WEBVTT - How to Build Empathy and Avoid Burnout 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.836 Pushkin. It's often counterintuitive for people that empathy could be 0:00:33.876 --> 0:00:36.996 more than one thing, like walking in someone else's shoes, 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.316 feeling their pain, caring about them and being kind. And 0:00:40.356 --> 0:00:43.156 people say, how could one word like empathy refer to 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:46.636 many things? But empathy is the way that other people's 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:50.316 experiences get into our experiences, and so there should be 0:00:50.356 --> 0:00:54.356 many ways that that happens. That's Jamie Zaki, a professor 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:58.476 of psychology and an expert on empathy. Jamil is the 0:00:58.516 --> 0:01:01.836 author of the book The War for Kindness, Building Empathy 0:01:01.916 --> 0:01:05.156 in a Fractured World, and he sees empathy as a 0:01:05.236 --> 0:01:10.076 kind of psychological superglue that connects people. Neil says empathy 0:01:10.196 --> 0:01:12.476 is a skill we can cultivate and that we should 0:01:12.516 --> 0:01:16.396 be more intentional about where we focus it. Empathy is 0:01:16.436 --> 0:01:19.236 like a spotlight. The thing that I think is really 0:01:19.276 --> 0:01:21.836 important to remember is that we are the ones pointing 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:26.116 that spotlight, and that we have agency. We have autonomy 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:30.316 to align our emotional experiences with the people we want 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:35.356 to be. On today's episode, a deep dive into the 0:01:35.436 --> 0:01:38.836 science of empathy, the different types, how we can build it, 0:01:39.036 --> 0:01:41.676 and what you can do if you feel things too much. 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:47.116 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plan, 0:01:47.796 --> 0:01:49.916 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:50.156 --> 0:02:01.396 in the face of a big change. I would love 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:03.996 to start by hearing about how it is that you 0:02:04.076 --> 0:02:07.756 got interested in the topic of empathy. Yeah. Well, I've 0:02:07.756 --> 0:02:10.556 been interested in this topic since well before I knew 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:14.196 what the word empathy meant. My parents come from very 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:17.436 different places. My dad is from Pakistan and my mom 0:02:17.556 --> 0:02:21.476 is from Peru, and they both immigrated to the United 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:23.996 States when they were about twenty five years old and 0:02:24.116 --> 0:02:26.956 ended up, of all places, in Pullman, Washington, at Washington 0:02:26.996 --> 0:02:30.636 State University, where they met and fell in love. I 0:02:30.716 --> 0:02:33.236 think that they fell in love mostly because they both 0:02:33.276 --> 0:02:37.596 felt out of place in the US as immigrants, as foreigners, 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.716 you know. And I think that they found solace and 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:44.156 commiseration in each other. But I think as they grew 0:02:44.196 --> 0:02:48.236 acclimated to this country, they realized how little they have 0:02:48.316 --> 0:02:51.996 in common, which is very little, like very little, And 0:02:52.036 --> 0:02:54.196 by the time I was six years old, it was 0:02:54.196 --> 0:02:56.276 clear that it wasn't going to work for them. They 0:02:56.316 --> 0:02:58.956 started divorcing when I was eight, but didn't finish until 0:02:58.956 --> 0:03:01.076 I was twelve, and it was not what you would 0:03:01.116 --> 0:03:04.236 call an amicable split. I'm their only child, and for 0:03:04.316 --> 0:03:08.796 a bunch of my childhood, my primary experience was being 0:03:08.836 --> 0:03:12.516 in this state of conflict with these two people whose 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:16.076 minds and hearts were as different as the countries that 0:03:16.156 --> 0:03:19.116 they came from, and it was a lot of turmoil. 0:03:19.156 --> 0:03:21.196 It was a lot of pain, and so I felt 0:03:21.236 --> 0:03:23.756 like my job as a kid, almost as a survival 0:03:23.796 --> 0:03:27.436 strategy for our family, was to learn to tune myself 0:03:27.636 --> 0:03:31.156 to their different frequencies. I think these days of my 0:03:31.236 --> 0:03:34.716 parents divorces like an empathy gym that forced me to 0:03:34.916 --> 0:03:39.956 work at care and understanding. Yeah. Interesting. I love the 0:03:40.036 --> 0:03:42.796 definition of empathy that you give in your book. It's 0:03:42.836 --> 0:03:46.156 really beautiful to me and very stirring. You talk about 0:03:46.196 --> 0:03:51.196 empathy as being our emotional and psychological entanglements with one another. 