1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Summer camp. What's not to love? 2 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: You got a late to swim in trails, to hike marshmallows, 3 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: to roast around the campfire, swapping scary stories. But this 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: is not a scary campfire story. Three little girls ages eight, 5 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: nine and ten dragged from ten number seven, raped and murdered. 6 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 7 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and series X 8 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: one eleven. We follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series 9 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: The Girl Scout and Murders all week on Crime Stories. 10 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this. High school 11 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: students in Faith Philip's creative writing class launched a podcast 12 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: called forty year Old Justice. We wanted to speak with 13 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement about the crime scene and the investigation. But 14 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: over forty years later, many of the detectives and law 15 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: enforcement have passed away. So I posted about it on 16 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: my social media and a couple of days later, I 17 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: got contacted by this mysterious person in my direct messages, 18 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and this person said, if your students are looking into 19 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: the Girl Scout murders, there's someone you need to talk to. 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: Paul Smith, who was the sheriff of May's County in 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. He was elected after Pete Weaver left office. 22 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: He was ninety seven years old, living in a retirement home, 23 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: and he had some story he wanted to talk to 24 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: me about. Now I remember. The backdrop is that Jane 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: Hart was tried for the three rapes and murders of 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: the little girls, but was acquitted by a jury a 27 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of evidence that jury never heard. But now an 28 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: investigation into possible suspects. With me, you were just hearing 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: her voice. Faith Phillips, Cherokee, screenwriter and author of Now 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: I Lay Me Down. So you start a podcast on 31 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: this and you put it out there on social media 32 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: that you are really investigating the Girl Scout and martyrs. 33 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: What happens is then, Faith, it was really an unbelievable story. Honestly, 34 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: my students had actually done the research on the case 35 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: and put the podcast out in the community, and because 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: I have somewhat of a following of my books on 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: social media, it really caused a stir. And so I 38 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: received a direct message from someone who said, if your 39 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: students are looking into the Girl Scout murders, there's someone 40 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: you really need to speak with. And I found this 41 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: incredibly curious because I was familiar with the case, of course, 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: but I really didn't think that there was any new 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: information to be had out there. And I talked about 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: it with my husband and we both agreed, well, we 45 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: should at least go here this person out. And the 46 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: person was Paul Smith. He was ninety seven years old 47 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: in a retirement home, and I brought my computer, I 48 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: brought my laptop there and I just recorded his story, 49 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: which was one of the most extraordinary stories I've ever heard. 50 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: What was his story? The story he told me was 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: that when he took office in sheriff, he campaigned to 52 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: solve a girl Scout murders. And he told me that 53 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: in the course of that investigation, he went and interviewed 54 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: a man in prison who had been sent there for 55 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: exposing himself to children on the creek. And this man 56 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: was known in the community as a predator and a 57 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: torture of animals. And this man told Paul Smith that 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: he and two other people had been responsible for the murders, 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: that they had gone to the girl Scout camp on 60 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: the night of June twelfth, and that they attacked girls 61 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: inside the tent. So it was it was the startling 62 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: confession from a person who claimed to have been there 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: and been with two other people. Okay, I want to 64 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: pick apart what you just said. Yes with a fine tooth. Come. 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: So you get a message after you put it out 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: there about this podcast and that you want to reopen 67 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: the case and investigate it, telling you that you need 68 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: to go see this person in a retirement home. And 69 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: it turns out to be Paul Smith, the sheriff of 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: May's County in nineteen eighty and the sheriff tells you, 71 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: would you repeat that again? Very slowly faked phillips. Sure. 