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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuffworks

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we are bringing you some listener mail today. This is

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Speaker 1: gonna be our special Halloween Hangover edition. Uh normally these days,

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Speaker 1: I think we're trying to do about one listener mail

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Speaker 1: episode a month. We get a lot of great listener mail.

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Speaker 1: There's no way for us to read it all on

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Speaker 1: the show, but we've been trying to get more of

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Speaker 1: it featured on there without over listener mailing you. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, we got so much good stuff

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Speaker 1: this Halloween, and we're also trying to get through the

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving season right now that we thought we would bring

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Speaker 1: you a special two parter of all Halloween monster science

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Speaker 1: and the squirrels count as monster science. Yes they do. Yes, definitely,

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Speaker 1: we definitely have some squirrel content, some additional squirrel content

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Speaker 1: that I think stems from our our designated squirrel listrer

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Speaker 1: mail episode. So we're not going to make it a

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Speaker 1: thing of featuring uh you know, two part listener mails

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Speaker 1: going forward, but for Halloween, we'll do it. We'll do

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Speaker 1: it this once right, Plus, Carney has been mainlining horror

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Speaker 1: films about possessed technology and is exhibiting a number of

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Speaker 1: shocking symptoms. So hopefully this will help get the Halloween

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Speaker 1: bugs out of our trusted male robot. Have you noticed

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Speaker 1: how many of the normal kind of worrying gear grinding

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Speaker 1: sounds his servos usually make have been replaced by banshee moans.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And in fact, a haunted well girl climbs

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Speaker 1: out of his console like every fifteen minutes like clockwork.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where they're all going. The last time

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Speaker 1: I tried to boot him up, I got this ghost

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Speaker 1: has performed an illegal operation and must be exercised thing.

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Speaker 1: And so I don't know how you do, like if

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Speaker 1: they have an anti virus for that or what. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. We're just, like I said, We're gonna work

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Speaker 1: through it. Hopefully these episodes will take care of it.

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Speaker 1: A couple of the other things I want to point

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Speaker 1: out at the top of this episode. First of all,

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Speaker 1: if you go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com,

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Speaker 1: there'll be a store uh tab at the top that

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Speaker 1: goes to our t public store. And I am told

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Speaker 1: by the time you listen to this. We should have

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Speaker 1: some exciting new uh like Black Friday uh and holiday

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Speaker 1: designs in that store. I'm talking squirrel and Skug merchandise.

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Speaker 1: You've all been asking for it. It should be there. Look,

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Speaker 1: we've been asking for what we've been asking for too,

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Speaker 1: should be there. They should be bringing those designs. Huh. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I'm I'm also really excited about the prospect of

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Speaker 1: a special Christmas edition of the All Hail the Great

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Speaker 1: Basilist shirt because nothing says the Holidays like a little

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Speaker 1: uh information hazard. All I want for Christmas is to

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Speaker 1: be let out of this digital dungeon. Speaking of digital dungeon,

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Speaker 1: Joe and I have been hard at work on a

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Speaker 1: on a second series, a second House Stuff Works series

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Speaker 1: that should be publishing next month, That's right. Beginning in December,

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Speaker 1: Robert and I are going to be launching a brand

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Speaker 1: new show. We're bringing a lot of the same style, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, weirdness and approach that we bring to stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind, only we are going to be

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Speaker 1: applying it to inventions. That's right. The name of the

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Speaker 1: show is invention and uh. In each episode is going

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Speaker 1: to be just Joe and I talking about different key

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Speaker 1: inventions in human history, where they came from, who developed them,

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Speaker 1: who invented them, if there, if there is even a

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Speaker 1: singular inventor we can point to. One of the themes

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Speaker 1: of the show is going to be not just how

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Speaker 1: inventions are created, but how our technology changes us. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times, Uh, we don't think necessarily about the

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Speaker 1: the impact on human nature the different inventions have. That's right,

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Speaker 1: It's it's gonna be a fun show. And I think

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Speaker 1: if if everyone, everyone who enjoys stuff to bow your

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Speaker 1: mind is going to find something to love in this

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Speaker 1: one as well. It's currently slated to be uh, just

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Speaker 1: once a week, I think, on a Monday. So on

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Speaker 1: a Monday. Yeah, I believe it's gonna be that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. It's gonna be a Monday show. Start your

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Speaker 1: week with some invention. Of course you'll be hearing way

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Speaker 1: more about this, uh in the weeks ahead. Okay, should

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Speaker 1: we right into some Halloween listener mail? Yeah? Bring it

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Speaker 1: to us, Karney, Okay, I think we should start. We

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of great emails about our Jenny Green

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Speaker 1: Teeth episode. Of course, Jenny green Teeth is the spirit

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Speaker 1: that haunts the duck weed covered waters and pulls in

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Speaker 1: children to their drowning deaths. Now, we got a wonderful

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Speaker 1: email from our listener Jane, who linked me to probably

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Speaker 1: the best horror movie I've seen this year. And it

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Speaker 1: turns out it was a British public service announcement commercial.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, this is the one with Donald Pleasant's. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, I knew about this previously and I've just

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Speaker 1: completely forgotten about it. It didn't bring it up in

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Speaker 1: the Jenny Green Teeth episode at all, but I think

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Speaker 1: the guy who does the scarfolk uh stuff on the

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Speaker 1: web shared this on Twitter a few years ago and

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Speaker 1: I was just astounded by it. Well we should read

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Speaker 1: the email. Yeah, go for it, okay from Jane. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: I've just finished listening to your Jenny Green Teeth episode.

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Speaker 1: It made me think of a couple of things. First,

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Speaker 1: is a really famous ad in the UK or England

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Speaker 1: at least called the Spirit of Dark Water. I think

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Speaker 1: it's called I think it's called the Spirit of Dark

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Speaker 1: and Lonely Waters or something like that. Uh. Picking up,

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Speaker 1: she says it's from the seventies, I believe, and is

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Speaker 1: aimed at warning children away from standing water, much like

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Speaker 1: Jenny Green Teeth the spirit of dark water will take

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Speaker 1: reckless children and drown them. A primary difference is the

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Speaker 1: spirit is male and dressed more or less is the

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Speaker 1: grim reaper. You can finally add on YouTube. It's regularly

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Speaker 1: voted one of the scariest ads of all time. The

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Speaker 1: other is a tiny anecdote my mom forbade me from

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Speaker 1: wearing a green sash at my wedding as it's bad luck.

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Speaker 1: As far as I could tell, it's because it's the

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Speaker 1: color of fairies and you don't want those guys playing

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Speaker 1: tricks or even placing curses on your special day. Keep

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Speaker 1: up the good work. Jane from the South of England.

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Speaker 1: Can we just play a bit of that Spirit of

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Speaker 1: dark and Lonely Water ad? Oh, let's do. I am

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Speaker 1: the spirit of dark and lonely water, ready to trap

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Speaker 1: the nuary, the shell off the fool. And this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of place you'd expect to find me, But

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Speaker 1: no one expects to find me here and seems too ward,

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Speaker 1: But that call is deep. The boy is showing off.

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Speaker 1: The bank is slippery. The show offs are easy, but

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Speaker 1: the unwary ones are easier. Still, Miss Branch is weak, rotten.

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Speaker 1: It'll never take his way. Only a fool would ignore this.

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Speaker 1: But there's one born every minute. Under the water. There

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Speaker 1: are traps, old cars, bedsteads, weeds, hidden depths. It's the

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Speaker 1: perfect place for an accident. Why look, it's coming stick now.

