WEBVTT - How Tucson Beat Amazon’s Data Center

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<v Speaker 1>Also media, Hello and welcome to the show. It's meet

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<v Speaker 1>James today, and I'm very fortunate to be joined by

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<v Speaker 1>a friend of the show, Kyle Cassada.

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<v Speaker 2>How you doing, Carl, Oh, I'm doing great. And when

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<v Speaker 2>I hear a friend of the show with any of

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<v Speaker 2>you all or you James, it's a real honor to me.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm honored to be your friend and a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of the show. So I'm glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 3>No, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>We always appreciate you being here and everything you do

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<v Speaker 1>within range.

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<v Speaker 3>Kyle.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not here to talk about gunstaff today Italy, which

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<v Speaker 1>is nice in a way because we're here to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about something which is also very important right in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of keeping people safe, and that is activism against corporate

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<v Speaker 1>destruction of our environment. We're here to talk about something

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<v Speaker 1>called Project Blue. Specifically, can you explain to listeners who

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<v Speaker 1>are not familiar, folks who maybe you haven't heard about it,

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<v Speaker 1>what Project Blue was proposed to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's not dead either. We'll talk about that more.

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<v Speaker 2>But the Project Blue, we'll see a two hundred ninety

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<v Speaker 2>acre data center. Project put that in scope, two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and ninety acres whoa data center South of Tucson through

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<v Speaker 2>a company called Beel Infrastructure that through people's hard work,

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<v Speaker 2>came to find out it was for Amazon. But a

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred and ninety are AI data center south of Tucson.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that is vast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to think of a like, I can't think

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<v Speaker 1>of a comparison for two hundred ninety eightis, but that

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<v Speaker 1>that is a huge amount of like computing power, right, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Guess it's hard to fathom that kind of space when

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<v Speaker 2>you think about it. Yeah, there are maps of what

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<v Speaker 2>this proposed data center's footprint is. And if you take

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<v Speaker 2>the rough rectangle of it and place it over Tucson proper,

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<v Speaker 2>the city of Tucson, that's they propose it to be

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<v Speaker 2>just south of it pretty much envelops and it consumes

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<v Speaker 2>the entire downtown of Tucson in multiple neighborhoods. That's how

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<v Speaker 2>big this is. And it's one data center.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what was the data centers to do? Like what

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<v Speaker 1>if people aren't familiar, right, what is the data center

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<v Speaker 1>to do? What do they do with the big computer?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? Okay, so for people that aren't really into the

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<v Speaker 2>tech sector of things, a data center is essentially think

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<v Speaker 2>of something the size of a bigger than a mall

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<v Speaker 2>that has nothing but giant computer data banks in it.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a giant place where you would think of

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<v Speaker 2>your old mainframes in the old days. It's not mainframes anymore,

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<v Speaker 2>but like it's racks and racks and racks of computing

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<v Speaker 2>power and connectivity to the Internet for the purposes of

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<v Speaker 2>whatever Amazon would want to do with this. So if

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<v Speaker 2>you go to use Amazon's infrastructure or use their AI,

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<v Speaker 2>that buzzphrase it now is everywhere the computers that do

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<v Speaker 2>those things or those requests or decide what products they

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<v Speaker 2>want to market to through their algorithm. That's what these

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<v Speaker 2>data centers do. So it's essentially an entire city of

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<v Speaker 2>just machines. Yeah, a tech cropolis is an interesting way

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<v Speaker 2>to put it. Like, not a netcropo, it's a tech cropolis. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So imagine a few people maintaining an entire city of.

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<v Speaker 1>Machines, right and actively participating in like undermining the value

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<v Speaker 1>of labor for everyone else with this AI shit.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's part of this project're going to get into

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<v Speaker 2>a minute. Is one of the things they like to

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<v Speaker 2>propose is that it's going to bring jobs, but only

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<v Speaker 2>at the beginning and we'll talk about that more. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Well, let's talk about like people in Tucson did not.

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<v Speaker 1>Want this data center, right, Like there was a broad

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<v Speaker 1>based and well organized opposition to it. So perhaps we

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<v Speaker 1>should explain like why why? I mean, I guess people

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<v Speaker 1>listen to podcast are inclined to think data center bad.

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<v Speaker 1>But can you explain the impact that this would have

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<v Speaker 1>had on the city and the turning area?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, absolutely, So it's very interesting to me to

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<v Speaker 2>think about. So these data centers of this accord are

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<v Speaker 2>if you're interested in this topic and start googling, you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to find that this is, of course not the

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<v Speaker 2>first large or mega data center that's been implemented across

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<v Speaker 2>this country, because a number that are in Texas and

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<v Speaker 2>they are belching large amounts of pollution into the environment.

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<v Speaker 2>Cities nearby get absolutely destroyed by it. Typically they're brought

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<v Speaker 2>in through some sort of tax incentives by the local

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<v Speaker 2>city council or local county, and so that's exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>was happening here with Tucson. So the local city council

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<v Speaker 2>was pretty friendly to the idea. They were talking to

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<v Speaker 2>this beal infrastructure to bring in Project Blue. They were

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<v Speaker 2>giving tax cuts. They were giving all these incentives to

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<v Speaker 2>bring this gigantic megalithic thing into just south of town.