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: The sheriff tolds me that when he takes office in 73 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, in the course of his investigation of the 74 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: girl Scout murders, he goes to interview this man in 75 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: prison named Buddy Bristol. And Buddy Bristol is known in 76 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: the community as a sexual predator and a person who's 77 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: known to torture animal. He shot his own dog and 78 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: so he's just not a good person. And this man 79 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: confesses to Paul Smith that he was there on June twelfth, 80 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: in the early morning hours of June thirteenth, with two 81 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: other men, and that those were the three people who 82 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: attacked the girls in the tea. Well, I'm very curious. 83 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: So you got Buddy Bristol behind bars now confessing to 84 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: the murtyrs of the three little girls. Is that correct? 85 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: That's correct. It was a verbal confession to Paul Smith 86 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: after Paul Smith had visited him three or four times 87 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: behind bars. I'm curious. I know that the murders occurred 88 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: in June of nineteen seventy seven, right at the beginning 89 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: of Girl Scout camp season. And I know that Paul 90 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: Smith was a sheriff in nineteen eighty. Was he the 91 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,679 Speaker 1: sheriff in seventy seven? Paul Smith was not the sheriff 92 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven. Then Paul Smith was a police 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: officer in Locust Grove at the time of the murders, 94 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: and then he ran for sheriff in nineteen eighty. Let 95 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: me go out to doctor Shawn Robertson, joining US licensed 96 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: psychologist out of Edmund, Oklahoma. You can find Sean at 97 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: doctor Shawn Robertson dot com. He also does forensic evaluations 98 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary where Jean Leroy Heart was housed. 99 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Robertson, thank you for being with us doctor Robertson. 100 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying Buddy Brissell was telling the truth 101 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: or not. What I am saying is, when someone is 102 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: behind bars, have you ever seen the phenomena of them 103 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: confessing to things they didn't do or trying to enhance 104 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: a crime that they committed. I just I guess for 105 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: street cred. Oh. Absolutely, this is a This is an 106 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: area and emerging area of research in forensic psychology over 107 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: the past decade decade and a half, and that is 108 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: the phenomenon of false confessions. There are many, many known 109 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: false confessions, particularly in high profile cases you see like 110 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: the John Benet Ramsey case. Even going back to the twenties, 111 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: the Lendbergh baby kidnapping, people came out of the world 112 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: work to falsely confess. So anytime you hear a confession 113 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: of somebody, you've got a question. Well, particularly somebody in prison. 114 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean that might get him more time, that might 115 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: get him the death penalty. What benefits him in freely 116 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: providing this confession? Did he do it for notoriety? Did 117 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: he do it because he thought it would gain him something? 118 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: Was he coerced in some way? You know, without corroborating evidence, 119 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: you've really got to question that, and you got to 120 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: look at it, and they're behind bars, possibly for life, 121 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: already on another offense. Why volunteer this information? Do they 122 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: get better housing? Do they get moved out of their 123 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: GP general population sale somewhere else? Do they go back 124 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: and forth to court? Do they get pressed? What do 125 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: they what could they possibly get out of it? But 126 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: the reality is to k Fredus joining Us, the former 127 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: minority leader in the Oklahoma House of Representatives, an author 128 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma's most notorious crimes, knt Fredus. Maybe he was 129 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: confessing to yet any number of benefits, or maybe he 130 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: was telling the truth. What if anything corroborates Buddy Bristol's story, Well, 131 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: there quite a few things corroborate that someone other than 132 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: Hart was involved in it or was solely involved in it. 133 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: Earlier in the evening or in the night on the 134 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: night of the crime, a girl in another tenth saw 135 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: someone open the tent flap and look in and later 136 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: described that person as not being hard They're also, as 137 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: we've mentioned before, there were also evidenced at the at 138 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: the site of the crime that other people were there 139 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: in in the form of a bloody footprint. That was 140 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: not hard, a bootprint that was not hard, and a 141 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: fingerprint on the flashlight that was found there that was 142 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: not hard. But yet they were all involved in the crime. 143 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: Does any of that link back to Bristol? Not at 144 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: the time. I would also mention Nancy that I research 145 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: has shown that eyewitness testimony is highly unreliable, particularly a 146 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: child in the dark saying that that was not heart. 147 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: That's got to be questioned. And then and the other evidence, 148 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, was the crime scene walked into, was the 149 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: fingerprint identified as anybody else's or was it just a smudge. 