1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 3: Our colleague Matt is on Adventures. They called me Ben. 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 3: We are joined with our guest producer, Matt the Madman. Still, 8 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 3: most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Uh No. 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: Should we give a. 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: Little bit of context before we get into today's story. 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: I guess so to why we might sound a little punchy, 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: a little bit different, Yeah, a little different. We are 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: coming to you, not live live for us. I guess 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: from the web summit in Qatar? What do you say Ben? 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: Is it cut her or kutar? 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: It? 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: Usually when you pronounce it in the Western world, it's 19 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,639 Speaker 3: okay to say Qatar. People know what you're talking about. 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 3: The correct pronunciation, from what I understand, is something more 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 3: like cultter cutter. 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: And we are in the wonderful, beautiful, very futuristic city 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: of Doha. 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 3: That is correct. We will be rejoining Matt now. People 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: know that we've been on the road quite a bit, 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: quite a bit looking forward to being homeward bound. As 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: Paul Simon and Three Dogs once said. 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: The three dog the Night of the three Dogs. 29 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 3: Do you know why it's called three dog night. 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: I've never really looked at so that bank just used 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: my imagination and had probably my own narrative or with 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: the three dogs and that night question. 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: Apparently because apparently three dog night is inspired by this 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: idiom or this saying in Australia that when things get 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: really cold you would sleep with three of your dogs 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: instead of one. 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: Why not make it an even four. 38 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: I don't know what a four dog night looks like. 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: We are very much punching kids. Yeah, it's funny for us, 40 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 3: as we wanted to. You know, there are so many 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 3: parts of the world that remain unexplored. Here in this 42 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 3: part of the world, there's so much hidden history. Getting 43 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 3: in we saw, you know, ancient cities out and forts 44 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: out in the desert. Maybe we'll be able to visit them. 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: But tonight today we have something more on our minds. 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 3: We have a true story of hidden history. Over in 47 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 3: China's Sichuan province, right on the edge of Tibet, there's 48 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 3: this massive collection of mysterious stone towers, and to this 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: day people still argue about what they are, who built them, 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: or why. This is kind of a Tibet episode as well. 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and it is a hidden history episode. 52 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: We are here Ben and I for some ridiculous history activities. 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: So this is almost like a crossover in a way, 54 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 2: right it. 55 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: Very much is? It very much is. And we can't 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: shout out our guest super producer, Matt well enough, who's 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: gonna be so so freaking tired of us? 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: No? No, no, we're great, We're nice. 59 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: Yeah you say that now Matt's doing just that. 60 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: Out. 61 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, that's our We're gonna pause for a 62 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: word from our sponsors and then we'll dive in. 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 64 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: Here are the facts. No, let's travel to switch one China. 65 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: Let's why not. We're already on the road. What's another 66 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: ten hour flight between friends? 67 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: That was the thing. I remember. It was obnoxious because 68 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: I realized it the moment when we hadn't slept and 69 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 3: I thought, dang, Remember I was telling you, like, if 70 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: I know where you're going with yeah, if I just 71 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: kept going Japan, yeah that I will have circumnavigated the globe. 72 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: Oh, man, I think you should do it. Ben, I 73 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: fully support you, and I think iHeart Financing will also 74 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: support this endeavor. 75 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: Do you want to go? 76 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: Yes? 77 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: Do you want to go? Matt? What are you doing later? 78 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: And Matt says okay, yeah, yeah, all right. 79 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: So if we do that, then on the way we 80 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: will fly over Sichuan, we'll fly over part of Tibet. 81 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 3: What's your do you remember? Do you remember back in 82 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: the nineteen I want to say the nineteen nineties when 83 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: a lot of Western musicians rallied for a Tibetan concert. 84 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: The Tibetan Freedom Concert, I believe founded by the Beastie Boys. 85 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: The Beastie Boys, they were really a big part of that. 86 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: Adam Yauch I believe was his name, was a big 87 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: booster for the Tibetan freedom movement and that was a massive, 88 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: very nineties series of concerts. Bands like the Smashing Pumpkins performed, 89 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: and it was all what was the deal that what 90 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: was Tibet was under the yoke of an impressive government. Essentially, 91 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: critics will say, so, yeah, Tibet is technically it's an 92 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: autonomous zone. This means that the larger government of China 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: still ultimately controls the area, and for critics this is 94 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 2: quite controversial, right, but they do have a spiritual leader 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: in the Dali Lamak, right. 96 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and we're giving you this to kind of 97 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: situate these sitution. Yes, though a high five. You earned it, 98 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 3: so we high fived on that one. So this is 99 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: to sichuanuate amazing the province of Sichuan, which is sort 100 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: of to the if you look into map, it's kind 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: of to the right, or it's adjacent to Tibet. 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: It's a basin if I'm not mistaken. 103 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, could you tell us a little bit more about that. 104 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: Bordered on all sides by mountains and highlands. To the north, 105 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: the kin Or Shin Mountains, I believe it's a q 106 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: i n situation. Stretching from the east to the west. 107 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: To the northeast, we have the Daba Mountains and then 108 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: the Dahalu Mountains form much of the southern border. To 109 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: the east, it's dominated by the Wu Mountains, home to 110 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: the legendary yang Tsi Gorges, some gorgeous gorges if you 111 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: ask me. Then to the west we have the Daksu 112 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: Mountains of the Tibetan borderlands. 