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:55.116 You also define three different types of empathy, and I'm 0:03:55.116 --> 0:03:57.036 wondering if we can actually just walk through each one 0:03:57.036 --> 0:03:58.916 in detail to give people a sense of what each 0:03:58.956 --> 0:04:02.036 of these different types of empathy means. So I love 0:04:02.036 --> 0:04:04.236 it if we could first talk about what you call 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:11.236 emotional empathy. Emotional empathy is the evolutionary and developmentally oldest 0:04:11.396 --> 0:04:13.996 type of empathy, so it's the type of empathy we 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.516 share with many other species in fact, and it's this 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:21.316 idea of resonance or feeling what other people feel. So 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:24.276 it's that experience of I don't know if you've ever 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:28.276 watched a tightrope walker and you kind of feel yourself, Yeah, 0:04:28.356 --> 0:04:30.796 like your palms start to sweat and you feel like 0:04:30.796 --> 0:04:34.476 I'm hyperactive ver neurals hard for me to watch movies 0:04:34.516 --> 0:04:39.996 even exactly. So that experience of resonance, whether it's motor resonance, 0:04:40.036 --> 0:04:42.316 sort of as you see someone move in a certain way, 0:04:42.316 --> 0:04:44.396 you kind of feel something in that part of your body. 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:47.396 It can be resonance for pain, it can be resonance 0:04:47.436 --> 0:04:51.596 for different emotions like sadness, anger, and joy as well. 0:04:51.996 --> 0:04:56.116 But that sense of overlap between self and other emotionally 0:04:56.276 --> 0:04:58.956 is what we think of as emotional empathy. And how 0:04:59.036 --> 0:05:03.916 is that different from cognitive empathy. Yeah, so cognitive empathy 0:05:03.956 --> 0:05:06.156 I would think of as the detective work that we 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:10.236 do to try to understand what's in someone's mind. Now, 0:05:10.396 --> 0:05:14.676 there's a big difference between emotional and cognitive empathy. Emotional 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:18.716 empathy often trades on the things that we have in common. 0:05:18.996 --> 0:05:21.396 If I see you in pain. I can sort of 0:05:21.396 --> 0:05:24.516 imagine what that feels like, and it's the similarities between 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:28.036 us that allow me to access that type of emotional empathy. 0:05:28.756 --> 0:05:31.676 Cognitive empathy is useful when we don't come from the 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:34.516 same place, when I'm trying to take the perspective of 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:39.076 someone whose worldview or perspective is different from my own. 0:05:39.836 --> 0:05:42.996 And then finally, the third type of empathy is something 0:05:42.996 --> 0:05:47.156 that you call empathic concern or compassion. Do you mind 0:05:47.196 --> 0:05:50.756 just describing what empathic concern is. It's a desire to 0:05:51.476 --> 0:05:56.036 improve somebody else's well being, to decrease their suffering, or 0:05:56.076 --> 0:05:59.356 to increase their joy. It's a mission that we put 0:05:59.356 --> 0:06:03.116 ourselves on, right, It's a motivation, And that part of 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:06.796 empathy is actually probably the least well understood by scientists 0:06:06.836 --> 0:06:10.156 and the most well understood by spiritual practice. Tis. It's 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:14.876 been studied and developed for thousands of years in numerous 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:20.476 spiritual traditions. But neuroscientists, for instance, have studied compassion far 0:06:20.556 --> 0:06:23.916 less than they've studied cognitive empathy, and much less than 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:27.436 what we think of as emotional empathy. So to summarize, 0:06:27.556 --> 0:06:32.396 empathy has three core components. Emotional empathy, which is that 0:06:32.476 --> 0:06:35.676 kind of resonance, that feeling of what other people feel. 