Speaker 1: I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on the
Speaker 1: b n F podcast. So each year BNF hosts a
Speaker 1: series of summits. We had to turn our summits virtual,
Speaker 1: but they continued to tell important stories for each region.
Speaker 1: In Shanghai, the topics revolved around energy, industry and transport,
Speaker 1: and in today's episode we feature an interview from our
Speaker 1: Shanghai summit, which took place back in December. We had
Speaker 1: the pleasure of hosting John Murton, COP twenty six envoy
Speaker 1: for the UK government and he spoke about carbon neutrality
Speaker 1: and the race to net zero. Before we head into
Speaker 1: today's recording, a quick reminder that BIENNF does not provide
Speaker 1: investment or strategy advice, and we have a complete disclaimer
Speaker 1: at the end of the show. Also, to see other
Speaker 1: interviews from this summit and other b n F summits,
Speaker 1: head to about dot BIENF dot com Forward Slash Summit.
Speaker 1: John Murton was interviewed by Veronica Henza, who leads communications
Speaker 1: at bien EF. Let's hear Veronica with John Mercy. John,
Speaker 1: welcome and thank you so much for joining our BENF
Speaker 1: summit in Shanghai. It's a pleasure to host you. Thank
Speaker 1: you great to be there. John. We've seen a number
Speaker 1: of countries make net zero commitments recently. Can you share
Speaker 1: a few thoughts on how the economics of a low
Speaker 1: carbon transition are changing. Well, as we look towards organizing
Speaker 1: COP twenty six, we have a tail wind behind us
Speaker 1: that perhaps people organizing Company one in Paris didn't have.
Speaker 1: And that's to say that in the past, in order
Speaker 1: to encourage countries to reduce their emissions, we were having
Speaker 1: to persuade them to give up a little bit of
Speaker 1: the economic growth. But now, because of the changing economics
Speaker 1: of renewables and zero emission vehicles and other low carbon technology,
Speaker 1: we were able to say not only that that trade
Speaker 1: off doesn't apply, and you can see that by looking
Speaker 1: at the G seven growth figures over the last thirty years,
Speaker 1: where the UK has been the fastest growing economy and
Speaker 1: also the economy that has cut it submissions the past.
Speaker 1: Is not only does the old trade off no longer apply,
Speaker 1: but actually the reverses is true, and that in order
Speaker 1: to grow your economy you need to agree in your economy.
Speaker 1: Green economy is the fastest growing sector of the world economy,
Speaker 1: much fast in the brown economy, and so if you
Speaker 1: want to grow your economy, you have to increasingly direct
Speaker 1: it in that green direction, and markets points in that direction.
Speaker 1: That's why Tesla is worth more than Toyota and next
Speaker 1: day energy is worth more than ex China has obviously
Speaker 1: been one of those countries making a commitment recently. What
Speaker 1: do you expect the impact of China's twenties sixty commitment
Speaker 1: to be on the energy transition overall? The Chinese commitment
Speaker 1: is obviously very very welcome, and it's having a number
Speaker 1: of impacts. It's having a diplomatic impact. We saw that,
Speaker 1: you know, just in the six weeks after the Chinese announcement,
Speaker 1: we saw Japan, the world's third largest economy, make commitment
Speaker 1: to net zero in twenty fifty, and then weeks after
Speaker 1: that we saw the Korean economy make a commitment to
Speaker 1: to net zero by so it's having a diplomatic impact
Speaker 1: that we hope we can leverage through the world as
Speaker 1: we go forward next year. But this also will have
Speaker 1: a market impact and economic impact. As you described, so,
Speaker 1: one would imagine if you were an investor in coal
Speaker 1: mining right now, you might be feeling that your investment
Speaker 1: was much less certain than it was before these announcements
Speaker 1: were made, and you might be considering that now would
Speaker 1: be the time to move your investment out of coal mining,
Speaker 1: for example, and into some of the sectors that are
Speaker 1: likely to profit from the shift to the low carbon economy.