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is we're describing things that are absolutely 114 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: stunning views. So when you think about this, think of, 115 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: you know, so many adventure films you've seen in the West, 116 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: so many Chinese produced epic action adventures. There. We're also 117 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: talking about in real life some of the most diverse 118 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: collections of ethnic groups in all of the nation of China, 119 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: because on the eastern side, that's where most of the 120 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: people live, and it's pretty densely populated, and you go 121 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: to the west, it's definitely still a rarian there's more 122 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: agriculture based industries. Even though it has modernized very quickly, 123 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: there's still a lot of people who retain their own 124 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: somewhat separate. 125 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: Beliefs community cultural identity. Perfect. 126 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's the Han, which is, you know, the dominance 127 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 3: kind of ethnicity of China, the Ye, the Mong, the Tujia, 128 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: the Hue. And of course they're there are oh and 129 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: the way are practitioners. 130 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,559 Speaker 2: Of Islam, and they're also way cool. 131 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 3: They're also cool. Sorry, So we said a little bit 132 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: about this, like they they want to maintain their autonomy, right, 133 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: and uh, they have this kind of paradigmatic maybe not 134 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: a word pushe there. It is just say with confidence. 135 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: They make it a they're at longerheads sometimes with this 136 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: push for modernity versus this powerful need, this compulsion to 137 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: retain one's cultural identity. 138 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: History is very important to them. 139 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nuts. You can even see it in the language, 140 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: that's right. 141 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: For example, the Han speak a southern dialect of Mandarin, 142 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: which I know that you've been studying for quite some time. 143 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: They're just Mandarin in general, and I know there are 144 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: many many flavors of Mandarin, to the point where it 145 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: can be absolutely overwhelming to even settle. 146 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: On one right dialects. Yeah, A way to compare it 147 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: would be not even counting Cantonese. 148 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: Right. 149 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: A way to compare it I was thinking about this 150 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 3: would be to talk about different dialects of English that 151 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: we have, because you know, I don't I don't know 152 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: if there's a hot take, and all with great affection 153 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: to our friends up in the Scottish Highlands. Sometimes you 154 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: know it's tough. Oh yeah, it's tough for me to tell. 155 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: Can't watch train Spotting without the subtitles on. 156 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: Let's put it that way. 157 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, is that too far? 158 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 2: No? Is that too far? That's the truth. And I mean, 159 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 2: if you experience it and you live with it, and 160 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: you're surrounded by a lot you can definitely take it in, 161 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: but it is something that you have to train your 162 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: ears to recognize the difference. Even though we know English 163 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: and they are speaking English, are there slang? There are 164 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: various prounciations. There is a rhythm and a cadence to 165 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: the language that is just different from what we would 166 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: know as modern standard English, right. 167 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So this gives us a way to compare 168 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: the experience with this mix of people in this very 169 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: diverse area. Because everybody will speak the lingua franca, the 170 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: idea of you know, the Southern Mandarin dialect, but different 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: communities will use Turkish and Arabic in their religious really 172 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: yeah yeah, I didn't realize that. So what we're saying 173 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: is for a long time, this has been a really 174 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 3: fascinating land. It's witnessed empires rise and full and. 175 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: We are back to the Han as well. By the way, 176 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: just I know, we kind of took a little detour 177 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: just talking about language, but we started off with the 178 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: Han and the way they speak this southern dialect of Mandarin, 179 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 2: which also can consist of some of this Turkish and 180 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,359 Speaker 2: Arabic kind of flavor. 181 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 3: Depending on the communities. Yeah, so for centuries traveling into 182 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 3: or out of Sichuan because of those mountains you described, 183 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: it was very difficult. It was treacherous. It was difficult 184 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: just to get there, much much more difficult, or to 185 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: say nothing of actually holding the land. And it's also 186 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 3: this was something. This was one of the side notes 187 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: that I think delighted the two of us and Matt. 188 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 3: We hope it delights you too, So at least, you know, 189 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 3: just back us up, man, just yes and yeah, all right, Okay, 190 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: what are two dumb facts we learned about Sichuan. 191 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: Well, it is the home of kung paw chicken, which 192 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 2: I'm a fan of, claimed claimed home and speaking of cuisine, 193 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I think I asked you this off, Mike, 194 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: But Sichuan the name of the region, it is spelled 195 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: differently than Seschuan, the seasoning or the genre of flavor 196 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: profile absolution cuisine. Right, Yeah, you nailed it, important distinction. So, yes, 197 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: home of kung pou chicken, which is a spicy, you know, 198 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: kind of brown sauce peanut based dish. 199 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 3: Peanuts are big there and even now, isolation often reigns 200 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: in the area. Despite you know, the massive successful push 201 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: for modernization, the dialect thing is still an issue. People 202 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: one valley over may speak an entirely different dialect. So 203 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: imagine just walking literally walking the space of a few 204 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: football fields. Sure, and then the people at the other end, 205 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: at that other valley, they speak something where you could 206 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: you could communicate with each other in writing, but if 207 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 3: you just tried to just have a chat like we're 208 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 3: having now, you wouldn't understand. 209 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: Each other a little bit of a maybe you know, 210 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: false equivalency. But think about neighborhoods in someplace like New 211 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: York City, where between various neighborhoods you're going to have 212 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 2: like a difference in culture, you know, almost immediately as 213 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: you you know, cross a certain boundary. 