1 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: Guess what oz? 2 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: What's that? 3 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 3: Man? Gosh? 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 4: Well, I am super excited to do this crossover episode 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 4: with you, but before we get started, maybe we should 6 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 4: tell everyone what's going on here. So we are both 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 4: podcast hosts. I do Part Time Genius, a ridiculous general 8 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 4: knowledge show that tackles some of the world's most important questions. 9 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 4: I'd have to say things like what's the story behind 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 4: dogs playing poker? Why does Lichtenstein export so many false teeth? 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 4: And you are the brand new co host of Tech Stuff. 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 4: It is a wildly popular show about the latest technology 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 4: and what it says about does is humans. But I 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 4: feel like we should let people in on a little secret. 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 4: We are also business partners. A few years ago we 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 4: founded the company behind both our shows, which is called Kaleidoscope. 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: That's right. 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 3: We spend an awful lot of time together, but never 19 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 3: recording a podcast together until now, which is kind of crazy. 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: That is true. 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 3: So today we're producing a little bit of a network 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 3: effect where we're doing a crossover between two Kaleidoscope shows, 23 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: Part Time Genius and Tech Stuff. 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 4: I'm so excited about this, And you know, we were 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 4: having I think it was burgers and drinks with our 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 4: palkate and she came up with a perfect topic for 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 4: us both, which is Luddites. 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: So what do you know about Luddites. 30 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about Luddites. I know, I 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: hear that word all the time, and I associate it 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: with England in the past and today with people who 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: are kind of branded as technophobes. 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like we refer to my mom 36 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: as a Luddite a lot and have for a while, 37 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 4: because you know when she told my dad like, oh, 38 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 4: I need to check my email, and what that meant 39 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 4: was he had to go into her email print out 40 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: a stack of email. 41 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: Print it. 42 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: I love it. 43 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: That's that's real classify story of Nomon. That's the ATCO vibes. 44 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 4: I love it. 45 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: She is kind of the CEO of our family. 46 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 4: But you know, so I feel like most people probably 47 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 4: think ludite means anti tech or being against adopting new technologies. 48 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 4: But weirdly, that couldn't be further from the historical truth. 49 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 4: So the best description is that the Luddites were a 50 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 4: worker's rights movement, and these guys were your countrymen, specifically 51 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 4: as your countrymen, So they loosely formed in the early 52 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 4: eighteen hundreds in northern towns and villages in England. And 53 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 4: at the time the wool and textile trade was the 54 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 4: most important industry in Britain. It employed almost a million people, 55 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 4: which is remarkable, right, and textile weavers were the largest 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 4: single group of workers in the country for over a century. 57 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 4: People were really well employed, and some of them even 58 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 4: worked from home. And then something cropped up called the 59 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 4: gig mill. And this is where things get dicey, right. 60 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 4: The gig mill was a wooden machine that napped up 61 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 4: the wool or the cotton into a softened fabric. And 62 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 4: these mills started cropping up with remarkable pace. So basically, 63 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 4: entrepreneurs use these mills to build factories and put hundreds 64 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 4: of thousands of workers out of work. They brought in 65 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 4: unpaid child labor, and they pushed families to the brink 66 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 4: of starvation. 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: Well, I am having an association here which is a 68 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: William Blake poem and also Britain's most famous him Jerusalem, 69 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: which the choruses and did those feet in ancient times 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: walk upon England's mountains green? And did the countenance shine 71 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: forth upon these dark satanic mills? 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: Dark satanic mills. 73 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: Dark satanic mills. Yeah, William Blake took up his pen, 74 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 3: but I think others took up more aggressive hitchforks. 75 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're exactly right. 76 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 4: Like the workers organized and bands of dozens of them 77 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 4: would go out at night. They covered their faces with 78 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 4: coal or with mass and they were armed with blacksmith hammers, 79 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 4: and they'd actually break the machines right and and weirdly, 80 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 4: each group leader went by the same name, General Lud. Now, 81 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 4: the attacks were often prefaced with a note or a 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 4: letter pinned to the door of the mill with a warning, 83 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 4: if you do not pull down your frames, my company 84 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 4: will visit and destroy them, signed ned Lud. 85 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: So this is the we are anonymous, we are legion 86 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: of the nineteenth century. Completely who was ned Lud? 87 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 4: Though, so ned Lud was not a real person. He 88 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 4: was a fictional character based on a myth about an 89 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 4: apprentice who smashed his boss's device and then fled to 90 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 4: Sherwood Forest, which I'm sure most of our listeners know 91 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 4: from Robinhood. It's the wooded area where all those merry 92 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 4: men took refuge, and it's not a quinc evidence that 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 4: ned Lud was also set to reside there. Considering the 94 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 4: spirit of righteous rebelliousness. Anyway, the movement grew pretty quickly, 95 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: and before long there were about fifty machines a week 96 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 4: that were getting destroyed, and the raids definitely got bigger 97 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 4: and weirder as they went along. So many of these 98 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 4: Luddites would pull stockings over their faces during the night raids. 99 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 4: One account talked about a dude wearing a bloody mask 100 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 4: made from a calf skin to disguise himself. Some of 101 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 4: the Luddites wore costumes, and a few of the largest 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 4: bands were led by men in drag who called themselves 103 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 4: General Lud's Wife. 104 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: Isn't that incredible? 105 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 4: So there are in fact famous illustrations from the time 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 4: of Ludite leader's in dress with factories burning in their background. 