WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Princes in the Tower 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:17.400 Thinking Sideways. I'm stories of things we simply don't know 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.400 the answer too. Well. Hi there and thanks for joining 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.800 us again. This is Thinking Sideways the podcast and I 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:31.160 am Steve as always joined by Joe Hello and Devon Hey, 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:37.879 who I like to introduce uh it for ourselves? No, no, can. 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:39.800 I always remember my own name. So that's a good thing. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.280 A micro manage this stuff. But you know what, we 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.879 need a micro manager, Yeah we do. Okay, Well, today 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.400 we're going to get into a story that I've I've 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.800 been really looking forward to to sharing with everybody, as 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.440 that you two know, but our listeners probably don't. Recently, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.520 I was in England. It's such a long time, but 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.639 yeah it was. It's such an extended amount of time. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.080 But when I was there, I of course was touring 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:07.920 around London and I got the chance to go to 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.959 the Tower of London and was reminded of a story 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.759 that I had heard of but it never really thought 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.520 much of until I actually got to see the site 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.880 where a bunch of the action happened. By the way, 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:21.600 just as in the side. I was the first time 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:23.520 I saw the Tower of London myself, I was kind 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.600 of surprised because I was expecting an actual tower. It's 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.520 like a fortress, you know. It's a Yeah, it's very cool. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.880 But where's the tower. There's several of them. Yeah, they're 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.480 they're short towers. They're short squat towers. They don't really 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.040 look like towers. I just remember how giant the ravens are. 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.520 The ravens. Oh, yes, they are disturbingly big giant there. Well, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.920 they're hand fed, basically. Yeah, it's seven of them. There 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.240 has to be seven on the grounds at all times 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.680 or the monarchy falls. Is that what the legend is? Yeah, 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.360 they not know about this, this particular story. Yes, I 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.520 I seven might not be the right number, but I 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.680 know that they maybe it's nine, but they have to 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.400 have them on the grounds. And they're they're big. I 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.400 mean like ravens, you see how kind of like when 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.920 you are hiking here, not crows. But ravens are not 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.040 as big as these things. And maybe it's because I 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:14.640 was a kid when I saw him, but like I 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:27.079 remember them being giants. Yes, European ravens. That's that's a path, Yes, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.840 were going down the path. So anyway, the story that 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.200 we're going to talk about is the princes in the tower. 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.359 This is a story about two young princes that we're 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.600 in the Tower of London, thus the name creative job. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:50.480 So our story takes place in three and at that time, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.280 the people that we're gonna be talking about our aristocracy. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.160 So they have really fancy titles to go with everybody's names, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.600 and they're all the same names, and they're all the 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.560 same names, which makes it a little rough to keep 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.160 straight and tell. So I'm gonna preface this episode right 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:13.440 now with saying I'm gonna use everybody's more commonly known names. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.200 In other words, the first king that we're going to 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.280 talk about is Edward the Fourth, so I'm going to 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.960 refer to him as Edward the Fourth, not his full title, 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.920 just for simplicities reasons. Otherwise, even I'm going to be confused, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.120 and I could never keep track of all that stuff 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.280 to this day, and I sure, I'm sure I could 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.320 have found out, like say, why, why, prince what's his 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.720 name is called the Prince of Wales. I mean, you know, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.080 these the Prince of Wales. I'm sorry, but Wales is 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.360 like another country over there, you know what, You're the 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.320 Prince of Wales. Okay, Yeah, so there you go. Some 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.440 of that stuff is just I'll explain it to you later, Joe, Okay, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.520 just not now, okay, okay, all right, So let's go 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.800 ahead and get into the story itself, which is on 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:03.280 April nine three, King Edward the Fourth, the King of England, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.760 dies unexpectedly sick for a couple of weeks and then 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.920 just up and dies. It did happen a lot in 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.640 those days the king and somebody wanted your throne. Well, 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:21.400 he did leave airs. He had two sons. They were 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.440 they were by his wife, yes, so they were not, 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.920 you know, from a mistress. They were from the woman 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.479 who were married. You know that that question did sort 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.320 of pop up that you're going to talk about. Yeah, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.240 we're gonna we're gonna get there. Um okay. So we 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:39.840 have Prince Edward, who is referred to as Edward five 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.200 and then and he was thirteen when this happened, so 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:48.239 he's a boy king. And then there is his little brother, Richard, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.520 who is because he doesn't have an official number title, 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.480 we're gonna just refer to him as Richard, the Duke 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.080 of York. He's nine. Can we call him Richie? You 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.760 can call him Richie? Alright, So we cool, I mean 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.240 you're nine years old and you have to be duke. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.479 I think he was duke from the day he was born. Yeah, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.680 that's the way it works. Well, what happens, of course, 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.479 is their father dies and their uncle, whose name is 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.480 Richard the third. Yep, it's already getting confusing. He is 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.760 declared the Lord protector of the boys by the king 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.880 before he dies. Now this isn't recorded officially anywhere, but 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:29.640 everybody presumes that that's what happens, because he takes him 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.839 and he goes to take the boy back to London 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.159 to reside in the Tower of London, because the Tower 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.280 of London is traditionally where the king would stay until 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.760 the coronation. His coronation, the coronation of our young King 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.760 Edward the five was originally supposed to take place on 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:53.039 the fourth of May. Then it was pushed back to 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:58.440 June that year. Before the coronation could take place, their uncle, 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.360 Richard the Third, began to cast outs on the validity 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.400 of the marriage between the deceased king and his wife, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.280 Elizabeth Woodville. And at the time she was alive, she 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.440 had she was still alive, she had several daughters at 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.320 the as well. They had I think a total of 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:26.520 nine children, not all of whom survived child but yes, 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.799 nine kids. I believe it was nine children. Evidently the 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:38.160 church got behind this idea that the marriage was invalid, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.400 and this was actually brought to the front. Let's see here. 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.000 It was the twenty two of June, like six days 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:53.120 before the coronation. Three days before the cornation, the preacher 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:58.800 at St. Paul's Cross claimed that Richard had was the 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.599 only Richard the third was the only legitimate heir to 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:08.200 the crown because they were saying that his brother, Edward 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:13.560 the Fourth had initially been engaged to another woman and 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:18.840 then married the mother of these two young princes. That's 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.640 the weirdest thing I ever heard in life. It's it's 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.280 very weird. I think it's something to do with I 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.720 don't know if it's contractual is the way that is 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.800 the right word for it, But I don't know exactly 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.920 how they treated engagement back in those days. Yeah, basically 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.640 claimed that because he was engaged with someone else, he 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.560 couldn't get married to her the way he did. Surprising 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.600 nobody noticed until this particular moment. And there's there's some 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.360 doubts as to whether or not he was actually engaged 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.960 the woman that they said he was engaged to. Which 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.800 was she like a queen or princess of a different 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.200 place or was she No, she was, she was she 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.640 was English royalty. But yeah, was It was really really weird. 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.360 So what happens is this, this sermon happens, and then 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.440 on the twenty five of June, which at this point 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.720 I believe the coronation has already been shoved back again, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.400 though there's no official date for it to happen. Now, 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.840 a group of and I quote lords, knights and gentlemen 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:25.160 petitioned Richard to take the throne. Everybody's changing their allegiance 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.760 from the current king, who has not yet been crowned 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:33.000 and who's thirteen years old, and they're throwing their weight 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:37.720 and their beliefs over to Richard the Third, who's an adult. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.840 And these guys probably just saw which way the wind 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.600 was blowing. I mean, when he heard the news about 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.600 the declaration about the marriage, they knew what was happening. 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.840 And it's hard to say in in the history, it's 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.400 hard to get a clear sense of who's first started 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.720 casting these doubts about Edward the fourth and his wife. 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.720 We don't know if it's Richard the third. If it 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:04.120 was somebody else, how this whole thing happened, We're not 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.920 exactly positive. It's kind of lost in the sand, yeah, 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.319 but basically, obviously enough, Richard takes the throne and he 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:21.040 is now the king. The issue at the church with 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.439 the validity of Edward the Fourth's marriage actually gets passed 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.960 into an act by British Parliament the next year. It's 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.440 called Titless Regius I believe it's how you say it, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.000 the Titles Regius Act, and that stated that their marriage 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.320 King Edward the fourth and Elizabeth Woodville was invalid. So 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.800 therefore those boys could absolutely not be king, and none 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:49.520 of their children were had any claim to the throne 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:54.480 at all. So these little guys are kind of left 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.480 out in the cold. Yeah, but they're still family, right, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.200 so you can kind of assume even if you know 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.120 the uncle is like, well, they've got a mother who's alive, 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.720 and they're separated from their mother. Their mother had initially 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.880 gone into hiding when her husband died. And then the 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.160 boys didn't come to the tower at the same time. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.800 The young king came first, and then later his brother 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:24.720 came and joined him. They found him well basically what 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.000 happens Joe's kind of hitting it is that the two 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.560 princes were seen on the grounds of the Tower of 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.959 London in the spring of four three, and then, according 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.760 to some writings, they just up and disappeared, and some 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.120 others they were seeing less and less and were moved 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.040 into the rear apartments of the castle, and then they 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:51.200 were gone and they were never seen again alive. I 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.280 wonder if maybe the mother kind of knew what was up, right, 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.680 I mean, why does a woman go into hiding when 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:05.120 her husband, Yeah, it dies from totally legitimate causes, ostensibly right, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.760 with two sons who have totally legitimate again ostensibly claims 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.320 to the throne. And it is I've read some accounts 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.840 of what she could have been thinking, because the thing is, 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:20.200 she does eventually sort of give some allegiance to Richard 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.360 the third, and then later on she then shifts her 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.680 allegiance to the next king, which is Henry the seventh. 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.680 So I think that, to steal the words out of 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.680 Joe's mouth, she saw the writing on the wall, she knew, 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:35.920 she knew that the only way her family was going 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.520 to survive was to play ball. Yeah, because she had 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:43.400 more more more children, and also, you know, I mean, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.280 who knows. Maybe he was holding the kids still and 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.320 she was being blackmailed, although more likely the kids were 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:53.240 already dead. Maybe she thought decided, now I'll just protect 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.520 what's left with my family. Maybe she thought they were 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:00.400 still alive. Well, let's jump forward. Yeah years. Oh no, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:05.080 no, no no, no, two hundred years. We're gonna get the 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:09.160 time machine. Okay, two hundred years have gone by. It 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.760 is sixteen seventy four. We are still on the grounds 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.640 at the Tower of London, and we're at the White Tower, 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.000 which is one of several towers on the grounds. And 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.240 there's some workmen digging under the stairs in the tower 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.080 and they come across a wooden box. And now I 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.400 imagine these guys, Hey, there's a big wooden box buried 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:37.600 under the stairs. They crack it open. Not gold. It's 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.800 got the skeletons of two children in it. Have you 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:46.160 noticed that it's always workmen who find the skeletons. That's 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.640 why I don't want to be a workman. I haven't 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.719 found fun yet. I'm really happy about it. But no, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.679 they find this box and this the remains that we're 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.760 in this box are widely believed to be the remains 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.400 of these two princes who went missing at ages thirteen 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.240 and nine. Again, I've I've seen accounts that say that 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.400 there was velvet wrapped around them in the box, which 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.640 would lead credence to the theory that, yeah, they probably 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.040 were royalty because common people didn't have velvet. They're very 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.959 expensive fabricle crazy expensive at that point in time. It's 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.560 still expensive now and we can like mass produce it 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:32.680 my velvet jumpsuit. Oh my god, I don't want to know. Alright, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.400 So back to the story. I'll okay. The remains that 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.880 they found were later on, I would say within a 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.280 month or so. We're placed in an urn and were 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:49.240 interred in Westminster Abbey by King Charles the Second. But 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.880 there was some analysis done of the bones. This was 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.440 done in three I don't know why, but the royalty 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.480 actually agreed to open up the urn and let somebody 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.920 examine it. So the burn they didn't burn, the bones 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.600 and the ashes it was actual. Yeah, And it's weird 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.440 to me whatever I think, and I know this is 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.480 confusing to some people. I think of an urn, and 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.240 I think of a little urn that's got ashes. Yeah, 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.520 there's big ERNs too, so that's something to clarify. I'm 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.040 not sure why they would choose an urn to put 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:26.600 bones in. I'm guessing they piled them up. I don't 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:32.760 think they had temper were. Yes, So the analysis was 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.960 done on the bones and the guy who did it 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.200 again history has gone back and people have really chewed 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.280 up his analysis of it. But he said, yeah, they 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.960 could both be boys, but I can't tell that for sure. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.920 I'm pretty sure one of them is about twelve or thirteen, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.400 and I think the other ones around ten. They were 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.440 then sealed back up and no one has ever been 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.760 allowed to get at him again. You think with modern 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:05.200 technology we could just use Yeah. And you know, I 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.600 gotta say, in a way, I kind of agree with 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.560 the Royalty in this situation because there's been a lot 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.479 of coverage of it here and there, and there's a 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.840 footnote on this story that explains why it became so 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.320 popular again. But they said, you know, okay, well you 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.200 could do all this work and you could go ahead 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.120 and check it out, and you could figure out if 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.720 they are indeed the bones of those princes, and well, 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.440 two things are gonna need to be figured out then, One, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.720 if they're not what are we supposed to do with 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.320 the bones? Where do we put them? And to dfill 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.200 and to it doesn't solve the mystery. No, we still 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:47.440 don't know who or why who killed them and specifically 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.440 why that happened. So it does nothing to solve the mystery. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:52.720 So I can kind of understand, you know, for out 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.520 of respect reason. Yeah, And I would assume that they 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.960 just kind of have come to terms with it at 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.720 this point, right, I mean you can kind of see 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.640 how maybe in the thirties, you know, it's been a 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.200 couple hundred years, is maybe somebody in the royal family 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.320 deeply connected with this story for whatever reason, so they 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:16.040 were very interested and very curious to know if you know, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.040 this was a valid claim. And and you know, I 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.560 think since then maybe it's just family has decided well 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.680 that's just it. Yeah, Yeah, you don't shake it up, 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.120 you don't shake up behind let it go. That. And 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.280 the other thing too, is at the royals. I mean, 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.160 they've got all kinds of people buried in places like 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.880 Winds Mr At Westminster Abbey, and you know, it's kind 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.120 of questionable and maybe maybe not everybody buried in there 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.800 was part of the royal family, something that was brought 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.440 up as well. Now we're gonna have to do everybody 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.840 can of worms. If you exhumed all of their corpses 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.560 and a lot of extensive DNA testing on all of them, 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:53.080 you might find a lot of them were like like 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.760 not actually the children of the kings. Everybody thought that 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.800 were the children of all kinds of things like that. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.720 It wouldn't look like I said, a big can of worms. 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.840 It's just not a good thing. So because like, for example, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.119 you know, imagine that there was actually a break in 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.600 the lineage somewhere like a couple of hundred years ago, 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.840 and our present royal family doesn't actually have any legitimate 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.320 claim to royalty anyway. I mean, that's entirely possible, and 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:18.760 that would be a giant scandal. Yeah, well and think 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.040 about it. Think what that would do to the housewives 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:26.520 of America who they got to obsess over. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.919 it's true. So now we're gonna go ahead and we're 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.359 gonna get into the theory section of everything, And I'm 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.800 gonna kind of break this up into two subsections. Sure 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.119 that or not a theories they were murdered or they worked. 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.640 So we're going to start with they were murdered, So 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.359 who could have done it? Who could have killed them? 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.840 Colonel Mustard Candlestick exactly, all right, So our first and 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:59.240 most obvious culprit is Richard the third one. Okay, well 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.280 but and and well you might like some of the 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.840 stuff that's in this theory then, because there's holes in 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.880 this theory, I think the problem. What do you got? Well, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.080 it just seems like he had a pretty solid grip. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:11.679 I mean, it's not like there were a bunch of 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.159 people running around saying no, you don't have a legitimate claim. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.280 You know, the Church was behind him, Most of the 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.200 powerful people in England were behind him. Parliament later passed 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.240 a thing that said, yeah, I know these boys don't 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.640 have any claim. Their mother was on the run. Which 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.159 was a great argument for why they wouldn't have been 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:36.600 legitimate sons is that if you have royalty that potentially 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:41.439 could somehow revalidate their claim to the throne. That's a threat. 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.600 But they're not always going to that's true. But if 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.200 they if they disappeared too, that's kind of like that's 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.320 kind of like an implicit acknowledgement on your part, if 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:54.480 you're Richard the Third that they are the legitimate airs 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.200 if you felt that that their claim was so strong 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.120 that you needed to kill them. Well, and the thing 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.280 is is that there were all these rumors about the 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.920 boys having been killed, and he never responded to any 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.560 of those. And he also never opened an investigation as 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.720 to where were the boys. That's kind of funny that 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.040 you think somebody would be asking those questions. I mean, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.600 they sort of go away, and well, it was everybody, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.960 it was. It was rumor. Everybody's we haven't seen the princes, Well, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.840 they must have been killed, on and on and on. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.439 So it's hard to say. But here's here's the problem 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.080 with saying, well, Richard must be the one who's responsible 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.680 for this. In history, it's always written by the people 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.040 who win the wars. And Richard was only on the 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:46.040 throne for I believe two. Yeah, he died in August 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.960 or Foive, so he wasn't there very long. And this 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.640 is the time when we're going they're going through the 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.840 War of the Roses, which is a giant battle between 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.240 two sides of the family. They got really down and 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.560 dirty the his Richard, the third side of the family, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:10.520 lost out, and history was written over them. There's things 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.560 about Richard, that aren't exactly true, that are just accepted 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.440 commonly is having to be the truth, such as like 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.360 a lot of a lot of the propaganda the year 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.840 fed today, you know, in the media out there. And 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.080 the thing is is that one of the things that 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.800 you hear is that he had a humped left or 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.119 right shoulder. In other words, he was physically deformed. And 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.560 there are paintings of him where he's got a humped shoulder. Uh. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.080 They've actually done X ray analysis of those paintings and 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.800 they were altered at some point after the fact to 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.080 match that description. Although when they actually discovered his core 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.199 or his bones on his corps, they just as I'm 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.320 sure you're aware, you're gonna tell our listeners, they discovered 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.720 his corps recently, excuse me, his bones again underneath the 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.520 car park. He did have his back and he had 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.760 severe scoliosis. So it's quite possible, is that his portrait, 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.480 Sure that was done while he was king. It was 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.800 like tactfully he was actually readjusted to look normal. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.359 and then somebody went back and said, we'll really make 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.280 this look like Yeah, that's that's very very likely a possibility. Uh. 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.959 The other thing is that Richard lost the battle and 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.920 was killed. It's the Battle of bosworth Field is where 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.119 he's killed, and Henry the Seventh takes over. He was 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:36.960 on the Tutor side of the family, so again the 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.560 opposite side that didn't like his side, and Henry the Seventh, 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.520 over the course of his reign systematically went through and 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.880 wiped out the majority of the people that were on 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.560 I believe the York side of the lineage. We don't 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.600 know how much of the information that's out there that 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.120 says that Richard the three is guilty in the one 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.920 who ordered it's true, because it could be propaganda. Absolutely, yeah, 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.040 you know, And again I say that like they're they're 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.800 thirteen and nine, and I think I don't know a 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.840 thirteen year old that, like, you know, their father died 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.880 of natural causes. Everybody says, you don't have a legitimate thing. 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:17.959 You just like take him in and you treat him 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.719 really well and give him a lot of land. The chances, 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:22.639 you know, treat him like your own son, the chances 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.360 of him coming back and saying, no, I'm the rightful king. 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.920 I just don't feel like they're that big. And maybe 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.760 maybe they are. Maybe they were. Maybe he was showing that. 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.639 But then you kill both of them. Why because if 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:37.240 you kill the elder, the younger becomes Yeah, you're right, 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.440 and nine year olds are really really good at holding grudges. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:47.400 But yeah, I think that especially. You know, you got 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:49.159 to look at the royal the royals of yourpe, the 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.320 royal families, they were basically crime families. Yea, they're they're 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.399 like you know, yeah, they were like the corleonest they 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.280 and so the backstabbing, you know, in fighting and fighting 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.920 wasn't and deadly and continually and deadly. So the idea 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.240 that Richard could have taken him and treated him like 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:08.280 just treated them just one like his own, like his 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.400 own kids, and they would never come back at stabman 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:11.760 the back and try to take the throne away. Of 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:16.440 course they would. That is the way it's done, its 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.040 way business is practice. So the next up on the 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.240 list is a fellow by the name of James Tyrrell. 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.639 I believe it's how you pronounced his name. He was 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:30.640 a loyal knight to the House of York. He served 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.320 under Richard the Third. Evidently he was quite loyal to Richard, 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.800 though eventually he did leave England and went to France 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.280 and when he came back, he was leading a revolt 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.520 against the monarchy. He came back in fifteen o one, 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.880 which it was the tutors at that point. So we've 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.920 got Henry the Seventh is on the crowd and his 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:57.160 rebellion doesn't go so well, and he's captured, and back 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:01.000 in those days and in his in terror gation, which 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:06.440 is actually tortured. Oh man, No, it's more than that though. 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.840 In those days, like we do these days, like whatever, 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:14.040 we do some really horrible stuff. But what they did, 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:15.720 I gotta say, if I had to choose between that 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:17.679 and water boarding, I mean, I'm not gonna watch. I 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:21.280 gotta wine about water board. Yeah, well, that's a pretty 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:29.320