WEBVTT - The Right To Privacy And Encryption 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.480 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.760 this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.920 Market Disruptors podcast. Today, I'm sitting down with Rob Biglione, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.199 co founder and CEO of zen Labs, and we are 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:41.080 talking about their Privacy coin, privacy platform, and privacy overall, 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.440 the need for privacy. We're talking about what the US 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.839 government is talking about encryption, putting in backdoors, why privacy 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.400 is important, what that fight of encryption looks like, and 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.199 then we get into some other topics. Rob is a 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.280 pH d in economics, so we get into economics, Austrian economics, 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.560 and so much more. It's a great conversation with Rob, 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:02.240 and just go ahead and jump right into it. Hey, everyone, 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.119 welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast. Today, 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.679 I am joined by Rob Biglione. He is the CEO, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.680 co founder of zen Labs, Horizon Cryptocurrency, and he's got 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.760 a very good background before that as well. It's very interesting. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.959 We're gonna dive into UM but let's get into it. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.160 Welcome Rob Hey, thanks for having me appreciate it. Yes, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.320 we've got a couple of conversations in the past. It's 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.600 always a pleasure to talk. So thanks. Thanks for coming 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.280 back on UM. So I've got to know you pretty 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.560 good over the past. But for people that are listening 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.600 for the first time, why don't you give us your background, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.240 which I think is very interesting in kind of your 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.960 path into cryptocurrencies and what you're working on right now. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.160 Totally So at my background, Actually, I started my career 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.280 as a physicist and mathematician working UH with the military. 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.720 So I was an Air Force officer, worked in Air 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.200 Force Space commander, working on satellites and intelligence systems and 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.760 rockets that launch them up. And from there I went 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.920 into the more of the operational side of the intelligence 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.320 world and actually parked myself in Afghanistan for a couple 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.800 of years doing initially a counter i E ed mission. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.520 It was really quant a quant intel work, and then 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.240 started working with a bunch of different parts of the 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.680 military and a bunch of different missions over there UH, 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.280 and then from there I got lucky enough to have 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:18.840 the opportunity to go back to academia, so I left 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.320 that world, went back to from my PhD in financial economics, 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.880 and I had a very good departments that allowed me 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.880 to study bitcoin. I was studying asset pricing specifically, and 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.440 then they allowed me to actually look at bitcoin asset pricing, 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.120 so that was fun. Um. They hired me back as 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.520 an adjunct faculty member to teach bitcoin in boxing applications 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.120 and finance, and then I launched zen cash back into 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.680 the seventeen with my cocount row first Loose and we 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.480 ran that as an open um, you know, public boxing 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.520 system for a couple of years, and just recently in 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.560 this January, we launched an off shoot, basically a commercial 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.920 offshoot called Horizon Labs, which is really taking the base 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.320 protocol technology that we've created there and we can talk 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.320 about that, but bringing that to the commercial domain and 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.120 really just trying to get that next level exposure for 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.720 the tech and then the real economic use cases. So 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.960 um Horizons in which used to be zen cash, now 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.880 Horizon is a is a privacy coin right forked off 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.640 of z cash and z classic, etcetera. But you have 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.560 your privacy coin, and then you went on to become 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.959 more of a privacy protocol where you could build privacy 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.320 applications such as private messenger, private storage, etcetera. So it's 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.640 not what you're talking about taking that layer and putting 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.440 that out of Rising Labs. That's exactly right. So actually, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.680 to be specific, we're we're a few months away now 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.040 from releasing an alpha of our side chain protocol. So 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:45.800 the way that we're looking at this, and really the 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:51.360 that pivot from a privacy coin to a platform is 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.280 via side chain. So the way we look at it 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.280 is we want to create a hub and spoke sort 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.480 of model where you have a very stable, secure main 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.120 chain and then you have all the applications of the 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.120 logic and business logic and anything that you want to 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.480 do bespoke, um, you can do on a side chain, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:06.960 and you can have your own side chains. You can 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.839 have any number of side chains. Really that that part 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.200 is not really bounded um and then it doesn't the 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.320 stuff that happens on the sessions doesn't necessarily clog up 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.479 the main chain. All that goes to the main chain 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.520 is basically the security feature. In the fact that's consensus 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:23.680 on the side chains the met So this is our 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.640 our solution for skillability basically and really where I