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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Land.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back to part two

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Speaker 3: of our Halloween season series called it Lurks in the

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Speaker 3: Mind Shaft, about creatures and spirits said to haunt the mines.

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Speaker 3: In part one, we talked about red caps, blue caps,

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Speaker 3: and the Cornish mining spirit known as the Knocker or

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Speaker 3: Tommy Knocker, which was originally the subject of labor lore

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Speaker 3: in Southwest England, but was later imported through immigrant oral

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Speaker 3: tradition to the minds of the Western United States. And

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Speaker 3: we're back today to talk about more so, rob In

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Speaker 3: the last episode we talked a bit about the creature

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Speaker 3: from German folklore known as the Cobald. Would you mind

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Speaker 3: if we do a little bit more on this one

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Speaker 3: because I found an interesting geological history connection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this will be fun to get into. The Cobald,

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Speaker 2: of course, is also well known to Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 2: players as the low level dragon kin creature that is

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Speaker 2: generally encountered at low levels and in beginner campaigns, but

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Speaker 2: has apparently become increasingly popular as a character choice for players.

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Speaker 2: Apparently there's a whole very popular meme among younger D

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Speaker 2: and D faults where you would have three Cobalts in

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Speaker 2: a trench coat pretending to be a person and like

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Speaker 2: people make you know, there's all sorts of fan art

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Speaker 2: of this. You can find three D printed miniatures and

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Speaker 2: so forth.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you said a low level dragon form. This

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Speaker 3: is a draconic reptilian type creature, but also humanoid, kind

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Speaker 3: of a long snout with scales and.

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Speaker 2: A tail exactly. Yeah, basically goblinoid creatures with dragon features

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Speaker 2: ch iconic features. Yeah. So not a lot to do

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Speaker 2: with what we're going to get into here, except that they,

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Speaker 2: you know, typically live underground.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, underground small stature would have been common with the

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Speaker 3: real folklore. But the creature from actual historical folklore doesn't

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Speaker 3: have any reptilian features that I read about. That seems

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Speaker 3: to be a pure D and D invention. So this

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Speaker 3: originally came up in the context of talking about the

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Speaker 3: Tommy Knockers, because there is a lot of overlap between

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Speaker 3: these two creatures. So I'm going to go more lightly

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Speaker 3: on the things that are essentially the same between them.

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Speaker 3: The cobalt seems to have been well known in German

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Speaker 3: sources of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and is usually

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Speaker 3: described as a type of goblin or fairy like creature,

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Speaker 3: looking like a little old man. I believe Georgia's Agricola,

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Speaker 3: who we mentioned last time, says that they are about

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Speaker 3: twenty seven inches tall. Other times they're said to be

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Speaker 3: two feet tall, somewhere in that range. They are sometimes

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Speaker 3: described as wearing a conical hat and pointy shoes, or

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Speaker 3: they can be dressed like a human miner in mining

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Speaker 3: clothes and mining gear. Sometimes friendly, but often delicious and deceitful.

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Speaker 3: The I don't know the moral alignment of the cobalt

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Speaker 3: from what I was reading, seems to have the same

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Speaker 3: range as the Tommy knocker, but it with a little

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Speaker 3: more emphasis on the meaner side of the scale. Okay,

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Speaker 3: the cobalt is most notably associated with mines, but it's

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Speaker 3: not limited only to minds. It can also inhabit households

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Speaker 3: on the surface, so it can be a household trickster,

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Speaker 3: like many of these other spirits we've talked about. In

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Speaker 3: either place, it would often play tricks, even nasty tricks,

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Speaker 3: on people. So in your house. It might throw sawdust

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Speaker 3: all over the floor, or kick ashes around up of

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Speaker 3: the fireplace, or drop sand in your milk. In the mine,

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Speaker 3: it could lead you astray, making you think you had

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Speaker 3: discovered a great vein of silver, only for you to

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Speaker 3: waste so many hours working on it and later realize

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Speaker 3: you had been fooled. The element cobalt actually gets its

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Speaker 3: name from the impish form of the cobalt, because early

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Speaker 3: modern miners believed the presence of cobalt or near a

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Speaker 3: vein of silver was problematic in some way. It made

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Speaker 3: the silver harder to get out, or damage the purity

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Speaker 3: of the silver in some way, So cobalt was a

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Speaker 3: demonic or mischievous mineral. One interesting thing about the cobalt

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Speaker 3: is that I found references to a passage where Martin Luther,

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Speaker 3: the father of the Protestant Reformation, talks about the cobalt

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Speaker 3: as a type of devil or minion of satan. I

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Speaker 3: came across this reference in a book called Early Modern

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Speaker 3: Supernatural The Dark Side of European Culture fourteen hundred to

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Speaker 3: seventeen hundred. This is a book from twenty twelve by

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Speaker 3: an author named Jane P. Davidson, who is a professor

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Speaker 3: of art history at University of Nevaderino. Davidson is in

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Speaker 3: the middle of writing about the blurring between categories of

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Speaker 3: supernatural beings and interesting that that's something that came up

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Speaker 3: in part one one of this series, that sometimes you

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Speaker 3: have these creatures where it's not quite clear are they

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Speaker 3: considered a fairy type creature, something other than human, or

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Speaker 3: a ghost of a dead human. Sometimes there is a

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Speaker 3: crossing of boundaries between these categories. A creature can be

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Speaker 3: considered one or the other, or maybe both at the

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Speaker 3: same time. In the case of the cobalt, some early

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Speaker 3: modern authors treated them as a type of fairy or gnome.

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Speaker 3: Others treated them as ghosts, having qualities similar to a

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Speaker 3: Poultergeist noisy ghost moving things around and making a rucus.