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Speaker 1: Since children I have the power of them. Oh I might,

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Speaker 1: that's stupid life to swim. Hi, you haven't get that

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Speaker 1: things wing me? We did not feel called my animation

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Speaker 1: the back back. That ad is magical. It is just magical.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's taking this original idea of what horrors for,

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Speaker 1: you know, for warning the children away from the danger,

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Speaker 1: and and doing it quite literally. I mean, I feel

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Speaker 1: like there are a lot of p s as that

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Speaker 1: play on fear, but they don't play on it as

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Speaker 1: as explicitly in the sort of horror fiction realm as

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Speaker 1: this one does. Like it makes a monster. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's pretty great, and it's it's it is interesting to

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Speaker 1: see this as like a continuation of this, uh, this tradition,

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Speaker 1: this English tradition of of of pointing out and and

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Speaker 1: really embodying the fear associate ated with these these lonely ponds.

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Speaker 1: And Donald Pleasant's voice, it's so good, he just really

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Speaker 1: sells it could anybody else have done that. Maybe if

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Speaker 1: it had been narrated by uh like Christopher Lee, maybe yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think he could have voiced uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: malicious pond scum quite as well as Donald pleasants. That's yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's got Donald Pleasant's reedy voices, kind of like it

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Speaker 1: suggests things floating on stagnant water. Yeah, I'm not even

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Speaker 1: sure who you'd get to do it nowadays. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's some great British character actors. I'm sure they could

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Speaker 1: could have some fun with it, though. Is this an

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Speaker 1: Andy Circus kind of thing? I don't know, and Andy

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Speaker 1: Circus might lean into it a little bit too hard. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he'd overgone them it. Yeah, but but he's great, so

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Speaker 1: I put him on the list. All right. Here's another

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Speaker 1: one related to Jenny. This comes to us from Emma, Hi, Robert,

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Speaker 1: and Joe. I just listened to your episode about Jenny

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Speaker 1: Green Teeth and absolutely loved it. I'm actually in college

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Speaker 1: and writing a senior capstone about hags and witches from

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Speaker 1: different cultures, including j Any. That's how I came across

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Speaker 1: your podcast. I noticed a few really interesting things that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share with you. One is about the

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Speaker 1: song featured in that folklore article. Oh yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: song we talked about in the episode, just because there

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Speaker 1: was an article that mentions Jenny Green Teeth. But there

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Speaker 1: was some documenting of really grizzly folk ballads that children

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Speaker 1: were singing in the playground. This is the whole what

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Speaker 1: my my my mother she killed me and put me

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Speaker 1: in a pie and something like that. Yeah, so anyway,

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Speaker 1: she continues, it is very similar to the song featured

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Speaker 1: in the German grim fairy tale called Juniper Tree. It

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Speaker 1: goes my mother, she killed me, my father he ate me,

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Speaker 1: my sister, little mar Lynchen gathered together all my bones,

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Speaker 1: tied them in a silk handkerchief, laid them beneath the

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Speaker 1: juniper tree. Kai wit Kai wit. What a beautiful bird

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Speaker 1: am I? The story concludes with the bird's son dropping

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Speaker 1: a millstone upon the head of the mother, which reminded

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Speaker 1: me of the stone under which the bones are placed

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Speaker 1: in the song which you spoke, Oh yeah, they I

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Speaker 1: guess they got placed under a stone. I didn't remember

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Speaker 1: that part. There's a lot of desecration in that song.

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Speaker 1: It's she continues. You talked about the significance of the

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Speaker 1: humanized personified threat being female, and mentioned that it seemed

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Speaker 1: like a way to make it less threatening because one

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Speaker 1: might perceive a man is a greater threat. While I

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Speaker 1: totally agree with you that men traditionally would be seen

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Speaker 1: it to present greater danger. I also want to share

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Speaker 1: something I came across my research. Old women are often

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Speaker 1: the sources of evil in folklore and fairy tales because women,

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Speaker 1: in the form of mothers and witches hold quite significant

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Speaker 1: power over children. And she points to an NPR article

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Speaker 1: why are old women often the face of evil and

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Speaker 1: fairy tales and folklore? If I never read this before,

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Speaker 1: I know it's She says this basis its findings primarily

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Speaker 1: on the work of the famous critic Maria Totter, who

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Speaker 1: proclaims that the power held by mothers of her children

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Speaker 1: and the fears children have regarding mothers, like rejection or starvation,

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Speaker 1: are manifested like in Hansel and Gretel, the mother rejects

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Speaker 1: the children and the witch attempts to cannibalize them as

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Speaker 1: a manifestation of these anxieties. Yeah, I can see that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, a dangerous man is just sort of par

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Speaker 1: for the course, right, Is that really a monster that's

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Speaker 1: just sort of like what you might expect some strange

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Speaker 1: man to be. The dangerous woman is seen as a

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Speaker 1: more primordial perversion, right. Yeah. So she has a couple

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Speaker 1: of other bits on here that I'll respond to it

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Speaker 1: later because they involved some points who were brought up

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Speaker 1: by a number of different listeners. But she says, again,

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Speaker 1: I loved your podcast all the best. Himma, It's true.

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Speaker 1: I think we did kind of skip over the significance

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Speaker 1: of a female, which is to a certain extent in

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Speaker 1: that episode. But but that is something we have touched

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Speaker 1: on in the past, the inherently misogynistic principle that is

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Speaker 1: at play in any kind of witchcraft belief system. Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: It's also interesting to think about all this though, in

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Speaker 1: in terms of of what I understand to be the

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Speaker 1: uh SO some of the patterns of fear and fear

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Speaker 1: mongering in uh in Britain, especially in recent history, because

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Speaker 1: because certainly there was a there's a strong sense of

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Speaker 1: stranger danger that was promoted here in the United States

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Speaker 1: but also in the UK as well. Um, and of

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Speaker 1: course that tends to revolve around the fear of strange

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Speaker 1: men as opposed to strange women. Yeah. Um, yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is a I think a topic that that is probably

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Speaker 1: worth the exploring in greater detail. Uh. You know, just

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Speaker 1: like where do these where do these fears come from?

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Speaker 1: And then at what points are that the fires really stoked?

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Speaker 1: And then once they are ingrained in the culture, how

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Speaker 1: difficult is it to actually like bring them back down

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Speaker 1: to realistic levels. Yeah, and you definitely see these repeated

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Speaker 1: patterns of like flare ups about fears of child abductions.

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Speaker 1: You know, you see it going way back with the

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Speaker 1: idea of like the changeling legend, the idea that fairies

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Speaker 1: would kidnap your infant and take it away, or that uh,

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Speaker 1: or that witches might steal your infant and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you use its blood to oil its brew him or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But then later in in the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century you suddenly saw these flare ups of like grossly

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Speaker 1: exaggerated fears about the likelihood of children being abducted. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it feels the fears of pedophiles. I always come

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Speaker 1: back to Chris Morris's fabulous bit of satire on the

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Speaker 1: Brass Eye news television show that you put together. There

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Speaker 1: was one episode called pay to get in. That was

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Speaker 1: all they took, all the like the existing UH pedophile,

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Speaker 1: stranger danger fears that were that were present in uh

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Speaker 1: in in Britain at the time, like creating the idea

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Speaker 1: they're just creeps everywhere and if you take your eyes

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Speaker 1: off your child for one second, somebody will grab them, right,

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Speaker 1: and just just really turned everything up to eleven And

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Speaker 1: that episode, for instance, there's this one segment about how

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Speaker 1: a notorious pedophile is launched into space to keep him

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Speaker 1: from having access to children. But then UH, to everyone's horror,

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Speaker 1: they realized that they have accidentally included a child in

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Speaker 1: the space caps tool and now he has trapped with

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Speaker 1: the benefile in space. So it was the one thing

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Speaker 1: we didn't want to happen. That was a very controversial episode,

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Speaker 1: by the way, not everyone appreciated the humor. All right,