think 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.400 we will be industry leaders once we're release this because 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.839 it's a truly unfederated side chain system. And when we 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.839 talk about philosophy and you know, what we're doing later 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.080 in the show, we can talk about that, but I 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.280 think it's really important to be truly decentralized. And the 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.880 side chaine systems on the market to date have been centralized, 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.600 so those where you have to rely on trusted nodes 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:54.000 or trusted certifiers. Ours is truly decentralized, one where the 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:55.800 main chain doesn't even have to know what happens in 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.880 the side chain. No one approves or you know, authorizes 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.560 of the side chain to exist. It's just any aptive 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.200 offering and take our toolkit, launce there on blockchain is 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:05.960 the horizon side chain, and do whatever they want on 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.680 that chain and still retain the security properties of you know, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.480 our public architecture. Interesting, so a lot of times we'll see, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.279 like with Lightning for example, as a side chain of Bitcoin, 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.480 Lightning is more centralized and solutely yeah less, it's less 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.280 it's you know, it's less secure than the decentralized main chain. Um. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.920 So typically I think of side chains is less less secure, right, Uh, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.440 but you're saying there's a way that you guys can 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.480 keep a side chain but still keep its security or decentralization. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.720 There absolutely like massively secure. So we're actually using an 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:40.000 interesting recursive snark technique for security and leveraging our thirty 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:44.239 thousand nodes basically are are super and secure notes system. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.520 They have close to a third about thirty thousand nodes 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.719 right now like full nodes operating in the network, and 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.320 they will be basically a competitive marketplace for them to 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.599 be certifying nodes. So you'll have a massive note network 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.840 where basically, um, you know, all of these notes will 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.039 have the opportunity to act certifiers or forgers on on 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.280 the side chains and also actively hunting and sent to 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.200 byst the hunt for fraud uh and uncover fraud. So 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.080 it's actually extremely secure system. That's that's nice hybrid public 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.919 private architecture. Yeah. I remember you guys had suffered an attack, 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.159 um that you caught pretty quickly and you got really 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:20.680 in front of which I really thought that the way 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.839 you handled that was good, um, and you made some 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.120 updates to the system, so um, I believe if incorrect, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.720 me if I'm wrong. But after that you had updated 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.120 system and even changed the way maybe the consensus work 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.600 so that even though um, your chain might be, let's 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.559 have less value than the Bitcoin main chain, it doesn't 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.320 make it easier to attack. That's exactly right. Yeah, So 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.240 what we did was we modified the macomotive consensus. So 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.680 instead of just being um, you know, I'll say, naively, 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.160 just the longest chain role you know, the most the 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.719 most proof of work, um, you know, dictating which which 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.560 branch of a chain gets to be the valid one, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.599 we added a second check which basically provides a delayed 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.000 block penalty. So that so the attack vector for this 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.400 fift one percent attack thing is basically you would have 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.760 a neferious actor mining privately and then all of a 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.400 sudden dumping all of these box of devine privately into 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.200 the network and scooping the network into thinking that it 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.480 has the most accumulated pro for work, and then they 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.520 can execute double spends. And this happened to us. We 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.920 had a few double spends that were executed or basically, um, 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:23.480 you know, a hacker or whatever you wanna call this 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.160 type of criminal stole a few hundred thous dollars from 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.760 an exchange it lists that. Um. So it was a 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.720 terrible event, but not catastrophic. What it did was it 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.320 really kicked us into gear to try to solve this 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.000 problem for the industry and for us of course, so 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.200 we added this second check. So it's really a two 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.800 checks type of consensus. Now it makes us much more robust. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.640 If you know, without it, then we are without it. Um. Now. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.600 Not not to say like bitcoin is massively secure because 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.880 it has a ridiculous amount of per for work on there. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.960 We have a miniscule amount of work, but our penalty function, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.720 we can actually modulate that to be as escalated quickly 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:01.800 be on it to be and right now it's you know, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:03.800 it seems to be more than sufficient to protect us. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.760 Yeah that's good now. UM. I know, with new technologies 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.480 we can't really envision the future because they give us 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.000 new platforms to build new things off of. We can't imagine, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.560 but um, as best as we can. What do you 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.040 see being done on these side changes at least now 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.240 or in the near future. Yeah, I mean, so there 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.560 there's a ton and actually are we we have a 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.920 go to market strategy we have a great strategy marketing 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.360 bad team, and they've already been carving out projects with 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.320 select design partners. So basically, right out of the gate, 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.480 once our alpha's released, you're gonna hear an announcement for 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.600 some key companies and projects that we're working on. Two 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.760 showcase the technology. So for instance, one of them is 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.240 a large digital invoicing company in Latin America looking at 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:51.920 um integrating cryptocurrency payments, looking to do things like factoring marketplaces. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.920 So if their clients have receivables or payables these notes, 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.240 they can actually digitize them, you know, standardize them, make 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.600 them transparent, and put them into an auction marketplace environment. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.680 So that's something we're looking at. By by doing that 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.120 side chain, they have their own token exactly, so they 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.120 have the token their own system. So basically, if if 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.040 their system becomes massively popular, it's theirs. They control it. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:18.840 And then importantly, we provide our software developer toolkit provides 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.600 a basically a reference blockchain model and a whole bunch 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.200 of tools, but they can modify the consensus and at 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.480 any type of transaction type they want from there to 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.040 really make it very bespoken configurable to their needs. Okay, yeah, 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.840 so so that that's one of them. Um. So also 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.360 there's another projects looking at a factory marketplace seems to 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.480 be a pretty hot topic, and another auction environment looking 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.880 at a tokenization platform, looking at working with one of 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.719 the main maintainers for a version of hyper Ledger that 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.920 has an e v M UH and seeing if maybe 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.880 we can put in UH an e v M variant 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.520 of hyper Ledger running as a Horizon side chain. So 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.840 it just shows you the generalizability of it as long 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.840 as UM an a v M an Ethereum virtual machine, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.720 so exactly right, So an Etherium virtual machine as a 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.040 side chain on the Horizon main chain exactly. And in 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.439 that sense, it means that any smart contract that was 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.880 written on Ethereum would be compatible to basically just kind 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.000 of ported over to work with US. Now wouldn't interact 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.920 with the you know, the Ethereum chain, but you're basically 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.040 replicating the same type of you know, infrastructure that then 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:26.079 they can build on us as an alternative. Okay, yeah, okay. Interesting. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.920 Um So you know when we talk about like bass 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.559 layers and then we add chains and layers and side 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.880 chains and all these different things on there, Um I 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:39.160 mean that's kind of how things scale. Um, what about like, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.480 um using like side chain or some sort of like 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.080 horizon side chain to like add like a a privacy 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.520 layer on top of a bitcoin, like a side chain 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.439 of bitcoin. There's some sort of like interoperability like that. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.200 That's interesting. That's a really interesting question. We honestly have 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.320 not thought about that. So that's that's something to consider. Yeah, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.559 I mean it's you know, there's a whole bunch of 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.520 other stuff. What I like about the side chain model 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.880 is you can experiment with any type of system as 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.160 a side chain, and rather than the launster room blockchain 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.400 and figure out how you do this big big launching 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.400 and convince people to run your software, you can just 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.560 do it a small experiment on the side chain. Modify 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.319 the you know, the privacy features, modify the applications you 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:25.360 running their, modify consensus. Uh. It's an excellent experimental environment. Yeah. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.880 You could almost like, uh, you know, I don't know, 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.480 maybe wrap wrap the wrap the bitcoin with us in 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.520 privacy coin and then uh and then add like a 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.000 privacy layer on top of the bitcoin network or something 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.920 like that. UM, I don't know, I've I often just 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.080 thought about like you know, obviously bitcoin is missing a 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.880 huge piece of that of privacy. It's a it's a 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.560 it's a big glaring hole that maybe they'll get to 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.680 at some point. But then there's a good solutions like 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.480 like uh like Horizon and I just wondered about that, 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.360 But I'm not I'm not the guy to figure that 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.840 out by any means. Uh, But I definitely understand that 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.720 the need for privacy. You know, from your background, you 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.160 were in the military, and I think you were working 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.760 on some sort of like encryption stuff there or some 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.960 sort of reconnaissance intelligence or something. Yeah, I mean definitely 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:14.760 encrypted systems, but really from the intelligence satellite perspective. Okay, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.520 So but encryption, and so you understand you understand kind 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.480 of the need for that. Um, what do you think 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.480 about the need for privacy and the maybe the war 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.679 on privacy that we have today. I think maybe specifically 