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Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like

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Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information

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Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.

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Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us

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Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get

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Speaker 1: this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Market Disruptors podcast. Today, I'm sitting down with Rob Biglione,

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Speaker 1: co founder and CEO of zen Labs, and we are

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Speaker 1: talking about their Privacy coin, privacy platform, and privacy overall,

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Speaker 1: the need for privacy. We're talking about what the US

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Speaker 1: government is talking about encryption, putting in backdoors, why privacy

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Speaker 1: is important, what that fight of encryption looks like, and

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Speaker 1: then we get into some other topics. Rob is a

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Speaker 1: pH d in economics, so we get into economics, Austrian economics,

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Speaker 1: and so much more. It's a great conversation with Rob,

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Speaker 1: and just go ahead and jump right into it. Hey, everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: I am joined by Rob Biglione. He is the CEO,

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Speaker 1: co founder of zen Labs, Horizon Cryptocurrency, and he's got

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Speaker 1: a very good background before that as well. It's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna dive into UM but let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Rob Hey, thanks for having me appreciate it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we've got a couple of conversations in the past. It's

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure to talk. So thanks. Thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: back on UM. So I've got to know you pretty

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Speaker 1: good over the past. But for people that are listening

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Speaker 1: for the first time, why don't you give us your background,

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Speaker 1: which I think is very interesting in kind of your

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Speaker 1: path into cryptocurrencies and what you're working on right now.

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Speaker 1: Totally So at my background, Actually, I started my career

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Speaker 1: as a physicist and mathematician working UH with the military.

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Speaker 1: So I was an Air Force officer, worked in Air

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Speaker 1: Force Space commander, working on satellites and intelligence systems and

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Speaker 1: rockets that launch them up. And from there I went

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Speaker 1: into the more of the operational side of the intelligence

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Speaker 1: world and actually parked myself in Afghanistan for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years doing initially a counter i E ed mission.

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Speaker 1: It was really quant a quant intel work, and then

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Speaker 1: started working with a bunch of different parts of the

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Speaker 1: military and a bunch of different missions over there UH,

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Speaker 1: and then from there I got lucky enough to have

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to go back to academia, so I left

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Speaker 1: that world, went back to from my PhD in financial economics,

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Speaker 1: and I had a very good departments that allowed me

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Speaker 1: to study bitcoin. I was studying asset pricing specifically, and

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Speaker 1: then they allowed me to actually look at bitcoin asset pricing,

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Speaker 1: so that was fun. Um. They hired me back as

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Speaker 1: an adjunct faculty member to teach bitcoin in boxing applications

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Speaker 1: and finance, and then I launched zen cash back into

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Speaker 1: the seventeen with my cocount row first Loose and we

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Speaker 1: ran that as an open um, you know, public boxing

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Speaker 1: system for a couple of years, and just recently in

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Speaker 1: this January, we launched an off shoot, basically a commercial

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Speaker 1: offshoot called Horizon Labs, which is really taking the base

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Speaker 1: protocol technology that we've created there and we can talk

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Speaker 1: about that, but bringing that to the commercial domain and

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Speaker 1: really just trying to get that next level exposure for

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Speaker 1: the tech and then the real economic use cases. So

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Speaker 1: um Horizons in which used to be zen cash, now

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Speaker 1: Horizon is a is a privacy coin right forked off

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Speaker 1: of z cash and z classic, etcetera. But you have

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Speaker 1: your privacy coin, and then you went on to become

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Speaker 1: more of a privacy protocol where you could build privacy

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Speaker 1: applications such as private messenger, private storage, etcetera. So it's

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Speaker 1: not what you're talking about taking that layer and putting

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Speaker 1: that out of Rising Labs. That's exactly right. So actually,

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Speaker 1: to be specific, we're we're a few months away now

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Speaker 1: from releasing an alpha of our side chain protocol. So

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Speaker 1: the way that we're looking at this, and really the

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Speaker 1: that pivot from a privacy coin to a platform is

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Speaker 1: via side chain. So the way we look at it

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Speaker 1: is we want to create a hub and spoke sort

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Speaker 1: of model where you have a very stable, secure main

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Speaker 1: chain and then you have all the applications of the

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Speaker 1: logic and business logic and anything that you want to

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Speaker 1: do bespoke, um, you can do on a side chain,

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Speaker 1: and you can have your own side chains. You can

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Speaker 1: have any number of side chains. Really that that part

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Speaker 1: is not really bounded um and then it doesn't the

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Speaker 1: stuff that happens on the sessions doesn't necessarily clog up

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Speaker 1: the main chain. All that goes to the main chain

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Speaker 1: is basically the security feature. In the fact that's consensus

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Speaker 1: on the side chains the met So this is our

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Speaker 1: our solution for skillability basically and really where I think

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Speaker 1: we will be industry leaders once we're release this because

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Speaker 1: it's a truly unfederated side chain system. And when we

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Speaker 1: talk about philosophy and you know, what we're doing later

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Speaker 1: in the show, we can talk about that, but I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important to be truly decentralized. And the

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Speaker 1: side chaine systems on the market to date have been centralized,

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Speaker 1: so those where you have to rely on trusted nodes

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Speaker 1: or trusted certifiers. Ours is truly decentralized, one where the

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Speaker 1: main chain doesn't even have to know what happens in

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Speaker 1: the side chain. No one approves or you know, authorizes

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Speaker 1: of the side chain to exist. It's just any aptive

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Speaker 1: offering and take our toolkit, launce there on blockchain is

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Speaker 1: the horizon side chain, and do whatever they want on

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Speaker 1: that chain and still retain the security properties of you know,

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Speaker 1: our public architecture. Interesting, so a lot of times we'll see,

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Speaker 1: like with Lightning for example, as a side chain of Bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: Lightning is more centralized and solutely yeah less, it's less

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's less secure than the decentralized main chain. Um.

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Speaker 1: So typically I think of side chains is less less secure, right, Uh,

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Speaker 1: but you're saying there's a way that you guys can

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Speaker 1: keep a side chain but still keep its security or decentralization.

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Speaker 1: There absolutely like massively secure. So we're actually using an

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Speaker 1: interesting recursive snark technique for security and leveraging our thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand nodes basically are are super and secure notes system.

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Speaker 1: They have close to a third about thirty thousand nodes

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Speaker 1: right now like full nodes operating in the network, and

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Speaker 1: they will be basically a competitive marketplace for them to

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Speaker 1: be certifying nodes. So you'll have a massive note network

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Speaker 1: where basically, um, you know, all of these notes will

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Speaker 1: have the opportunity to act certifiers or forgers on on

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Speaker 1: the side chains and also actively hunting and sent to

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Speaker 1: byst the hunt for fraud uh and uncover fraud. So

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Speaker 1: it's actually extremely secure system. That's that's nice hybrid public

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Speaker 1: private architecture. Yeah. I remember you guys had suffered an attack,

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Speaker 1: um that you caught pretty quickly and you got really

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Speaker 1: in front of which I really thought that the way

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Speaker 1: you handled that was good, um, and you made some

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Speaker 1: updates to the system, so um, I believe if incorrect,

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. But after that you had updated

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Speaker 1: system and even changed the way maybe the consensus work

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Speaker 1: so that even though um, your chain might be, let's

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Speaker 1: have less value than the Bitcoin main chain, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make it easier to attack. That's exactly right. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: what we did was we modified the macomotive consensus. So

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Speaker 1: instead of just being um, you know, I'll say, naively,

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Speaker 1: just the longest chain role you know, the most the

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Speaker 1: most proof of work, um, you know, dictating which which

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Speaker 1: branch of a chain gets to be the valid one,

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Speaker 1: we added a second check which basically provides a delayed

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Speaker 1: block penalty. So that so the attack vector for this

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Speaker 1: fift one percent attack thing is basically you would have

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Speaker 1: a neferious actor mining privately and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden dumping all of these box of devine privately into

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Speaker 1: the network and scooping the network into thinking that it

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Speaker 1: has the most accumulated pro for work, and then they

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Speaker 1: can execute double spends. And this happened to us. We

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Speaker 1: had a few double spends that were executed or basically, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, a hacker or whatever you wanna call this

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Speaker 1: type of criminal stole a few hundred thous dollars from

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Speaker 1: an exchange it lists that. Um. So it was a

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Speaker 1: terrible event, but not catastrophic. What it did was it

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Speaker 1: really kicked us into gear to try to solve this

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Speaker 1: problem for the industry and for us of course, so

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Speaker 1: we added this second check. So it's really a two

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Speaker 1: checks type of consensus. Now it makes us much more robust.

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Speaker 1: If you know, without it, then we are without it. Um. Now.

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Speaker 1: Not not to say like bitcoin is massively secure because

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Speaker 1: it has a ridiculous amount of per for work on there.

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Speaker 1: We have a miniscule amount of work, but our penalty function,

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Speaker 1: we can actually modulate that to be as escalated quickly

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Speaker 1: be on it to be and right now it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems to be more than sufficient to protect us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's good now. UM. I know, with new technologies

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Speaker 1: we can't really envision the future because they give us

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Speaker 1: new platforms to build new things off of. We can't imagine,

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Speaker 1: but um, as best as we can. What do you

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Speaker 1: see being done on these side changes at least now

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Speaker 1: or in the near future. Yeah, I mean, so there

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Speaker 1: there's a ton and actually are we we have a

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Speaker 1: go to market strategy we have a great strategy marketing

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Speaker 1: bad team, and they've already been carving out projects with

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Speaker 1: select design partners. So basically, right out of the gate,

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Speaker 1: once our alpha's released, you're gonna hear an announcement for

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Speaker 1: some key companies and projects that we're working on. Two

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Speaker 1: showcase the technology. So for instance, one of them is

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Speaker 1: a large digital invoicing company in Latin America looking at

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Speaker 1: um integrating cryptocurrency payments, looking to do things like factoring marketplaces.

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Speaker 1: So if their clients have receivables or payables these notes,

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Speaker 1: they can actually digitize them, you know, standardize them, make

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Speaker 1: them transparent, and put them into an auction marketplace environment.

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Speaker 1: So that's something we're looking at. By by doing that

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Speaker 1: side chain, they have their own token exactly, so they

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Speaker 1: have the token their own system. So basically, if if

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Speaker 1: their system becomes massively popular, it's theirs. They control it.

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Speaker 1: And then importantly, we provide our software developer toolkit provides

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Speaker 1: a basically a reference blockchain model and a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of tools, but they can modify the consensus and at

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Speaker 1: any type of transaction type they want from there to

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Speaker 1: really make it very bespoken configurable to their needs. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so that that's one of them. Um. So also

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Speaker 1: there's another projects looking at a factory marketplace seems to

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Speaker 1: be a pretty hot topic, and another auction environment looking

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Speaker 1: at a tokenization platform, looking at working with one of

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Speaker 1: the main maintainers for a version of hyper Ledger that

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Speaker 1: has an e v M UH and seeing if maybe

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Speaker 1: we can put in UH an e v M variant

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Speaker 1: of hyper Ledger running as a Horizon side chain. So

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Speaker 1: it just shows you the generalizability of it as long

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Speaker 1: as UM an a v M an Ethereum virtual machine,

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Speaker 1: so exactly right, So an Etherium virtual machine as a

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Speaker 1: side chain on the Horizon main chain exactly. And in

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Speaker 1: that sense, it means that any smart contract that was

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Speaker 1: written on Ethereum would be compatible to basically just kind

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Speaker 1: of ported over to work with US. Now wouldn't interact

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Speaker 1: with the you know, the Ethereum chain, but you're basically

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Speaker 1: replicating the same type of you know, infrastructure that then

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Speaker 1: they can build on us as an alternative. Okay, yeah, okay. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Um So you know when we talk about like bass

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Speaker 1: layers and then we add chains and layers and side

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Speaker 1: chains and all these different things on there, Um I

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Speaker 1: mean that's kind of how things scale. Um, what about like,

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Speaker 1: um using like side chain or some sort of like

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Speaker 1: horizon side chain to like add like a a privacy

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Speaker 1: layer on top of a bitcoin, like a side chain

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Speaker 1: of bitcoin. There's some sort of like interoperability like that.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. That's a really interesting question. We honestly have

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Speaker 1: not thought about that. So that's that's something to consider. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's you know, there's a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: other stuff. What I like about the side chain model

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Speaker 1: is you can experiment with any type of system as

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Speaker 1: a side chain, and rather than the launster room blockchain

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Speaker 1: and figure out how you do this big big launching

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Speaker 1: and convince people to run your software, you can just

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Speaker 1: do it a small experiment on the side chain. Modify

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Speaker 1: the you know, the privacy features, modify the applications you

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Speaker 1: running their, modify consensus. Uh. It's an excellent experimental environment. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You could almost like, uh, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe wrap wrap the wrap the bitcoin with us in

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Speaker 1: privacy coin and then uh and then add like a

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Speaker 1: privacy layer on top of the bitcoin network or something

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Speaker 1: like that. UM, I don't know, I've I often just

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Speaker 1: thought about like you know, obviously bitcoin is missing a

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Speaker 1: huge piece of that of privacy. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a big glaring hole that maybe they'll get to

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Speaker 1: at some point. But then there's a good solutions like

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Speaker 1: like uh like Horizon and I just wondered about that,

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Speaker 1: But I'm not I'm not the guy to figure that

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Speaker 1: out by any means. Uh, But I definitely understand that

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Speaker 1: the need for privacy. You know, from your background, you

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Speaker 1: were in the military, and I think you were working

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Speaker 1: on some sort of like encryption stuff there or some

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Speaker 1: sort of reconnaissance intelligence or something. Yeah, I mean definitely

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Speaker 1: encrypted systems, but really from the intelligence satellite perspective. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So but encryption, and so you understand you understand kind

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Speaker 1: of the need for that. Um, what do you think

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Speaker 1: about the need for privacy and the maybe the war

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Speaker 1: on privacy that we have today. I think maybe specifically

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Speaker 1: about um, you know, them calling for an end to encryption, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so trying to stay above the line with

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Speaker 1: the thinking is I I I've seen you know, the

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Speaker 1: downsides of um, you know, or I guess said, there's

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Speaker 1: a downside to people being able to hide and obfuscate,

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Speaker 1: you know, bad behavior, right, we all know that no

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Speaker 1: one's trying to argue against that. I think you would

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Speaker 1: be a big shame though, if regulators, um didn't I

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Speaker 1: take the time to understand what we're doing and all

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Speaker 1: of the social and economic good and value that comes

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Speaker 1: with actually allowing people, uh, you know, privacy, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of a shame or philosophically weird to say, allow

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Speaker 1: people to have privacy, because I think we have a

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Speaker 1: right to it to begin with, right, Um, So I

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Speaker 1: guess my my persecative is there are bad people out there,

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Speaker 1: and bad people can do bad things. We all know this,

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Speaker 1: and it would suck if they use their technology to

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Speaker 1: do it. They use cell phones, they use dollars, right,

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Speaker 1: they use all the tools that are currently exist. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And yet we know that cell phones, you know, and

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Speaker 1: encryption on cell phones is absolutely critical, and the abilities

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Speaker 1: for people to communicate with each other has unleashed quite

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Speaker 1: trillions of dollars with economic value and social good. So

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Speaker 1: I really hope regulators take their time to do their

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Speaker 1: due diligence and don't overreact and take you know, these

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Speaker 1: kind of like strong man examples of terrible scenarios and

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Speaker 1: try to destroy the intern industry would just be a disaster.

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Speaker 1: I think when they get into those hyped up examples

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Speaker 1: like you said, you know, like uh, I think it

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Speaker 1: was Obama you said, you know, if we can save

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Speaker 1: one life, really so we're going to destroy the entire

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Speaker 1: constitution and and and and start a civil war to

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Speaker 1: save one life, and then how many lives get destroyed

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Speaker 1: after weigh the good and the bad and and uh

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Speaker 1: and and it's almost like, um, you know, I could

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Speaker 1: whisper a secret to you, and how are they going

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Speaker 1: to regulate that? But because now I want to share

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Speaker 1: a secret with you over communication, now said it has

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Speaker 1: to be listened to, right exactly? You know, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wouldna say. The argumentative technique is to come up with that.

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Speaker 1: You know that that micro example that just you know

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Speaker 1: is in your face. Look at this kid that was

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Speaker 1: killed from this you know, predator who used encryption somehow.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrible example and it just it listed at

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Speaker 1: list it's emotions. And then on the other hand, you said, hey, Constitution,

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Speaker 1: Bill of Rights, you can't do that, and this kind

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Speaker 1: of like abstract argument, and people just naturally flow towards

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Speaker 1: that emotional argument, and it's easy to forget you know that. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you violate human rights, and you violate the Constitution

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Speaker 1: and Bill of Rights, you can have a whole lot

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Speaker 1: more destruction that happens. I think, I think we can

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Speaker 1: see all the hot button issues, uh that that are

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Speaker 1: discussed politically have gone from um, logical arguments to emotional arguments.

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Speaker 1: So most of these things, uh, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to say, but you know, whether it be

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Speaker 1: guns or vaccines or whatever, Um, you can't have a

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Speaker 1: logical conversation, even climate change, you can't have a logical conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's always an emotional one. And then you you can't

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Speaker 1: can't reason with with emotion, right, Yeah, exactly, No, I

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Speaker 1: completely agree, and and that's really a shame and it's insulting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's insulting. Curious though, UM, what you think about this

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Speaker 1: attack on privacy, not from a philosophical level but from

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Speaker 1: being a US based company? H what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: Do you think? I mean, I'll just have you out

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Speaker 1: this with, Hey, we're US based companies, so we have

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Speaker 1: to comply with US law. We have no intention of

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Speaker 1: not doing that. But sometimes I don't I'm optimistic on it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that these strawman arguments and kind of

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Speaker 1: doomsday scenarios that get pulled out out for you know,

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Speaker 1: pr opportunities. I don't think that they're gonna carry the

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Speaker 1: day and we're going to see destruction of privacy. I

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Speaker 1: don't think we'll ever see a backdoor on you know, iPhones,

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Speaker 1: or at least one is legislated, And of course there's

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Speaker 1: all those agencies that can do that with you know,

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Speaker 1: illegally without us knowing, and then hopefully we catch them.

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Speaker 1: M But you know, so I'm optimistic. I think that

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Speaker 1: it's pretty it's pretty well established that code is sort

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Speaker 1: of a kind of a freedom of speech element, and

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Speaker 1: you can't repress code, you can't try to violate the

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Speaker 1: mathematics of encryption. Sorry, just doesn't happen, right, So I

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Speaker 1: I I don't think we're gonna have this dystopian um outcome.

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Speaker 1: I really hope not. Yeah, I I would agree. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna basically have to blow up the Constitution, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, exactly that that the argument will come

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Speaker 1: back down to the right to freedom of speech, and

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Speaker 1: and that's gonna be a very tough one for people

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Speaker 1: to swallow. Although it's been interesting to see what's happened

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Speaker 1: on the digital Uh like the three D printed gun front. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: trying to claim that freedom of speech as well. Yep,

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Speaker 1: but what about um, I mean that would be affecting

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Speaker 1: I guess US companies. But there's plenty of blockchain, cryptocurrency

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Speaker 1: encryption stuff going overseas then, right right, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: In fact, what I view as an imperative for US

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Speaker 1: as a project and horizon and for the entire industry

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Speaker 1: is we have to decentralize, and we have to decentralize fast,

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Speaker 1: because you don't want single points of failure where it's

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Speaker 1: the US government says, hey, Rob, we're shutting you guys down.

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Speaker 1: Stop doing what you're doing, right, um, freeze money. I

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Speaker 1: mean if if you have points of failure and you

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Speaker 1: have humans in the loop, of course, um. You know,

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Speaker 1: let's not be cavalier about this. And too many people

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Speaker 1: in the industry have been cavalier about the government's ability to,

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Speaker 1: you know, stop these systems. And we can say, okay,

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Speaker 1: technically you can't ever stop bitcoin, right it's it's it

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Speaker 1: could be replicated by anyone with a computer, so you

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Speaker 1: can't technically stop it. But they can make our lives

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Speaker 1: hell and destroy a lot of lives, So we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be cavalier, um, you know, and I really hope that

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Speaker 1: never comes down to that. Now, we are an international

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Speaker 1: organization and we are decentralizing, say our treasury, we want

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Speaker 1: to decentralized decision making with the voting system, right, decentralize

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Speaker 1: our note network from the tracking to the payments of it.

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Speaker 1: We want to just decentralize everything so we don't have

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Speaker 1: those constail here. And you know, I would love to

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Speaker 1: be able to just be one of many participants in

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Speaker 1: this UM ecosystem. We see the we can see the

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Speaker 1: contrast today now because of Facebook, right, Uh, they're being

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Speaker 1: brought before the US government to testify, but there's no

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Speaker 1: one from Bitcoin going to testify exactly. There's a glaring

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Speaker 1: difference that, uh that has become very obvious you know. So, um,

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Speaker 1: is that something that's in the roadmap for Horizon Labs

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Speaker 1: or absolutely? Yeah. Yeah, So with the whole side chain thing,

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Speaker 1: so we're going live within alpha in the end of

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Speaker 1: Q three slash early key four. We'll see how that goes, uh,

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Speaker 1: And the whole point of where one of the big

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Speaker 1: things that that allows us to do is we're building

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Speaker 1: a voting system on a side chain, so basically where

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Speaker 1: our treasury pool, we're democratizing and we'll have a way

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Speaker 1: for people to vote on how the resources are used

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Speaker 1: and how this what kinds of decisions are made as

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Speaker 1: an organization. And then we're also gonna have another side

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Speaker 1: chain that does our our no tracking payments and automating

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Speaker 1: all that. That's just the start. So we have to

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Speaker 1: decentralize fast because we know that you know, whether it's

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Speaker 1: in the US, and I don't think it will be

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Speaker 1: in the US, but the leg parts of the world

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Speaker 1: where what we're doing will be considered illegal, which is insane, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're building technology, we're united people around

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Speaker 1: the world, We're giving people opportunity, and we're basically innovating,

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Speaker 1: you know, economically, technologically, socially, and I can see some

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Speaker 1: systems that are more repressive trying to stop that. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want us to have points of

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Speaker 1: failure where they can go after this points of failure. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that's the problem with the financial

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Speaker 1: system as we know today is that it's permissioned. So

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Speaker 1: you have to have permission to join at and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people aren't aren't able to receive permission and

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Speaker 1: two billion adults on banked and so there's this this

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Speaker 1: exclusion and then of course there's a gap of equality

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Speaker 1: because people can't even get into the system and uh

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Speaker 1: through cryptocurrencies, whether that be stable coins or bitcoin or

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Speaker 1: whatever method they choose. Um, it's permission lists, but um,

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Speaker 1: definitely they don't want that and exactly, yeah, it's shocking.

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Speaker 1: But you know what I do think that what I

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Speaker 1: love about this technology and other things that that I

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Speaker 1: participate in, like C setting, is we have to make

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Speaker 1: governments compete with each other and view us as as

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Speaker 1: customers instead of subjects. And then as soon as they

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Speaker 1: start viewing their role as providing useful services, uh, and

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Speaker 1: that we have many options, then I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll start competing with each other to do better a

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Speaker 1: better job. And you see this in a way like jurisdictions. Think,

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Speaker 1: think about that that that you just said, because I

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Speaker 1: know you're I know you're deep into the libertarian philosophy,

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Speaker 1: so you can get this. But think about what you

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Speaker 1: just said where they should look at us as customers

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Speaker 1: instead of subjects. Yeah, yeah, there's deep it but but

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Speaker 1: but but the government is servants of the people. It

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be. But feel that way, right, right,

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Speaker 1: But so we're going from wishing that their subjects or servants,

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Speaker 1: but to now at least just at least treat us

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Speaker 1: as customers. Yeah. No, that's that's just lip service. I mean,

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Speaker 1: go into a government agency and try to get something done,

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Speaker 1: and then are you really their boss? Of course not No, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't it's not yeah exactly, but no. But this

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Speaker 1: is the line that's used, which is very misleading, is

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Speaker 1: we don't control government. There is a very small subset

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Speaker 1: of people, say a few hundred, you know, at the

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Speaker 1: first level of control, and then you have thousands at

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Speaker 1: the next level of control, and there are our bosses. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it's not the other way around. No matter what

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Speaker 1: can of rhetoric there is. I think it should flip

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Speaker 1: back around, right, Yeah, exactly. I was. I was in

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Speaker 1: l A with Max Kaiser and he was he was

427
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 1: he was talking to a small group and they were

428
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 1: talking about these increasing regulations and whatnot, and he just

429
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 1: basically the same converse station and he just said, look,

430
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: the Second Amendment was put into place to protect against

431
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: tyranny and if you don't think your government is representing

432
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: you is a tyrannical and then maybe you should think

433
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 1: about that. And he just kind of left it like that,

434
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, not advocating for anything obviously, but just something

435
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: to think about, you know. But we should have the

436
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: right to change the government. But now we'd like it

437
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: if they could just look at as customers. UM. But

438
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: I think that actually goes into something that we talked

439
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: about before we started recording, where you would you would

440
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: you had said you had gone from New York to

441
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 1: California to Texas, and I'm in California and and those

442
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: two states are the highest tax states in in the nation.

443
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm stuck in one of them. But you left to

444
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: go to a lower tech state. We were talking about

445
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: going to Puerto Rico, which is a behaven because it

446
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: can bring taxes down very, very low. And just the

447
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: fact that UM, as a customer, we would go where

448
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: we're treated best, exactly. Yeah, And there's a reason why

449
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: so with Horizon Labs. In January, we lost Horizon Labs.

450
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: And there's a reason why we chose Austin, Texas as

451
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: our headquarters because they don't have repressive taxation. You know,

452
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: it's it's a botching hub. It's emerging as a blotching hub.

453
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: You have key talent there, but people are moving there

454
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: and relocating from you know, Silicon Valley traditional areas to

455
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: Austin and to other parts of Texas and in states

456
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: like that that are actually trying to attract people instead

457
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: of you know, repel them. So it's it's that concept,

458
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: like do we see it within the United States? You

459
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: have states competing with each other. You see it with

460
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, internationally, countries start competing with each other, right, Um,

461
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: so I want to see more of that. I just

462
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: want to see competition. You know. I'm not a fan

463
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: of you know, uh, you know, replacing governments or rebellions

464
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, because you know, the reality is

465
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: you and I may disagree with a government, and you know,

466
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: the rest of the population doesn't disagree with them. They

467
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: actually like that government, and then what what percentage you

468
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: gets to impose its will on the other percentage? Right?

469
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: I just don't like scenarios like that. They seem to

470
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: be like win lose, which is why, which is why

471
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: the answer is less government, right, yeah, exactly, and everment Ever,

472
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: men should be out of everyday decision. So, um, then

473
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: instead of fifty fifty split, it should be like the

474
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: majority of people don't have a problem with government because

475
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: they're not really affecting my life that much, right Exactly.

476
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in, you know, the set of

477
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: things the government does being as small as possible, because

478
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: then you have the least ability for to violate people's

479
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: rights and then to basically cause such discontent. So it's

480
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: it's a different scenario because people that have discontent with

481
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: the small government just wants to get something from government,

482
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's for themselves or for others. Maybe

483
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: they feel like they're being philanthropic by taking your money

484
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: and giving it to someone else, but that's not real,

485
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: you know, philanthropy. So I can't said the word. Yeah,

486
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you came to have that viewpoint being

487
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: a PhD in economics financial economics, because it seems like,

488
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not a PhD in economics, so

489
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: you can correct me if I'm wrong, But it seems

490
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: like from all the people that I know that are

491
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: masters or whatnot in economics, Um, really teach in the

492
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: school system is kind of exact opposite of what we're

493
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: talking here, right, So they teach that, um, we should

494
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: be able to control the market, and we should have

495
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: centrally planned uh policies to control the market versus personal um,

496
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: you know, responsibility. So yeah, I think there's there's a

497
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: couple of biases or behavioral biases that that play themselves

498
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: out in academia. One is, uh, academics really like to

499
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: feel smart, right, you know, like basically we go through

500
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: out our lives is like the top of our classes

501
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: that are high school and college and all that, and

502
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: we go into academia because we're good at it and

503
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: we're always we've always been told our whole lives, you're

504
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: so smart, right, And they kind of get off on that,

505
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: and then it manifests such that we tend to gravitate

506
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: towards theories that have tractable solutions, like tractable but also complex,

507
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: because it's it's a nice feeling to be able to

508
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: solve like a second order differential equation and have attractable results.

509
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: And not everyone in the world can do this kind

510
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: of stuff, but you can and you have attractable result there.

511
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: So it's a nice thing because then then the next

512
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: thing is the biases they like to everyone likes to

513
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: feel important, right, and it basically lass hundred years, probably

514
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: since Kan's and maybe a little bit before that, UM

515
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: economists and academics started getting more influencing government because the

516
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: things that they were telling government, we can control this,

517
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 1: we can you know, overcome these problems that they kind

518
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 1: of self identify in the market, UM by giving you

519
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: more power. Of course, politicians are gonna love that. Yeah,

520
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: give me the theory that justifies that I have more power,

521
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: of course. But true science though, and you know, so

522
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: I know in the libertarian world and anarcho capitalists where

523
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: all that that kind of you know I live in

524
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: you probably live in is um. There's this big academic

525
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: dashing that goes on, and I think it's gone too far,

526
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: like very very much too far by people that don't

527
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: really understand what goes on in academia and true academics

528
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: is true science where we do have a scientific method

529
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: and we have Dad and his processes and techniques to

530
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: evaluate hypotheses. Now, there's too many, too many academics that

531
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: violate these fundamental premises and they impose their opinions under

532
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: the guys of academic credibility, like Paul Krug for instance,

533
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: he's not an economist anymore. He was an economist and

534
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: now he's just basically a social commentator on the left.

535
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: But he's using his creditis that's when you reach the top, right, yeah, right, so,

536
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: and that's a shame, and I think that that does

537
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: a big disservice to the world of science. Right but true,

538
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: like true, academia should be just based science. Uh. And

539
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: it's just really unfortunate. But there are amazing guys that

540
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, like John Cochrane for instance, my my favorite economist,

541
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: finance professor out of University of Chicago. Now I think

542
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: he's at the Hoover Institute. But the guy, the guy's brilliant.

543
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: He wrote all the you know, or some phenomenal books

544
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: and that surpricing. But he's a real scientist and he's

545
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: the kind of example that I look up to. But

546
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: it isn't science is a science is not like fact.

547
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: Science is some thing that's an evolving learning stage. Right.

548
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: We're constantly testing and learning exactly. It's a process. And

549
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: so you want to talk about economics as a science,

550
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: but we don't have controlled studies, no, no, no, Yeah,

551
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: the studies are are very very very much uncontrolled. I

552
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: think there are some control studies or not, but they're

553
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: very limited because the range of what you you should

554
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: extrapolate the results to be is very narrow. Um. But yeah,

555
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: I agree, especially in social systems, their complex systems, So

556
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be so arrogant. I think that we really

557
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: understand human behavior so thoroughly that we can predict everything.

558
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: Uh and then and have you have you dived into

559
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: the Austrian economics, then you've I'm a huge fan. That's

560
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: where I came from. Actually, so that was you know that,

561
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: that was where I came from before I went into academia.

562
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: And I still very much love love and you know

563
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: the premises. I think Austrian economics to me is more

564
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: of a philosophy than it is necessarily economic science. It

565
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: provides a great um framework, but it is like a

566
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: hundred year old you know, economic tool tool set, and

567
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: there are there are more modern tools as well. Would

568
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: you say though? The big difference is that with Austrian

569
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: it's more about human incentives, like personal incentives versus um

570
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 1: traditional economics or kinsing economics being more like master planned

571
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: and controlled totally totally. Yeah, So Austrians probably more micro

572
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: and Kaanging is more macro, and I definitely think macro

573
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: is more voodoo science because it treats it treats economics

574
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: like physics and it's not. Uh, you know, so I'm

575
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: much more of a believer in at the human level. Now.

576
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: One thing that Austrian economics doesn't have, although maybe there's

577
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: a huge overlap, is the behavioral economics stuff that came

578
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: about basically from uh, you know, from the economen in

579
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: diversity experiments that they started doing the sixties and seventies. Uh,

580
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: and then some of those papers really blew open this

581
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: whole you know, sub field of economics that I think

582
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: maps in a way back to Austrian school of thought

583
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: where we're actually looking at human humans as non standard

584
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: economic agents, you know, because you know, if you want

585
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: tractable you know, second order differential equation solutions, you need

586
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: uniform economic agents, and we're not all uniform. We don't

587
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: have all the same utility functions that are easily mappable

588
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: and tractable. Right. So I'm a big fan of where

589
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: economics is going. Although the problem, there's a downside to

590
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 1: that is you have some some academics that use this

591
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: as like a toolkit to advocate for more control from government,

592
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: which I think is the exact wrong outcome from it.

593
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: They basically say it's like a market for lemons. As

594
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: as an example, you see this, you know, okay, nice

595
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: theory that says that you should never have a secondary

596
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: marketplace basically for used cars. No one should ever buy

597
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: a used car because the previous owner or the current

598
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: owner knows more about the car's condition than you. There's

599
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: an information asymmetry, and therefore you guys can't agree on

600
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: a price. This is the academic arguments, a famous art

601
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, a journal article. Obviously false. We have secondary

602
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: markets for everything, right, so obviously false. But if you

603
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: were to just take this theory in blind apply it

604
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: without context, I think you'd be completely wrong. And I

605
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: think this is where unfortunately, a lot of policy guidance

606
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: has gone well. It seems like in that analogy, but

607
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: also the other policies that I hear, it always leaves

608
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: out the human incentive part. And I think humans have

609
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: this innate ability. I have little kids and I see

610
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: them on the playground and they're already change trading their

611
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: bologna sandwich for the chips, like we have this, we

612
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: have this like innate ability or desire to trade and

613
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: to uh and do property and and uh. You know,

614
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: everybody wants to preach equality, but at the end of

615
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: the day, some people just are more motivated than other.

616
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: Some people want to work harder than other something and

617
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: and uh and there's incentive there and so um when

618
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: these these macroeconomic policies don't take that into consideration, and

619
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: they they almost work against a lot of that incentives

620
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: from from my from my standpoint. And even that car example,

621
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: as you say, um, I may have an incentive to

622
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: save money, and I may have an incentive to save

623
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: money because I know more about cars than you do

624
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: and I have an edge, right, and so you just

625
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: you just you can't that away from people. Yeah, and

626
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: you know one other things that they're out there is

627
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: there's uh utility to freedom, all right. I value freedom.

628
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: So even if you were to just mathematically proved to

629
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: me that you know, eating sugars that actually don't eat

630
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: a lot of sugar, but say like eating eating fat

631
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: is bad, you you go and prove it. You have

632
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: some theory us evidence. If you take away my right

633
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: to eat a cheeseburger, I'll be pissed even if I

634
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: know that it's not necessarily bad, but it's completely disproproportionate

635
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: because maybe it gives me some value right now. And

636
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: I know I'm not gonna eat a hamburger every meal

637
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, which would be a

638
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: short life, right, But freedom has value, and to just

639
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: impose people on people, you know, the will of the

640
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. The Ivory Tower is a terrible idea.

641
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: Even if they're right, which I don't think they are,

642
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: so well, they can't. They can't be They can't be

643
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: right for everybody. I might be okay dying at forty

644
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: years old if I can eat a cheeseburger every day,

645
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: and that's my right exactly. I love cheeseburgers that much,

646
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: and I don't need to live to eighties, So I'm

647
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: gonna eat an every day and and to forty, And

648
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: who are you to tell me that I can't. I

649
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: think I think it's a philosophical argument that, um, you

650
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: can't make somebody's life better by taking away their choices

651
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: or forcing them to do things they don't want to do, right, right,

652
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm very much opposed to that absolutely. I would love

653
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: for them to say, hey, we can help you. Here,

654
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: here's the plan, here's why it's bad, and try to

655
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: reason with me education exactly. But you know, I think

656
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: it goes. I think it just goes from a win

657
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: win into a win lose deal. But I think there's

658
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: also a stark difference in you know, Austrians believe in

659
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: saving and deploying that capital versus Austin traditional economics believes

660
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: and spending for capital. Right, and so that's a big

661
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: difference totally. And I think the reason why that's important

662
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: to understand right now is I believe what bitcoin is

663
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: doing is it's changing that narrative because we've never really

664
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: had a deflationary currency before. And I know this personally

665
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: because I own bitcoin, and I know because I talked

666
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: to other people a bitcoin. But it changes the way

667
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: I think about spending. So might dollars. I have no

668
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: problem spending my dollars yep, Oh, two thousand bucks last

669
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: week and went to Texas with my daughter. Sure dropped

670
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: too grand we on a trip together. No big deal.

671
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: Those are my dollars. They're worth less next month. Anyway.

672
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: My bitcoin, I'm not selling that for anything, right, and so, um,

673
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: and that's where we should be, right, we should be

674
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: in that saving mindset deploying capital. And so that's a

675
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: big difference, right, I completely agree with you on that.

676
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: I really don't know where the nonsense of you know,

677
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: perpetual deficits and perpetual inflation came from. I think it's

678
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: just insanity. Um. Now you can see why it's supplied

679
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: because it's really useful for politicians. Why would they ever

680
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: want to live within a budget? Politicians are too creative

681
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: to live within a budget. They want obviously they want

682
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: to spend more than they have right now because they're

683
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 1: not responsible for paying it. So of course they're gonna

684
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: gravitate to any theory that tries to pseudo justify that

685
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: that nonsense. But it's not sustainable. No, But it's human nature. Yeah,

686
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: human nature is always gonna want to push it as

687
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: long as you can push it until you can't push

688
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: it anymore. Exactly. So, Um, you're not an economist, but

689
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: you are a PhD in economics. Uh. But so, I mean,

690
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: right now, we have this system where we have uh,

691
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: we have this system that whatever you want to call

692
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: it kenzie in or modern whatever, where we're building debt.

693
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: We're spending money we don't have. In the next couple

694
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: of years, we wont be able to cover the debt

695
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: the interest on the debt um And now we have

696
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: this other system that's creating this deflationary currency. Uh, and

697
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: we're starting to see the this, you know, the stink

698
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: differences of that. All the developed world, not just the

699
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,959
Speaker 1: United States but the whole West at least, but most

700
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: of the world is in the same economic situation where

701
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: we're spending spending spending. Is there a way out? I mean,

702
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: once they've gone down this path, there's really no way,

703
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 1: Like you have to continue down the path, right, there's

704
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: no way I mean there. I mean, I guess you

705
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: could wake up tomorrow and just change your mind, but

706
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: that's likely not going to happen. So the reason that

707
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: hasn't collapsed yet is because theoretically, they say, hey, growth

708
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: will catch up and we'll be able to grow ourselves

709
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: out of our problems, grow ourselves out of the debt.

710
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: Right so far hasn't happened. We've seen a lot of

711
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: growth around the world, but that actually incentivizes politicians to

712
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: spend even more. So you know, if they just spent

713
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: less than we're growing, you know, and we got into

714
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: less that per year, and then we were growing, would

715
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: eventually be able to theoretically work ourselves out of it. Um,

716
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: But I just don't see right now. The incentives are

717
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: not there for politicians, so I wouldn't expect at anytime soon.

718
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: I think we need more competitive governance, really, and this

719
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: is why I'm such a fan of things like c

720
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: setting and cryptocurrencies, because we can vote with our our

721
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: our money, now we can vote with our feet. These

722
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: are really empowering things. There's never been a better time

723
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: to be alive than today. Yeah, I believe we're in

724
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: a very transitional period that you know, maybe a hundred

725
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: years from now they will have this period written about

726
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: in history books, where, um, what the heck were they thinking? Like, no,

727
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: I totally agree it was a fifty year they did.

728
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: Like what the heck? Have you ever seen that video

729
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: of like an alien comes to Earth and uh, some

730
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: some encount terms his first human and the humans said,

731
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: do you want me to take you to our leader?

732
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: And the aliens like, what's a what's a leader? Like?

733
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: Where does they lead? Where do they lead you? You know?

734
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: And it's just really cool video it's like a cartoon.

735
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: I highly recommended because it's a huge parody of I

736
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: think a hundred years from now people will look back

737
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: on today. I think we're savages, Like, how can we

738
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: live this way? How could we let people exploit each

739
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: other this way? And by exploit, I mean really exploit,

740
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: not these like weird fantasy terms of unexploiting you because

741
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm getting I'm making money. No, No, I'm talking about

742
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: people actually taking you know, taking us and putting us

743
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: in cages for smoking pot or you know, violating people's

744
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: human rights, are stealing from people, like systematically through through

745
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: unfair taxes and stuff like that. That that's real exploitation.

746
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: And I think this will be looking back on is

747
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: barbaric and completely unnecessary. I agree. And to think that

748
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: we have no um, no standard unit of account for

749
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: wealth or value or whatever you want to call that,

750
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: which really I think stems you know, at the at

751
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: the base of all these problems. But um, yeah, good

752
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: stuff and interesting. We could we could talk about that forever,

753
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: but kind of we're kind of running out of time.

754
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 1: But um, I love I love what you're doing, Rob,

755
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: I love I love the information that you're putting out, um,

756
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: and I love what Horizon Labs is doing to increase privacy,

757
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: which I think is uh is a big piece we

758
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: didn't really get into. But from from a philosophical level,

759
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: the privacy is such a big piece of an entire society.

760
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: You can't just maybe tell me in a couple of sentences,

761
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: why why you think privacy is so important to a society.

762
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean, privacy is at the heart of everything. I mean,

763
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: it's almost so big of a question I don't know

764
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: how to answer. You know, how do you answer something

765
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: like that, because, uh, you know, if you don't have privacy,

766
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: you really don't have the ability to have any kind

767
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: of freedom. Right. Um. You know, we can say you

768
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: have freedom, but the second some authority doesn't like what

769
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: you're doing, it doesn't like what you're saying, uh, doesn't

770
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: like what you're doing with your money, right, then then

771
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: they could do whatever they want to you. So, you know,

772
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: it's starts if you believe in freedom and you believe

773
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: that human beings have a right to their own lives.

774
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: I think you have to believe in privacy. And it's

775
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: not about having something to hide, It's about having the

776
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: freedom to have your own thoughts and um to people

777
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: who think they have nothing to hide. The problem is

778
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: is that there's someone on both sides of the aisle.

779
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter what debate you're on, pro life,

780
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 1: for a choice, Democrat, Republican, whatever, there's gonna be somebody

781
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: on the opposite side. And uh, and really it comes

782
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: and it's more than just the decisions. It's uh, it's

783
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: the thought and then it's the creativity that comes from that. Ye.

784
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: So so anyway, I think it's a huge piece and

785
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: I love it and and and that's why I really

786
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: like the project and follow along? So where do people

787
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: follow along? To learn more about Horizon and Horizon Labs

788
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: and yourself. So our website, Horizon dot global is the

789
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: one stop shop for everything. But then please join our

790
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: join our discord, join our telegram groups, you know, come

791
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: to our Reddit page, participate, see what's going on, and

792
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: we're always up there. I definitely encourage our team to

793
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 1: be very active with the community so you can reach

794
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: out to us directly. Please do cool All right, good stuff.

795
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for the conversation, Rob, I look forward

796
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: to it again sometime. Thank you, Mark, appreciate it. Hey,

797
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: if you like this, episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast.

798
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: Please help us take this to the top of the

799
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: podcast charts. Just please do me a favor and rate,

800
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to just leave a

801
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: quick review goes a long way and helping us reach

802
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: more people and disrupt more markets. I really appreciate you

803
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: listening and I'll see you next time on the Market

804
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: Disruptors Podcast.