1 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe. Wasn't thal So, Joe. 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: You know, I went to South Korea for the first 4 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: time a month or twear ago, I know, and I 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: was super jealous of it because you posted a bunch 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: of awesome food picks and it's just a place I've 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: always wanted to go, So thank you for rubbing it in. Yeah, 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I did eat a lot of Korean fried 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: chicken and I sort of I sort of regretted it afterwards, 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: but at the time it was a really good idea. Okay, 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: So what's the point. What do you try other than 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: other than reminding me that because of where you live, 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: you get to eat much better food than me all 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: the time, you're always posting about it. What is the 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: what else you're trying to tell me? Okay, Well, it 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: was my first time in South Korea, despite the fact 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: that I grew up in Asia and spent a lot 18 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: of time in the region, and I learned a lot 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: in just a few days in Soul and one of 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: the things I learned, and this, this probably won't come 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: as a surprise to anyone with the teenage kids, is 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: that K pop is really really big in South Korea. 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: I guess I'm not really surprised that it's really really 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: big in South Korea, but what I am struck by, 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: and it's one of these facets of modern pop culture 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 1: that I feel incredibly ignorant on. Obviously, as one gets older, 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: particularly when it relates to music, you sort of grow 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: more and more out of touch. But the degree to 29 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,279 Speaker 1: which K pop is this global phenomenon kind of blows 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: my mind. I saw there was like I think I 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: saw this, like there was like this piece on Axios 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: I saw a week or two ago. There's a band 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: called BTS right that they're really huge. Oh my gosh, Joe, Yes, 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: there is a band called BTS. They had a little 35 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: story about how any time and any news organization does 36 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: a piece on them, their traffic absolutely goes through the roof. 37 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: So a as an editor, I was like, Oh, we 38 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: should probably write more about them, be we should probably. 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad we're sort of hitting on this in the 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: podcast because maybe we can include it in the title 41 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: and maybe we could get tons of listeners from their 42 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: gigantic global fan base, like we deserve some of that 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: some of that traffic bump. Oh, you're so machiavellian about 44 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: this whole thing, Joe, so so listen. So I went 45 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: to Seoul, learned a lot about K pop and K culture, 46 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: came away with a minor addiction to a certain K drama, 47 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: and then I started encouraging everyone in our newsroom to 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: actually write more about this stuff. And I got a 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: little bit of a reputation for like, for being obsessed 50 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: with K pop. But the reason I'm obsessed with K 51 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: pop is not because of traffic, as you point out. 52 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: It's because there's actually a really interesting economics and market 53 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: story behind how K pop got so popular, both within 54 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: South Korea and globally. I'm really fascinated by this because, 55 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: even excluding K pop or Korea's cultural exports in general, 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: Korea has a history of sort of turning conventional wisdom, 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: particularly around economics, on its head, and so all of 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: the so called rules about how a country is supposed 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: to develop its economy tend to die when you look 60 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: at the Korean story of the country that's gotten very 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: rich by at every step of the way, flouting expectations 62 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: about how things are supposed to be done, how you 63 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: nurture a new industry, and so this idea of cultural 64 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: exports fitting into a sort of broader Korean story is 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: an incredibly fascinating one, right, And not just nurture any industry, right, 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about creative industries. So how does a country 67 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: or government actually go about encouraging people to be more creative? 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: That's what we're going to talk about today. So to 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: do that, we have the perfect person. She's a journalist 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: and the author of a book that I read a 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: few months before going to Soul. Her name is Uni Hong, 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: and the book is the Birth of Korea Cool, How 73 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: one nation is conquering the world through pop culture. So 74 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: really everything we were just talking about. Uni, It's so 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: nice to have you on the show. Hi, thanks for 76 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: having me. How are you good? Thanks? So, I guess 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: just to lay the groundwork, it might be nice for 78 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: you to give us an overview of where South Korea 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: was a few decades ago, because I think nowadays most 80 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: people are used to talking about it as this sort 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: of tech powerhouse, you know, Samsung manufacturing of a big 82 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: proportion of the world semiconductor chips. That's how most people 83 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: know it. But just a little while ago it wasn't 84 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: actually at anything close to that. Well, that's exactly right. 