Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. Hello everyone, My name is
Speaker 1: Taylor Chris. I am the executive producer of the Psychology Podcast,
Speaker 1: and today I'm thrilled to be conducting a guest interview
Speaker 1: focused on the topic of lawyer well being. Yes, today
Speaker 1: we are going to stay very practical discuss some actionable
Speaker 1: strategies that lawyers and really anyone can use to become happier,
Speaker 1: more resilient, and more fulfilled human beings. It's a topic
Speaker 1: that's near and dear to my heart and I'm excited
Speaker 1: to get started. I'm very happy to introduce you to
Speaker 1: today's guest, mister Dan Bowling. Dan is a law professor,
Speaker 1: a duke, a psychology researcher, a lawyer. He is the
Speaker 1: former senior vice president of the Coca Cola Company. He's
Speaker 1: a writer and my favorite. He's a self described beach bump.
Speaker 1: That makes two of us. Yeah, Dan, so happy to
Speaker 1: have you on the show today. How are you, my friend?
Speaker 1: I'm great, Taylor. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. It's such a pleasure. I'd love
Speaker 1: to dive right in. You know, Dan, maybe you can
Speaker 1: start us just by talking a little bit about your
Speaker 1: life's mission, or i'd save your work as it relates
Speaker 1: to positive psychology and lawyer well being. Thank you, Taylor.
Speaker 1: I ended up in this specialty almost I won't say
Speaker 1: by accident, but through a somewhat circuitous path when I
Speaker 1: was at Coca Cola. The last job I had there,
Speaker 1: after working my way up through the ranks, was head
Speaker 1: of global human Resources for the bottling units about eighty
Speaker 1: thousand people worldwide. And I became convinced during that period
Speaker 1: of time this would been the early part of this century,
Speaker 1: convinced the traits like optimism, abilities and skills, the collaborative skills,
Speaker 1: team building skills, positive emotions were the key of performance
Speaker 1: throughout the company in all jobs. That really wasn't study
Speaker 1: in business schools even a short ten fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: I was then found out there was a new science
Speaker 1: in psychology studying these issues and reaching some of the
Speaker 1: same conclusions that optimism, well being, positivity had wonderful benefits
Speaker 1: both in one's life and in the workplace. I applied
Speaker 1: to an Ivy League program, the Masters of Applied Positive
Speaker 1: Psychology program that I think many of your listeners are
Speaker 1: familiar with, and you are, and you're a proud graduator
Speaker 1: of Taylor and study this got my master's in positive psychology.
Speaker 1: And in the course of that study, being a lawyer,
Speaker 1: In being someone who had just started teaching in law school,
Speaker 1: I realized the statistics that lawyers are a fascinating topic
Speaker 1: for positive psychologists because apparently we're supposedly so unhappy but
Speaker 1: that still perform well, which doesn't doesn't apply in other
Speaker 1: domains of life. So I've spent i suppose my career
Speaker 1: now diving much deeper into those issues, both doing research
Speaker 1: on them, working with lawyers, coaching lawyers, teaching lawyers, and
Speaker 1: I'm delighted to be able to talk about it with
Speaker 1: your listeners today right on. We're really happy to hear
Speaker 1: about it, and thank you for sharing yourself with us. Dan.
Speaker 1: So now before we really dive into lawyer well being.
Speaker 1: I think it's probably important to start off with a
Speaker 1: little bit of information about what I might call like
Speaker 1: lawyer ill being or lawyer languishing, maybe for the sake
Speaker 1: of alliteration. You know, I'm so grateful that you're working
Speaker 1: in this area. Most of my best friends are actually lawyers,
Speaker 1: and I want them to be happy. It seems like
Speaker 1: that can be a little tough at times in law though,
Speaker 1: even just a quick search, there's some disheartening statistics out there. Lawyers,
Speaker 1: despite being some of the best paid professionals, and you know,
Speaker 1: they receive a great deal of admiration and press these
Speaker 1: for what they do, they seem to suffer disproportionately high
Speaker 1: levels of unhappiness and mental malady. I have a few
Speaker 1: stats that I wrote down here that I just found
Speaker 1: astounding to read off of here, We've got that lawyers
Speaker 1: suffer from depression at a rate that is three point
Speaker 1: six times higher than employed persons. More generally, nineteen percent
Speaker 1: of lawyers show symptoms of anxiety, twenty one percent of
Speaker 1: attorneys are problem drinkers, and fifty two percent of practicing
Speaker 1: lawyers describe themselves as dissatisfied. Disheartening numbers. You know, Dan,
Speaker 1: Why why it's now? And now you understand what drew
Speaker 1: me into the deep study of this issue. It's a
Speaker 1: real paradox. In most areas of life, wealth, power, challenging work,
Speaker 1: doing well for others correlates with very high levels of
Speaker 1: well being and happiness. What is it about lawyers that
Speaker 1: make us such an outlier? Right? And and as I
Speaker 1: go deeper in the question, I think we have to
Speaker 1: ask ourselves how much of that is really true? Uh?
Speaker 1: Let me let me back up for a minute. Do
Speaker 1: you you mentioned most of your good friends or lawyers?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you, Taylor, You're an outgoing, upbeat guy.
Speaker 1: And do you hang are all your friends? Do they
Speaker 1: meet the descriptive descriptions you just read me? Well, firstly,
Speaker 1: thank you for the compliments you've just made my day, Okay,
Speaker 1: And to your point, now, you know, I'd say that
Speaker 1: most of my lawyer friends are cheery, working, intelligent professionals
Speaker 1: that at times seem a little stressed because of the
Speaker 1: workload the many hours that they work. But most of
Speaker 1: them seem to be more than staying afloat so to speak.
Speaker 1: I know a few that seem very way down and
Speaker 1: are wishing to could detach themselves from their email box
Speaker 1: for at least a day. But yeah, the numbers seem
Speaker 1: rather catastrophic and apocalyptic in a way that I don't
Speaker 1: see represented at least amongst my friend group. That's one
Speaker 1: of the things that fascinated me and drew me so
Speaker 1: deeply into the topic again, that most of my friends
Speaker 1: are lawyers. Many of my relatives are lawyers. I hang
Speaker 1: out with lawyers. I like lawyers. Lawyers are smart, well educated,
Speaker 1: verbal people. They like to talk, they like to have
Speaker 1: a good time. I'm not dismissing that. I'm not dismissing
Speaker 1: the real struggle that many lawyers do engage upon. But
Speaker 1: I think to paint the law with as broad a
Speaker 1: brush as most of the commentators in the area do.