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<v Speaker 2>And part of the insidiousness of this is that this

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<v Speaker 2>was going to go forward until someone noticed it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it was just going to happen all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 2>one day this thing is there, right, But it was noticed.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't honestly know exactly how it got noticed,

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<v Speaker 2>but it got noticed. And one of the things I

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<v Speaker 2>really find interesting, historically speaking, is how certain places and

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<v Speaker 2>cultures resonate over time with historical events from the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Tucson historically is an interesting place in terms of its

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<v Speaker 2>environmental activism. There's a number of things that happened in

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<v Speaker 2>Tucson in the nineteen sixties. There were groups that were

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<v Speaker 2>actively fighting the spread of highways highway infrastructure. They were

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<v Speaker 2>anti freeway, and their reasoning and rationale was it that

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<v Speaker 2>freeways were the arterial infrastructure that allowed for the destructive

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<v Speaker 2>spread of track pum developments. So the way to help,

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<v Speaker 2>one way is to prevent the destruction of the local

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<v Speaker 2>environment and the spread of a city was to diminish

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<v Speaker 2>its freeway footprint. And I think you can see this

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<v Speaker 2>is true if you look at any big city now

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<v Speaker 2>like Phoenix is essentially a hive city, and all of

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<v Speaker 2>the growth comes because of freeways, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Because people can get to work or whatever quickly, and

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<v Speaker 1>so you get commuter suburbs.

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<v Speaker 2>One thing that's always was interesting when I was doing

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<v Speaker 2>more work in infosec when people talk and this does

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<v Speaker 2>make sense. By the way, this is going to sound

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<v Speaker 2>off topic. I was talking to the information security architect

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<v Speaker 2>for McDonald's and we were working with them on putting

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<v Speaker 2>together a This is why this is interesting me as

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<v Speaker 2>a data center thing I used to do a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of work. They were talking about putting in a very

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<v Speaker 2>secure and encrypted data center for the purposes of protecting

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<v Speaker 2>their intellectual property. And I was talking to this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, what is this like your recipes or

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<v Speaker 2>what is it you it's a McDonald's protect Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 2>this was wild. No, they don't care about their recipes.

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<v Speaker 2>They were protecting their software that determines where they should

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<v Speaker 2>buy the next piece of real estate to put a McDonald's.

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<v Speaker 2>McDonald is actually a real estate company. And I have

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<v Speaker 2>seen this in real time with my life because I've

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<v Speaker 2>lived in a very remote part of the Arizona Desert.

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<v Speaker 2>The frontier for lack of a better term, of Arizona

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time, and the first thing that popped

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<v Speaker 2>up in this one little area in the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>nowhere was a McDonald's. And now everywhere you see a

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<v Speaker 2>McDonald show up someplace that seems a little weird, give

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<v Speaker 2>it a few years and it's suddenly the epicenter of

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<v Speaker 2>a new tract one development.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, they have some unique algorithm to determine.

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<v Speaker 2>They figure that out, and the McDonald's are the first

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<v Speaker 2>thing they're own, usually a gas station in a McDonald's,

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<v Speaker 2>and it essentially just looks like, oh, this is the

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<v Speaker 2>place to stop, take a leak and buy a burden.

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<v Speaker 2>But no, they buy all the land around it, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they start selling or leasing that to other businesses

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<v Speaker 2>as the growth happens. That's a big part of how

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<v Speaker 2>the McDonald's Corporation makes its main money. Fascinating, Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>so aligned with you put a freeway. When you see

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<v Speaker 2>a freeway suddenly show up in the middle of nowhere,

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<v Speaker 2>someone has a goal to put a giant tract home

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<v Speaker 2>development out there and sprawl that city a little more so. Anyways,

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<v Speaker 2>going back to the original topic, these people in Tucson

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<v Speaker 2>in the sixties were anti freeway and they actively changed

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<v Speaker 2>the way Tucson grew. And I think it's one of

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<v Speaker 2>the major reasons Tucson, if you've ever been to Tucson

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<v Speaker 2>versus Phoenix, is a very different, culturally different vibe of Phoenix. One.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't sprawl the same, yeah, and it still has

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that isn't strip malls. It actually has locally owned businesses,

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<v Speaker 2>It actually has some community resources, not all of its

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<v Speaker 2>tract home and strip malls. And I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of that is because of that freeway activism.

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<v Speaker 3>Yea.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, you look back into Tucson's past, love him or

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<v Speaker 2>hate him, or somewhere in between. The somewhat infamous author

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<v Speaker 2>Edward Abbey lived in Tucson and wrote The Monkey Wrench

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<v Speaker 2>Gang and wrote a lot of environmental acts divism. He

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<v Speaker 2>had a lot of views that were kind of deplorable,

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<v Speaker 2>but when it came to climate and when it came

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<v Speaker 2>to the environment, he was pretty on point. And his

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<v Speaker 2>work spawned an organization called Earth First, which was one

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<v Speaker 2>of the not the first, but one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>famous direct we're talking direct action, climate activity or Clyde.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they were the ones that were destroying bulldozers,

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<v Speaker 2>driving them off cliffs, some burning down Ski Shelle's like

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<v Speaker 2>pretty wild stuff because they believed there was no retreat

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<v Speaker 2>in defensive Mother Earth. He's a quote, but anyways, he

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<v Speaker 2>was Tucson. Earth First birthed in Tucson, and then Earth

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<v Speaker 2>First was a victim of the green scare. And many

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<v Speaker 2>of them are still in prison for their work. But

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<v Speaker 2>they did have an effect. Whether you agree with that

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<v Speaker 2>sort of direct activism or not, they had an effect.