85 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: I mean, right after the Korean War which ended in 86 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, South Korea was actually one of the 87 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: poorest nations on the planet. It was poorer than most 88 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: of the South Saharan Africa uh and for decades it 89 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: was actually even poorer than North Korea. And that didn't 90 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: really change until the sixties when President Parkdung he, who 91 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: was the father of the former female president that was 92 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: his daughter Park but parked On, he had this policy 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: that basically was the birth of the birth of Korean cool, 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: if you want to put it that way, and he 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: was the guy who came up with the idea of 96 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: the Korean government cooperating closely with Korean private industry. So 97 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: Ever since then, the government has assisted in the ecosystem 98 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: that propped suth Chanday and Samsung and more recently, I 99 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: mean President Park has been did for a long time, 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: but his legacy continued well. Recently, the government is also 101 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: propping up K pop, uh and uh K dramas and 102 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: all of the what you would associate with the Korean 103 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: wave cultural products, including makeup and movies and even food. 104 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't even mention the face masks. I 105 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: should have mentioned I bought so many face masks and 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: soul so I made. I said at the beginning that 107 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: what I love about the Korean development story is the 108 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: degree to which it sort of flouts conventional wisdom about 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: how a country can develop. And I think that if 110 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: you talk to most Western economists, there's this view of, 111 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, open up free markets, don't try to pick 112 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: winners and losers within the economy, don't try to have 113 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: centralized planning of key industries. And as you mentioned, uh, 114 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: starting in the sixties, Korea's success and going from one 115 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: of the poorest countries in the world to one of 116 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: the richest countries in the world involved a heavy degree 117 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: of intertwinedness between the government and the private sector. Oh yes, 118 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: well that's spot on, Zo. And basically, South Korea is 119 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: the only capitalist country in the world that can, when 120 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: necessary behave like a command economy. So, for example, in 121 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: the US, you can't have President Trump forcing Apple to 122 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, stop making watches or that. You know, he 123 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: couldn't say to Jeff Bez I was, uh, you know, 124 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: I don't understand this throne thing. Can you please focus 125 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: on books or something like that. But in Korea, the 126 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: president and the government has always had the capacity to 127 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: do that, and it's not by coercion or force. It's 128 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: because Koreans on the whole belief that as the expression 129 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: goes a rising tide, boys all six. So that's the 130 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: rule breaking that you're referring to just now about how 131 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: they broke all the rules of capitalism. So with that 132 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: sort of basis in mind, you actually wrote in the 133 00:07:53,520 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: book that after the Asia financial crisis, South Korea made 134 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: some of its best decisions ever. Can you walk us 135 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: through that thought process and how they ultimately came to 136 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: the conclusion of, Hey, we're going to make a bunch 137 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: of cultural exports and make that a key part of 138 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: our economy, right exactly. I mean, um, most of Asia 139 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: wasn't horrible debt after that financial crisis, and Korea was 140 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: really hard hit, and it kind of doesn't make sense 141 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: that they would conclude from that that they should then 142 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: focus on popular culture. But the way that they got 143 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: to that thinking is the crisis made them realize that 144 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: they hit put too many eggs in one basket. And 145 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that Korea was so hard hit 146 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: economically is that their economy was overly dependent on the 147 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: large corporations, which they called TiVos, and these are the multinational, 148 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,359 Speaker 1: highly diversified companies like Ken, They, Samsung and ld Samsung 149 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: for example, I believe still makes up about twenty pent 150 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: of the GDP of South Korea. And after the financial crisis, 151 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: the Korean government realized this is way too much. There's 152 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: a way to us hanging on like two or three 153 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: companies and if they default, which is what happens in 154 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: a financial crisis, and the entire country this faults. And 155 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: they said, well, what can we do prevent this from 156 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: ever happening again? And what they came up with was, 157 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: we have to change gears to do something, but we 158 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: don't have to buy new equipment or machinery where we 159 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: can act on it pretty much right away. And they decided, okay, 160 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: that's gonna be a pop culture. The inspiration apparently was 161 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: Jurassic Park. There was actually a whole white paper presented 162 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: to the Korean government on Jurassic Park and how in 163 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: order to make the same proceeds as Jurassic Park, you'd 164 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: have to sell fifteen million ten day cars. And they 165 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: said we're in the wrong