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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'm stories of things we simply don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer too. Well. Hi there and thanks for joining

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Speaker 1: us again. This is Thinking Sideways the podcast and I

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Speaker 1: am Steve as always joined by Joe Hello and Devon Hey,

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Speaker 1: who I like to introduce uh it for ourselves? No, no, can.

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Speaker 1: I always remember my own name. So that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: A micro manage this stuff. But you know what, we

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Speaker 1: need a micro manager, Yeah we do. Okay, Well, today

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into a story that I've I've

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Speaker 1: been really looking forward to to sharing with everybody, as

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Speaker 1: that you two know, but our listeners probably don't. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I was in England. It's such a long time, but

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Speaker 1: yeah it was. It's such an extended amount of time.

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Speaker 1: But when I was there, I of course was touring

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Speaker 1: around London and I got the chance to go to

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Speaker 1: the Tower of London and was reminded of a story

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Speaker 1: that I had heard of but it never really thought

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Speaker 1: much of until I actually got to see the site

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Speaker 1: where a bunch of the action happened. By the way,

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Speaker 1: just as in the side. I was the first time

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Speaker 1: I saw the Tower of London myself, I was kind

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Speaker 1: of surprised because I was expecting an actual tower. It's

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Speaker 1: like a fortress, you know. It's a Yeah, it's very cool.

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Speaker 1: But where's the tower. There's several of them. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: they're short towers. They're short squat towers. They don't really

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Speaker 1: look like towers. I just remember how giant the ravens are.

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Speaker 1: The ravens. Oh, yes, they are disturbingly big giant there. Well,

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Speaker 1: they're hand fed, basically. Yeah, it's seven of them. There

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Speaker 1: has to be seven on the grounds at all times

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Speaker 1: or the monarchy falls. Is that what the legend is? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they not know about this, this particular story. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: I seven might not be the right number, but I

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Speaker 1: know that they maybe it's nine, but they have to

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Speaker 1: have them on the grounds. And they're they're big. I

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Speaker 1: mean like ravens, you see how kind of like when

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Speaker 1: you are hiking here, not crows. But ravens are not

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Speaker 1: as big as these things. And maybe it's because I

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Speaker 1: was a kid when I saw him, but like I

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Speaker 1: remember them being giants. Yes, European ravens. That's that's a path, Yes,

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Speaker 1: were going down the path. So anyway, the story that

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is the princes in the tower.

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Speaker 1: This is a story about two young princes that we're

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Speaker 1: in the Tower of London, thus the name creative job.

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Speaker 1: So our story takes place in three and at that time,

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Speaker 1: the people that we're gonna be talking about our aristocracy.

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Speaker 1: So they have really fancy titles to go with everybody's names,

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Speaker 1: and they're all the same names, and they're all the

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Speaker 1: same names, which makes it a little rough to keep

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Speaker 1: straight and tell. So I'm gonna preface this episode right

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Speaker 1: now with saying I'm gonna use everybody's more commonly known names.

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Speaker 1: In other words, the first king that we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about is Edward the Fourth, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: refer to him as Edward the Fourth, not his full title,

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Speaker 1: just for simplicities reasons. Otherwise, even I'm going to be confused,

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Speaker 1: and I could never keep track of all that stuff

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Speaker 1: to this day, and I sure, I'm sure I could

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Speaker 1: have found out, like say, why, why, prince what's his

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Speaker 1: name is called the Prince of Wales. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: these the Prince of Wales. I'm sorry, but Wales is

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Speaker 1: like another country over there, you know what, You're the

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Speaker 1: Prince of Wales. Okay, Yeah, so there you go. Some

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Speaker 1: of that stuff is just I'll explain it to you later, Joe, Okay,

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Speaker 1: just not now, okay, okay, all right, So let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get into the story itself, which is on

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Speaker 1: April nine three, King Edward the Fourth, the King of England,

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Speaker 1: dies unexpectedly sick for a couple of weeks and then

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Speaker 1: just up and dies. It did happen a lot in

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Speaker 1: those days the king and somebody wanted your throne. Well,

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Speaker 1: he did leave airs. He had two sons. They were

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Speaker 1: they were by his wife, yes, so they were not,

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Speaker 1: you know, from a mistress. They were from the woman

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Speaker 1: who were married. You know that that question did sort

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Speaker 1: of pop up that you're going to talk about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna get there. Um okay. So we

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Speaker 1: have Prince Edward, who is referred to as Edward five

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Speaker 1: and then and he was thirteen when this happened, so

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Speaker 1: he's a boy king. And then there is his little brother, Richard,

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Speaker 1: who is because he doesn't have an official number title,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna just refer to him as Richard, the Duke

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Speaker 1: of York. He's nine. Can we call him Richie? You

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Speaker 1: can call him Richie? Alright, So we cool, I mean

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Speaker 1: you're nine years old and you have to be duke.

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Speaker 1: I think he was duke from the day he was born. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the way it works. Well, what happens, of course,

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Speaker 1: is their father dies and their uncle, whose name is

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Speaker 1: Richard the third. Yep, it's already getting confusing. He is

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Speaker 1: declared the Lord protector of the boys by the king

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Speaker 1: before he dies. Now this isn't recorded officially anywhere, but

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Speaker 1: everybody presumes that that's what happens, because he takes him

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Speaker 1: and he goes to take the boy back to London

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Speaker 1: to reside in the Tower of London, because the Tower

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Speaker 1: of London is traditionally where the king would stay until

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Speaker 1: the coronation. His coronation, the coronation of our young King

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Speaker 1: Edward the five was originally supposed to take place on

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Speaker 1: the fourth of May. Then it was pushed back to

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Speaker 1: June that year. Before the coronation could take place, their uncle,

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Speaker 1: Richard the Third, began to cast outs on the validity

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Speaker 1: of the marriage between the deceased king and his wife,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Woodville. And at the time she was alive, she

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Speaker 1: had she was still alive, she had several daughters at

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Speaker 1: the as well. They had I think a total of

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Speaker 1: nine children, not all of whom survived child but yes,

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Speaker 1: nine kids. I believe it was nine children. Evidently the

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Speaker 1: church got behind this idea that the marriage was invalid,

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Speaker 1: and this was actually brought to the front. Let's see here.