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<v Speaker 2>But here we are. It's been many years after those

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<v Speaker 2>big main activities and all that stuff sort of became quiet.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't really think of like direct action activism when

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to the environment like you did back in

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<v Speaker 2>the eighties and nineties. But when this data center popped

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<v Speaker 2>up group started showing up in Tucson, that really felt

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<v Speaker 2>very earth First e. I'm not talking direct action like firebombs,

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<v Speaker 2>but their speech, the way they were organizing, coming to

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<v Speaker 2>city council meetings and not just showing up to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>but disrupting the meetings like causing a scene. And their

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<v Speaker 2>work so far, and I will mention some of them

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<v Speaker 2>later in this topic, how actually sort of forced the

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<v Speaker 2>hand of the city Council to deny the project, and

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<v Speaker 2>so looking back, you're like, it's interesting to see the

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<v Speaker 2>residents of things like those old freeway activists and Edward

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<v Speaker 2>Abbey and Earth First it's still there. Tucson still has that,

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<v Speaker 2>and you see that coming up now in regards to

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<v Speaker 2>this data center project and other things that are starting

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I love Tucson and spent a lot of time in

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<v Speaker 1>Tucson for years and years and years, and there is

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<v Speaker 1>a feeling of like it has got this like diy

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<v Speaker 1>community feeling that you do not experience. People think Tucson

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<v Speaker 1>and Phoenix are they just small divasion of the same,

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<v Speaker 1>But they're incredibly different.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh no, yeah, it's hard to describe the difference. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to go to both.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Oh, you could not go to Phoenix. You

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<v Speaker 1>can go almost anywhere else in the US and experience

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing as Phoenix. Rite incredibly generic as the city.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, the Phoenix is an old place too,

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<v Speaker 2>not as old as Tucson, but the very core the

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<v Speaker 2>downtown of Phoenix still has something. However, Phoenix was never

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<v Speaker 2>good about preserving any of its historicity or historical content,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they never saw a building old enough or

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<v Speaker 2>cool enough that they didn't care about bulldozing it and

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<v Speaker 2>putting up a Walgreens. Yeah, and so Phoenix is as

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<v Speaker 2>I forgot what documentary it was, but it was like

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<v Speaker 2>what you just described so many American cities. You drive

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<v Speaker 2>to it and it's just like this, like constantly looping

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<v Speaker 2>revolving piece of film of Walgreen, McDonald's nail salon, super cuts,

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<v Speaker 2>Chili's rinse and repeat. Yeah, and it just every ten miles.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the same thing Dutch Brother's coffee. It just never ends.

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<v Speaker 2>And Tucson is not yet like that. It still has

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<v Speaker 2>still has a soul.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are special places in Phoenix who say, like

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<v Speaker 1>Guadalupe is cool when my yagie friends live this and

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<v Speaker 1>I Sarah, I like getting there. Let's take a little

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<v Speaker 1>break and talk about how Tuson and Post is data center.

0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.760
<v Speaker 2>So there are a number of groups that came togethers

0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.120
<v Speaker 2>if you can't track everything all at once, because it's

0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.679
<v Speaker 2>not possible to human being. But the one I've been

0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.160
<v Speaker 2>keeping eye on and communicating with is called No Desert

0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Data Center. They have a presence on the web. They're

0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.960
<v Speaker 2>all over social media, Facebook, Instagram, and for me at least.

0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.640
<v Speaker 2>And this is not to exclude anyone. If if you're

0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.680
<v Speaker 2>one of the primary people or groups that we're working

0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 2>against this and you heard this, please do not feel

0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.000
<v Speaker 2>like I'm excluding you. This is just the group that

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.079
<v Speaker 2>I landed up connecting with and following. So but they

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.440
<v Speaker 2>are also doing a good job of aggregating others too.

0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.440
<v Speaker 2>So almost all of their posts have like a bunch

0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.240
<v Speaker 2>of other groups tagged in it. So if you were

0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.719
<v Speaker 2>to look up the No Desert Data Center folks, you're

0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.839
<v Speaker 2>going to find a lot of them. But they had

0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.720
<v Speaker 2>some amazing artwork. You know. One of the things that

0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.120
<v Speaker 2>I think is really important in activism is getting the

0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.440
<v Speaker 2>attention of the local community. Artwork will do that. So

0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.440
<v Speaker 2>if they'd this incredible poster that's like says no drop

0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.000
<v Speaker 2>for data and it's a water drop with a rattlesnake

0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and havlina and a solaro and they had a rattlesnake

0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:26.240
<v Speaker 2>wrapped around a rain drop. Really good stuff that catches

0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.000
<v Speaker 2>your eye. So they were doing that, but they were

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 2>also getting people together. They were having meetings, planning sessions

0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.400
<v Speaker 2>before city council meetings, getting people together, doing the artwork

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 2>there rallying the troops for lack of a better term,

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 2>building morale. You don't have activism without morale. And then

0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 2>they were showing up and showing up in numbers. There's

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.920
<v Speaker 2>videos on Instagram on their feet alone, where one of

0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 2>these city council meetings had over one thousand Twusonians in

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.080
<v Speaker 2>it with signs and posters. And they weren't just sitting

0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>there quietly waiting for their thirty seconds to speak. They

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.120
<v Speaker 2>were disruptive, They were loud, and they were not going

0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.200
<v Speaker 2>to not be heard. So that type of activism in

0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.440
<v Speaker 2>this instance very clearly is the reason that this happened.

0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Because if you read the writings of a number of

0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.680
<v Speaker 2>the city council members, they were very sympathetic to the

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.640
<v Speaker 2>data center. One of them was talking about, like, this

0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.920
<v Speaker 2>is the wrong thing to do. If we block the

0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 2>data center, they're just going to build it anyway, and

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.200
<v Speaker 2>it's better for us to be involved because then we

0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.640
<v Speaker 2>can help tune it to be better for the community. No, no, no, no, no,

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 2>you're just whitewashing a horrible thing. And so this group

0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:36.319
<v Speaker 2>and other groups called them out on that immediately. Nice

0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.760
<v Speaker 2>so like, no, that's not it. So I think I'm

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.880
<v Speaker 2>answering your question. But it's groups like this, yeah, throwing

0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:47.280
<v Speaker 2>up in large numbers, being loud not only online but

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.199
<v Speaker 2>in person that forced their hand. That's crazio.