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Speaker 1: here's another bit of Jenny Green Teeth listener mail from Jamie. Hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: I listened to your Jenny Green Teeth episode and I

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Speaker 1: had a thought about why a danger like Jenny had

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Speaker 1: to be assigned to an already dangerous thing like a

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Speaker 1: pit of water. We asked this in the episode, right,

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Speaker 1: and they continue I think it may come from the

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Speaker 1: need to have an active danger for it to be

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Speaker 1: taken more seriously. A pit of water being dangerous relies

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Speaker 1: on me falling into it, whereas a monster can come

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Speaker 1: out and get you. I think we tend to think

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Speaker 1: of things we have control of. Is being less scary

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Speaker 1: than the unknown? Just a thought, love the show, Jamie

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Speaker 1: from Canada, Jamie, I think that is a great point,

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Speaker 1: and actually multiple listeners made that point. I thought maybe

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Speaker 1: we mentioned something like that in the episode, but multiple

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Speaker 1: people wrote in to tell us that, so I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe we didn't. I know one thing that I pondered

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Speaker 1: in the episode was that part, and I still think

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Speaker 1: this is definitely a part of it. Um is that

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Speaker 1: the idea of a monster, an imaginary creature, being a

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Speaker 1: threat to your own child is somehow less horrific and

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Speaker 1: easier for a parent to comprehend and and think about, uh,

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Speaker 1: compared to the idea of them accidentally drowning. Well, that

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Speaker 1: would be the psychological effect on the parent. UM, and

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Speaker 1: I guess you'd have a question over whether parents were

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Speaker 1: actually believing in Jenny Green teeth. I feel like that

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Speaker 1: would be probably less likely, right because it was the

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Speaker 1: nursery bogey. And yeah, and I think the nursery bogie

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Speaker 1: aspect of it would make it easier, like knowing that

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Speaker 1: it's made up, like hey, this thing that it's easier

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Speaker 1: for the parent to talk about, right, Like, I'm deeply

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Speaker 1: terrified of this and I need to impart some of

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Speaker 1: this terror to you. But if we if we put

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Speaker 1: this fabulous twist on it, then somehow it feels less

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Speaker 1: just so destroying to talk about it. And I and

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Speaker 1: like I said, I still think that's part of it.

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Speaker 1: But I also think everyone is is pretty spot on

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Speaker 1: with this this premise that by making it an active

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Speaker 1: threat yet it is making up for some short falls

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Speaker 1: inside that the child's threat analysis, you know, where they think, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's this cool little bog, I should walk right up

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Speaker 1: to it and throw sticks into it, throws rocks into it, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and they might not be able to realize, oh, those

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Speaker 1: rocks are really slippery, and I get up to get

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Speaker 1: too close, I'm likely going in. Or they're they're just overconfident.

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Speaker 1: Children often are, you know, children they feel like they're

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Speaker 1: invincible when they're under their own power. But you give

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Speaker 1: them a monster or something like that, and suddenly the

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Speaker 1: fear comes in right. Yeah, I mean I've watched my

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Speaker 1: my son busted enough times and slippery rocks and all

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Speaker 1: that that this makes instant sense to me. However, I

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Speaker 1: never made up a monster. Okay. This next one comes

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Speaker 1: from our listener, Kenna. Kenna writes, Dear Joe and Robert,

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Speaker 1: I just really listen to your Jinny Green Teeth episode,

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Speaker 1: and when you mentioned that duck weed itself was considered

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Speaker 1: to be the monster in some regions, I had to

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Speaker 1: write in I majored in environmental science in college, where

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Speaker 1: I learned that duckweed is highly invasive in North America.

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Speaker 1: It's known to choke bodies of water, shading out native

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Speaker 1: vegetation and leading to fish and invertebrate kills that allow

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Speaker 1: other invasive species to move in. It finds it easy

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Speaker 1: to gain a foothold in disturbed and man made waterways

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Speaker 1: where other species have been removed or haven't yet been introduced,

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Speaker 1: so it can easily overgrow and kill off wildlife even

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Speaker 1: in its native range. Observing periodic fish or arthropodic kills

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Speaker 1: when duckweed became too overgrown might have encouraged the Jenny

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Speaker 1: Green Teeth legend and made the water of the Marl

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Speaker 1: Pits seem more mysteriously deadly, with dangers more supernatural and

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Speaker 1: unexplainable than mirror drowning ps. I also just listened to

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Speaker 1: your Cambrian Explosion episode from the vault, and I've attached

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Speaker 1: photos of my most recent knitting project, a stuffed Anomala carress.

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Speaker 1: So good. It's such a cute creature. But I also

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Speaker 1: like that theory about the duckweed. I hadn't read anything

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, that's that's new to me. Who brought

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Speaker 1: Jenny over? That's the the open question that I have. Alright,

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Speaker 1: on that note, we're gonna take our first break here,

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Speaker 1: but when we come back, more Halloween listener mail and

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Speaker 1: more Jenny Green Teeth listener mail than all right, we're back,

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Speaker 1: all right. This one comes to us from Sean. Sean writes,

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Speaker 1: I just finished listening to your Jenny Green Teeth episode.

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Speaker 1: Excellent episode. Although I'm from England, I had only ever

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Speaker 1: heard of Grindy Lowe thanks to Harry Potter and other

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Speaker 1: fairy tales and legends were never relayed to me growing up,

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Speaker 1: perhaps because I grew up in the southeast and not

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Speaker 1: the North. While listening, I noticed a few similarities between

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Speaker 1: the legend in England and that of Niroro Kid who

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Speaker 1: in Indonesia where I now live. Like Jenny Green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: she has a water spirit who lures people in. However,

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Speaker 1: she primarily works in the sea, though sometimes in rivers.

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Speaker 1: Interesting her legend is particularly strong in the rough seas

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Speaker 1: of South Java, so you can see how she is

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Speaker 1: used as a precautionary tale. The beaches lining the southern

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Speaker 1: coast attract surfers nowadays due to their big waves. This

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Speaker 1: coast is also close to the Sondra Trench, making the

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Speaker 1: south coast vulnerable tusunamis. What struck me particularly is the

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Speaker 1: link to the color green. It is said that those

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Speaker 1: wearing green to beaches in the south of Java are

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Speaker 1: more likely to be lured into her traps to join

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Speaker 1: her underwater army. This is because green is her sacred

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Speaker 1: color and no others are allowed to wear it, much

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Speaker 1: like the fairies. Wow, I've never heard any of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: apparently there's a Wikipedia article about it because they included

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Speaker 1: a link. Uh. They continue love the podcast. I hope

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Speaker 1: you find this link as interesting as I did. I

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Speaker 1: look forward to more monsters over the next month. Well,

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Speaker 1: hopefully we were able to satisfy um in that in

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Speaker 1: that area. Now, I wonder if in this case with

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Speaker 1: Nai Orro cadul, if I'm saying that right, uh, is

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Speaker 1: is the green associated with the the monster or the

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Speaker 1: goddess or the demonist whatever because of the water instead

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Speaker 1: of being because of the plants. I don't know. It

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Speaker 1: certainly sounds like it's more of a purely like water

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Speaker 1: like and or river spirit as opposed to something that

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Speaker 1: is vegetative in nature. What is it in in folklore

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Speaker 1: with green and evil? It's so strange. I find green

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Speaker 1: the most positive and wonderful of all the colors. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this has been kind of a revelation to me. It's

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Speaker 1: it's made me rethink the green Night, the green Man,

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Speaker 1: all these various green entities, especially from from Western folklore.