107 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 4: Supposedly it was an homage to the women who had 108 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 4: also lost their jobs of yarn spinning to automation, so 109 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 4: it was kind of in solidarity with them. Anyway, words 110 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 4: spread about the machine breakers and their cause became really, 111 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 4: really popular. As you can imagine, Basically everyone knew who 112 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 4: was involved, and sometimes these raids even began occurring in 113 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 4: full daylight, but no one talked like the villagers did 114 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 4: not snitch. 115 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: Wow, that's amazing. So it was like almost like an 116 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: open secret who was involved. 117 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, but they were still pretty cautious. So the Luddites 118 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 4: had all these codes and handshakes to protect themselves. Like 119 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 4: if you were going to a meeting at a local pub, 120 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 4: there was a process, right, So first you'd make eye 121 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 4: contact with a Luddite guard who was posted across the room. 122 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 4: Then you'd make a coded hand gesture. The guard would 123 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 4: sort of keep a straight face, keep their cool, they 124 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 4: might even look bored, take a drink, but then they 125 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 4: would suddenly return the gesture. And then you'd actually head 126 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 4: into the back, maybe up a narrow staircase, to a 127 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 4: smaller room, and then you'd have to say a password, 128 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 4: and the password was win work, so you'd say that 129 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 4: to a guard and then finally you'd get into the 130 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 4: secret meeting. 131 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: That's incredible. So it's almost like a Masonic vibe as well. 132 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: But what I mean, how they how they looked upon 133 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: by the broader British society and how much damage did 134 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: they do? 135 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 4: I mean they did a lot of damage. One account 136 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 4: from the time, this is from the Leeds Mercury. It 137 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 4: reported that since the commencement of the Ludite system in Nottingham, 138 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 4: forty two lace frames and five hundred and forty four 139 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 4: plain silk and cotton stocking frames have been destroyed, and 140 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 4: that amounts to about thirteen four hundred pounds in eighteen 141 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 4: eleven prices or about sixteen million dollars today. 142 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: Wow. 143 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: Well, no wonder they were catching people's attention. 144 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, So the Luodites in the early nineteenth century weren't 145 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 4: so much anti technology as really they wanted a humane 146 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: adaptation of technology. And that's I think where some of 147 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 4: this distinction comes in. 148 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: Well, I'm definitely fascinated by everything you're saying, mangsh But 149 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: I guess if we really want to dig into the 150 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: understanding of the Luddite movement, there's someone we should talk to, 151 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: Brian Merchant, who wrote an incredible four hundred page book 152 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: about it. It's called Blood in the Machine, The Origins 153 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 3: of the Rebellion. Again big tech, and lucky for us, 154 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: we managed to get him on the line to talk 155 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: about it. Let's dive in. I know, Mange, shouldn't I 156 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: were excited to talk about the book Blood in the Machine, 157 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: But maybe a good place to thought would be why 158 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: did you decide to spend too much time writing a 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: four hundred page book about the Luddites. 160 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 161 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 5: There's a couple different answers to that, And the first 162 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 5: is that I had sort of spent a long time 163 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 5: as a tech journalist. So you hear it, the term ludite, 164 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 5: it's this derogatory term, and I had just kind of 165 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 5: integrated this term lutite. Oh, someone who hates technology, someone 166 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 5: who gets angry when they have to use a new technology, 167 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 5: makes them want to smash their phone, or you know, 168 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 5: just against progress. 169 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: And so the minute that it became clear to me. 170 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 5: That that was in no way the truth, sort of 171 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 5: like all of my you know, journalistic instincts kicked in 172 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 5: and there's nothing that a journalist likes to do more 173 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 5: than to overturn an assumption. Right, So like I spent 174 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 5: I spent like the nerdiest labor day weekend of my life, 175 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 5: just like reading academic journal articles about the Ledites. And 176 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 5: I was a reporter for Vice at the time. So 177 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 5: I wrote this piece called You've got the Lutites all 178 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 5: wrong because it was clear to me that they're not backwards, 179 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 5: they're not anti progress, they're anti bosses using technology to 180 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 5: sort of exploit them, to grind their livelihoods away, and 181 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 5: so like that sort of key insight stuck with me 182 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 5: because that was over ten years ago. So it was 183 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 5: really at the same time that we started seeing more 184 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 5: of the fallout from the labor forces at Amazon, the 185 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 5: warehouse workers who were working and often really degrading and 186 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 5: inhuman conditions. When it started to be clear that Uber, 187 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 5: after initially seeming to be this great thing, was starting 188 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 5: to squeeze its drivers, and we had stories about drivers 189 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 5: who couldn't afford rent were sleeping in their cars. So 190 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 5: this was all before the AI boom and the fear 191 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 5: that AI was going to replace our jobs. There's all 192 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 5: these examples of ways that tech was really being used 193 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 5: to hurt people or it was having a deleterious effect 194 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 5: on their lives. And then that kind of collided with 195 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 5: this thinking about the Luddites, and I said, maybe this 196 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 5: is a good lens to sort of look at these 197 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 5: emergent resistances to technology. Maybe we should understand more about 198 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: why people have real issues, real complaints about some of 199 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 5: the forces that technology is unleashing on their lives. 200 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 4: I also love that though you figured this out over 201 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 4: labor day. There's something so funny about that. But take 202 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: us into this. Can you situate us in the history 203 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 4: event year. I think it's the eighteen hundreds, Yorkshire, Northern 204 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 4: Nish England. Can you paint a picture of the times 205 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 4: that we're talking about. 