WEBVTT - It Lurks in the Mine Shaft, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:14.960 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:15.840 is Robert Land. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.599 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back to part two 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.400 of our Halloween season series called it Lurks in the 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:27.000 Mind Shaft, about creatures and spirits said to haunt the mines. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.000 In part one, we talked about red caps, blue caps, 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.760 and the Cornish mining spirit known as the Knocker or 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.400 Tommy Knocker, which was originally the subject of labor lore 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.520 in Southwest England, but was later imported through immigrant oral 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.400 tradition to the minds of the Western United States. And 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.159 we're back today to talk about more so, rob In 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.640 the last episode we talked a bit about the creature 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.680 from German folklore known as the Cobald. Would you mind 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.520 if we do a little bit more on this one 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.520 because I found an interesting geological history connection. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:04.640 Yeah, yeah, this will be fun to get into. The Cobald, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:06.760 of course, is also well known to Dungeons and Dragons 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.000 players as the low level dragon kin creature that is 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:16.000 generally encountered at low levels and in beginner campaigns, but 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:21.880 has apparently become increasingly popular as a character choice for players. 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.760 Apparently there's a whole very popular meme among younger D 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:30.760 and D faults where you would have three Cobalts in 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.600 a trench coat pretending to be a person and like 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.280 people make you know, there's all sorts of fan art 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.960 of this. You can find three D printed miniatures and 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:39.520 so forth. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.240 Okay, so you said a low level dragon form. This 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.320 is a draconic reptilian type creature, but also humanoid, kind 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.240 of a long snout with scales and. 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:54.360 A tail exactly. Yeah, basically goblinoid creatures with dragon features 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.080 ch iconic features. Yeah. So not a lot to do 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.360 with what we're going to get into here, except that they, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:01.800 you know, typically live underground. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.360 Yeah, underground small stature would have been common with the 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:08.440 real folklore. But the creature from actual historical folklore doesn't 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.480 have any reptilian features that I read about. That seems 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.800 to be a pure D and D invention. So this 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.760 originally came up in the context of talking about the 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.600 Tommy Knockers, because there is a lot of overlap between 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.359 these two creatures. So I'm going to go more lightly 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.320 on the things that are essentially the same between them. 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.000 The cobalt seems to have been well known in German 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.480 sources of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and is usually 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.800 described as a type of goblin or fairy like creature, 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.639 looking like a little old man. I believe Georgia's Agricola, 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.600 who we mentioned last time, says that they are about 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.240 twenty seven inches tall. Other times they're said to be 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.639 two feet tall, somewhere in that range. They are sometimes 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.280 described as wearing a conical hat and pointy shoes, or 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.040 they can be dressed like a human miner in mining 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:01.239 clothes and mining gear. Sometimes friendly, but often delicious and deceitful. 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.920 The I don't know the moral alignment of the cobalt 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.880 from what I was reading, seems to have the same 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.200 range as the Tommy knocker, but it with a little 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.040 more emphasis on the meaner side of the scale. Okay, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.200 the cobalt is most notably associated with mines, but it's 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.639 not limited only to minds. It can also inhabit households 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.440 on the surface, so it can be a household trickster, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.600 like many of these other spirits we've talked about. In 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.880 either place, it would often play tricks, even nasty tricks, 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.920 on people. So in your house. It might throw sawdust 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.120 all over the floor, or kick ashes around up of 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.920 the fireplace, or drop sand in your milk. In the mine, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.480 it could lead you astray, making you think you had 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.200 discovered a great vein of silver, only for you to 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.680 waste so many hours working on it and later realize 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.920 you had been fooled. The element cobalt actually gets its 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.920 name from the impish form of the cobalt, because early 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.600 modern miners believed the presence of cobalt or near a 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.400 vein of silver was problematic in some way. It made 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.120 the silver harder to get out, or damage the purity 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.839 of the silver in some way, So cobalt was a 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:21.240 demonic or mischievous mineral. One interesting thing about the cobalt 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.440 is that I found references to a passage where Martin Luther, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:30.280 the father of the Protestant Reformation, talks about the cobalt 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.640 as a type of devil or minion of satan. I 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.840 came across this reference in a book called Early Modern 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.400 Supernatural The Dark Side of European Culture fourteen hundred to 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.200 seventeen hundred. This is a book from twenty twelve by 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.200 an author named Jane P. Davidson, who is a professor 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.200 of art history at University of Nevaderino. Davidson is in 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.960 the middle of writing about the blurring between categories of 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.560 supernatural beings and interesting that that's something that came up 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.240 in part one one of this series, that sometimes you 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.560 have these creatures where it's not quite clear are they 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:09.360 considered a fairy type creature, something other than human, or 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.280 a ghost of a dead human. Sometimes there is a 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.200 crossing of boundaries between these categories. A creature can be 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.159 considered one or the other, or maybe both at the 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:25.200 same time. In the case of the cobalt, some early 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.440 modern authors treated them as a type of fairy or gnome. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.599 Others treated them as ghosts, having qualities similar to a 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.440 Poultergeist noisy ghost moving things around and making a rucus. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.320 But also they were sometimes considered to have the qualities 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.919 of a demon or an imp, and some authors embraced 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.839 a fully Christian theological framing and simply said they were 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.240 devils of Satan. So Martin Luther is an example of 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.599 the latter. In a passage from his table talk, he says, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:02.240 in translation of course quote, the devil vexes and harasses 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.080 the workmen and the mines. He makes them think they 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.719 have found new veins of silver, which when they have 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:12.080 labored and labored, turn out to be more illusions. Even 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.919 in open day on the surface of the earth, he 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.920 causes people to think they see a treasure before them, 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:20.800 which vanishes when they would pick it up. I have 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.760 never had any success in the minds, but such was 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:29.200 God's will, and I am content. And I thought this 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:34.719 was interesting because it recasts the mining imp as one 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:38.640 associated not so much with the mine as a place, 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.880 but with the mental space of searching for treasure. You know, 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.760 he says, even in open day on the surface of 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.400 the earth, if your mind is in prospector mode, if 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.359 you are looking for treasures and riches, searching for little 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.920 signs of ways to profit and get rich, this devil 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.200 will find you and take advantage of your greed or 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.599 your hope. So this made me think, is it worth 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:09.320 thinking about the difference between devils with a theological framing 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.640 and goblins or fairy folk with a more secular folklore framing. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.280 The latter seems to me to be more part of 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.240 the geography or the environment, sort of a part of 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.640 the natural world, but a magical part of the natural world, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 whereas the former the devil is part of a very 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.840 human focused cosmology. It's hard to think of a devil 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.840 as something leading a life of its own, living a 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.320 parallel existence in a hidden world where you might get 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.640 in trouble for spying on it going about its business. 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:46.840 You know, like these stories we have the Knockers, where 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.440 people are peeking in on the knockers working and they 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.360 get caught, and that's no good for them. That it's 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.400 not really going to happen with a devil because devils 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.560 have no business. They're not going about their own business. 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.120 Their business is exclined lusively the tempting and tormenting of 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.080 human souls. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.760 Yeah, to use a very late example, you can look 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.320 at C. S. Lewis's The screw Tape Letters, in which, Yeah, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.040 the demons are expressly concerned with us. They have no 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:17.480 other business, like, this is their entire life, this is 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:18.200 their identity. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:20.360 I don't know if I've ever thought about it in 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.640 quite these terms before, but this strikes me as a 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:27.240 potent distinction between different types of creatures or imps a 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.160 person could believe they were crossing paths with You have 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.280 this more fairy folk tradition where these creatures are just 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.760 part of the world and you might by chance cross 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.760 paths with them, and you know, things, lots of things 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.920 could happen from that accidental meeting, But the meeting is 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.280 an accident. The meeting with a devil is never an accident. 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.120 The devil is looking for you, you know, and if you 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.880 meet it, it is because you have done something wrong 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.640 and you have allowed it the opportunity to get you, 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:00.920 which is something it's all trying to do. 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.720 Hmmm. Yeah, this is fascinating to think about because obviously, 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:09.640 if you experience an hallucination or see something in the 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.760 natural world that you don't have context for, you could 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.839 go with either explanation. But then you can also think 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:20.880 about like the purpose these different supernatural motifs serve. And 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.400 in the unique environment of a mind like a deep 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:29.400 rock mind, you have both the interaction with the natural world, 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.640 and therefore you can see yourself leaning more towards these 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:39.760 embodiments of nature, nature spirits, nature guardians, nature deities. But 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.400 then you are also in a highly social environment, you know, 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:48.000 working with people, trusting people, having weird feelings about how 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.480 your foreman is treating you, and so forth. And all 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.080 of that seems like maybe a little richer area for 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:55.679 the devils to do their work. 