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Speaker 1: It was the twenty two of June, like six days

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Speaker 1: before the coronation. Three days before the cornation, the preacher

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Speaker 1: at St. Paul's Cross claimed that Richard had was the

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Speaker 1: only Richard the third was the only legitimate heir to

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Speaker 1: the crown because they were saying that his brother, Edward

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Speaker 1: the Fourth had initially been engaged to another woman and

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Speaker 1: then married the mother of these two young princes. That's

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Speaker 1: the weirdest thing I ever heard in life. It's it's

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Speaker 1: very weird. I think it's something to do with I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's contractual is the way that is

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Speaker 1: the right word for it, But I don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: how they treated engagement back in those days. Yeah, basically

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Speaker 1: claimed that because he was engaged with someone else, he

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Speaker 1: couldn't get married to her the way he did. Surprising

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Speaker 1: nobody noticed until this particular moment. And there's there's some

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Speaker 1: doubts as to whether or not he was actually engaged

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Speaker 1: the woman that they said he was engaged to. Which

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Speaker 1: was she like a queen or princess of a different

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Speaker 1: place or was she No, she was, she was she

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Speaker 1: was English royalty. But yeah, was It was really really weird.

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Speaker 1: So what happens is this, this sermon happens, and then

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Speaker 1: on the twenty five of June, which at this point

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Speaker 1: I believe the coronation has already been shoved back again,

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Speaker 1: though there's no official date for it to happen. Now,

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Speaker 1: a group of and I quote lords, knights and gentlemen

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Speaker 1: petitioned Richard to take the throne. Everybody's changing their allegiance

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Speaker 1: from the current king, who has not yet been crowned

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Speaker 1: and who's thirteen years old, and they're throwing their weight

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Speaker 1: and their beliefs over to Richard the Third, who's an adult.

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Speaker 1: And these guys probably just saw which way the wind

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Speaker 1: was blowing. I mean, when he heard the news about

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Speaker 1: the declaration about the marriage, they knew what was happening.

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Speaker 1: And it's hard to say in in the history, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to get a clear sense of who's first started

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Speaker 1: casting these doubts about Edward the fourth and his wife.

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Speaker 1: We don't know if it's Richard the third. If it

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Speaker 1: was somebody else, how this whole thing happened, We're not

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Speaker 1: exactly positive. It's kind of lost in the sand, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but basically, obviously enough, Richard takes the throne and he

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Speaker 1: is now the king. The issue at the church with

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Speaker 1: the validity of Edward the Fourth's marriage actually gets passed

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Speaker 1: into an act by British Parliament the next year. It's

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Speaker 1: called Titless Regius I believe it's how you say it,

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Speaker 1: the Titles Regius Act, and that stated that their marriage

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Speaker 1: King Edward the fourth and Elizabeth Woodville was invalid. So

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Speaker 1: therefore those boys could absolutely not be king, and none

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Speaker 1: of their children were had any claim to the throne

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Speaker 1: at all. So these little guys are kind of left

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Speaker 1: out in the cold. Yeah, but they're still family, right,

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Speaker 1: so you can kind of assume even if you know

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Speaker 1: the uncle is like, well, they've got a mother who's alive,

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Speaker 1: and they're separated from their mother. Their mother had initially

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Speaker 1: gone into hiding when her husband died. And then the

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Speaker 1: boys didn't come to the tower at the same time.

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Speaker 1: The young king came first, and then later his brother

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Speaker 1: came and joined him. They found him well basically what

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Speaker 1: happens Joe's kind of hitting it is that the two

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Speaker 1: princes were seen on the grounds of the Tower of

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Speaker 1: London in the spring of four three, and then, according

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Speaker 1: to some writings, they just up and disappeared, and some

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Speaker 1: others they were seeing less and less and were moved

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Speaker 1: into the rear apartments of the castle, and then they

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Speaker 1: were gone and they were never seen again alive. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if maybe the mother kind of knew what was up, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, why does a woman go into hiding when

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Speaker 1: her husband, Yeah, it dies from totally legitimate causes, ostensibly right,

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Speaker 1: with two sons who have totally legitimate again ostensibly claims

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Speaker 1: to the throne. And it is I've read some accounts

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Speaker 1: of what she could have been thinking, because the thing is,

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Speaker 1: she does eventually sort of give some allegiance to Richard

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Speaker 1: the third, and then later on she then shifts her

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Speaker 1: allegiance to the next king, which is Henry the seventh.

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Speaker 1: So I think that, to steal the words out of

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Speaker 1: Joe's mouth, she saw the writing on the wall, she knew,

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Speaker 1: she knew that the only way her family was going

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Speaker 1: to survive was to play ball. Yeah, because she had

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Speaker 1: more more more children, and also, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe he was holding the kids still and

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Speaker 1: she was being blackmailed, although more likely the kids were

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Speaker 1: already dead. Maybe she thought decided, now I'll just protect

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Speaker 1: what's left with my family. Maybe she thought they were

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Speaker 1: still alive. Well, let's jump forward. Yeah years. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: no, no no, no, two hundred years. We're gonna get the

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Speaker 1: time machine. Okay, two hundred years have gone by. It

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Speaker 1: is sixteen seventy four. We are still on the grounds

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Speaker 1: at the Tower of London, and we're at the White Tower,

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Speaker 1: which is one of several towers on the grounds. And

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Speaker 1: there's some workmen digging under the stairs in the tower

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Speaker 1: and they come across a wooden box. And now I

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Speaker 1: imagine these guys, Hey, there's a big wooden box buried

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Speaker 1: under the stairs. They crack it open. Not gold. It's

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Speaker 1: got the skeletons of two children in it. Have you

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Speaker 1: noticed that it's always workmen who find the skeletons. That's

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Speaker 1: why I don't want to be a workman. I haven't

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Speaker 1: found fun yet. I'm really happy about it. But no,

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Speaker 1: they find this box and this the remains that we're

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Speaker 1: in this box are widely believed to be the remains

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Speaker 1: of these two princes who went missing at ages thirteen

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Speaker 1: and nine. Again, I've I've seen accounts that say that

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Speaker 1: there was velvet wrapped around them in the box, which

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Speaker 1: would lead credence to the theory that, yeah, they probably

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Speaker 1: were royalty because common people didn't have velvet. They're very

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Speaker 1: expensive fabricle crazy expensive at that point in time. It's

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Speaker 1: still expensive now and we can like mass produce it