206 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 5: So this is the very beginning days of the industrial revolution. 207 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 5: It's not yet quite at the point where if you 208 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 5: just kind of close your eyes and you say, like 209 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 5: peak industrial Revolution and you're imagining the billowing smoke and 210 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 5: like the coughing children working in factories. 211 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: We're not quite there yet. That is beginning to take shape. 212 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 5: So there have been a number of mechanical innovations. So 213 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 5: you had like the steam engine that's allowing for new 214 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 5: sources of power. You have water power coming onto the scene, 215 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 5: and then you have basically all of these inventions that 216 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 5: allows the work of weaving a garment to be done 217 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 5: by one person instead of say six, So it can 218 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 5: automate this task to a great degree. 219 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: You still need a worker to run. 220 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 5: The machine to make sure it's not screwing up, but 221 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 5: it is speeding up the process by which you can 222 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 5: produce goods. And industrialists and factory owners realize that they 223 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 5: can start buying these machines, machines like the gig mill, 224 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 5: the shearing frame that automate different parts of the clothing trade, 225 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 5: and that they can organize them into an early sort 226 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 5: of version of the factory. This is like the late 227 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 5: seventeen nineties early eighteen hundreds that I'm talking about here, 228 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 5: and it's in the midlands of England around Nottingham and Yorkshire, 229 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 5: and so you have workers who are used to working 230 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 5: at home with their families running the machine. They're not 231 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 5: anti technology, they're really good technicians technologists in their homes, 232 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 5: but they start to see the emergence of the factory. 233 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: Who are the innovators behind these kind of proto factories. 234 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 5: The most famous is there's a man named Richard Arkwright 235 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 5: and he's generally considered to be the father of the factory. 236 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 5: You can go in these buildings today and kind of 237 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 5: see for yourself really awful working conditions. There's no ventilation, 238 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 5: there are multiple stories up to six stories, so it's noisy, 239 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 5: and it's just sort of churning out the yarn right 240 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 5: that used to be spun by hand. And so Arkwright 241 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 5: really kind of helped automate away the first sort of 242 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 5: rung of cloth workers. Arkwright figured out a way to 243 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 5: sort of make an astonishing volume of yarn. 244 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: Right. 245 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 5: I opened the book, in fact, with one of the 246 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 5: inventors who will later invent the power loom touring like 247 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 5: this factory, and they're all ruminating all and his sort 248 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 5: of contemporaries are saying, well, it's one thing to make yarn. 249 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 5: That was just that's just women's work. It's another altogether 250 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 5: to automate like weaving a finished garment like that skilled 251 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 5: labor that'll never happen. And then he sets about trying 252 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 5: to do it. 253 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 3: I think you called Arkwright the first startup founder to 254 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: launch a unicorn company, which I love. But how did 255 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 3: the laudite start to fight back? What kind of early 256 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: industrial action did they take? 257 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 5: So basically arc Right's blueprint spreads around the country. People 258 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 5: recognize that you can sort of concentrate labor, and before 259 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 5: long this method of industrialization starts to lower prices and 260 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 5: the artisan workers, the skilled workers, who are still the 261 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 5: largest industrial base of worker in England. 262 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: At the time, England was a cloth producing country. 263 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 5: It exports it all over the world, so you have 264 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 5: more workers doing this than ever and they start to 265 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 5: see this work basically being transferred from that domestic system 266 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 5: where they're working at home into the factory system where 267 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 5: they're either going to have to compete on price they 268 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 5: have to start working for less, or they have to 269 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 5: go work in the factory where it's just a very 270 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 5: dehumanizing and often dangerous place to work. So they start 271 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 5: to form different modes of resistance, and first they go 272 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 5: to Parliament and say, hey, these industrialists are using machinery 273 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 5: that violate these number of rules on the books, like 274 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 5: we have laws that say how long you have to 275 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 5: be an apprentice for we have laws that say how 276 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 5: many threads have to go into a certain garment for 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 5: it to be sold on the market. And they're just 278 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 5: laughed out of Parliament time and time again, saying all 279 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 5: we want is a minimum wage, or maybe we could 280 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 5: figure out a way to get attacks on the output 281 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 5: that they're making that can sort of pay for social benefits, 282 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 5: because they're just sort of tearing up the social contract. 283 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 5: And this isn't the twenty first century. We don't have 284 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 5: a globalized economy. I can't go get a job at 285 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 5: Starbucks pretty much. Weaving is the only thing I know 286 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 5: how to do. So you throw us a bone. Parliament 287 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 5: does not, so they box them out for like ten 288 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 5: years of fighting, and we get to eighteen o nine, 289 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 5: they tear up all the rules altogether. Now it's the 290 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 5: working class pitted against these new industrialists. It's illegal toform unions. 291 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 5: There's no recourse at all, there's no democracy. So you 292 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 5: have a really volatile situation. And finally there's the crop 293 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 5: failure and then some intense tariffs placed on exports during 294 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 5: the Napoleonic War, and people. 295 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: Are quite literally going without food. 296 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 5: That Luttites would often say, you know, the factory owners 297 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 5: have stolen our bread, because again, to them, it didn't 298 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 5: look like the complex machinations of a globalized economy. It 299 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 5: looked like they had a job, they got a fair wage. 300 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 5: And then one day somebody built a giant factory started 301 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 5: selling crappier stuff, taking away their market share, and now 302 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 5: that guy had money. It didn't look complicated to them. 303 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 5: It looked like theft, and it felt like theft. So 304 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 5: it just all goes up in flames. The Luddites emerged. 