business. Well, I see what 166 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: you're saying. So Jurassic Park, the movie, the enterprise of 167 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: making Jurassic Park, not the enterprise of bringing dinosaurs to life, 168 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: was the inspiration. Well through that's happening too. I mean, 169 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: genetics is a big thing. But the basic gist is 170 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: cultural exports can be gigantic money makers and ultimately, if 171 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: you nail it, do not require a lot of capital, 172 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: so incredibly high margin. And so the basic idea is, 173 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: whether it's music, whether it's TV shows, whatever it is, 174 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: if you can find that secret sauce to replicate that, 175 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: that is an extraordinary efficient way to get in dollars 176 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: or money from the rest of the world. Yeah, that's 177 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: basically what it came down to. Low, low overhead, a 178 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: fast learning curve, and the rest is luck and hard work. 179 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: So what did they do to kick it off? I mean, 180 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: so it's like, Okay, the math makes a lot of sense, 181 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: We're going to make a fortune on cultural exports, but 182 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: how do you actually jump start that? What? How did 183 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: the plan take shape? Right? And the question that you're 184 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: probably thinking but haven't asked it is what were they thinking? 185 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: This is every thing? Well, the number one off obviously 186 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: that all Korean pulps. Top culture is in Korean and 187 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: it's only spoken in Korea. And uh what it started 188 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: with dramas. I mean, right now, it's the music that 189 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: gets all the attention, but the Korean waves started with 190 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: the soap operas. And what happened was in the ninety nineties, 191 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: the South Korean Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong tested 192 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: the waters and thought that it might be a good 193 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: time to experiment with showing a Korean drama in Chinese. Now, 194 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: I mean, now, there's so much med for k dramas, 195 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: but at the time, there was zero interest in it. 196 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: So they approached the Hong Kong TV networks and the 197 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: networks said, well, there's no audience for this, you know. 198 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: The Korean Chamber of Commerce said, well, we will pay 199 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: for the sun titling, we will pay for the dobbing, 200 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: we will pay for everything. And they said, okay, that's 201 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: just the production costs. You know, there's also the question 202 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: of advertising. So the Korean Chamber of Commerce said, okay, 203 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: well we'll take care of that. To all you have 204 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: to do is press play. So the Korean government basically 205 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: subsidized the translation of these of this drama into Cantonese 206 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: and also Mandarin, I think, and they sold all of 207 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: the ad times so that the Hong Kong TV network 208 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: would not have to do anything. And then, to everyone's surprise, 209 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: or at least some people's prize, the drama did really well. 210 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: And then the government started paying to translate more and 211 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: more and more dramas, and now it's sort of a 212 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: self feeding deaf. But the government never really completely got 213 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: hands off, and that's why the Korean waves didn't end, 214 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, ten years ago. Um, they're still paying to 215 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: translate them into languages that are more obscure because that 216 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: they sort of see these emerging markets as being extremely important. 217 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: So they're not just focusing on the languages that have 218 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: lots of speakers. They're focusing on areas where people will 219 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: someday be able to I Samsung phones and L the 220 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: TV and they'll already have built loyalty to the brand 221 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: that is Korea. So the culture, the cultural exports are 222 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: basically a sort of like first step towards other types 223 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: of exports. Is that the idea, Yeah, that's right. Actually, 224 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: it's not that the pop culture feed into industry or 225 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: that industry feed into pop culture. It's actually everything. At 226 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: the same time, it's considered to be a whole ecosystem. 227 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: So it's not that K pop is a delivery system 228 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: to sell phones. I mean that's also true, but the 229 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: phones are a delivery system to sell k pop, and 230 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: the makeup is the delivery system to still all of 231 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: the above. And it's kind of like a snake binding 232 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: its tail, which actually is sort of the business model 233 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: for the chip. But they have they don't have wholy 234 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: owned substidiary in Korea for these big companies. It's sort 235 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: of this company on its part of that company. If 236 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: you draw the structure, it's not a pyramid, it's a wheel. 237 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: And that's actually how the whole economy operates, and that 238 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: is how the whole Korean wave operates, in tandem with 239 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: the government, in tandem with heavy industry. So if you 240 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: think of it not as a pyramid but as a wheel, 241 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: I think it starts to make more sense. So I 242 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: have a question about how some of the cultural exports 243 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: play on the ground in South Korea, because I heard 244 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: when I was having lunch with some colleagues and Soul that, 245 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: for instance, BTS wasn't even considered that popular domestically until 246 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: they sort of enjoyed great international success and then they 247 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: were recognized as as a group that was doing something 248 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: for South Korea as a whole, and then they started 249 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: to get really big in South Korea itself. Is that 250 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: how these things generally happen. Mostly it's the other way around. 