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Speaker 1: my velvet jumpsuit. Oh my god, I don't want to know. Alright,

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Speaker 1: So back to the story. I'll okay. The remains that

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Speaker 1: they found were later on, I would say within a

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Speaker 1: month or so. We're placed in an urn and were

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Speaker 1: interred in Westminster Abbey by King Charles the Second. But

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Speaker 1: there was some analysis done of the bones. This was

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Speaker 1: done in three I don't know why, but the royalty

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Speaker 1: actually agreed to open up the urn and let somebody

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Speaker 1: examine it. So the burn they didn't burn, the bones

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Speaker 1: and the ashes it was actual. Yeah, And it's weird

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Speaker 1: to me whatever I think, and I know this is

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Speaker 1: confusing to some people. I think of an urn, and

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Speaker 1: I think of a little urn that's got ashes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's big ERNs too, so that's something to clarify. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure why they would choose an urn to put

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Speaker 1: bones in. I'm guessing they piled them up. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they had temper were. Yes, So the analysis was

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Speaker 1: done on the bones and the guy who did it

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Speaker 1: again history has gone back and people have really chewed

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Speaker 1: up his analysis of it. But he said, yeah, they

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Speaker 1: could both be boys, but I can't tell that for sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure one of them is about twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and I think the other ones around ten. They were

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Speaker 1: then sealed back up and no one has ever been

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Speaker 1: allowed to get at him again. You think with modern

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Speaker 1: technology we could just use Yeah. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: gotta say, in a way, I kind of agree with

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Speaker 1: the Royalty in this situation because there's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of coverage of it here and there, and there's a

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Speaker 1: footnote on this story that explains why it became so

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Speaker 1: popular again. But they said, you know, okay, well you

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Speaker 1: could do all this work and you could go ahead

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Speaker 1: and check it out, and you could figure out if

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Speaker 1: they are indeed the bones of those princes, and well,

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Speaker 1: two things are gonna need to be figured out then, One,

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Speaker 1: if they're not what are we supposed to do with

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Speaker 1: the bones? Where do we put them? And to dfill

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Speaker 1: and to it doesn't solve the mystery. No, we still

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Speaker 1: don't know who or why who killed them and specifically

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Speaker 1: why that happened. So it does nothing to solve the mystery.

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Speaker 1: So I can kind of understand, you know, for out

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Speaker 1: of respect reason. Yeah, And I would assume that they

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Speaker 1: just kind of have come to terms with it at

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Speaker 1: this point, right, I mean you can kind of see

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Speaker 1: how maybe in the thirties, you know, it's been a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred years, is maybe somebody in the royal family

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Speaker 1: deeply connected with this story for whatever reason, so they

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Speaker 1: were very interested and very curious to know if you know,

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Speaker 1: this was a valid claim. And and you know, I

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Speaker 1: think since then maybe it's just family has decided well

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Speaker 1: that's just it. Yeah, Yeah, you don't shake it up,

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Speaker 1: you don't shake up behind let it go. That. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing too, is at the royals. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they've got all kinds of people buried in places like

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Speaker 1: Winds Mr At Westminster Abbey, and you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of questionable and maybe maybe not everybody buried in there

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Speaker 1: was part of the royal family, something that was brought

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Speaker 1: up as well. Now we're gonna have to do everybody

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Speaker 1: can of worms. If you exhumed all of their corpses

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Speaker 1: and a lot of extensive DNA testing on all of them,

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Speaker 1: you might find a lot of them were like like

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Speaker 1: not actually the children of the kings. Everybody thought that

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Speaker 1: were the children of all kinds of things like that.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't look like I said, a big can of worms.

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Speaker 1: It's just not a good thing. So because like, for example,

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Speaker 1: you know, imagine that there was actually a break in

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Speaker 1: the lineage somewhere like a couple of hundred years ago,

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Speaker 1: and our present royal family doesn't actually have any legitimate

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Speaker 1: claim to royalty anyway. I mean, that's entirely possible, and

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Speaker 1: that would be a giant scandal. Yeah, well and think

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Speaker 1: about it. Think what that would do to the housewives

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Speaker 1: of America who they got to obsess over. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true. So now we're gonna go ahead and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get into the theory section of everything, And I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna kind of break this up into two subsections. Sure

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Speaker 1: that or not a theories they were murdered or they worked.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to start with they were murdered, So

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Speaker 1: who could have done it? Who could have killed them?

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Speaker 1: Colonel Mustard Candlestick exactly, all right, So our first and

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Speaker 1: most obvious culprit is Richard the third one. Okay, well

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Speaker 1: but and and well you might like some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that's in this theory then, because there's holes in

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Speaker 1: this theory, I think the problem. What do you got? Well,

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Speaker 1: it just seems like he had a pretty solid grip.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like there were a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people running around saying no, you don't have a legitimate claim.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Church was behind him, Most of the

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Speaker 1: powerful people in England were behind him. Parliament later passed

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Speaker 1: a thing that said, yeah, I know these boys don't

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Speaker 1: have any claim. Their mother was on the run. Which

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Speaker 1: was a great argument for why they wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: legitimate sons is that if you have royalty that potentially

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Speaker 1: could somehow revalidate their claim to the throne. That's a threat.

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Speaker 1: But they're not always going to that's true. But if

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Speaker 1: they if they disappeared too, that's kind of like that's

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Speaker 1: kind of like an implicit acknowledgement on your part, if

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Speaker 1: you're Richard the Third that they are the legitimate airs

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Speaker 1: if you felt that that their claim was so strong

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Speaker 1: that you needed to kill them. Well, and the thing

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Speaker 1: is is that there were all these rumors about the

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Speaker 1: boys having been killed, and he never responded to any

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Speaker 1: of those. And he also never opened an investigation as

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Speaker 1: to where were the boys. That's kind of funny that

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Speaker 1: you think somebody would be asking those questions. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they sort of go away, and well, it was everybody,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was rumor. Everybody's we haven't seen the princes, Well,

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Speaker 1: they must have been killed, on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: So it's hard to say. But here's here's the problem

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Speaker 1: with saying, well, Richard must be the one who's responsible

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Speaker 1: for this. In history, it's always written by the people

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Speaker 1: who win the wars. And Richard was only on the

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Speaker 1: throne for I believe two. Yeah, he died in August