214 00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 3: Or I'll say it. 215 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: You said it, and I'm gonna back you up. Another 216 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: weird fact that's not that weird, but it's very interesting, 217 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: is that this region is also a natural environment for 218 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: giant pandas. 219 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: Yes, that is true, fellas, I love it, and and 220 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 3: that the initiative to save the giant pandas pretty amazing. 221 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: It might be something we do on ridiculous history, yeah, 222 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 3: which will also be recording. 223 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: That's true. And in our home place of Atlanta, Georgia, 224 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: the Atlanta Zoo has for a long time been home 225 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: to some giant pandas from this region that were very 226 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 2: very popular attractions, and also our zoo. You know, I 227 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: think what you will about zoos in general is very 228 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: conservation focused. 229 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And just to keep it a little bit conspiratorial. 230 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: You know, one fact, not everybody learns about the giant 231 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 3: pandas they are all owned by China. 232 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: That's right, they were like leased out the essentially to 233 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: the Atlanta Zoo. It was. It's a cultural exchange in 234 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: many ways that is very important. 235 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: And so what we're saying here about this place in particular, 236 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 3: this isolated place with so much history, so many different cultures. 237 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: We're telling you all of this, fellow conspiracy realists, to 238 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: give ourselves and to give you a sense of place 239 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,479 Speaker 3: and to set up the second act of this episode. 240 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: Because it's isolated, yes, it accessible, it's a huge area, 241 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: it's historically self sufficient. It's got a big population, similar 242 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 3: to Tibet. Especially the further west you go, this becomes 243 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: a place all its. 244 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: Own very much so. Even now in twenty twenty five, 245 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: as we record this episode, experts wonder about. They continue 246 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: to wonder and speculate about the hidden history of these 247 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: lands of this region. So perhaps the most mysterious feature, 248 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: which is the topic of part two of this episode, 249 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: Scattered throughout the area, an enigmatic collection of star shaped 250 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: towers have been erected at some point in time, ancient 251 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: stone and wood structures reaching toward the heavens like some 252 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: sort of ben You described it beautifully here in the 253 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: outline Eldritch version of one hundred foot plus skyscraper straight 254 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: out of some sort of Lovecraftian nightmare escape. 255 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 256 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're also beautiful. 257 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: They're also beautiful, and they're older than dynasties, they're older 258 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 3: than empires. They've survived earthquakes, they could have obliterated more 259 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: modern constructions. And this is what's fascinating about this aspect 260 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 3: of it is it reminds me a bit of you know, 261 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: we mentioned Lovecraft, HP Lovecraft stories. He has things like 262 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: the Plateau of Lang or so on. This feels like 263 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: a mystery that needs to be solved. And surprisingly enough, 264 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 3: it took more than one thousand years for someone a 265 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: traveling Westerner who are about to meet to ask hey, 266 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: What the heck are the these things? What on earth 267 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: is going on here? 268 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: And we're going to meet our star player after a 269 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: quick word from our sponsor. 270 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. All right, let's get this 271 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: out of the way first. Sure, Thank goodness, no one 272 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 3: claims to have as you would say, Noel discovered these towers. 273 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: That's right. All the locals knew about them. I mean 274 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: they were a pron prominent feature of the landscape for 275 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 2: you know, thousands of years. No One, however, in living memory, 276 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: had used these things, you know, for any sort of 277 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: functional purpose. 278 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 3: Right, You're absolutely right, nobody in living memory. Is important 279 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: to note people are not using these right. You go 280 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: to some maybe ancient towns in Turkey or in Europe 281 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: or other parts of the world, and you'll see people 282 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 3: still living in very old strip absolutely but not here, 283 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 3: and no one is much research on them. At this point. 284 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: This all changed when we meet our hero of the story. Yes, 285 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 3: let's give. 286 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: Our veritable Indiana Jones esque figure here. 287 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that is Martine Frederic Derragon, who traveled originally 288 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: born in France, traveled to New York City, New York City, 289 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: New York City, and then as the Salsey commercials say 290 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: New York City. 291 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: Also true, I was doing more of a Matt Berry thing. 292 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: And then from there, Deragon has long held and she 293 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 3: lives a very fascinating life. She's long held an interest 294 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: in sustainability and animal rights. So she travels to western 295 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 3: China to this rural area. It's nineteen ninety eighteen ninety eight, 296 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: ninety seven, ninety eight. 297 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the height of the Free Tibetan movement. 298 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: By the way, this is nineteen ninety eight, was peak 299 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: Tibetan freedom concert area just to bring it back. 300 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And here's the thing. She doesn't know 301 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 3: about the towers. Most Westerners don't. And her entire thing 302 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: is that she wants to learn more about the endangered 303 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: snow leopard. 304 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, beautiful, beautiful. 305 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: Snow leopards look like they're out of an anime. 306 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 2: I just saw a thing on the internet that was 307 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: a rocky outcrop and the idea was, or where's waldoe situation? 308 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: Find the snow leopard. And the first thing you need 309 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: to know, there's also some snow. They're not pure white, no, 310 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: they it blended in more with the beige, non snow 311 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: covered parts of the of the cliffs than the white 312 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: but your mind immediately tries to look forward in the snow, 313 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: but not accurate. Right, let's bust a little mythy. 