305 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 5: They say, you've left us no choice. They organized this 306 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 5: gorilla rebellion to fight back. 307 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: Coming up, we meet some of the main characters in 308 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 4: this Ludite movement. Stick with us and welcome back to 309 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 4: the crossover between part time genius and tech stuff where 310 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: we're talking to the wonderful author Brian Merchant. So could 311 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about George Meller and 312 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 4: his role in. 313 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: All of this. 314 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, George Meller is the Ledite that I. 315 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 5: Focus on the most in the book, and we sort 316 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 5: of follow his reluctance to take up the hammer, so 317 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 5: to speak. But he's watching the first sort of uprising happen, 318 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 5: which happens in Nottingham. What they do is they first 319 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 5: send letters to the owners of the obnoxious machines and 320 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 5: they say, your factory has three hundred power looms and 321 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 5: it's putting twelve hundred of our brothers out of work. 322 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 5: Take down those machines or you'll get a visit from 323 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 5: ned Lud's army. Ned Lud is this apocryphal figure who 324 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 5: was supposed to have sort of rebelled against his master, 325 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 5: but they use him as this avatar. 326 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: They sign these letters ned Lud. 327 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 5: You know you're going to get a visit from ned 328 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 5: Lud's army, And then sure enough, a lot of factory 329 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 5: owners do ned Lud's army shows up with hammers in hand. 330 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 5: They hold up an overseer at gunpoint, and they sneak 331 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 5: into the factory and they smashed the machines. 332 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: But only the machines that are that are taking. 333 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 5: Jobs and tearing up the social contract, just those that 334 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 5: are sort of transferring wealth into the hands of the 335 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 5: factory owner away from them. So it was a very 336 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 5: pointed tactic and people loved them at the time. People 337 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 5: cheered the Ludites in the street. Magistrates would come out 338 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 5: and just kind of watch it happen. 339 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 2: The factory owners would be going. 340 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 5: What are you gonna do something about this, buddy, and 341 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 5: they and they're like, well, they kind of have a point. 342 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 5: So at first the Luddites were super popular. They were winning, 343 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 5: they won concessions. A bunch of factory owners said, I 344 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 5: don't want any part of this. Just you know, we'll 345 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 5: raise the prices again, We'll stop using these machines. 346 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 2: You guys win. 347 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 5: So for at least six months or so, it worked 348 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 5: to some extent. And so George Meller is up in 349 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 5: the West Riding, which is these days a few hours 350 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 5: north of Nottingham, and he's reading about this in the newspaper, 351 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 5: and he's saying, these guys have it right. This is 352 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 5: what we should be doing locally, because prices are falling 353 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 5: here right in our town, in Huddersfield, which is the 354 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 5: broader area that George Meller and his cohort worked, and 355 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 5: they had been watching their wages go down, their coworkers 356 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 5: literally starving, sometimes quite desperately, so conditions were extremely dire. 357 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 5: And in the book, I'd chart George Miller's sort of 358 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 5: ambivalence to full throated embrace of this idea of Luddism, 359 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 5: of becoming a Luddite, and then he becomes the local 360 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 5: sort of ned lud or general lud, leading other workers 361 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 5: into battle against the men that are quite literally causing 362 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 5: them to starve. 363 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: One of these is William Horstfel Right. 364 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 5: Yes, William's Horsefall is one of the two most hated 365 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 5: factory owners in town, and in part because he was 366 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 5: just like he was so unabashed to the point where, 367 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: you know, like as he would ride between his factories 368 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 5: into town. 369 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: Little children would would run. 370 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 5: Up and taunt him and say, you know, the Luddites 371 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 5: are gonna get you, and he'll. 372 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 2: Try to whip them with a horsewhip. 373 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 5: He was just like a classic like sort of mustache 374 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 5: twirling villain, like you really like these things that. His 375 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 5: quote was like I look forward to the day when 376 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 5: I like ride up to my saddle girths in Luddite blood. 377 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: So he's gone, wow, yeah, So he's taunting them. 378 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 5: He's sort of also turning his factory into a fortress, 379 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 5: so he's hiring mercenaries. So should the Luddites attack him, 380 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 5: they you know, he would gun them down before they 381 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 5: got there, or pour boiling oil on their heads. Things 382 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 5: like we would you know, associate with an assault on 383 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 5: a castle in medieval times or something. But it's an 384 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 5: extreme case because you got to remember that, like this 385 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 5: is on the front line of just industrial capitalism. This 386 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 5: is just taking shape right now, and no one really 387 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: knows what to make of it. A lot of factory 388 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 5: owners were like, ah, like I'm really torn. But if 389 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 5: I don't buy automating machinery, then my neighbor will and 390 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 5: he'll buy more of it and I won't be able 391 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 5: to compete then, And some factory owners say, I'm out 392 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: of the game. I don't want to contribute to the 393 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 5: ruination of working men's lives. I give up, I'm out. Others, 394 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 5: you know, continue to try to do it the old 395 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 5: way and buy from the weavers who work at home, 396 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 5: but it really sort of ultimately everybody has to compete 397 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 5: with men like Horsefall. 398 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: So one of the. 399 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: Things we were interested in was like how the Loveites 400 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 4: aren't just this group of people with the mallets to 401 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 4: break up these machines, but that they were actually kind 402 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 4: of savvy with pr as well. Yeah, is that something 403 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 4: you could talk about. 