251 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: I would say BTS and Thigh, of course, are examples 252 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: of musical acts that we're not everyone's first choice when 253 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: they imagined what would be the breakthrough. One big surprise 254 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: to me and everyone else was that the acts that 255 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: became really popular were not the girl band because I 256 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: think that the Korean industry. I can't prove it, but 257 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm pretty for that they were angling to make the 258 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, the cute, sexy baby whoever, bubblegum pop girl band, 259 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: like you know, girls generation. I think I think that 260 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: that was what they were pushing for, like the the 261 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, the pussy Cats dolls, but minus ten years 262 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: or something. I thought they were not thinking that it 263 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: was the boy bands that we're going to be popular for. 264 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: So here's what I'm having a hard time wrapping my 265 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: head around. And I think your answer just now sort 266 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: of gets at it. You know, when you think about 267 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: like sort of developing a homegrown semiconductor industry allow the 268 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: growth of Samsung, you're like, okay, well, if the chips 269 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: are a very high quality and they're of competitive price, 270 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: someone's probably going to buy them. Like that's clear. If 271 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: you can show on the specs that the chip is 272 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: fast and you can make it cheaper than some competitor, 273 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: it'll sell internationally. With cultural exports, you know, there's no 274 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: way to be objectively sure that the taste is going 275 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: to connect. So I mean, you know, the big size 276 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: song that blew up, it could have just been a 277 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: novelty that people talked about for one day and then 278 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: moved on. Like there's nothing objective you could say, Okay, 279 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: this song is better than others, and this song deserves 280 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: to have major market share. Or as you pointed out, 281 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: maybe they thought the girl bands were gonna do better. 282 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: It turns out that it was the guy band. Beyond 283 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: even the language question, which is its own issue. Why 284 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: did they think their aesthetics would resonate and do well internationally? 285 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: I admit that that's kind of a black box, and 286 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: everyone anyone who says they know exactly how this happened 287 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: is actually just lying, because you know, the quest how 288 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: to make something viral is like how to make you 289 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: know the immortality pill. It's if everyone nobody really knows 290 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: for sure? How how did death Didymota become a millionaire 291 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: before she was twenty? If you if you said that 292 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: you knew that was going to happen, I don't believe you, right, 293 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: But I think that what they did have that was 294 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: going in their favorite is that it's sort of the 295 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: advantage of the underdog because South Korea has been as 296 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: they like to complain and or bragg they claim that 297 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: they have been invaded eight hundred times in their five 298 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: thousand year history, and that they have never attempted to 299 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: colonize anyone else. And they spent most of their history 300 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: being um ransacked by Mongols and Manturion and of course 301 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: there was a long period of colonization by the Japanese 302 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: and they didn't have any autonomy over their fate. Roosevelt 303 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: basically decided that Korean would go to Japan instead of Russia. 304 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: He signed this this tree d and names the hotel 305 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: somewhere and Rioms didn't even really know about it a 306 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: layer um and so obviously this is you know, sort 307 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: of getting kicked around a lot. I mean that that 308 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: happens to you kind of pay attention. It's a survival thing. 309 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: As a result of this underdog status, they had to 310 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: always pay visual attention into what was going on. So 311 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: for example, when they were a colony of Japan, they 312 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: couldn't just do whatever they wanted, but they also wanted 313 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: to retain some Korean autonomy, and in order to balance that, 314 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: they had to just pay attention to nuances, to reading 315 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: the room um on a global and national annox the 316 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: global scale. And that's what they did when they were 317 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: trying to develop these k pop songs and how could 318 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: we make this catchy? How could we make this global? 319 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: And they just I mean the answer is kind of boring. 