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Speaker 3: But also they were sometimes considered to have the qualities

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Speaker 3: of a demon or an imp, and some authors embraced

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Speaker 3: a fully Christian theological framing and simply said they were

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Speaker 3: devils of Satan. So Martin Luther is an example of

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Speaker 3: the latter. In a passage from his table talk, he says,

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Speaker 3: in translation of course quote, the devil vexes and harasses

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Speaker 3: the workmen and the mines. He makes them think they

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Speaker 3: have found new veins of silver, which when they have

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Speaker 3: labored and labored, turn out to be more illusions. Even

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Speaker 3: in open day on the surface of the earth, he

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Speaker 3: causes people to think they see a treasure before them,

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Speaker 3: which vanishes when they would pick it up. I have

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Speaker 3: never had any success in the minds, but such was

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Speaker 3: God's will, and I am content. And I thought this

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Speaker 3: was interesting because it recasts the mining imp as one

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Speaker 3: associated not so much with the mine as a place,

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Speaker 3: but with the mental space of searching for treasure. You know,

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Speaker 3: he says, even in open day on the surface of

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Speaker 3: the earth, if your mind is in prospector mode, if

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Speaker 3: you are looking for treasures and riches, searching for little

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Speaker 3: signs of ways to profit and get rich, this devil

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Speaker 3: will find you and take advantage of your greed or

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Speaker 3: your hope. So this made me think, is it worth

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Speaker 3: thinking about the difference between devils with a theological framing

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Speaker 3: and goblins or fairy folk with a more secular folklore framing.

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Speaker 3: The latter seems to me to be more part of

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Speaker 3: the geography or the environment, sort of a part of

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Speaker 3: the natural world, but a magical part of the natural world,

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Speaker 3: whereas the former the devil is part of a very

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Speaker 3: human focused cosmology. It's hard to think of a devil

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Speaker 3: as something leading a life of its own, living a

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Speaker 3: parallel existence in a hidden world where you might get

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Speaker 3: in trouble for spying on it going about its business.

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Speaker 3: You know, like these stories we have the Knockers, where

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Speaker 3: people are peeking in on the knockers working and they

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Speaker 3: get caught, and that's no good for them. That it's

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Speaker 3: not really going to happen with a devil because devils

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Speaker 3: have no business. They're not going about their own business.

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Speaker 3: Their business is exclined lusively the tempting and tormenting of

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Speaker 3: human souls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, to use a very late example, you can look

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Speaker 2: at C. S. Lewis's The screw Tape Letters, in which, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the demons are expressly concerned with us. They have no

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Speaker 2: other business, like, this is their entire life, this is

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Speaker 2: their identity.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever thought about it in

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Speaker 3: quite these terms before, but this strikes me as a

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Speaker 3: potent distinction between different types of creatures or imps a

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Speaker 3: person could believe they were crossing paths with You have

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Speaker 3: this more fairy folk tradition where these creatures are just

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Speaker 3: part of the world and you might by chance cross

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Speaker 3: paths with them, and you know, things, lots of things

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Speaker 3: could happen from that accidental meeting, But the meeting is

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Speaker 3: an accident. The meeting with a devil is never an accident.

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Speaker 3: The devil is looking for you, you know, and if you

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Speaker 3: meet it, it is because you have done something wrong

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Speaker 3: and you have allowed it the opportunity to get you,

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Speaker 3: which is something it's all trying to do.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm. Yeah, this is fascinating to think about because obviously,

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Speaker 2: if you experience an hallucination or see something in the

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Speaker 2: natural world that you don't have context for, you could

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Speaker 2: go with either explanation. But then you can also think

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Speaker 2: about like the purpose these different supernatural motifs serve. And

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Speaker 2: in the unique environment of a mind like a deep

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Speaker 2: rock mind, you have both the interaction with the natural world,

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Speaker 2: and therefore you can see yourself leaning more towards these

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Speaker 2: embodiments of nature, nature spirits, nature guardians, nature deities. But

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Speaker 2: then you are also in a highly social environment, you know,

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Speaker 2: working with people, trusting people, having weird feelings about how

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Speaker 2: your foreman is treating you, and so forth. And all

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Speaker 2: of that seems like maybe a little richer area for

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Speaker 2: the devils to do their work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I guess the other thing to stress, you know,

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Speaker 2: talking about how different people have characterized these things. I

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Speaker 2: guess this is always the problem when you have you know,

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Speaker 2: at some later point an academic or a best eerie

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Speaker 2: rider wants to categorize everything something that existed in an

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Speaker 2: oral tradition and may you know, differ from mind to mine,

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Speaker 2: from storyteller to storyteller, and even you know, situation to situation.

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Speaker 3: I think you can get a lot of things exactly

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Speaker 3: like that, where something is much more in the fairy

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Speaker 3: folk mold, in how it is discussed among the people,

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Speaker 3: that's its oral tradition mode of being. And then when

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Speaker 3: it's time for someone to come along and catalog that

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Speaker 3: belief in a book, it gets very much recategorized in

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Speaker 3: the theological framing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we want to know what is its challenge rating?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Is it a fairy or is it a devil? You

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Speaker 2: have to tell me faye or you know, infernal fay

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Speaker 2: or fiend? Which is it?

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Speaker 3: Well, I've got another little alley to go down if

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Speaker 3: you want to play some more fair fiend games. Would

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Speaker 3: you like to look at some creatures of Scandinavian mining folklore,

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Speaker 3: Let's do it, okay? So for this I turned to

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Speaker 3: a book called Scandinavian Folk Belief and Legend by a

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Speaker 3: couple of scholars named Rymond Kevitaland and Henning K. Simsdorf.

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Speaker 3: This book is from the University of Minnesota Press, nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty eight, and the authors note that while mining legends

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Speaker 3: are prolific throughout continental Europe, they're actually a little bit

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Speaker 3: less common, though still present in Scandinavia. So they were

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Speaker 3: able to collect five different varieties of mining legend here

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Speaker 3: based on accounts from different times in places from Sweden

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Speaker 3: and Norway. It seems mostly collected in the first half

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Speaker 3: of the twentieth century. So in contrast to the most

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Speaker 3: common subterranean mining spirit found elsewhere in Europe, which as

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Speaker 3: we discussed last time, was usually this elf like being

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Speaker 3: shaped like a tiny old man, the creature that haunts

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Speaker 3: a mine in Norway or Sweden is most often described

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Speaker 3: as a solitary female being, often a fine lady. There

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Speaker 3: are a few examples here that go by different names.