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Speaker 1: or Foive, so he wasn't there very long. And this

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Speaker 1: is the time when we're going they're going through the

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Speaker 1: War of the Roses, which is a giant battle between

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Speaker 1: two sides of the family. They got really down and

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Speaker 1: dirty the his Richard, the third side of the family,

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Speaker 1: lost out, and history was written over them. There's things

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Speaker 1: about Richard, that aren't exactly true, that are just accepted

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Speaker 1: commonly is having to be the truth, such as like

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the propaganda the year

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Speaker 1: fed today, you know, in the media out there. And

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Speaker 1: the thing is is that one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you hear is that he had a humped left or

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Speaker 1: right shoulder. In other words, he was physically deformed. And

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Speaker 1: there are paintings of him where he's got a humped shoulder. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They've actually done X ray analysis of those paintings and

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Speaker 1: they were altered at some point after the fact to

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Speaker 1: match that description. Although when they actually discovered his core

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Speaker 1: or his bones on his corps, they just as I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you're aware, you're gonna tell our listeners, they discovered

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Speaker 1: his corps recently, excuse me, his bones again underneath the

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Speaker 1: car park. He did have his back and he had

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Speaker 1: severe scoliosis. So it's quite possible, is that his portrait,

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Speaker 1: Sure that was done while he was king. It was

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Speaker 1: like tactfully he was actually readjusted to look normal. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then somebody went back and said, we'll really make

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Speaker 1: this look like Yeah, that's that's very very likely a possibility. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is that Richard lost the battle and

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Speaker 1: was killed. It's the Battle of bosworth Field is where

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Speaker 1: he's killed, and Henry the Seventh takes over. He was

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Speaker 1: on the Tutor side of the family, so again the

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Speaker 1: opposite side that didn't like his side, and Henry the Seventh,

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Speaker 1: over the course of his reign systematically went through and

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Speaker 1: wiped out the majority of the people that were on

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Speaker 1: I believe the York side of the lineage. We don't

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Speaker 1: know how much of the information that's out there that

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Speaker 1: says that Richard the three is guilty in the one

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Speaker 1: who ordered it's true, because it could be propaganda. Absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, And again I say that like they're they're

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Speaker 1: thirteen and nine, and I think I don't know a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old that, like, you know, their father died

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Speaker 1: of natural causes. Everybody says, you don't have a legitimate thing.

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Speaker 1: You just like take him in and you treat him

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Speaker 1: really well and give him a lot of land. The chances,

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Speaker 1: you know, treat him like your own son, the chances

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Speaker 1: of him coming back and saying, no, I'm the rightful king.

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Speaker 1: I just don't feel like they're that big. And maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe they are. Maybe they were. Maybe he was showing that.

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Speaker 1: But then you kill both of them. Why because if

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Speaker 1: you kill the elder, the younger becomes Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 1: and nine year olds are really really good at holding grudges.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that especially. You know, you got

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Speaker 1: to look at the royal the royals of yourpe, the

374
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Speaker 1: royal families, they were basically crime families. Yea, they're they're

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Speaker 1: like you know, yeah, they were like the corleonest they

376
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Speaker 1: and so the backstabbing, you know, in fighting and fighting

377
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: wasn't and deadly and continually and deadly. So the idea

378
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Speaker 1: that Richard could have taken him and treated him like

379
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: just treated them just one like his own, like his

380
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Speaker 1: own kids, and they would never come back at stabman

381
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Speaker 1: the back and try to take the throne away. Of

382
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Speaker 1: course they would. That is the way it's done, its

383
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: way business is practice. So the next up on the

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Speaker 1: list is a fellow by the name of James Tyrrell.

385
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Speaker 1: I believe it's how you pronounced his name. He was

386
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Speaker 1: a loyal knight to the House of York. He served

387
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Speaker 1: under Richard the Third. Evidently he was quite loyal to Richard,

388
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Speaker 1: though eventually he did leave England and went to France

389
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Speaker 1: and when he came back, he was leading a revolt

390
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Speaker 1: against the monarchy. He came back in fifteen o one,

391
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 1: which it was the tutors at that point. So we've

392
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Speaker 1: got Henry the Seventh is on the crowd and his

393
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: rebellion doesn't go so well, and he's captured, and back

394
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Speaker 1: in those days and in his in terror gation, which

395
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: is actually tortured. Oh man, No, it's more than that though.

396
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: In those days, like we do these days, like whatever,

397
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: we do some really horrible stuff. But what they did,

398
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Speaker 1: I gotta say, if I had to choose between that

399
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: and water boarding, I mean, I'm not gonna watch. I

400
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: gotta wine about water board. Yeah, well, that's a pretty

401
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: civilized torture. Well, during his his interrogation, he supposedly confessed

402
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: to killing the princess. I would have to if somebody

403
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: were doing that to me right now, I would be like, yeah,

404
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: I killed them, Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, I'll confess

405
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: to anything. Hell yeah. So that's the problem. And you

406
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: know the thing is is that we know that information

407
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: gotten out of torture is not reliable. And the other

408
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: issue with it is that there's only one writing or

409
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Speaker 1: one recording of this confession, and it was written thirty

410
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Speaker 1: years afterwards. It was a fellow by the name of

411
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Speaker 1: Thomas Moore wrote this and said that this is what

412
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: came out of it. But he's the only one to

413
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: ever write it, so we don't again have a whole

414
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: lot of support how true it is. There weren't official

415
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: transcripts of the interrogator that. Well, they didn't use their smartphones.

416
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Speaker 1: Come on, man, I know it is. However, from the

417
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Speaker 1: writing of that confession, at least from what I can gather.

418
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Speaker 1: When you hear the story told, and you hear the

419
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Speaker 1: murder of the princess told, it tends to go that

420
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Speaker 1: they were smothered with a pillow in their sleep. So somebody,

421
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: three men went into their room and smothered them. Takes

422
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Speaker 1: three of them, three grown men better, I mean, that's

423
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Speaker 1: herol here. He said that he and two other men

424
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Speaker 1: were the ones who did it, upon the orders of

425
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Speaker 1: the then King Richard the third. And did he give

426
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: a time frame for that? Uh? No, was it before Richard?