Speaker 1: And I do not deny the statistics. I mean, at
Speaker 1: least the studies you've cited. That is what the majority
Speaker 1: of studies show about lawyers being fairly socially and emotionally
Speaker 1: psychologically dysfunctional bunch as a whole. But there are very
Speaker 1: very many happy lawyers. What is it that they do different?
Speaker 1: That's what I try to communicate and study and look
Speaker 1: at as what choices do certain individuals who go into
Speaker 1: the law or law school do who thrive in it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have students. I have hundreds of students.
Speaker 1: I've had thousands of students over the eleven years i've
Speaker 1: taught at Duke. And I get to know my students.
Speaker 1: I'm an outgoing guy and I like and I like
Speaker 1: to go go out and see them and socialize with
Speaker 1: them out of classes. And I have many, many law
Speaker 1: students who love law school and do well. I have
Speaker 1: students who also are very down and get depressed. One
Speaker 1: way I think I like to think about it is
Speaker 1: are there a lot of legal professionals and lawyers who
Speaker 1: meet the definition of that we talked about before, who
Speaker 1: abuse substances, who are stressed, who are anxious, who have
Speaker 1: periods of depression. Absolutely? But I would ask are there
Speaker 1: many other professionals in other fields in the modern Western
Speaker 1: world who don't that? Are are there any that are
Speaker 1: exempt from these issues? I don't think so. So I
Speaker 1: hear that. I think I think lawyers. Lawyers are real
Speaker 1: people too, And if we looked at a Bell curve distribution,
Speaker 1: I think the law all your well being happiness distribution
Speaker 1: or lack thereof, is somewhat normalized even when compared with
Speaker 1: other highly educated professions with high performance standards throughout the
Speaker 1: Western world. Fair points. She's absolutely yeah. I'd be curious
Speaker 1: and I'd love to really move into some some great
Speaker 1: strategies that the audience, you know, like tomorrow kind of
Speaker 1: thing to explore it. Well. But what is it about
Speaker 1: being a lawyer in particular that you think might cause
Speaker 1: some of these mental woes? Here, here's what are the
Speaker 1: usual culprits, and we can we can break them into two.
Speaker 1: Uh A is the nature of the work and the
Speaker 1: way the work is structured the business of law uh B.
Speaker 1: And I this is a bit more controversial in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is the psychological makeup what traw do certain types you know.
Speaker 1: Seligment theore Martin Seligman uh the father of positive psychology,
Speaker 1: theorizes that pessimists are drawn to law in person. In
Speaker 1: persons with a pessimistic life outlook, I'm sure your listeners
Speaker 1: know tend to have a higher risk of depression and
Speaker 1: anxiety later in life. So let me talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about the business of law. And I think these
Speaker 1: are the more valid considerations. Law is. People are attracted
Speaker 1: the law originally almost is more of an art as
Speaker 1: a profession. They see themselves crafting, working and crafting novel
Speaker 1: theories to apply to different sets of facts, but once one.
Speaker 1: The practice of law today is a grind. One's time,
Speaker 1: for the most part, is kept in billable hours. Yes,
Speaker 1: the billable hour is a that's a dreaded way to
Speaker 1: live anybody's life. That's what I like about the beach
Speaker 1: bump part of my life. There are no billable hours
Speaker 1: on the beach, and they're tremendous demands on lawyers. I mean,
Speaker 1: typically for most of my students end up going for
Speaker 1: big law firms in the big cities coastal cities. Easily
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three hundred and twenty four one hundred hours
Speaker 1: a year are expected them in billable hours. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean checking your email, that doesn't mean going to lunch
Speaker 1: or taking a walk in the park. It means, you know,
Speaker 1: billable work. This is up about This is up almost
Speaker 1: fifty percent since I since I entered the profession thirty
Speaker 1: some years ago. So just the grind just really gets
Speaker 1: to people. A lot of lawyers too, who are graduating today.
Speaker 1: Most lawyers, those people of your generation look for a
Speaker 1: lot more than life than just sitting in an office
Speaker 1: grinding away. They're just going home to a non working spouse.
Speaker 1: I mean, life has changed. People want people want more
Speaker 1: balance in their life, and the law really isn't a
Speaker 1: place that's figured out how to offer that. I think
Speaker 1: business has a lot better, I mean a lot more.
Speaker 1: The corporate world has become the working world in general,
Speaker 1: to become much more flexible. Jobs are more portable, works
Speaker 1: more portable. Law is a quarter century behind these sort
Speaker 1: of developments, and that's one of the those are some
Speaker 1: of the business reasons. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean surveys from
Speaker 1: gallop or showing that the millennial generation, our value system
Speaker 1: is shifted so heavily. There's almost a chasm between us
Speaker 1: and generations prior in terms of our desires for work
Speaker 1: life balance and digital nomadgery has become the desired move
Speaker 1: for a lot of people my age. It's actually what
Speaker 1: I'm doing right now. Correct, Very good, very good. Well,
Speaker 1: So that's really insightful, and I appreciate hearing about that.
Speaker 1: I had interviewed a few of my friends who are lawyers,
Speaker 1: and that's a lot of what I was hearing was
Speaker 1: just that they had to be there for so many
Speaker 1: hours that they were a little bit of a slave
Speaker 1: to the idea of the billable hour, and the way
Speaker 1: that the system is structured essentially isn't something that you
Speaker 1: can fight at this point. I don't know many lawyers
Speaker 1: who are digital nomads or who get to set their
Speaker 1: own hours or decide to you know, knock off. Really
Speaker 1: it's usually that you're you're stuck there doing your work
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Well, you're stuck there if you want to,
Speaker 1: you know, move, get the brass ring in law, you know,
Speaker 1: being a partner in a law firm, or being able
Speaker 1: to go out and make your own law firm and
Speaker 1: own clients. Many people do opt out for a healthier
Speaker 1: lifestyle where and do become more digital, digitally nomadic. I
Speaker 1: know some here in Durham who are part time faculty
Speaker 1: who are also parts of law firm. But to achieve
Speaker 1: the highest wrongs of the laws, it's still show up
Speaker 1: and grind away. So I see that as all speaking too.