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Speaker 3: You have the Groovra, the ruler of the mine, the

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Speaker 3: groove Froken, the Lady of the Mine, or the Soulvmora,

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Speaker 3: the Silver Mother. Almost exactly like the Tommy Knocker and

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Speaker 3: other spirits we've discussed, the spectral Lady of the Mind

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Speaker 3: has a dual nature. In some tellings, she is benign

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Speaker 3: and even helpful, leading the miner to loads of ore

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Speaker 3: or protecting him from danger. But in other situations she

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Speaker 3: is a jealous guardian of the riches of the earth,

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Speaker 3: and she can cause disaster and strike the greedy miner dead.

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Speaker 3: In addition to the Lady of the Mine and the

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Speaker 3: Silver Mother, there are also stories in Scandinavian legend that

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Speaker 3: depict mythological beings as miners themselves. For example, mythical dwarves

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Speaker 3: are often depicted as in dustus miners and smiths, and

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Speaker 3: they could carry dangerous and powerful magic of their own.

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Speaker 3: So the authors include a few specific tales. First, I'll

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Speaker 3: mention a couple having to do with a lone female

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Speaker 3: mining spirit like the Silver Mother. One story from Middle

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Speaker 3: Sweden involves silver miners in a place called Holifores Forest.

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Speaker 3: The story goes when the mine first opened up, the

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Speaker 3: miners worked for a while without finding much, but then

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Speaker 3: one day they heard the voice of a lady calling

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Speaker 3: out to them. It was a woman's voice, and she said,

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Speaker 3: keep to the left, otherwise you disturb the foot of

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Speaker 3: my bed. These miners were, you know, they paid heed

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Speaker 3: to the voice. They followed her instructions, keeping to the

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Speaker 3: left of the pit, and what do you know, they

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Speaker 3: struck silver. So turned out well for them. Who knows

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Speaker 3: what would have happened if they had done otherwise, Maybe

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Speaker 3: they would have angered the silver mother. Another story collected

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Speaker 3: from near the same place in the Swedish province of

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Speaker 3: Vostmanland call. This one was called the Lady of the

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Speaker 3: mine warned them. It goes like this quote. In Clack Mountain,

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Speaker 3: there was a mining pit called Sunshine Mountain. My father

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Speaker 3: heard from my grandfather who worked there in his time,

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Speaker 3: that one day the miners had emerged from the mine

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Speaker 3: and were eating their noon meal in a shack. Suddenly

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Speaker 3: a fine lady appeared and said, go down into the shaft,

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Speaker 3: pick up your gear, and go home. The older men

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Speaker 3: did as she told them, but the younger fellows just

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Speaker 3: laughed and stayed. The mine collapsed and they were all

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Speaker 3: buried under the rocks. It was the lady of the mine,

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Speaker 3: who had warned them whenever she showed herself, a miner

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Speaker 3: would lose his life. Interesting detail here. The old men

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Speaker 3: listen and are saved, the young men ignore her and die.

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Speaker 3: Are the old men simply more cautious or is it

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Speaker 3: that the old men have respect for the legend and

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Speaker 3: thus are saved.

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Speaker 2: Ah, you know, I think it's probably both. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the youth of today they just don't listen to to

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Speaker 2: the Silver Mother like like like the old codgers know

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Speaker 2: how to do.

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Speaker 3: What did the young men think the Silver Mother was?

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Speaker 3: Was she just like, oh, that's just a crazy, random

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Speaker 3: lady coming out of the mine.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe you know what it probably is,

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Speaker 2: you know, getting back to some of what we were

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Speaker 2: discussing in the last episode and discussing in this one.

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Speaker 2: It probably comes back to that gut understanding of the mine.

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Speaker 2: It sounds, it's in some cases it smells, you know,

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Speaker 2: being able to sort of feel the mine, and the

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Speaker 2: young people they just don't have the experience and or

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Speaker 2: they're more brash, whereas the old men like they've been

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Speaker 2: down there in the mine long enough. I mean, they

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Speaker 2: didn't they didn't become old miners by not listening to

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Speaker 2: the mine.

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Speaker 3: As George Orwell reports, they can feel the weight upon them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, okay, So we have the Silver Mother leading

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Speaker 3: you to or and the Silver Mother warning you of danger.

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Speaker 3: And then finally they also include a short remembrance from

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Speaker 3: a place called the Nasa Mine, near the border between

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Speaker 3: Norway and Sweden, and that goes like this. Nils Olsen

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Speaker 3: from then from northern Rana tells how his father once

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Speaker 3: went over to look at the minds of Nasa. As

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Speaker 3: it turned out, he stayed away for quite a long time,

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Speaker 3: and when he finally returned, the people were just getting

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Speaker 3: ready to come after him. They had feared that the

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Speaker 3: Silver Mother in Nasa had taken him. So here the

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Speaker 3: Silver Mother herself seems to be the threat, a malicious

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Speaker 3: figure who in fact in the story does not harm anyone,

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Speaker 3: but the people assumed could seize you on a solitary

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Speaker 3: survey and make you disappear forever. But fortunately the father

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Speaker 3: and the story was spare. Okay. Now a couple more

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Speaker 3: Scandinavian tales in the other tradition, not the Lady of

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Speaker 3: the mines or the Silver Mother, but the spirits and

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Speaker 3: beings who are minor themselves, or at least make some

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Speaker 3: claim over the ore in the mine. One of them

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Speaker 3: is a story collected from Norway concerning a place called

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Speaker 3: Klett Mountain, a mountain with silver hidden inside it. The

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Speaker 3: main character of the story is a ferryman who works

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Speaker 3: a boat taking people across a nearby sound. One day,

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Speaker 3: two men come over and hire him to take them

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Speaker 3: across the sound, and one of them is carrying a

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Speaker 3: load of silver so big it almost sinks the boat.

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Speaker 3: The ferryman asks them where they got all the silver.

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Speaker 3: They tell him it's from Clett Mountain. He asks them

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Speaker 3: if there is more silver still in the mountain. They say, yes,

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Speaker 3: there's a bunch more there, and they tell him the

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Speaker 3: secret of where to find it. But when the boat

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Speaker 3: reaches the other shore, the two miners disembark, and as

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Speaker 3: soon as they leave the boat, they vanish into thin air.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if the implication is that they were

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Speaker 3: actually dwarves, but there was some kind of spectral miner here,

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Speaker 3: you know, they knew where to get the ore, and

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Speaker 3: they gave him the secret, and then they're gone.