150 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: I don't know that those things necessarily rule it out. 151 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: And I'd like to jump in here too and say 152 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: I agree. I had all of these same thoughts when 153 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: Paul told me this story. I found it interesting, but 154 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do with this information. I 155 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: wasn't sure if it was something that needed to go 156 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: to law enforcement. I felt like, and who knows, he 157 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: seemed like he was incredibly intelligent and all there for 158 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: a ninety seven year old, especially, but I did think, 159 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe we'll wait and just kind of 160 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: sit on this for a while. And then that's when 161 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: this interesting chain of event started happening that started to 162 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: verify a lot of the things that he had said. Okay, 163 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: well let's do that. What can you tell me any 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: independent eminence whatsoever? And that corrob Race Buddy Bristol's story. Well, 165 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: I got this information from Paul Smith. And then the 166 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: following week I met with a local who was fifteen 167 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: years old on at the time of the crime. And 168 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: this local told me that she was writing a book 169 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: about the Girl Scout murders. And so I said, well, 170 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: that's interesting because I just met with a gentleman last 171 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: week who had some information. His name is Paul Smith. 172 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: And she stopped me and she said, Paul Smith is 173 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: still alive. Let me tell you who who everybody in 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: the community has known that. She said, let me tell 175 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: you the names of people that people in this community 176 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: have been repeating for years. And I said, okay, I 177 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: didn't give her the names that Paul given me, and 178 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: she repeated the same names that Paul Smith had told me. Okay, 179 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm that No, the fact that somebody 180 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: told somebody told somebody in the community and I can't 181 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: find them. That is probably Buddy Bristol. I mean, it's nothing, nothing, 182 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. We're still in kind of an 183 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: uncertain We're still an uncertain territory. Yeah, he did it. 184 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: He's a per that ain't continent fate that will never 185 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: cut it. So is there any independent corroboration for his claim? 186 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: A day late and a dollar short. Now that everything's 187 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: winding down, he says, oh, yeah, I did it. Anything, Yes. 188 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: So then I went home to my husband that night, 189 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: A poured myself a glass of wine, and I said, 190 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: you know, this is really strange, these things that are happening. 191 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: And I got a text out of the blue, and 192 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: it was from this woman, Jennifer Morrison, and she had 193 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: just received a letter that a man had written on 194 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: his deathbed and he wrote those same three names as 195 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: being involved in the Girl Scout murders. And so at 196 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: this point, I have three different sources of information. I 197 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: didn't know if it was anything that could be acted upon, 198 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: but I did know as a responsible citizen that it 199 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: was my responsibility at that time to take this information 200 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: to law enforcement and let them run it down. Okay, 201 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: what if anything happened, I'm still giving the same thing. 202 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: I think he did it. He's the purv. So he 203 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: did it. That's not evidence. What if anything was uncovered 204 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: about Buddy Bristol. What's uncovered about Buddy Bristol, these three 205 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: different sources of information his pattern of behavior. When when 206 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: he was sentenced to prison, he had exposed himself to 207 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: little children playing on the creek less than a mile 208 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: from the site of Camp Scott, Okay. So that's the 209 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: same thing you told me to start with. Buddy Bristol 210 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: exposed himself to children playing in the creek. There's a 211 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: big leap going from being, you know, an exposure to 212 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: raith and murder of three children. That's there's a lot 213 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: of sex offenders to expose themselves, Doctor Robinson, You're right. 214 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: That's why I'm really trying to dig in and find 215 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: out what if anything corroborates the possibility Bristol is a 216 00:13:40,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: triple killer. Time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to 217 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: go to a special guest joining us right now. It's 218 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: Ross Swimmer, the former Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, 219 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: former Special Trustee for American Indians at the US Department 220 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: of the Interior. Ross, thank you so much for being 221 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: with us. Sure now, Ross, as I recall you were 222 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: the chief of the Cherokee Nation in nineteen seventy seven, 223 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: that's correct. Do you believe the Cherokee Nation tried to 224 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: protect gene Hart? Absolutely not. What did tried to do 225 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: was to provide make sure that he had a defense 226 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: available to him so that he could have an attorney. 