Speaker 1: Point one out of the two that you were making. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: we could talk to me about some of the psychological
Speaker 1: makeup points. Uh huh uh. And here's I differ from
Speaker 1: many of my colleagues in this regard, and have had
Speaker 1: healthy debates with some who work in the law your
Speaker 1: unhappiness industry. Yes, if there, if there is one first fall,
Speaker 1: my mentor and friend, your friend, Martin Seligman, I disagree
Speaker 1: with him. I do not think pessimists are drawn to
Speaker 1: go to law school. That is a common misconception based
Speaker 1: on a one study done years ago at one law
Speaker 1: school involving one small subset of students. My research at
Speaker 1: three or four different law schools actually showed that persons
Speaker 1: entering and plying law school have higher levels of hope
Speaker 1: and optimism than a generally educated US population. So, first
Speaker 1: of all, I do not think pessimists are drawn to
Speaker 1: law b I don't think pessimism is taught in law
Speaker 1: school or law. Yes. Are we trained to look for
Speaker 1: the worst thing that can happen? Yes? Does a good
Speaker 1: lawyer sit there? And if you ever have to talk
Speaker 1: to a lawyer, if a good lawyer isn't going to
Speaker 1: tell you, Taylor that sorry, your case is hopeless, there's
Speaker 1: nothing we do, You'll probably get the electric chair. And
Speaker 1: you said, look, it was just an open container, what
Speaker 1: what do you mean? No, we I think lawyers tend
Speaker 1: to be more prudent and should be prudent. But that's
Speaker 1: not the same thing as pessimists. I'm not sold based
Speaker 1: on my research and other research I've read that there's
Speaker 1: something in that draws some psychological deficiency that draws people
Speaker 1: to law. I don't think that's the case. I think again,
Speaker 1: when we talk about lawyers, we're talking about hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of people. We're talking about a representative sample of
Speaker 1: every type you can imagine in the human race. So
Speaker 1: that's fascinating for So, I actually gave a talk for
Speaker 1: the American Bar Association Continued Learning at the CLEE right
Speaker 1: not too long, friend, Martin Nisen, and oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: the topic that I chose was lawyer pessimism and uh
Speaker 1: and just everything i'd seen online, really, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: I saw a printing. Opinion was that if not the
Speaker 1: lawyers are pessimists and so they're drawn to law, then
Speaker 1: maybe law school inculcates the sort of pessimistic worldview by
Speaker 1: trying to teach lawyers to be quote unquote prudent, you
Speaker 1: know what with clients coming in and seeing your job
Speaker 1: to be on the lookout for potential threats on the horizon.
Speaker 1: It's helpful actually to think, well, everything's gonna go wrong
Speaker 1: in the worst possible way, and it's never going to
Speaker 1: get that event right. So in that sense, my understanding
Speaker 1: was that law school maybe trains people to be pessimistic
Speaker 1: because it's helpful in producing effective lawyers. I think you're
Speaker 1: onto something there, but let me kind of phrase it
Speaker 1: a little, let me frame it a little differently for you.
Speaker 1: Law school, particularly the first year model of law school.
Speaker 1: I don't think we train students to become pessimistic, but
Speaker 1: I do think if you could have a laboratory for
Speaker 1: inducing learned helplessness in a population, the first year of
Speaker 1: law school is perfect learned. Sorry, it is very rough though,
Speaker 1: my friends when they say it in law school, we're
Speaker 1: having a pretty rough time. It's perfect. It's really if
Speaker 1: we set out as psychologists, you and your listeners to
Speaker 1: design something that's going to depress a population, first year
Speaker 1: law school model would be a pretty a proxy for that.
Speaker 1: There's no feedback other than negative feedback in class, I
Speaker 1: mean the pressure to be at the top students or
Speaker 1: ranked top to bottom. There's virtually no collaboration. Everyone's thrown
Speaker 1: together at each other another one's success is another one's failing.
Speaker 1: There are no grades. There are no grades until after
Speaker 1: the semester's over. You get one grade in each course.
Speaker 1: So you could be the next Supreme Court You could
Speaker 1: be a Supreme Court justice in the future, or a
Speaker 1: block out, but you won't don't really know. This creates
Speaker 1: a sense of hopelessness, helplessness among many first year law
Speaker 1: students who I can see walking around the hallways in
Speaker 1: January and February. It's kind of said, very very different
Speaker 1: looks on faces than there were in August at the
Speaker 1: beginning of school. To the extent I think you said earlier,
Speaker 1: are we going to change big law? You know the
Speaker 1: of our podcast here, I don't. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to blow up the first
Speaker 1: year model totally either, although more people in my profession,
Speaker 1: more people are talking about it. Uh. You know, business schools,
Speaker 1: medical schools have really their models have become much more
Speaker 1: I think humane over the years. Again, I told I
Speaker 1: told my students just last week. I think if we
Speaker 1: look at the institutions of law and compare them to
Speaker 1: business and other professors and the professions, again, I think
Speaker 1: we are always about a couple of decades behind, but
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic that there there will be some changes there,
Speaker 1: some lawyer optimism. Right on, Oh, you've made me hundred,
Speaker 1: it's lunchtime on these coasts. That sounded great. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to sign up for Blue Apron.
Speaker 1: So we were talking about lawyer optimism and pessimism, basically
Speaker 1: covering some of the issues facing lawyers or why they might.