404 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, of course they were savvy in a way that 405 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 5: we might recognize today. The entire sort of construction of 406 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 5: their movement and the that they sort of chose to 407 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 5: go about building Luddism is really interesting, and it's decentralized. 408 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 5: It's almost meme based, right, So you have this figure 409 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 5: ned lud who is made up almost certainly, and you 410 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 5: have a set of tactics that can be replicated or emulated. 411 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 5: Where you write a threatening letter, you make sure it's 412 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 5: like posted out on the door, so it's like written 413 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 5: up in the newspapers or people see it and talk 414 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 5: about it and it causes a stir and you build 415 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 5: up this sense that your movement could be anywhere, right, 416 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 5: that's not your real names aren't attached to it. 417 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: These letters are showing up anywhere. 418 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 5: And it's it's replicable because if you're in a completely 419 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 5: different part of the country and you have the similar 420 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 5: grievances or ones that you want to address through, this 421 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 5: means you can just become a Lottite, right. You don't 422 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 5: have to have this central planning committee. You can just 423 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 5: gather your men in a pub as they did at 424 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 5: the time, and you can write your own letters. So 425 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 5: that's exactly what happens. It happens around Manchester and in 426 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 5: different parts of Nottinghamshire and all these different parts of 427 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 5: the Midlands of England, so they a lot of them 428 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 5: just kind of explodes. 429 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,239 Speaker 3: I remember when I first moved to New York, it 430 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 3: was a time of occupy Woolve Street and there was 431 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 3: this like very exciting feeling in the street downtown that 432 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: like people are taken the streets and that like the 433 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 3: authorities didn't know what to do. And then like a 434 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: few days past and the authorities decided to basically make 435 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 3: their tactics much more harsh, and then Occupy Wolf Street 436 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: was over right, So and it makes me think a 437 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: little bit about the Battle of Wolfitz mill in your 438 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 3: in your book. 439 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an analogy. 440 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 5: I was thinking about a lot too, and black lives matter, 441 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 5: where you can basically take the core ideas and the 442 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 5: core grievances and then they mobilize them because you didn't 443 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 5: need sort of, you know, an approval structure where you 444 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 5: have like a hierarchy and leadership that has to be 445 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 5: consulted before you move on. But yeah, as you said, 446 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 5: the Ludites run into real trouble when a few things happen, 447 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 5: and that's when the state makes it a crime punishable 448 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 5: by death to break a machine. So now if you 449 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 5: break a machine, you can be strung up and you 450 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 5: can be hung. And they've sent tens of thousands of 451 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 5: troops to occupy the districts where Luddism is going on. 452 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 5: The state has it is the largest domestic occupation military 453 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 5: occupation of England in history, with just at one point 454 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 5: north of thirty thousand troops stationed just to fight the Ludites. 455 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 5: And then you finally have sort of this license given 456 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 5: by the state for industrialists to. 457 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: Fight fire with fire. 458 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 5: Basically until this point, the Luddites are not violent except 459 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 5: against machines. They are breaking the machines, as this labor tactic, 460 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 5: as this strategy, but with the law passed, with the 461 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 5: army there and with like the mercenaries there, factory owners 462 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 5: are basically given license to shoot back. And so that's 463 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 5: what really happens at this famous Battle of Raffold's Mill, 464 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 5: when it's supposed to be sort of the crowning achievement 465 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 5: of the Luedtite movement. At that point, George Meller is 466 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 5: helping to lead this effort. He's gathered over one hundred 467 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 5: Ledtites and they're just going to go and attack Raffold's Mill, 468 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 5: and little do they know that this factory too has 469 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 5: been turned into a military fortress. So they get there 470 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 5: and guards open fire. A bunch of Ledites are gunned down, 471 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 5: they can't get inside. They basically have to call a retreat, 472 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 5: and somewhere between three and four Lutedites are believed to 473 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 5: have died, possibly even many more. But it's a big disaster. 474 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 5: And one of George Meller's sort of close friends, somebody 475 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 5: who he had sort of talked into joining the Ledite movement, 476 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 5: is one of the men who was gunned down, a 477 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 5: young apprentice and kind of sens sends George Meller off 478 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 5: the deep end, and he sort of you know, breaks 479 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 5: bad as it were, and he goes and assassinates the 480 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 5: other factory owner, William Horsefall in cold Blood. 481 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: He assassinates, and it was that Hostel basically thought that 482 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 3: he'd won and ventured out of the factory fortress and 483 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 3: and Mellow was lying in wait or how did this happen? 484 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean basically Horsefall was he was never afraid, 485 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 5: He was never cowed really, so it really does speak 486 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 5: again this sort of this tech titan mindset where like 487 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 5: you have to say, you know, people be damned, I 488 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 5: don't care if they hate me. I don't care if 489 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 5: it's even dangerous for me to be in the public. 490 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 5: I'm going to sort of run rough shot over these 491 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 5: norms and standards and just show that, you know, I 492 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 5: believe what I'm doing is right, is justified. Just kind 493 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 5: of like arc right back in the day. He had 494 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 5: also had to accept being despised by a lot of people. 495 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 5: So Horsefall was just he he had gone out and 496 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 5: wash was had a drink and was was riding home, 497 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 5: and they knew the route that he took from the 498 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 5: cloth market where he would sell his goods back to 499 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 5: his his factory. 500 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: And his home. 501 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 5: So they Yeah, they lay in wait and they ambushed 502 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 5: him on the way and they gunned him down. 503 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 4: Tell us about this trial with with about Horsefall. 