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Speaker 2: And here well outside of the mine too. Yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: That's like if you were to encounter spectral dwarves on

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Speaker 2: Wall Street. Yeah, yeah, trading in like silver stocks or something.

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Speaker 2: And then like where did they go? Oh they were dwarves.

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Speaker 3: The taxi driver, yeah yeah, that drops them off and

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Speaker 3: they disappear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then finally, here's one last story, also collected from

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Speaker 3: vast Minland in Sweden in nineteen oh two. I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to read this one directly. This one is called

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Speaker 3: he lost his eyesight quote. According to legend, the copper

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Speaker 3: deposits at Leunsnarberg were discovered at the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: seventeenth century by a man named Martin Finn. One day

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Speaker 3: he went fishing and slept by his fire. He was

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Speaker 3: awakened by the sound of hammering and pounding in the mountain.

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Speaker 3: A rough voice shouted the first, who are treasure? A

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Speaker 3: spies will lose both eyes. When he pushed aside the

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Speaker 3: coals to quench the fire, the rock was laid bare

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Speaker 3: and there glistened the copper. But as soon as the

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Speaker 3: exploitation of the find began, Martin Finn went blind. So

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Speaker 3: that story is interesting because there's some ambiguity, at least

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Speaker 3: to me, in the way it's being told. I think, though,

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Speaker 3: I am not sure that this should be interpreted as

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Speaker 3: another example of supernatural miners, or at least supernatural claimants

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Speaker 3: to the discovery of the ore there. But it could

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Speaker 3: also be like supernatural guardians or protectors of the mind,

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Speaker 3: more like the Silver Mother. I guess it depends on

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Speaker 3: how you interpret the sound of the hammering and pounding

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Speaker 3: that woke Martin up. Was that the sound of the

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Speaker 3: beings that cursed him pounding the rock trying to reach

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Speaker 3: the ore first? In other words, is the speaker of

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Speaker 3: the curse a competing spectral miner, or was that hammering

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Speaker 3: the sound of human mind workers or explorers who were

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Speaker 3: there at the same time as Martin. If it's the latter,

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Speaker 3: I think you could interpret this more like the malevolent

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Speaker 3: version of the Silver Mother, like I am the spiritual

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Speaker 3: owner or guardian of this mine, and I will curse

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Speaker 3: and punish the first person who finds the ore I

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Speaker 3: have hidden there. But it reads to me more like

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Speaker 3: these are you know, the dwarfs or whatever other spectral beings.

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Speaker 3: They want the ore, They want to get there first.

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Speaker 3: You know that I saw it first, and if you

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Speaker 3: lay your eyes on it, I will punish.

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Speaker 2: You supernatural competition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was trying to think, are there any

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Speaker 3: consistent moral themes in this Scandinavian mining lore like we

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Speaker 3: saw in the early Cornish legends of the Tommy Knockers,

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Speaker 3: Because remember in the Cornish examples, there were moral punishments,

359
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Speaker 3: and what was punished was disrespect of the knockers themselves,

360
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Speaker 3: excessive curiosity like spying on the spirits, or excessive greed

361
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Speaker 3: and ambition trying to take more than your fair share

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Speaker 3: or trying to swindle the spirits. By contrast, I tried

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Speaker 3: to actually separate out what is being punished in the

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Speaker 3: three Scandinavian examples here that feature punishment or feature the

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Speaker 3: threat of punishment. In one, it seems to be simply

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Speaker 3: looking at the minds, like trespassing or possibly spying. That

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Speaker 3: could be a curiosity punishment, but it could also just

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Speaker 3: be a jealous guardianship of the mind. In another, it

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Speaker 3: seems to be not listening to the warning of the

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Speaker 3: Silver Mother. This might actually not be seen as a

371
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Speaker 3: punishment but merely a consequence. And in the third, it

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Speaker 3: is accidentally laying eyes on or that the spirits either

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Speaker 3: guard or seek to extract themselves, and this one to

374
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Speaker 3: me doesn't feel like a moral punishment. It seems just random.

375
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Speaker 3: So I think there's really no evidence here of punishment

376
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Speaker 3: for greed or excessive ambition. The magical violence feels more capricious,

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Speaker 3: random and purely dangerous.

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Speaker 2: M yeah, as in keeping with a natural force.

379
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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. And I was also thinking about the silver

380
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Speaker 3: Does the fact that it is a regal, somber, solitary

381
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Speaker 3: woman change anything, comparing it to the idea of a

382
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Speaker 3: cadre of mischievous, diminutive, old gray bearded men. Does that

383
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Speaker 3: change how the legend is received and told by the

384
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Speaker 3: people who believe in it. And I would note also

385
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Speaker 3: that the curses here are more acute than we saw

386
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Speaker 3: in the Cornish legends, because if you remember the original

387
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 3: Cornish Tommy Knockers, they would curse you if you crossed them,

388
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Speaker 3: but that curse tended to be bad luck or bad

389
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Speaker 3: luck in mining. If the Silver Mother or any of

390
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Speaker 3: these Scandinavian beings curse you, it seems more likely to

391
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Speaker 3: mean violent death or being struck blind, something really acute.

392
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Speaker 3: And that's more like the later American evolution of the

393
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Speaker 3: Tommy Knockers, which tended to give omens about death and disaster.

394
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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is interesting to think about. They're more likely

395
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Speaker 2: to be like little Gromlin type creatures or or little

396
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Speaker 2: men if they are just cursing your luck. But then

397
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Speaker 2: if we're looking at it as a like a death

398
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Speaker 2: dealer or or death itself, then you know, what does

399
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Speaker 2: it mean that it is gendered and given this kind

400
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Speaker 2: of you know, almost the stature of a goddess. Yeah,

401
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: I've I've been thinking about that recently. You know, we

402
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: see you know, feminine versions of death in various cultures,

403
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: in pop culture as well, and like what does that mean? Yeah,

404
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 2: valkyries are a great example. What does that mean? You know,

405
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Speaker 2: looking I guess considering like the the heteronormative male view

406
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Speaker 2: on sexuality, is it is it an eroticism of death

407
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: or is it something more maternal? I mean is it

408
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: all these things? You know? And then what what service

409
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Speaker 2: does it do? Does it kind of lessen the blow

410
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: uh or the fear of an approaching death? You know?

