1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Also media, Hello and welcome to the show. It's meet 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: James today, and I'm very fortunate to be joined by 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: a friend of the show, Kyle Cassada. 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: How you doing, Carl, Oh, I'm doing great. And when 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 2: I hear a friend of the show with any of 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: you all or you James, it's a real honor to me. 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: So I'm honored to be your friend and a friend 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: of the show. So I'm glad to be here. 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 3: No, thank you. 10 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: We always appreciate you being here and everything you do 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: within range. 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 3: Kyle. 13 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: We're not here to talk about gunstaff today Italy, which 14 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: is nice in a way because we're here to talk 15 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: about something which is also very important right in terms 16 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: of keeping people safe, and that is activism against corporate 17 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: destruction of our environment. We're here to talk about something 18 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: called Project Blue. Specifically, can you explain to listeners who 19 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: are not familiar, folks who maybe you haven't heard about it, 20 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: what Project Blue was proposed to be. 21 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not dead either. We'll talk about that more. 22 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: But the Project Blue, we'll see a two hundred ninety 23 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: acre data center. Project put that in scope, two hundred 24 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: and ninety acres whoa data center South of Tucson through 25 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: a company called Beel Infrastructure that through people's hard work, 26 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 2: came to find out it was for Amazon. But a 27 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: two hundred and ninety are AI data center south of Tucson. 28 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is vast. 29 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a like, I can't think 30 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: of a comparison for two hundred ninety eightis, but that 31 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: that is a huge amount of like computing power, right, I. 32 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: Guess it's hard to fathom that kind of space when 33 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 2: you think about it. Yeah, there are maps of what 34 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: this proposed data center's footprint is. And if you take 35 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: the rough rectangle of it and place it over Tucson proper, 36 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: the city of Tucson, that's they propose it to be 37 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: just south of it pretty much envelops and it consumes 38 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: the entire downtown of Tucson in multiple neighborhoods. That's how 39 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: big this is. And it's one data center. 40 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the data centers to do? Like what 41 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: if people aren't familiar, right, what is the data center 42 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: to do? What do they do with the big computer? 43 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: Well? Okay, so for people that aren't really into the 44 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 2: tech sector of things, a data center is essentially think 45 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: of something the size of a bigger than a mall 46 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: that has nothing but giant computer data banks in it. 47 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: So it's a giant place where you would think of 48 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: your old mainframes in the old days. It's not mainframes anymore, 49 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: but like it's racks and racks and racks of computing 50 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: power and connectivity to the Internet for the purposes of 51 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: whatever Amazon would want to do with this. So if 52 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: you go to use Amazon's infrastructure or use their AI, 53 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: that buzzphrase it now is everywhere the computers that do 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: those things or those requests or decide what products they 55 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: want to market to through their algorithm. That's what these 56 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: data centers do. So it's essentially an entire city of 57 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 2: just machines. Yeah, a tech cropolis is an interesting way 58 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: to put it. Like, not a netcropo, it's a tech cropolis. Yeah. 59 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: So imagine a few people maintaining an entire city of. 60 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: Machines, right and actively participating in like undermining the value 61 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: of labor for everyone else with this AI shit. 62 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: Well, that's part of this project're going to get into 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: a minute. Is one of the things they like to 64 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: propose is that it's going to bring jobs, but only 65 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: at the beginning and we'll talk about that more. Yeah. 66 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, let's talk about like people in Tucson did not. 67 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: Want this data center, right, Like there was a broad 68 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: based and well organized opposition to it. So perhaps we 69 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: should explain like why why? I mean, I guess people 70 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: listen to podcast are inclined to think data center bad. 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: But can you explain the impact that this would have 72 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: had on the city and the turning area? 73 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, So it's very interesting to me to 74 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: think about. So these data centers of this accord are 75 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: if you're interested in this topic and start googling, you're 76 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: going to find that this is, of course not the 77 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: first large or mega data center that's been implemented across 78 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: this country, because a number that are in Texas and 79 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: they are belching large amounts of pollution into the environment. 80 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: Cities nearby get absolutely destroyed by it. Typically they're brought 81 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: in through some sort of tax incentives by the local 82 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: city council or local county, and so that's exactly what 83 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: was happening here with Tucson. So the local city council 84 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: was pretty friendly to the idea. They were talking to 85 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: this beal infrastructure to bring in Project Blue. They were 86 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: giving tax cuts. They were giving all these incentives to 87 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: bring this gigantic megalithic thing into just south of town. 88 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: And part of the insidiousness of this is that this 89 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: was going to go forward until someone noticed it. Yeah, 90 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: it was just going to happen all of a sudden 91 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: one day this thing is there, right, But it was noticed. 