504 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 505 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 5: So again another indicator of how sort of widely liked 506 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 5: the Luddites were is that for a long time, well 507 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 5: both liked and feared, you should say, they would nobody 508 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 5: would inform on them like they would. There would be 509 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 5: entire towns where most people, with most working people would 510 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 5: know exactly who was involved right in a in a 511 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 5: factory raid, who smashed the factory owners automating machinery last night? 512 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 5: Who was behind this? No one would say a word. No, 513 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 5: The authorities could not get anybody to come forward. And 514 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 5: so it was the same with uh with the case 515 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 5: of Horsefall. When the authorities started making the rounds and 516 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 5: sort of pulling everybody in and interrogating them, nobody said 517 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 5: anything for months and months and months. So it finally 518 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 5: took the authorities basically putting a huge sort of bounty 519 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 5: or promising a big payment for anybody who brought in information. 520 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 5: And then one of the mothers of one of the 521 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 5: men sort of George, enlisted to go kind of assassinate 522 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 5: Horsefall said you got to take this, and then sort 523 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 5: of went and told the magistrate that it was George 524 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 5: and they and it finally flipped him. So it took 525 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 5: a long time before they could even get him, you know, 526 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 5: you get him behind bars. But you know, once they did, 527 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 5: I think it was understood that this would make a 528 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 5: good sort of show trial. Right, so it was going 529 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 5: to be George and a few of his compadres who 530 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 5: were believed to be there when they when they assassinated Horsefall. 531 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 5: But then it was going to be another round of 532 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 5: like over a dozen just Luddites who it had have 533 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 5: been involved in sort of the factory strikes and breaking 534 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 5: machines more broadly. So, I think the state understood that 535 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 5: this was their best chance at making this very unsympathetic. 536 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 5: The trial is is packed, it's it's like a big 537 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 5: sort of media event, and you know, the state uses 538 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 5: it to make this case not just about George and 539 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 5: the assassination, but of Luddism more broadly. 540 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: So this is where for the one of the first 541 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: times you have this. 542 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 5: Equation of Luddism to sort of backwards looking, to being dumb, 543 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 5: to being oh these these deluded men. Of course, it's 544 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 5: left out of the equation that they're that they're starving, 545 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 5: that their families can't eat, that that many of them 546 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 5: were involved in reform protest movements for decades, or try 547 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 5: to get things done the right way before it got 548 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 5: to this point. All of that, of course, is out 549 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 5: the window. It's just like, look at this, Look at 550 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 5: these Luedites who are willing to do. 551 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: Violence because they hate machines so much. 552 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 3: So the state is not just wanting to convict George 553 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 3: in his compadres, is really looking to sort of use 554 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 3: this trials and opportunity to win the battle of ideas 555 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 3: and to smear the Luddite movement in a way that 556 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 3: I guess with quite effective ultimately. 557 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. 558 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: And at the time a lot of newspapers are still 559 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 5: financed by the monarchy, by its prince. Regent is running 560 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 5: the country at the time, and he does his office 561 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 5: does issue a lot of propaganda about the Leddites, you know, 562 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 5: from the beginning, off and on, and then really seizes 563 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 5: this moment to again, yeah, equate the Leddites as dummies, 564 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 5: as malcontents, as backwards looking destroying that which they do 565 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 5: not understand a lot of the key ingredients that would 566 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 5: sort of be stamped on history as as the Ludites 567 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 5: as we understand them today. 568 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 3: Well happened to the actual Luddites, to Georgi and co. 569 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 5: They're hung, right, They're hung publicly, Yeah, outside of the 570 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 5: walls of York Castle. And it's a spectacle, you know, 571 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 5: it's an event like this is what happens when you 572 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 5: turn against progress. And then even more notable shortly after that, 573 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 5: they have the trial of the Lueddites just strictly for 574 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 5: machine breaking and they're all hung too, you know, over 575 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 5: a dozen people. You know, once again just sort of 576 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 5: underlining the fact that this is what will happen to 577 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 5: you if you oppose the machinery of the state, of 578 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 5: this approach that we have taken to industrialization. 579 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: Because the rich, the elite. 580 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 5: In England at the time really liked industrialization obviously, like 581 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 5: they when factories are built on their lands, that's more taxes, 582 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 5: more income. They benefit from that, it contributes to the 583 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 5: war effort. In their eyes, they can produce a great 584 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 5: deal more so they have an interest in sort of 585 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 5: defending this centralized industrial approach that the Luddites threatened so 586 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 5: this sort of version of Luddism as backwards looking is 587 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 5: therefore sort of entered into the history books, and it 588 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 5: has remained as such ever since for two hundred years. 589 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: It is it is crazy to think that like in 590 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 4: the beginning, there were offering ideas, trying to propose reforms. 591 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 4: They were like, you know, targeting just these specific machines 592 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 4: and then you know, they become the enemy of the state. 593 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 4: But where does the Luttite movement go, Like does it 594 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 4: peter out? Like do they have any wins in this 595 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 4: whole process? 