314 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 3: There we go. Well done, and this also speaks to 315 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 3: the unique biodiversity of the region. Now, obviously her mission 316 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: changes when she sees the towers. She's walking around and 317 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: you know, she's in areas where there's not at this 318 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: point a lot of infrastructure built up the wilderness, like 319 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 3: you're in the places where you could find a snow leopard. 320 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 3: And then she says, wait, that's not a natural rock formation. 321 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: Somebody built a tower. She's a curious investigator. She starts 322 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: by asking the locals for more information. And get this, 323 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 3: no one has a clue. Everybody is literally saying, you know, 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: in Southern Mandarin. They're saying, oh, yes, yeah, it's this 325 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: whole thing. 326 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: That's the thing. Can we set the stage a little 327 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: bit more here and kind of describe what these look like? 328 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 2: In my mind, I'm picturing a like two towers Lord 329 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: of the Rings esque situation I have saw on Yes, 330 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe it was your your Lovecraftian analogy, 331 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: but help us out then, not. 332 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 3: Too far off, nol, because what you'll see is a 333 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 3: lot of the towers are in their heyday. 334 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: Right. 335 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 3: These are stone structures that vary in height, vary in age. 336 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 3: But we're not we're not blowing smoke when they when 337 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 3: we say skyscraper esque, some could go from one hundred 338 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 3: to two hundred feet. There would be an entry way 339 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 3: at the bottom, and then they would have different features, 340 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: so like a defensive tower would have slits where someone 341 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 3: could shoot an arrow. 342 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 2: Oh what do you call those? There's a name for 343 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: those little little holes in fortified towers arrow arrow holes, 344 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: row slots, slots. Yeah, I like exactly what you're talking about. 345 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: But these are also not particularly adorned, right. These are 346 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 2: very straightforward kind of designs. 347 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: That's the tricky part because it seems this is a 348 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 3: great question. There are clues afoot because they don't all 349 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: have the same design. You see some of these towers 350 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 3: almost stood up here. But some of these towers are 351 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 3: in a star shape. Like if if you if you 352 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: had a a cookie cutter, okay, that was a star 353 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: shaped cookie cutter, then it looks like this tower was 354 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: built in that shape, not none. 355 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: And we're not talking about a star shaped array of 356 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: multiple structures. This is a single tower that, when looked 357 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: at from an aerial view, is itself in a star 358 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: shaped pattern. 359 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 3: Yes, God, just so great description, especially because we're an 360 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 3: audio podcast. Exactly siate that. So it's like a so 361 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 3: imagine if someone took a shape of an eight point 362 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: star and just pulled it longways. 363 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: Like Plato kind of situations pasta like Apasta is good 364 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 2: like it, it's I'm thinking about Plato though. From my 365 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: youth they had those little extreuting kind of things that 366 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: you could push a plunger thing, and then the Plato 367 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 2: would get pushed through. 368 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so just so, and then sometimes they would 369 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: have twelve points m. Questions, Yeah, questions begin to occur 370 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: to Derek on One of the first wins, of course, 371 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: is what what what on earth is going on here? 372 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: The second is how do these things? How did any 373 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 3: of this survive? First off, why are there so many? 374 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: How did so many survive through antiquity in an area 375 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 3: that is very prone to earthquakes? 376 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: Craftsmanship, my friend, how do you even get a contiguous 377 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 2: struck sure like that in this shape? 378 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 3: I think about this all the I think about this 379 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: all the time. To be honest with you, reading the 380 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: the amazing works of the great thinkers and architects of old, 381 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: and realizing that more than once I have fallen asleep 382 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 3: trying to put on a pair of pants. 383 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: Of course, it really makes one one. 384 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: And then that's just look upon my works. 385 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: You might. 386 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 3: So this is weird because Deregon not weird. But Deregon 387 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 3: is obviously not the type of person to leave a 388 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: stone unturned. 389 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: Okay, I'll allow it. Yeah, I can allow it. 390 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm staring about it like he like, it's his 391 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: job to have you allow it, he says. 392 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 2: So. 393 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: So she has a great series of conversations with a 394 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 3: journalist named Richard Stone writing for the Smithsonian, And this 395 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 3: is where we get a look at. 396 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 2: Just Richard Stone. This is kind of his whole wheelhouse, right, 397 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: no Stone on there. 398 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 3: We we have, we already paid for the drum riff 399 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: sound cue. Yeah, we got to use to get your 400 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: county to get us. So okay, can Noel, can we 401 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: share a quote from Stone which describes Derrogut. She like, 402 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 3: the world's most interesting. 403 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: Person, absolutely like the what's that? The do sekis guy? 404 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: Yes? 405 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: The world? 406 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: Yes? 407 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: Anyway, yeah, yeah. The Aragon is a self described free spirit. 408 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: He says with an eclectic resume, an undergraduate degree and 409 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: economics founder of an organization that supports education in world China, 410 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: star polo player in Argentina, sailboat racer and artists. Artist, 411 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: ye see, filmmaker, Uh, incredible, uh, designer, several things, a 412 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: person for all seasons. 413 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 3: And we'll we'll get to some more stuff about her 414 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 3: personal life later. I think we're excited to explore that photographer. Yes, yeah, 415 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 3: very much so, right, which makes. 