92 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 2: And I don't honestly know exactly how it got noticed, 93 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: but it got noticed. And one of the things I 94 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: really find interesting, historically speaking, is how certain places and 95 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: cultures resonate over time with historical events from the past. 96 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: Tucson historically is an interesting place in terms of its 97 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: environmental activism. There's a number of things that happened in 98 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: Tucson in the nineteen sixties. There were groups that were 99 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: actively fighting the spread of highways highway infrastructure. They were 100 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: anti freeway, and their reasoning and rationale was it that 101 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: freeways were the arterial infrastructure that allowed for the destructive 102 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: spread of track pum developments. So the way to help, 103 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: one way is to prevent the destruction of the local 104 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 2: environment and the spread of a city was to diminish 105 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: its freeway footprint. And I think you can see this 106 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: is true if you look at any big city now 107 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: like Phoenix is essentially a hive city, and all of 108 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: the growth comes because of freeways, right. 109 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: Because people can get to work or whatever quickly, and 110 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: so you get commuter suburbs. 111 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: One thing that's always was interesting when I was doing 112 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: more work in infosec when people talk and this does 113 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: make sense. By the way, this is going to sound 114 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: off topic. I was talking to the information security architect 115 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: for McDonald's and we were working with them on putting 116 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: together a This is why this is interesting me as 117 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: a data center thing I used to do a lot 118 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 2: of work. They were talking about putting in a very 119 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: secure and encrypted data center for the purposes of protecting 120 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: their intellectual property. And I was talking to this guy. 121 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: I was like, what is this like your recipes or 122 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: what is it you it's a McDonald's protect Yeah, And 123 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: this was wild. No, they don't care about their recipes. 124 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: They were protecting their software that determines where they should 125 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: buy the next piece of real estate to put a McDonald's. 126 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: McDonald is actually a real estate company. And I have 127 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: seen this in real time with my life because I've 128 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: lived in a very remote part of the Arizona Desert. 129 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: The frontier for lack of a better term, of Arizona 130 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,239 Speaker 2: for a long time, and the first thing that popped 131 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 2: up in this one little area in the middle of 132 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: nowhere was a McDonald's. And now everywhere you see a 133 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: McDonald show up someplace that seems a little weird, give 134 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: it a few years and it's suddenly the epicenter of 135 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: a new tract one development. 136 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 3: Oh, they have some unique algorithm to determine. 137 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: They figure that out, and the McDonald's are the first 138 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: thing they're own, usually a gas station in a McDonald's, 139 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: and it essentially just looks like, oh, this is the 140 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: place to stop, take a leak and buy a burden. 141 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: But no, they buy all the land around it, and 142 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: then they start selling or leasing that to other businesses 143 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 2: as the growth happens. That's a big part of how 144 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: the McDonald's Corporation makes its main money. Fascinating, Yeah, and 145 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: so aligned with you put a freeway. When you see 146 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: a freeway suddenly show up in the middle of nowhere, 147 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: someone has a goal to put a giant tract home 148 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: development out there and sprawl that city a little more so. Anyways, 149 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: going back to the original topic, these people in Tucson 150 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: in the sixties were anti freeway and they actively changed 151 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: the way Tucson grew. And I think it's one of 152 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: the major reasons Tucson, if you've ever been to Tucson 153 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: versus Phoenix, is a very different, culturally different vibe of Phoenix. One. 154 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: It doesn't sprawl the same, yeah, and it still has 155 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: stuff that isn't strip malls. It actually has locally owned businesses, 156 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: It actually has some community resources, not all of its 157 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: tract home and strip malls. And I think a lot 158 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: of that is because of that freeway activism. 159 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 3: Yea. 160 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: Also, you look back into Tucson's past, love him or 161 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: hate him, or somewhere in between. The somewhat infamous author 162 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: Edward Abbey lived in Tucson and wrote The Monkey Wrench 163 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: Gang and wrote a lot of environmental acts divism. He 164 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: had a lot of views that were kind of deplorable, 165 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: but when it came to climate and when it came 166 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: to the environment, he was pretty on point. And his 167 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: work spawned an organization called Earth First, which was one 168 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: of the not the first, but one of the most 169 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: famous direct we're talking direct action, climate activity or Clyde. 170 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: You know, they were the ones that were destroying bulldozers, 171 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: driving them off cliffs, some burning down Ski Shelle's like 172 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: pretty wild stuff because they believed there was no retreat 173 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: in defensive Mother Earth. He's a quote, but anyways, he 174 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: was Tucson. Earth First birthed in Tucson, and then Earth 175 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: First was a victim of the green scare. And many 176 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 2: of them are still in prison for their work. But 177 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: they did have an effect. Whether you agree with that 178 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: sort of direct activism or not, they had an effect. 