Speaker 1: Let me say one thing when I talk about my
Speaker 1: focus is on, say, the life above zero for lawyers,
Speaker 1: and what do happier lawyers and lawyers reporting well being
Speaker 1: do differently, and how I am not quick to embrace
Speaker 1: the notion that lawyers are as a group far more
Speaker 1: depressed anxious than others similarly situated educated professionals in the
Speaker 1: year twenty seventeen in the Western democracies. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of stress in the world these days. That does not
Speaker 1: discount the important work being done with those lawyers who
Speaker 1: are stressed and anxious, and there are many, and yet
Speaker 1: we have suicide has been an issue in our profession
Speaker 1: like others. There are many lawyers out there who are
Speaker 1: suffering and depressed. And so I'm not trying to be
Speaker 1: in any way dismissive of those. I mean, it's very
Speaker 1: easy for me to tell you and your listeners that
Speaker 1: well being surveys I've done on students over the years
Speaker 1: using the satisfaction with life scale shows students to basically
Speaker 1: be roughly around the same satisfaction with life scores around
Speaker 1: twenty four to twenty five. Is that US population, But
Speaker 1: there are those and for those at the bottom side
Speaker 1: of the scale, I think we have to have tremendous
Speaker 1: empathy and work with those individuals. And I do think
Speaker 1: by at least focusing on the issue, even if it's
Speaker 1: overstated a little bit, whether it is or is, it
Speaker 1: has made the bar associations and institutions and legal institutions
Speaker 1: more sensitive and more able to react and deal with
Speaker 1: these things. So it's a good thing. I'm very happy
Speaker 1: to hear that. Yeah. Absolutely, it's a wonderful reframe of
Speaker 1: the situation. You know, I feel like it's almost the
Speaker 1: socially acceptable punchline to say that, like lawyers are just
Speaker 1: depressed anxious alcoholics. It's it's not that simple, you know.
Speaker 1: That's that's upsetting to have the entire people distilled down
Speaker 1: to a caricature. Yeah, right, well, so, Dan, I'm loving
Speaker 1: our conversation. Got it. So, you know, we've covered a
Speaker 1: few of the reasons why there may be like a
Speaker 1: disproportionate level of unhappiness or unhealthy behaviors and the legal population.
Speaker 1: Let's turn and get super positive psychology on it. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: what might be some practical like try this out tomorrow
Speaker 1: sort of strategies that you would recommend or that you've
Speaker 1: seen work with your students to help lawyers. You know,
Speaker 1: what would we say, maybe become more mindful or use
Speaker 1: their character strengths, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I think
Speaker 1: you've hit on. You've answered the question, let's apply positive
Speaker 1: psychology to lawyers in the legal population. Earlier this week
Speaker 1: I was asked to give a talk to the student
Speaker 1: body here at Duke as a whole on this very issue.
Speaker 1: It was March twenty eighth was Lawyer Mental Health Day.
Speaker 1: This was last last week, and the point I tried
Speaker 1: to make is that what things do. We're not going
Speaker 1: to change big law here in the talk I gave
Speaker 1: or us on this podcast during the next few days
Speaker 1: or any ABA committee isn't going to change the way
Speaker 1: big law firms were, aren't going to aren't going to
Speaker 1: change first year model at law school today. A person
Speaker 1: who becomes a lawyer, you're going to have to deal
Speaker 1: with stress, anxiety, tough clients, and all the external factors
Speaker 1: that make can make law. You know, it's a tough
Speaker 1: it's a tough way to way to make a living.
Speaker 1: I get it. It's hard. But possibly lawyers can do
Speaker 1: something to change themselves, do something change themselves within that environment.
Speaker 1: And I like to think about it in terms of
Speaker 1: six or seven choices that person's entering the law or
Speaker 1: practicing law can make. And I think these work for everybody,
Speaker 1: not just just lawyers. And first of all, one has
Speaker 1: to understand and while I'm talking about choices, I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about those big capital see choices like do I
Speaker 1: get married, do I move? Do I take this job
Speaker 1: or that job? Do I go back to graduate school
Speaker 1: or not. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about little,
Speaker 1: everyday choices we make by the hour, almost maybe even more.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about small cognitive and behavioral strategies that all
Speaker 1: of us can adopt on an ongoing basis. Because truth
Speaker 1: be known, I think is the work of Sonya Lubmersky
Speaker 1: and others have shown you can choose a chunk of
Speaker 1: your own happiness. I mean a lot of happiness is
Speaker 1: if you think of a cake. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of people's propensity to well being is baked into their
Speaker 1: genetic cake, I mean biology. Does you know there are
Speaker 1: people who just are born with a little bit more
Speaker 1: springing their steps, so to speak, and there are other
Speaker 1: people who life seems a little more difficult as that
Speaker 1: goes on. But so some of this is just genetic,
Speaker 1: but we can affect at least a certain percentage of it.
Speaker 1: Some of it is life circumstances. But most people who
Speaker 1: study it surprisingly say what happens to you in life
Speaker 1: does not control your happiness or well being in life
Speaker 1: over time. You know that, you've heard of studies how
Speaker 1: lot of rewinners. You know, a couple of years later,
Speaker 1: many are broke or miserable. Again, there are there's plenty
Speaker 1: of evidence that people who suffer travere trauma in their
Speaker 1: lives go on to leave flourishing and fulfilled and happy lives.
Speaker 1: There's you know, there is hope in life even after
Speaker 1: bad things happening. So again, what choices are made in
Speaker 1: daily strategies? Do people do and one is choosing optimism,
Speaker 1: choosing an optimistic approach to life. In life situations, lots
Speaker 1: of good things attach themselves to optimism. Optimism is not
Speaker 1: the same thing as well being, but they're pretty close. Cousins.
Speaker 1: People do better generally. Optimistic people do better at work
Speaker 1: in life, in marriage, in relationships, getting things done in leadership.
Speaker 1: But I'm not talking about just thinking everything is going
Speaker 1: to be for the best, like the fictional character Pollyanna,
Speaker 1: everything will always turn out great. What I'm talking about
Speaker 1: and when people in positive psychology talk about optimistic optimism,
Speaker 1: we're talking about a realistic, fact based assessment of the future,
Speaker 1: but with a positive bias. A realistic fact based assessment
Speaker 1: of the future, but with a positive bias. You or
Speaker 1: I have no idea what the future holds one minute
Speaker 1: from now, a day from now, a week from now,
Speaker 1: how things are going to turn out, how a job
Speaker 1: is going to work out, how a challenge is going
Speaker 1: to resolve itself. Why not rather than convincing yourself that
Speaker 1: it's going to turn out poorly, like me, like like,
Speaker 1: which is instinctive for a lot of people that be
Speaker 1: realistic assess it but have a positive bias. If you
Speaker 1: have a choice. We only have fuzzy knowledge of the future.