320 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: They just studied. And there are books that I was 321 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: given published by the Ministry of Trade in various government 322 00:18:54,119 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: sponsoring industries explaining how to approach different cultures based on 323 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: their own local more So, for example, there was a 324 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: sext and on the Muslim world thing. So for example, 325 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: if you're going to air a drama in a prey 326 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: dra predominantly about the Mason, these are the times that 327 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: they pray so don't air it during those times. This 328 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: is rama done, so this is when they're eating some 329 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: you know, in the evening, so maybe it's not the 330 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: best time to premiere in evening drama. They're not gonna 331 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: show lots of kissing and stuff, so don't have any 332 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: of that. And they just make careful and careful, careful 333 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: studies of all of this in order to distill what 334 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: they what people wanted. And in the k dramas, the 335 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: formula is they realized that there was need for people 336 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: to feel things and actually have people crying a lot 337 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: and being really miserable and not everything having a happy ending, 338 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: and which is sort of the opposite of you know, 339 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: the Hollywood formula. And until the popularity of things like 340 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: cream dramas and also telenovelas, I guess most people didn't 341 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: realize that there was this yearning for stories that would 342 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: make people cry cathartically and you know, na every everything 343 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: being okay in the end. And with K pop, I 344 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: don't know if there's one formula, but they they just 345 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of buy things from different sources and they package 346 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: things extremely well. So you probably know that the world 347 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: songwriting factory is Sweden. Yeah, I mean, not just everyone 348 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: thinks ABBA, but I'm not talking ab. I'm talking about 349 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: people who write there like Britney Spears of most famous 350 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: hits and stuff wore they're they were They're all written 351 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: by Swedes, so Korea bibes the tunes from them, and 352 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: then they do the lyrics, like you stuff from somewhere else, 353 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: and they get choreographers from America or you know, the 354 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: French ballet or something, and you know, they're not afraid 355 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: to mix and match. They're not worried that this is 356 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: gonna look like a Frankenstein, you know, like piece together songs. 357 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: They're just like, no, no, this is gonna work. We're 358 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: just gonna do this. Yeah, the genus is in the packaging. 359 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: I would say people forget as well that before k pop, 360 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: there there was j pop, right, there was Japanese pop 361 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: in the indies which was incredibly popular. So it's not 362 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: like K pop came out of nowhere. There was a 363 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: little bit of inspiration, let's say, for it to graft 364 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: itself onto and then adapt. But that kind of brings 365 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: me to my next question, which is, I guess when 366 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: you're talking about creative industries, they're constantly changing and people 367 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: are constantly trying to one up each other, and recently 368 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: we've seen China in particular make a lot more effort at, 369 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: for instance, coming up with dramas. We've seen Netflix signed 370 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: some deals for for various Chinese dramas recently as well. 371 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: How long can Korea maintain its edge when it comes 372 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: to cultural exports. I don't know, and I don't think 373 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: it matters from their point of view because they're I mean, 374 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: just the Korean expert metal, extremely adaptable. And I don't 375 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: think that even they think that the Korean wave is 376 00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: gonna last forever. Historically, no music or pop cultureure and 377 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: really last that long unless you constantly constantly reinvent yourself, 378 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, like mcdonna or something. Um, I don't think 379 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: that they're counting on this to put bread at the 380 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: table for a very long time, if I'm honest. It's 381 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: just what they want to do now, and it's basically 382 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: about building Korea as a brand, not necessarily a K 383 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: pop or any of those things as a band. So, 384 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, if you wanted my honest opinion, I would 385 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: say it's probably gonna tie out. I mean, the creawave 386 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: is probably gonna die out. In terms of pop culture, 387 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: and the Korean industry will simply adapt whatever the next 388 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: need is. It's you know, it might be biomedical engineering, 389 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: and it might be continuing and entertainment, but focusing on technology. 390 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: I know that there's some government sponsored labs that are 391 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: trying to develop really hyper realistic hologram for example, so 392 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: like you know, it's like if you look behind the hologram, 393 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: you can see the person's back, and if you look 394 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: in front of the hologram, you see the front where 395 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: his current hologram technology, if you look to the side 396 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: of the hologram, you can't see anything. But so Korea 397 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: is trying to make fully three D holograms so that 398 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, not only can you have like Michael Jackson 399 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: appear from the dead as a hologram, but you can 400 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: also have a surgeon. You know, Mount Fine of Hospital 401 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: and new are demonstrate open heart surgery to people all 402 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: over the world via holograms, and you know they can 403 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: sort of it's almost like they're they're in there in 404 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: the room with him. So you know that maybe you know, 405 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: is less interesting to teenagers then BTS. But Korea will 406 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: will always be trying to reinvent themselves, and they don't 407 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: hold onto things. I think it's a very important national 408 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: chage in terms of their ability to adapt. Um. I'm 409 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: not talking up emotionally, I mean emotionally. They're really no 410 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: for holding on in terms of industry. If something doesn't work, 411 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: they're the first to abandon it and pretend it never happened. 