179 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: But here we are. It's been many years after those 180 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: big main activities and all that stuff sort of became quiet. 181 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 2: You don't really think of like direct action activism when 182 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: it comes to the environment like you did back in 183 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties. But when this data center popped 184 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: up group started showing up in Tucson, that really felt 185 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: very earth First e. I'm not talking direct action like firebombs, 186 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: but their speech, the way they were organizing, coming to 187 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: city council meetings and not just showing up to speak, 188 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: but disrupting the meetings like causing a scene. And their 189 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: work so far, and I will mention some of them 190 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: later in this topic, how actually sort of forced the 191 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 2: hand of the city Council to deny the project, and 192 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: so looking back, you're like, it's interesting to see the 193 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: residents of things like those old freeway activists and Edward 194 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: Abbey and Earth First it's still there. Tucson still has that, 195 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: and you see that coming up now in regards to 196 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: this data center project and other things that are starting 197 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: to happen. Yeah. 198 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I love Tucson and spent a lot of time in 199 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: Tucson for years and years and years, and there is 200 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: a feeling of like it has got this like diy 201 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: community feeling that you do not experience. People think Tucson 202 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: and Phoenix are they just small divasion of the same, 203 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: But they're incredibly different. 204 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, it's hard to describe the difference. You 205 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: have to go to both. 206 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Oh, you could not go to Phoenix. You 207 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: can go almost anywhere else in the US and experience 208 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: the same thing as Phoenix. Rite incredibly generic as the city. 209 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the Phoenix is an old place too, 210 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: not as old as Tucson, but the very core the 211 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: downtown of Phoenix still has something. However, Phoenix was never 212 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: good about preserving any of its historicity or historical content, 213 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: and so they never saw a building old enough or 214 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: cool enough that they didn't care about bulldozing it and 215 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: putting up a Walgreens. Yeah, and so Phoenix is as 216 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: I forgot what documentary it was, but it was like 217 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: what you just described so many American cities. You drive 218 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: to it and it's just like this, like constantly looping 219 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: revolving piece of film of Walgreen, McDonald's nail salon, super cuts, 220 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: Chili's rinse and repeat. Yeah, and it just every ten miles. 221 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 2: It's the same thing Dutch Brother's coffee. It just never ends. 222 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: And Tucson is not yet like that. It still has 223 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: still has a soul. 224 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are special places in Phoenix who say, like 225 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: Guadalupe is cool when my yagie friends live this and 226 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: I Sarah, I like getting there. Let's take a little 227 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: break and talk about how Tuson and Post is data center. 228 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: So there are a number of groups that came togethers 229 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: if you can't track everything all at once, because it's 230 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: not possible to human being. But the one I've been 231 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: keeping eye on and communicating with is called No Desert 232 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: Data Center. They have a presence on the web. They're 233 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: all over social media, Facebook, Instagram, and for me at least. 234 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: And this is not to exclude anyone. If if you're 235 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 2: one of the primary people or groups that we're working 236 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: against this and you heard this, please do not feel 237 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: like I'm excluding you. This is just the group that 238 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 2: I landed up connecting with and following. So but they 239 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: are also doing a good job of aggregating others too. 240 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: So almost all of their posts have like a bunch 241 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: of other groups tagged in it. So if you were 242 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 2: to look up the No Desert Data Center folks, you're 243 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: going to find a lot of them. But they had 244 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: some amazing artwork. You know. One of the things that 245 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: I think is really important in activism is getting the 246 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 2: attention of the local community. Artwork will do that. So 247 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: if they'd this incredible poster that's like says no drop 248 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: for data and it's a water drop with a rattlesnake 249 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: and havlina and a solaro and they had a rattlesnake 250 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: wrapped around a rain drop. Really good stuff that catches 251 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: your eye. So they were doing that, but they were 252 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: also getting people together. They were having meetings, planning sessions 253 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: before city council meetings, getting people together, doing the artwork 254 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: there rallying the troops for lack of a better term, 255 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: building morale. You don't have activism without morale. And then 256 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: they were showing up and showing up in numbers. There's 257 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: videos on Instagram on their feet alone, where one of 258 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: these city council meetings had over one thousand Twusonians in 259 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: it with signs and posters. And they weren't just sitting 260 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: there quietly waiting for their thirty seconds to speak. They 261 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: were disruptive, They were loud, and they were not going 262 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: to not be heard. So that type of activism in 263 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: this instance very clearly is the reason that this happened. 