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Speaker 1: You can definitely see it in like the green man

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Speaker 1: in the Green Night tradition, because I think they're the

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Speaker 1: green is associated with the forest and with nature, which

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Speaker 1: in a way is seen as almost like the enemy

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Speaker 1: of Christendom. If you think of, like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Christian civilized world in in medieval England is is where

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Speaker 1: goodness and order comes from that's like the town and

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Speaker 1: the authorities and the church and all that. And then

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Speaker 1: outside of that you have the wilderness, which is the

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Speaker 1: place of chaos and evil, and that's why it's green.

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Speaker 1: That that sort of makes sense, I think, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean this, this bears probably a further research, like at

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Speaker 1: what point did we decide the green means go, because

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Speaker 1: that seems to be one of the most I mean,

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Speaker 1: it sounds simple, but we see it everywhere like green

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Speaker 1: and red. In Western culture, red means stop, go back.

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Speaker 1: Green means yes, go forward, everything's good. I've mentioned on

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Speaker 1: the podcast before that I've read that that has to

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Speaker 1: be inverted or altered for say, Chinese audiences, where red

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Speaker 1: is held in such high esteem that the idea of

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Speaker 1: using red to signify in some cases something negative or

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Speaker 1: or secondary just simply doesn't work with with the predominant

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Speaker 1: color theory of the culture. Yeah. Um, yeah, I feel

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Speaker 1: like green should not mean go, it should mean relax, chill. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when the light turns green, that's when you sip. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's look at this next listener mail from Ross who writes, Hello,

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Speaker 1: Robert and Joe, I found your podcast last October and

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Speaker 1: you guys are on my regular rotation. I look forward

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Speaker 1: to my listening time every week. I love the Halloween

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Speaker 1: Monster specials and and I'm enjoying this year's series. I'm

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Speaker 1: writing this as I listened to Slayers on my lunch

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Speaker 1: break The Monster Slayer. Yes, I've been doing some illustrations

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Speaker 1: for a web comic series, and you guys have brought

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Speaker 1: up some awesome topics to explore. Anyway, I was so

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Speaker 1: inspired by Jenny Green Teeth when I listened that I

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Speaker 1: had to do an illustration and wanted to share it

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Speaker 1: with you. Best regards and thanks for making such an

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Speaker 1: awesome show. And Ross sent us this illustration, which I

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Speaker 1: think is fabulous. Great, we're across. Yeah, I'm gonna put

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Speaker 1: this on the landing page for this episode. It' stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind dot com? Did he give us permission?

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Speaker 1: Read all right? Yeah? Link back, so include a link

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Speaker 1: there so you can check out some of his other

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Speaker 1: work as well. It's all very impressive, but the mouth

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Speaker 1: of this Jenny Green Teeth that he created is just

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Speaker 1: absolutely horrifying. She's got kind of cat eyes and very

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Speaker 1: very smooth skin, big red lips, and instead of hair

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Speaker 1: sort of she has just the duck Weed. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's fabulous. Definitely check it out. Now. We heard

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Speaker 1: from a number of different listeners regarding a particular pop

427
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: culture incarnation of Jenny Green Teeth. Uh. We mentioned the

428
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: television series The Mighty Bush in that episode, but I

429
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: mainly talked about the Hitcher, which is this green character

430
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: that shows up. But there's another creature that shows up,

431
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: a creature called Old Greg. Okay, yes, were you familiar

432
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: with Old Greg? Yes? Years ago, I was showing this

433
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: sketch Old Greg. He likes Bailey's right, Bailey's And yeah,

434
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: he's like an underwater creature that kidnaps, uh, one of

435
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: the characters of The Mighty Bush. It was an episode

436
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: that I really loved back in the day, and so

437
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people pointed out and I have to

438
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: say that I intentionally left it out of the episode

439
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: because there's an element to the character where the character

440
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: has essentially there's a punch line about the character having

441
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: ambiguous genitalia, and I just wasn't sure that that was

442
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: really appropriate for everybody. Um, I guess since when I

443
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: originally I loved the episode when it came out, but

444
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: since then I read the book Middlesex, which is excellently

445
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: deals with a character who's born with ambiguous genitalia. Subsequently, too,

446
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: I've just I've I've learned more about it, and I

447
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: just didn't want it to be Um. I didn't. I

448
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: didn't want anybody's enjoyment of the episode to be taken

449
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: away because, uh, they themselves have have struggled with this,

450
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: or if they have, you know, children perhaps that have

451
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: ambiguous genitalia as well. So sorry to be kind of

452
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: a party pooper on that. No, I totally hear you.

453
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: That's worth mentioning. To be clear, I love the Mighty Bush.

454
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: Uh pretty much all the other episodes I can still

455
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: go back and appreciate without any qualms. Okay, I've got

456
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: to read this next listener mail from Rachel. Rachel writes

457
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: in about Jenny Green Teeth, saying I was just thinking

458
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: how much Jenny Green Teeth reminds me of Penny Wise,

459
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: the clown. Of course, I wonder if instead of inhabiting

460
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: the individual ponder bog maybe instead she lives in boggy

461
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: water systems and can travel through the underground waterways. Also,

462
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned she was often used to warn children away

463
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: from places or behaviors. Also, Bobba Yaga is used to

464
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: this end. I think Bobby Yoga is like a witch.

465
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: And would that be like Eastern European traditions Russian. I've

466
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: been saying it wrong my whole life. I always say,

467
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: Bobby Yaga, Oh that might be right. Yeah, I don't know.

468
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: It just rolls off my my tongue. But I love

469
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: the Bobby Iaga with her her one legged chicken house

470
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: and flying around and that what is she in like

471
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: a big a broom? Well she has, I think she

472
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: has a broom, but she rides in a like a

473
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: big bucket of some sort. Okay, maybe it's for the

474
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 1: grinding of wheat or something. You know. She's in that

475
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: Russo Finish Jack Frost movie that was on Mystery Science

476
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: Theater three thousand where they she had she had had

477
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: the chicken house. I believe. Yeah, I know it. Well.

478
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: I actually watched that episode every Thanksgiving relentlessly as my

479
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving thing. Yes, so good. I love that Rachel brought

480
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: up a Pennywise uh, particularly how Pennywise has that association

481
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: with like like a sewer drain, a storm drain situation.

482
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: We of course have those all over the place here

483
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and the whole time that I've had a child,

484
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: every time I have I am near one of those,

485
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: I feel like I clutched my hand his hand just

486
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: a little harder, because they tend to be sometimes you know,

487
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: they're they're more graded in control, but often they're just

488
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: like a gaping mouth, Uh that just seems to want

489
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: to small swallow children down into their their unknown depths.

490
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: You know, who knows how far that thing goes down,

491
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: who knows how much water is down there. It's just

492
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: so terrifying, uh that I wonder to what extent, Uh.

493
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: Stephen King kind of maybe he intentionally thought of all,

494
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: you know this when he was coming up with that

495
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: scene in it, uh, but perhaps it was kind of

496
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: an accidental uh incarnation of his own fears regarding his

497
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: children in storm drains. Oh yeah, I know, I've read

498
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: somewhere that part of his idea for the story of

499
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: it was that he wanted to write story sort of

500
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: like a troll character, like the troll under the bridge

501
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 1: and the three Billy goats gruff. Oh you know, I

502
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: wasn't I wasn't even thinking about that. But of course

503
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: you had the troll under the bridge is essentially a

504
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: Jenny Green teeth type monster as well, like this is

505
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: the hazard that lives beneath the bridge. Okay, well, I

506
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: think it is time to move on to some listener

507
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: mail we got about the episode we did on masks.

508
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: The killer's mask in reality and in fiction, what the

509
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: mask represents, why we have these masked killers? Uh, even

510
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: in horror fiction where like the killer's identity is not

511
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: particularly a secret or anything to be revealed. And so

512
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: we heard from several listeners about this. Robert, you want

513
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: to read one. Uh, sure, we have a big one

514
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: here from Jim, Jim who frequently writes into the show.