412 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: Tracy mentioned in the intro issue just in soul and 413 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: had some great Korean fried chicken ten years ago. I'm 414 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: pretty sure I've never heard of Korean fried chicken, and 415 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: now I love it. And there's all kinds of change 416 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: that have opened up in New York City that sell 417 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: Korean fried chicken. Everyone I know like that. How much 418 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: has U This sort of the emergence of Korean food 419 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: internationally also been part of the same government effort. Well yeah, 420 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean people would be surprise to learn that I 421 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: think Korean food is good, and then when people try 422 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: it they often like it. But the fact before you 423 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: have people try, you have to have it available. The 424 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: supply has to be there, and that is where the 425 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: government steps. Then they put a lot of money to 426 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 1: sponsoring food fairs. A big program that they have is 427 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: these staff scholarships. I guess you could call them the 428 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: government sponsors international stuffs and not the state of one, 429 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: but of any level to come to Korea for free, 430 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: stay there for free, and learn Korean cooking techniques for free. 431 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: And the idea is not necessarily as they go back 432 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: to their home country and open a Korean restaurant. But 433 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: maybe you'll see Korean cold flaw or something or real 434 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: I state, but you know, a standard American restaurant quote unquote, 435 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: but with Kim t doue. And guess what, I've seen 436 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: all of these things, you know, And um that about 437 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: saying those stuffs actually went on these trips. But that 438 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that can only happen if 439 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: somebody is making it available to them. I have a 440 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: big picture question, which is how much of the sort 441 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: of special Korea economic model is replicable in other countries, 442 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: Like how much does the South Korea miracle, this idea 443 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: of cultural exports depend on the particular nature and structure 444 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: of Korean society or could any emerging market do what 445 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: South Korea essentially did well? That is sort of the 446 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: big question is that can you bob in stellds and 447 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: I mean I kind of to minds about that because, 448 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: on the one hand, if it were that easy, somebody 449 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: else would have done it already. You know, there are 450 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: plenty of underdeveloped countries that could have done this and 451 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: they didn't. But does this mean that only Korea could 452 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: ever do it? I mean probably not. What does make 453 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: them have an advantage that would make it hard for 454 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: other countries to do it is, as I said, they 455 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: have this hybrid capitalist command economy mentality. I'm not aware 456 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: of any other country that has that structure where the 457 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: government could state, Okay, we want a pop industry tomorrow, 458 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: so we're going to requisition funds immediately to build a stadium. 459 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean here, you'd have to have so many here 460 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: meeting the United States, you have to have so many 461 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: levels of approvals and vote and it goes to the 462 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: n e A and then you reply and it would 463 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: take you know, years, and then you have the requisitions 464 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: this fund and that fund in that license. And in 465 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: Korea it happens very very fast because industry and government 466 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: are in cooperation. Nobody else has that. I mean, China 467 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: has a command economy, but they don't have the cooperative spect. 468 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: It's just too big a country. It's centralized. They don't 469 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: all speak the same language, they're not all the same religion, 470 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: they're not even all the same ethnicity. Hind of the 471 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: country that would be most likely to do it, but 472 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: they can't for sort of the honest lack of you 473 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: know how much. So I have a related question, and 474 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: it gets back to what we were saying in the 475 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: very beginning about Korea having broken all the rules of development. 