0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's people actually being willing to get out of

0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 1>the tweets and into the streets so to speak, to

0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 1>like actually show up in this case of these meetings.

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.680
<v Speaker 1>But it doesn't have to just be meetings, could be anywhere.

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 1>I guess we should just talk about like Tusunday. It's

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.320
<v Speaker 1>from audham Wood. It means dot corner, but it is

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.839
<v Speaker 1>not a cool place. It is cooler the Phoenix. Actually,

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.880
<v Speaker 1>let's hot that, like this data center would have consumed

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 1>a massive amount of energy I presumed, like just keeping

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 1>the computers cooled right, and a massive amount of water.

0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 3>To do that.

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, So when you start talking about heat, for example,

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.120
<v Speaker 2>I think it's worth I know we don't have infinite

0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.280
<v Speaker 2>time here on this podcast, but it's worth noting for

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 2>people that are not familiar with the concept of heat islands. Yeah,

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 2>heat islands are where you build so much metropolitan infrastructure,

0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:40.080
<v Speaker 2>including asphalt and concrete, with no thought boards heat or cooling.

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.800
<v Speaker 2>You really don't, like Phoenix was built without thinking about that.

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 2>They're thinking about it now, but it wasn't built thinking

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 2>about it when it sprawled, and it was continually to sprawl. Ye,

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Phoenix was always a little hotter than Tuson, just because

0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 2>of like you know, geographical reasons. But now Phoenix is

0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 2>measurably and demonstrably hotter yet because it never cool off.

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 2>And that's a heat island. So what happens is during

0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>the day, all of that I'll create, all that asphalt,

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 2>all those things heat up, and it'll get to at

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.000
<v Speaker 2>moments like just this last week, one hundred and eighteen,

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.960
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and twenty degree in the middle of the day.

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.120
<v Speaker 2>But because the heat island hasn't been architected well and

0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 2>has no green space to deal with this, at night,

0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>it's still one hundred and five. Jesus see, it never

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.040
<v Speaker 2>gets below one hundred and So the problem with heat,

0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.400
<v Speaker 2>like obviously one hundred and twenty degrees can kill you.

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.000
<v Speaker 2>But the problem with the heat is that as you

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.560
<v Speaker 2>never get a chance to cool off, heat over time

0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.880
<v Speaker 2>is more dangerous to human to all living organisms. If

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.280
<v Speaker 2>you get a break, that's what keeps you alive. So

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 2>it could be one hundred and twenty during the day,

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.000
<v Speaker 2>but if it's seventy five at night, that gives you

0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 2>a moment to heal and recuperate for the next day's heat.

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Phoenix is not the worst, believe it or not, but

0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the worst versions of a heat island, and

0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 2>they are actively working to make that better. But it's

0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of hard to undo what's been done. Yeah, Tucson,

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.360
<v Speaker 2>once again, because the sprawl is diminished by activism of

0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 2>the past, did not become the heat island. Phoenix does.

0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 2>So while it might be one hundred and thirteen during

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the day, it might get down to eighty at night. Yeah,

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.720
<v Speaker 2>and that really is a big difference for not only sustainability,

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>but for the health and safety of everyone that lives there.

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that I find is interesting is

0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the justification for these data centers is because Arizona is

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 2>seen as a place that doesn't have significant natural disaster risk.

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.160
<v Speaker 2>But one of the things that's being left out of

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.200
<v Speaker 2>the conversation I don't know why this is the case,

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 2>is that heat and heat islands are a natural disaster.

0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, they kill people.

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.080
<v Speaker 2>If the power were to go out in Phoenix at

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 2>the wrong time of year, the death toll is hard

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 2>to fathom.

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, people, Yeah, without air conditioning, it's unsurvivable in

0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>those temperatures, especially for older people, people medically conditioned.

0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 2>So what have you Anyone at risk? The unhoused is

0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.040
<v Speaker 2>one example course, which they don't even do proper metrics

0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 2>and measuring of because our society doesn't care like it should. However,

0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.320
<v Speaker 2>outside of that, you said people that are at risk,

0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 2>anyone that has any sort of illness, the young, the elderly,

0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.399
<v Speaker 2>and anyone like that, they have to live in their

0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 2>air conditioned spaceship to survive. Yeah.

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it would have taken it, like you say,

0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 1>a huge amount of cooling just to keep this data center.

0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Well that's where this gets so fascinating when they start

0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.920
<v Speaker 2>proposing these because like, oh, let's be realistic, right, Arizona

0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.920
<v Speaker 2>is probably low risk for a dramatic earthquake or a hurricane,

0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.520
<v Speaker 2>that's fair. Yeah, However, it is not a low risk

0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 2>for a heat casualty event, which is going on every

0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.160
<v Speaker 2>year and getting worse with climate change. And so these

0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.480
<v Speaker 2>data centers, the one in twoson that was proposed, what

0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.680
<v Speaker 2>have consumed and the numbers fluctuate and the course the

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.160
<v Speaker 2>numbers you get from the Amazon crew versus others will

0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.639
<v Speaker 2>be a little different. But as best as I can tell,

0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.840
<v Speaker 2>the our consumption of this one data center was essentially

0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.239
<v Speaker 2>the equivalent of that of Metropolitan on pieces. Yeah, so

0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.320
<v Speaker 2>you double the power load of the entire city for

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.160
<v Speaker 2>this data center. And the cooling system. There's two different

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 2>ways to cool there's qut unquote air cooled and water cooled.

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.560
<v Speaker 2>They can tell you whatever they want. The reality is

0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.640
<v Speaker 2>they're probably not going to be affected with air cooled

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 2>in this environment, so it's going to be water cooled.