416 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 2: Sense with the way she was traveling and wanting to 417 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: documents all of these rural areas and just an absolute 418 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: archivist in and of herself. 419 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they were gone again. It's nineteen ninety eight. 420 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: She's going to places that many people, especially Westerners, and 421 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: they have on travel. 422 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: No, it's just important work. 423 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: It's difficult to get that far to the west of China, 424 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 3: and she travels to the area no less than nine 425 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 3: times from nineteen ninety eight to the early two thousands. 426 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 3: She documents almost two hundred separate towers between Sichuan and 427 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 3: to that. 428 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: That many that I had no idea. This is incredible. 429 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: She took measurements again, she took photographs. When possible, she 430 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: would climb within the structures. These were again ben these 431 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: were fortified kind of towers, so there would be some 432 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: sort of spiral staircase situation in them, different obviously case 433 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: by case basis. 434 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, some way to access the elevation, assuming that they 435 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 3: were still structurally sound, so many of them were, and 436 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 3: many of them were possible. 437 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: She would she would climb within them, which is. 438 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 3: Quite courageous when you think about it. And she also 439 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 3: did the thing you should do anytime you're investigating a 440 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 3: local mystery, whether it be some of the stuff we've 441 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: seen in Guatemala, whether it be the stone jars of 442 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 3: Laos which we talked about earlier. 443 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 2: Consult the work of others who came before you. 444 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 3: Right, yes, and then talk to the locals. 445 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: That's right. 446 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 3: Don't be those nerds who thought they rediscovered the celicaf 447 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 3: no no. 448 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: So, to be fair, Dregan did discover some references to 449 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 2: these towers in some relatively unrelated Chinese and European travel logs. 450 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: She also consulted monasteries. She poured over centuries of other 451 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: internal documents that were collected by the monks themselves, who 452 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 2: actually could find no particular references to the origins of 453 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: the towers in terms of who right. 454 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, when she's looking, she realizes that, as you said, 455 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: she has to dig through all possible sources and get this. 456 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: She she does find mentions. 457 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: Yes, and in some diaries if I'm not mistaken from 458 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: some of those predecessors in terms of European explorers. 459 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the monasteries don't appear like the locals appear 460 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 3: not to be too perplexed about this. 461 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: They're not worried about it. To them, it's just a 462 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: thing that's around that has always been there. 463 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 464 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: They are not really asking the how, the where the moon? Yeah, 465 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 2: and so the where they already know where they are, 466 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: why why, It's just a feature of their everyday lives. 467 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: They've just always accepted as fact. 468 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 3: And so they so deregn fies is so nuts. She 469 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: goes to the diaries like you were, mentioning of eighteen 470 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds esque explorers from the West. And these guys 471 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: are kind of like the locals because they they don't 472 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 3: they mention it as a like a tangent in another 473 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 3: story about something they're more interested about, you know. 474 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: Which is unusual. 475 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: I was walking through and you know, there were like towers, 476 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 3: but my main thing was insert here. 477 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: That's right. I guess maybe it's just because of what 478 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: we do. We ask why about everything, that's sort of 479 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 2: our thing. It's just interesting to me that some of 480 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: these thinkers and these explorers would just accept these and 481 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: not be curious about where they came from. They are 482 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: unusual features, and they're clearly not natural. 483 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think part of it comes from the A 484 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 3: big part of it comes from the fact that, in 485 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: the context of their day, these Chinese scholars and these 486 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 3: Western explorers had seen a bunch of towers, you know 487 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: what I mean. 488 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: That's a good point. 489 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: It wasn't a new structure. They were on the way 490 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 3: to something else. It took time for people to appreciate 491 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: the extraordinary nature of these of these structures. And Deregon 492 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 3: had advantages that didn't exist in the sixteen hundred and 493 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 3: seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, sure. 494 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: Stuff like radiocarbon dating, for example. 495 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and she talks about it in her documentary, which 496 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: has been sometimes called The Secret Towers of the Himalayas 497 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 3: and then sometimes The Mystery of the Towers of Eastern Tibets. 498 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 2: Which was also adapted into print form in two thousand 499 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: and five, she started excavating pieces of some of these towers, 500 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: which which were in part made. 501 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 3: Of wood, right, yes, yeah, And she salvage more than 502 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 3: thirty pieces of wood from different towers, thirty two different towers. 503 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 3: And one of the things that she was immediately already 504 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 3: clocking was that this is not a UNESCO World Heritage 505 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: Site yet, not yet, and it should be right that's 506 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: her aim, and so she says, Okay, to do this, 507 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 3: we have to step back in time. If we can 508 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 3: prove the age or determine the age of the towers, 509 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 3: then that sets us up for this World Heritage pursuit. 510 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: And she sends the wood to a lab in Miami, 511 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 3: of all places. I don't know why in my head, 512 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: like I'm thinking Miami. 513 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sure that Miami contains multitudes, but there 514 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: are some forensic research labs there that she employs. If 515 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 2: she could arrive at an approximate date for some of 516 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: these wooden salvage pieces, she figured she could then determine 517 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: the approximate age of a tower. And yet this research 518 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 2: or this forensic data only yielded further. 