411
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Speaker 2: I want to change the subject. I want to come

412
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Speaker 2: back to something that I was thinking very early on

413
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Speaker 2: in this and that is that J. R. R. Tolkienah

414
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: for the student of European myth of course, nicely explored

415
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: and reused many of these concepts with his depictions of

416
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Speaker 2: the dwarves of Kaza Doom later known as Moria who digged,

417
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: who were digging too greedily and too deep in the

418
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: relentless mining for the precious metal mythrill, and of course,

419
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 2: you know, unlocked their own doom and released the ball

420
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Speaker 2: Rock upon them.

421
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great connection, and it seems to have

422
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 3: a lot in common with some of these tellings, though

423
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Speaker 3: I would note that Tolkien actually makes the legend much

424
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: more epic and grim. You know, the warning of awaking

425
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Speaker 3: this demon of the ancient world, something that is more

426
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: dangerous than anything you've ever seen, does seem it seems

427
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: like it goes much further beyond any of these actual

428
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: old bits of folklore where the worst thing that's going

429
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 3: to happen is like there's a being that causes a

430
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Speaker 3: cave in or seizes you in the mine, and it's

431
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 3: just sort of death. I mean, it's not it doesn't

432
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Speaker 3: have this epic monstrous form like.

433
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Speaker 2: The ball Rog. Yeah, the Ballrog is like the destroyer

434
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: or ultimately a civilization like it did, you know, it's

435
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: that level of threat to the dwarves that unlock it.

436
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 2: All right, Well, it makes sense that next we're going

437
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: to be diving a bit into German legend here, and

438
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: like all these things that you know, all these concepts

439
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: have some degree of interconnectedness, and you know, Scandinavian and

440
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: Norse mythology has strong connections going into German mythology and folklore.

441
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: So I want to talk about one that was new

442
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: to me that I found very exciting, and that is

443
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: der berg Munch, which is translated as the mountain monk

444
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: or even the mine monk. More often than not, I

445
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: found this entity described as the mine monk amazing.

446
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 3: Let's let's hear about this monk.

447
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: So one of the main sources I turned to for

448
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: this was the work of the brothers grim In. There

449
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: were a couple of volumes that they put out titled

450
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: German Legend in eighteen sixteen, in eighteen eighteen, and I

451
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: was working from a nineteen eighty one translation by Donald Ward.

452
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, so we have the mind monk here. Sometimes

453
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: he's given a proper name, meister Hammerling or something like

454
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: Master of Hammering, you know, other times mountain monk, mind monk,

455
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: and so forth. And concerning the translation here I found

456
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: I have to stress this is something that's not directly

457
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: about the mind Monk, but is talking about a German

458
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: poem that references the mind Monk, and how we might

459
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: translate that into English. This was from nineteen twenty two.

460
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: Leonard Dhalty commented on the translation of the name meister

461
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 2: Hammerling in the poetry of nineteenth century German poet Henrik Heine,

462
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: and this is from notes on Translating Heina from the

463
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: Texas Review. Basically, the author here notes that there are

464
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: a few different possible meanings tied up in the name.

465
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: So first of all, is it is on its own

466
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: like a hateful gnome or cobalt who hammers underground. We've

467
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: been talking about this throughout these episodes. And is therefore

468
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: like a trickster, a devil, or even a clown. You know,

469
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: there's a sins, there's a there's a wide spectrum by

470
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: which this entity might manifest. The hammer also in German,

471
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: takes on the connotation of bully. Apparently that's something to

472
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: consider as well when when a hammer or the Hammerling

473
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: is mentioned. And the poem in question that the author

474
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: is commenting on here in concerns a passage where the

475
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 2: poet is pleading for Master Hammerling to build a bridge

476
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: for the poet, like, you know, like hey, master of Hammering,

477
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: build me a bridge. And sometimes in English that gets

478
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: transmitted into Hangman, apparently because I guess English readers aren't

479
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: going to necessarily pick up on the mind monk thing,

480
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: and you need some sort of ominous press like that

481
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 2: you were calling to, like hey, hey Hangman, or even

482
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: like hey, Death, build me a bridge. So I found

483
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: that interesting and perhaps speaks to the intimidating nature of

484
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: the monk in question, because descriptions of this entity sound

485
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: rather intimidating. We're not talking about a little person here.

486
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: We're talking about a gigantic figure in a dark robe,

487
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: a giant. And the Grim's right that he frequently appears

488
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: in several different minds that he mentions. One is the

489
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Gara Bunden Alps, but especially on Fridays, that's when you

490
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: will find him in the in the shafts. He's generally

491
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: seen there emptying a bucket of ore into another bucket

492
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: and then back again. So once more we have this

493
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: idea of the supernatural entity in the mind creating a racket,

494
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: messing with the tools and equipment, but not getting any

495
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: work done.

496
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: Okay, we've seen this before.

497
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in this case, you know, basically, the Grims

498
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: tell a few different stories, and the Grimms explained that

499
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: the mine owner in this particular case was well aware

500
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: of this particular spirit and made sure everyone left him alone, Like,

501
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: don't object to what he's doing. It seems pointless, but

502
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: just leave him alone and he won't harness. And so

503
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 2: he kept to himself, didn't cause any trouble. But then,

504
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: of course, one day a reckless miner, probably a young miner,

505
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: scolded and cursed at the mine monk, and this did

506
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: not go well for him. They explained that the giant

507
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: hooded figure lunged at this reckless I assume youth. They

508
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: pick him up, It picks him up and then shakes

509
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: him so severely that his face turns inside out. Like

510
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: it doesn't kill him, but for the rest of his

511
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: life he walks around with an inside out face.

512
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: Just one curse of that monk and your inside out.