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:39.756 Cognitive empathy the efforts we make to try to understand 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:42.956 what is in someone's mind and in their heart. And 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:47.676 empathic concern or compassion, the desire or motivation we have 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:52.116 to improve their well being. One of the most fascinating 0:06:52.396 --> 0:06:54.556 things you talk about in your book that really stuck 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:57.956 with me is that these three types of empathy are 0:06:58.036 --> 0:07:01.556 only moderately correlated with each other. So, for example, you 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:05.196 can be the kind of person who intensely feels another 0:07:05.236 --> 0:07:08.276 person's sadness, but you might not be very good at 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:11.756 understanding why they feel that way or how to actually 0:07:11.836 --> 0:07:14.516 help them. Yeah. I think a lot of times when 0:07:14.516 --> 0:07:16.796 I describe the three pieces of empathy, people are like, 0:07:16.836 --> 0:07:19.156 all right, Zachi, you just describe the same thing in 0:07:19.196 --> 0:07:22.116 three different ways. You know, if I share what someone feels, 0:07:22.116 --> 0:07:24.756 won't I understand it? And if I understand it once, 0:07:24.796 --> 0:07:26.876 I also care about it, And I say, well, you 0:07:26.916 --> 0:07:28.996 know that's fair. But it turns out that these pieces 0:07:28.996 --> 0:07:32.636 of empathy, although they do connect in many ways, are 0:07:32.876 --> 0:07:36.076 weirdly independent at a number of levels. So, for one, 0:07:36.316 --> 0:07:39.676 they're not that correlated in the population. If you are 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:43.156 somebody who really takes on other people's feelings. That doesn't 0:07:43.156 --> 0:07:44.956 tell me very much about how good you'll be at 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:48.596 understanding them. In fact, one of the biggest mistakes we 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:52.756 make in cognitive empathy is assuming that people are just 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:55.756 like us, assuming that we can use ourselves as a 0:07:55.756 --> 0:07:59.516 beacon for understanding someone else. So, for instance, if I 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:02.756 meet somebody else whose parents are divorced and they tell 0:08:02.756 --> 0:08:05.196 me their story, I might think to myself, Oh, their 0:08:05.196 --> 0:08:07.996 parents divorce must have been really difficult for them, because 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:10.076 my parents' divorce is really difficult for me. But maybe 0:08:10.076 --> 0:08:12.716 they had a breeze of it, right. And our overuse 0:08:12.996 --> 0:08:16.196 of assume similarity is one of the things that gets 0:08:16.196 --> 0:08:19.756 this in the most trouble with respect to cognitive empathy. Yeah, 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:21.996 it's so interesting in this moment, I'm reflecting Jamil on 0:08:22.036 --> 0:08:24.996 the fact that we tend to put a premium on 0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:29.836 this first type of empathy, emotional empathy one, because it 0:08:29.916 --> 0:08:32.716 does breathe this instant feeling of solidarity. So I sit 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:34.916 down for dinner with you, I tell you about my problem, 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:38.676 and it just feels so unifying to see that you 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:41.396 are carrying a bit of my distress, right, that you 0:08:41.436 --> 0:08:44.516 are feeling my pain, and similarly, if you're the one 0:08:44.556 --> 0:08:47.116 feeling it, it feels really good to feel someone else's 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:49.796 pain because you know you're connecting with them emotionally. But 0:08:49.876 --> 0:08:53.076 I'm reflecting in this moment that maybe we should be 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:56.036 more open minded about the different ways in which people 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:59.916 can provide empathy to us. Right, someone might not actually 0:08:59.956 --> 0:09:02.756 be great at emotional empathy, but their intentions might very 0:09:02.756 --> 0:09:05.676 well be in the right place. They absolutely have that 0:09:05.796 --> 0:09:08.436 will to help you. So in that moment, I might 0:09:08.476 --> 0:09:12.236 write them off and say, oh, they didn't even seem 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:14.996 to care that