1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians, choo too. Thank you as 3 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: always so much for tuning in. For super producer mister 4 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Max Williams. Chug a chugga. 5 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: Higher locomotive guys, Ben, that's you. I'm no, I did 6 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: I do dig trains. I don't know what it is. 7 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: There's something in the mind of the young boy that 8 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: just makes you predisposed to digging machines. But I've mentioned 9 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: multiple times, Ben, as i've got a little older, I've 10 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: even first they're kind of gone down the rabbit hole 11 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 2: of engineering and you know, clockwork stuff. I mean, I 12 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: think you and I are both a little bit into 13 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: watches and all of that stuff these days. But yeah, 14 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 2: I get it, man, trains, locomote is all the moving parts, 15 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: the engineering of it all. 16 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: It's fascinating to me. 17 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's no Brown. I've been bullying 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: where We've got to mention one thing at the top 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: of Max. I don't want to put you on the 20 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: spot too much. 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 3: Max. 22 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Not too long ago, Max, Max Williams, you and I 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: got involved in some pretty cool conversations about model trains 24 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: which you were. Pater Familius is a big fan of Oh. 25 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a mild train collector. 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: He loves it by the way, that means fare right, yes, 27 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: cool google, or like patriarchical gout it. We had a 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: episode back in twenty twenty four March twenty twenty four 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: called back to the Choo. 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: I'm not going to try this one vent. We had 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 3: an episode about model trains, back to the Tuture. 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 33 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: You know who else is really in the Monel trans 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: two people? Sebastian Bach from skid Row. There is an 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: episode of Trailer Park Boys where he is featured and 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: Neil Young. But I also just found out something else 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 2: interesting about Sebastian Bach. He briefly was in a Broadway 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: production of Jesus Christ Superstar and he got fired because 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: he was horrible. 40 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: He did the skid Row scream. 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say he just kept going 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: to his trailer to play with train trailer. 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, apparently I saw. You can find clips of 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: it if you want. 45 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: I was blissfully unaware of this, and it is fascinating 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: because he looks like he is in a very different 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: production than the rest of the cast. 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: Let's just leave it there. 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: Another thing that a lot of us are blissfully unaware 50 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: of in American society today is this house Yon era 51 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: of tall tales, larger than life American heroes from folklore 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: andrely guys. Remember we did a deep dive into a 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: heartwarming i'll call him thoroughly eccentric dude called Johnny Appleseed 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: or John Chapman. 55 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: Hmm. And I think we mentioned in that episode the 56 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: Disney shorts that featured a lot of these folks, and 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: there actually was a John Henry one that it came 58 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 2: a good bit later. The Johnny Appleseed one is quite 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: a bit older. But I believe the Walt Disney Animation 60 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: Studio released a short film detailing the myth, the urban legend, 61 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: the folkloric tale of John Henry the Steel Driving Man, 62 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: back in two thousand. 63 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: That is correct, and today we are tackling another story. 64 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: This is important to me. I think it's important to 65 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: all of us in the West especially. It's a story 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: that only grows more relevant as Americans and the world 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: overall grow increasingly concerned about the implications and consequences of 68 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: l m's AI and automation. It's the legend of John Henry, 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: most famous to a lot of grade school kids for 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: a ballad, and Nola, we're okay with it. I'd love 71 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: to share just a snippet of a version of this song. 72 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: Oh, surely it's in the public domain at this point. 73 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 3: Let's do it. When John Henry was a little baby boy, 74 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: you get hold him in the bomb of your hand. 75 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: He gave a long and lost man. What does it 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: mean to be a steel driving man? Ben? What does 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: it mean? 78 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: Ah? Yes, yes, this is a great question, which that's 79 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 1: one of the questions we can solve in today's episode, Nolan. 80 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: But we may not be able to solve all of 81 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: the questions about the legend of John Henry. As we'll see, 82 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: there's a mystery afoot, or, if you prefer, fellow ridiculous historians, 83 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: a mystery on the rails. What say we start with 84 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: the legend. 85 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: I certainly heard this tale when I was a youth 86 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 2: in primary school, though it may be something that has been, 87 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: you know, moved away from a little bit in modern times. 