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.720
<v Speaker 2>And the data on that also seems to be the

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.200
<v Speaker 2>water consumption of this was not only equal, may be

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:32.040
<v Speaker 2>worse than that of Tucson itself. Looking at this site

0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 2>right now. Water positivity claim for the initial two years,

0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.560
<v Speaker 2>but the initial estimate was six hundred and twenty two

0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 2>million gallons. Whoa yeah, yeah, with a seven hundred miliwad

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>expected demand, it's crazy. And so what happens is not

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.439
<v Speaker 2>only does the city council just see dollar signs in

0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:54.679
<v Speaker 2>their eyes, local electrical infrastructure like TEP, the two soon

0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.119
<v Speaker 2>Electrical or other data center places where data centers are

0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>located suddenly do things like stop worrying about any form

0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.520
<v Speaker 2>of carbon positivity, or they get rid of all their

0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.479
<v Speaker 2>carbon goals so that they can build and work with

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.760
<v Speaker 2>people like this, Because if you double the power consumption

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.720
<v Speaker 2>of a region overnight for a data center, yeah, think

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 2>of the waste that you're going to produce to do that, right, Yeah,

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.560
<v Speaker 2>And suddenly how do you produce that power. You're not

0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.280
<v Speaker 2>going to have a nuclear plant pop up tomorrow, so

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.879
<v Speaker 2>you're going to do other things like burn more coal. Yeah,

0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.879
<v Speaker 2>and so your carbon and carbon positivity or an attempt

0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.760
<v Speaker 2>to move away from carbon waste, they just throw that

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 2>out the door so they can have these lucrative, juicy

0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.400
<v Speaker 2>contracts with these data centers.

0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that is I mean, it's just on the

0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:44.280
<v Speaker 1>face of it. When I heard of it, I was

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:46.080
<v Speaker 1>just like, why are they doing this in one of

0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.639
<v Speaker 1>the hottest places you know in the region. But I

0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.320
<v Speaker 1>guess yeah, they just don't see heat as a threat.

0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 1>Having spent a lot of time in the desert there,

0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.480
<v Speaker 1>I can tell you it is a threat to human life.

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.080
<v Speaker 1>So as of last week, right, the Council has refused

0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:03.720
<v Speaker 1>it permission to be built in.

0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Tucson due to intense external pressure. They were they did

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:09.600
<v Speaker 2>vote against it.

0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Yeah, so that's like it's a victory. I guess

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:14.639
<v Speaker 1>it's a victory in a battle, but it's not the

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:15.159
<v Speaker 1>end of the war.

0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh No. That's the problem with all this is that

0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:23.120
<v Speaker 2>these companies and these folks will never stop. So I

0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 2>just saw an article in fact that two days ago, yes,

0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 2>this project was voted down. However, they're coming back with

0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.400
<v Speaker 2>just another proposal to do it a slightly different way,

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.800
<v Speaker 2>and so each time they just reiterate and change it.

0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.600
<v Speaker 2>It's just a new battle, right, so they will change

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.760
<v Speaker 2>the words however they want to make it sound until

0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:47.199
<v Speaker 2>these people will vote yes for it. So like Nikki Lee,

0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.360
<v Speaker 2>which is the ward for a councilwoman, was the one

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>that was arguing against essentially saying that we should approve

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.320
<v Speaker 2>this project so we can have better control of it,

0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.560
<v Speaker 2>and the activists set against that. But it's just they're

0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.240
<v Speaker 2>just going to keep changing the tune until the activists

0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.199
<v Speaker 2>get essentially worn out. On top of that, this is

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.080
<v Speaker 2>not the only data center being proposed in Arizona. There

0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.000
<v Speaker 2>are currently three of them under proposal. So there's this

0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.000
<v Speaker 2>one in Tucson and two of them in Panall County.

0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.879
<v Speaker 2>The one in Panall County. Starts off at the small

0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:24.119
<v Speaker 2>size of three hundred acres, but it's proposed to go

0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>to three thousand acres. Jesus, they want to build a

0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.119
<v Speaker 2>ultimately a three thousand acre data center that sprawls essentially

0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:37.000
<v Speaker 2>from southern Phoenix across the entire north south breath of

0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Penall County on the west side of the I ten

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:45.440
<v Speaker 2>from southwest of Elois, extending through significant what are indigenous

0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:49.800
<v Speaker 2>or what were indigenous lands, destroying whatever cultural remains are there.

0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 2>But imagine if this two hundred and ninety acre data

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.520
<v Speaker 2>center was going to equal the power consumption and water

0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.959
<v Speaker 2>consumption of Tucson. What is a three thousand and acre

0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:02.480
<v Speaker 2>data center going to do.

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that's insane.

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.680
<v Speaker 2>That'ssts us And that one is currently still in its

0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 2>early phases. That one is called the Laosa Project. The

0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>CEO of this company is named Cold Deep Verma Okay,

0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:17.919
<v Speaker 2>Verma v r M. I'm not affectioner, that's the right pronunciation.

0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.040
<v Speaker 2>But in another example of tech bro narcissism, he's calling

0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.960
<v Speaker 2>this verma Land and his company is called vermal Land.

0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.439
<v Speaker 2>It's like the most awful version of Disneyland. We're not

0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>even bringing you rides. We're just gonna drink your water

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:34.800
<v Speaker 2>belt heat into the sky, destroy your desert so you

0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:40.119
<v Speaker 2>can have a disturbing psychological parasocial relationship with an ai avatar.

0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:42.760
<v Speaker 2>And we're gonna do it at your expense. Vermal Land,

0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Isn't that lovely?

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Man, I've seen that's weird. They already owned a

0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.200
<v Speaker 3>lot of land of the iten, I think.