427
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: Well it was, it was. It was in It was

428
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: that first year, that first summer that they were in London. Unfortunately,

429
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: he also couldn't say where the boys were buried, which

430
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: is an issue. He said somebody else just took care

431
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: of the bodies, was his way of saying of getting

432
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: out of having that piece of information. And that's actually

433
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: a legitimate I mean, in a sense a little. And

434
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that the bones found in the

435
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: tower are the princes, because it would actually make a

436
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: lot more sense to get rid of the bodies and

437
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: transport them far away or burn them or something, or

438
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: buried them under a set of stairs so nobody finds

439
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: them for two hundred years. Yeah, but obviously they were found,

440
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: whereas by the time they were found, it was it

441
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: didn't affect anybody who was alive. But where they found,

442
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, were they found like just like chilling under

443
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: the stairs, or where they encased in like rock, or

444
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: like they were burying in the dirt and they were

445
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: in a box. They were in a box in the

446
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: dirt is right next to the Thames. If they had

447
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: just taken them out and pitch them into the river

448
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: and they you know, they would have been, that would

449
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: have been. But that nobody would bat an eye and

450
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: those days that a corpse floating down the Thames. True,

451
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: but people would see you leaving with the corpses of children,

452
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: which were not things that usually left to the tower grounds.

453
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: So there there's an issue with that. I know where

454
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: you're headed with it, and I like it, and it

455
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: makes sense, it's simpler. But I can also think we

456
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: don't want any witnesses at all because people just never

457
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: stop talking about things they see. We just don't want

458
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: to talk about, especially in England. But yeah, but the

459
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: whole thing about it is I'm not I'm not saying

460
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: you just walk out with the corpse slug over your shoulder.

461
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: You stuff them at a barrel or something like that first,

462
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, and then you put them on bring out

463
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: your dead. They put them my stuff in a barrel

464
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: and put them on a hand truck, you know, and

465
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: just wheel them out to the front gate and says

466
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to take back this empty and get us

467
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: a full one, and then nobody nobody's true. It's yeah,

468
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: I know that that is a possibility, but it doesn't

469
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: seem to be the way it happened. So let's move

470
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: on to our next suspect, which is a guy by

471
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: the name of Henry Stafford. Stafford at the time this

472
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: is again three was another very popular supporter of Richard

473
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: the third. He then very quickly changed allegiances and is

474
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: said to have tried to mount a rescue for the princes,

475
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: and upon discovering that they were already dead for some means,

476
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is, switched his allegiance then

477
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: over to Henry Tutor Henry the seventh, and he was

478
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: quite quickly captured and executed. In so he has considered

479
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: a possibility for the murderer, yes, because it's it's possible

480
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: that he went ahead and he's the one who actually

481
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: killed the boys to weaken Richard the third stands because

482
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: oh look at this guy, we want this guy as king.

483
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: He killed children again to undermine his reputation. But for me,

484
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: the timeline on this doesn't work because he was executed

485
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: for treason on November two, so that even if he

486
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: did supposedly try to mount this rescue, that would mean

487
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: the boys had to have been dead months prior to that,

488
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: so basically June they had to have been killed right

489
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: around the time that Richard said I'll take the throne,

490
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: well pretty much when they arrived. So now, if if

491
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: this guy was the killer Henry Staffory Stafford, okay, so

492
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: if this guy, Henry Stafford was the killer then and

493
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: he mounts this raid, so obviously then he killed them

494
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: months before. He stashed the body somewhere, so he wanted

495
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: to like mount this raid, go in, find about it

496
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: of the children, you know, put out theatrical show shock

497
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: and dismay and everything like that, Right, and then that

498
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: will discredit Richard the third and strengthened his side. Is

499
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: that is that the idea behind this theory. No, the

500
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: theory is that he was going to mount a rescue

501
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: and rescue the princes to restore them to the throne. Yeah,

502
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: but when they he found out that they were dead,

503
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: he turned around and supported Tutor. No, but the theory

504
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: of him killing oh yes, yes, yes, you're that That

505
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: is one way that that theory has gone is that

506
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: he went in and had them killed to then mount

507
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: the supposed rescue and discover them corpses. But yeah, there

508
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: is one big flaw with the logic of that theory.

509
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: How do you know they're under the stairs exactly? How

510
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: how exactly you know where to look with their little corpses? Yes,

511
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: there is a gigantic issue there. Yeah. So so next

512
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: up on the lineup, and I admit this is a

513
00:30:54,440 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: very tenuous, tenuous theory that Shakespeare No, no, Shakespeare is

514
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: actually the reason that Richard the third kind of is

515
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: also revered as a villain, but he is not considered

516
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: one of the people who could have killed princess. So

517
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: now this one is uh, Margaret Beaufort. She is the

518
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: mother of the future King Henry, the seventh King. Henry

519
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: is a tutor. Yes, people say that it is possible

520
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: that she from Afar orchestrated and ordered their deaths in

521
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: order to help solidify her son's claim to the throne.

522
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: It makes sense accepted that if you think about if

523
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: you see the way that how far away from the

524
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: throne Henry was at that time, It really seems like

525
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: a serious stretch to me. I don't know, He's at

526
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: the throne like a couple of years later, right, So

527
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: his claim couldn't have been that week, wasn't He didn't

528
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: have the strongest claim in the world. And really, by

529
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: having killed the king and asserted himself as king and

530
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: taken power is sort of how he would have had invalidated. Well,

531
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: I guess that's it's he who holds the crowd, So

532
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, if we're going to look at

533
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: this in terms of, you know, it's one thing to

534
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: like go into like actual battle with a king that

535
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: is a grown man. It's another thing to like murder

536
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: two children. So if you're going to say, Okay, what's

537
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: the best way to get this person off of the

538
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: throne and reassert our family's claim to the throne, Well,

539
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: you vilify the current king and at the same time,

540
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: two birds one stone get rid of the actual legitimate

541
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: claim to the throne of these sons. So you murder

542
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: the son's and frame it like it was Richard the

543
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: third and then, you know, so there will be a

544
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: certain public there will be a certain like voice in

545
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: the back of people's head thinking like, well, they disappeared.

546
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: Maybe he them. He he's the kind of guy who

547
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: would have killed That's exactly why she's on the list.

548
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: I just personally find it to have too many convenient leaps.

549
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: And you know what, it's weird that I like this

550
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: one more than I like Richard. You've just got a

551
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: soft spot in your heart for Richard, that's all it's.