88 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 2: Not one hundred percent sure, I couldn't say, but it 89 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: seems like that's entirely likely, because I don't think that 90 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: a lot of the younger generation know much about John Henry, 91 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: the steel driving man. So according to the tale, he 92 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: was born a slave in eighteen forty. 93 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: It was freed after the Civil War. 94 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: John then found work as a steel driver for the 95 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company. So I believe been a 96 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: steel driver is someone that hammers the kind of I 97 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: guess you could call them supports field sort of railroad 98 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: ties right into solid rock. 99 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: Well, they're not the same as the ties. 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: These are more for like building out the tunnels that 101 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: the trains would go into. So these would be like 102 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: having to hammer steal into the solid rock to help 103 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: build the supports for the railroads, you know, for hollowing 104 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: out these tunnels and mountains. 105 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you hollow out the tunnels by hammering into the rock, 106 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: creating a cavity wherein explosives of some sort are inserted, 107 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: which blows up more space right into whatever you're trying 108 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: to delve through. And then you move forward a little 109 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: bit at a time in these harsh weather conditions, and 110 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: then you blow it up again, and then you do 111 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: it again and again, add nauseum, until you get through 112 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: the mountain. And our buddy John Henry is widely renowned, 113 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: according to the legend, as the strongest, most efficient, best, 114 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: gosh darned steel driver in all the area. We do 115 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: have to mention that in real life steel driving at 116 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: this time in the eighteen hundreds, you're working in two 117 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: man teams. Like how a sniper as a spotter. If 118 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: you're a steel driver, you've got the hammer, but you've 119 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: got a second guy called the shaker, and they are 120 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: I feel like they don't get enough praise because they 121 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: have to crouch pretty close to the hole with a 122 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: little chisel and turn the drill after each time the 123 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: hammer blows. So it's like if you have ever folks, 124 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: if you've ever used hammers and carpentry or something like that, 125 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: you know you have to have one hand holding the 126 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: nail or a hair comb if you want to do 127 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: a smart trick, right, and then you got the other 128 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: your thumb if you're not careful, right, right. So think 129 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: of each member of the team as one of the hands. Right, 130 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: John Henry is the hand, but the hammer, the shaker 131 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: is the hand kind of holding the nail for our purposes. Uh, 132 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: it's it's huge work. The railroad that you mentioned there, 133 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: the cno is moving a log chew chewing along, but 134 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: they have a big problem ahead. According to the legend, 135 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: they have a mountain in West Virginia called the Big 136 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: Bend Mountain, and it's too large for them to go around, 137 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: so the only way out is through. They have to 138 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: blast blast the tunnel into something like one in a 139 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: fourth miles of solid rock one. 140 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: As you can imagine, this was dangerous work. This one 141 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: in particular, led it to a significant number of fatalities. 142 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: Nearly a thousand men died over the three years it 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: took to complete the project. John Henry, however, was resilient 144 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: af and survived all the while swinging a fourteen pound hammer. 145 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: He apparently could accomplish around ten to twelve feet of 146 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: pounding each day on his own. And and Ben I 147 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: was something was kind of ringing a bell, and I 148 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: was like, why am I thinking of Shaquille O'Neal uh here? 149 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 3: And it is because he played the character Steele in. 150 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: The movie version of the Marvel character Steele, whose name 151 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: as a civilian was John Henry. Steele not meant to 152 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: be John Henry himself, but inspired by I mean, he 153 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: was meant to be, like I believe, like a really 154 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: talented weapons smith and designer. 155 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: Oh that's crazy. I always thought that man. I always 156 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: thought Steele was a reference to d C comics. 157 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: It is DC. Okay, yeah, same character, but yeah, DC. 158 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: And And it's clearly like that's a great point because 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: it shows us how how brasilient this myth is even 160 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: in the modern day. So, according to the legend, on 161 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: to stage, as they're hammering through this fountain, strolls an 162 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: unidentified salesman and he's just like the guy I selling 163 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: monoails to Springfield from that legendary Simpsons episode. He's a 164 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: slick cat, his hair's pushed back, and he says, I've 165 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: got a solution. I've got an automated steam powered drill 166 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: that can outperform any living man. 167 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 3: Yikes. 168 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: Not good news for the steel driving men of the world. 169 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: This is quite controversial. So there is a. 170 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 3: Contest of sorts is organized. 171 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 2: John Henry being the top steel driver in the human race, 172 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: it would seem, at least in the region, was to 173 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: be pitted against this device. This this drill man versus machine. 174 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: The foreman would run the drill and John Henry, dual 175 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: wielding two twenty pound hammers, would try to compete with 176 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: it on his own and seeing who would come out 177 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: on top. 178 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, he tried to solo it, just like at a 179 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: video game. 180 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: Solo. 181 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you'll see that. His second, the Shaker, gets 182 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: increasingly ignored. In the legend, after thirty five minutes of 183 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: hand to steam drill competition, John Henry is victorious. He 184 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: has drilled two seven foot holes for a total of 185 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: fourteen feet. This new fangle drilled by contrast, only makes 186 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: one nine foot hole. And you know, like the subreddit, 187 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: everybody clapped, everybody cheers, they say, oh, John, you're the best. 188 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh khalu kalay, joyous day. And then 189 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: they realize that John himself has fallen down a blood 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: vessel burst in his brain. The hero of the rail 191 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: company has beaten the machine, but lost his life in 192 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: doing so well. 193 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: And it's, you know, it's it's a teachable moment on 194 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: both sides because on the one hand, yeah, did he 195 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: do a better job, Yes, but could he do it 196 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: that way forever like the machine? 197 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: No? Right, yeah, yeah, exactly, that's our parable And that's 198 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: just one version of the story. Obviously, depending on where 199 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: you hear it. Sometimes the hammers have a different weight. 200 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: I think in the ballad he is attributed a nine 201 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: pound hammer, but other times it's fourteen, or twelve or 202 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: even twenty. The issue is that the story changes over time. 203 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Other iterations come later, and they will claim John Henry 204 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: is not helping blow up these tunnels. Instead, he's one 205 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: of the guys who goes it, goes along the railway 206 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: lines and drives spikes. 207 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: Right. 208 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 3: That's why I'm a little confused. 209 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: I think that's sort of the version of the story 210 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: that I always heard, and I'm picturing John Henry, you know, 211 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: and driving those spikes along the railroad. 212 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: But there are multiple versions. 213 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,359 Speaker 2: In this particular version, his mechanical opponent is an automated 214 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: rail fastening machine. But at the end of the day, 215 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: the results and the you know, moral of the story, 216 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: I guess is the same. So whatever you want to 217 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: call it a legend, a myth, a bit of folklore, 218 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: it's it's persevered and continued to take on new meaning 219 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: in the face of you know, further automation, like picture, 220 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, the story of the Luddites, you know, throwing 221 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: printing presses off of cliffs and things like that. I mean, 222 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: we do have historical examples of human beings fighting back 223 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: against their mechanized replacements. 224 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's the thing. Humanity, as you're saying, has 225 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: always had a very complicated relationship with innovation, technology, automation, 226 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: and John Henry speaks to that or the story at least. 227 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: He's been the subject of novels. The United States Postal 228 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: Service put out a postage stamp in his order. He's 229 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: been in animated films like the Disney Wolde you mentioned 230 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: at the top, and some of the uh, some the 231 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: adaptations of the ballad we played to start this episode. 232 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: Above all, we have to remember that John Henry Has 233 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: a Song is the single most well known and most 234 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: often recorded folk song of all of Americana. And that nuts. 235 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: And it makes sense because it does kind of have 236 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: this dual meaning and that it, you know, tells the 237 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: tale of American perseverance and building the railroads and all 238 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: of that, But then it also tells the tale of 239 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: the cruelty of capitalism, you know, the kinds of things 240 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: American folk singer Woody Guthrie, whose guitar famously bore the 241 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: words this machine kills fascists. Yeah, I would have sung, 242 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: So it really does. It has that nostalgia quality, but 243 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: it also has that painful twist of, you know, the 244 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: lie of the American dream in many ways, or at 245 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: least the stilted truth of it. 246 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it always reminds me of a later band 247 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: rage against the machine, which encapsulates a lot of a 248 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: lot of the same lessons, the morals, the parables. So 249 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: we can all easily understand, especially in these troubled times, 250 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: why so many people identify with the heroic character of 251 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: John Henry here. But today's question is how much of 252 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: that story is true? And Noel max fell ridiculous historians, 253 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: as we found, when you search for the truth about 254 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: John Henry, things can quickly go off the rails. 255 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: Not apologizing they sure can, obviously, the stuff of folklore 256 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: typically evolves from a kernel of truth, from a real person, 257 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: from a real event, but then has a way of 258 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 2: kind of through that historical game of telephone, taking on 259 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: a life of itself, and as you said, Ben, even 260 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: creating multiple versions depending on the teller and the circumstances, 261 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: and can also evolve kind of with the times. 262 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely well said, we know it is true. We know 263 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: several things are true. It is true that railroad companies exist, 264 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: so you know, it was a railroad company that existed 265 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: at the time. It is true that they hired thousands 266 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: of dudes to smooth out the trade and to cut 267 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: through obstacles, including mountains and other protuberances that stood in 268 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: the way of their railroad tracks. It's also true that 269 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: steel drivers were a real thing and they did work 270 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: the way described in the legend. But when we get 271 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: to like to your point, Noel, when we get to 272 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: the actual John Henry, there's so much debate still in 273 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: the modern day. And it's crazy because we always mentioned 274 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: the game of telephone, right, The sheer popularity of this 275 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: folk tale makes the research difficult. And I got to 276 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: tell you guys, also, the fact that his name is 277 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: like John Henry instead of John wickenstatt Borough or something 278 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: makes it tougher because there are a lot of people 279 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: named John Henry or yeah, exactly right. So even if 280 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: he was a real single entity, even if we accept 281 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: that for the sake of conversation, folks still don't agree 282 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: on where or how everything went down. And this this 283 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: historical investigation dates way back, like in the nineteen twenties. 284 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: You can find people investigating this so. 285 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: Back in the nineteen twenties, a guy by the name 286 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: of Guy Benton Johnson, a sociologist. He did some digging 287 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: into the provenance of the John Henry myth legend folklore 288 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: and concluded that there was a John Henry that might 289 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 2: have worked for the railroads, specifically for the Chesapeake and 290 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: Ohio Railroad Company during that massive Big Bend Tunnel construction project. 291 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: The way he puts it is, one can make out 292 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: a case either four or against it. 293 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, let's do the case four. Perhaps start yeah. 294 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: But also he's kind of shrugging, right, he said, you 295 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: can say whatever you want. You could say John Henry 296 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: is definitely real, or you can say John Henry definitely 297 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: didn't do this. It's weird do He does do a 298 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: lot of like boots on the ground looking at this. 299 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: He says, all right, we know the tunnel really was built, 300 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: and it took from eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy two 301 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: to make it. And he says, I'm going to go 302 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to interview people in the area and see 303 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: if anybody has a first hand recollection or written proof 304 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: of what happens. And he finds a guy who swears 305 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: up and down that he knew the John Henry personal 306 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: or you could say another guy, another guy named John Henry. 307 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 308 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: And you know, to your point, Ben, it being something 309 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: of a common name, especially for the times, is it 310 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: does become harder and harder to you know, run down 311 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: the reality of the situation. 312 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 3: And here's how Johnson puts it. 313 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: So, this man known as Neil Miller told me in 314 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: plain words, how he had come to the tunnel with 315 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: his father at seventeen, how he carried water and drills 316 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: for the steel drivers. He was sort of a steel 317 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: drive and caddy of sorts. That's me, not Johnson. How 318 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: he saw John Henry every single day, and finally, all 319 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: about the contest between John Henry and the stem drill. 320 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: This seems promising, Ben. 321 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it seems it has specificity, right, and it 322 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: seems like the guy is sharing genuine memories. We know 323 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: our buddy. Neil Miller continues, and when he is talking 324 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: to this sociologist Johnson, he describes the legend of John 325 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: Henry pretty much beat for beat, and the only big 326 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: difference is that he says John Henry doesn't die immediately. 327 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: He carries on a little bit after the fact, and 328 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: then Miller also says, yeah, there was definitely a steam drill. 329 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: Let me describe what the steam drill looked like. So 330 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: he's talking to the sociologist who was essentially a folklorist 331 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: at this point, and our buddy Johnson is listening to him, 332 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: and he's writing down notes and dimensions, and so from 333 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: these he makes a sketch of what that steam drill 334 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: would have looked like. And he goes back and he 335 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: looks at photos of early steam drills that would have 336 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: been around at the time, and he says, Okay, this 337 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: looks legit. So as you said, Noel, it's promising until 338 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: there's another turn. 339 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: A bit of a twist not in the favor of 340 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: this tale. Sadly, Johnson contacted Sino Railroads themselves themselves, and 341 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 2: their chief engineer C. W. Johns stated with zero uncertainty 342 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 2: that no steam drills were used in the construction of 343 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: Big Bend. Unfortunately, John's wasn't able to provide a whole 344 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: lot more information. All the records from that period, he said, 345 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: burned up in a fire. 346 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: Convenient. 347 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: I was about to. 348 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: Say, but I would think that technology wise, if you 349 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: were like the historian for a company like that, you'd 350 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: probably have a decent sense of the kind of equipment 351 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: that was in play. 352 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point there, Noel, We know 353 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: that from Johnson's research in the late nineteen twenties. In 354 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: his estimation, we do have a John Henry, and this 355 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: John Henry is in West Virginia. But there are clearly 356 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: contradicting accounts of what went down, whether a steam drill 357 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: was in the middle, and there is no documentation to 358 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: prove it either way. They're just oral recollections. But there 359 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: are other opinions. We got a fast forward to two 360 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: thousand and six. This is some banger research by an 361 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: astorian named Scott Reynolds Nelson. 362 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: In his book Steel Driving Man John Henry, The Untold 363 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: Story of an American Legend, Reynolds Nelson argues that Henry 364 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: was in fact a real guy born in New Jersey 365 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: in eighteen forty eight. He found this information using a 366 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 2: different source than had previously been tapped, unanalyzed prison records 367 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: from the Virginia Penitentiary, and in that he found a 368 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: nineteen year old African American man with three different names 369 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 2: on paper, John Henry, John W. Henry, and John William Henry. 370 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: Now are these all the same guy or these three 371 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: different jobs? You know what I mean? This is a pickle. 372 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: At the time, we know that penitentiary inmates were often 373 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: hired out as laborers to various private companies. John Henry is, 374 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: according to Nelson's research, noted as having been part of 375 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: the first group of prisoners assigned railroad tunnel work. And 376 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: Nelson also looked at CNO's tunneling records, which is surprising 377 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: because he found stuff that apparently hadn't burned up in 378 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: a fire. 379 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 3: Ah okay, curious, sir, exactly. Ben. 380 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 2: So, with all of this newfound information, Nelson speculated that 381 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: his John Henry might well have come to Virginia in 382 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: order to help clean up battlefields after the Civil War, 383 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: then been arrested for burglary. And we should talk a 384 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: little bit about the black Codes. That could be an 385 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: episode unto itself in the brutally hypocritical way that these 386 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 2: freedmen were treated after already having gone through such horrific circumstances. 387 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: That's a maybe a conversation for another day. 388 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: Ben. 389 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: Then at that point he became potentially one of the 390 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: many convicts that were pushed into least labor for the 391 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: C and Oil Company, which I would argue, Ben, and 392 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 2: I think this is where you're heading as well. 393 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 3: Is so sort of almost a form of like indentured servitude, right. 394 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: One hundred percent, Yeah, this is definitely I agree. We've 395 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: got to make an episode about the Black Codes in 396 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: the future. Their primary aim was to put as many 397 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: newly freed African American people into the prison system as possible, 398 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: so all of the stuff you could be convicted of 399 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: carried cartoonishly overbearing fines and a lot of jail time. 400 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: And one of the silliest, most evil things about the 401 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: Black Codes were that in this area, at this time, 402 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 1: they've made it a crime for black people to seem 403 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: too cheerful about the end of slavery right now. 404 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: It's just absurd and not to mention I think, which 405 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: is appropriate in this conversation or relevant, they created these 406 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 2: forced year long labor contracts, and getting out of them, 407 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: or trying to get out of them earlier, meant that 408 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: you could not only have your wages garnished, but you 409 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: could potentially face arrest as well. Aggressively heavy handed implementation 410 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: of vagrancy laws like and then this is inherently racist 411 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: in and of itself, the idea of the idle black man 412 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: finding them for you know, being quote unquote shiftless and 413 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: layabouts whatever, right. 