0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. Yeah, No, they've been they've been purchasing land

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.200
<v Speaker 2>throughout Arizona and sitting on it. But this is where

0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 2>the three thousand acres come from, is Vermaaland.

0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Jesus, Yeah, that is uh, that's a mind bogglingly vast

0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 1>data center.

0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.040
<v Speaker 3>So I guess like this is one you know.

0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:17.200
<v Speaker 1>As you say, this will either move someone else. So

0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.479
<v Speaker 1>there will be other struggles, right like the For instance,

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.560
<v Speaker 1>the United States is waiving many of the waivers, including

0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.200
<v Speaker 1>ones that protect indigenous human remains, to build its border

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.040
<v Speaker 1>infrastructure right now. Actually a lot of the border infrastructure

0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:32.720
<v Speaker 1>is coming out of the U of A tech park

0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.280
<v Speaker 1>in Tucson, right, That's where a lot of these companies

0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:37.639
<v Speaker 1>have their headquarters.

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:40.840
<v Speaker 1>The people who make the border surveillance infrastructure, what can

0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:42.919
<v Speaker 1>we learn from this struggle in Tuson?

0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 3>If we're not in Tucson, we might not even be

0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:45.840
<v Speaker 3>in the US.

0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Because there are some unique things about Tucson, right, it

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.280
<v Speaker 1>has this history of activism, and it's always been I

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.480
<v Speaker 1>don't want to use weird in a derogatory way, but

0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.640
<v Speaker 1>it just hasn't conformed to like the neoliberal capital model

0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:00.360
<v Speaker 1>of a city. But I don't think it's unique. There

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.880
<v Speaker 1>were things I think that anyone can take from this victory,

0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.040
<v Speaker 1>and they continued opposition, right, So what can we learn

0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:07.359
<v Speaker 1>from it?

0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, No, I think that that's a fair way

0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:11.719
<v Speaker 2>to put it in. And I think that speaking of

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:14.119
<v Speaker 2>the reverberance of the history of the area and the

0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:16.320
<v Speaker 2>types of movements that came out of there, as we

0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.439
<v Speaker 2>mentioned already earlier, make Tucson unique in regards to it

0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:23.960
<v Speaker 2>being at least culturally more ready than someplace to have

0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:28.480
<v Speaker 2>this struggle. However, if they do succeed and completely stop

0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Project Blue and the two hundred and ninety are data

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:35.760
<v Speaker 2>center near Tucson is stopped, it's not going to stop there.

0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 2>We see three more data centers being proposed in Arizona proper,

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the three thousand acre dream site that I've mentioned already

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>is they're just going to keep changing and moving and

0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to do it somewhere else. The reality of this

0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 2>is that when we look back at the workers' rights

0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 2>movement right there was the IWW the Industrial Workers of

0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.040
<v Speaker 2>the world. The thing is tucson winning fight against this

0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:05.480
<v Speaker 2>data center only is a microcosm of the greater macrocosm

0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.920
<v Speaker 2>of the consumption of these tech bros and tech industry

0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 2>people who do not care about the climate, do not

0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.159
<v Speaker 2>care about you, do not care about the community, do

0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 2>not care about the water they consume, and they will

0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:20.240
<v Speaker 2>destroy everything in their patht for profit. We know that

0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:24.919
<v Speaker 2>that is what this form of data capitalism is. And

0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 2>so Tucson's lesson is everyone has to be this And

0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you that Tucson isn't unique in that

0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:33.320
<v Speaker 2>there are other places that will have the fight. But

0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:37.119
<v Speaker 2>this is truthfully everyone's fight, because the amount of pollution

0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:40.159
<v Speaker 2>that would be belched out of this data center or

0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:44.360
<v Speaker 2>the ones being proposed in Arizona affects everyone. The reality

0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.440
<v Speaker 2>of climate change is, in my opinion, indisputable. We're seeing

0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 2>it every year. It's worse, and it is human induced.

0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 2>At least to a large degree, unlike some people want

0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 2>to deny, and having your AI avatar on the Internet

0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:02.600
<v Speaker 2>is not in the interests of humanity as a whole.

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:04.800
<v Speaker 2>So we have to work on this a much larger

0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.000
<v Speaker 2>It's a global issue. Yeah, yeah, it is not. It

0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:09.399
<v Speaker 2>is not a local issue, That's what I'm trying to say.

0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:14.439
<v Speaker 2>And these data companies like Amazon, like Google, like Apple,

0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>although this isn't Apple in this instance, but all of them. Yeah,

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 2>they have the power, if not more of power than

0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 2>that of a nation state.

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, Like I think if my friend's in the

0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Marshall Islands, right, this small nation state, but one nonetheless, right,

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.399
<v Speaker 1>they will have maybe thirty or forty years before the

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:31.960
<v Speaker 1>island's around inhabitable due to the rise of the sea level.

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.760
<v Speaker 1>And like their response has been a to double down

0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:37.720
<v Speaker 1>on community and supporting each other.

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 1>They also did things like if you go in between

0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:42.399
<v Speaker 1>the islands on an Atoll and the Marshal Islands, generally

0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:44.959
<v Speaker 1>used like a Higgins boat, okay, a landing craft from

0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:46.720
<v Speaker 1>World War Two. Right, But they also have these solar

0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:51.800
<v Speaker 1>power canoes now to reduce their footprint. They're a tiny,

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.119
<v Speaker 1>tiny fraction of a single percent of the world CO

0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 1>two footprint, and so what happens in Tucson will affect them, right,

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:04.000
<v Speaker 1>and what they do cannot alone help them survive, right.

0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.640
<v Speaker 1>And they've appealed to the world's solidarity, made a whole

0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:09.720
<v Speaker 1>podcast about this, and the world has not shown up

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 1>for them.