513
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, how are we supposed to interpret this? I

514
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 2: couldn't find a lot of scholarly breakdown on this. This

515
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: is not a grim story that's translated a lot apparently,

516
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: but you know, we can easily imagine this as being

517
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: a description of a very real disfigurement from a mining accident.

518
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: It could very well just be a magical, you know,

519
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: inversion of the face, or it could be something related

520
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: to trauma, you know, some sort of like a look

521
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: of fear locked into the facial features or something. All Right,

522
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: So there are more mind monk stories, though they share

523
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: some accounts of the annamine. They say a dozen men

524
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: were working in the silver rich Rosenkrantz shaft when a

525
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: mine monk appeared, or the mine monk appeared and breathed

526
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: on them, causing them all to drop dead, and the

527
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: shaft was abandoned thereafter.

528
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: Oh and bad breath.

529
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is very interesting too because it speaks

530
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: to the very real dangers of mind gases, which are

531
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: in mind terminology called damps. This comes from the German

532
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: a damph, which means vapor. So we have I was

533
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: not familiar with this, but we have various types of

534
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: damps that can occur in a mine environment. Again, in

535
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: the language and terminology of miners, you have fire damp.

536
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: This is a gas that occurs naturally in coal seams.

537
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: It's apparently nearly always methane, highly flammable and explosive at

538
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: higher concentrations. Then we have white damp or carbon monoxide,

539
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: particularly toxic and perhaps a reasonable fit for the breath

540
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: of the mine bunk because the correct or the wrong concentrations,

541
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: it can cause death within a few minutes, and this

542
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: is a risk, particularly in coal mines. We have black damp.

543
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: This is a situation where the atmosphere won't allow you

544
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: to light a lamp, usually because of an excess of

545
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: carbon dioxide and nitrogen in the air. Then there's stink

546
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: damp hydrogen sulfide, so you have the smell, the rotten

547
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: egg smell. And then there's after damp, and this is

548
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: a mixture of gases found in a mine after an

549
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: explosion or a fire.

550
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: So a lot of different gas hazards occurring in a mine.

551
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I like this idea of presenting one

552
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: of these damps, again, probably white damp, as like the

553
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: killing breath weapon of the mind monk. Yeah, though in

554
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: this case, I don't, you know, it doesn't sound like

555
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: they did anything to particularly offend the mind monk except

556
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: maybe went into a shaft, went into a part of

557
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: the mountain they were not supposed to venture into.

558
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it could be that this story in particular

559
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: has less of a moralistic bent and is instead an

560
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: attempt to magically explain a natural phenomenon exactly.

561
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in most of these stories, I'll get to

562
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: one where the mind Monk talks, But most of the

563
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: time it seems like the mind Monk doesn't speak. You

564
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: just encounter it. It's fearsome to look at, and you know,

565
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: hope that he just continues to pour oar from one

566
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: bucket to another and doesn't breathe on you. Now, let's

567
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: see a few other tails of the mind Monk. They

568
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: mentioned that in the Ana Mine, the mine Monk appeared

569
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: as well, in the shape of a steed with a

570
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: long neck and terrifying eye, so an alternate form here.

571
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: And in the Saint George Mine it said that he

572
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: appeared in his standard form, you know, the tall, black

573
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: robed giant grabbed a young miner, lifted him up into

574
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: a silver rich shaft, and then sat him back down

575
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: so violently that he injured all of the youth's limbs.

576
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: And in the Harz Mountains, the mind Monk was said

577
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: to punish a foreman who was cruel to his workers

578
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: by positioning himself above the entrance to a particular shaft,

579
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: and when the foreman emerged beneath him, he caught the

580
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: man's head between his legs and crushed his skull. Whoa, Okay, yeah,

581
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: so now we have a little bit of the like

582
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: the moral even you could maybe say devil work of

583
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: the entity here because he's punishing a cruel foreman. Yeah

584
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: all right. But the best story, and this is one

585
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: where the mine monk speaks, is the tale they tell

586
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: of the mind monk of the Harz Mountains, which I

587
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: found some nice similarities between this and the Japanese ghost

588
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: story concerning the Yuki. Oh no, the Lady of the Snow.

589
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 3: Is this the story of the woman whose secret is

590
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 3: kept for many years but then when the secret is revealed.

591
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and she's at once like a natural force,

592
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: but also she takes pity on mortals, but you know

593
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: it does ask for that secrecy in return.

594
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 3: Okay, let's hear it.

595
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: Okay. So in this story, we have a pair of miners.

596
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: They work as a team, and they descended into their

597
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: shaft one day and then uh oh, they realized that

598
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: they didn't have enough lamp oil to complete their shift.

599
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: They'd have to go all the way back home to

600
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: get more lamp oil, and of course that was just

601
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: going to tick off the mine foreman in the process.

602
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: So it seemed like a real losing situation. Yeah, but

603
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: then what occurs, Well, they see a light appearing down

604
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: the shaft, deeper in the shaft, you know, coming from

605
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: a you know, deeper into the mountain, and blow and behold,

606
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: approaching them is a towering figure in a black robe

607
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: carrying a miner's lamp. It is the mine monk, and

608
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: the two miners are of course terrified here, but the

609
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: mine monk actually speaks to them and tells them not

610
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: to be afraid. Quote, do not fear. I shall do

611
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: you no harm. But rather good, All right, what's he

612
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: gonna do? Well, he pours some of his lamp oil

613
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 2: into their lamps, and then he grabs their tools and

614
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: begins to work, doing a week's worth of work in

615
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 2: a single hour. It seems like a good deal. Yeah, yeah,

616
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna read another passage here. Tell no one that

617
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: you have seen me here, he says, and then he

618
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: slammed his fist against the shaft wall, which shattered, revealing

619
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: a long vein sparkling with pure gold and silver. So

620
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: once more, you know, a spirit of the mountain revealing

621
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: a rich vein of treasure inside the wall.

622
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 3: It's like boone, boone, boone. He gives them the oil,

623
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: but in fact they didn't even necessarily need the oil,

624
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 3: because he did all the work for them for a

625
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: whole week's worth, and then is like, here as a bonus,

626
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: here's another vein.