I'm having the worst day ever and 0:09:15.116 --> 0:09:17.476 all these terrible things happen to me, and so they're 0:09:17.516 --> 0:09:21.196 an unempathetic person. But upon reflection, if I think through 0:09:21.276 --> 0:09:23.636 this lens, this framework that you're providing for us, and 0:09:23.716 --> 0:09:26.876 might think, look, maybe emotional empathy in this person is 0:09:26.916 --> 0:09:31.156 not super high, but they really excel in the cognitive 0:09:31.156 --> 0:09:33.836 empathy space. They are like my super friend when it 0:09:33.876 --> 0:09:36.796 comes to understanding what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it, 0:09:36.836 --> 0:09:39.596 ways that they can actually help me. And so I 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:40.956 just wonder if you could lead all of us to 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:44.516 kind of revisit our expectations of others and from ourselves, 0:09:44.836 --> 0:09:47.996 and to recognize that even if someone doesn't excel in 0:09:48.036 --> 0:09:50.876 one of these three domains, they might actually be excellent 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:53.556 in the other ones. I love that perspective. I think 0:09:53.596 --> 0:09:58.236 you're right that emotional empathy is so easy to access, 0:09:58.436 --> 0:10:01.636 it's so palpable. But I feel like there's all this 0:10:01.756 --> 0:10:04.436 talk these days about what are known as love language, 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:07.436 is the different ways that people communicate their affection and 0:10:07.476 --> 0:10:09.796 care for one another. Maybe we should be more open 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:15.076 to empathic languages, to understanding both ourselves and each other 0:10:15.516 --> 0:10:18.316 in terms of a profile, right, Yeah, And if you're 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:22.076 not a person who's very warm and fuzzy, you don't 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:25.596 always feel what other people feel, that doesn't mean you're unempathic, 0:10:25.636 --> 0:10:27.316 and you don't have to think of yourself that way. 0:10:27.836 --> 0:10:30.396 And this is a great idea from you, Maya. It 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:33.316 might be useful for us to each introspect a little 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:36.356 bit about who we are and then maybe even communicate that. Say, 0:10:36.436 --> 0:10:39.116 you know, my favorite way of empathizing with people is 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:41.876 to try to listen and understand, and I hope that's okay. 0:10:41.916 --> 0:10:45.916 You know, just bringing that into conversation could enrich our 0:10:45.956 --> 0:10:50.116 ability to connect with each other. So much. Yeah. Okay, 0:10:50.116 --> 0:10:53.036 so now we have a better understanding of what empathy is, 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:57.756 Jimial and I'm wondering why should we care about empathy? 0:10:57.796 --> 0:11:01.316 And I ask this in part because sometimes our minds 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:05.716 can be so overwhelmed by the empathic needs of just 0:11:06.156 --> 0:11:08.436 living on this planet, because there is so much suffering 0:11:08.476 --> 0:11:10.796 and distress, it's easy to just want to put a 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:12.636 lid on it sometimes and be like, you know what, 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:16.916 I'm over this, Like I cannot solve all the world's ills, 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:19.796 you know, of course. Yeah, I think that the reason 0:11:20.116 --> 0:11:23.716 that we should care about empathy is because it is 0:11:23.876 --> 0:11:27.396 at the root of who we are and how we flourish. 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:30.996 And that's true at basically every level you can think of. 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:33.236 I mean, I think it's probably one of the secrets 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:37.036 of our species success. You know, human beings not really 0:11:37.076 --> 0:11:39.156 that impressive. An animal, what do you think about it? Right, 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:42.876 We're just medium sized mammals, you know, not really that fast. 0:11:43.196 --> 0:11:45.516 We can't fly or swim very well, right, I mean, 0:11:45.516 --> 0:11:49.476 as solo creatures, we have no chance. What we are 0:11:49.596 --> 0:11:54.316 is a coalitional and hypersocial species, and so that means 0:11:54.356 --> 0:11:57.116 that it's important to understand, well, what is