476 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons that people are economists in 477 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: particular are skeptical of centralized command decisions from the economy 478 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: is because they figure that bad actors or inefficient actors 479 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: will get propped up. Chrony is m essentially so maybe 480 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: some company gets big and it gets in with the government, 481 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: and even if their products start losing competitiveness, it doesn't 482 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: matter because there's so much corruption and there employ all 483 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: these people and they can't be let to die. And 484 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: one way that I know that Korea helped solve this 485 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: problem is by sort of using the export market as 486 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: the test. So the companies that thrived in export industries 487 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: were given more help, and companies that couldn't find a 488 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: compelling export markets they didn't get the same level of aid. 489 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: And so the export market was sort of used as 490 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: the ultimate test of who should get aid or who shouldn't. 491 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: And I'm curious about the cultural front, some of the 492 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: same tactics were used, so that whether it's directors of 493 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: soap operas or writers of songs, where's the kind of 494 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: thing where you nurture the winners and if they show 495 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: some formula to work, then they get more support. And 496 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: if a writer or director couldn't find make it click, 497 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: then they sort of over time didn't get the same 498 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: support from the state. Oh, I think it's absolutely a 499 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: rich get richer kind of situation. And what you're saying 500 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: is exactly right. They used the export figures as the 501 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: litmus test for the viability of something. Um, the country 502 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: is too small for them to rely on local consumption 503 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: cleric economy. They almost don't even care about that at all. 504 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: And like I said, because they're a small country, because 505 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: of their history, they've always been very, very very outwardly 506 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: focused for their survivals. So what you're saying is exactly right. 507 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Like if you can't make it outside Korea, you can't 508 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: make it in Korea, even if you are making it 509 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: in Korea kind of thing. All right, Well, Uni Hung, 510 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: the author of the birth of Korea. Cool. Thank you 511 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Thank you, and that was 512 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: really great. I really enjoyed it. Thank you was the 513 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: pleasure to be here. So Joe I found that conversation 514 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: really fascinating, not just because we got to talk about 515 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: pop culture for once on this show, but also because 516 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: it kind of it did put me in mind of 517 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: the conversation. Do you remember the one we had about 518 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: China made in initiative and whether or not China could 519 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: sort of encourage or sort of foster and innovation economy 520 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: when it came to tech. It reminded me a lot 521 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: of that. You know. What it reminded me of was 522 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: not that episode, but the one we did recently with 523 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: a Fottle kaboob about MMT within the emerging market context, 524 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: because so much of what he was saying was again 525 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff that like really flew in the 526 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: face of conventional wisdom about how a country developed, and 527 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: he was making the point He's like, Okay, first, absolutely, 528 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: you have to become food self sufficient and so forth. 529 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: And I just think that, like, there are so many 530 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: areas in which we accept conventional wisdom about economic development 531 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: or commerce, and one of them absolutely. I would have 532 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: never imagined that you could have sort of by design, 533 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: manufacture a successful cultural export category. And yet there you go, 534 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: Korea did it right. And if you think, like if 535 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: someone had written, you know, post the Asia financial crisis 536 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: in the late early two thousands, that South Korea was 537 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: trying to develop a cultural export economy because it was 538 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: trying to replicate the success of Jurassic Park, I think 539 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: there'd be plenty of people out there that would have 540 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: thought they were absolutely crazy for a number of reasons. No, 541 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's crazy. Like I listened to like a 542 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: BTS song this morning and I wasn't in English, and 543 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: your verdict, it just wouldn't never occurred to me that 544 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: that could be for the language reason alone. It would 545 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: not have occurred to me that it could be one 546 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: of the highest charting songs on Spotify's global hit list. 547 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: It just it boggles the mind that it's real, and 548 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: yet it is real, and all these other things that 549 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Korea has done aren't supposed to be how it's done, 550 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: and yet they continue to do it. So I just love, 551 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: like how many preconceived notion Korea is destroying. Yeah, alright, 552 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: So if there's one takeaway from this entire episode, it's 553 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: that K pop is a serious end economic matter, right, 554 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: and I hope BTS is millions and millions of fans. 555 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: I'll listen to this episode. Yes, BTS, BTS Army. Sign 556 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: up to odd Lots, subscribe on your choice of player. 557 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. 558 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 559 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me 560 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 1: on Twitter at the Stalwart. And you should follow our guests, 561 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: the author of Birth of Korean Cool, Uni Hong on Twitter, 562 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: She's at Uni and don't forget to follow our producers 563 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: Laura Carlson, She's at Laura M. Carlson. To for Foreheads 564 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: is at four Hest and the Bloomberg head of podcast, 565 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: Francesca Levy at Francesca Today. Thanks for listening.