627
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really hit the jackpot with this sky. Yeah.

628
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes the mind Monk breathes toxic death on you. Other

629
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: times he just gives you gift after unearned gift.

630
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: Uh.

631
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: But this one. It gets a little weird here because

632
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: at this point the gold and silver is so blinding,

633
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: so dazzling, that the two mortal miners have to look away,

634
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: and when they look back, the mind Monk and the

635
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: vein of riches are gone. The grims here add that

636
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: if these miners had been quicker, they might have heaved

637
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: a pick into the shaft that had been opened or

638
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: the vein that had been opened, but it was too late,

639
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: so they didn't get the full riches and the mine

640
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: that the mine monk had revealed to them. But the

641
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: oil in their lanterns proved inexhaustible and it gave them.

642
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: This of course, gave them a huge advantage over other miners.

643
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: Other miners their lamps can run dry and then they

644
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: have to go out and get more lamp oil. But

645
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 2: these two, their lamps have been blessed by the mine

646
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: Monk's lamp oil, and they'll just burn, you know, without end.

647
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: That seems even better than the vein, right, I mean,

648
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 3: you can use that the rest of your life.

649
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the mine Monk did say, hell, no one

650
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 2: that you have seen me here. And one Saturday night,

651
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: what do they do. They're out drinking with their friends

652
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: and the tavern and they tell the whole story. They

653
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: end up breaking their word to the mine Monk, and

654
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: the magical oil in their lanterns promptly gives out. So,

655
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 2: I mean it's terms in terms of bad things that

656
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: could happen after encountering the mine Monk, this isn't too bad.

657
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: They just basically lost the boon that the entity had

658
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: given them. And it's similar to what occurs in the

659
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: Lady of the Snow. You know she in most tellings anyway,

660
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: she does not kill the man who has finally revealed

661
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: what happened on that fateful night during the snowstorm. But

662
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 2: she does leave him, and I believe takes the children

663
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: that she has had with him as well.

664
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: But it's not in this story like the mine monk

665
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 3: breathes on them.

666
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: Now they're told, yeah, they told, so they lost the

667
00:37:53,360 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: magical lamp oil that he had given. So I like

668
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: how we see in this tale of the mind monk.

669
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 2: Several were these various tales in the mind monks, several

670
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: recurring themes of mind shaft entities. We got that pointless

671
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: labor that is sometimes beneficial, a power not to be offended,

672
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: revelation of riches, deadly gas lights in the dark, and

673
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: also sudden violent action not unlike a cave in or

674
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: various other related events. There are various sorts of rapid

675
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: high release energy phenomena inside of a mine that could

676
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: stand in for, you know, one of these encounters where

677
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: again like the mind monk is picking you up and

678
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: shaking you, or even like picking you up and putting

679
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: you in, sticking you into a shaft and then dropping

680
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: you back down again. You have things like mind trimmers

681
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: and rock burds, seismic events, methane, cold dust explosions, and

682
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: ground falls. As for the lights, you know, you have

683
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: sensory deprivation that might result in visual hallucinations in a

684
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: mining environment, but then also methane or cold dust explosions,

685
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: open flame ignitions, and even electrical arcing and lightning strikes

686
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: in mines. This is apparently a significant risk for some

687
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: mining operations, which you know, might seem counterintuitive to a

688
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: lot of folks that you know, don't know anything about mining.

689
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: You would think, oh, you're underground, you're safe. Not necessarily

690
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: the case. And then mythologically, I can only assume there

691
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: is at least some connection here between again the towering

692
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: mine monks and tales of stone giants such as you

693
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: know the ootin of Norse myth which included yes, like

694
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: storm giants and so forth, but also and ice giants,

695
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: but also mountain giants divided between mountain dwellers and cliff giants.

696
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: A number of Norse mythological concepts find their way into

697
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: German traditions, and this includes the figure of Rubsol or

698
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: the Lord of the Mountains, and there are various versions

699
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: of him and other European traditions as well. Joe I

700
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: included a painting of this character rubes All, the Lord

701
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: of the Mountains here. This is from eighteen fifty nine

702
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: by Morse von Schvend. I believe I'd seen this before

703
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: in a book from my childhood. Maybe it was one

704
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: of those fantastic legends from time life books, a series

705
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: on giants. But you know, we see like a monk

706
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: type figure with a jutting beard just walking through the

707
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: forest here.

708
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 3: Looks like he's wearing flip flops.

709
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, some sort of old timey crocs.

710
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I like it.

711
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: So I have two more entities I want to discuss here,

712
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: and there were international entities which I think roalms things

713
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 2: out rather nicely. The first I want to bring up

714
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: is Lteo of Bolivia. The author Luke Fodder explored this

715
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: one in a twenty nineteen Atlas Obscure article that has

716
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: some great photographs with it as well. So basically, the

717
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: practices associated with this entity occur in the silver mines

718
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: Osirio Rico in the Bolivian Andes and here otherwise Catholic

719
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 2: Christian local miners leave cigarettes at the base of some

720
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 2: apparently six hundred shrines to alto, which I believe translates

721
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: to the uncle, and this is a goatish, devil looking

722
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: figure with horns like red skin, a goateee, and generally

723
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: a jutting erection. They'll soak his impish likeness in alcohol

724
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: lah blah. Blood is apparently offered once a year as well.

725
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: There are some different accounts of that. And then you

726
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: also will make offerings of cigarettes or even light a

727
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 2: cigarette in his lips, and the degree to which the

728
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: cigarette burns down might be a sign of good luck.

729
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: From what I understand, lt O. Much like many of

730
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: these other figures we've been talking about, is is a

731
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 3: being of both blessings and curses that you know you

732
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: can you can do well by appeasing him, or you

733
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 3: could incur wrath and danger by not appeasing him.