Speaker 1: You might as well choose a positive approach. And this
Speaker 1: would sound of like an empty suggestion, choosing optim miss
Speaker 1: if we didn't know that optimism can be learned. That's
Speaker 1: a very new development, new in the sense of a
Speaker 1: quarter century in psychology. But optimism, to us, it's not easy,
Speaker 1: but optimistic thinking patterns and habits can be learned. And
Speaker 1: one of them is what I've just suggested. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean just this in and of itself has altered
Speaker 1: my life for the better drastically. Going going into the
Speaker 1: MAP program, we end up reading a book by doctor
Speaker 1: Martin Seligman called Learning Optimism, and it was an awakening
Speaker 1: for me where I came to have knowledge of what
Speaker 1: we call the negativity bias. You know, humans that survived
Speaker 1: to this point because our ancestors were the kinds of
Speaker 1: animals to think that that rustling in the bushes behind
Speaker 1: you was a saber tooth tiger instead of like instead
Speaker 1: of like a Pomeranian or something like that. So that
Speaker 1: that thinking that things are probably going to hurt you
Speaker 1: or harmful or scary, it helps keeps us alive. At
Speaker 1: least it did that in our environment that was very
Speaker 1: different from the one we're in now, And the issue
Speaker 1: is that that negativity bias in this modern world. It's
Speaker 1: not a saber tooth tiger anymore. It's my boss telling
Speaker 1: me I did a crappy job, and now I'm afraid
Speaker 1: I'm going to lose my job, and now I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to think that I suck and I'll never find another job,
Speaker 1: And you know, stopping and just realizing I was having
Speaker 1: these kinds of catastrophic thoughts and questioning their validity, just
Speaker 1: being like, that's not true, you know, and why am
Speaker 1: I thinking so negatively and then reconditioning my thought patterns
Speaker 1: towards a more optimistic explanatory style and the way that
Speaker 1: you've described as I mean, it's heads and tails. I
Speaker 1: feel like a different person. Amazing, It's it's it really works.
Speaker 1: And you just gave perfect examples of that and Learned
Speaker 1: Optimism a book you mentioned, Taylor, if your listeners want
Speaker 1: to read one book on well being to really get
Speaker 1: at the bottom bottom of it, Learned loptimm from Seligman
Speaker 1: is one to read that. Along with my academic papers,
Speaker 1: I need the hints and downloads for my I'll go
Speaker 1: like everything after this. If you go like that, Okay,
Speaker 1: thank thank you, But you know you and Taylor, you
Speaker 1: you perfectly set me up for the second point choice
Speaker 1: I think lawyers make, and that's choicing, choosing to keep perspective,
Speaker 1: and the best way to keep perspective on one's life
Speaker 1: is exactly what you set shutting up that negative voice
Speaker 1: in your head. You know what I'm talking about, the
Speaker 1: negative voice of your head telling your failure. You're fraud.
Speaker 1: You don't know what you're talking about. Uh this, nobody's
Speaker 1: listening to this. Back to evolution again. Uh, this is
Speaker 1: another carryover of the monster outside the door that's baked
Speaker 1: into our genes, our brain, our sub are conscious, our
Speaker 1: heads always telling this danger, danger, watch out, there's problems here.
Speaker 1: Things aren't going to work for you. Think of your
Speaker 1: own thought. We're constantly there's a dialogue running on in
Speaker 1: our head. And I tell you what, if there was
Speaker 1: some crazy radio announcers who parked in your head, or
Speaker 1: some cable news host of the opposite political party you're
Speaker 1: in who is just blabbing away NonStop in your head,
Speaker 1: you'd probably turn off the chant, turn the channel right
Speaker 1: or on your head five. Yeah, but we don't do
Speaker 1: that to ourselves. And I tell lawyers, you know, lawyers,
Speaker 1: you know lost You're trained to cross examine, cross examine
Speaker 1: your internal voice. Ask them is there evidence for that?
Speaker 1: You say, my boss is matter, I'm going to screw up? Really,
Speaker 1: what's the evidence? Do you have a foundation for that?
Speaker 1: Cross examine that negative voice in your head. Other ways
Speaker 1: to practice, you know, choices lawyers make in keeping perspective,
Speaker 1: Many engage in mindfulness techniques. I'm not going to spend
Speaker 1: much time on that, not being an expert, but I
Speaker 1: know you many of as a way to keep perspective
Speaker 1: and avoiding rumination. Live life through the front windshield, not
Speaker 1: the rear view mirror. Sounds kind of hockey, but that's
Speaker 1: how I really try to live my life. Focus on
Speaker 1: the future, not try to relive or refight battles that
Speaker 1: are already called a third choice. I think happy people
Speaker 1: make and happy lawyers makes, and you've alluded to it earlier.
Speaker 1: Just learning how to use one's strengths. What are your strengths?
Speaker 1: How do you use them? At work? Gravitate, particularly for lawyers,
Speaker 1: but any workers. Gravitate towards things that you're good at.
Speaker 1: And like doing. You're going to be at your best
Speaker 1: when you're using strengths, not constantly trying to fix problems
Speaker 1: with yourself if I tried to. I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff I can't do. I'm just not good
Speaker 1: at I don't like it doing spreadsheets, and I shouldn't
Speaker 1: go out and you know, become an investment banker stage.