227 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: But there was no effort on the tribes part to 228 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: do anything as far as the accusation. He was secured 229 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: in some location in the southeastern part of the Cherokee 230 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: Nation by some people before the trial that had nothing 231 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: to do with the Cherokee Nation as such. You know, 232 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: we were not informed in any way as far as 233 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: his location. But when he was brought to trial, I 234 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: wanted to be sure that he had an adequate defense. 235 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: It didn't seem you know, we talked about properating evidence. 236 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: It didn't seem like there was very much regarding heart either, 237 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: and that at least it needed to be challenged. Whatever 238 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: the cher Pete Weaver was going to present it. Nancy, Nancy, 239 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: can I cut in here? The police, This is herb Weaver. 240 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: Pete Son I was a school teacher and the coach 241 00:15:53,720 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: at Locust Grove. This horrible incident happened, and in defense 242 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: of the chief. He's correct that the tribe did not 243 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: try to protect him in any way. Excuse me, but 244 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: the citizens of Locust Grove, they were very protective of 245 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: Jane Hart. I had his son in class, and it 246 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: was to the point I was getting death threats. I mean, 247 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say seventy eighty percent of the community looked 248 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: at him as a football hero. And I'm confident that 249 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: the tribe itself did not try to protect him. They 250 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure he was getting a fair 251 00:16:54,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: tribe understood. And believe me, former principal Chief Jerokee Nation 252 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: Ross Swimmer does not need a defense of any type. 253 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: I have carefully researched everything he has said regarding this 254 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: in the past. Ross. What do you make of gene 255 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: Hart's acquittal, Well, it's hard to make anything of it 256 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: other than the jury simply didn't find evidence sufficient to convicting. 257 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: And but hearsay about it the trial was that some 258 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: evidence introduced appeared to be either made up or found 259 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: or wasn't wasn't appropriate, and that that had a big 260 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: influence on the jury. Let's go to James Powell on 261 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: that former senior agent with the Oklahoma Ure of investigation. 262 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: You can find him at the investigator LLC James. Thank 263 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know we keep hearing 264 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: about no evidence at trial, but there had to be 265 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: evidence to take the case to trial. Yes, ma'am, it was, 266 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: and of course May's kind of Sheriff's office. I don't 267 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: want to try to minimize all the effort they put 268 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: into trying to get this case resolved. They spent thousands 269 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: of hours on it. Most of the evidence that was 270 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: admitted that trial has already pretty much been well documented. 271 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot. Jeane was living about a mile 272 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: from the crime scene. He had previous convictions. I know 273 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: that the Sheriff's interested in him because he was a 274 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: sex offender and he'd escaped from the JAY. As far 275 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: as the actual evidence, there wasn't. I think you mentioned yesterday. 276 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: It was discussed yesterday. There was some blood evidence that 277 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: pointed to a Native American. There was some hairy evidence 278 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: which pointed to a Native Americans. As a forensics will 279 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: tell you receive as the stuff that we would have 280 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: to day. You got to remember this was back in 281 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: nine seventy seven. Yeah, you're right, an awful lot has 282 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: been learning since then. It sure has to. Joseph Scott Morgan, 283 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University and author of Blood Beneath 284 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott in nineteen eighty nine. 285 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if everyone's familiar with this, but DNA 286 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: was conducted to show three of the five probes taken 287 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: from the scene of them murders, from the girls bodies 288 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: and from the scene matched hearts DNA. DNA from one 289 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: and seventy seven hundred Native Americans would have obtained the 290 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: same results. Joe Scott Morgan, What if anything does that mean? Well, 291 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: it means that you're putting them in the ballpark. But 292 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: it's that the testing that was done back then, it's 293 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: not finally two, was not as finally tuned as it 294 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: is today exactly. And if that evidence was still viable, 295 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: if they still had some remnant of it, if it 296 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: wasn't destructive destructive what's called destructive testing, if they still 297 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: had some sample, there might be something that they could 298 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: go back into. Well, there's another lead, Joe Scott. It 299 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: has to do with a school bus. Take a listen. 