264 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: Because if you read the writings of a number of 265 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: the city council members, they were very sympathetic to the 266 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: data center. One of them was talking about, like, this 267 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: is the wrong thing to do. If we block the 268 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: data center, they're just going to build it anyway, and 269 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: it's better for us to be involved because then we 270 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: can help tune it to be better for the community. No, no, no, no, no, 271 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: you're just whitewashing a horrible thing. And so this group 272 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: and other groups called them out on that immediately. Nice 273 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: so like, no, that's not it. So I think I'm 274 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: answering your question. But it's groups like this, yeah, throwing 275 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: up in large numbers, being loud not only online but 276 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 2: in person that forced their hand. That's crazio. 277 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 278 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's people actually being willing to get out of 279 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: the tweets and into the streets so to speak, to 280 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: like actually show up in this case of these meetings. 281 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: But it doesn't have to just be meetings, could be anywhere. 282 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: I guess we should just talk about like Tusunday. It's 283 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: from audham Wood. It means dot corner, but it is 284 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: not a cool place. It is cooler the Phoenix. Actually, 285 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: let's hot that, like this data center would have consumed 286 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: a massive amount of energy I presumed, like just keeping 287 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: the computers cooled right, and a massive amount of water. 288 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: To do that. 289 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So when you start talking about heat, for example, 290 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: I think it's worth I know we don't have infinite 291 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: time here on this podcast, but it's worth noting for 292 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: people that are not familiar with the concept of heat islands. Yeah, 293 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: heat islands are where you build so much metropolitan infrastructure, 294 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: including asphalt and concrete, with no thought boards heat or cooling. 295 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: You really don't, like Phoenix was built without thinking about that. 296 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: They're thinking about it now, but it wasn't built thinking 297 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: about it when it sprawled, and it was continually to sprawl. Ye, 298 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: Phoenix was always a little hotter than Tuson, just because 299 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: of like you know, geographical reasons. But now Phoenix is 300 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: measurably and demonstrably hotter yet because it never cool off. 301 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: And that's a heat island. So what happens is during 302 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: the day, all of that I'll create, all that asphalt, 303 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: all those things heat up, and it'll get to at 304 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: moments like just this last week, one hundred and eighteen, 305 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty degree in the middle of the day. 306 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: But because the heat island hasn't been architected well and 307 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: has no green space to deal with this, at night, 308 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: it's still one hundred and five. Jesus see, it never 309 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: gets below one hundred and So the problem with heat, 310 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: like obviously one hundred and twenty degrees can kill you. 311 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: But the problem with the heat is that as you 312 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: never get a chance to cool off, heat over time 313 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: is more dangerous to human to all living organisms. If 314 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: you get a break, that's what keeps you alive. So 315 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: it could be one hundred and twenty during the day, 316 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: but if it's seventy five at night, that gives you 317 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: a moment to heal and recuperate for the next day's heat. 318 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: Phoenix is not the worst, believe it or not, but 319 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: one of the worst versions of a heat island, and 320 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: they are actively working to make that better. But it's 321 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: kind of hard to undo what's been done. Yeah, Tucson, 322 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: once again, because the sprawl is diminished by activism of 323 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: the past, did not become the heat island. Phoenix does. 324 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: So while it might be one hundred and thirteen during 325 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: the day, it might get down to eighty at night. Yeah, 326 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: and that really is a big difference for not only sustainability, 327 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: but for the health and safety of everyone that lives there. 328 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: One of the things that I find is interesting is 329 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: the justification for these data centers is because Arizona is 330 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: seen as a place that doesn't have significant natural disaster risk. 331 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: But one of the things that's being left out of 332 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: the conversation I don't know why this is the case, 333 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: is that heat and heat islands are a natural disaster. 334 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, they kill people. 335 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: If the power were to go out in Phoenix at 336 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: the wrong time of year, the death toll is hard 337 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: to fathom. 338 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, people, Yeah, without air conditioning, it's unsurvivable in 339 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: those temperatures, especially for older people, people medically conditioned. 340 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: So what have you Anyone at risk? The unhoused is 341 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: one example course, which they don't even do proper metrics 342 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: and measuring of because our society doesn't care like it should. However, 343 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 2: outside of that, you said people that are at risk, 344 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: anyone that has any sort of illness, the young, the elderly, 345 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: and anyone like that, they have to live in their 346 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: air conditioned spaceship to survive. Yeah. 347 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it would have taken it, like you say, 348 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: a huge amount of cooling just to keep this data center. 