519 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 3: Mysteries, absolutely one hundred percent, because it turned out that 520 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 3: not all of these towers were in the same in 521 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 3: the same age range. Interesting, So some were built just 522 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 3: a few centuries ago, which I know sounds maybe a 523 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: little big glib a little bit, but it's a big 524 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 3: deal still. But in the grand scheme of things, that's 525 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 3: relatively young. In contrast, some towers were built between one 526 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: thousand to one thousand and two hundred years ago. That 527 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: makes them more than a millennium old. 528 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: Incredible. This means that at least a few of these 529 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: towers were built by someone before the Mongolian forces invaded 530 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: that region of Tibet back in twelve forty. 531 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: And this is the beginning of a incredibly curious mystery, 532 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 3: curious and curiouser or, as as they say in Lord 533 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: of the Rings Way or the Hobbit Way, leads on 534 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: the way. Second breakfast, second breakfast, potato, eleven zies and 535 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: ad breaks. 536 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: Here we go. 537 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 3: We've returned. So if you look at some of again, 538 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: Derragan has never described herself as a PhD ar archaeologist. 539 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: She's self professed just an enthusiast. She's interested in this. 540 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: She wants to save history. She wants to say just 541 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: the way she wants to to save you know, the 542 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 3: snow leopard which led her to this way, leads onto way. 543 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 3: But she does write, she does get published. Her research 544 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 3: is found in places like the Journal of Cambridge Studies, 545 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: and she says, look these towers, overall, the ones that 546 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 3: are still standing, I can prove they were built from 547 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: two hundred CE to sixteen hundred CE, and I think 548 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: they were built for different reasons. Going to your earlier question, 549 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: she says, there are four categories. First, towers situated in 550 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: fortified villages. These are defensive structures. They've got the slots 551 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: or the slits for archers other fortifications. Maybe this is 552 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 3: why it didn't stick out that much to those earlier 553 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: European explorers, because they recognized it and they said, oh, 554 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 3: this is like a this is it like a castle tower? 555 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 2: By the way, I was just I had to find out. 556 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: I had to look aeroslits absolutely correct. Oh really another 557 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: term put log holes that for me utlog also known 558 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: as embrasiers. I like embraziers because it sounds more specific. 559 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: Also known as arrow loops, arrow. 560 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: Loops or loopholes. A little amalogy there. Indeed, So of 561 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: course the Europeans then they're not going to be impressed 562 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 3: because they recognize this as a tower from a castle. 563 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 3: And then there's a second kind of thing, and this one, 564 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 3: this one's really interesting. 565 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 2: To be I agree, towers disseminated over mountain slopes that 566 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: are not along main historic trade routes. Is this from 567 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: our buddy stone, This is from Derregan herself, deregun herself 568 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: and often hidden from view. So you stumble upon these 569 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: things not because you're on the main stretch of you know, 570 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: the Silk Road or something, sure, but because you are, 571 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: you are in the know, and when you see it, 572 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: these are the really impressive ones. These are the status 573 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: of These may have spiritual significance that we'll talk about 574 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: uh later. And the it's funny because uh, Derregan cracked 575 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: me up when I was when I was reading some 576 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: of her research about this, where she said, these might 577 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: be kind of like a flex They might be the 578 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: Cadillacs of their time right, because these were not all 579 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: created equals. Some of them were definitely fancier than others. 580 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: And then third, we've got towers that were in wealthy 581 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: agricultural valleys where the ground was quite fertile, and there 582 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: were a bunch of trading routes, and they had two purposes. 583 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: The secondary purpose was that if you rolled into town 584 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 3: and you're a merchant, you know, you gotta sell your 585 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 3: what are people selling pelts? You gotta sell your pelts? 586 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 3: And you roll in you're you're a humble Peltzman and 587 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: then you are you are Peltsmouth. Yes, you are confronted 588 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: with this obnoxiously impressive tower, this ornate tower. 589 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: We say ostentation. 590 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then someone's scare stands maybe a top it, 591 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: with their fingers steepled, and they say, beltsmen, welcome. 592 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 2: Yes, look upon my works mighty. And what's the does 593 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: that one go despair there? Yeah? Maybe don't despair. It's okay. 594 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 2: Let's let's be a little more cheerful than that welcome. 595 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: There was an implication, there was a bit of a flex. 596 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: It was a bit of a show of force as well. 597 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, and uh, I love that we're referencing, uh 598 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 3: one of my favorite poems that are osumandias m. Do 599 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 3: reread it. It won't take a second and it'll stay with you. However, 600 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: the primary purpose of these, uh this third type of 601 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 3: tower was really to facilitate trade. So there was a 602 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 3: lot of capacity to store goods. Be that a silo 603 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: kind of issue, yeah, should be the agricultural products or pelts. 604 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 3: And perhaps more importantly, this is where you would trade 605 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 3: out your pack animals. There's like an ancient version of 606 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 3: a gas station, a trading post. Yeah yeah. So now 607 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 3: we have to continue our journey western east, so let's 608 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 3: get maybe some different horses. 609 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know what I mean. Fourth, and again this 610 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: is from Dereghn herself. Tower situated on mountaintops, entrances to 611 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 2: valleys or other strategic positions for Gondo. Indeed, I was 612 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: very much on the Lord of the rings tip this. 613 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: These were the type of places where smoke signals could 614 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: be sent up ways of communicating across long distances before 615 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: like you know the Internet. 