596 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I want it just for one second to what 597 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 5: you just said there. I think it's really interesting that 598 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 5: they did, like they proposed even something that would sort 599 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 5: of like that sounds today like something that like Andrew 600 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 5: Yang or Bill Gates has said, you know, tax like 601 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 5: the productivity of the machines a little bit like. 602 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: The robot tax, the robot tax. 603 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 5: It would work this same way. They had the same idea. 604 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 5: These are not radical, you know, Bill Gates is hardly 605 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 5: a radical. Were they really did try in good faith 606 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 5: to sort of suggest ways to build a better runway 607 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 5: to the future rather than one where just a handful 608 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 5: of rich guys to get to hoard all the gains 609 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 5: from it at everyone else's expense, and they just well, 610 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 5: leudism is what it came to. So the trials are 611 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 5: in eighteen thirteen. There are sort of more sporadic sort 612 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 5: of ebbs and flows of Leutism until about eighteen nineteen, 613 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 5: but by far the most explosive years of Lettism are 614 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 5: eighteen eleven eighteen twelve, and then sort of when it's 615 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 5: crushed in eighteen thirteen. But importantly, there are some Lutedites who, 616 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 5: for instance, were all sort of Lutedites by night and 617 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 5: then reform politicians or reformers by day, and so that 618 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 5: sort of thread continues, and it feeds into the broader 619 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 5: workers movement, people who are fighting for the right to 620 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 5: collectively bargain to repeal these acts that prevented them from 621 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 5: forming unions that were on the books, and so Luddites 622 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 5: sort of take on more of a political character. But 623 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 5: the broader tale or legacy of Leutism is this transference 624 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 5: into the reform movement where people actually do finally win concessions, 625 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 5: the right to unionize, the right to fight for better conditions. 626 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 5: It sort of segues in even to the right to vote, 627 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 5: so Lueddites are really vital in activating sort of a 628 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 5: political consciousness. There's a famous book called The Making of 629 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 5: the English Working Class by E. P. Thompson, and his 630 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 5: whole sort of meaty middle of the book is all 631 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 5: about the Luttites, because it's this explosive, catalyzing event that 632 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 5: gets workers from all over the country to sort of 633 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 5: go like, hey, this is kind of happening in my 634 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 5: industry too. It has the same broad shape, like I 635 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 5: have like the same grievances against my boss and over 636 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 5: the way he's using machinery and they're fighting back in 637 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 5: this way, and I can kind of imagine myself doing that. 638 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 5: So he argues that it really just sort of forms 639 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 5: class consciousness in England. 640 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: For one of the first times. 641 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 4: Coming up, lessons we can learn from the Luddites. Stick 642 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 4: with us, Welcome back to Part Time Genius and Tech Stuff, 643 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 4: our first crossover episode where we're talking to the wonderful 644 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 4: writer Brian Merchant, all about Luddites. Let's get back into it. 645 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 3: On the very first page of the book, you write, quote, 646 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: this could be today, and you ask the reader to quote, 647 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 3: imagine millions of ordinary people plagued by a fear that 648 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 3: technology is accelerating out of control. They worry that machines 649 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 3: are coming to take away that job, upend the order 650 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 3: of their lives. Inequality is rempant, and power is wielded 651 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 3: by those commanding wealth and new technologies. You don't need 652 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 3: a great imagination to picture the scene. How do you 653 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 3: understand what's happening right now today through the lens of 654 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 3: your work on the LA lights. 655 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean. 656 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 5: The corollaries are so stark that you barely do need 657 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 5: any imagination at all to see them. I mean, it's 658 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 5: just right there, especially with generative AI and the way 659 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 5: that it's being used in a lot of creative industries 660 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 5: right now. But more broadly, there's a ton of anxieties 661 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 5: around AI and what it's going to mean for the 662 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 5: broader economy and for working people. 663 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: It's almost to a t. 664 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 5: You can kind of go down the list of things 665 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 5: that are happening and it's like, well, they had these 666 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 5: machines and they could create stuff that was cheaper but. 667 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: Not really better. 668 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 5: You had to have people to like sort of go 669 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 5: oversee the output to make sure you could still use it. 670 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 5: But you could still make enough of a case that 671 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 5: you can de skill or sort of move work away 672 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 5: from this column of skilled workers and put it over 673 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 5: here in this column. So when you're looking at you know, 674 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 5: artists or illustrators or copywriters or a lot of creative 675 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,959 Speaker 5: workers who are seeing the impacts already of generative AI 676 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 5: on their livelihoods, like this is the form it's taking, right. 677 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 5: It's not that it's being automated away completely, but the 678 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 5: fear is just that it's kind of a wrecking ball 679 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 5: to the norms and standards of their livelihoods, and that 680 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 5: suddenly somebody who has access to mid journey and no 681 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 5: training as an artist at all can kind of, you know, 682 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 5: if a company wants to, you know, take the risk 683 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 5: running a foul right now of copyright law or whatever 684 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 5: things that are still undecided, they can do that. Instead, 685 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 5: they can produce output if they need images for their 686 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 5: you know, PowerPoint slides or for their their magazines or 687 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 5: whatever whatever it may be. 688 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 3: Who are who are the Laddites of today? I mean, 689 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 3: is it my engage's mother who who requires their emails 690 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: to be printed out? Is Itoni? Is it Christian Small's 691 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 3: the Amazon factory worker who led that industrial action? I mean, 692 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 3: who in this sort of spectrum. Do you identify the 693 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 3: new Lottites. 694 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think of those three options, Christian Smalls is 695 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 5: the closest, although he is also I think, just a 696 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 5: very traditional and effective union organizer. But a lot of 697 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 5: the grievances that Amazon workers have do come from the 698 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 5: company's insistence on, you know, using technological tools to sort 699 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 5: of surveil them or sort of like gamify their workplace. 