Speaker 1: But I know my limitations and learning one's own limitations
Speaker 1: and focusing on one's strength is a choice people may
Speaker 1: absolutely I love that. You know, decades of research from
Speaker 1: DC and Ryan, some very well known researchers, they've suggested
Speaker 1: that humans have three fundamental psychological needs, and one of
Speaker 1: them is competence is just affect and feeling like we're
Speaker 1: good at what we do, that we can change the
Speaker 1: world a will, and that we're powerful creatures in our universe,
Speaker 1: so to speak. And I think character strengths has got
Speaker 1: to be one of the best ways to feel like
Speaker 1: you're you're living your best possible life, like you're showing
Speaker 1: up as your best possible self again. I do a
Speaker 1: lot of wonderful work with character strengths with some of
Speaker 1: my coaching clients. For those of you out there, who
Speaker 1: would be interested in exploring your own character strengths. You
Speaker 1: can go to the via I'll try. I don't know
Speaker 1: the website, so basically Google via thank you. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's via dog. There's a survey on there that you
Speaker 1: can and it'll tell you what some of your top
Speaker 1: strengths are. It's just it's a lot of fun to
Speaker 1: work around these things, say right. You can also find
Speaker 1: a copy of that survey at authentic happiness dot com,
Speaker 1: which is run through the up University of Pennsylvania computers
Speaker 1: where I do some work. So it's free and it's
Speaker 1: academically validated. It's it's great stuff. Yeah, it's interesting. You
Speaker 1: mentioned competence and self determination theory. Lawrence Krieger, a professor
Speaker 1: and researcher at Florida State University, about a year ago
Speaker 1: published to me, I think the most comprehensive and anyone
Speaker 1: can find online. Kreeger k R E I E G
Speaker 1: E R A survey a lawyer's and well being and
Speaker 1: what factors went into lawyers supporting higher levels of well
Speaker 1: being fifteen years into the job, and the number ones
Speaker 1: were around autonomy and competence, you know, self determination where
Speaker 1: the lawyers reporting highest levels loss of satisfaction were Uh,
Speaker 1: it was competence at doing one's job who even probably
Speaker 1: through accident, fell into their strengths. That is wonderful. I
Speaker 1: did not know about that. I've started working a little
Speaker 1: bit with some of my lawyer friends actually, and I'm
Speaker 1: doing as much research as I can in the area
Speaker 1: that that's hugely illuminating. I appreciate that, Dan, you are
Speaker 1: a repository of useful knowledge. Well, I think that's what
Speaker 1: they pay us for here academy. At least, at least
Speaker 1: have a little work acknowledge in the area. Get another choice.
Speaker 1: And this is everybody, This is true everywhere. But just
Speaker 1: stay active, keep moving again. Back to our biology. This
Speaker 1: is one place where our biology is good. We can
Speaker 1: make biology work with us and evolution work for us.
Speaker 1: Is that we're programmed for movement and play. We're programmed
Speaker 1: to play. I think that that is an issue in law,
Speaker 1: and particularly a culture of law people. You walk down
Speaker 1: the faculty hallway here, it's quiet in the ears, these
Speaker 1: doors closed, and people sitting with two or three screens
Speaker 1: on their desks and piles of paper, and we're all
Speaker 1: grinding away. And you know, I'd get up and walk
Speaker 1: around a lot. Everybody you know must think I'm some
Speaker 1: sort of crazy person. But inactivity kills. It kills the body,
Speaker 1: It kills the mind, that kills the spirit. Find waste,
Speaker 1: find ways to keep moving. Yeah, trial lawyers, trial lawyers,
Speaker 1: people who try a bunch of cases. My brothers one.
Speaker 1: This is speculation, but tend to I think in general,
Speaker 1: tend to report some more higher levels happiness something than
Speaker 1: just office lawyers. And I just wonder how much of
Speaker 1: it is. You're getting your moving around, you're changing locations,
Speaker 1: you're going from courtroom to courtroom, you're standing up here
Speaker 1: on your feet, work under incredible stress. But many or
Speaker 1: it's fairly happy people. I mean, i'd imagine a fair amount.
Speaker 1: It's probably my top one or two. Well being sort
Speaker 1: of closely guarded habits on a daily basis is to
Speaker 1: get to the gym. I start to slide a little
Speaker 1: deer otherwise, and it makes sense to you know, we're monkeys.
Speaker 1: We need to swing from trees. Precisely, we did not.
Speaker 1: We did not descend from cows grazing in a pastor.
Speaker 1: I love that. A couple of more, you know, and
Speaker 1: this is close to activity. But again, the more research
Speaker 1: more data. The more I look at populations and thousands
Speaker 1: of people over a long period of time. Humor, you know,
Speaker 1: people choosing to to laugh and play and having a
Speaker 1: sense of humor. I mean, I'm enjoying this conversation. I think,
Speaker 1: I hope you are. I hope your listeners are. But
Speaker 1: we're laughing. This is a serious topic that we're able
Speaker 1: to deal it with humor. Humors of virtue. Humor has
Speaker 1: been considered a virtue for thousands of years because and
Speaker 1: it's the way it can kind of tune up a group,
Speaker 1: like an orchestra tuns It creates bond it creates positive endorphins.
Speaker 1: Choosing to levity and laughing. You don't have to tell
Speaker 1: jokes if you don't know how to tell a joke,
Speaker 1: but just enjoy life while we're here. That's a wonderful recommendation.
Speaker 1: I love it. So it's funny. I guess like humans
Speaker 1: are really one of the only animals that laugh. It'stop
Speaker 1: to think about it. I've never seen my Pomeranians start laughing. Well,
Speaker 1: they wag their tail. They have their own ways, so
Speaker 1: but quickly choosing relationships, you know, the late Chris Peterson,
Speaker 1: the Great great personality psychologist and a person who I
Speaker 1: had the privilege to teach with one year in the
Speaker 1: Masters in Positive Psychology program at Penn would give talks
Speaker 1: around the world on happiness research, and invariably he would
Speaker 1: tell the story. Invariably a hand would go up say, well,
Speaker 1: what is the one key to happiness after this complex
Speaker 1: technical academic presentation, And his answer always was other people matter.
Speaker 1: Other people matter. It's relationships. Forming relationships with others is
Speaker 1: an absolute strategy that is very important. I try to
Speaker 1: talk to my law students about and lawyers I coach with,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes tough because law can be a zero
Speaker 1: sum game. I win, you lose. I mean, that's the way,
Speaker 1: as I said, the grading system works in the first year.
Speaker 1: That's the way much work in law does. So forming
Speaker 1: relationships and keeping relationship are extremely, extremely important. I know
Speaker 1: it to be one of the top predictors of overall
Speaker 1: well being. Or relationships are an essential aspect of the
Speaker 1: good life and a great strategy for someone who's trying
Speaker 1: to become a happier, healthier, more productive human being. Right
Speaker 1: right right, And and my final tip, and this is
Speaker 1: what I could I used to be kind of live
Speaker 1: about I almost hesitate when I discuss it with people.
Speaker 1: But it's choosing to look for meaning. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of evidence on Nate, particularly in the workplace, that persons
Speaker 1: who report their work as a calling are happier or
Speaker 1: higher levels of life satisfaction than those who just see
Speaker 1: it's a grind or a job and that and it,
Speaker 1: And it makes sense that it would be that way.
Speaker 1: I'm always hesitant to tell anyone, uh, still trying to
Speaker 1: make their way in the world, still trying to just
Speaker 1: find a job sometimes or a career, say oh, by
Speaker 1: the way, you need to go do this, this and this,
Speaker 1: and by the way, when you do find a job,
Speaker 1: make sure it's calling, or else you're going to be miserable. Right,
Speaker 1: that's a lot or make sure it's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1: I mean, if what I I'm not one of these
Speaker 1: graduations speakers that talks about you go find a life
Speaker 1: of meaning. They most graduating students want to just be
Speaker 1: able to find you know, how to get an apartment
Speaker 1: or get paid, rather than meaning. But all I can
Speaker 1: suggest on that is be aware of finding it meaning
Speaker 1: in life, think about meaning in life, continued looking for it.
Speaker 1: It's a lifelong journey. I've been in the workplace for
Speaker 1: over thirty years, work in academic space, and is my
Speaker 1: life meaningful? I think so, And I think this is
Speaker 1: a calling by a little I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: really for me to say, but I am aware that
Speaker 1: having a sense of meaning and a calling and doing
Speaker 1: things where wand is satisfying something more than just a
Speaker 1: need for a paycheck correlates very strongly with happiness and
Speaker 1: well being for lawyers and across all lives. Absolutely. I
Speaker 1: found that it's really hard to get some people to
Speaker 1: discuss meeting in a way so it feels a little
Speaker 1: high fludancer or like new age good puppy cock or
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, but really cool study from the
Speaker 1: Worton professor Adam Grant, who's also, i mean works pretty
Speaker 1: closely with the MAP program. Yep, jeez, I don't remember
Speaker 1: any of the details, but I'm hoping I won't butcher this.
Speaker 1: He conducted an experiment with telemarketers and it was the
Speaker 1: job of these telemarketers to cold call people and try
Speaker 1: and get donations to send kids to college. And so
Speaker 1: what he did was he brought some of those kids
Speaker 1: that got into college to speak to the telemarketers that
Speaker 1: help them go to school. Just for five minutes, like
Speaker 1: these people looked at each other in the eye, and
Speaker 1: these telemarketers got to see the positive difference they were
Speaker 1: making to these children. I mean, I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: hugely meaningful experience. But aside from an experience of meaning,
Speaker 1: they also tracking the numbers and donations they were getting.
Speaker 1: Found that the group of telemarketers that spoke to these children,
Speaker 1: their average donations per week went up by like three
Speaker 1: hundred dollars or something like that. It was, yeah, it
Speaker 1: was substantial. I think they were only getting maybe like
Speaker 1: one eighty or two hundred dollars a week, so to
Speaker 1: go to like five hundred is it's It's awesome. It's
Speaker 1: it's basically a performance enhancer even in the workplace and
Speaker 1: raising the bottom line, so you know, it doesn't need
Speaker 1: to be that financial success and prestige are divorced entirely
Speaker 1: from like of well being. And it's a really sort
Speaker 1: of a hardening message I think from that absolutely absolutely,
Speaker 1: and for people who are also want to dive deeper
Speaker 1: into kind of these existential topics and look more into meaning.
Speaker 1: We had an episode with Emily Esfahani Smith, who was
Speaker 1: my advisor actually on the capstone in the MAP program.
Speaker 1: I adore her. She's so great. A new book called
Speaker 1: The of Meaning and UH read it right, dud read
Speaker 1: it's wonderful book. Wonderful book. And one more episode I
Speaker 1: think it is actually been released last week with Roy Baumeister,
Speaker 1: who's a very social psychologist and a really cool guy
Speaker 1: and a guy who a brilliant man and a guy
Speaker 1: who likes to laugh is life. Yes, really, he's a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. I think that guy great, wonderful. Wow,
Speaker 1: I'm one thing before we close, uh, And I hesitate
Speaker 1: to start throwing a few names out there, but uh,
Speaker 1: because I'll forget a lot. But there are several lawyers
Speaker 1: who are also MAP graduates who are called to this
Speaker 1: field of study and work, and I think we all
Speaker 1: work come at it slightly differently, but but they're doing
Speaker 1: just great things. The ones. Anne Bradford who was was
Speaker 1: a part powerful UH partner in a global law firm
Speaker 1: and after MAP UH resigned and has devoted her life
Speaker 1: to study of lawyers and well being and actually leads
Speaker 1: an ABA committee that I'm a member of on lawyers
Speaker 1: and well being. So she's doing great work and maybe
Speaker 1: helping change bar standards to encourage more well being. You
Speaker 1: mentioned Martha Paula Davis Lack is a consultant and a
Speaker 1: speaker again a lawyer, and she works with lawyers and burnout.
Speaker 1: Dave Sharon is another one who works with lawyers. Sean Doyle,
Speaker 1: I could keep going, Jan Stanley, there's something about in
Speaker 1: the water map that makes those of us who are
Speaker 1: lawyers go out and decide to understand more about this
Speaker 1: and work with lawyers. That's wonderful. It's empowering to have
Speaker 1: all of you spearheading these great initiatives. It's I'm laughing
Speaker 1: right now just because I had one more question or
Speaker 1: two more than I want to ask really quickly. And
Speaker 1: it was Chelsea's part of surprise that I had reached
Speaker 1: out to Anne Bradford and to Martha Knudsen and ask
Speaker 1: them if they wanted to be a source for some
Speaker 1: questions for our boy Dan on air. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: you know, two of our assistant instructors from the Map
Speaker 1: program lawyers and wonderful people looking to improve lawyer well being.
Speaker 1: I have two questions here, if you've got time for it, sure,
Speaker 1: if I can answer them. They're very smart people, truly,
Speaker 1: very very hard Okay, here we go. If someone was
Speaker 1: trying to decide whether to go to law school, what
Speaker 1: advice would you give? Is it still a good idea
Speaker 1: as for post law school? Is it possible to be
Speaker 1: happy in big firms or should graduates avoid them? Any
Speaker 1: advice on what to ask on interviews? Is what it
Speaker 1: all says. That's a lot. Maybe we can that's a
Speaker 1: multi harder. Was that from both of them? Yeah? These
Speaker 1: are all from both of them. Yeah, and thank you Martha,
Speaker 1: and I know you you delighted in getting down here.