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:57.200 Yeah. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.000 And I guess the other thing to stress, you know, 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.160 talking about how different people have characterized these things. I 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.679 guess this is always the problem when you have you know, 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:09.079 at some later point an academic or a best eerie 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:14.120 rider wants to categorize everything something that existed in an 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.160 oral tradition and may you know, differ from mind to mine, 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.760 from storyteller to storyteller, and even you know, situation to situation. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.520 I think you can get a lot of things exactly 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.679 like that, where something is much more in the fairy 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.920 folk mold, in how it is discussed among the people, 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.320 that's its oral tradition mode of being. And then when 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.920 it's time for someone to come along and catalog that 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.640 belief in a book, it gets very much recategorized in 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:42.000 the theological framing. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.760 Yeah, and we want to know what is its challenge rating? 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:45.680 Yeah? 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:47.640 Is it a fairy or is it a devil? You 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.319 have to tell me faye or you know, infernal fay 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:51.199 or fiend? Which is it? 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.600 Well, I've got another little alley to go down if 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.480 you want to play some more fair fiend games. Would 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.880 you like to look at some creatures of Scandinavian mining folklore, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.760 Let's do it, okay? So for this I turned to 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.200 a book called Scandinavian Folk Belief and Legend by a 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:12.080 couple of scholars named Rymond Kevitaland and Henning K. Simsdorf. 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.680 This book is from the University of Minnesota Press, nineteen 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.880 eighty eight, and the authors note that while mining legends 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.080 are prolific throughout continental Europe, they're actually a little bit 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:28.400 less common, though still present in Scandinavia. So they were 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:33.600 able to collect five different varieties of mining legend here 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.920 based on accounts from different times in places from Sweden 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.640 and Norway. It seems mostly collected in the first half 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.200 of the twentieth century. So in contrast to the most 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.400 common subterranean mining spirit found elsewhere in Europe, which as 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.720 we discussed last time, was usually this elf like being 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.360 shaped like a tiny old man, the creature that haunts 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.240 a mine in Norway or Sweden is most often described 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:07.000 as a solitary female being, often a fine lady. There 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.360 are a few examples here that go by different names. 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.840 You have the Groovra, the ruler of the mine, the 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.720 groove Froken, the Lady of the Mine, or the Soulvmora, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.640 the Silver Mother. Almost exactly like the Tommy Knocker and 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.480 other spirits we've discussed, the spectral Lady of the Mind 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.600 has a dual nature. In some tellings, she is benign 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.000 and even helpful, leading the miner to loads of ore 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.920 or protecting him from danger. But in other situations she 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.839 is a jealous guardian of the riches of the earth, 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.520 and she can cause disaster and strike the greedy miner dead. 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.640 In addition to the Lady of the Mine and the 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.400 Silver Mother, there are also stories in Scandinavian legend that 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:58.000 depict mythological beings as miners themselves. For example, mythical dwarves 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.319 are often depicted as in dustus miners and smiths, and 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.800 they could carry dangerous and powerful magic of their own. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.280 So the authors include a few specific tales. First, I'll 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.880 mention a couple having to do with a lone female 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.160 mining spirit like the Silver Mother. One story from Middle 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.360 Sweden involves silver miners in a place called Holifores Forest. 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.400 The story goes when the mine first opened up, the 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.360 miners worked for a while without finding much, but then 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.840 one day they heard the voice of a lady calling 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.080 out to them. It was a woman's voice, and she said, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.440 keep to the left, otherwise you disturb the foot of 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.520 my bed. These miners were, you know, they paid heed 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.880 to the voice. They followed her instructions, keeping to the 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:44.960 left of the pit, and what do you know, they 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.640 struck silver. So turned out well for them. Who knows 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.000 what would have happened if they had done otherwise, Maybe 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.079 they would have angered the silver mother. Another story collected 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.080 from near the same place in the Swedish province of 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.920 Vostmanland call. This one was called the Lady of the 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.360 mine warned them. It goes like this quote. In Clack Mountain, 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:10.240 there was a mining pit called Sunshine Mountain. My father 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.240 heard from my grandfather who worked there in his time, 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.720 that one day the miners had emerged from the mine 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.920 and were eating their noon meal in a shack. Suddenly 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.680 a fine lady appeared and said, go down into the shaft, 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.760 pick up your gear, and go home. The older men 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.320 did as she told them, but the younger fellows just 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.080 laughed and stayed. The mine collapsed and they were all 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.120 buried under the rocks. It was the lady of the mine, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.400 who had warned them whenever she showed herself, a miner 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:43.640 would lose his life. Interesting detail here. The old men 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.720 listen and are saved, the young men ignore her and die. 