it that's 0:11:57.156 --> 0:12:00.316 in us. What did nature imbue us with that allows 0:12:00.396 --> 0:12:02.596 us to work together so well? And I would say 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:06.436 that one of the pillars of our ability to cooperate 0:12:06.796 --> 0:12:10.436 and to coordinate is our tendency to connect with one 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:15.076 another and to care for one another. Empathy basically benefits 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:17.876 almost everybody involved, including the people who feel it. You know, 0:12:17.876 --> 0:12:19.476 it's easy to think of empathy is something you do 0:12:19.556 --> 0:12:23.396 for other people, But people who report being empathic versus 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:27.636 less empathic tend to have deeper and more meaningful connections 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:31.436 to family and friends. And then, finally, I think empathy 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:35.916 is really critical to building community, to seeing people who 0:12:35.956 --> 0:12:39.516 are different from us free from the lens of stereotyping, prejudice, 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:44.036 and bias. To our ability for collective action, from making 0:12:44.076 --> 0:12:47.276 small sacrifices for the greater good. Really all the things 0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:50.956 that allow us to work together. Yeah, you know, on 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:54.596 this question of bias, researchers like Paul Bloom and others 0:12:54.596 --> 0:12:58.076 have pointed out that our empathy has design flaws, right, 0:12:58.316 --> 0:13:00.596 and so if we rely too much on our empathy 0:13:00.636 --> 0:13:03.476 to guide our decisions, it can carry some risks. So, 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:06.956 for example, we feel less empathy for people who are 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:09.676 from different cultures than we are, or who don't share 0:13:09.676 --> 0:13:12.596 our skin color, or we feel more empathy for people 0:13:12.636 --> 0:13:15.876 who are attractive or are right in front of us, right, 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:18.556 are approximate. Yeah, I think that's right. And you know, 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:22.156 Paul Bloom's book Against Empathy is well worth a read. 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:25.756 It's really provocative and interesting, and as you say, he 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:29.196 points out, hey, wait a minute, empathy doesn't always move 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:33.636 us towards justice. It doesn't always move us towards kindness equity, right, Yeah, 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:37.676 it moves us to care for people who were evolutionarily 0:13:37.756 --> 0:13:41.396 programmed to care for. I think that empathy, like every 0:13:41.396 --> 0:13:44.196 other part of our mind and our psychology, is built 0:13:44.236 --> 0:13:47.556 for an ancient world, one in which probably we are 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:51.276 just around our family members and community members, and it's 0:13:51.316 --> 0:13:54.876 hard to scale up experiences like empathy for the needs 0:13:54.876 --> 0:13:57.716 of the modern world, to help people who we will 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:00.596 never meet, who are thousands of miles away. Yeah, And 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:03.836 I think it's so important for us to recognize where 0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:06.036 these biases lie. Like you said, an empathy, but all 0:14:06.116 --> 0:14:08.836 spaces of behavioral science. I feel like in my entire career, 0:14:09.116 --> 0:14:11.356 whether I been a practitioner of this phase or an academic, 0:14:11.756 --> 0:14:15.636 I'm always looking at ways in which these more ancient 0:14:15.956 --> 0:14:19.156 intuitions can lead us astray. We want to be very 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:24.436 intentional about where we are directing our empathy spotlight. Right, 0:14:24.476 --> 0:14:26.796 You call empathy as spotlight, and we as humans have 0:14:26.796 --> 0:14:30.076 the ability to maybe direct that spotlight. Empathy is like 0:14:30.116 --> 0:14:33.956 a spotlight, and we are the ones pointing that spotlight, 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:38.516 and that we have agency. We have autonomy to align 0:14:38.956 --> 0:14:41.956 our emotional experiences with the people we want to