552
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: I think it's because I would have probably done what

553
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: Margaret did. Could she could have been part of an

554
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: overarching conspiracy to bring Henry the Seventh to the throne.

555
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: But so the question is, is like, let's say she

556
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: had a hand in it, so it could it could

557
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: go a couple of different ways. Her her agents could

558
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: murder the princes and then dispose of the bodies, so

559
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: they effectively had disappeared. And so at that point, doesn't

560
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: Richard mounts like a little search, a little search and

561
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: rescue inside the tower to find the kids and find

562
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: out where the hell they went to. Doesn't he like

563
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: start interrogating and and torturing all the various people who

564
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: would have had access to them, You would think, but

565
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: if he worried about that, but we never heard of

566
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: that happening, well, you know, but seriously, you know, he's

567
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: he's he may not he might not be sad and

568
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: sorry that the kids are gone, but he recognized it

569
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: that their death presents a serious problems, or their disappearance

570
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: creates a serious issue. I wonder if he just assumed

571
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: that like their mother came and got them up from school,

572
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: had a note, I mean, obviously not that right, but

573
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: that somebody helped. I don't know, you would think that

574
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: somebody would have somebody would have noticed and somebody would

575
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 1: have so so so again, if said they were murdered

576
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: their little corpses were found there, then Richard could like,

577
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: I guess that's in a Sanchia kind of putting a

578
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: turd in his pocket because you got in. He murdered

579
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: the kids, left their bodies there, and now Richard, Richard

580
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: and his agents look at that and saying, well, everybody's

581
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: gonna be looking at us. I guess we should like

582
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: sweep the sound of the rug. Maybe yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

583
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: I mean people didn't tend to come out and cry wolf,

584
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: Well you did air that longer, So let me just

585
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: you know, play Devil's advocate here, right. So, Okay, Richard

586
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: does mount very like a secret search, right because he's

587
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: not going to be like, ah, we lost the princes.

588
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: Oh no, because that's a bad idea for publicity. So

589
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: anounces the search. He finds out they've been murdered, and

590
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: he says, there's literally no way I can spend this

591
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: so that people believe it wasn't me. Yeah, probably, so

592
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: let's just ignore it and just you know, I think

593
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: that's the that's the way that you kind of have

594
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: to do with something, and that brings us to our

595
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: final potential culprit, the man himself, Henry the seventh. So

596
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: people say that it is possible that Henry the seventh

597
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: had the boys killed from afar much This runs in

598
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: the same vein as the theory that his mother did.

599
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: It's because he was in exile in France at the time,

600
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: or there are theories that when he took the throne.

601
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: So this is five, this is two years after the

602
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: boys went to the Tower of London, that it is

603
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: possible that the boys were still alive but secreted away

604
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: in the tower and he had them killed because he

605
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: didn't want them to have the legitimate claim. And the

606
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: reason that the theory states that maybe they were still

607
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: alive is that in July of five there was a

608
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: regulation issued by Richard the third Household that stated the

609
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: children should be together at one breakfast. Doesn't say what children,

610
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any reference to where or who, But

611
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: people have construed that to say possibly the boys were

612
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: still alive and just secreted away could mean that could

613
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: mean anything else too. Yeah, I mean there were children

614
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: because there were children living in the tower, right, Yeah, Yeah,

615
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: people lived there. People lived there, they had families, they

616
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: had children, But maybe all he was saying was that

617
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: the children should all be at the children's table and

618
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: not pastor in the adults at the big table. Yeah,

619
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: maybe he had them alive for a couple of years

620
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: to kind of suss out if you know Edward was

621
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: going to be like I am, I'm thirteen. I know

622
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: I'm thirteen, but I'm the king, So let's get this

623
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: going again, because there's different temperaments. Yeah, there definitely is

624
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: a tradition of these kids coming back and like murdering

625
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: everybody else. But you know, maybe he keeps them alive

626
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: for a couple of years and then decides to know

627
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: they actually are a legitimate threat, let's kill them. Maybe.

628
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what did what did Edward die of?

629
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: Didn't they die of like like acute a cute lead

630
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: poisoning or something? I don't know. You know, he was

631
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: sick for three weeks, and I could never find that

632
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't like a sickness. He was sick. I mean,

633
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 1: it was ill, but I can never find exactly what

634
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: he could have been. It could have been poisoning. I

635
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: mean that that kind of stuff happened all the time

636
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: back in those days. I guess that question leads to

637
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: don't know if you have this theory of um, you know,

638
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: maybe they just had what he had and we do

639
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: have something to go along with that, so we'll get

640
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: to that. I do have one little footnote here for

641
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: Henry the seventh, which is kind of funny, is that

642
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: do you remember that act that I talked about that

643
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: was passed by parliament that said the boys were not

644
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: legitimate regius. Yeah, something like that. Well, Henry the seventh

645
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: repealed that and he took the throne. Interesting now, some

646
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: people say that he did that because he didn't agree

647
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: with what Richard had done, But then there's also the

648
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: fact that he was courting and was going to potentially

649
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: marry one of their sisters, one of the young Prince's sisters,

650
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: to bring the houses together. And indeed he did eventually

651
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: marry somebody from the York side of the family and

652
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: end the War of the Roses via blood. And obviously, yeah,

653
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: if you want that kid to have that that that's

654
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: super lineage, then you have to re establish the legitimacy. Yes,

655
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: and that's he did it so that they were legitimate again.

656
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: So then when he married, there was none of these

657
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: issues again. But so that that brings us to the

658
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: end of they were murdered. So if the princess weren't killed,

659
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 1: then what happened to him? Okay, well they were. They

660
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: were misplaced and they still haven't found them. The longest

661
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: game of hide and seek happen to be all the time.

662
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: You know how many times today? Just my glasses? Yeah, well,

663
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: here we go. So it's known that the young King

664
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: Edward the five was suffering from an illness, which is

665
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: where you were headed just a minute ago, Devon. I

666
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: don't know what that illness is. I couldn't find detail

667
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: of what it is. So it's quite possible that he died,

668
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: either from his illness or from whatever from whatever treatment

669
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: he was getting for that illness. The treatments were pretty

670
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: back in those days. Yeah, I was like, oh, let's

671
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: put some slugs on and we'll see what happens in

672
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: their head. Yeah, So we don't know if that's you know,

673
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: that could be how he died. Yeah, and those you know,

674
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: those diseases especially are fairly communico he had, like the

675
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: plague for instance, He probably didn't because everyone have the plague.