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:12.760
<v Speaker 1>So, like I think, people, you're right, like this is

0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:15.880
<v Speaker 1>a global struggle. It's one that you know. It doesn't

0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:18.680
<v Speaker 1>stop in two sign, doesn't stop in Eloy, doesn't stop

0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:23.040
<v Speaker 1>in Phoenix, like it stops when these data centers, which

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:25.720
<v Speaker 1>are antithetical to our survival of a species, stop being

0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:27.600
<v Speaker 1>built for shit that we don't need.

0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:30.160
<v Speaker 2>This is touching on a point that always that frustrates

0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:32.760
<v Speaker 2>me frequently when we talk to people who are at

0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:35.240
<v Speaker 2>least on the right side minded in terms of being

0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:39.119
<v Speaker 2>concerned about our future, and they do the thing right,

0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:41.840
<v Speaker 2>They'll do their recycling, or they'll put up a solar panel,

0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.120
<v Speaker 2>all those things. Sure, but and this isn't to say

0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.639
<v Speaker 2>that the individuals shouldn't do the ethical and moral thing

0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:49.880
<v Speaker 2>that they can do when they can do it. Absolutely.

0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Can you recycle, sure do it. Can you put up

0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.560
<v Speaker 2>a solar panel, Absolutely do that. But the real truth

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:57.879
<v Speaker 2>and reality of climate change and the destruction of our

0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:01.480
<v Speaker 2>environment and this planet that we all inhabit. It's not

0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.880
<v Speaker 2>the individual, it's the corporations is at a nation state

0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:07.360
<v Speaker 2>level and a corporate level that is going to destroy

0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:12.720
<v Speaker 2>our small biosphere one. Ironically, biosphere is we'll talk about

0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:16.159
<v Speaker 2>the experiment is near Tucson. Actually Biosphere two was a

0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.199
<v Speaker 2>little experiment that was a self contained nineteen eighties thing

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:24.200
<v Speaker 2>where these scientists essentially encapsulated themselves in air tight bubbles

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:26.520
<v Speaker 2>to see if they could live with the CO two

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:28.920
<v Speaker 2>production that they were creating within it. The truth was

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:31.680
<v Speaker 2>they couldn't. The ocean turned to algae and they would

0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:34.720
<v Speaker 2>have died. So they learned Biosphere two wasn't going to work.

0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:37.600
<v Speaker 2>But we have bios for one, and the individual doing

0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:40.760
<v Speaker 2>the solar panels or recycling. That's a good thing, and

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 2>that's moral, but that's great, it's something we should do

0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:46.280
<v Speaker 2>if we can. But it's us we have to act

0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:50.000
<v Speaker 2>against the truly destructive forces. And it's the corporations and

0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:52.520
<v Speaker 2>the nation states that are belching destruction into our planet,

0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:56.640
<v Speaker 2>not the individual recycling or not recycling a soda can.

0:28:57.040 --> 0:28:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, And I think it's one of the greatest

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:04.720
<v Speaker 1>like fraud so edited cannods. These corporations amants to put

0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:07.960
<v Speaker 1>off it is to have people attribute blame for climate

0:29:08.040 --> 0:29:09.719
<v Speaker 1>change to the person, not recycling.

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:11.959
<v Speaker 3>That can not the corporation.

0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, the political spectrum is always challenging, and

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to like point at any one thing,

0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:20.880
<v Speaker 2>but this is where I think we all have our failings, right,

0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think this is where like progressive space fails often,

0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:27.920
<v Speaker 2>which is you'll see tone policing, and you'll see recycling,

0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 2>and you'll see solar panels. But the reality is that

0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:34.560
<v Speaker 2>isn't really doing shit. It just isn't in the grand

0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.120
<v Speaker 2>scheme of the numbers. It isn't it that data center.

0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Stopping that data center is an actual victory. That's something

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:42.240
<v Speaker 2>that needs to happen, and those things need to stop

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:45.240
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff across the board, not just in Tucson,

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:47.920
<v Speaker 2>not just in Arizona, but everywhere. It needs to be

0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.320
<v Speaker 2>a thing where everyone comes together and realizes that these

0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:56.040
<v Speaker 2>people are consuming the very planet that we need to

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 2>live on. You see Elon must talking about going to Mars.

0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 2>The human race has to go to Mars because a

0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:06.520
<v Speaker 2>meteor might hit the Earth. No your company is what

0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:09.480
<v Speaker 2>hit the earth, my friend, you're the one destroying the earth,

0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>not that meteor.

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, it's not external and they like the you know,

0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 1>it's it's coming from within, right, And it is if

0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:19.800
<v Speaker 1>you say, like it did the species level threat to us.

0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:22.080
<v Speaker 2>The calls literally coming from inside the house.

0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:26.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. But we should

0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.040
<v Speaker 1>also celebrate these victories and lemp in them. Right, So

0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:32.360
<v Speaker 1>if people are interested in learning more about the struggling

0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:35.520
<v Speaker 1>in Tucson, perhaps they're they're living in Phoenix and they're

0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:38.480
<v Speaker 1>just now learning about vermaaland right or these other AI.

0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 3>Projects, Like why can they find out more about this?

0:30:40.840 --> 0:30:42.080
<v Speaker 3>How can they involve themselves?

0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I want to first of all, I don't

0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:46.840
<v Speaker 2>I hope that I didn't come across as saying like

0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:48.800
<v Speaker 2>this is hopeless. I don't think it is. Like when

0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:51.120
<v Speaker 2>we see the actions of like what made two soon

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:54.000
<v Speaker 2>unique now, and we saw the actions of what Earththirst

0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:56.560
<v Speaker 2>was able to achieve through their decades of work, which

0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.520
<v Speaker 2>they did achieve a lot. It resonates still to this day.