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.040 Are the old men simply more cautious or is it 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.040 that the old men have respect for the legend and 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:56.000 thus are saved. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:58.880 Ah, you know, I think it's probably both. I mean, 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.280 the youth of today they just don't listen to to 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.080 the Silver Mother like like like the old codgers know 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:05.560 how to do. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.080 What did the young men think the Silver Mother was? 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.440 Was she just like, oh, that's just a crazy, random 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:11.760 lady coming out of the mine. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.280 I don't know. Maybe you know what it probably is, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:16.880 you know, getting back to some of what we were 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.200 discussing in the last episode and discussing in this one. 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.000 It probably comes back to that gut understanding of the mine. 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:28.440 It sounds, it's in some cases it smells, you know, 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.480 being able to sort of feel the mine, and the 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.160 young people they just don't have the experience and or 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.760 they're more brash, whereas the old men like they've been 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.680 down there in the mine long enough. I mean, they 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.320 didn't they didn't become old miners by not listening to 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:44.000 the mine. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.480 As George Orwell reports, they can feel the weight upon them. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.600 Yeah yeah, okay, So we have the Silver Mother leading 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.440 you to or and the Silver Mother warning you of danger. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.000 And then finally they also include a short remembrance from 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.480 a place called the Nasa Mine, near the border between 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.200 Norway and Sweden, and that goes like this. Nils Olsen 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.360 from then from northern Rana tells how his father once 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.120 went over to look at the minds of Nasa. As 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.200 it turned out, he stayed away for quite a long time, 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.880 and when he finally returned, the people were just getting 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.680 ready to come after him. They had feared that the 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.680 Silver Mother in Nasa had taken him. So here the 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.960 Silver Mother herself seems to be the threat, a malicious 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.000 figure who in fact in the story does not harm anyone, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.640 but the people assumed could seize you on a solitary 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.000 survey and make you disappear forever. But fortunately the father 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:52.360 and the story was spare. Okay. Now a couple more 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.640 Scandinavian tales in the other tradition, not the Lady of 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.440 the mines or the Silver Mother, but the spirits and 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.000 beings who are minor themselves, or at least make some 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.360 claim over the ore in the mine. One of them 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.280 is a story collected from Norway concerning a place called 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.320 Klett Mountain, a mountain with silver hidden inside it. The 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.000 main character of the story is a ferryman who works 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.520 a boat taking people across a nearby sound. One day, 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.959 two men come over and hire him to take them 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.719 across the sound, and one of them is carrying a 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.520 load of silver so big it almost sinks the boat. 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.480 The ferryman asks them where they got all the silver. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.800 They tell him it's from Clett Mountain. He asks them 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.920 if there is more silver still in the mountain. They say, yes, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:39.840 there's a bunch more there, and they tell him the 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.480 secret of where to find it. But when the boat 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.159 reaches the other shore, the two miners disembark, and as 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.760 soon as they leave the boat, they vanish into thin air. 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.200 I don't know if the implication is that they were 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:56.040 actually dwarves, but there was some kind of spectral miner here, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.359 you know, they knew where to get the ore, and 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.800 they gave him the secret, and then they're gone. 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.639 And here well outside of the mine too. Yeah, that's interesting. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.159 That's like if you were to encounter spectral dwarves on 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.720 Wall Street. Yeah, yeah, trading in like silver stocks or something. 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.200 And then like where did they go? Oh they were dwarves. 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.919 The taxi driver, yeah yeah, that drops them off and 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:18.600 they disappear. 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:19.040 Yeah. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.000 And then finally, here's one last story, also collected from 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.879 vast Minland in Sweden in nineteen oh two. I'm just 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.040 going to read this one directly. This one is called 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.439 he lost his eyesight quote. According to legend, the copper 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.280 deposits at Leunsnarberg were discovered at the beginning of the 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.280 seventeenth century by a man named Martin Finn. One day 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.200 he went fishing and slept by his fire. He was 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.479 awakened by the sound of hammering and pounding in the mountain. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.119 A rough voice shouted the first, who are treasure? A 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.119 spies will lose both eyes. When he pushed aside the 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.359 coals to quench the fire, the rock was laid bare 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:03.439 and there glistened the copper. But as soon as the 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:08.240 exploitation of the find began, Martin Finn went blind. So 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.120 that story is interesting because there's some ambiguity, at least 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.520 to me, in the way it's being told. I think, though, 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.840 I am not sure that this should be interpreted as 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.680 another example of supernatural miners, or at least supernatural claimants 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.600 to the discovery of the ore there. But it could 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.240 also be like supernatural guardians or protectors of the mind, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.199 more like the Silver Mother. I guess it depends on 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.520 how you interpret the sound of the hammering and pounding 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.480 that woke Martin up. Was that the sound of the 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.960 beings that cursed him pounding the rock trying to reach 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.080 the ore first? In other words, is the speaker of 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.720 the curse a competing spectral miner, or was that hammering 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.360 the sound of human mind workers or explorers who were 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.240 there at the same time as Martin. If it's the latter, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.920 I think you could interpret this more like the malevolent 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.800 version of the Silver Mother, like I am the spiritual 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.280 owner or guardian of this mine, and I will curse 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.520 and punish the first person who finds the ore I 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.639 have hidden there. But it reads to me more like 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.600 these are you know, the dwarfs or whatever other spectral beings. 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:17.760 They want the ore, They want to get there first. 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.359 You know that I saw it first, and if you 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:22.400 lay your eyes on it, I will punish. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.000 You supernatural competition. 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.840 Yeah, so I was trying to think, are there any 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.800 consistent moral themes in this Scandinavian mining lore like we 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.000 saw in the early Cornish legends of the Tommy Knockers, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.560 Because remember in the Cornish examples, there were moral punishments, 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.680 and what was punished was disrespect of the knockers themselves, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:50.080 excessive curiosity like spying on the spirits, or excessive greed 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.560 and ambition trying to take more than your fair share 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.359 or trying to swindle the spirits. By contrast, I tried 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.320 to actually separate out what is being punished in the 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.879 three Scandinavian examples here that feature punishment or feature the 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.120 threat of punishment. In one, it seems to be simply 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.040 looking at the minds, like trespassing or possibly spying. That 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.760 could be a curiosity punishment, but it could also just 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.199 be a jealous guardianship of the mind. In another, it 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.919 seems to be not listening to the warning of the 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.000 Silver Mother. This might actually not be seen as a 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.199 punishment but merely a consequence. And in the third, it 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:33.680 is accidentally laying eyes on or that the spirits either 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.359 guard or seek to extract themselves, and this one to 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.800 me doesn't feel like a moral punishment. It seems just random. 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.439 So I think there's really no evidence here of punishment 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:49.920 for greed or excessive ambition. The magical violence feels more capricious, 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.120 random and purely dangerous. 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.159 M yeah, as in keeping with a natural force. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.800 Yeah yeah. And I was also thinking about the silver 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:05.920 Does the fact that it is a regal, somber, solitary 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:10.159 woman change anything, comparing it to the idea of a 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.960 cadre of mischievous, diminutive, old gray bearded men. Does that 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.199 change how the legend is received and told by the 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.520 people who believe in it. And I would note also 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:25.320 that the curses here are more acute than we saw 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.040 in the Cornish legends, because if you remember the original 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.400 Cornish Tommy Knockers, they would curse you if you crossed them, 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.960 but that curse tended to be bad luck or bad 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.080 luck in mining. If the Silver Mother or any of 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.080 these Scandinavian beings curse you, it seems more likely to 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.440 mean violent death or being struck blind, something really acute. 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.199 And that's more like the later American evolution of the 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.879 Tommy Knockers, which tended to give omens about death and disaster. 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:57.680 Yeah, this is interesting to think about. They're more likely 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:02.040 to be like little Gromlin type creatures or or little 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.240 men if they are just cursing your luck. But then 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.040 if we're looking at it as a like a death 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.880 dealer or or death itself, then you know, what does 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.240 it mean that it is gendered and given this kind 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.800 of you know, almost the stature of a goddess. Yeah, 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.080