Speaker 1: And John, obviously, besides making this public statement, what would
Speaker 1: you expect, or at least wish for the steps for
Speaker 1: China to take to actually meet its Paris goals. Setting
Speaker 1: a net zero target has been really welcome, and that's
Speaker 1: written into the Paris Agreement. All the countries that signed
Speaker 1: up to Paris signed up to the language and the
Speaker 1: Paris Agreement that that talked about a balance between anthropogenic
Speaker 1: emissions on the one hand and natural stynth on the
Speaker 1: other in the second half of the twenty one century.
Speaker 1: So it's right that everyone is gradually signing up to
Speaker 1: these net zero goals more formally and putting a date
Speaker 1: on them through next year will be encouraging all countries
Speaker 1: to come forward with net zero goals, and including particularly
Speaker 1: those industrialized economies that have yet to do so. But
Speaker 1: sending a long term goal is one thing, but it's
Speaker 1: also really important to start working it back and working
Speaker 1: out what that means you need to do in policy
Speaker 1: terms today, next week, next year, in the next five
Speaker 1: years and so on. We set a legally binding net
Speaker 1: zero goal in the UK back in in the summer
Speaker 1: of and over the last eighty months we've been working
Speaker 1: through very carefully what does that mean. What do we
Speaker 1: have to do to achieve net zero? No one's ever
Speaker 1: done it before, and you know, there are certain complex
Speaker 1: things that you have to work out that you're going
Speaker 1: to do, whether that's in terms of housing standards, because
Speaker 1: any house you build today is likely to still be
Speaker 1: around in twenty fifty or twenty sixty, or in vehicle standards,
Speaker 1: because any vehicle that's sold in could still be on
Speaker 1: the road by twenty fifty, or in other areas of
Speaker 1: your economy. So we're looking forward to working with all
Speaker 1: the countries that are setting net zero targets to discuss
Speaker 1: our experiences and to work out how we get to
Speaker 1: those those those targets in the longer term and what
Speaker 1: we need to do in the shorter term in order
Speaker 1: to put us on the right path. And John, you're
Speaker 1: engaged and climbed diplomacy, and by all Marines, I'm curious
Speaker 1: to hear your quick take on what exactly that entails.
Speaker 1: But what are your team's goals ahead of cop next
Speaker 1: year and what are you working towards and trying to achieve.
Speaker 1: Twenty six will be the largest summit the UK has
Speaker 1: ever hosted, and it's a really important summit in the
Speaker 1: unf tripal seat process. In Copenhagen in Denmark in twenty
Speaker 1: ten and then again in Paris in tift, these major conferences,
Speaker 1: the world was trying to find an agreement on climate
Speaker 1: change that all countries could sign up to. There was
Speaker 1: famuluere in Copenhagen and there was success in Paris. So
Speaker 1: our job in Glasgow is not to have negotiated a
Speaker 1: new treaty. The treaty was negotiated in in Paris. That
Speaker 1: the agreement was negotiated in Paris, and that had enormous
Speaker 1: strength because a d n countries signed up to to
Speaker 1: adhere to it. Our goal therever is not just to
Speaker 1: negotiate a new treaty, but to show that the existing
Speaker 1: treaty can work. Paris's strength is its universality. But it's
Speaker 1: still unproven that the concept of voluntary action and voluntary targets,
Speaker 1: which is what NDCs, Nationally determined contributions are can work
Speaker 1: and deliver what we need to achieve in terms of
Speaker 1: limiting temperature rise, so that we can achieve o our
Speaker 1: climate goals. So in Glasgow we have to demonstrate to
Speaker 1: the world that the Paris Agreement can work, and that
Speaker 1: this principle of voluntary action and ever increasing ambition can work,
Speaker 1: and that we can use it to deliver the goals
Speaker 1: of the Paris Agreement, which is to limit the temperature
Speaker 1: rise around the world, to know more than two degrees
Speaker 1: and as close to one point five DeGreasy as possible.