0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:02.080
<v Speaker 2>The plan it is a better place because those people

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.800
<v Speaker 2>paid a price to do what they did, and that's

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:07.640
<v Speaker 2>just something that never stops, is what it boils down to. Yeah,

0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:10.720
<v Speaker 2>these these companies, these people will never stop trying to

0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:15.120
<v Speaker 2>destroy our home for their profit. So that's the point

0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:16.440
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to make. And so this was a

0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 2>success and we should celebrate that. Like you said, ye,

0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.360
<v Speaker 2>But what I want to reference is No Desert Datacenter

0:31:22.440 --> 0:31:25.080
<v Speaker 2>dot Com. Again, I want to very much point out

0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:27.520
<v Speaker 2>they are not the only ones. Many people came together.

0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>They're the one I have really been paying attention to.

0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 2>If you go to No Desert Datacenter dot com, they

0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:36.400
<v Speaker 2>have links to all their socials Instagram, Blue Sky, Facebook,

0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 2>and if you go to any of those, their Instagram

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:42.280
<v Speaker 2>is particularly active and has some great motivational art on it.

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I will tell you that they will also link you

0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 2>to a number of other organizations at the same time. Yeah,

0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>so if you're interested in this particular issue of these

0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:54.320
<v Speaker 2>data centers in Arizona, I would reference you to that.

0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>You can go to their link tree, which is also

0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:58.440
<v Speaker 2>linked from their Instagram, and that'll connect you to a

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 2>number of other organizations that are working on this right

0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:05.600
<v Speaker 2>now and to their merit the Project Blue. They succeeded

0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:09.160
<v Speaker 2>at least delaying Project Blue, hopefully stopping it. Yeah, and

0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.240
<v Speaker 2>the next post they put up was about the data

0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>center in Eloy, so they understand that this is broader

0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:16.240
<v Speaker 2>in scope than just one desert.

0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:17.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, data center.

0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:19.600
<v Speaker 2>That's great. Yeah, it's like it was in this movie

0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:22.440
<v Speaker 2>There will be Blood if you ever saw that. There's

0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 2>an amazing line. Of course, I drink your milkshake if

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:29.040
<v Speaker 2>you drink the water south of Tucson or don't. Yeah,

0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:31.120
<v Speaker 2>but then put a data center just north of Tucson.

0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:33.920
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't matter. It's the same watershed. Yeah, yeah, right,

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:38.160
<v Speaker 2>it's the same same problem. So no desert datacenter dot

0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:40.480
<v Speaker 2>com and that'll get you to a bunch of different

0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 2>links and a bunch of updates about what's going on

0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:43.840
<v Speaker 2>with this perfect and color.

0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:45.680
<v Speaker 1>If people want to follow your weg, I mean you

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:46.880
<v Speaker 1>have a presence on the internet.

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 3>Where can people find you?

0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, my project is not necessarily about the desert

0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:55.080
<v Speaker 2>data center, but I'm definitely obviously very sympathetic and part

0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:56.840
<v Speaker 2>of that too, just not on my project. I'm in

0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Range TV, So if you want to find all my work,

0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 2>you can find it by just easily going to Enrange

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 2>dot tv. And there's a link on there called watch

0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:07.080
<v Speaker 2>and that'll get you to all my socials. I distribute

0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>my video content. Decentralized YouTube is the is the line

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:12.760
<v Speaker 2>in the room must be realistic. But I have my

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.840
<v Speaker 2>content in multiple different places. The easiest way to find

0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:18.840
<v Speaker 2>all of them is range dot tv, and you'll find

0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 2>my socials there too, which is Facebook and Blue Sky

0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.160
<v Speaker 2>and all that. And of course my topic is more

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.240
<v Speaker 2>about firearms history and civil rights and how they intersect.

0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:29.240
<v Speaker 2>But if our ability to breathe and drink water isn't

0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:30.720
<v Speaker 2>human rights, I don't know what it is.

0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I think that's how we should see these things.

0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your time, Kyle. That was great, James,

0:33:35.640 --> 0:33:35.960
<v Speaker 1>thank you.

0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:37.880
<v Speaker 2>For having me. I appreciate It's always a real treat

0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to be on any of the shows here, and I

0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 2>love all the work you all are doing, and together

0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:44.760
<v Speaker 2>hopefully we can I don't know how to put it

0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:48.000
<v Speaker 2>stop these corporate maggots from eating our not yet corpse

0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:48.560
<v Speaker 2>of an earth.

0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, man, I think it's like, I guess I'll finish

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:53.160
<v Speaker 1>you up by saying like, it doesn't matter if Way

0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 1>confronting fascism, It doesn't matter if Way confronting this destruction

0:33:57.200 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 1>of our planet right. The only way through this is

0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:02.720
<v Speaker 1>to go and the only way that we defeat this

0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 1>is through building stronger communities to show up for one another.

0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:08.440
<v Speaker 1>And that's something that you have documented extensively in the

0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:10.759
<v Speaker 1>historical parts of your channel. So I think there is

0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.239
<v Speaker 1>a connection that I hope people can see there.

0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, community defense is also protecting our planets so we

0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:18.359
<v Speaker 2>can live on it. Yeah, I agree with that, and

0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:20.960
<v Speaker 2>we have to do that together. Thousands of people showing

0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:24.200
<v Speaker 2>up to city council meeting at Tucson is a glimmer

0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>of light in this moment, and hopefully we can see

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:26.960
<v Speaker 2>more of them.

0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, all right, Thanks KYP.

0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.880
<v Speaker 2>It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:38.160
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:40.759
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0:34:40.800 --> 0:34:44.879
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0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:47.120
<v Speaker 1>You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here

0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>listened directly in episode descriptions.

0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening.