1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: This is one of those cases that will always interest people. 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: You want to be able to keep looking for new 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: clues and new windows into these stories. 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War Wicked and the co host 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: behind the stories. I love nineteen twenties Hollywood. It was 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: full of glitz, glamour, controversy, and murder. William Mann's wonderful 17 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: book Tinseltown, Murder, Morphine and Madness at the Dawn of 18 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: Hollywood details the story of the mysterious unsolved murder of 19 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: film director William Desmond Taylor. Did man solve Taylor's murder 20 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: one hundred years later. Maybe, so this is nineteen twenty 21 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: two Los Angeles set the scene for me, crime, politics, mobsters, 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: what's happening between the Christian right and Hollywood at the 23 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: time period. Everybody is side eyeing everyone else. It's very 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: tension filled. 25 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty two, 26 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: this was the critical period in the development of the 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: Hollywood studio system. So the movies were still only about 28 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: ten years old, and yet they had become suddenly in 29 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: the past decade, this huge money making enterprise. And everyone involved, 30 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: all of the big weeks in the movie industry, the 31 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: studio directors, the producers, the directors, the actors. They had 32 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: all come from nothing. They were immigrants who had come 33 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: here without any you know, without any money in their pockets. 34 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: They had been chauffeurs and showgirls, and suddenly they were 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: making more money than they ever dreamed of. So it 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: seemed as if the good times would never end. And 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: then these scandals began to happen. And this was a 38 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: period of time where suddenly the stakes were so high 39 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: and everybody understood that because the right wing had been 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: complaining about movies since their inception, saying that they were 41 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: destroying the morals of the youth. They were giving a 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: wrong impression about what marriage and family meant. You know, 43 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: in these early movies, women had a tremendous amount of agency, 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: and women were making movies and they were directing movies. 45 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: And this was a period of time where there was 46 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 2: a lot of social change going on in the world 47 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: and it made people nervous. After the war, After World 48 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: War One, which was about the time the movies really 49 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: took off as a big business, there was this clash 50 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: in the country between traditional ways, religious ways, and a 51 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: more secular understanding of the world. You know, Fitzgerald's comment was, 52 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: you know, after the war, a generation found all gods 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: were dead and faiths and man shaken. So there was 54 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: a whole new world out there. This was a period 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: of time two also where women get the right to vote. 56 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: Society was changing and it made a lot of people nervous, 57 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: and the movies were reflecting that change. So we saw 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: a lot of attempts to censor movies, to get movie 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: houses closed. In some cases, people who had brought about 60 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: prohibition now turn their attention to the movie houses. So 61 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: there was a considerable amount of tension around this suddenly big, huge, 62 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: important moneymaker industry, and it was going to spill over 63 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: into the larger culture as well. 64 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: Where does William Desmond Taylor fit into this whole picture 65 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty two. 66 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: Well, by nineteen twenty two, William Desmond Taylor, who had 67 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: started out as an actor, was one of the most 68 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: important men in the business. He was a director for 69 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 2: Famous Players Alaski, which was at the biggest movie studio 70 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: in Hollywood and indeed the world. Within a few years 71 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: it would become Paramount. So we understand that this is 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: an organization that's still going, you know, that has been 73 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: powerful for a very long time. And he was tapped 74 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: by Adolph Sukor, who was the head of Paramount and 75 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: the founder of Paramount, to in sense, be the defender 76 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: of the industry. He was the one who was always 77 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: sent out to speak against sense, against criticism, saying that 78 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: you know, if we show destitution or vice in the films, 79 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: it's not an attempt to sensationalize, but to show the 80 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 2: problems of society. So you know, they took a grand 81 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: tone to justify their money making movies about sex. But 82 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: Taylor was the perfect person to do that. He was articulate, 83 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: he had a very cultured Irish rogue, he was handsome, 84 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: he was tall, and there was no scandal around his name. 85 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: He was seen as upstanding. The industry leaned on him, 86 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: depended on him to defend the industry and as well 87 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: as he made very successful movies Tom Sawyer a series 88 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: of films with Mary Miles Minter, so he was riding 89 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: high in nineteen twenty two. 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: My second book, American Sherlock, features that forensic scientist who 91 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: did not work on this case, but he was the 92 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: central character of the Fatty Arbuckle case. And for people 93 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: who don't know, and Fatty Arbuckle in nineteen twenty one 94 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: is an actor who's caught in a scandal because a 95 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: woman who was an actress went to one of his 96 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: parties at the Saint Francis Hotel and ends up dying 97 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: and he goes on trial for manslaughter. But really the 98 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: characters come out in that trial, right. You've got showgirls 99 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: who are flipping their stories around, You've got people who 100 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: really are framed as leezy Hollywood types. Does William Desmond 101 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: Taylor fit into that world? Is he hanging out with 102 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: all the showgirls. What's his reputation like in Hollywood? 103 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: Oh, he couldn't be farther away from that world. Okay, 104 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: he liked our buckle. He did like our buckle. They 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: had a great deal of respect for each other. But 106 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: Taylor was known as a guy who went home after 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: shooting the pictures and read books until the early evening 108 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: and went to bed early. He was not somebody who 109 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: was a part of that world. His best friend was 110 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: Mabel Normand, who was a part of that world. Occasionally 111 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: Mabel would drag him out to the Coconut grove to 112 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 2: go dancing. But for the most part he was seen 113 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: as very proper, very distinguished. You know, he had his cellar, 114 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: you know his prohibition, but he did have his cellar 115 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: was filled with bootleg liquor. But he wasn't known as 116 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: a party person. He would not have been at a 117 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: party like that. 118 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: So no real active social life, love life, at least 119 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: in that. 120 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: Way, well not publicly. Taylor did have his secrets, and 121 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: I like to say one of the things that makes 122 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: this story so interesting is that the subcurrent to it 123 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: is that that everybody had secrets, and those secrets would 124 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: either kill you or save You, and Taylor came to 125 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: Hollywood with some pretty big secrets. He had abandoned his 126 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: wife and daughter. He had been working in retail in 127 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: New York City and was bored, bored with his life, unhappy, 128 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: so he joined a traveling acting company and a band 129 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: in his family and had done so for about five 130 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: years now living on his own, and now he's in 131 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: Hollywood having made it big, and still hadn't reached out 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: to his wife and daughter. So he had this secret 133 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: he was carrying around. And part of the reason that 134 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: I believed that he left his wife and also that 135 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: he kept a very low profile in Hollywood, is I 136 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: believe he was gay. He was almost certainly having a 137 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: relationship with his set decorator, George Hopkins. Hopkins later wrote 138 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 2: about this in some clarity and some detail in his 139 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: unpublished memoir, and that would explain why Taylor wasn't down 140 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: there partying with the rest of them. But he kind of, 141 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: you know, stayed at home with some close friends, and 142 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 2: that too, was a secret that he guarded very carefully. 143 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: He was one of the most profitable film directors in 144 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: Hollywood at the time, the only other one at Paramount 145 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: who was more successful than he was, was Cecil B 146 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: de Mill. 147 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: So tell me about the scene where we are located 148 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: when all of this happens in Los Angeles on February first, 149 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two. 150 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: Taylor lived in a bungalow complex on Alvarado Court, which 151 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: is right off of Alvarado Street. It was a courtyard 152 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: with several other actors. Edna Purvyance lived there. She was, 153 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 2: of course Charlie Chaplin's leading lady. Douglas McLain, who was 154 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: a very popular actor also at Famous Players Laski lived there. 155 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: So it was a group of movie people technicians who 156 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 2: also lived there. It was very genteel. There wasn't a 157 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: lot of parties. It was at that time. It was 158 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: a very upscale neighborhood in Los Angeles, and he would 159 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: entertain a few friends occasionally, Mabel Norman often. In fact, 160 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: she was there the night he died. She was the 161 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: last person to see him alive. But mostly, as I said, 162 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: he would be found home sitting there reading books until 163 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: late at night. 164 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: And is that where all of the starts is that night? 165 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: Yes, what actually happened? There's lots of speculation, but I 166 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: should probably say what we know and what we know 167 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: is is that on the morning of February second, it 168 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: was a very cold morning, and unusually cold morning. There 169 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: was frost on the grass. And Henry Peavee, who had 170 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: mentioned as Taylor's valet, he arrived as usual at seven 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: point thirty to start work, and he noticed as he 172 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: was coming up the path that the lights were still 173 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: on because the sun was just rising, so he could 174 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 2: see that all the lights in the house were still on, 175 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: which was very unusual. And then as he got closer, 176 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: he saw that the door was ajar it was not 177 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: pulled tight, which immediately set off alarms in PV's mind, 178 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: and when he opened the door, he saw Taylor stretched 179 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: out on the living room floor, clearly dead. Peev, who 180 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: was could be a bit excitable, began to scream and 181 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: run through the courtyard and waking everybody up, and the 182 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: neighbors came over and went inside determined that the Taylor 183 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: was dead, and at this point everyone thought he died 184 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: of natural causes because there was no sign of foul play. 185 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: He was just laying there fully dressed, and they felt, well, 186 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: he must have had a heart attack or some other 187 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: kind of seizure, and they said, well, we need to 188 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: call the cops. And Peeve, who had by this point 189 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: had kind of gotten his senses, he said, oh no, 190 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: mister Taylor always said that if anything ever happened, you 191 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: don't call the cops, you call the studio. And because 192 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: of what we were talking about earlier, the stakes that 193 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: were so high for the studios, even if somebody died 194 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: of natural causes, before you let the press in, you 195 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: had to make sure there was nothing in there in 196 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: their belongings that I might embarrass the studio. So overcomes 197 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: George Hopkins, who was most likely Taylor's companion romantic companion, 198 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: and other people from the studio, and they went through 199 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: Taylor's bungalow and carried off boxes and check books and 200 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: diaries and everything they could find. So by that point 201 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: it was okay to let the coroner in. And the 202 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: coroner comes in and says, well, it looks like natural causes, 203 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 2: but you know, we should turn the body over. And 204 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: the studio director, who was there, a man named Charles Ititen, 205 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: said no, no, no, we don't need to turn a 206 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: body over. Let's just get him to the morgue. And 207 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: the coroner insisted, and they turned him over and sure 208 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: enough he was lying in a pool of blood and 209 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: there was a bullet lodged in his neck. So now 210 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: it's it's murder. And by this time the reporters are 211 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: all outside, you know. And it's so interesting when I 212 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: researched this period, unlike today, the reporters had access to 213 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: crime scenes. They just walked in, you know, and they 214 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: went through things on their own, and the police and 215 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: everyone expected that. So there were reporters in there when 216 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: the blood was found, and so containing this was no 217 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: longer possible. 218 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: Are they finding upon investigation that there are signs of 219 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: a break in? Do they think immediately this is some 220 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: sort of home invasion. 221 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: No, there's no sign of a break in. The back 222 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: door is still locked from the inside. So whoever came 223 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: in came in through the front door, which was unlocked, 224 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: and there was the place was not in shambles. The 225 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: only thing that seemed out of place was there was 226 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: a chair that was kind of a thwart tailor's leg. 227 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: But other than that, the room was neat. He had 228 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: his wristwatch, he had had some he had a ring 229 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: that was not stolen. However, he did have a roll 230 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: of cash was probably about five hundred dollars or more 231 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: and that was gone. But if the killer was there 232 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: to rob him, police immediately said, you know, well then 233 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: why not take the ring, when I take the wristwatch? 234 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: Why not go through the desks because there were other 235 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: valuables there. So robbery even from the start was not 236 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 2: seen as a motive. 237 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: Are they dusting for fingerprints because we know that that 238 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: was available, I know from Fatty Arbuckle that was very 239 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: available in that time period. 240 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: They certainly did. They certainly did. But you know, as 241 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: I mentioned, by this point, by the time the cops 242 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: actually did that, there were so many fingerprints across that 243 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: There were the neighbor's fingerprints, there were the reporter's fingerprints, 244 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: there were the cops fingerprints. It turned out to be useless. 245 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: So is there a reaction from George Hopkins, who you 246 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: believe was his partner in some way, or at least 247 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: a romantic partner. Is there an emotional reaction or anything 248 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: public happening? 249 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: I wish we knew, I mean, because that's one of 250 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: the great stories that you have to wonder about. In 251 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: his memoir he did write how difficult it was for 252 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: him to stand there and look down at this body 253 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: of this man that he had loved, and not to 254 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: be able to acknowledge it, not to be able to say, 255 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: this man wasn't just my boss. Mabel Norman, however, who 256 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: was Taylor's good friend and clearly knew about George, she did. 257 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: At the funeral, George was sitting alone and Mabel did 258 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: a gesture for him to come sit with her. So 259 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: I think, you know, just those little bit details you 260 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: begin to say perhaps there was some understanding what he 261 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: might have been going through. 262 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: So at this point, the studio has to admit that 263 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: this is a murder, and they have no suspects, and 264 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: there's no sign of a break in. It doesn't look random. 265 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: The easy things to get which any robber would know 266 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: what to do or have been left on the table 267 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: except for some money. And the police say we have 268 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: to investigate this. What is the dynamic between the police 269 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: and their investigation and Zucker and these people who are 270 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: the power players in Hollywood who have a lot to 271 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: lose by this. 272 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they have a tremendous amount to lose. At 273 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: the very day that Taylor's murder is announced on the 274 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: front page of the Los Angeles papers, it's sharing headlines 275 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: with the Arbuckle case, which the jury is just you know, 276 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: deadlocked for the second time. So at this point you 277 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: see it in Zuker's action. Zuker's on a train. He's 278 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: a peace based in New York. He's on a train 279 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: out to Los Angeles. Almost immediately, this is crisis mode. 280 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: This is really immediately the reformers, people like the Lord's 281 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: Day Alliance, they're jumping all over saying, look, we need to, 282 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: we need we need to you know, censor these this place. 283 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: And they're finding allies with the federal government because the 284 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: federal government had already been looking to regulate the new 285 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: movies as violating antitrust laws. Paramount lows were buying up the theaters, 286 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: and there were calls for regulation and government regulation of 287 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: the movie industry. And so they find allies with the 288 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: right wing religious and civics groups saying, yeah, let's regulate 289 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: them for that, but also for their morality. So this 290 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: is a moment where people like it Old Zukor and 291 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: the others realized that all of this fortune that they 292 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: had built up might come crashing down. So there's a 293 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: lot of pressure from the studios on the police not 294 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: to pursue this. Sometimes the police cooperate, other times they don't. 295 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: I mean, the police in the tailor case sometimes get 296 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: a bad wrap. I think they did the best they could, 297 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: but the studio had gotten in there and taken away 298 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: anything that might have given them a true lead on 299 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: who might have done this. 300 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: So they start to investigate, and I think, you know, 301 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: even police in the nineteen twenties would start to think, Okay, 302 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: well we need to start with his inner circle, right, 303 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: and they start investigating. Who do they start with? Are 304 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: we starting with Mabel? Is that who we go with 305 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: his closest friend besides George? 306 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, Mabel is the first suspect. She was there 307 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: the night before investigators started asking around. There had been 308 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: a quarrel between Mabel and Taylor that several people had witnessed, 309 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: So why was she there that night? Henry Peavey had 310 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: seen them quarreling before he left that for the night, 311 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: so when he left, he had seen Mabel and Taylor quarreling, 312 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 2: so he was very suspicious of Mabel. However, Mabel was 313 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: quickly determined not to be a suspect. They did check 314 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: her out. They searched her apartment. They found that her 315 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: gun didn't match the bullet that had killed Taylor, but 316 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: she remained, you know, a person of interest for other reasons. 317 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: She had you know, everyone knew that she had recently 318 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: gotten sober, she had gone to rehab, Taylor had helped 319 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: pay for it for her, She had kicked the drug habit. 320 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: You know, she had this pretty elaborate drug land connection 321 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: that had infiltrated this movie studios, and Taylor had been 322 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: working actually with the US attorney to ferret them out, 323 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: to try to find these drug dealers and to get 324 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: them out in the studio. So there was some thought 325 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: within the LAPD that maybe, in fact, one of Mabel's 326 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: drug contacts had killed Taylor as a sort of revenge 327 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: or something. So Mabel, even though she was very quickly 328 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: eliminated as a suspect, remained in the shadow of the 329 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: investigation really for the next several years. 330 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: Did they look at this and think based on interactions 331 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: with gangsters, you know, knowing what they know about the 332 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: level of professional hitman, did they think that this looked 333 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: like a professional hit or a crime of passion? How 334 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: are they categorizing this murder? 335 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: Do you know some of the speculation was being done 336 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: by the hearst newspapers. Of course, this is what we think, 337 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 2: did it? You know, the police right from the beginning 338 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 2: did not feel this was a mob hit because it 339 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: didn't bury into the signs of that. It did seem 340 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: like a crime of passion. Even the trajectory of the 341 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: bullet through Taylor's body was interesting because it was fired 342 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: into his lower right side and it traveled up through 343 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: his body and got lodged in his neck, right behind 344 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,959 Speaker 2: his ear. So this is a very unusual trajectory for 345 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: a bullet to go through a body. How would that 346 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: have happened if it was, you know, a mob hit, 347 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 2: which usually is pretty straightforward. It did seem like a 348 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 2: crime of passion. Interestingly, all of the women in Taylor's life, 349 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: Mabel is most frequent meeting, Lady Mary, Miles, Minter, were 350 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 2: all about five foot two, So you know, it's conceivable 351 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: to someone embracing Taylor, who was much shorter than he 352 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: was he was six feet putting a gun in his side. 353 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 2: That gun might have gone up to his neck. So 354 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: it was pretty early unseen as most likely a crime 355 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: of passion. 356 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: What is the caliber of gun? What kind of weapon 357 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: are we talking about? Is this a lady's handgun that 358 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: can be concealed very easily. 359 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: No, it was a thirty eight, an old model thirty eight, 360 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: which is actually I think a significant detail has helped 361 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: me when I came up with some possible solutions that 362 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: it was an old model thirty eight and the bullets 363 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: were soft nosed, and there was the ammunition was also old. 364 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 2: It was not like the current the most current ammunition 365 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: at the time. I'm not a gun expert, but I 366 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: know that the police said, is there aren't a lot 367 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: of these guns around? Is what they said. 368 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: Is it associated with the military or the police, or 369 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: would this be somebody's father who had it years ago? 370 00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: And it was taken out of. 371 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 2: The It was used in the Spanish American War. 372 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: So they have looked at Mabel and said she's got 373 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: some connections to the underworld, but we're going to let 374 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: it go for now. Who was the next person they 375 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: focus on. 376 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: The next one was Taylor's former valet, but a man 377 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: by the name of Edward Sands. He had preceded Henry 378 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 2: Peavey in the position, and Sans was a very good 379 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: suspect and I think he still is a good suspect. 380 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: He was working under an assumed name. He was using 381 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: a fake Cockney accent. He was actually from Ohio. 382 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: Wait, what right? Why did he do that? He just 383 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: thought he'd get a job more easily if he's sounded English. 384 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, like yeah, valets are supposed to be English. 385 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: I guess there you go. 386 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: Well, he was always changing his name, always going around 387 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: the country getting different jobs because he was always being fired, 388 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: or when he was in the military he was in 389 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: World War One, he was always being court martialed. So 390 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: he had a lot of aliases throughout his career. And 391 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: when he Taylor's employee, was while Taylor was away actually 392 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 2: in New York making up with his wife and daughter. 393 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: During that time, Sans took Taylor's car, smashed it up, 394 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: drank all his liquor, and then stole jewelry and some clothing. 395 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: So Sand seemed like a really good suspect, especially because 396 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: it seemed as if in Taylor's last month he was 397 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: being blackmailed. And Sand seemed like a good suspect because 398 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: he actually knew that Taylor was not his employer's real 399 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: last name. His real last name was Tanner. He was 400 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: known as William Dean Tanner. Sans had discovered this, and 401 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: so the blackmail notes that came to Taylor were addressed 402 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: to William Dean Tanner. So if this was in fact 403 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: San's doing this, he seems like a possible suspect, though 404 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: it was never clear what his motive would be to 405 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: kill him, unless it was somehow again a crime of passion, 406 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: like give me some more money, I refuse, and he 407 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: just shot him. 408 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: But if you look at it, seems like sands whole 409 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: motive throughout all of it is money, right, Why not 410 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: just take the jewelry? Why not take the two or 411 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: three extra steps? To me, doesn't make any sense. If 412 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: this guy his whole motivation is money, right, and the 413 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: trajectory is weird. It is weird. Maybe he would be 414 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: on the ground and shooting up in self defense if 415 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: there's an argument or m I don't know, Yeah. 416 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: It could be. And he was shorter. I think he 417 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 2: was only about five six. But he was a good suspect, 418 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: but he didn't clinch it. 419 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: Who's after him? Who's after Sands? 420 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: Well, then come the most popular suspects, which would be 421 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: Mary Miles Minter and her mother, Charlotte Shelby. Now Mary 422 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: Miles Mintor was Taylor's leading lady in a number of 423 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: very successful films. She had started as a star on 424 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 2: the Broadway stage when she was about eleven and her 425 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: mother was passing her office sixteen. You know, you look 426 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: at her story now, especially through modernized and you realize 427 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: how sexualized she was as such a young girl and 428 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 2: the lasting damage that that did to her. She was 429 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 2: always living in a sort of a fantasy world, and 430 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: even as a movie star, she became very well known 431 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: as being this sexy, kind of dangerous, maybe two young 432 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: girl who was paired with much older men. Mary Miles 433 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: Mintor was a popular suspect because the newspapers were really 434 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 2: they were pushing this story along. The story stayed alive 435 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: in the public imagination because of the fact that every 436 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: day the Examiner and the Herald Express came out with 437 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: huge headlines with latest clue in Taylor killing. And what 438 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: better clue could there be than if it a all 439 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: a sexy young woman, and so people thought, well, perhaps 440 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: Mary did it, but why would Mary have done it? 441 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 2: It became clear, it became revealed, and this is fact 442 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: that Mary was in love with Taylor, absolutely smitten, and 443 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: she was convinced that Taylor loved her too, because Taylor 444 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: was very kind, He was very gracious to her, He 445 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: didn't dismiss her the way some people did. She was 446 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: convinced that he loved her, even though he said things 447 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: to her like Mary, I am December and you are May. 448 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: You know, there could be nothing between us. But Mary 449 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: still had this dream, and it infuriated her mother, Charlotte Shelby, 450 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: that Mary would be so dependent on this man, when, 451 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: of course, Charlotte had been the one to control Mary's 452 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: career ever since Mary was a little girl, and she 453 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: didn't like other people coming in and putting other ideas 454 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: into her daughter's head. So Charlotte was always very antagonistic 455 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: towards Taylor, and in fact, at one point on the set, 456 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: in front of witnesses, had threatened to kill him. She said, 457 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 2: if you ever come near my daughter, I will kill you. 458 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: She had a gun. People knew that she knew she 459 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: had a gun. So Charlotte becomes perhaps the most popular suspect. 460 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: Mary was a suspect to an extent. You know, she 461 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: was short enough that if Taylor had her an embrace, 462 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 2: you know, she could put the gun against his side, 463 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: and that trajectory would make a lot of sense, and 464 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 2: it does appear, at least from George hopkins memoir that 465 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: Mary discovered that there may have been some kind of 466 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: a relationship with Hopkins. She saw them at the opera 467 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: and seemed to be very upset. But it was Charlotte 468 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: who the lead detective on the case at King he 469 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: was convinced that it was Charlotte Shelby. I think for 470 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: a number of reasons. One, the district attorney at the time, 471 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: Thomas Woolwine, was friends with Charlotte, and I believe that 472 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: Woolwine knew that Charlotte was not guilty, but he knew 473 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: that in some cases she was going to made to 474 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: look guilty, so he discouraged his investigators from pursuing that line, 475 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: and in doing so, that made a lot of the 476 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: investigators suspicious. Why is the DA telling us not to 477 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: look into Charlotte Shelby. But the other reason I think 478 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: that Charlotte became such the popular suspect everyone in Hollywood 479 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 2: started to say, well, you know, she must have done 480 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: it is because she was a powerful woman in Hollywood 481 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: when they didn't really accept powerful women in Hollywood. People 482 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: have called her a monster for doing things that Adolf 483 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 2: zook Or did all the time, and they called him 484 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: ambitious or smart or crafty, they told they called Charlotte 485 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: you know every other name under the book. Charlotte could 486 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: have been a very powerful producer in Hollywood. She knew 487 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: how to make movies, you know, how to sell movies. 488 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 2: She was never given that opportunity because she was a woman. 489 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 2: And so I believe that in many ways, her reputation 490 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 2: in town as a woman who took no crap from anyone, 491 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 2: who actually went head to head with Zuker at one 492 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 2: point and demanded that Mary get a million dollars contract, 493 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 2: and Super said, I've never paid a million dollar contract. 494 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: And she said, well then you won't get married. And 495 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: she won. Charlotte won. So actually, I have a lot 496 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 2: of respect for Charlotte Shelby, even though she was probably 497 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: hell to work with. But some were most of the 498 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: men in Hollywood at the time, but they don't get 499 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: these reputations. Yeah, So I think that's one of the 500 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: reasons Charlotte became such a popular suspect. 501 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: Knowing that she had such an acerbic personality or sertive 502 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: personality and made people uncomfortable, and she carried a gun 503 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: do you think that William Desmond Taylor would have let 504 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: her into his house if there are no signs of 505 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: a break in, or is there any way she could 506 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: have accessed the house without him a key or anything. 507 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: Well, we do have a story that was reported to 508 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: investigators that at one point she did go to Taylor's 509 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: house and she did knock on his door. She did 510 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 2: have a gun with her. She admitted having a gun 511 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: with her. She didn't know where Mary was, and she 512 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 2: assumed that she was at Taylor's house and Taylor did 513 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: invite her in and he said, you can see she's 514 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: not here. Charlotte left because she was frustrated not finding Mary. 515 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: So I do believe he would have invited her in. 516 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: My question always with Charlotte Shelby is what would she 517 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: gain from killing Taylor. She was a woman who if 518 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: she didn't like the way things were going, she had 519 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: other ways of dealing with you. She would have gone 520 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: to the top. She would have gone to Zuker and 521 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: said what's going on with Taylor. I can't believe that 522 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: simply a fear that he was somehow going to steal 523 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: Mary away from her would prompt her into killing him, 524 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: even if she did in a moment of passion. She 525 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: had to know that it would destroy everything she had 526 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: worked so hard to create. You know, if that were discovered, 527 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: you know Mary's career would be ruined. Charlotte would be 528 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: in jail. You know, she became a popular suspect, and 529 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: for a very long time many people assumed that it 530 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: was Charlotte Shelby. I just don't think her personality allows 531 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: for it. She wasn't an impulsive person. She was very calculating, 532 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 2: and to think that she kind of went over in 533 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: a mad rage and shot Taylor dead just never convinced me. 534 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: Is there no other forensic evidence in this case? There's 535 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: no hair, there's nothing left behind, I mean anything that 536 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: could have been tested, because there were some resources in 537 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two forensically that could have been used. 538 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: Yes, there were. There was several strands of hair on 539 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: the suit in which he was killed. They were never 540 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: tested for whatever reason, until one of the newspaper reporters 541 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: figured out, well, we can get copies of that hair, 542 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: maybe we can find out ourselves. And so there was 543 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: a surreptitious investigation which was carried out by I think 544 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: a newsboy who has paid a few extra dollars to 545 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: go in and get hairs from Mary's hair brush, in 546 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: which then detective ed King compared to the hairs that 547 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: were on the suit, and he claimed that they were 548 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: the same. And so if Mary's hairs were on the 549 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: lapel of his jacket, what does that mean. I still 550 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: not sure what that proved. Because Mary did go to 551 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: see Taylor the day before he died. She was distraw 552 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 2: he hugged her. He hugged her, So what does that prove? 553 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: But of course, somehow those hairs seemed to indict Charlotte 554 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: Shelby even more, which makes no sense. 555 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: You know, they knew so little in some ways, because 556 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: this is the wild West of forensics, this time period 557 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: that we're talking about, right, they knew so little. You know, 558 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: when Oscar Heinrich got on the stand to talk about 559 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: Fatty Arbuckle and the would be victim in this case, 560 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: he said, see the hand prints, you can tell it's 561 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: a man on top of a woman. This is the 562 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: signs of a struggle, which is such right, yes, is 563 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: so imperfect. And to then take a little bit of 564 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: forensic information and say here is a narrative that goes 565 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: with it was believable in the nineteen twenties, and we 566 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: can't do that now now we know. But you can 567 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: see that little bit of information which I think they 568 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: would have only been able to determine the race of 569 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: the person that was it. There was no I don't 570 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: even know if they could tell the difference between male 571 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: and female from what I remember in the nineteen twenties. 572 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: No, I think you're right, I mean, and I think 573 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: that's why so much of this case, even from the 574 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: very start, was all based on circumstantial evidence. And so 575 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: what we're left with, and what I was left with 576 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: in trying to make some sense of this, was to say, Okay, 577 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: using this evidence, whether it's circumstantial or not, how much 578 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: of it is easily disproven, how much of it contradicts itself, 579 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: so we can eliminate it. And in fact, I think 580 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: one of the things that I think is often overlooked 581 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: or not considered all that important was there was one 582 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: eyewitness to the killer that was Taylor's next door neighbor, 583 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: Faith McLean. She was the wife of the actor Douglas McLain, 584 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: and she remembers on the night of the shooting that 585 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: she heard what she thought was a car backfire, and 586 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: she looked out her front door window and directly across 587 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 2: from her bungalow was Taylor's and she saw a man 588 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: come out of Taylor's apartment. So this is immediately after 589 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: the gunshot a man a man, and she said the 590 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: man walked out of the apartment. She said he was 591 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: wearing a hat pulled down over his face a little bit, 592 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: so she couldn't get a clear views of his face, 593 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: but she said he had a rather prominent nose. He 594 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: looked like somebody they would call from Central Casting to 595 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 2: play like a gangster. And she said he kind of 596 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: nodded as he passed her, so he wasn't like he 597 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: was rushing away. He kind of nodded. And then they 598 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: said how tall was he? And she kind of and 599 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: it turned out that she was saying he was about 600 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: five six or five seven. As I said, Charlotte Shelby 601 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: was five foot one. And this man was also heavy, 602 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: he was stocky. If this was Charlotte Shelby, she would 603 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: have had to put out a nose prosthetic. She would 604 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: have had be walking on stilts and wearing padded clothes 605 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: to disguise herself as a man. Because even with that evidence. 606 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: Even with that evidence, people still said, oh, well, it 607 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: was simply a man a woman dressed as a man. 608 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: I don't know where they get that from, but because 609 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: it makes literally it's very impractical when you think about that. 610 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: Does this man fit the description of Edward Sands that 611 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about. 612 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: In some ways? He did? And which why it makes 613 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: this interesting because it was noted that he was about 614 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: the same height as Edward Sands. The problem with that 615 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: is is that even though he was in the dark, 616 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: you couldn't see him that well. Faith McLean had seen 617 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: Edward Sands for more than a year, every single day 618 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: coming out of that same door, and she said it 619 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: was not him, okay, And they said, well are you sure? 620 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: She well, you know, how sure can I be? 621 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: Okay? So we have this list of suspects and who 622 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: are the police? We know the media really likes Charlotte Shelby, 623 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, who goes there in a fit of passion, 624 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: arguing over her young daughter and shoots him and then 625 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: goes because that's part of her personality and everybody fears her. 626 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: Who do the police think is really involved here? 627 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: It was divided. Many of the investigators did not give 628 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 2: up on Sands. They believed Sans must have been involved, 629 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: just because he was that kind of a character. Fairly 630 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 2: early in the investigation, a body is found in Massachusetts 631 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 2: that is identified as Sands, but never one hundred percent confirmation, 632 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: and I think the newspapers pushed that this really was 633 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 2: Sands so that they could continue the Charlotte Shelby marathon, 634 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: whereas many of the police weren't one hundred percent convinced 635 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 2: with that. But an awful lot of the cops did 636 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: believe it was Charlotte, And I think what sense did 637 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: for them was the fact that will Wind kept saying 638 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: lay off of Charlotte Shelby. There are stories that will 639 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: Whine or Charlotte Shelby were having an affair. That's possible, 640 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: you know, they were friends, but the fact that he 641 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: kept saying lay off them, I think really did motivate 642 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 2: a lot of the investigators. 643 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: Well, let me go through the list real quick, because 644 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: I think you can add to it. 645 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: Right. 646 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: So we have Mabel Normand, who is the woman who 647 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: was in recovery his really good friend. They had argued 648 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: Charlotte Shelby because of her daughter, Mary Milesminter, who was 649 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: a teenager who was in love with William Desmond Taylor. 650 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: And then you've got Edward Sands, who was an assistant 651 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: to him of Latte as you had mentioned. And I 652 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: keep throwing, George Hopkins, I'm gonna let it go because 653 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: I know you're convinced this is not I just kept thinking, 654 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's if you're really looking at a 655 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: crime of passion, you know, and this is a secret affair. 656 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: This just seems like a no brainer. And they're in 657 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: the studio system together. But it doesn't sound like that 658 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: lines up with what you found. Is there anyone else? 659 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: I think there might be one or two other people 660 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm missing. 661 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: There are a couple of other minor figures who came through. 662 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 2: There was one that Taylor had served in World War One. 663 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 2: He was a British citizen, so he served with the 664 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,479 Speaker 2: Canadian Army, and apparently there was some conflict he had 665 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: with one of his men, and the man vowed vengeance 666 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 2: against him. So there was talk about that that there 667 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: was somebody had returned from the war against him. Taylor's 668 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: brother had briefly worked for him and then also disappeared. 669 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 2: His brother also left his wife back in New York. 670 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: But really the next suspect doesn't emerge for about forty years. 671 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: That's actually how I got involved with this story. What 672 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,479 Speaker 2: happened in nineteen sixty four was there was an old 673 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: woman in the Hollywood Hills who was friends with a 674 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: family next door who always took her over meals. And 675 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: one day she was having pains in her chest and 676 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 2: began calling for help, and the teenage son of the 677 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: family ran over to help her. He knew wh as 678 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: missus Lewis, and she said that she needed a Catholic priest, 679 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: that she needed to confess before she died. And he said, 680 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 2: what do you want to confess? And she said, well, 681 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 2: I killed William Desmond Taylor. Now lots of people had 682 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 2: come forward over the last forty years saying they had 683 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 2: killed William Desmond Taylor. He didn't even know who William 684 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: Desmond Taylor was. This is nineteen sixty four. He's listening 685 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: to the Beatles. He doesn't know who William Desmond Taylor is. 686 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 2: But it turns out after she died and he went 687 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: through her papers, that she was a movie star, had 688 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: been a silent, silent actress, and her name at the 689 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 2: time was Margaret Gibson. She later changed the name to 690 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: Patricia Palmer. She would have been written off as just 691 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: one more crazy person confessing to the murder, but the 692 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: fact that she did so so late, when nobody even 693 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: remembered the case was interesting. And I discovered her story 694 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: on the website Taylor Ology, which was an amazing, wonderful 695 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: collection of everything to do with the Taylor case, maintained 696 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: aimed by a really remarkable man by the name of 697 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 2: Bruce Long. Everything. You know. They were the inquest files, 698 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 2: there were newspaper articles, and I, you know, at a 699 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 2: period of time when I was not all that excited 700 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: about a book I was working on, so at night 701 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 2: I was doing this other research and I read the 702 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: story of Margaret Gibson, and I said, what's going on? 703 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: Who was she? And it turns out that I discovered 704 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: was that she actually had made pictures with Taylor. She 705 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 2: knew him, They had been on the road together in 706 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: Colorado before he became a director, when they were both 707 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: in repertory companies, and there were so many, so many 708 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 