. On Wednesdays the normal schedules,

0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:31.840
<v Speaker 1>we do a short form Monster Factor or Artifact episode,

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:34.279
<v Speaker 1>and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:37.360
<v Speaker 1>do an episode of Weird House Cinema. That's where really

0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:39.640
<v Speaker 1>most of the heart ripping takes place on this show.

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<v Speaker 2>Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

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<v Speaker 2>would like to get in touch with us with feedback

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<v Speaker 2>on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

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<v Speaker 2>for the future, or just to say hello, you can

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<v Speaker 2>email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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<v Speaker 2>dot com.

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<v Speaker 3>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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<v Speaker 3>more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 3>or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. H