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:34.040 about um, you know, them calling for an end to encryption, right, 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.480 I mean, so trying to stay above the line with 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:42.560 the thinking is I I I've seen you know, the 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.560 downsides of um, you know, or I guess said, there's 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.400 a downside to people being able to hide and obfuscate, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.840 you know, bad behavior, right, we all know that no 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.480 one's trying to argue against that. I think you would 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:00.080 be a big shame though, if regulators, um didn't I 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.800 take the time to understand what we're doing and all 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.120 of the social and economic good and value that comes 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.920 with actually allowing people, uh, you know, privacy, which is 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.360 kind of a shame or philosophically weird to say, allow 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.400 people to have privacy, because I think we have a 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:14.640 right to it to begin with, right, Um, So I 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.520 guess my my persecative is there are bad people out there, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.040 and bad people can do bad things. We all know this, 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.280 and it would suck if they use their technology to 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.760 do it. They use cell phones, they use dollars, right, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.440 they use all the tools that are currently exist. Uh. 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.360 And yet we know that cell phones, you know, and 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.160 encryption on cell phones is absolutely critical, and the abilities 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.840 for people to communicate with each other has unleashed quite 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.800 trillions of dollars with economic value and social good. So 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.679 I really hope regulators take their time to do their 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.600 due diligence and don't overreact and take you know, these 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.560 kind of like strong man examples of terrible scenarios and 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.800 try to destroy the intern industry would just be a disaster. 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.000 I think when they get into those hyped up examples 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:57.960 like you said, you know, like uh, I think it 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.440 was Obama you said, you know, if we can save 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.559 one life, really so we're going to destroy the entire 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.840 constitution and and and and start a civil war to 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.120 save one life, and then how many lives get destroyed 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.600 after weigh the good and the bad and and uh 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.559 and and it's almost like, um, you know, I could 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.520 whisper a secret to you, and how are they going 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.240 to regulate that? But because now I want to share 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.880 a secret with you over communication, now said it has 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.880 to be listened to, right exactly? You know, yeah, I 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.000 wouldna say. The argumentative technique is to come up with that. 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.320 You know that that micro example that just you know 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.600 is in your face. Look at this kid that was 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.760 killed from this you know, predator who used encryption somehow. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.920 It's a horrible example and it just it listed at 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.160 list it's emotions. And then on the other hand, you said, hey, Constitution, 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.520 Bill of Rights, you can't do that, and this kind 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.280 of like abstract argument, and people just naturally flow towards 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.960 that emotional argument, and it's easy to forget you know that. Well, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.800 if you violate human rights, and you violate the Constitution 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.680 and Bill of Rights, you can have a whole lot 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.040 more destruction that happens. I think, I think we can 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.360 see all the hot button issues, uh that that are 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.440 discussed politically have gone from um, logical arguments to emotional arguments. 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.400 So most of these things, uh, you know, I don't 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.280 even want to say, but you know, whether it be 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.400 guns or vaccines or whatever, Um, you can't have a 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.360 logical conversation, even climate change, you can't have a logical conversation. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.440 It's always an emotional one. And then you you can't 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.240 can't reason with with emotion, right, Yeah, exactly, No, I 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.800 completely agree, and and that's really a shame and it's insulting. Yeah, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.600 it's insulting. Curious though, UM, what you think about this 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.480 attack on privacy, not from a philosophical level but from 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.120 being a US based company? H what does that look like? 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.000 Do you think? I mean, I'll just have you out 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.080 this with, Hey, we're US based companies, so we have 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.520 to comply with US law. We have no intention of 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.000 not doing that. But sometimes I don't I'm optimistic on it. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.800 I don't think that these strawman arguments and kind of 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.960 doomsday scenarios that get pulled out out for you know, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.360 pr opportunities. I don't think that they're gonna carry the 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.360 day and we're going to see destruction of privacy. I 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:14.480 don't think we'll ever see a backdoor on you know, iPhones, 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.840 or at least one is legislated, And of course there's 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.040 all those agencies that can do that with you know, 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.880 illegally without us knowing, and then hopefully we catch them. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.120 M But you know, so I'm optimistic. I think that 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.880 it's pretty it's pretty well established that code is sort 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.040 of a kind of a freedom of speech element, and 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.440 you can't repress code, you can't try to violate the 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.120 mathematics of encryption. Sorry, just doesn't happen, right, So I 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.920 I I don't think we're gonna have this dystopian um outcome. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.280 I really hope not. Yeah, I I would agree. I mean, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.280 they're gonna basically have to blow up the Constitution, right, 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.520 I mean, yeah, exactly that that the argument will come 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.920 back down to the right to freedom of speech, and 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.200 and that's gonna be a very tough one for people 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.400 to swallow. Although it's been interesting to see what's happened 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.040 on the digital Uh like the three D printed gun front. Yeah, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.560 trying to claim that freedom of speech as well. Yep, 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.639 but what about um, I mean that would be affecting 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.600 I guess US companies. But there's plenty of blockchain, cryptocurrency 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.280 encryption stuff going overseas then, right right, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.959 In fact, what I view as an imperative for US 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.120 as a project and horizon and for the entire industry 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.840 is we have to decentralize, and we have to decentralize fast, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.639 because you don't want single points of failure where it's 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.760 the US government says, hey, Rob, we're shutting you guys down. 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.440 Stop doing what you're doing, right, um, freeze money. I 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.480 mean if if you have points of failure and you 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.760 have humans in the loop, of course, um. You know, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.080 let's not be cavalier about this. And too many people 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.359 in the industry have been cavalier about the government's ability to, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.080 you know, stop these systems. And we can say, okay, 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.159 technically you can't ever stop bitcoin, right it's it's it 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.280 could be replicated by anyone with a computer, so you 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.960 can't technically stop it. But they can make our lives 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.520 hell and destroy a lot of lives, So we shouldn't 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.760 be cavalier, um, you know, and I really hope that 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.600 never comes down to that. Now, we are an international 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.640 organization and we are decentralizing, say our treasury, we want 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.159 to decentralized decision making with the voting system, right, decentralize 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.560 our note network from the tracking to the payments of it. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.800 We want to just decentralize everything so we don't have 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.240 those constail here. And you know, I would love to 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.760 be able to just be one of many participants in 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.040 this UM ecosystem. We see the we can see the 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.320 contrast today now because of Facebook, right, Uh, they're being 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.359 brought before the US government to testify, but there's no 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.320 one from Bitcoin going to testify exactly. There's a glaring 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.400 difference that, uh that has become very obvious you know. So, um, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.040 is that something that's in the roadmap for Horizon Labs 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.199 or absolutely? Yeah. Yeah, So with the whole side chain thing, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.320 so we're going live within alpha in the end of 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.080 Q three slash early key four. We'll see how that goes, uh, 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.000 And the whole point of where one of the big 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.359 things that that allows us to do is we're building 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.159 a voting system on a side chain, so basically where 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.040 our treasury pool, we're democratizing and we'll have a way 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.240 for people to vote on how the resources are used 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.800 and how this what kinds of decisions are made as 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.360 an organization. And then we're also gonna have another side 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.320 chain that does our our no tracking payments and automating 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.520 all that. That's just the start. So we have to 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.520 decentralize fast because we know that you know, whether it's 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:25.040 in the US, and I don't think it will be 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.600 in the US, but the leg parts of the world 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:31.000 where what we're doing will be considered illegal, which is insane, right. 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.720 I mean, we're we're building technology, we're united people around 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:37.160 the world, We're giving people opportunity, and we're basically innovating, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.160 you know, economically, technologically, socially, and I can see some 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.480 systems that are more repressive trying to stop that. And 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.239 you know, I don't want us to have points of 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.440 failure where they can go after this points of failure. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.160 I agree. I mean that's the problem with the financial 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.840 system as we know today is that it's permissioned. So 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.000 you have to have permission to join at and a 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.639 lot of people aren't aren't able to receive permission and 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.240 two billion adults on banked and so there's this this 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.840 exclusion and then of course there's a gap of equality 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.680 because people can't even get into the system and uh 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.560 through cryptocurrencies, whether that be stable coins or bitcoin or 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.640 whatever method they choose. Um, it's permission lists, but um, 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.080 definitely they don't want that and exactly, yeah, it's shocking. 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.119 But you know what I do think that what I 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.520 love about this technology and other things that that I 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.679 participate in, like C setting, is we have to make 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.320 governments compete with each other and view us as as 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.439 customers instead of subjects. And then as soon as they 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.919