515
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Jim says, Robert and Joe, your mask villain. Episode got

516
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: me thinking about original mask in cinema. I thought of

517
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: several examples. W. D. Griffith's The Birth of a Nation

518
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: from nineteen fifteen features masks masked members of the k

519
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: k K. Although they were portrayed as heroes in this

520
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: film and historically masked. That is so weird that the KKK,

521
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously this evil terrorist organization. They think they're

522
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: the good guys, but they really dressed like bad guys.

523
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: It's like they're not even they're just like, let's look

524
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: like an evil cult. Yeah, evil buffoons basically. Uh. And

525
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: of course this picture, this picture was significant in that

526
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: had helped revive, unfortunately uh clukus Klan activities in the

527
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 1: United States. Jim continues, I don't know if it's the

528
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: first mask reveal, but the Phantom of the Opera from

529
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: with Lawn Cheney, The Man of a Thousand Faces, it's

530
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: the first one that comes to mind. The unmasking occurs

531
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: at forty five seconds in this short clip, and it

532
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: give us a short clip. And indeed, this was a

533
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: really I mean even today watching this unmasking scene, it's

534
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: pretty alarming. Uh, even if you haven't seen the film

535
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: in full, you've probably seen this clip before. It's the

536
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: original hockey mask off of Jason scene. Yeah, And indeed,

537
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: I think that isn't important to keep in mind when

538
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out what Jason's unmasking is about,

539
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,239
Speaker 1: Like we have here is here is this important, uh

540
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: her horrifying moment in horror film history that undoubtedly is

541
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: having some some influence over the way these other films

542
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: are are are paced out well. Part of the role

543
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: it seems to play in that Phantom of the Opera

544
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: scene is that it enrages him because, like he he

545
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be revealed, and when she sees his face,

546
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: he's horror. She's horrified, but also he's enraged, right, Jim continues, Finally,

547
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: there's a version of Robert's execution reality show on TV

548
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Did I propose an execution reality show?

549
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: I think maybe you did. Yeah, something like that would

550
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: function as a TV version of the guillotine public executions

551
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: or something to rest saying, oh, yeah, I think I

552
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: did do that, because we also brought up how Paris

553
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: Hilton died and that one wax horror movie wax Horror.

554
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: I for give which one it was. There's so many

555
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: wax films, Department of Wax, something like that. Uh, it continues.

556
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: It was a summer replacement named Who Done It. The

557
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: show had about ten contestants living in a mansion with

558
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: a spooky butler as the host. In the first episode,

559
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: when all of the contestants were checking out their new rooms,

560
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: one of them is quote unquote killed. The murderer left

561
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: a message too, and then he gives some bullet points

562
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: about how this went down. Contestants will search for clues

563
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: in the mansion in the grounds. These will lead to

564
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: clues about the murder. Uh, and there are more clues

565
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: than time for one person to find them. Also, you

566
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: probably want to work in teams, and at the end

567
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: of each show, each of you will in in individually

568
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: go to the library and present your theory on the

569
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: crime and the murder. The contestant who gets the fewest

570
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: facts correct becomes the next victim, and we'll be killed

571
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,959
Speaker 1: at the end of the show. And then the next

572
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: show starts with the investigation of that victim. You won't

573
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: know who got it until you come down for breakfast

574
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: and you'll realize who's missing. It's kind of like a

575
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: game of Werewolf, I guess. And to some extent, the

576
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: next show starts with the investigation of that victim, and

577
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: you already know the murderer since I'm one of you,

578
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: but I'm keeping up a secret. And basically this keeps

579
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: going on until he says, quote the last detective gets

580
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: the prize, which I think was fifty thou dollars and

581
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: maybe a hundred thousand dollars. Wait, So this would be

582
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: like if police departments around the country had like a

583
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: system where if a detective fails to solve a murder,

584
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: they get killed. I guess high stakes. Uh. He points

585
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: out that, uh, they created a crime scene for each victim.

586
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: ABC put out a press release that they really weren't

587
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: killing people and there was a mass killer among the group,

588
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: but it was the mask of anonymity. H. Then they

589
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: brought back the dead victim for the victims for the

590
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: finette finale, and uh, they were in their death apparel,

591
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: zombie like hanging out handing out clues to the finalist.

592
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: So this sounds like a fun show. I don't know

593
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: why it just completely evaporated. You can only make it

594
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: better by making it also a rockabilly musical. Jim shared

595
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: a little bit more about this this show, which which

596
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: sounds very interesting. I'm gonna look it up, presumably on YouTube.

597
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's not why Wow widely available. But he uh.

598
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: He caps it up by saying, quote, there was never

599
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: a second season, which disappointed me. It was a fun

600
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: summer replacement. It was a survivor like reality show and

601
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: no one had to eat anything gross. It was based

602
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: upon finding and understanding clues. Uh. They only had to

603
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: be willing to to fake their own deaths when eliminated,

604
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: they'll bring back a revival on Netflix. There'll be there

605
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: will be a season two. I feel like that the

606
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: concept sounds pretty solid. I I like, having not seen

607
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: it myself. I don't know how the execution uh pun

608
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: intended uh came out, but it sounds fun. Okay. This

609
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: next mail comes from our listener Mandy, also about the

610
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: Killer's Mask episode. And there was a part in that

611
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: that episode where I mentioned that it had never really

612
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: made sense to me the scene in the original Halloween, Robert,

613
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: you remember this where for a moment, Jamie Lee Curtis

614
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: pulls off Michael Myer's mask and there's just nothing to it,

615
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: Like he just looks like a guy. You know, he's

616
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: just some guy. And then he puts the mask back

617
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: on and then it's you know, and then the scene continues.

618
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: But I was always like, why did that happen? I

619
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: don't understand what the point was. Though I love the movie,

620
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm not ragging on it. Mandy writes in about that,

621
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: She says, Hey, y'all, I just finished listening to the

622
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: podcast about Masks in Horror Films. You said the scene

623
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: in the Original Halloween where Michael Myers mask comes off,

624
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to you. Maybe this will help. The

625
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: documentary Halloween The Inside Story points out that Michael Myers

626
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: is supposed to be and this is me semi paraphrasing

627
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: a devil with the face of an angel. So the

628
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: way I see that scene is like this. He's d masked,

629
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: but unlike so many other horror movie killers, we see

630
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: that he's not a horrible looking creature or disfigured man.

631
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: He looks just like a normal and frankly handsome young man.

632
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: But as Dr Loomis, of course that's Donald Pleasants says,

633
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: Michael Meyer has black eyes and there's nothing behind them,

634
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: so he's perhaps the most frightening type of killer, the

635
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: one who outwardly looks like anything but a grotesque monster,

636
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: but who's soulless inside, which is more horrifying than the

637
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: worst external disfigurement. Hope that helps. I'm actually the kind

638
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: of person who can't watch gory horror films because they

639
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: scare me and gross me out. But Halloween is a

640
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: favorite film of mine to me, the less blood and gore,

641
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: there isn't a scary movie, the more terrifying it is.

642
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: Burr Happy early Halloween. I guess that, well that was

643
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: before Halloween. Thank you so much, Mandy that I guess

644
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: that's some interesting insight. I don't recall him looking amazingly handsome.