616 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and they had they had their own code 617 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 3: and language and everybody understood it kind of like a 618 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 3: smoke based semaphore. And we definitely just. 619 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 2: Is a semaphore like a pettifour. 620 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 3: And that they rhyme and that they rhyme. 621 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 2: I don't know what a semaphore is. Where you have 622 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: you know, flag code, oh, the flags like traffic controllers. 623 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: Sure yeah great, so uh it's weird that I know semaphores. 624 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: And just so you know, folks, as being an audio podcast, 625 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: Ben was flopping his arms around in flagsmen uh. 626 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 3: Fashion, and it's specifically I'm talking about flag semaphore. Of course, 627 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 3: semaphore can mean other things. And apologies to some folks 628 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 3: who drop by the studio and got our slightly neurodivergent 629 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 3: info dump on that. Yeah, because we were surprised. 630 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: That's how we roll. Yeah, we were definitely taken by surprise. 631 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: But it was a lovely visit. 632 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 3: It was a lovely visit. And so this is a 633 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 3: really effective way to not just communicate, but also to 634 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 3: sort of lay out your order space. Yeah, yeah, and 635 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 3: there were likely Derregune finds thousands of these towers, and 636 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 3: she as she's looking at the footprint of where these 637 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 3: are built, she finds that some are much further away 638 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 3: than you would originally assume. It forms all, all in all, 639 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 3: from what we know, a territory that's as large as 640 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 3: a third of modern day France. 641 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 2: Wow. 642 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 3: So someone was building a lot of towers. 643 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 2: And some were more typical free standing towers, others that 644 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: had that iconic star shape eight points for some towers, 645 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: twelve points for others. That's the part where we're not 646 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: quite sure. Was it an aesthetic thing? Was there some 647 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: estrological purpose? Maybe it reminds me of the Georgia guidestones 648 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: and something, you know, the idea of using it to 649 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: mark time, to measure the changing of the seasons and 650 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 2: the changing of the day. We don't know this. I'm 651 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 2: just speculating here. I do wonder that's a great question. 652 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that also makes us wonder is there a 653 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 3: possibility that some of these were purely religious constructions. We 654 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 3: know that according to Tibetan legend, the mood cord Dmu 655 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 3: is said to connect heaven and earth. So you'll find 656 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 3: people arguing that this is almost like the Pyramids. 657 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: Extension, you know, from our mortal coil into the great 658 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 2: beyond right. 659 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 3: Right, And this leads us to more questions. All right, 660 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 3: if there are thousands of these that were built over 661 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 3: some period of time, what happened to the rest? 662 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: It's a good question. What about the two similar structures 663 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 2: further west in modern day Afghanistan, which is pretty far away, 664 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 2: pretty far away ben the Gosny minarets have a very 665 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 2: similar appearance to these Tibetan towers, And the most important 666 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 2: question is why were they abandoned? May know the most 667 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: important and an additional important question. 668 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, what happened? Because we know that there are 669 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 3: other again, there are other structures that are roughly around 670 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 3: the same time as some of these towers, and people 671 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 3: still live in those, you know, and they still kick it. 672 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 3: You can get an air B and B from like 673 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 3: the fourteen hundreds, you know what I mean? 674 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 2: Is that true? 675 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of true. How it's like it's like 676 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 3: podcast true. 677 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 2: Okay, you point that the other day we did a 678 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: lovely live event as part of on Air Fest in 679 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: Brooklyn with our pal Matt Frederick, and I believe that 680 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 2: Ben is either in conversation or maybe even during the 681 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: event itself where you coined podcast accurate. 682 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 3: For us, that means a proximately indeed true. Okay, I'm 683 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 3: looking through this. We're going to go back to this 684 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 3: in a later episode, and it's not gonna make any 685 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 3: sense to Matt Frederick. 686 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: That's okay, keep him on his toes. 687 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 3: So yeah, so you're in on that conspiracy, folks. But 688 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 3: there are these great questions, you know, why are they abandoned? 689 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 3: What happened to all the other thousands of towers, Like 690 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 3: we were saying, the most likely answer is simply the 691 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 3: ravages of time. Right, we're in a very earthquake prone area. 692 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 3: Clearly there were attacks by rival or invading communities, because 693 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 3: a lot of these towers were defensive fortications with arrow 694 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 3: loops or loopholes, and sometimes the thing about defenses is 695 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 3: they fall. 696 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: They do. But many of these obviously remain, and we're 697 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: built to last, and we're looking at we also have 698 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 2: to remember we are looking at the flotsam and jetsam 699 00:38:59,080 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 2: of history. 700 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 3: The range of these towers, however many there were one 701 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 3: point or another. 702 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 2: There were way more. 703 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 3: There were way more. We're seeing the remnants of something 704 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 3: like the stories about how Grecian architecture was actually quite colorful, right, right, 705 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 3: you remember hearing about. 706 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: That, well, the frescoes and things like that. Yeah, but 707 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 2: like the colors faded over time, of course. Yeah, And 708 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: they're pigments that would not have necessarily lasted as long 709 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 2: as the stone medium that they were put. 710 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 3: Upon, right, or statues painted in bright colors and sold, yes, 711 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 3: plaster one hundred percent. So now we only see the 712 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 3: ruins of structures that once upon a time were doubtlessly 713 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: h just a feast for the eyes, you know what 714 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 3: I mean. And the towers may have been like that, 715 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 3: or perhaps technology involved. Perhaps it became less useful, maybe 716 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 3: the populations just shifted, maybe everybody just moved out of town. 717 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and thankfully, however, we can explain for the most 718 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 2: part the construction. They were a mix of stone and wood, 719 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 2: which is the part that was a to be passed 720 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 2: along for radiocarbon dating. Along with these star shapes of 721 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: some of the towers. Turns out to be a very 722 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 2: fantastic protection that array against earthquakes. 