414 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: Illegal, not to have an employer, illegal to be happy, 415 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: all kinds of And. 416 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 3: This wasn't the same as Jim Crow. 417 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: But hand in hands, right, these things operated in concert. 418 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, yes, you nailed it right, Like a duck 419 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: verse is a goose. We're still talking birds. 420 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 2: So you actually, isn't it true that this is what 421 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: kind of more evolved into Jim Crow. I mean, they 422 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 2: are kind of part of the same thinking. 423 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: Yes, very much so, very much so the shadow of racism. 424 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: And according to Nelson, there is a a kind of 425 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: off to the side hero, or at least a well 426 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: intentioned person in this story. It's weirdly enough, the warden 427 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: of the prison in Virginia. This warden had been in 428 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: prison during the Civil War. He was a former ice salesman. 429 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: He just sold frozen water and he got in trouble 430 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: with Confederate forces for supporting the Union. And when he 431 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: became a warden, he looked around at the just horrific 432 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: conditions of this Virginia penitentiary. And he said, look, a 433 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: lot of these guys have been jammed up on very 434 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: small time charges, like you said, being happy loitery, right, 435 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: maybe taking a little bit of money. He says, if 436 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: we make them laborers for private contractors, maybe they will 437 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: have better living conditions, Maybe they will have better clothing, 438 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: maybe they will be fed on a more regular, more 439 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: healthy basis. GEK. Yeah, that part is largely lost to 440 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: history outside of Nelson's research. But like that nineteen twenties 441 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: sociologist before him, Nelson looked and looked and looked and 442 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: could find no hard evidence of a steam drill actually 443 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: being used in Big Bend. That takes him to another tunnel. 444 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: Aha, another tunnel. 445 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: He did find evidence that such a contest took place 446 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: forty miles away at the Lewis Tunnel between Talcott and 447 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: Millburg in Virginia. So we do know that there were 448 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: steam drills that were implemented in that project, and we 449 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: also know that there were prisoners who worked alongside them. 450 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we got to bust a little bit of 451 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: a myth about the steam drill from the John Henry story. 452 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: The steam drill in folklore is advertised as this unstoppable 453 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: amazing kind of evil, unrelenting thing. But the steam drills 454 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: that were in practice here, they were not perfect. They 455 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: threw up all kinds of dust, and they threw up 456 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: all kinds of particulates that would not just endanger the 457 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: people in the area, there were also the kind of 458 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: things that were small enough to screw up the machine itself. 459 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: So we keep running, and the more it ran, the 460 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: more likely it would be to get jammed up, and 461 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: so you'd have to have a team of humans to 462 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: come in either to fix it to clean it. 463 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: Right then, I think in somewhere here in terms of 464 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 2: the modern equivalent, you know this this willy nilly deployment 465 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: of machine learning, large language models to the point where 466 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: they're trying to use it to replace certain jobs. 467 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: But then they still require people. 468 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 2: To kind of check behind them and make sure they 469 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: don't blow up the world, you know, or hallucinate facts 470 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: when used for you know, writing articles and things like that, right, right, exactly, 471 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: almost more trouble than it's worth, because it's just it 472 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: isn't ready, right, It's not there yet. 473 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: Yes, sir our. Historian Nelson also says the verses of 474 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: the ballot about John Henry include him being buried near 475 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: quote the White House in the sand somewhere the locomotives roar. 476 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: That means that Henry's body, to Nelson's research, was buried 477 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: in a ditch, not behind Pennsylvania Avenue right, not behind 478 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: the Potus White House, but behind a part of the 479 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: Virginia State Penitentiary he called the White House. At the 480 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: time this was painted white, and later research we don't 481 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: want to get too dark here, found that there were 482 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: numerous on marched graves behind that area. 483 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: Which makes sense considering the dangerous conditions of this kind 484 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: of work and the low value of human labor that 485 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: was assigned by these railroad overlords. And Ben, I mean, 486 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: I think we've both been thinking this along the way, 487 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: and you probably have two ridiculous stories. Is that this, 488 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: like a lot of folkloric figures, seems like John Henry was. 489 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 3: He was a symbol. 