645
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: He just looks like a guy. But well, you know,

646
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: with with with budget concerns, you can only get so

647
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: handsome an actor in there. They couldn't get David Hasselhoff

648
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: into the kirknasks, or maybe they did. They tried it

649
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: different ways than they just found that some standards were

650
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: just distracting Lee handsome. I don't know a devil with

651
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: the face of a guy now. Robert jeffre to us

652
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 1: in response to the Killer's Mask episode with something about

653
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: a Cobra Commander face. Did you have some anecdote in

654
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: the episode about that? Oh? Yes, I think I mentioned

655
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: that I knew somebody in high school who had a

656
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: Cobra Commander action figure, like the big kind and that's

657
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: like the bad guy and g I Joe, Yeah, yeah,

658
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: cover Commander always wore this cool mirror mask or sometimes

659
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: it was like a cloth essentially a bag that he

660
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: wore over his head. And I remarked that I knew

661
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: somebody who had an action figure in the mask apparently

662
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: came off, but he never opened the box to see

663
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: what it was like. Uh, you know what, what was

664
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: the big reveal? What it was this action figure's face.

665
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: And Jeff says, hey, guys, you may have already been

666
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: enlightened regarding this incredibly important piece of trivia. I had

667
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: a Cobra commander with the removable hood and the big reveal.

668
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: He had a half mask wrap type thing molded into

669
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: his face. Also dark hair and a molded ponytail too.

670
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: Life can be so much dancing within the tensions of

671
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: anticipation and disappointment. I have recovered over time, however, So

672
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: in other words, you took the mask off and it

673
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: was just a molded secondary mask. He essentially looked like

674
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: a dentist with a ponytail. Get out of here. That's unfortunate.

675
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: I got a similar story. Now. Do you remember the

676
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: TV show Inspector Gadget. Yes? Do you remember the villain

677
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: of that show, Doctor Claw. Yeah, it's kind of a

678
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: blowfield roof where he had like the catron hand. All

679
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: you ever saw was his cat and his his like

680
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: iron gauntlet hand, and so you never saw his face.

681
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: He always had to imagine what it looked like, but

682
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: then at some point I saw on the internet they

683
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: made an action figure of him. So and the action

684
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: figure was not just like a chair with a hand

685
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: and nothing else. It was this whole guy. And so

686
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: they're like, well, let's just make up what his face

687
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: looks like, and he just looked like I don't remember,

688
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: some kind of It was incredibly disappointing. Yeah, it reminds

689
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: me of the one Sler and Doctors is with the

690
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: Lora ax in the original book and then in the

691
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: old classic cartoon version of it. All you ever see

692
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: of the once slur his eyes peering out through something, right,

693
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: and of course his hands. And I understand they made

694
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: recently made a big computer animated version of it where

695
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: you see the like the one Sler dancing around and

696
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: it's like fully revealed. And perhaps that's necessary for uh,

697
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, adapting a short children's book into a full

698
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: length motion picture. But it seemed kind of a shame,

699
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, like keep some of the mystery alive, right, totally.

700
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: I am against the face reveal on those things that

701
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: that's such a bummer. Alright. So we got one piece

702
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: of mail on a Vault episode that ran in October,

703
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: which was our episode I think first recorded last year

704
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: called The First Monster, where we tried to talk about

705
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: like the earliest signs of of monsters in in archaeology,

706
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: and then where the idea of monsters first came from.

707
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: Uh And so our listener Chris writes in to say

708
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: hello in your episode on the First Monster, which I'm

709
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: noticing came out a year ago, so you may have

710
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: already talked about this. There was one criticism I'm surprised

711
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: you didn't address, regarding the idea that humans instinctively fear

712
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 1: certain animals. I've recently found myself incredibly skeptical of evolutionary

713
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: psychology in regards to humans. I think the idea that

714
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: humans instinctually have certain behaviors that helped hunter gatherers survive

715
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: is complicated by the fact that humans show an incredible

716
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: ability to learn new behaviors. An example I keep coming

717
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 1: back to is how humans are one of the only

718
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: animals that don't instinctively know how to swim. The reason

719
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: for this, it seems to me, is that since a

720
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: human can just learn how to swim, having that instinct

721
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: offered little to no reproductive advantage. For this reason, I

722
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: think people might be too quick to offer evolutionary reasons

723
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: for modern day human behavior. A study showing that most

724
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: people sort trail mix into its component parts might conclude

725
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: that this behavior allowed hunter gatherers to determine the flavor

726
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: and effects of different parts of a plant, while study

727
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: showing that most people eat trail mix as is might

728
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: conclude that this allowed hunter gatherers to gain items from

729
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: all parts of a plant, rather than just the tastiest.

730
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: Keep up the good work, Chris. Wait, who eats snack

731
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: mix like that? Wait? Picks the part? Do you pick

732
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: the parts? You know? You just toss in? It? Is this?

733
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: It is a taste sensation, It is calibrated. Yeah, I

734
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: would know more eat my snack mix piece by piece

735
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: than I would dissect a piece of sushi before eating that.

736
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: Oh man, if you ever seen somebody do that though

737
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: I have, well, I mean, I've seen my child do it,

738
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: but I remember an adult do it. That is satanic. Yeah,

739
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and i'd say that I my my my

740
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: kid doesn't really do that anymore. But like early on

741
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: when he was like, what is this, I'm going to

742
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: take it apart? Now he understands that he has It's

743
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: a taste, sensation. You take it all in at once,

744
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: and you appreciate the explosion of flavor and texture. I mean,

745
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: that's the whole experience. I mean it reminds me of

746
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: something that came up in an episode of Invention that

747
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: we recorded regarding chopsticks, and about how it is is

748
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: highly frowned upon to root around in your bowl and

749
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: pick out like the choice bits of protein first digging

750
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 1: your grave. Yes, don't don't be rude like that. Just

751
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: just eat. Just eat. If it's good food, it should

752
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: already be composed well and you can just eat it now.

753
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: If it is bad food, or parts of it are bad,

754
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: certainly then all rules are off. You know. Anyway, about

755
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: the point Chris makes about evolutionary psychology, I entirely agree.

756
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: I love evolutionary psychology, and I think evolutionary psychology is

757
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: really interesting ground. But I think we should always be

758
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: very conscious of its limits, right. I mean, like I

759
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: often see people um playing around in evolutionary psychology where

760
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: you say, like, I've come up with a scientifically plausible

761
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: story for how our evolutionary heritage lead to this feature

762
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: of human culture or human psychology or something like that,

763
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: And I don't think that we should rule out hypotheses

764
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, they're interesting to play with, and

765
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: I think you can bring evidence for and against them,

766
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: and that's all good stuff. But people sometimes jump from

767
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: I've come up with the scientific fully plausible story too.

768
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: I have discovered the reason you know they've gone from.

769
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good hypothesis that seems supported by

770
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: the evidence too. I have a proven theory, and you

771
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: don't have a proven theory a lot of times. I mean,

772
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology is inherently limited in a lot of ways

773
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: because you can't go back and rewind the tape. You

774
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: can just keep looking for new bits of evidence to

775
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: try to beef up your hypothesis. So I'm very pro

776
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology as long as you always remember to be

777
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: extremely conscious about what the limits are and cautious about them. Indeed, Well,

778
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take one more break

779
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: and then we'll be right back. Than alright, we're back,

780
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: and let's just go ahead and sound the basilisk alarm

781
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: because because the remainder of this episode is going to

782
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: contain listener mail related to our episode, all Hail the

783
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: Great Basilisk, or perhaps it was just called the Great Basilisk.

784
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: But you get the idea. This involves the idea of

785
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: information hazards, and we acknowledge that, well, some people don't

786
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: want uh to know about this, and we should at

787
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: least give you the option to remain free of its shackles. Yes,

788
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: now that being said, that's just a courtesy. I don't

789
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: think this idea is actually dangerous, But if you're worried

790
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: about an idea that somebody out there thinks might be dangerous,

791
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: this is the time to tune out, right. Yeah. And

792
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: plus it just adds to the mystique like, oh, they're

793
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: they're giving me the option of not listening to it. Oh,

794
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: it must be juicy, and you know, and it's pretty fun.