300 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: I was sitting on the bench and father the Wilson 301 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: Cunningham sung and as I sat there, I saw these 302 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: big buses go through as soon Karen, a little girl 303 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: scouts following the bus, but it was the daughter super 304 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: being a dark one. There may have been somebody in 305 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: the back that I could not identify, and I'm not 306 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: even sure, but the two in front I recognize because 307 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: I had had problems with them before. I had arrusted 308 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: that driver a number of times. And to Faith Phillips 309 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: joining us Cherokee screenwriter and author, who was in the car? 310 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: That would be Buddy Bristol and one of our other 311 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: named suspects that I had obtained from these three different sources. 312 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: And the reason why that car is so crucial is 313 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: because the confession that Buddy provided said that after they 314 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: committed the crime, they put the murder weapons and bloody 315 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: clothes in this Dodge super Bee and they pushed it 316 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: off into the Grand River, which is just a couple 317 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: of miles south of where the crime occurred. So we 318 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: still just have this oral confession and we don't really 319 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: have any corroborating information. Well, was the Dodge Bay found. 320 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: The Dodge b has never been found, But in the 321 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: course of the investigation, we found out that after nineteen 322 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: seventy seven. That Dodge super Bee has never been tagged 323 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: again in the state of Oklahoma or the United States, 324 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: and it is never seen again by locals after that night, 325 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: which seemingly would confirm that it was sunk down a 326 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: river in a body of water. Guys, take a listen 327 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: to more. Buddy Bridge was a white Locust Grove resident 328 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: with a long rap sheet. According to locals, she was 329 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: known for stocking young girls and torturing animals. After repeated 330 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: visits to the prison to interview Buddy, Sheriff Paul Smith 331 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: gets something extraordinary, a verbal confession. They had been drinking 332 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: beer and doing rugs for three straight days. He said 333 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: they were a little money and they were thinking of 334 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: some white they could raise. The Caysian decided the chapperal 335 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: homes for those girls out there would probably be loaded 336 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: a bit of money. Bristol said. They waited tools sometime 337 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: after midnight, and so they hit the ten. They all 338 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: just hit the door at the same time. One had 339 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: a crow bar, one had a roofing hammer. When you 340 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: analyze a statement for veracity or truthfulness, you look at 341 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: richness of detail. Is there a lot of detail to 342 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: their story? Detail? They maybe could not make up or fabricate. 343 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: There's more and there's something very telling and what Buddy 344 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: Bristol allegedly said, listen. According to Paul's story, Bristol told 345 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: him that two of them entered the tent from the back. 346 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: One hit Laurie Farmer and one hit Michelle guzz but 347 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: Denise Milner bolted out the front of the tent and 348 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: the third person caught her as she was trying to 349 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: make a run for it, and she got out the door. 350 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: They had to go grab her, but she's the one 351 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: that they tied that Corerunrnee. Bristol told Paul that while 352 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: the other men sexually attacked the girls, Buddy himself claimed 353 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: not to have taken part. He said Laurie and Michelle 354 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: died quickly, but Denise remained alive. Then they took all 355 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: three girls, placed them in the road, and strangled Denise 356 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: where she lay. According to the confession, the three men 357 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: intended to dispose of the bodies elsewhere, some wanting them, 358 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: made a noise or an alarm, dropped them on and all. 359 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: But it's scir them. They dropped those girls. They got 360 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: in the super bee and one of the suspects was 361 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: given the job of going to dump the vehicle, the 362 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: murder weapons, and the bloody clothes, and that super Bee 363 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: was supposedly pushed into a river a few miles from 364 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: Camp Scott. Guys, I'm reeling right now, and I'll tell 365 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: you why, because a lot of what Buddy Bristol allegedly 366 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: said jives lines up with the forensic evidence. Well it does. 367 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: It was the autopsy showed that Denise Milner was strangled 368 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: while the other two were killed with a bload of 369 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: the head. So that's consistent. The other thing that is 370 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: consistent with this, and I've always questioned it, how could 371 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: one individual do this crime without having somebody discovered it. 372 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: When two or three people are doing the crime, they've 373 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: got control of all three of the girls. But for 374 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: Heart to have gone in there and be able to 375 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: do that, it was really strange that he didn't have 376 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: an accomplish to James Powell, former senior agent with Oklahoma 377 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: year of investigation at the Investigator LLC, James, there's no 378 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: telling how many defendants you have suspects that you have interrogated. 379 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: And there's one thing I've noticed over and over and 380 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: over in cases where there is a rape and a 381 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: murder very often. I mean, it's amazingly how often a 382 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: purple say, well, yeah, I shot her, but I didn't 383 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: rape her, Like it's better to have shot the victim 384 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: than to have raped the victim. And I've seen it 385 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: so many times that when Buddy Bristol allegedly says, oh, yeah, 386 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: I was there, and I was there when the girls 387 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: were murdered, but I didn't rape them, I am telling you, 388 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: James Powell, that actually has a ring of truth in it. 389 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: Oh yes, ma'am. It does. And I've found that that's 390 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: pretty consistent too with some of the cases that I've 391 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: worked where for whatever reason, a male suspect doesn't want 392 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: to be called a rapist, but I guess and their 393 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: warked way of thinking being a killer or a murder 394 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: sort of increases what we used to say. They're a 395 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: lot or those I think you pointed out their street creds. 396 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: I'll find that that's what wouldn't necessarily mean he wasn't 397 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: there just because he says he didn't participate in the rate. 398 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: You know, Jessica Morgan with me forensics expert, what he's 399 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: saying if he said this, and I have no reason 400 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: to disbelieve the sheriff that said it, Paul Smith. His 401 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: story lines up with how the little girl's bodies that 402 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: were found, and we heard from a camp counselor that 403 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: said she woke up and heard this sound and she 404 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: couldn't really identify it as she went and found the 405 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: girls there like they had just been left there. That 406 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: goes along with this account, so Scott the forensics, Yeah, 407 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: it does. And you know, we go back to this. 408 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: You know, we mentioned this footprint that didn't match up 409 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: with hearts as well, and that's kind of compelling for me. 410 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that I would 411 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: like to know because I heard that, you know, there 412 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: was some talk that the girls, the remaining girls that 413 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: were the campers, had been removed from the camp in 414 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: order to take them away from this area. And this happens, 415 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: and did happen quite a bit infamously, it happened in 416 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: the Terry Bower's case up in Pennsylvania. But my issue 417 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: is this, I would like to know how thoroughly that 418 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: scene was searched at that moment. Did they literally break 419 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: down every structure that was out there, take every pair 420 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: of shoes that were out there, in any shoes from 421 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: anybody that was associated with this event period, and even 422 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: as it applies to the police office that were out 423 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: there that may have left tracks behind, to faint Phillips 424 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: joining us who lost his reinvestigation. What do you make 425 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: Buddy Bristol's confession? What I make of it is that 426 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: this is information that really needs to be run down. 427 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: And that was really my intention, particularly after I got 428 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: the letter, as I thought, We've got to get this 429 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: to law enforcement professionals. I'm a writer, I'm just a 430 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: geek that sits in the dark and writes books. This 431 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: needs to go to someone who can actually take action 432 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: and make something happen. Joining us is Ross a Swimmer, 433 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: a former principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. Ross, what 434 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: do you make the girl Scout murders and what if 435 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: any impact that had or has on the Cherokee Nation. Well, 436 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: obviously it had an impact because of where it occurred. 