349 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: Well that's where this gets so fascinating when they start 350 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: proposing these because like, oh, let's be realistic, right, Arizona 351 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: is probably low risk for a dramatic earthquake or a hurricane, 352 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: that's fair. Yeah, However, it is not a low risk 353 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: for a heat casualty event, which is going on every 354 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 2: year and getting worse with climate change. And so these 355 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 2: data centers, the one in twoson that was proposed, what 356 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: have consumed and the numbers fluctuate and the course the 357 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: numbers you get from the Amazon crew versus others will 358 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: be a little different. But as best as I can tell, 359 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: the our consumption of this one data center was essentially 360 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 2: the equivalent of that of Metropolitan on pieces. Yeah, so 361 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: you double the power load of the entire city for 362 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: this data center. And the cooling system. There's two different 363 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: ways to cool there's qut unquote air cooled and water cooled. 364 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: They can tell you whatever they want. The reality is 365 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 2: they're probably not going to be affected with air cooled 366 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: in this environment, so it's going to be water cooled. 367 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: And the data on that also seems to be the 368 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: water consumption of this was not only equal, may be 369 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: worse than that of Tucson itself. Looking at this site 370 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 2: right now. Water positivity claim for the initial two years, 371 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: but the initial estimate was six hundred and twenty two 372 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: million gallons. Whoa yeah, yeah, with a seven hundred miliwad 373 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: expected demand, it's crazy. And so what happens is not 374 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 2: only does the city council just see dollar signs in 375 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: their eyes, local electrical infrastructure like TEP, the two soon 376 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: Electrical or other data center places where data centers are 377 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: located suddenly do things like stop worrying about any form 378 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: of carbon positivity, or they get rid of all their 379 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 2: carbon goals so that they can build and work with 380 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: people like this, Because if you double the power consumption 381 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 2: of a region overnight for a data center, yeah, think 382 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: of the waste that you're going to produce to do that, right, Yeah, 383 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: And suddenly how do you produce that power. You're not 384 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: going to have a nuclear plant pop up tomorrow, so 385 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: you're going to do other things like burn more coal. Yeah, 386 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: and so your carbon and carbon positivity or an attempt 387 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: to move away from carbon waste, they just throw that 388 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: out the door so they can have these lucrative, juicy 389 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: contracts with these data centers. 390 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is I mean, it's just on the 391 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: face of it. When I heard of it, I was 392 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: just like, why are they doing this in one of 393 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: the hottest places you know in the region. But I 394 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: guess yeah, they just don't see heat as a threat. 395 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: Having spent a lot of time in the desert there, 396 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: I can tell you it is a threat to human life. 397 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: So as of last week, right, the Council has refused 398 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: it permission to be built in. 399 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: Tucson due to intense external pressure. They were they did 400 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: vote against it. 401 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, so that's like it's a victory. I guess 402 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: it's a victory in a battle, but it's not the 403 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: end of the war. 404 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: Oh No. That's the problem with all this is that 405 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: these companies and these folks will never stop. So I 406 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: just saw an article in fact that two days ago, yes, 407 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: this project was voted down. However, they're coming back with 408 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 2: just another proposal to do it a slightly different way, 409 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: and so each time they just reiterate and change it. 410 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: It's just a new battle, right, so they will change 411 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: the words however they want to make it sound until 412 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: these people will vote yes for it. So like Nikki Lee, 413 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 2: which is the ward for a councilwoman, was the one 414 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: that was arguing against essentially saying that we should approve 415 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 2: this project so we can have better control of it, 416 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: and the activists set against that. But it's just they're 417 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: just going to keep changing the tune until the activists 418 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: get essentially worn out. On top of that, this is 419 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: not the only data center being proposed in Arizona. There 420 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: are currently three of them under proposal. So there's this 421 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: one in Tucson and two of them in Panall County. 422 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: The one in Panall County. Starts off at the small 423 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 2: size of three hundred acres, but it's proposed to go 424 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: to three thousand acres. Jesus, they want to build a 425 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 2: ultimately a three thousand acre data center that sprawls essentially 426 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 2: from southern Phoenix across the entire north south breath of 427 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: Penall County on the west side of the I ten 428 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 2: from southwest of Elois, extending through significant what are indigenous 429 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: or what were indigenous lands, destroying whatever cultural remains are there. 430 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: But imagine if this two hundred and ninety acre data 431 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: center was going to equal the power consumption and water 432 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 2: consumption of Tucson. What is a three thousand and acre 433 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: data center going to do. 434 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's insane. 