723 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it gives you a kind of stability in a 724 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 3: fascinating construction technique. A descendant of it is used today 725 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 3: in other parts of China and other parts of the 726 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 3: East Asian theater. 727 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 2: Overall, it reminds me of some designs of modern skyscrapers 728 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 2: that are designed to shift with a little bits. Yeah, 729 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 2: with one hundred percent they are able to sway along 730 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 2: with the shifting earth. 731 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, look at that skyscraper. It's kind of 732 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 3: a slinky. 733 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 2: It feels weird when you feel it, though, and you're 734 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 2: up really high in one of those. 735 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 3: I have to say, the higher you get, the more apparent. 736 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 3: The effect is kind of like sitting on the back 737 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 3: of a plane. 738 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 2: Even in the amazing venue that we just performed at 739 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 2: National Sawdust, when we went down into the guts of 740 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 2: the building, there were springs inside of the structure. Very 741 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 2: similar concepts. 742 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: Yes, very much so, because again, people in the ancient 743 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 3: empires were just as intelligent as people in the modern day. Now, 744 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 3: we also have a little bit of fun stuff. We 745 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 3: wanted to end on here before our super producer, Matt's 746 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 3: still gets tired of us. 747 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 2: I didn't know that was Yeah, I'm sorry. There's the toilers. 748 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 3: There's a Ted Turner connection to this. It's another plot 749 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 3: twist to our story, our own Georgia boy. The also 750 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 3: a sailor, also a sailor. That's how they met? Is 751 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 3: it really that's how they met? 752 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 2: That makes sense? Remember this, I don't remember what I 753 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 2: saw this and it was a documentary. I think about Ted. 754 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: His name is Ted Turner, Ted Turner. He was almost 755 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 2: lost at sea during this crazy sailboat race. Yeah, real 756 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 2: adventure himself makes perfect sense. They would have crossed paths. 757 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 3: In nineteen sixty nine, Deregon meets Ted Turner and they 758 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 3: become friends. She cruise on one of his vessels for 759 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 3: a while, and they you know, this is before he 760 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 3: gets into bfalow. Yeah, and this is before you know, 761 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 3: a lot of for Jane Fonda. He I believe he 762 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 3: was with Fonda at the time. Wait a minute, No, No, 763 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 3: they were just friends at that point. Oh but didn't 764 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 3: it didn't it? Bossom didn't romance. I think several years 765 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 3: after Fonda and Turner split, Okay, okay, and then they 766 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 3: came back together. 767 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,479 Speaker 2: Don't you dare Jane that way? 768 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: Oh? 769 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 2: Ted? Uh? 770 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: And when they came together, Turner also through You can 771 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 3: read about the story in the Chicago Tribune, a couple 772 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 3: of New York Times like posh upper class explorations of culture. 773 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: Anyway, he helped fund some of this recently, helped fund 774 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 2: a lot. He was a big you know, he was 775 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 2: a bit of an Indiana Jones figure himself. 776 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 3: Yes, very much so. And he wanted to, like like Derek, 777 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 3: and he wanted to explore research, understand the mystery of 778 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 3: the towers. And this is something that I find wholesome. 779 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 3: I think we should make clear here. No, Matt derek 780 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,919 Speaker 3: On is not trying to make money off of this 781 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 3: at all. All the proceeds from her documentary, from her speeches, 782 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 3: her from her printed work. It all goes directly to 783 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 3: something called the Unicorn Foundation, which she created with Ted 784 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 3: specifically to research and protect these towers. So maybe one 785 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 3: day we'll know the answers behind their providence, But right now, 786 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 3: none of this answers the immediate question like who built these? 787 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 3: For real? 788 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 2: Though, Yeah, it's okay, I mean, I think we have 789 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: enough of an understanding. I mean, I'm sure would like 790 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 2: to know more. We do have a decent grasp of 791 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 2: the why, a pretty solid understanding of the how, but 792 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 2: the who remains anyone's guess, and I you know, we've 793 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 2: talked about this. Sometimes a little bit of mystery remaining 794 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 2: is cool. 795 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Also a plausible guess would be it's most likely 796 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 3: these were techniques that were shared across and transmitted across 797 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 3: multiple civilizations cultures. 798 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 2: As indicated by the presence of very similar structures in Afghanistan. 799 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 3: You mention, you find something that works, So maybe what 800 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 3: we're seeing now were the most effective tower designs and 801 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,879 Speaker 3: people just made their own improvements along the way, or 802 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 3: just maybe it's the stuff they don't want you to know. 803 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 2: It's true, So hey, why don't you let us know 804 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 2: conspiracy realists out there? What do you think these things were? Well, 805 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 2: it kind of know what they're for, but who do 806 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 2: you think built them? Do you have any additional theories 807 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 2: as to this, this idea of the religious aspects behind 808 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: them or the astrology? I like it too. Let us know. 809 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: You can find us all over the internet where Conspiracy 810 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 2: Stuff Show on Facebook where we have our Facebook group, 811 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 2: Here's where It's Crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on 812 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 2: YouTube where we have video content glor for your perusing enjoyment, 813 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok. 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