700 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 5: They have to be so productive, you know all the 701 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 5: stories about how long they have to complete a task. 702 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 5: You know drivers that are peeing in bottles because they 703 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 5: don't want to get docked for stopping when they're delivering 704 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 5: a package. So those are all sort of technologically motivated. 705 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 5: But I would say the Ledites of today are largely, 706 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 5: but not entirely, people who see AI or technologies creeping 707 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 5: into their workplaces and are willing to sort of refuse 708 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 5: the way that it's being deployed against them. So the 709 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 5: most powerful example, I think are the writers and actors 710 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 5: in Hollywood who really took a stand in twenty twenty 711 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 5: three against the way that the studios were hinting that 712 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 5: they wanted to use AI, which is to write scripts 713 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 5: or to generate scripts and then have writers rewrite them 714 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 5: for less money, less fees, less intellectual property, thus again 715 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 5: not necessarily eliminating the role of the writer, but degrading 716 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 5: it significantly. You have nurses who are fighting hospitals that 717 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 5: sort of want to deploy AI in the similarly top 718 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 5: down way, with executives saying, well, a I should be 719 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 5: used for this and this and this, instead of saying, nurses, 720 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 5: how would you find AI useful? In which context might 721 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 5: you want to use this now? Instead, it's like, you 722 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 5: must use AI to make this diagnosis. If you do 723 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 5: it incorrectly, then we can penalize you. And the nurses 724 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 5: are looking at this and saying this is going to. 725 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 2: Be a nightmare. 726 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 5: It is a nightmare because it's taking more time to 727 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 5: get medicine to patients who need it, and I can't 728 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 5: override it because it's built in. It's again, it's the 729 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 5: issue always comes when it's top down, when the technology 730 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 5: is rammed through by management or thrust upon working a 731 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 5: population who has no real democratics say in how it's 732 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 5: then used. So I've talked to nurses educators who are 733 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 5: seeing AI handed down by administrators to put into the classrooms, 734 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 5: and again usually The issue isn't just that the AI exists, 735 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 5: it's the way that bosses are forcing people to use 736 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 5: it that they don't like. 737 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 2: So I think as some of the objectives. 738 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 5: Of AI companies because come a little more pointed as 739 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 5: they try to infiltrate further into workplaces and people feel 740 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 5: the heat more, I do think with it will start 741 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 5: to see even more resistance there. 742 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 4: I think I think that's what was so eye opening 743 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 4: about all this was that Luedtites really weren't against progress 744 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 4: or technology, but but really the social costs that we're 745 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 4: you know, coming from this. But ever since writing this book, 746 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 4: and I'm sure talking with friends and stuff, has anyone 747 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 4: taken up the term LA as a badge of. 748 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 5: Honor besides me, h, yeah, there are It's like the 749 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 5: rested development. 750 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 2: There are dozens of us, dozens. 751 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 5: But no, I think it's you are seeing it pop 752 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 5: up more and more. 753 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 2: There are a number. 754 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 5: Of of podcasts and cultural figures and people who identify 755 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 5: more directly with the Luttites. It's hard. It's hard to 756 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 5: overcome that to you know. It's and I think a 757 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 5: lot of people are kind of wondering whether do we 758 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 5: just reclaim the term outright do we say what we're 759 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 5: doing is something different? But like no, I, since I've 760 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 5: written this book, I think not a day goes by 761 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 5: where somebody tags me in some thread or sends me 762 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 5: some message that today I found out the Ludites kick ass, 763 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 5: or today I found out the Ludites were awesome. 764 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: And it's happening all the time. 765 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 5: Artists, writers, librarians, archivists, journalists, people are you know, sort 766 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 5: of at least recognizing, you know, that the Luddites were 767 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,399 Speaker 5: right at least to have a wide range of grievances. 768 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 5: You know, there can be disagreement about their tactics, but 769 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 5: their critique what they were angry about. 770 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 2: I think seeing what we're seeing and. 771 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 5: Right now it looks a lot like AI is going 772 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 5: to be unleashed by a handful of extremely large companies 773 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 5: that are more than likely to pocket most of the games, 774 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 5: then it's not hard to see, you know, where where 775 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 5: the grievances is. I think again, most Ludites even today 776 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,919 Speaker 5: are not just like no, AI smash it. 777 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 2: I hate it all, But. 778 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 5: It's like, we absolutely have to make sure that this 779 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 5: technology is not just primarily exploiting people for the benefit 780 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 5: of a few execs in Silicon Valley, right, And I 781 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 5: think that that is something that just kind of intuitively 782 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 5: is seen by more people now, and so when they 783 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 5: hear the Luddite story, it's like, oh, yeah, well that's 784 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 5: not all that different than us today, So maybe I 785 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 5: am a Loedite. 786 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Brian, Yeah, my pleasure. If you 787 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 3: want to hear more from Brian, I'm sure have him 788 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 3: back on tech stuff really soon. And he also has 789 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 3: his own brand new podcast. Check it out. It's called 790 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 3: System Crash. 791 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 4: I actually love System Crash and I've been binging it 792 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 4: this week. But that's it for today's Part Time Genius. 793 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 3: And today's tech stuff for this week. 794 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 4: If you like what you hear, hit us up on 795 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 4: Twitter or Instagram, or drop us a line in the 796 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 4: Apple Reviews. Also, you can check out Kaleidoscope's other shows. 797 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 4: And if you have a great Luddite fact we missed 798 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 4: or have a topic you want us to cover, be 799 00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 4: short or write us about those two. 800 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,359 Speaker 3: And thank you so much for listening to both Part 801 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 3: Time Genius and Text