be, 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:46.236 and when we're able to do that, empathy can supercharge 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:51.836 our values and morals by adding emotional weight to them. So, 0:14:52.076 --> 0:14:55.476 for instance, if you feel like you are more inclined 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:58.156 to empathize with people who look like you than people 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:00.836 who don't look like you, it's a great opportunity to 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:03.316 interact with people who don't look like you and learn 0:15:03.316 --> 0:15:07.236 more about them, or read their stories, or just become 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:11.276 familiar because it turns that that those experiences can reshape 0:15:11.316 --> 0:15:14.996 our empathy, broaden it, widen it in ways that are 0:15:15.156 --> 0:15:18.356 more appropriate for the morality that many of us have 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.636 these days. Yeah, it is very helpful for us to 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:24.116 understand the ways in which it can be biased, because 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.276 a lot of these empathetic responses are operating at a 0:15:27.316 --> 0:15:32.716 purely subconscious level. Right, we're not consciously deliberating over who 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:35.836 gets our empathy, and so does require some higher level 0:15:35.836 --> 0:15:38.876 cognition kicking in. Yeah, you can think of ourselves as 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:42.676 being on autopilot some vast majority of the time, and 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:45.836 sometimes we have to switch into manual and drive the 0:15:45.876 --> 0:15:48.516 car ourselves. And I think that's definitely true of empathy 0:15:48.556 --> 0:15:52.356 as well. Well said, so empathy can confer a lot 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:55.756 of benefits on an individual level, on a societal level, 0:15:56.156 --> 0:15:59.636 as you've just described, but you note that sadly, empathy 0:15:59.716 --> 0:16:04.636 has been steadily decreasing over time, and you've identified that 0:16:04.716 --> 0:16:08.036 there are some building blocks of empathy that are crucial 0:16:08.076 --> 0:16:12.196 for empathies revival, if you will, that are less available 0:16:12.276 --> 0:16:14.116 to us in present day than they used to be, 0:16:14.156 --> 0:16:16.596 and this might be responsible for some of the decline. 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:20.236 Do you mind sharing what those building blocks are? Yeah. 0:16:20.276 --> 0:16:23.436 I talk a lot about the world that empathy evolved in, right, 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:25.956 So if you think about the social world that we 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:28.476 had one hundred thousand years ago, it's just a lot 0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:31.236 different than where we are now. You know, people existed 0:16:31.236 --> 0:16:34.716 in small bands of hunter gatherers, maybe a few families 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:36.516 a piece, and what that meant is that if you 0:16:36.556 --> 0:16:39.196 interacted with somebody else, probably a bunch of things were true. 0:16:39.556 --> 0:16:42.716 You were really familiar to one another, maybe you were related. 0:16:43.356 --> 0:16:46.716 People were visible to one another. We could hear pain 0:16:46.796 --> 0:16:49.396 and pleasure in each other's voices, see it in each 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:54.036 other's faces, and we were accountable to one another. It 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:57.156 was clear who had acted kindly and cruelly, and we 0:16:57.156 --> 0:16:59.876 could take that history into account when we decide how 0:16:59.876 --> 0:17:02.036 we wanted to treat them. And I think of those 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:08.196 pieces of social life, visibility, familiarity, and accountability as kind 0:17:08.236 --> 0:17:12.476 of empathies, immortal soup packed with ingredients that make it 0:17:12.516 --> 0:17:15.436 easy and natural to connect with one another. But those 0:17:15.596 --> 0:17:18.476 ingredients have fallen out of the lives that we live 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:21.676 now more than ever. You know, even before the pandemic, 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:25.196 people were living in giant cities more than ever in 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:27.636 human history, and a loan, so we were sort of 0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:31.596 seeing more people than ever, but familiar with fewer of them. 0:17:31.636 --> 0:17:35.596 It's almost like people turned into obstacles instead of people. 