676
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: But if he had, you know, the plague, his little

677
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: brother definitely would have gotten it from him, right, and

678
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: then they just but we know that he was ill.

679
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: So that leaves us with his brother, Richard, the Duke

680
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: of York. Now, I know all of our listeners are screaming,

681
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: but Steve, what about the theories where he survives? There

682
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: aren't any. I haven't come across any solid theories that

683
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: say that the young King could have possibly survived and

684
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: escaped the Tower of Lund. Now you're talking. You still

685
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: are talking, correct, Yes? Yes, well you know if obviously,

686
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: boy King, if you're listening to us years later, all right, well,

687
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: there are theories that young Richard escaped on his own

688
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 1: or with help, we don't know, and that he fled

689
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: the country. This was something that actually plagued Henry the

690
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 1: seventh because in four eight seven, man by the name

691
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: of Lambnert Lambert Simnel claimed to be Richard came forward

692
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: and was claiming to be the young boy they now

693
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: would be the legitimate boy king. Uh. He then eventually

694
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,479
Speaker 1: changed his story to say that no, he wasn't the

695
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: the young King, he was just another royal named Edward Plagenet, Plantagenet, Plantagenet,

696
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: Edward Plantagenet. So what what back? In those days was

697
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: the penalty for impersonating royalty. It was usually pretty bad,

698
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: yea death. But he was very very young when this happened,

699
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: when he made these claims of appropriate age, he was

700
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: very close to it. Yes, so it was possible that

701
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: it could have been him, well, Henry. They obviously arrested him, Henry.

702
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like took pity on him and pardoned him

703
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: because he was pardoned, and he was allowed to work

704
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: in the royal kitchens until he died four or fifty

705
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: years later. He worked for the royal family for the

706
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: rest of his life. Huh, Well that was that was

707
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: very nice, unusual but yes, yeah, for for a guy

708
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: like Henry, that seems really kind. Yes, yeah, I'm not

709
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: sure if I was Henry, if I won't to have

710
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: that guy preparing my food? Yeah yeah, who knows exactly

711
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: what the circumstances were. But not too long after that,

712
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: So now we're jumping ahead another four years, we have

713
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: another person coming forward and claiming to be Richard. And

714
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: this was a man who eventually was discovered to be

715
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: named Perkin Warbeck. And he went to Ireland. He went

716
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: all over, but he went to Ireland, and that's where

717
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: his story really gained traction and he got a bunch

718
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: of support, and he got an army together, and he

719
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: came back to England to take the throne back. That

720
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: didn't go so well. His army was routed, he was captured,

721
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: he recanted his story, and then they executed him. Yeah,

722
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: so that seems like Ireland at that time would have

723
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: been a really easy place to be, Like, hey, I

724
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: have some kind of vague claim against some people. A

725
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: lot of people convinced he had royalty, offering their daughters

726
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: to him for marriage. I mean, this guy was evidently

727
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: a pretty good con man, real deal or he was

728
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: a real deal. But the only other theory about what

729
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: have happened to if one of them escaped is that

730
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: they escaped and they lived out their life unknown. Unlikely,

731
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: doesn't It does a little bit. But actually, you know,

732
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: when you think about it, uh yeah, you would think

733
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: that they would have come out of the closet sooner

734
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: or later. I mean, I mean, essentially after the reconciliation

735
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: between the two sides of the family. I could see

736
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: why they would stay hidden until then. Yeah. But but

737
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: what's interesting to me as the pretenders, the two pretenders

738
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: pretended to be Richard and not Edward the Fifth, Yes,

739
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: because it could just as easily have been Edward who

740
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: escaped the tower. And so why people would pretend to

741
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: be Richard instead of Edward is kind of beyond me,

742
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: I use less dangerous. Well though, I actually think it's

743
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: because he was the younger and so he therefore is

744
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: harder to I d in his paintings because he's still

745
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: a boy. He's still a very young boy. His facial features,

746
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, I mean you look at somebody, Yeah, you

747
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: take a picture of somebody at nine, and you take

748
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: a picture of him at twenty, and they look similar,

749
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: but you couldn't say that it was this guy, or

750
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: maybe the guy sitting next to him in a restaurant

751
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: was actually who that nine year old was. So I

752
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: think that it's because he was so young that was

753
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 1: easier and not as recognized. People didn't see him as much. Well. Yeah,

754
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: and also like if you say, hey, I am Richard,

755
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: I'm not the oldest son, I do believe that you

756
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: may have a better claim than me. That's much safer

757
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: than saying I'm Edward and that's my throne, right, very possible,

758
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: but that unfortunately ladies and gentlemen's where the story ends.

759
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: Those are the theories that we've got, except for the

760
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 1: part where we solved the mystery. Okay, it's Joe's mystery solving,

761
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: all right, So let's let's get out your magical mystery

762
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: book and tell me, Joe, who which one of these

763
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: theories do you you're back? Which do you think it is?

764
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: Actually none of them? Really, Let's get back to the

765
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: early part of the story of the Ravens. How big

766
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: they are, could easily have carried away a couple of

767
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: small kids, right, except the Ravens are always incageous. They

768
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: didn't escape. No, no, let me thank, let me thank

769
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: any other ones? So, uh, what do you got? Which?

770
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: I like Henry's mom yea for it because I think, yeah,

771
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: I don't know why I have this particular fondness in

772
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: my heart for women of that era doing particularly treacherous

773
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: things to further their son's goals in life, but I do.

774
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: That's like one of my favorite things because there's a

775
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: there's a good documented history of this kind of thing

776
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: happening where women would have a son and they would

777
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: think this guy, he's got a legitimate claim to the throne.

778
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something about it. And I think, yeah,

779
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: so I like her. I like her killing the boys

780
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: or them being sick and dying, and Richard being like, well,

781
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: maybe we should just sweep this underthrock. Yeah, SIPI dad, Richard.

782
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: You know probably at that point in time, you know,

783
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: you got you got a twelve year old kid who's

784
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: now the king, and you're in this have a turmoil.