490 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: We represented a lot of these these things that we're 491 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: talking about, the evils of the corruption and evils of 492 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: you know, unchecked industrialization. But he was less likely a 493 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: single person than he was like, you know, an amalgamation 494 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: of different people and kind of meant to be almost 495 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: like a symbol rather than a historical figure. 496 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the idea. I think we're all 497 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: we're all picking up here, especially because Nilson's research, which 498 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: we cannot praise enough, finds that the trail goes cold 499 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: for this alternately named John something Williams. The prison records 500 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: for John William Henry, they stop full stop in eighteen 501 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: seventy three. There's nothing saying he was released for time served. 502 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: There's nothing saying he died, but the fact that they 503 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: just stopped writing about him at that time. Given the 504 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: way of the US Tree of Black People, it probably 505 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: means he. 506 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: Died not necessarily from a brain aneurysm due to too 507 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 2: much pounding. 508 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: You're right, right, a braid agorism, due to too much bounding. 509 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: We're a family show, what a way to go? But 510 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: ul a way? You know. Yeah. 511 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: In the naughtier version of that scenario. 512 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: Yes, scenario yeah, Nelson instead believes that is Henry, the 513 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: one he has found, actually died of a terrible respiratory 514 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: condition called silicosis. 515 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 3: Oh oh boy. 516 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: Now this is relevant because we're talking about the kind 517 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: of thing that is caused by inhalation of gnarly materials 518 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: like rock dust and. 519 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: Debris one hundred percent, dude. Yeah, brought on by drills, 520 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: brought on by blasting, regardless of the of the tunnel 521 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: in which you're. 522 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: Work And I do have to take this as an 523 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: opportunity to say a thing that will always live with 524 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: me is the longest word I know. And I believe 525 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: this has also been referenced to the Futurama or the 526 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: Simpsons at the very least. Numono ultra microscopic silicon volcanic coniosis, 527 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: which is not what we're describing here, but it is 528 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: the version of it that you would get from working in. 529 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: A coal mine. 530 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: Nice? Is that a real word? 531 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: Sure? 532 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: Is mnumona ultra microscopic silica bocanoniosis? 533 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: Thank you. It reminds me of a Mary Poppins song. 534 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: It's got that cadence to it. That's beautiful. So now, folks, 535 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: as we're wrapping up, we have to realize. 536 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 3: It is the same thing. 537 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: It's it's inhalation of very fine silica or quartz dust. 538 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 2: So I guess, uh, the what was it silicosis? It's 539 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: just maybe a shorthand for something very similar, but that 540 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: that is the word. 541 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: Or that's a specific type perhaps, And at this point, 542 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: as we're wrapping up here, folks. Our question naturally moves 543 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: from who was the real John Henry? 544 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 3: Too? 545 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: Was there a real John Henry? A definitive answer maybe 546 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: lost the time because not all the historians agree. But 547 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: Nelson's work is awesome. Do check out his book, and 548 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: we know most importantly, the legend isn't going away anytime soon. 549 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: The story of John Henry has been with our nation 550 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: through countless labor movements, power to the people, through the 551 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: struggle for civil rights, and now of course returns anew 552 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: revivified and the great debate about AI and automation. 553 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 3: Really really great work on this brief as well. Ben. 554 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 3: We're gonna come back soon with another. 555 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: Food history story about soft served ice cream for the summer. 556 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 2: But in the meantime, huge thanks to you again, Ben 557 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: for the research on this one. Huge thanks to Jonathan's 558 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 2: strickland Is the Quister and A. Jbahamas Jacobs the Pustler. 559 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: Yes, big, big thanks to doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance, 560 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: as well as the Rude Dude's a ridiculous crime. If 561 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: you love us, you will dig them, hopefully not like 562 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: a railway tunnel. We also have to say big, big 563 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: thanks to our super producer Max, the Free Trade, Williams, 564 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: and Noel this is this is a fun one man. 565 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying our time together exploring larger than life 566 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: figures of American folklore. 567 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 3: So thank you, ah man, You're welcome, and thanks to you. 568 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, folks. 569 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 570 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.