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:39.916 We interact now more in anonymous ways, in transactional ways, 0:17:40.196 --> 0:17:43.956 and those types of human connections are really not great 0:17:43.996 --> 0:17:47.876 soil for empathy to grow in. Yeah, well, we're going 0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:51.796 to give listeners. Some hope now, Jamil, because the very 0:17:51.916 --> 0:17:55.076 hopeful message coming out of your book is that we 0:17:55.156 --> 0:18:00.356 are not doomed given modern barriers. Empathy is something that 0:18:00.396 --> 0:18:03.956 we can in fact increase with some effort. Yeah, you know, 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:08.476 I think that for a long time, scientists, philosophers and 0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:12.036 the rest of us have thought of empathy as a trait. 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:14.596 You either have it or you don't. It's just fixed. 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:16.796 And I ask people a lot, you know, to think 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:20.116 of the most empathic and least empathic person they've ever known. 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:23.156 And if I ask people, how did that individual get 0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:24.476 that way? They said, well, what do you mean? They 0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:26.756 didn't get that way. They were born that way, and 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:28.916 they were that way of their whole life. And I 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:32.236 think it's normal to see ourselves as fixed because we 0:18:32.276 --> 0:18:35.436 don't see ourselves changing, because we change slowly, and when 0:18:35.436 --> 0:18:38.196 something happens slowly, it's hard to see. It's also it's 0:18:38.236 --> 0:18:40.276 been true by the way of other parts of our mind. 0:18:40.596 --> 0:18:43.436 We used to think of intelligence as something that was fixed. 0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:46.516 We used to think of our personalities as totally fixed. 0:18:46.916 --> 0:18:49.596 But it turns out that people do change and we 0:18:49.676 --> 0:18:52.316 do move. In fact, the only thing that you can't 0:18:52.356 --> 0:18:56.956 do is stop changing evidence suggests that although some people 0:18:56.956 --> 0:19:00.756 are born more empathic than others, our experiences matter enormously, 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:04.356 and some experiences can cause our empathy to grow and 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:09.836 some can cause it to shrink and weaken. Ahead, Jamil 0:19:09.956 --> 0:19:14.036 gives us strategies to try and become more empathetic. We'll 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:16.396 be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 0:19:23.556 --> 0:19:26.756 So I'd love to talk about how it is that 0:19:26.796 --> 0:19:28.756 we can be more empathetic. Right, so you've built a 0:19:28.796 --> 0:19:33.636 strong case that, Okay, good news, folks. Empathy is more 0:19:33.676 --> 0:19:35.396 of a muscle than you think it is. It can 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:38.636 grow with hard work and perseverance and effort and understanding. 0:19:39.156 --> 0:19:41.556 Now let's get into some of the tactics. So you know, 0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:44.156 I'm listening to this podcast, I'm feeling motivated to be 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:46.996 my best empathetic self. I didn't want to say most empathetic, 0:19:47.036 --> 0:19:48.516 by the way, because we'll get to why that might 0:19:48.556 --> 0:19:51.276 be problematic language in a little bit. But I want 0:19:51.276 --> 0:19:53.516 to be my best empathetic self. So the version of 0:19:53.556 --> 0:19:57.196 Maya that helps people in the most impactful ways possible. 