785
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: Maybe the kids sick too. Maybe time for me to

786
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: pull a few strings and do some bit of stuff

787
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: and take over the throne. And like you said, maybe

788
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: she did had the kids murdered not only as a

789
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: part of the scheme to bring Henry back, but also

790
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: to discredit Richard. She's got kind of two for there.

791
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: I a good reason. I like that one. I personally,

792
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 1: I think the one that I back, which still has

793
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: its holes. But I think that James Tyrrell might possibly

794
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: have been telling the truth because he was known to

795
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: be a pretty you know, he really followed every order

796
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: he got from the king at the time, essentially well,

797
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: but we don't know, see, And this is something that

798
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: I came across in some of my reading, is that

799
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: it might have been that Richard could have simply said

800
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: I wish I didn't have to deal with those brats anymore.

801
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: I wish they just weren't. They just weren't in the

802
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: way he goes, oh that was a secret wink wink,

803
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: order and take care of things. Or he was just

804
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: like I like to do anything to make my master happy. Yes, yes,

805
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 1: or perhaps he just really enjoyed murdering children. Quite possible. Yeah,

806
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, this is uh my, my, my thing with

807
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: this is again, history is written by the winners, and

808
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: that's what makes this one difficult. There may have been

809
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: a lot of details that were known at the time

810
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: that didn't get recorded, or got recorded and destroyed. So no,

811
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure if you know, if they all kinds of

812
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: people wandering around the tower, and there must have been

813
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: all kinds of people who saw the kids and had

814
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: some inkling of what had happened to them, and a

815
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: lot of people could have said, you know, well it

816
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: was about this time that the kids just sort of disappeared,

817
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: and all those little details, like you said, are just

818
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 1: lost there. Unless somebody uncovers the manuscript one of these days,

819
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: it will probably be some workmen, you know. Uh well, yeah,

820
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: well I gotta say too that those those those bones

821
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: of those kids. They may or may not be the

822
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: two Princes, but there's a lot of there's a lot

823
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: of other stairways in the Tower of London, and there's

824
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: probably all kinds of bones hidden in that place there

825
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: all over the ground. They've done that and accidentally found

826
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: lots and lots of bones and lots and lots of places. Yeah,

827
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: that they have not yet uncovered the two Princes if

828
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: they're still in the town. The tower of the grounds

829
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: of the Tower of London are chucked full of corpses

830
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: because right outside the Tower of London is where they

831
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: used to hang in behead everybody and then they bring

832
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: him inside and bury them, and they there's so many

833
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: stories about corpses being found everywhere in that place. Yeah,

834
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: I guess say, I don't want to be there during

835
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: the zombie apocalypse. Yeah, Well, ladies and gentlemen. That is

836
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 1: the end of today's story. Now, as always, the research

837
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: links for this particular story will be up on the website.

838
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: That website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. If you

839
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: have any thoughts or comments, you can go ahead and

840
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: do that right on the website, or if you want,

841
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: you can also go ahead and send us an email.

842
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: Are email address is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Yeah,

843
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: and we actually have some listener mail. I know, we

844
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: do actually get a good amount of listener mail, but

845
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: sometimes we get suggestions or you know, things stick out

846
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: at us and we just want to read them. So

847
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: I really love going out to our email box. It's

848
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: almost like you know when you were a kid and

849
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: you'd run out to the mailbox at your house every day.

850
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, click on it. Yes, yeah, And actually you

851
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: don't do what the intern does that well, you know

852
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: in our comments on our website go there too, so

853
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: we need to check all that stuff out. But this

854
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: one is from a guy named Tom Williams and he's

855
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: from London, which is super awesome, and he says, hello,

856
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: Sideways Thinkers. I've been listening to your podcast for a

857
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: long time, with one of my favorite episodes being the

858
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: Blue Signal. Yeah, that's why you want to On the

859
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: subject of signals, have you guys ever thought about the

860
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: the miss Wow signal sent back from outer space in

861
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: ninety seven and we have, Actually we were just talking

862
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: about this. I've been uh. We the listener suggestions we

863
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: get are always the like really big ones, you know,

864
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: they're always the really giant mysteries that you want to

865
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: invest a lot of time. And so I have been

866
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: investing sometime in this one, and we will be recording

867
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: one soon, you know. I gotta admit It's It's funny

868
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: is when we look when we're looking for stuff, I'm

869
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: so aware of the Wow some of the crosses. So

870
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: many times it didn't even come up on radars. Is

871
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: what I'm I'm doing searches or whatever to try to

872
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: find topics. I know that one and that one is

873
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: so cool that I just automatically go, oh, the while

874
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: signal keep going because and not to say that I

875
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: don't want to do what I'm just it's just so

876
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: embedded in my brain and for me, the Wow signal

877
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: and you know, a couple other ones have been kind

878
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: of on my radar for a long time, even since

879
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: the beginning of us talking about doing the show. But

880
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: I just have always thought that so much research, there's

881
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: so much stuff out there on this to do it

882
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: is just going to be a huge undertaking. Yeah. It's

883
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: also the other thing about the wild signal is not

884
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: not to say that we're not going to do it,

885
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: because of course we will we'll tackle this and we'll

886
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: solve this damn mystery. But it's one of those things

887
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: that you see so often, and I try to find

888
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: the more obscure little mysteries like those you like the

889
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: big ones. Yeah, there you go, but sweet but yeah,

890
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: good suggestion. Wow is all I can say. Ha ha ha.

891
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: You can listen to the episode right on the website

892
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 1: as well, or most likely you're downloading it from my tunes,

893
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 1: which is where most people get it. If you're on iTunes,

894
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: go ahead and take the time to subscribe and leave

895
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: us a rating. Those kind of things really great to know,

896
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: and they let other people find out about us. If

897
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: you forget to download a show and you're run around,

898
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: you realize there's gonna be a new one out. You

899
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 1: can always listen to us on Stitcher from your mobile phone.

900
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: You can just stream it right there, easy as that.

901
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: And last, but certainly not least, go a head and

902
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: uh find us on Facebook. I know we've got a

903
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 1: bunch of people have been tracking us down on Facebook lately,

904
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: and we're getting a ton of activity, which is awesome.

905
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna have some really good conversations with folks about

906
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: some really cool things so definitely definitely go ahead and

907
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 1: find us on that. And uh, with that, ladies and gentlemen,

908
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and sign this one off. We

909
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and we'll talk to you next week. Everybody,

910
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: Bye bye,