Speaker 1: So to do that, we're encouraging all countries to set
Speaker 1: long term strategies of the sort of China and Japan
Speaker 1: and Career are now setting. We're in encouraging all countries
Speaker 1: to come forward with revised and more ambitious nationally determined contributions,
Speaker 1: that's to say, their their plans for reducing emissions over
Speaker 1: the next ten years to so that we're sending strong
Speaker 1: signals to investors about the direction of our economies. And
Speaker 1: we're trying to support that by five campaigns that will
Speaker 1: bring together actors, not just national level governments, but actors
Speaker 1: in the corporate world, and in civil society and and
Speaker 1: the local government level to bring them together to show
Speaker 1: that actually ambitious climate action is really possible, and it's
Speaker 1: not just something we're doing for the sake of the planet,
Speaker 1: but there's something we're doing for the sake of our
Speaker 1: economies and our lineblihoods. And those campaigns are around adaptation
Speaker 1: and resilience because climate change is already happening now and
Speaker 1: we need to make sure that we're able to help
Speaker 1: those people who are the most vulnerable to climate change
Speaker 1: and experience in the West effects too, to adapt and
Speaker 1: become more resilient in the face of it. And we're working,
Speaker 1: for example, with the insurance sector in that regard as well.
Speaker 1: There financial elements to that. We're working on nature based
Speaker 1: solutions to show that conserving your peat lands or your
Speaker 1: forests or your swamps it's really important in terms of
Speaker 1: tackling climate change and also provides other additional services to
Speaker 1: your economy flood prevention and so on. We're working to
Speaker 1: speed the transition to renewable energy around the world. We
Speaker 1: know that the economic case for renewable energy is is
Speaker 1: very strong. That's why two thirds of the installed capacity
Speaker 1: in the world last year was solar and wind because
Speaker 1: of the new installed capacity, but we want to accelerate
Speaker 1: that transition. And the fourth campaign is about zero mission vehicles.
Speaker 1: Again we want to accelerate the transition the uptake of
Speaker 1: zero mission vehicle technology. And underpinning all those by four
Speaker 1: other campaigns as a campaign around finance, both to make
Speaker 1: available the finance to developing countries that was promised at
Speaker 1: Paris and again at Copenhagen, the hundred billion and dollars
Speaker 1: a year that developing countries promised, but also to make
Speaker 1: sure that the impact of climate change is really considered
Speaker 1: in financial decision making, so that whether you're a finance
Speaker 1: minister or a finance executive on the board of your company,
Speaker 1: you understand the impact of climate change upon your activities,
Speaker 1: and you understand the impact of your activities upon climate change.
Speaker 1: And hopefully those five campaigns will enable countries to be
Speaker 1: more ambitious and also, in the case of finance in
Speaker 1: the hundred billion a year, create the political conditions so
Speaker 1: that we can conclude successfully the negotiations on the remaining
Speaker 1: outstanding elements of the Paris rule Book. That's a very
Speaker 1: clearly fully packed agenda and the five different streams you've outlined.
Speaker 1: Does that mean that the outcomes we can expect to
Speaker 1: see in November next year, will they be more ambitious
Speaker 1: since basically we skipped a year of having come together,
Speaker 1: or will they still be kind of matching the expectations
Speaker 1: that we would have had for I'm confident and optimistic
Speaker 1: that we can deliver more ambitious outcomes in November one
Speaker 1: that we would otherwise have been able to do. COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen has obviously been a terrible thing and impacted hugely
Speaker 1: upon society's and economies around the world, and it's been
Speaker 1: right that are our political leaders have been focused on
Speaker 1: that in twenty and it was right to delay six.
Speaker 1: But there is a silver sort of lining to all
Speaker 1: of that, in the sense of there's a lot of
Speaker 1: money being spent now on recovery around the world, and
Speaker 1: we need to make sure that that money has spent
Speaker 1: not on propping up old brown industries that commit that
Speaker 1: the sort of contribute to the pollution and the climate
Speaker 1: change problem that we're experiencing around the world, but that
Speaker 1: that new investment to get our economies going in after
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen focuses on stimulating the green economy and accelerating
Speaker 1: our transition to a green economy. So I'm confident that
Speaker 1: we can do that around the world. We've seen the
Speaker 1: commitments from China and Japan and here in recent months.
Speaker 1: The delay of COP twenty six means that now we
Speaker 1: will be hosting COP twenty six after the inauguration of
Speaker 1: President Biden, who has committed to making a net zero
Speaker 1: target for the United States of America, which means that
Speaker 1: also will be hosting COP twenty six in the year
Speaker 1: when the UK holds the G seven presidency, and we
Speaker 1: can hope that the G seven summit in the summer
Speaker 1: will be the first G seven summit where all the
Speaker 1: participating countries have got net zero goals of their own,
Speaker 1: and in a year when our Italian partners are Italian
Speaker 1: co hosts are hosting the G twenty presidency this year,
Speaker 1: so we can see the G twenty in a similar
Speaker 1: direction to supporting our cock p Relea six goals. So
Speaker 1: I'm confident that by the time we get to the
Speaker 1: end of COPT six, we'll be able to show the
Speaker 1: world that we're on an irreversible and accelerating transition to
Speaker 1: a low carbon economy. Now for a very short break
Speaker 1: stay with us and John to what extent is your
Speaker 1: team directly involved in getting those companies to commit to
Speaker 1: net zero targets. So we work both directly with companies
Speaker 1: and also through the UN's High Level Climate Action Champion,
Speaker 1: Nigel Topping, and we were very closely with companies to
Speaker 1: try and encourage them to take on ambitious new commitments
Speaker 1: because companies are delivering climate emissions reductions in the real world,
Speaker 1: but also they give confidence to governments that they can
Speaker 1: be more ambitious. If you just look at the recent
Speaker 1: commitment made by the UK government to bring forward phase
Speaker 1: out for the sale of sort of internal combustion engines
Speaker 1: from a lot of that was drawn upon sort of
Speaker 1: enthusiasm in the industry to make the transition quickly so
Speaker 1: industry can help government along. And I think we've passed
Speaker 1: the days when government was dragging industry along and saying,
Speaker 1: come on, you have to do this for the sake
Speaker 1: of planet. And now often in many areas, in many sectors,
Speaker 1: but not all sectors, it's industry dragging government along saying
Speaker 1: come on, we need to go faster. We need you
Speaker 1: to help us set the regulatory framework that will enable
Speaker 1: the uptake of this new technologies. It's a bit similar
Speaker 1: to what you said in terms of industry actually being
Speaker 1: ahead of government what we've seen around climate disclosures right,
Speaker 1: just for instance, the TCFD that task for some climate
Speaker 1: related financial disclosures with an industry leed initiative, and now
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of governments making those recommendations mandatory.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good example that kind of fits
Speaker 1: into into that. It's a great example, and you saw
Speaker 1: our Finance Minister just a couple of weeks ago made
Speaker 1: it clear that by twenty three disclosure along TCFD lines
Speaker 1: will be mandatory for all the UK listed firms, and
Speaker 1: that means if you're a pension fund manager or an
Speaker 1: investment manager, you can actually have information that enables you
Speaker 1: to make informed decisions about climate risk within your portfolio.
Speaker 1: John you just mentioned as well, um Burst Johnson's ten
Speaker 1: point plan for a Green Industrial Revolution. In terms of
Speaker 1: the UK putting such a plan out there and hosting
Speaker 1: COUP next year as a host country for CUP, what
Speaker 1: are the expectations are there further expectations for the UK
Speaker 1: to step up on climate action and can we potentially
Speaker 1: expect other major announcements coming out from the UK in
Speaker 1: that sense, I think there are I think I mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier on how the nature of COPS is changing. So
Speaker 1: there will still be negotiations in Glasgow and we will
Speaker 1: share those as Presidency, but the focus will not just
Speaker 1: be on negotiations, but will also be on how we're
Speaker 1: encouraging countries to come forward a new and ambitious plans.
Speaker 1: So the role of the Presidency, whilst it used to
Speaker 1: be only a chair of the negotiations and if you like,
Speaker 1: was an impartial referee, now we also have to be
Speaker 1: a cheerleader for ambition and we can only really realistically
Speaker 1: encourage other countries to take ambitious steps to tackle climate
Speaker 1: change if we're doing that ourselves at home. And so
Speaker 1: it's really important that as hosts, we are delivering ambitious
Speaker 1: plans for our own climate action. And you saw that
Speaker 1: with our Prime Minister's ten point plans Beach just a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, where he committed us to forty
Speaker 1: gigas of off your wind by up from ten. Now
Speaker 1: that's that will be enough to power every home in
Speaker 1: the UK with offshore wind energy, and he framed it
Speaker 1: very much in the language of jobs and in the
Speaker 1: language of a green industrial revolution, because he sees that
Speaker 1: actually this won't just be good for the climate, but
Speaker 1: it will be good for our economy, and not just
Speaker 1: the economy generally, but also the prime ministers and leveling
Speaker 1: up agenda. So it's it's sort of win win win
Speaker 1: in so many ways. He committed to ensuring that there
Speaker 1: would be five gigawatts a year of low carbon hydrogen
Speaker 1: production in twenty thirty and the sort of the whole
Speaker 1: hydrogen economy is a green industrial revolution and waiting to happen.
Speaker 1: And he made numerous other commitments that effect sectors like
Speaker 1: house building, bringing forward the standards for new greener houses
Speaker 1: in the UK, and also, most notably in which was
Speaker 1: really picked up on in the press, the phase out
Speaker 1: of the sale of petrol and diesel engines by twenty thirty,
Speaker 1: a whole decade earlier than we had originally planned. And
Speaker 1: increasingly the view is that actually this is not a
Speaker 1: cost to be feared, but an opportunity to be embraced.
Speaker 1: And the analogy I use is is mobile phones. And
Speaker 1: I've spent half my working career in Africa and in Kenya,
Speaker 1: for example, where I did my PhD if you'd have
Speaker 1: said to people in in twenty years time, there'll be
Speaker 1: more phones than people in Kenya, everyone would have laughed
Speaker 1: and said, well, we can never afford that. That's never
Speaker 1: going to happen. I have to wait seven years for
Speaker 1: the state utility to bring a landline to my house
Speaker 1: to connect me to the telephones, and lo and behold.
Speaker 1: Now you know you have more phones than people in
Speaker 1: Kenya because the technology made it in people's commercial interest
Speaker 1: to do it. And we're seeing that very much with
Speaker 1: the renewables and with zero mission vehicles and the International
Speaker 1: Energy Agency just the other day he said solar power
Speaker 1: is the cheapest electricity we've ever had. And I was
Speaker 1: speaking to the Indian Energy Minister today and he told
Speaker 1: me that in the latest deals they've had for renewable
Speaker 1: energy in India, they brought down the cost to two
Speaker 1: point seven US cents per killer what hour. So it
Speaker 1: gives me a great challenge. I can go to other
Speaker 1: economies and saying you're paying nine twelve cents the killer
Speaker 1: what hour for your false and fuel power, how will
Speaker 1: your energy intensive industries compete with those in India that
Speaker 1: are getting power for two point seven sense? And that
Speaker 1: really makes people sit up and listen and you know
Speaker 1: that change will start to happen very quickly. On I
Speaker 1: Suspect and John, I, I've actually meant to touch on
Speaker 1: your experience working in Africa. You've been the British ambassador
Speaker 1: to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, you had numerous
Speaker 1: other roles in other African countries. Can you maybe share
Speaker 1: a little bit about your experience and impressions, you know,
Speaker 1: working in these countries but also with the lens in
Speaker 1: terms of how are these developing nations approaching the energy
Speaker 1: transitions and what economics are at play over there. So
Speaker 1: I'm personally really excited about the opportunities for a low
Speaker 1: carbon transition in a lot of African economies. They because
Speaker 1: in some of the economies, and indeed some of the
Speaker 1: ones with the infrastructure that is sort of least sort
Speaker 1: of well suited currently, for example electrical transmission, the opportunities
Speaker 1: offered by renewables are immense. So in my previous job,
Speaker 1: I was working in the DRC. As you mentioned, now,
Speaker 1: the electricity transmission grid around the DRC is essentially is
Speaker 1: not in a good state of repair and there are
Speaker 1: many outlying cities and towns that don't have access to
Speaker 1: the grid. But the great thing about renewables is that
Speaker 1: they're infinitely scalable. You can have one panel generating enough
Speaker 1: power for a household, or you can have a whole
Speaker 1: solar farm, and the economics are very scalable. And so
Speaker 1: you can put now in place a minigrid in a
Speaker 1: town in in northern DRC, for example, and you don't
Speaker 1: have to build out a national grid to that town.
Speaker 1: You can just install a grid in that town and
Speaker 1: it generates. They're in place, and so that that is
Speaker 1: sort of enhancing the economics of renewables, because if you
Speaker 1: compared it to say, putting a massive qualified power station
Speaker 1: in place centrally in Kishassa and then building out a
Speaker 1: grid to connect towns to that, the economics of renewables
Speaker 1: suddenly become very favorable. And that is even right down
Speaker 1: to the rooftop level. And we've seen fantastic companies like
Speaker 1: m Copper and be Box working in Eastern and Central
Speaker 1: Africa delivering household a right to people's doors on their
Speaker 1: roots and in combination with telephone technology so that you
Speaker 1: pay a little some every day to buy the solar panels.
Speaker 1: And if you don't pay the sum. The solar panels
Speaker 1: sort of stopped working because they're controlled by a mobile phone.
Speaker 1: So it's there's a really exciting technology out there, and
Speaker 1: that's important for the politics of the negotiations as well,
Speaker 1: because sometimes when a technology develops, it's actually more accessible
Speaker 1: in advanced industrialized economies. But all of the technology that
Speaker 1: I'm seeing in terms of renewable Angie actually is is
Speaker 1: very deployable in emerging markets, and hopefully we can use it.
Speaker 1: Just as we saw the mobile phone give millions and
Speaker 1: millions of African consumers access to telephony for the first time,
Speaker 1: Hopefully the deployment of renewable technology can give millions and
Speaker 1: millions of African consumers access to electricity for the first
Speaker 1: time as well, and that will be a really significant win,
Speaker 1: not just for climate action, but also for people's welfare
Speaker 1: and lifelihoods in those countries. Yeah, it's really this idea
Speaker 1: of them being able to leave prog and jump ahead
Speaker 1: using cleaner technologies basically, and John, how can the people
Speaker 1: listening in take concrete steps and drive climate action if
Speaker 1: you're operating in a country where the government hasn't yet
Speaker 1: set a long term target. Encourage your host government to
Speaker 1: set a long term emissions reduction target. We found that
Speaker 1: that has been really helpful in the UK because it
Speaker 1: creates a field which lowers the cost of capital for investors.
Speaker 1: If you know that there's going to be a market
Speaker 1: for lower carbon economy products in your country because they're
Speaker 1: set in an zero target, it reduces your cost of
Speaker 1: capital and it makes your business more successful in the
Speaker 1: low carbon sector. So encourage your governments to set ambitious
Speaker 1: targets because it will actually help drive your business. But
Speaker 1: also take on a target internally very interesting. Once a
Speaker 1: company takes on a target, it starts sort of mainstreaming
Speaker 1: the idea of climate action through the group, and that
Speaker 1: has really interesting effects. And if I've spoken to the
Speaker 1: the sustainability CEOs of a number of major companies in
Speaker 1: the Asian region, and I sup to one who remained nameless,
Speaker 1: but he said he had a twenty four percent return
Speaker 1: on capital employed in his sustainability division within the company,
Speaker 1: installing essentially energy efficiency innovations within the rest of the company,
Speaker 1: and that was the highest return on capital employed in
Speaker 1: the group. It's not sexy, but it has a real
Speaker 1: impact on the bottom line. As well as a really
Speaker 1: positive climate impact. That's great John looking ahead at longer
Speaker 1: term trends and themes that might become really important in
Speaker 1: the future. What are you looking at? Is it something
Speaker 1: around you know, gender equality and how that links back
Speaker 1: to the climate transition. Is it something around biodiversity or
Speaker 1: social welfare or I'm curious to hear your you're the
Speaker 1: bigger trends you're watching. So as we were sort of
Speaker 1: highlighted earlier on, I'm an African development economist by by training,
Speaker 1: and so I look at it sometimes from from that lens,
Speaker 1: and I can see very much in particularly in emerging
Speaker 1: markets and some of the poorest markets are lot of
Speaker 1: the technology we've been discussing has some really positive gender impacts.
Speaker 1: So for example, if you can install electric cookstoves in
Speaker 1: people's houses, people don't have to go and fetch firewood,
Speaker 1: and in many societies around the world it's women who
Speaker 1: go and fetch the firewood or the biomass for fuel.
Speaker 1: And similarly, if you have electric lighting as a result
Speaker 1: of a rooftop solar panel in a poor village in
Speaker 1: Kenya or DRC or wherever, that enables more children to
Speaker 1: study after school, after school after it's got dark, and
Speaker 1: that can really enable young girls to continue with their schooling,
Speaker 1: and that itself is sort is massive for for female
Speaker 1: empowerment in those markets. So I think, to me, there's
Speaker 1: no tension. There were just sort of reinforcements between the
Speaker 1: climate environment agenda on the one hand and also the
Speaker 1: sort of a lot of the gender issues that you're
Speaker 1: touching on on the other. My very last question for you,
Speaker 1: and we're very grateful for your time today, is it's
Speaker 1: been a very turbulent year, to say the least, and
Speaker 1: in time of crises. What are the leadership lessons you've
Speaker 1: learned and that you would like to share with our audience. Well,
Speaker 1: for me, this year has obviously been a very unusual one,
Speaker 1: as I'm sure it has been for everyone experiencing COVID.
Speaker 1: But for me, what it's shown actually is that we
Speaker 1: can think, we can afford to think big. The fact
Speaker 1: that we're doing this interview by zoom now is perfectly
Speaker 1: normal and has been for the last few months. But
Speaker 1: a year ago we might have found that surprising. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I'd have been thinking I would do this interview
Speaker 1: on a trip to Shanghai for the conference. UM and
Speaker 1: so we can. We can see that governments around the
Speaker 1: world have really worked together to tackle the COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: virus and there's been you see all the vaccines that
Speaker 1: are coming forward now the result of international collaborations. So
Speaker 1: if the governments of the world can work together to
Speaker 1: tackle COVID nineteen so successfully, it gives me a lot
Speaker 1: of confidence. And if we can change all our behaviors
Speaker 1: so rapidly as we have with COVID nineteen and working
Speaker 1: from Homer zone is now normal, that gives me a
Speaker 1: lot of confidence that we can make the behavior little
Speaker 1: changes and have the international cooperation that's required to tackle
Speaker 1: the climate prices successfully. And John, there's a lot on
Speaker 1: your plate for next year running up up to CUP,
Speaker 1: and keep those net zero commitments coming in all the
Speaker 1: best of luck and we'll be looking forward to hearing
Speaker 1: the outcomes of CUP next year and top at all
Speaker 1: as well. Thank you. Today's episode of Switched On was
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