437 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: It was in the heart of the Cherokee Nation, and 438 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: the accused was Cherokee, and that was mentioned several times, 439 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: so it was you know, something that's not common. We 440 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: don't think within within our tribe. This isn't something that's uh, 441 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: that's very common and in fact, even with the Heart 442 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: having been convicted of sex crime, it had nothing to 443 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: do with children. And the story going around that we 444 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: were main uh know something about was that at one 445 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: point Heart literally walked out of the jail. They didn't 446 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: try to escape. It just uh wasn't that big a 447 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: deal because it had something to do with his girlfriend. Oh, 448 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: I thought he was convicted of raping two pregnant women. 449 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: I haven't heard that, so it could be. I don't know, 450 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: but it was not children. And and I think there 451 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: was some kind of relationship with the women that had 452 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: accused him. I don't know anything about that. What about that, 453 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: Faith Phillips, That is something that I can't I can't 454 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: effectively speak on. That is a rumor that I had heard. 455 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: But the fact is that he did plead guilty to 456 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: the crime. Yeah, so we know that much. Well, are 457 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: there other alleged suspects? Time stories with Nancy Grace, with 458 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: me Herb Weaver or this is Sheriff Weaver's son her 459 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: How did all this affect you? Well, it was a 460 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: horrible event to start with. I ended up having to 461 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: quit my job as a teacher coach because I was 462 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: getting death threads. But why you Why would you get 463 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: a death threat because sheriff for you, Weaver was my 464 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: dad and all the community, most of the community was 465 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: behind Jean Hart, and so they looked at me as 466 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: an enemy. And I want them back up just a 467 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: minute on that prior conviction on the rape charges. To 468 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: my knowledge, there was no commitment between Hart and those 469 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: two ladies he raped at the Burgess River. My dad 470 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: told me that he picked them up at a bar 471 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: in Tulsa and took him out on the Burgess River 472 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: on four twelve and raped them, tied them up in 473 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: the same fashion that these little girls were tied in 474 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: a very and that is correct. He did not know 475 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: those women as far as my investigation had determined. They 476 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: were tied up and left and they were able to 477 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: get loose an escape, So it's not as if they 478 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: were just released or they were able to go or 479 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: immediately to the Sheriff's office. I think he had intended 480 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: on him to die out there, not only that they 481 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: were pregnant, tied up, left out there to die. And 482 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: even if he had known them, which no evidence supports, 483 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: that gossip, that makes it all worse. I don't see 484 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: oh he knew them. That's no defense. In my mind. 485 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: That makes it even worse. You were raping and terrorizing someone, 486 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, so that doesn't help anything. Yeah, I'm not 487 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: suggesting it was a defense. I'm questioning, does that crime 488 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: didn't have anything to do with children, regardless of where 489 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: women were pregnant or not. Yes, they were pregnant. Yes, 490 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: there were two of them. Yes, it is a sex offense. 491 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: And also the unique knot that was used to tie 492 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: these women up was the same knot used found in 493 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: the girl scout's tent. Now does that previous a killer? No, 494 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: it does not. It's piece of circumstantial evidence, but that's 495 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: not all the evidence. Take a listen to this. According 496 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: to the letter writer, one of Paul's suspects was a pedophile, 497 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: and it was witnessed a day or two before that, 498 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: talking and laughing that they had found a place that 499 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: they could station themselves near where the girls showered. In 500 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: addition to revealing that the suspects spied on the young 501 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: girls in the days prior to June twelfth, the letter 502 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: identified a fourth man with the group in the early 503 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: morning hours before the murders, who was also a known pedophile. Okay, 504 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: now that, in my mind is somewhat conflicting. Faith Phillips 505 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: in the first theory is that they were not interested 506 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: in sex little girls, that they were going to knock 507 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: the place off to try to find out if there 508 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: were valuables belonging to the counselors or anybody else they 509 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: could steal. Okay, now I'm hearing there were actually pedophiles 510 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: and been hanging around watching the girls go in and 511 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: out of the shower prior to June twelve. Wasn't June 512 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: twelve the first week of camp. It is very confusing, 513 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: and the facts are incredibly complicated, and I think that 514 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: helps to explain why this case has not officially been 515 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: closed for forty five years, because there's a lot of 516 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: conflicting evidence. Absolutely, faith, absolutely go ahead. When I heard 517 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: Paul Smith tell me, and Paul Smith is an Upstate 518 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: he was an incredible man, a military hero and a 519 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: servant of this nation, and so he absolutely deserved my respect. 