WEBVTT - "He's Weak": Tucker Carlson on How Trump Failed America 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:08.480 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.080 I've defended Republicans for thirty five years in public, and 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:14.880 then we wound up in a war with Iran that 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.560 has gravely hurt the United States. Trump has been disloyal, 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.320 totally disloyal to the United States. He cheated on the 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:21.640 United States with a foreign power. 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.920 Tucker Carlson on breaking with the leader he helped re elect. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.640 At the point that we're talking right now, President Trump, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.480 without Benjamin Netanyahu by his side, has said the ceasefire 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.840 is over and the United States in the last twenty 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.240 four hours has hit more than eighty Iranian targets. Isn't 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.640 the more honest and direct thing to do? Hold him 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:47.720 fully accountable for his actions. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.440 It's his fault. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.720 He's the US president and a huge part of the 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.280 job is resisting pressure from outside forces, and he didn't, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:55.160 So he's weak. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:02.560 From Bloomberg Weekend. This is the Mishal Husain Show. I'm Mishal Husain. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.840 What was envisaged as a short but overwhelming war against 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.640 Iran by the United States and Israel has turned out 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:22.120 five months on rather differently. Ceasefires have proved fragile Iran's 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.400 power over the Strait of Hormuz is still apparent, and 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.520 the war may yet have a significant political fallout in 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.760 the United States, a president who promised no more wars 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.520 has in fact repeatedly used force in his second term. 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.160 But it is the Iran war that has sparked a 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.080 spectacular fallout between Donald Trump and one of his most 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:51.760 prominent allies, the former Fox News host and conservative commentator 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:57.240 Tucker Carlson. He worked hard to get Donald Trump re elected. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.320 He was dismayed when the first strikes against Iran took 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.280 place last year. Then came the start of this war 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:10.760 in February, and at that point the Carlson Trump relationship imploded. 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.000 Since then, in episode after episode of The Tucker Carlson Show, 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.640 he has gone after what he's portrayed as a betrayal 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:24.120 of America first, and he's gained a larger audience along 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.639 the way. Episodes now get tens of millions of views 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:33.000 across social media and podcast platforms each time, and Tucker 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.320 Carlson has more than seventeen million followers on x He 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.239 has long been a polarizing figure, disliked on the left 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:46.240 from his bow tie wearing Fox News days. Now, though 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:51.080 he has lost friends and allies. That's partly because of 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.520 his rift with the Republican Party, but also because of 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:59.960 the way that he talks about Israel, amplifying narratives and stereotype. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.560 His critics say that cross the line into anti Semitism. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.919 Our conversation was recorded between London and Maine, where Tucker 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.239 Caulson lives, and we do go into some tough territory. 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.960 There are a number of responses and some extra information 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.040 that you'll hear at the end. In fact, for this 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.040 episode in particular, please do read my notes, which you'll 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.519 find at Bloomberg dot com forward slash Mitchell. That's where 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.600 you'll get a sense of why a question was asked 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.320 in a certain way, what might have been left out 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.720 of an answer, how I prepared, and indeed what I 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:43.120 read afterwards, the places where I've added context. So that's 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.720 the background, and here's how my conversation with Tucker Culson began. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.200 Thank you for talking to us. Oh, of course, you 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.560 know I was thinking about your home and Maine, because 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.240 I was reading the last bit of this book where 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.280 you'd you write quite emotionally about tiding up the house 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:03.840 at the end of the summer, and I was thinking 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.000 that you don't have to do that anymore, right because 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:07.600 you live there all year around. 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:12.200 Now, that's true, That's true. I'm grateful, Yeah, Tucker. 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.240 You know, in this conversation we are going to range 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.560 far and wide how you see the US, how you 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.200 see the rest of the world, especially the Middle East 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.960 right now, But before we do that, I really wanted 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.279 to understand your influences, because I think you're clearly in 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.400 the midst of a really intense time in your life 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.760 as well as in the news. Can we talk a 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.320 little bit about your father? First of all, of course, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.880 I was reading as I prepared for this, what you 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.960 and your brother wrote about him when he died last year, 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.160 and I was just struck by what an unusual life 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.359 he had, and obviously curious about how that influenced you. 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.640 A difficult start to life in many ways he had, well. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.920 It influenced us enormously. He had the most interesting life 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.920 of anyone I've known personally. He was born in orphan 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.800 grew up in an orphanage in foster care, then was adopted, 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.799 never finished high school, joined the Marine Corps, whent into journalism, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.800 started working for the government, traveled the world, knew everybody, 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:15.320 it was just a fascinating, self educated person, intensely curious, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:20.760 very smart, very honest, kind of swashbuckling, complicated, and just 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.120 a great guy. And my brother and I had the 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.360 privilege of growing up alone with him when we were little. 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.200 Our mother left when we were small, and my father 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.640 got custody because she wasn't there, and so we grew 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.839 up with them in this kind of eccentric not kind 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.479 of eccentric, extremely eccentric environment, but a happy and wholesome one. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.160 And for many years I really never told anybody other 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.520 than my wife about my childhood because it sounded so bad. 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.920 But it wasn't bad. It was great, and we really 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.360 sincerely enjoyed it. But it was not mainstream at all, 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.440 in the sense that my father never felt like he 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.800 had to believe something because everyone else believed it. 0:05:58.839 --> 0:05:59.960 He came to his own conclusion. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.880 He wasn't always right, but he was very often right, 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.320 and he was consistently more right than the majority of 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.480 public opinion in the United States. He was just an 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.400 independent thinker and very American in that way, and there's 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:13.520 so little of that left. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.440 And I also thought particularly internationally minded. He had seen 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.640 a lot in the sixties in the US, But then 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.840 you wrote that he was involved in intrigues around the 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.839 world in the last twenty five years of his life. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.680 He was, and I wrote that obituary on an airplane 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.400 the day after he died, and was sort of confused 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.160 about what he had been doing from the mid eighties 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.400 until he passed and was criticized widely. You know your 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.200 dad worked at the CIA. You must have known that, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.360 you know. I still am not exactly sure what he 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.240 was doing. He did work, apparently with various intel agencies. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:53.840 He was not an employee of CIA, ing I'm a 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.360 badge or anything like that, But I think you know, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.360 the American intelligence network is a global network, and they 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.640 work with all kinds of other countries intel agencies, and 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:09.679 it's not exactly clear very often where you know where 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.240 one starts in the next begins, and so it's not 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.560 easy in retrospect to piece together even what your own 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.080 father did for a living. 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.800 There's another part of what you said about him that 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.320 jumped out to me, which is that his motto was 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.240 who dares wins. You know people in the UK will 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.560 know that well as the as the SAS. But I 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:31.960 wondered if that has come to you in this period, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:37.920 because you have had a very public break with President 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.360 Trump with the Republican Party. At the same time, you've 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.800 seen a big increase in the reach of your show 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.200 since the Iran War began. Has that spurred you on 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.120 in given you more conviction that the path you're on 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:53.600 now is the right one? 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.840 No, you know, I've never been business minded. I mean, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.280 I was fired three and a half years ago. I 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.360 probably could have retired, so I'm not thinking about our ratings. 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.720 I've never thought about my ratings. Again, you don't have 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.200 to believe me, but it's just true. Ask anyone who's 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:12.560 worked for me. I don't even know what they are. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.080 I was in agony when I criticized Trump. I liked Trump, 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.320 I didn't want to and I endorse Trump and campaign 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.680 with Trump and spoke at the Republican National Convention. And 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.840 I've defended Republicans for thirty five years in public, and 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.640 I had zero interest in having a spat with them, 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.760 and so I felt driven to my positions. Trump allowed 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.520 the US government to be completely steered by this tiny 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.080 little country in the Middle East, Israel, to our great detriment, 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.719 and I watched it happen I was offended by it. 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.240 I argued against it directly to him. That had no 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.480 effect at all, and then we wound up in a 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.840 war with Iran that has gravely hurt the United States. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.120 And it was out of my frustration that I said that, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.880 but not some calculation that I'm going to get rich 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:57.120 or something by saying it. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:08:59.320 You know, that's just true. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.000 Yeah, I must be energizing to have a greater reach 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:04.320 right now than you did a few months ago. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:05.839 So I look at it different. 