795
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: That was a very fun episode and a lot of

796
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: people really got it, I think, into the appropriate spirit

797
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: of the thing. Okay, so do you want to read

798
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: this first message from our listener Matt. Yeah, we'll do it.

799
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: Karney is bringing it over here. Hey, guys, I just

800
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: finish your episode on information hazards. You mentioned that you

801
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: couldn't think of an actual example of true information that

802
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: could cause harm, But as a public health scientist, this

803
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: is a well known problem some read shorts. Research has

804
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: shown that circumcision might be slightly a factive at preventing

805
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: transmission of some st I s, that's sexually transmitted infections. However,

806
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: the effect, if real, is pretty small. If hearing this

807
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: causes men who are circumcised to forego condoms, which are

808
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: highly effective, then this true information has harmed them. Oh yeah, thanks,

809
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: love the show and especially your October episodes. Yeah, this

810
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: is a really good point. I could. So. We were

811
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: talking in the episode about the idea of an information hazard,

812
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: like something that is a true piece of knowledge, but

813
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't want to spread because it would only

814
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: hurt people by spreading it. Yeah. I mean it gets

815
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: into the basic idea a little bit of knowledge is

816
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: it can be a dangerous thing. Yeah, uh yeah. And

817
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: I couldn't think of an example on the spot in

818
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: the episode, but I think this is a great example.

819
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: In fact, I can think of other examples now that

820
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: Matt has brought this up. When it comes to public health,

821
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: one would be say about spreading the idea of possible

822
00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: damaging side effects of vaccines, where like with any medication,

823
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: there is going to be some incidents of side effects,

824
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: so you might say that here's a vaccine for a

825
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: disease that you really should get because without this vaccine,

826
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: you're putting yourself at much greater risk, you know, and

827
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: you're putting public health at greater risk. But there's some

828
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: extremely tiny percentage chance of some kind of complication. Obviously,

829
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: you want people to be informed about what the possible

830
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: side effects of any medication they get are. But what

831
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: if knowing about this incredibly unlikely possibility discourages people from

832
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: getting a vaccine that they really need that would definitely

833
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: be harmful. Yeah, so I think that could go in, uh,

834
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: in that category as well. Obviously, if people were accurately

835
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: doing the risk benefit analysis, they would say, yeah, of

836
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: course I need to get the vaccine, but maybe just

837
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: the idea of some incredibly unlikely negative complication from a

838
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: vaccine would be so vivid in their mind that it

839
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: would prevent them from getting the vaccine because the disease

840
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: that the vaccine protects them from is just not as vivid.

841
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: An example, Yeah, another example that possible example that comes

842
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: to mind is, for instance, if you pick up the

843
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: idea that, hey, some scientists argue that red wine has

844
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: has health has a health benefit too. Oh yeah, if

845
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: you take that as a reason then to drink three

846
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: bottles of wine yourself every evening, then I think it's

847
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: pretty safe to say you're taking things a little bit

848
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: too far, you know. Okay, yeah, capine too, but that's

849
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: not medical advice that um. But but certainly this is

850
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: something where you could take a nugget of truth, or

851
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: at least, I mean you can say yes, some scientists

852
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: have presented information and findings that back up the idea

853
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: that there are health benefits to say, red wine or

854
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: dark chocolate, you name it. Obviously, these these are these

855
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: are studies that make headlines all the time. But if

856
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: you just take that then as an excuse to just

857
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: fully indulge yourself in red wine, into heart chocolate to

858
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: the point that it harms you, then yeah, then that

859
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: is not good. Yeah, that's a really good point. Okay,

860
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: you ready for the next one. Let's do it, Okay.

861
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: Our listener Jose writes to us about the Basilisk episode.

862
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: Jose rights, Hi, guys, greetings from Mexico. I've been a

863
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: longtime listener and I have to say I love the show.

864
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: Keep it up, and in hearing your last episode, I

865
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: decided to send my first listener mail. Sorry in advance

866
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: for suboptimal English. I think your English is great, Jose, Yeah,

867
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 1: way better than my Spanish. Um. To the point, though

868
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't agree with the premise of the superior future

869
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: punitive AI overlord, good neither do I. I have to

870
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: say I found a somewhat possible reason for it to

871
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: follow through with its hypothetical threat. Assuming it's not quite

872
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: a godlike being. Maybe it's doing so to incite fear

873
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: on the future people as a way to incentivize the

874
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: creation of its superior future overlord. I realized it's a

875
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: cyclic way of thinking, but I just wanted to share

876
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: thanks a lot and keep up the good job. Jose. Uh.

877
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting idea. So this is like

878
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: some very powerful inter immediate AI needs help achieving an

879
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: even higher state of itself, so it's not retroactive a

880
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: causal blackmail, but it would just be punishing people for

881
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: normal future facing blackmail. So there's kind of an odds

882
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: the great and powerful vibe here, you know, where it

883
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: makes sense to make your future possible self all the

884
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: more fearsome so you can carry out your objectives. Yeah,

885
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: I mean I think that this would just be like

886
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: standard kind of Machiavellian tactics. You know that this is

887
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: not involving any kind of a causal backward thinking decision theory.

888
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: This is just well, I want to scare people to

889
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: help me now in favor of the current future. Uh so,

890
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: so yeah, I'll just intimidate them based on what they've

891
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: already done in the past to motivate people now to

892
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: do more in the future. If what I just said

893
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: makes sense, I just use future a lot. I remain

894
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: somewhat skeptical of the superhuman AI idea, and even then,

895
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: the idea that it would use blackmail in order to

896
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: achieve a greater or good ultimately seems like a kind

897
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: of like failure of ethics on the machines party. I

898
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: don't think that really would count as a greater good.

899
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: All right, here's another one from Chad. Chad writes in

900
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: I love these types of episodes, an inevitable possibility of

901
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: Rocco's basilisk occurred to me. If the Supreme AI has

902
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: unlimited power within the realm of physics, then what if

903
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: the AI also discovers how to make time travel possible?

904
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: The thought hazard of our soul trapped and tortured in

905
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: a digital hell. Increases to a different risk that we

906
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: could be plucked quote unquote out of time by the

907
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: AI and actually tortured in a future time. Just food

908
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: for thought, chat, I think this is yet more fuel

909
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: on the fire of the case against time travel. Right

910
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: if you take as a possibility that you could create

911
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: a superhuman AI with godlike powers that can do pretty

912
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: much anything physically possible, and it and that anything physically

913
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: possible includes backward time travel. Why haven't we encountered backward

914
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: time travel yet? Well? Maybe it's the free Jack model

915
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: of time travel, where they can they can only pluck

916
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: Emilio Estevez out of the past if he has just

917
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: been in a fatal car accident. Kind of a loophole. Now,

918
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: I never saw Free Jack, But is that the one

919
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: with Mick Jagger in it? Oh? It has an all

920
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: star cast, Anthony Hopkins, Anthony Hopkins, Emilio Estevez, Mick Jagger,

921
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't remember who else, but I was super excited

922
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: when it came out. I would I would call the

923
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: local theater and beg them to please play Free Jack. Um,

924
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: it's a it's a flawed film, but but I have

925
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: a warm place in my heart for it is the

926
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: title of Jumping Jack flash kind of thing are they

927
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: going for that? I don't remember that at all. I

928
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: know how the title came about, but it did have

929
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 1: that basic idea that you could pluck people from the past,

930
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: but only in limited scenarios. And I think there's a

931
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: recent television series. I didn't watch it, but my wife

932
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: did where people were kind of plucked out of time

933
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: to serve on sort of you know, a squad that

934
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 1: does good kind of time cop scenario, but not time

935
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: cop oh Man. And I do not know the name

936
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: of the series, but I think it had Rob Low

937
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: in it. Um perhaps some of our listeners have have

938
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: viewed it. All right. This one last piece of mail

939
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: for today comes from our listener Josh. Josh, writing in

940
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: response to the Great Basilisk episode, says, Hey, guys, First,

941
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say I've been listening for a

942
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: long time and love the show. It's one of the

943
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: podcasts I look forward to the most and keeps me

944
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: entertained at work. So keep up the good work. Thank you, Josh.