520 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: But the one thing I really had a hard time 521 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: believing about the confession he told me came from Buddy. 522 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 1: Bristol was where he said we went there to rob 523 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: the camp counselors. Well, I don't believe that for a second. Yeah. Well, 524 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: and very often defendants try to cover up their desire 525 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: to rape children if they're pedophiles, and they'll come up 526 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: with something else. So I could see him saying, we 527 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: just went to rob and then whoop, so we raped 528 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: and murdered three little girls. Listen to more, I began 529 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: to see indications that married up with Paul's account that 530 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: multiple people had been involved in the murders. I read 531 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: about a vehicle that had been parked outside Camp Scott's 532 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: gate facing west with four people inside. That gate was 533 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: in such a remote area, why would anyone be parked 534 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: out there at night during a thunderstorm? I had read 535 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: where a camper reported that she saw several men late 536 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: that night gathered near the latrine, with at least one 537 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: of the men wearing military style boots otherwise known as 538 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: jungle boots. The camper heard them talking and hid in 539 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: her sleeping bag. Multiple people, including counselors and campers, reported 540 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: that they had been followed through the woods and that 541 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: they'd encountered strangers on the trails that should not have 542 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: been authorized to be there. Strangers on the trail that 543 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: were not authorized to be there and more. I walked 544 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: out to the truck and I set the files in 545 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: the backseat and I just lifted up the first file 546 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: on top, and it was one of the photos of 547 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: the little girls, and I just slammed it down. And 548 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: that's when I realized that there was much more in 549 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: this collection of files than I had any idea. When 550 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: I went through those files, I came across the most 551 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: difficult thing I've ever seen in my life. To you, 552 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: Faith Phillips explained to me what this picture a little 553 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: girl was and where you found it. Well, that's why 554 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: I think Herb Weaver is one of many heroes in 555 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: this story, because he had this box of files that 556 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: his father, Sheriff Weaver, had maintained all these years, and 557 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: he reached out to me through Jennifer Morrison and said 558 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: that he had some files. Well, Nancy, I just thought 559 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: that it was the actual trial transcripts, because for whatever reason, 560 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: in the state of Oklahoma, they aren't required to maintain 561 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: trial transcripts when the defendants acquitted, so I had not 562 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: been able to read the actual child transcripts. I thought 563 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: I was going to Herb's house to pick those up. 564 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: And I got there and when I opened them up, 565 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: what I found was the actual photographs of the little girls, 566 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: of their injuries, crime scene fatos of the little girls, 567 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: Herb Weaver joining us, Sheriff Weaver's son. Did you have 568 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: any idea everything that was in that box? No? I didn't. 569 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: My mother had always told me that it was the 570 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: transcript of the trial, and I thought that would be 571 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: good for Faith to have. I had never looked in 572 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: that box before, and the first recollection I had that 573 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: there were photos, handwritten notes from my dad came from 574 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: Faith after she opened it and looked at it and 575 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: in her fans, she told me to secure that box 576 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: and not let it get out into the public media. 577 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 1: One moment, one action, sending that box of old trial 578 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: notes and transcripts to Faith Phillips has changed the course 579 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: of this investigation. Are their other killers? And will there 580 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: ever be justice for three Girl Scouts? We follow the 581 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: very latest developments in the brand new Fox Nation series 582 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: The Girls Scout Murders here at Crime Stories all week tomorrow, 583 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: revealing family secrets come to light, plus a phone call 584 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 1: that changes everything. We wait as justice unfals. Nancy Grace 585 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: Crime Story signing off goodbye for