Speaker 1: So but they were both students of mine and the
Speaker 1: MAP program or listened. I love them both well. For call,
Speaker 1: I'd answered this if asking to go to law school,
Speaker 1: I get asked that a lot. I actually have a
Speaker 1: daughter working in New York. I love very much, who
Speaker 1: brilliant person who's sometimes asked me the same questions. And
Speaker 1: I think the answer is when I'm asked that, I said, well,
Speaker 1: why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do
Speaker 1: you want to go to law school? I mean, is
Speaker 1: it something to do for three years that you can
Speaker 1: borrow a lot of money and don't have to worry
Speaker 1: about another job. Is it? Are you going? And I'm
Speaker 1: talking about the people in general, I will ask this,
Speaker 1: are you doing it just because you think you're going
Speaker 1: to make a lot of money? Are you doing it
Speaker 1: just because you have no other idea what you're going
Speaker 1: to do with your law with your English degree? Or
Speaker 1: do you really kind of want to be a lawyer
Speaker 1: even if you can't articulate that what that is. That's
Speaker 1: how I felt coming out of college. I really wanted
Speaker 1: to be a lawyer. Again, what I knew of lawyers.
Speaker 1: I grew up in the civil rights there and in Mississippi,
Speaker 1: and what I knew of lawyers is what i'd see
Speaker 1: on TV or reading books, are and shows about putting
Speaker 1: the klan behind bars, you know, good lawyers. And that
Speaker 1: was very inspiring to me. So I had some If
Speaker 1: someone wants to be a lawyer and really be in
Speaker 1: position to afect lives, corporations, cases and make a difference,
Speaker 1: I say go to law school by all means. If
Speaker 1: it is a vague reason, don't do it. It's too hard,
Speaker 1: to expensive, too many years out of your life. As
Speaker 1: to the question, can happiness exist in big firms? Sure,
Speaker 1: but you're going to have to find it on your own.
Speaker 1: We're having a reunion here at the law school. Is
Speaker 1: not my class this weekend, so I'll go to some
Speaker 1: of the reunion activities. I'll see several students who are
Speaker 1: just two or three years out that I've been in
Speaker 1: some contact with, and they're loving practicing law and big firms.
Speaker 1: They're loving it. I have others who've called me and
Speaker 1: have left after six months, just absolutely miserable. So it
Speaker 1: depends on getting in the right situation, getting a situation
Speaker 1: where you can align your strengths with your work. It
Speaker 1: is possible. I would would I do it where I
Speaker 1: graduating today? I doubt it very seriously, and I wouldn't
Speaker 1: because I think I know myself well at this time.
Speaker 1: As for big firm, but it is certainly possible in
Speaker 1: a big firm to be happy. But again, know yourself,
Speaker 1: know yourself. I would say my students are about mixed.
Speaker 1: I'd say it's a mixed back on the students I'm advising.
Speaker 1: And what was the third part of their question? I
Speaker 1: think it was actually an eight part question. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it says any advice on what to ask during interviews?
Speaker 1: And I'm actually not totally sure what that means. Maybe
Speaker 1: I copied and pasted and because something offered does that
Speaker 1: have significance to someone in a legal background? But ask
Speaker 1: about strengths. What are your strengths? What are you most
Speaker 1: like doing? Where do you find flow? When do you
Speaker 1: feel yourself? What is your hobby? I mean, I well
Speaker 1: throughout my career, not just for law, but for any job.
Speaker 1: I want to know a lot about the person. What
Speaker 1: makes the person tick. I wasn't the type one to
Speaker 1: ask them to explain their theory on receivership in loan doctum.
Speaker 1: You know, during during interview, a lot of interviewers will
Speaker 1: probably most what but I would ask you know, particularly
Speaker 1: if you're thinking about it from a positive syche standpoint,
Speaker 1: at wellbeing standpoint, get to know the person. Ask about strengths. Great,
Speaker 1: I see how that ties all the way back into
Speaker 1: our beginning of our conversation and how you got interested
Speaker 1: in how traits like optimism, character strengths fuel productivity. Yep,
Speaker 1: you know. I have to thank you a thousand times
Speaker 1: for your time and your expertise and just your your
Speaker 1: jovial temperaments, dance or as a pleasure chat with you.
Speaker 1: Do you is there anything that you wanted to promote, Taylor,
Speaker 1: I would love to get to know some of your
Speaker 1: listeners today. You can find me on Facebook. That's Dan Bowling.
Speaker 1: There's another Dan Bowling, far younger and more handsome, who
Speaker 1: works at Amazon. And that's my son. That's not me,
Speaker 1: but Dan Bowling on Facebook sent me for a request,
Speaker 1: and I'll fringe you and love to post some of
Speaker 1: my articles there. And also on Twitter's an easy one.
Speaker 1: I post things there. It's at Bowling Dan Capital, b
Speaker 1: ow L I N G Capital d A N And
Speaker 1: finally on LinkedIn again Daniel Bowling or Daniel Bowling the third.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty easy to find and I would love to
Speaker 1: again get to know some of your listeners. Thanks for myself,
Speaker 1: I guess you know. I just moved to Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: so I'm setting up my private positive psychology coaching and
Speaker 1: consulting business. If you have any interest in the latest
Speaker 1: science of how to be healthier, wealthier, and more fulfilled,
Speaker 1: please reach out to me. You can go to my
Speaker 1: website Taylor christ dot com. My last name is k R.
Speaker 1: E I S. S. Or you can find me on
Speaker 1: Facebook do some writing, I do some talks around the area.
Speaker 1: And pretty cool. I you know, everyone listening, please enjoy
Speaker 1: your day er round. Thank you, Tyler, thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barrek Kaufman. I
Speaker 1: hope you found this episode just as thought per booking
Speaker 1: and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read
Speaker 1: the show notes for this episode or here past episodes,
Speaker 1: you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com