435 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: That'ssts us And that one is currently still in its 436 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: early phases. That one is called the Laosa Project. The 437 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: CEO of this company is named Cold Deep Verma Okay, 438 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: Verma v r M. I'm not affectioner, that's the right pronunciation. 439 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: But in another example of tech bro narcissism, he's calling 440 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: this verma Land and his company is called vermal Land. 441 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 2: It's like the most awful version of Disneyland. We're not 442 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: even bringing you rides. We're just gonna drink your water 443 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: belt heat into the sky, destroy your desert so you 444 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: can have a disturbing psychological parasocial relationship with an ai avatar. 445 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: And we're gonna do it at your expense. Vermal Land, 446 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: Isn't that lovely? 447 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 3: Yeah? Man, I've seen that's weird. They already owned a 448 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 3: lot of land of the iten, I think. 449 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, No, they've been they've been purchasing land 450 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: throughout Arizona and sitting on it. But this is where 451 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: the three thousand acres come from, is Vermaaland. 452 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: Jesus, Yeah, that is uh, that's a mind bogglingly vast 453 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: data center. 454 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: So I guess like this is one you know. 455 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: As you say, this will either move someone else. So 456 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 1: there will be other struggles, right like the For instance, 457 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: the United States is waiving many of the waivers, including 458 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: ones that protect indigenous human remains, to build its border 459 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: infrastructure right now. Actually a lot of the border infrastructure 460 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: is coming out of the U of A tech park 461 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: in Tucson, right, That's where a lot of these companies 462 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: have their headquarters. 463 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: Right. 464 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: The people who make the border surveillance infrastructure, what can 465 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: we learn from this struggle in Tuson? 466 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: If we're not in Tucson, we might not even be 467 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: in the US. 468 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: Because there are some unique things about Tucson, right, it 469 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: has this history of activism, and it's always been I 470 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: don't want to use weird in a derogatory way, but 471 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: it just hasn't conformed to like the neoliberal capital model 472 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: of a city. But I don't think it's unique. There 473 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: were things I think that anyone can take from this victory, 474 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: and they continued opposition, right, So what can we learn 475 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: from it? 476 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, No, I think that that's a fair way 477 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 2: to put it in. And I think that speaking of 478 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: the reverberance of the history of the area and the 479 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: types of movements that came out of there, as we 480 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 2: mentioned already earlier, make Tucson unique in regards to it 481 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 2: being at least culturally more ready than someplace to have 482 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: this struggle. However, if they do succeed and completely stop 483 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: Project Blue and the two hundred and ninety are data 484 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: center near Tucson is stopped, it's not going to stop there. 485 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: We see three more data centers being proposed in Arizona proper, 486 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 2: the three thousand acre dream site that I've mentioned already 487 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: is they're just going to keep changing and moving and 488 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: trying to do it somewhere else. The reality of this 489 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: is that when we look back at the workers' rights 490 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: movement right there was the IWW the Industrial Workers of 491 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: the world. The thing is tucson winning fight against this 492 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: data center only is a microcosm of the greater macrocosm 493 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: of the consumption of these tech bros and tech industry 494 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: people who do not care about the climate, do not 495 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: care about you, do not care about the community, do 496 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: not care about the water they consume, and they will 497 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: destroy everything in their patht for profit. We know that 498 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: that is what this form of data capitalism is. And 499 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: so Tucson's lesson is everyone has to be this And 500 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: I agree with you that Tucson isn't unique in that 501 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: there are other places that will have the fight. But 502 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: this is truthfully everyone's fight, because the amount of pollution 503 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: that would be belched out of this data center or 504 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 2: the ones being proposed in Arizona affects everyone. The reality 505 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: of climate change is, in my opinion, indisputable. We're seeing 506 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: it every year. It's worse, and it is human induced. 507 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: At least to a large degree, unlike some people want 508 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: to deny, and having your AI avatar on the Internet 509 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: is not in the interests of humanity as a whole. 510 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: So we have to work on this a much larger 511 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: It's a global issue. Yeah, yeah, it is not. It 512 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 2: is not a local issue, That's what I'm trying to say. 513 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 2: And these data companies like Amazon, like Google, like Apple, 514 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: although this isn't Apple in this instance, but all of them. Yeah, 515 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: they have the power, if not more of power than 516 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: that of a nation state. 517 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like I think if my friend's in the 518 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: Marshall Islands, right, this small nation state, but one nonetheless, right, 519 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: they will have maybe thirty or forty years before the 520 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: island's around inhabitable due to the rise of the sea level. 521 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: And like their response has been a to double down 522 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: on community and supporting each other. 