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:01.276 And one antagonist you say that gets in the way 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:05.636 of feeling empathy is our tendency to engage in what's 0:20:05.636 --> 0:20:09.596 called tribal thinking. So there are those people who are 0:20:09.596 --> 0:20:12.316 members of our group, and then there are those people 0:20:12.316 --> 0:20:15.076 who are not members of our group. And you say 0:20:15.116 --> 0:20:20.036 that having in us and them mentality can sap us 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:23.236 of our innate curiosity and our empathy for those who 0:20:23.236 --> 0:20:26.676 are not in our group. And so, given this, what 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:31.836 are some strategies we can use to resist tribal thinking? Yeah, 0:20:31.876 --> 0:20:35.636 I think it's a great question. Tribal thinking gets in 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:38.196 the way of empathy. It even does more than that. 0:20:38.276 --> 0:20:41.116 In some cases, if we think of ourselves as having 0:20:41.196 --> 0:20:44.556 an in group sort of us, and an outgroup them, 0:20:45.156 --> 0:20:47.476 we might empathize less with people who we think are 0:20:47.556 --> 0:20:50.676 different from us. But the real problem comes when those 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:54.276 groups come into conflict or competition with each other, because 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:57.516 then the outgroup, the people who are you know them, 0:20:58.116 --> 0:21:00.796 aren't just different from us, they're a direct threat to 0:21:00.876 --> 0:21:04.556 our community. And when you get into that situation, whatever 0:21:04.596 --> 0:21:07.796 happens that's good for them is bad for us, and 0:21:07.836 --> 0:21:10.916 whatever is bad for them is good for us. So 0:21:10.956 --> 0:21:13.436 you get not only a lack of empathy, you get 0:21:13.476 --> 0:21:16.516 what my friend Mina Chakara calls shod in Freuda and 0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:19.116 She's studied this a lot. This is kind of savoring 0:21:19.196 --> 0:21:22.756 other people's pain. I feel these days that a lot 0:21:22.796 --> 0:21:24.956 of Twitter has become sort of a shod In Freud 0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:27.676 a buffet at this point, you know, But you get 0:21:27.676 --> 0:21:30.956 this reversal of empathy, and I think that there are 0:21:30.996 --> 0:21:34.316 ways that we can overcome this. The first is to 0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:39.276 understand who's really out there. We often have gross misconceptions 0:21:39.316 --> 0:21:41.396 of what the other side is like. We think that 0:21:41.436 --> 0:21:44.916 they are way more extreme, way more threatening, way more 0:21:45.076 --> 0:21:50.076 violent than they really are. So learning and trying to 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:53.436 revive some curiosity about who's actually on the other side 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:58.116 is quite helpful in reducing that sense of threat. Relationships, 0:21:58.156 --> 0:22:01.436 in a way, are a key that can unlock our 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:05.636 openness not just to the people we connect with, but 0:22:05.676 --> 0:22:07.756 to people like them. And that's part of why it's 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:10.236 so important for any buddy who wants to build their 0:22:10.276 --> 0:22:13.836 empathy to try to foster these individual connections, because they 0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:17.476 go far beyond just the two people who might be 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:21.636 talking with one another. Yeah, and there's really interesting research 0:22:21.676 --> 0:22:24.476 corroborating what you've just said. Do you mind sharing some 0:22:24.556 --> 0:22:27.996 of the research in this area. Yeah. Absolutely. There's a 0:22:28.036 --> 0:22:31.956 study from almost twenty five years ago. That shows how 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:36.916 empathizing with an individual can unlock our care and understanding 0:22:36.956 --> 0:22:39.876 for an entire group. So in this study, people were 0:22:39.916 --> 0:22:42.916 asked to read the story of somebody named Julie who 0:22:43.676 --> 0:22:45.756 was suffering from AIDS, and I should say the study 0:22:45.876 --> 0:22:48.276 conduct in the nineteen nineties, when there is still more 0:22:48.356 --> 0:22:52.596 stigma than there is now around AIDS. Some of these people, 0:22:52.636 --> 0:22:55.236 in reading about Julie were asked to empathize with her, 0:22:55.596 --> 0:22:58.796 to really try to understand what she's going through and 0:22:58.916 --> 0:23:01.916 what this might be like for her. Other people, while 0:23:01.956 --> 0:23:05.196 reading her story were told just be objective and detached. 0:23:05.916 --> 0:23:09.716 Now the people were asked to empathize, empathized with Julie. 0:23:09.796 --> 0:23:13.196 No shock, they're really But what's more interesting is what 0:23:13.236 --> 0:23:15.876