734
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely getting into this idea of its standing

735
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: as a kind of nature entity. So, as Fodder explains

736
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: in the art, there seem to be several forces at

737
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: work with the genesis of this practice. So under Spanish

738
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: rule colonial rule, the mountain was mined under just really

739
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: brutal conditions, he writes, quote between four and eight million

740
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: Kachuan Indians and enslaved Africans died mining the mountain, and

741
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 2: among other names, the mountain was known as the Mountain

742
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 2: that Eats men. So brutal conditions here, and you had

743
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: this influx too of Christianity and its devil likeicnography, melding

744
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: of course with local folk beliefs and those of enslaved

745
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: people from Africa, again in a dangerous environment. I think

746
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: that's one of the things that's so captivating about any

747
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: of these mining tales is that we have folkloric elements

748
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: being developed and nurtured, like right at the edge of

749
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: life and death. I mean, that's often the case, I

750
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: guess in life anyway, actual life and death scenarios, perceived

751
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: life and death scenarios. But in the mind everything feels

752
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: perhaps heightened, right, It's like it's a pressure for folkloric belief.

753
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I guess there is a temptation sometimes to

754
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 3: think of the creativity that drives the emergence of new

755
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 3: pieces of folklore, creatures and stories as coming from an

756
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 3: environment of ease and idleness. When do you make up stories?

757
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 3: Maybe when when you're chilling, when you've got nothing else

758
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: to do, not much to worry about, but no in fact,

759
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 3: in reality, people are often making up the most interesting

760
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 3: in creative stories. Folklore is developing under really harsh conditions,

761
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: under times when people are facing threats of death or

762
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: when they've got, you know, a lot to worry about.

763
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's the case. Yeah, you may,

764
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: you may make up the story or elements the story

765
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: when in your leisure time when things are nice. But

766
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: when things are bad, when maybe when the Silver Mother

767
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: is not too far off in the distance, that's when

768
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 2: you find out what the story means.

769
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: Uh.

770
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: So, I don't know, it's interesting to think about here.

771
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: But coming back to lt O here, Yeah, there apparently

772
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: seems to be a strong sense that in order to

773
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: take from the mountain, to take silver from the mountain,

774
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 2: you have to give back to the spirit of the mountain.

775
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: And that's what these offerings to lt O or about.

776
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: That it's ultimately a force that might bring good luck

777
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: or terrible doom, depending on how you've honored and respected him.

778
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: And so, you know, clearly influenced by some visual ideas

779
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: concerning the Christian devil, but he seems very rooted in

780
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: indigenous ideas of earth deities and the entities Phallus would

781
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: seem to speak to this as well. You know that

782
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: he's an entity that is associated with sometimes doom, but

783
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: also life, But where does that life spring from? It

784
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: would seem to be more elemental in nature.

785
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's another mining related entity from the and Dan

786
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: region known as Muki that has some characteristics in common

787
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: with lto here. But the Muki in the Indian minds

788
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: is a being that sometimes, like many of the other

789
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: stories we've talked about, sometimes can lead people to riches

790
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: or sometimes can lead them to danger and curses.

791
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: All right, I have one more I want to mention here,

792
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: and this is one that I was initially reading about

793
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 2: in Carol Rose's book of Fairies and Leprechauns. She brings

794
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 2: up an example of a spirit that is also tied

795
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: to both virility, again coming back to the phallus of Altio,

796
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: but is also associated with mines, and that is the

797
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: trickster spirit essue of the Yoruba people of Nigeria. So

798
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: apparently he according to de Rose, I'm going to caveat

799
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 2: this in a minute. This entity is portrayed as both

800
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: a trickster and a protector, is the patron of both

801
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: mothers and childbirth. And miners in Nigerian coal fields, and

802
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: he's depicted as having a large lock of plaited hair

803
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 2: sculpted like a penis. Now elsewhere I've seen this described

804
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: as more of a huge backward curving horn or like

805
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: a horned head dress, and the god, while usually regarded

806
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: as male, also sometimes either takes a fine form or

807
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: features feminine features such as breasts. I've also read Assue

808
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: described as the anger of the gods, and as one

809
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: might expect, religions from Afar, such as Christianity, have often

810
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: attempted to recast Essue as more of a devil figure,

811
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: though clearly he seems to have a more nuanced presence,

812
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: sometimes described as a god of trickery but also a

813
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: god of surprise, and I found that really interesting. But

814
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: again a god that, according to these sources, was both

815
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 2: associated with mining but also childbirth and surprise.

816
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, so interesting that figures associated from mining with from

817
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 3: all these different parts of the world and different cultures,

818
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: have a few things seemingly in common. One is the

819
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 3: bivalent nature that they can represent either dangers or boons

820
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: and blessings, that they might be helpful or they might

821
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 3: be harmful, and also that they are so often associated

822
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 3: with tricks and miss pranks. Yeah, that seems like that

823
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like I mean, obviously I don't have I'm

824
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 3: not a miner, so I have no experience in the mind.

825
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 3: But you I think the lay person who has no

826
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: experience would not assume a natural connection between the environment

827
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 3: of a mine and the concept of tricks, trickster behavior

828
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 3: or mischief or pranks. But that does seem to be

829
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: very common.

830
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And as I mentioned in the last episode,

831
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure we have some listeners out there who are

832
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: miners or have been in the mining business before. If

833
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: that's the case, I would love to hear from anyone

834
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: out there if you have particular insight on the just

835
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: the headspace of of miners. If not some of these

836
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: traditions or remnants of these traditions that may may or

837
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: may not still exist today. I mean some of them

838
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: definitely do. But I again, I would just like to

839
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 2: hear from from actual folks out there who have real

840
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: life experience in the.

841
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: Minds contact at Stuff to blow your mind dot com.

842
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: All right, where we're gonna go ahead and close off

843
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: this shaft for today, But we'd love to hear from

844
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 2: everyone out there, if you have some favorite mind spirits

845
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 2: that we didn't cover in this episode, also right in

846
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 2: with that, or anything from like the wide world of

847
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: you know, pop culture, magic things inspired. You know, we

848
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: mentioned dungeons and dragons a bit, but you know, any

849
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 2: other fantasy spin on any of these concepts that we

850
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you on that as well.

851
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: Just to remind it that Stuff to Blow Your Mind

852
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

853
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short form episode

854
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we set aside most serious

855
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird

856
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: House Cinema.

857
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

858
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

859
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

860
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

861
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 3: you can email us as always at contact at stuff

862
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.