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.520 It's funny. I don't know that we do have a 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.960 I mean, I really don't know if that's true. But 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:14.920 from my perspective, you know, the year that preceded this war, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.000 I spent pretty I don't know tireless is the right word, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.120 but I mean I was very focused on preventing a 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.680 war with Iran and wrapping up the war between Russia 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.320 and Ukraine, which is also damaging the United States gravely 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.840 and Europe gravely. And from my perspective, I had no 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.160 effect at all, Like nothing I wanted to happen happened. 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.200 I had no power, I had no influence, and I 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.400 think I'd kind of talk myself into believing that I 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.440 could have some effect, and at the end I didn't. 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.440 And so that part of that was my vanity and 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.040 my silliness. And you know, men tend to think they're 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.440 more powerful than they really are, and I think that 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.760 happened to me to some extent. But I felt like 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.839 all of my efforts came to not and I didn't 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:01.520 like a winner. I felt like a loser. 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.120 At the point that we're talking right now, President Trump, 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.360 all by himself without Benjamin Netanyahu by his side, has 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.079 said the ceasefire is over and the United States in 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.200 the last twenty four hours has hit more than eighty 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:20.400 Iranian targets. So isn't the more honest and direct thing 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.800 to do hold him fully accountable for his actions as 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.280 the most powerful man in the world. 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.719 I don't think he's the most powerful man in the world. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.880 I have held him directly accountable. It's his fault. He's 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.720 the US president. He was elected. That's his job, and 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.520 a huge part of the job is resisting pressure from 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:45.160 outside forces. I mean, many presidents have, to varying degrees resisted, 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.920 you know, attempts to control them from outside, and he didn't. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.720 So he's weak. I'm not pretending otherwise, but. 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:59.120 It's also just a factually verifiable statement that Israel pushed 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.840 us into this and Trump allowed them to do that. 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.680 The Secretary of State himself said that on camera. So 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:07.800 this is not like a conspiracy theory, It's a fact 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.079 the United States is unwilling to or maybe unable. Who knows, 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.640 to restrain Israel. Like you know, I'm on the outside. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:16.839 I'm not talking to Trump anymore. I haven't spoken to 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.680 him since late February, so I don't really know. But 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.120 I have a news feed, so I know that we 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:27.280 did not restrain our ally and partner in this war, Israel, 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:28.880 and so of course it was never going to work. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.640 Okay. But it's one thing to seek to influence the 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.040 US president. Many countries have done that with greater or 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.080 lesser success over the years. It's another thing to look 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.800 at the elected leader of the world's only superpower, only 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:45.680 real superpower at this point, and say he is not 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:47.360 the most powerful man in the world. Are you really 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.440 saying that Netanyahu is a more powerful figure than Trump? 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.120 No, I don't, so who is the most powerful man 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.679 in the world. The United States is not the world's 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.000 only superpower. China has a larger economy didn't just lose 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.480 a war to Iran, So you know, who knows what 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.839 Chinese military strength actually amounts to. We are much less 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.800 powerful than a lot of us thought we were four 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.280 months ago, So we're not the only superpower at all, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.480 and that actually that assumption is part of the problem 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.160 that leads to hubris and overreach, and it's a very 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:24.080 familiar path. But you overstate your powers. I would say 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.120 that there are all kinds of forces in the world. 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.920 One of them is China. There's also the international business community. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:32.960 We have a globalized economy, so there's no such thing 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.120 as an American business or a British business or a 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.040 German business. You know, these are all interconnected, and global 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.880 capital is more powerful than any voting block in the 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:45.360 United States period. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.240 And Israel as a nation. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.120 I'm not just including the nine million people who live 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.200 in Israel, but also it's many agents in the United 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:55.400 States are enormously powerful because so much of the money 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.800 that funds campaigns in the United States comes with the 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:04.440 express per the intent of tying American foreign policy to 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.200 Israel's foreign policy. So like it's a complicated thing, but 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.520 the closer you look at it and I've looked pretty closely. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.360 The more you understand that the elected president of the 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.120 United States has power, for sure, but he does not 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:22.120 have sovereignty. He does not have unlimited power or full 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.960 freedom of motion to act on behalf of his voters. 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.440 He just doesn't. I mean, we're watching it now on 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:28.880 this and many other topics. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.360 We will come back to all of this. I want 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.240 to go back in time, though, to this remarkable ten 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.480 years President Trump came to power ten years ago. You 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.200 also got your primetime show on Fox News ten years 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.079 ago that made you a household name in the United States. 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.640 So tell me about twenty sixteen, because you wrote this 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.600 piece in Politico, which is also in this book at 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.600 the start of that year, in which you said that 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.400 Trump was not your ideal candidate for president, but that 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:04.120 he did have things to teach the Republican Party, amongst 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.839 them that the depth of anger on immigration and also 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.080 the fact that Washington really is corrupt, you said, and 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.920 you saw Trump as being someone who could address that 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.600 in some way. So tell me first about how you 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:19.000 saw him then and why you wrote that. 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:21.520 Well, I hate to sort of delve in my own 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.440 personal psychodramas because they're not that interesting, but it's they're 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.480 inextricable from the rise of Trump, because I was a 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.040 product of the system in Washington very much, and I 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.600 believed in the system, and the rise of Trump was 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.120 one of the reasons that I was forced to confront 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.040 the fact that the system was not serving the population 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.000 of the country that put it there, and was paying 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.480 for everything, and in whose name all these things were 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.880 being done. There was just too wide a disconnect between 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.720 what people wanted and what they were getting, really simple, 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.520 and I couldn't really see that, and Trump's rise forced 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.760 that question. And I just noticed that everyone around me, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.664 people I liked and respected, hated Trump and in an 0:14:59.664 --> 0:15:02.440 irrational way, and I didn't understand what the hate was about. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.320 And I understood ultimately what it was, which was he 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.440 was threatening them. He was threatening their hegemony over our 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.080 system like they were benefiting. The country was withering. They 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:15.880 didn't want a conversation about that, they didn't want to 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.400 change course, And in the end, I just took Trump's 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.360 side because I thought that he was an alternative to 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:29.440 this system that we had that had grown, you know, sclerotic, corrupt, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.160 whatever word you want to use. It wasn't working as intended, 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.200 and I was really upset about it. I mean, Trump 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.160 was running against not just the Democratic Party but the 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.120 Republican Party, and I thought we needed that, and so 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.560 that's why it was so heartbreaking. In fact, it was 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.680 almost paralyzing for me to see what happened in February 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:47.880 and you wake up and you realize this guy you 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.200 think is taking on both parties has joined the consensus 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.840 of those parties, the uniparty on economics and foreign policy, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.800 and like, wait a second, you know, if Trump can't 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.360 fix the system can't be fixed. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.720 That was really scary. It's still scary when I think 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:02.160 about it. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:06.160 You had, though, before twenty sixteen, seen him as a 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.160 difficult personal character. At one point you said he was 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.080 interesting but horrible, Right, Yeah. I think you didn't like 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.640 the showmanship, you didn't like the gold everywhere. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.280 No. I mean culturally it was always just a huge stretch. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:21.880 You know. 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.560 I just come from a culture that's so different, and 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.480 it was just beaten into me as a child. Don't 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.840 talk about yourself, don't brag about yourself, you know, never boast. 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.000 And here's a guy whose entire life, whose brand is 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:38.080 basically bragging, And that was difficult but I thought to myself, Okay, 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:39.920 you know, I don't like that. I don't have the 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.080 same taste, I don't have the same affectations. I don't 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.720 have the same instincts about a lot of things. But 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.200 this is a guy who's brave enough to take on 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.640 a system that really needs to be reformed and cannot 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:51.720 be reformed from within. 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:53.440 I still think that. 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:58.200 I'm just so shocked and disappointed that he joined the 0:16:58.240 --> 0:16:59.160 people he hated. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.080 You did have this extraordinary influence yourself, did you, even 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.919 in the first term, Because when you put someone on 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.280 your show, someone like Chris Rufo for example, talking about 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:14.040 critical race theory, within hours they could and he did 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:15.879 get a call from the White House saying come in 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:17.560 and talk to us, and he ended up drafting an 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.159 executive order. How did that feel? Because you must have 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.159 gained a sense of your own power through that. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.960 Well, I tried to ignore it. In fact, I don't 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:28.960 even remember that. To be totally honest with you, I 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.959 don't read about myself. The second you start thinking like 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.040 I'm in charge now, I'm an important person, that's when 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.879 your soul rots. And I just always wanted to remember that. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.479 In the not famous enough words of Conan O'Brien. In 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.760 the end, every grave goes unvisited, Like that's the perspective 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.680 that people need that you know, we do our best, 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.960 but in the end, nobody cares, and we're not in 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:51.760 charge of history. 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.240 We're not God, and so I. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.080 So anyway, No, I really fought against thinking, oh, you know, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.880 I have got a cable news show on some stupid 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.760 cable news network that takes prostate health and pillow ads, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.919 and so I would try to not think about that 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:07.199 at all. 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.800 I never visited the White House. I never went to 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.040 the movies or dinner there. 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:11.600 But he called you didn't he? 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.080 In the first Yeah, I talked to Trump all the time. 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.600 I mean, that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen to just anyone. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:18.960 Well, but I knew him. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:24.040 Trump called me before before he announced in twenty fifteen, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:24.760 I'll never forget it. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.320 I was in the car and he's like, I'm gonna 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:27.120 run for president. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:29.080 And I made fun of him because he did this 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.800 in two thousands, so twenty six years ago, he like 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.240 faked a presidential campaign to sell a book. 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.320 So I laughed and I said, oh, yeah. 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.000 You're gonna sell another book and he goes, no, Actually, 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.480 I think I'm gonna surprise you this time. And I 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.800 just want to be clear. Trump is one of the 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.760 most entertaining, charming, insightful people, fun to be with people 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.600 in the world. And anyone who's ever had dinner with 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.760 Trump can tell you. And I don't care how much 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.320 you hate him or dislike his policies or whatever. You 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.160 have dinner with Trump, You're gonna have a great time. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:02.440 So no, I always liked him, always, you know. But anyway, 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:03.520 I didn't expect this. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:09.360 So summer of twenty twenty five, when Israel began military 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.199 action against Iran and the US then joined in and 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.120 bombed the nuclear sites, you were clearly publicly upset about 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:21.919 what you called warmongers, but you did patch things up 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:22.760 with the president. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:23.400 Correct. 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.199 How did that happen? 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.480 I mean, it got so intense. So I don't work 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.320 for Trump. I've never obviously never worked for Trump. I'm 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.200 not in any business deals with anything related to Trump. 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.000 I don't I'm not beholden to Trump. So I always 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.000 tried to be honest. I wasn't always as direct with 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:42.760 him as I probably should have been, but on these 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:44.920 questions I was very direct, and I said, you're getting 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.399 led around by the nose by Israel. Everyone can see it. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.159 Nobody cares about the Iran nuclear program. There are a 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.320 lot of bad people with nuclear weapons. We don't want 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.800 more of them. But this is not about nuclear weapons. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.920 This is about sucking us into a regime change war 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.760 against Iran. Flat out told in that a bunch of times, 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:03.000 and he's like. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.480 No, no, no, that's not true. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.040 But it was true and it turned out to be 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.359 provably true now, so that was extremely upsetting to me. 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.199 So I was supposed to meet with him in the 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.119 White House. Israel bombed, We allowed them to bomb. We 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.520 paid for it. Of course, we paid for the missile 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.520 defense when the response came into Tel Aviv, like it 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.199 was our war with Israel prosecuting it for us. So 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.159 I was so mad that I didn't I was suppossed 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:30.320 to meet him with the White House. I didn't go, 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:32.840 And then he called me and we had this kind 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:37.159 of intense conversation, and I was very upset, and I 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.240 just said, look, it's demeaning for the United States, like 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.720 you're the president. I don't even hate Netanyahu. It's not 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.440 even about that. It's were the United States. We've got 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.400 three hundred and fifty million people. You cannot be led 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.080 around by a tiny country, Like what are you doing? 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.360 He really hated that. I said that because it's true. 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.439 It was true. It is humiliating. This whole thing is 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.719 humiliating to the United States and to me as an 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:00.640 American who his family's been here for hundreds of years. 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.520 It's outrageous. Anyway, and then. 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:07.680 He like said I was crazy. He gave some statement, 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.240 Tucker Carlson's crazy. Well, obviously I'm half crazy. 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:10.879