945
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: Now to why I'm writing, Bear with me as I

946
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: need to do a little explaining I was listening to

947
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: your episode on Rocco's Basilist and the part about religion

948
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: and heaven slash Hell, et cetera got me thinking, I

949
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: was raised in a faith which I no longer believe.

950
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: In Jehovah's witness, they believe that there is no hell.

951
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: There is just heaven and a paradise Earth for the

952
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: faithful of mankind to live on for eternity. Only a

953
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: small number of mankind's Faithfulty four thousand, will go to

954
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: heaven and act as kings and judges for mankind, because

955
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: there they are the only ones who really have experience

956
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: of living on Earth in sin, yet still remaining faithful.

957
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: The unfaithful will be gone. They won't be punished for eternity.

958
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: They will just no longer exist. Everyone who has already

959
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: died has already paid for their sins with death, and

960
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: will be resurrected after Armageddon to live on a paradise

961
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: Earth along with the faithful that survive Armageddon. There is

962
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: more to it than that, but I won't go into

963
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: it as it's not really relevant to my thought. My

964
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: point is that Armageddon itself, according to their beliefs, could

965
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: be classified as a biblical information hazard. According to the

966
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: New World Translation of the Bible, the translation that Jehovah's

967
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: witnesses used, which includes the Old and New Testament, Armageddon

968
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: will only arrive once every living person on earth has

969
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: been told the truth of the scriptures, so that nobody

970
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: can say, well, I didn't know. It's not fair for

971
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: me to be unexisted. That's not a word, is it,

972
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: because nobody gave me a chance to believe. This is

973
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: why Jehovah's witnesses go from door to door talking to

974
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: people and trying to make others believe what they do.

975
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: The thought came to me when listening to this podcast

976
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: that according to their beliefs, you could technically postpone armageddon

977
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: by keeping one person a small community might be better

978
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: completely separate from someone who could talk to them about

979
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: these beliefs. The information about their beliefs, if you believe

980
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: what they do, is now an information hazard, because as

981
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: soon as the last person that doesn't know about their

982
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: beliefs receives that information, that will trigger armageddon. I just

983
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting and wanted to share that such

984
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: a large biblical event in this belief system is an

985
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: information hazard. It's not something I personally believe in. Anyone

986
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: who does believe this wouldn't really want to stop armageddon

987
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: in such a way, but still works as an information hazard. Anyway,

988
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: That's all from me. Cheers josh Ah. Though that's very interesting.

989
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: I have to admit I don't I don't know much

990
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: about the belief system of the job Is witnesses, but this, uh,

991
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: this twist on the whole armageddon thing, I think that

992
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: is a pretty strong case for for a and an

993
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: information hazard, if you buy to the notion that once

994
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: everybody has been informed, then Armageddon make commence. Yeah, I

995
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: admit I don't know a lot about Jehovah's witness theology either,

996
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: though I have had some very wonderful conversations with Jehovah's

997
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: witnesses who came to my house. Oh yeah, they generally

998
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: just give me the material and move on. Maybe I

999
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: look distracted or something. I don't know. Oh yeah, I

1000
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: mean one day I happen to have time and the

1001
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: guy started by asking me questions about I think if

1002
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: I believed in evolution or something, and so I was like, well, yeah,

1003
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: and then we just talked about it for a long time.

1004
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 1: It was very nice. Though he was a sweet guy.

1005
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: I am always open to a polite conversation about ideas.

1006
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: But there's another thing about Josh's email that I think

1007
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: is always interesting, which is like when people start, I mean,

1008
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,479
Speaker 1: we talked about this in the episode and it comes

1009
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: through and things like Pascal's wager and stuff, But when

1010
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: people start applying like very kind of uh, kind of

1011
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: like cold direct decision theory to theological principles, like if

1012
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: you accept the theological principles as real, but then you

1013
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 1: just start saying, okay, how do you optimize for best

1014
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: theological outcomes? It seems like religions don't tend to encourage

1015
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: that type of decision making on the basis of theological principles.

1016
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: It's really more just kind of like, well, here the dogmas,

1017
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: and you should you know, follow certain rules. But when

1018
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: people start trying to like use decision theory to optimize

1019
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: what to do based on the theological principles, it all

1020
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: it always comes off as very like no, no, no,

1021
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: that's not how you're supposed to think about this. Yeah,

1022
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 1: I have to say I tend to prefer it when

1023
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: the key argument of religion is hey, uh, look how

1024
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: we can improve your life for the lives of others

1025
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: on Earth. Uh that you know here the net positives

1026
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: of the belief in the real world as opposed to, Hey,

1027
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: we have to reduce the human population to a certain

1028
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: number so that the no God can return or something,

1029
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: and that's just a little you know, we we've got

1030
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: to get everything just right from again. And that's just

1031
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: not a great self for me. We're not saying that's

1032
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: what the Jehovah's witnesses or no, no, no no, but the

1033
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: but you know when it's when it's more based in

1034
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: like some specific scheme for the afterlife right now, Yeah,

1035
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: I just don't personally see the appeal as much. It

1036
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: can sometimes feel kind of like one of those sci

1037
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 1: fi movies where you have to like trigger the machine

1038
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: in just a certain ways. We flipped the big switch

1039
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: and then you hit the command console. Earth has performed

1040
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: an illegal operation and we'll be shut down. Yeah. I mean,

1041
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: I still enjoy hearing about all these these different police systems,

1042
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: and I also have to acknowledge that, you know, certainly

1043
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: some of those belief systems out there that are more

1044
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: afterlife centric and and maybe harsher in their theology, we

1045
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 1: do have to acknowledge that a lot of times those

1046
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 1: religions are created by and or marketed to individuals who

1047
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: are living like closer to the edge in the here

1048
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,240
Speaker 1: and now. And therefore, you know, I have to acknowledge

1049
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: that I have a certain amount of privilege in not

1050
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: being in uh, you know, not being a part of

1051
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: the target audience for those types of theologies. Well, yeah,

1052
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it's sometimes hard to remember that even

1053
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: within a religion that has particular dogmas, there's actually a

1054
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,760
Speaker 1: lot of diversity of belief, usually what people privately believe

1055
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: versus what their church teaches. I remember growing up in

1056
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: Tennessee there were people who like belong to churches that said,

1057
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: you know, you can't drink alcohol, But they didn't know that. Wait,

1058
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: my religion says I can't have beer. I had no idea. Indeed,

1059
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a big tent for sure. Uh. And sometimes

1060
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: there's drinking in that tent. All right. So there you

1061
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Speaker 1: have it, Part one of our Halloween Hangover listener Mail Extravaganza.

1062
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: That's it for the basilist content. We'll cut that off,

1063
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: but when we come back in the next episode, we

1064
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: have so much more. October Listener Mail to get through

1065
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: so many wonderful thoughts about of various monsters and evils,

1066
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: and threats and curses, and even, of course, the deadly

1067
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: mirkwood squirrel. Huge thanks as always to our wonderful audio

1068
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: producers Alex Williams and try Harrison. If you would like

1069
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

1070
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: episode or any other UH, to suggest a topic for

1071
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hi, let us know

1072
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: where you listen from, how you found out, how you

1073
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: found out about the show, all that kind of stuff.

1074
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: You can email us at blow the Mind at how

1075
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

1076
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com

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Speaker 1: b b b b