523 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: Right. 524 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: They also did things like if you go in between 525 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: the islands on an Atoll and the Marshal Islands, generally 526 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: used like a Higgins boat, okay, a landing craft from 527 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: World War Two. Right, But they also have these solar 528 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: power canoes now to reduce their footprint. They're a tiny, 529 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: tiny fraction of a single percent of the world CO 530 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: two footprint, and so what happens in Tucson will affect them, right, 531 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: and what they do cannot alone help them survive, right. 532 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: And they've appealed to the world's solidarity, made a whole 533 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: podcast about this, and the world has not shown up 534 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: for them. 535 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: Right. 536 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: So, like I think, people, you're right, like this is 537 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: a global struggle. It's one that you know. It doesn't 538 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: stop in two sign, doesn't stop in Eloy, doesn't stop 539 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: in Phoenix, like it stops when these data centers, which 540 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: are antithetical to our survival of a species, stop being 541 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: built for shit that we don't need. 542 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: This is touching on a point that always that frustrates 543 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: me frequently when we talk to people who are at 544 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: least on the right side minded in terms of being 545 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: concerned about our future, and they do the thing right, 546 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: They'll do their recycling, or they'll put up a solar panel, 547 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 2: all those things. Sure, but and this isn't to say 548 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: that the individuals shouldn't do the ethical and moral thing 549 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: that they can do when they can do it. Absolutely. 550 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: Can you recycle, sure do it. Can you put up 551 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: a solar panel, Absolutely do that. But the real truth 552 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: and reality of climate change and the destruction of our 553 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: environment and this planet that we all inhabit. It's not 554 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 2: the individual, it's the corporations is at a nation state 555 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: level and a corporate level that is going to destroy 556 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: our small biosphere one. Ironically, biosphere is we'll talk about 557 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: the experiment is near Tucson. Actually Biosphere two was a 558 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 2: little experiment that was a self contained nineteen eighties thing 559 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: where these scientists essentially encapsulated themselves in air tight bubbles 560 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: to see if they could live with the CO two 561 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: production that they were creating within it. The truth was 562 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 2: they couldn't. The ocean turned to algae and they would 563 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: have died. So they learned Biosphere two wasn't going to work. 564 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: But we have bios for one, and the individual doing 565 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: the solar panels or recycling. That's a good thing, and 566 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: that's moral, but that's great, it's something we should do 567 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: if we can. But it's us we have to act 568 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: against the truly destructive forces. And it's the corporations and 569 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: the nation states that are belching destruction into our planet, 570 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: not the individual recycling or not recycling a soda can. 571 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think it's one of the greatest 572 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: like fraud so edited cannods. These corporations amants to put 573 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: off it is to have people attribute blame for climate 574 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 1: change to the person, not recycling. 575 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,959 Speaker 3: That can not the corporation. 576 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the political spectrum is always challenging, and 577 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to like point at any one thing, 578 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: but this is where I think we all have our failings, right, 579 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: and I think this is where like progressive space fails often, 580 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: which is you'll see tone policing, and you'll see recycling, 581 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: and you'll see solar panels. But the reality is that 582 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: isn't really doing shit. It just isn't in the grand 583 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: scheme of the numbers. It isn't it that data center. 584 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: Stopping that data center is an actual victory. That's something 585 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: that needs to happen, and those things need to stop 586 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff across the board, not just in Tucson, 587 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 2: not just in Arizona, but everywhere. It needs to be 588 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: a thing where everyone comes together and realizes that these 589 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: people are consuming the very planet that we need to 590 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: live on. You see Elon must talking about going to Mars. 591 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: The human race has to go to Mars because a 592 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: meteor might hit the Earth. No your company is what 593 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: hit the earth, my friend, you're the one destroying the earth, 594 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: not that meteor. 595 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's not external and they like the you know, 596 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: it's it's coming from within, right, And it is if 597 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: you say, like it did the species level threat to us. 598 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: The calls literally coming from inside the house. 599 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. But we should 600 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: also celebrate these victories and lemp in them. Right, So 601 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: if people are interested in learning more about the struggling 602 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: in Tucson, perhaps they're they're living in Phoenix and they're 603 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: just now learning about vermaaland right or these other AI. 604 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 3: Projects, Like why can they find out more about this? 605 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: How can they involve themselves? 