2: parallels after his death. She had always been a b 709 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: picture actress, never at a big studio, but right after 710 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: his death she's hired by Paramount by Adel Zukor to 711 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 2: co star with none other than Mary Miles Minter in 712 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: a big budget Paramount film, the first really big budget 713 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: film she ever did. And I said, Okay, there's something 714 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 2: going on here, and so I began digging more. And 715 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 2: it seemed that the reason she changed her name was 716 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 2: that she was arrested was because of sex work that 717 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 2: she had been doing in Little Tokyo back in nineteen 718 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 2: seventeen or so, and so she had to change her name. 719 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: There was too much going on about Margaret Gibson for 720 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 2: me to just dismiss her story. Is that there's something here. 721 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 2: I don't know if she killed them, it doesn't make 722 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 2: sense because she was only five to one, so she 723 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,959 Speaker 2: doesn't fit the description of the killer either. But there's 724 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: something here and that's what I spent most of my 725 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: time researching. 726 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so where are we now in twenty twenty three 727 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: where this has become an enduring mystery? People still talk 728 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: about this case. I've read about it. So where do 729 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: we stand now? 730 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: I think that this is one of those cases that 731 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: will always interest people, will always fascinate people. And just 732 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 2: like Jack the Ripper, and just like so many of 733 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 2: the Black Dahlia. We don't really want them solved. You 734 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 2: want to be able to keep looking for new clues 735 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 2: and new windows into these stories. So the solution that 736 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 2: I came up with in my book Tinseltown was the 737 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: only one that doesn't contradict the other available evidence, you know, 738 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: the way that Charlotte Shelby does, or Edward Sands or 739 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 2: Mabel Norman. But we can never prove it for sure. 740 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 2: As you said, there is no forensic evidence, so you know, 741 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: we can't find that unless you know, something remarkable was found. 742 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: So where is it now? I think it's one of 743 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 2: those great Hollywood stories that people tell and discuss and 744 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 2: delve into. It is one of the great Hollywood stories. 745 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: So what is the lesson learned here from this story? 746 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,720 Speaker 1: Do you think? I mean, what do we take away 747 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: from all of this mess about this man who seemed 748 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: to be doing a lot of good in an industry 749 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: that was under fire and in some cases rightly. So 750 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, in a time period where this country was 751 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: just in flux in every direction, and you can think 752 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: of what did we learn from this? 753 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you what Hollywood would learn from it. 754 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 2: In the five years that I cover in my book 755 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty five, which is the height 756 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 2: of the tailor scandal and also of the Arbuckle scandal 757 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 2: and several other scandals of the period. We see Hollywood 758 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 2: comingto being. So Hollywood as we know it didn't exist 759 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty, but it was very much fully formed 760 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: by nineteen twenty five. You know, the studio system was 761 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 2: in place, a series of vertical integration. The studios owned 762 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 2: movie theaters. There was a centralized top to bottom factory 763 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 2: system to make movies, to distribute them, to publicize them, 764 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 2: to show them, and that lasted until the nineteen sixties. 765 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: And there was also a sense of what could be 766 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 2: shown and what couldn't be shown, and how stars were 767 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 2: supposed to interact with the public, and how they were 768 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 2: supposed to behave, how women were supposed to behave, how 769 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 2: men were supposed to behave, and that all came into 770 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: shape in those first five years of the nineteen twenties, 771 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 2: and without the scandals, I wonder, I wonder if we 772 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 2: would have seen a different Hollywood and therefore a different 773 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: America in many ways, because you know, Mary Pickford and 774 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 2: Douglas Fairbanks and Charlie Chaplin tried United Artists, which was 775 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: a very different way of making movies. It wasn't a 776 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 2: top down system, it wasn't a controlled vertical integration. It 777 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 2: was about the artists having the say and what they 778 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 2: do and how they make movies and what those movies 779 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 2: are all about. And that system, while it continued in 780 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 2: some ways, was overshadowed by the very business capitalist system 781 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: that adol Zuker primarily set up in the early nineteen twenties. 782 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: So what would have happened if the scandals didn't happen 783 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 2: and artists and creative people continue to have greater sway 784 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 2: in how movies are made and how they're sold. I 785 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: don't know. But because the scandals happened, Hollywood needed that 786 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 2: kind of control, needed that kind of rigid production schedule. 787 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 2: This was the period of time in which the Hayes 788 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: Code was established. Hayes was just coming in when Taylor 789 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: was killed. You know, the series of codes were enacted 790 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 2: throughout the nineteen twenties, and by nineteen thirty we get 791 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 2: the Production Code, which is then enforced rigidly enforced by 792 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty four and is for the next forty years, 793 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: and all of that dates back to these scandals Arbuckle, Taylor, Wallace, Reed, 794 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 2: Mabel Norman, Olif Thomas, others in the early nineteen twenties. 795 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: And if they hadn't happened, if Hollywood hadn't felt so 796 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 2: threatened that so much was at stake, I wonder if 797 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 2: the movies would have been different, and if the American 798 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 2: conversation would have been different. 799 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 800 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 801 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been and exactly 802 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: write production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate 803 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 804 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 805 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 806 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 807 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know 808 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 809 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 810 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. 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