606 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to first of all, I don't 607 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: I hope that I didn't come across as saying like 608 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: this is hopeless. I don't think it is. Like when 609 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: we see the actions of like what made two soon 610 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: unique now, and we saw the actions of what Earththirst 611 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: was able to achieve through their decades of work, which 612 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: they did achieve a lot. It resonates still to this day. 613 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: The plan it is a better place because those people 614 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: paid a price to do what they did, and that's 615 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: just something that never stops, is what it boils down to. Yeah, 616 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: these these companies, these people will never stop trying to 617 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: destroy our home for their profit. So that's the point 618 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: I was trying to make. And so this was a 619 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 2: success and we should celebrate that. Like you said, ye, 620 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: But what I want to reference is No Desert Datacenter 621 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: dot Com. Again, I want to very much point out 622 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: they are not the only ones. Many people came together. 623 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 2: They're the one I have really been paying attention to. 624 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 2: If you go to No Desert Datacenter dot com, they 625 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: have links to all their socials Instagram, Blue Sky, Facebook, 626 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: and if you go to any of those, their Instagram 627 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 2: is particularly active and has some great motivational art on it. 628 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: I will tell you that they will also link you 629 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: to a number of other organizations at the same time. Yeah, 630 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: so if you're interested in this particular issue of these 631 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: data centers in Arizona, I would reference you to that. 632 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: You can go to their link tree, which is also 633 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 2: linked from their Instagram, and that'll connect you to a 634 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: number of other organizations that are working on this right 635 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: now and to their merit the Project Blue. They succeeded 636 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: at least delaying Project Blue, hopefully stopping it. Yeah, and 637 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: the next post they put up was about the data 638 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: center in Eloy, so they understand that this is broader 639 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: in scope than just one desert. 640 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, data center. 641 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: That's great. Yeah, it's like it was in this movie 642 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: There will be Blood if you ever saw that. There's 643 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: an amazing line. Of course, I drink your milkshake if 644 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: you drink the water south of Tucson or don't. Yeah, 645 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: but then put a data center just north of Tucson. 646 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. It's the same watershed. Yeah, yeah, right, 647 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: it's the same same problem. So no desert datacenter dot 648 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: com and that'll get you to a bunch of different 649 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: links and a bunch of updates about what's going on 650 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: with this perfect and color. 651 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: If people want to follow your weg, I mean you 652 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: have a presence on the internet. 653 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: Where can people find you? 654 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 655 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, my project is not necessarily about the desert 656 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: data center, but I'm definitely obviously very sympathetic and part 657 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: of that too, just not on my project. I'm in 658 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: Range TV, So if you want to find all my work, 659 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: you can find it by just easily going to Enrange 660 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: dot tv. And there's a link on there called watch 661 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: and that'll get you to all my socials. I distribute 662 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: my video content. Decentralized YouTube is the is the line 663 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: in the room must be realistic. But I have my 664 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: content in multiple different places. The easiest way to find 665 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: all of them is range dot tv, and you'll find 666 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: my socials there too, which is Facebook and Blue Sky 667 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: and all that. And of course my topic is more 668 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: about firearms history and civil rights and how they intersect. 669 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: But if our ability to breathe and drink water isn't 670 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 2: human rights, I don't know what it is. 671 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's how we should see these things. 672 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time, Kyle. That was great, James, 673 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: thank you. 674 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: For having me. I appreciate It's always a real treat 675 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: to be on any of the shows here, and I 676 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: love all the work you all are doing, and together 677 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: hopefully we can I don't know how to put it 678 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: stop these corporate maggots from eating our not yet corpse 679 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: of an earth. 680 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I think it's like, I guess I'll finish 681 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: you up by saying like, it doesn't matter if Way 682 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: confronting fascism, It doesn't matter if Way confronting this destruction 683 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: of our planet right. The only way through this is 684 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: to go and the only way that we defeat this 685 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: is through building stronger communities to show up for one another. 686 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: And that's something that you have documented extensively in the 687 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: historical parts of your channel. So I think there is 688 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: a connection that I hope people can see there. 689 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, community defense is also protecting our planets so we 690 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 2: can live on it. Yeah, I agree with that, and 691 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: we have to do that together. Thousands of people showing 692 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: up to city council meeting at Tucson is a glimmer 693 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: of light in this moment, and hopefully we can see 694 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: more of them. 695 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Thanks KYP. 696 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 697 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 698 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 699 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 700 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here 701 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: listened directly in episode descriptions. 702 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.