1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 2: This seems so anomalous, and the house had seemed so 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: well secured with the great wall around it, and it 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: seemed like the safest place to have a child and 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: to protect a child. 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: behind the stories. The brutal murder of a three year 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: old shocked Victorian England, not only because of how it happened, 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: but because of who the police suspected. Could one of 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Britain's most famous detectives solve the case. Author Kate Summerskille 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: tells us the story at the center of her book, 21 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: The Suspicions of Mister Witcher. Let's start with where we 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: are in time, what year are we talking about, and 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: where does the central action take place in your story. 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 2: This murder took place in a village in the English 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: countryside in Wiltshire in eighteen sixty, so it was the 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: height of Victoria's reign over Britain and a time when 27 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: the domestic ideal was at his height as well, the 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: idea of the sanctity of the home and the perfection 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: of the sort of bourgeois middle class family. 30 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the village, because we 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: have a largely American audience who I'm sure is picturing idyllic, 32 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, British countryside and the thatched roofs and just 33 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: the beauty of it. Is that what we're talking about. 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: It's not so much that thatched ruse in that part 35 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: of west of England, but very lovely, yes, very sort 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: of lush fields and in the summer of eighteen sixty 37 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: all the sort of harvests were being cut, lots of 38 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: wild flowers and birds, and it's a pretty idyllic hamlet, 39 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: mostly stone houses and the house in which the murder 40 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: took place. Was the grandest house in the village, a 41 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 2: Georgian building with its own grounds and enclosed with a 42 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: high stone wall. 43 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: Tell me what the family dynamic was for people in 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: the eighteen sixties in this particular village. Are we talking about, 45 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, a husband who's a laborer predominantly? Are we 46 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: talking about wealthier people? 47 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: We're talking wealthier people. The patriarch, the father in this household, 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: was a factory inspector, so there was some resentment against 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: him in the village because it was part of his 50 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: job to stop children going into the factories to work, 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: which left many families hard up because they've been relying 52 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: on their children's wages. And he was a sort of 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: bad tempered and quite private man who was not much 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 2: liked by the family. And he lived in the house 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: with his second wife, formerly the governess to his children, 56 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: his first wife having died apparently insane, and with the 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: four children of the first marriage, and also two new children, 58 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: and his wife was pregnant with a third so it 59 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: was a big family and a mixed family. Two families 60 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: in one really. 61 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: Tell me more about the ill tempered part of the 62 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: patriarch of the family. Before we talk a little bit 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: more about all these children and everything that's happening in 64 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: the house. Is someone we would label as physically and 65 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: verbally abusive in modern times. 66 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: He was the standards of his time, conventionally harsh, and 67 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: it was more that he was reputed to be harsh 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: with the villagers, with the people of the lower classes, 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: than with his own family. Traditionally people have been able 70 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: to fish in the river on his land, and he 71 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: banned them from doing so. He excited quite a lot 72 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: of resentment among the locals. 73 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: Now, I would like to go down the rabbit hole 74 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: of the factory inspections. How young are we talking about 75 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: of kids entering the workforce in these factories, and I'm 76 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 1: assuming it's dangerous work. 77 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, extremely young children went into factories from the age 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: of eight or so, and the New Factory Act limited 79 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: the time that young children could work, but also the 80 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: age from which they could work. So I think it 81 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: was they couldn't work at all in the factories until 82 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: they were fourteen, and then there was a limit on 83 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: how many hours per day they could do. It was 84 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: intended to be a humane law that stopped the exploitation 85 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: of child labor, but it hit some poor families very hard, 86 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: and it was Samuel Kent's job, the patriarch in this family, 87 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: to enforce the act, to go into the local mills 88 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: and factories and stop people from working if they were 89 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: under age. 90 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that he was someone who had been offered 91 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: many payoffs in his career. Did you find anything about that? 92 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm assuming people were really trying to get 93 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: him on their side. 94 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: Well, I think perhaps his harshness was part of I 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: think he was a fairly effective factory inspector and played 96 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: by the rules, which is why he was so resented. 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: I didn't come across anything to suggest that he colluded 98 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: with the villagers or the people in the mills. Quite 99 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: the reverse. He was very strict at enforcing the rules, 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: which was why they were so cross with him. 101 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about his wife. What's her name? 102 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: And she was the governess, which I know we've throughout 103 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: history heard about, you know, women coming in and taking 104 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: care of the children or the family, and then when 105 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: the why dies, she marries the husband. What's the feel 106 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: you have of the dynamic between Samuel Kent and his wife. 107 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: Well, she was a much loved governess, especially by Constance Kent, 108 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: the younger daughter, when the mother was alive, but there 109 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 2: were rumors that she had been having an affair even 110 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: during the first wife's life. Her first wife was apparently 111 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: confined to one wing of the house. They were living 112 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: in a different part of the country then, and Mary 113 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: and Samuel Kent were having an affair, which the children 114 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: were unaware of. When Constance later found this out, she 115 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: felt very much betrayed by the governess who was now 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: her new stepmother, and even more so when the new 117 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: stepmother started having her own children and became less affectionate 118 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: towards the children that she had looked after as a governess. 119 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: The children of the first marriage. 120 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: Remind me the distribution between the children from the first 121 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: wife and the children from Mary Kent. Is it two? 122 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: She has two of her own? Is that right? 123 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: Yes, she has two of her own, and she's pregnant 124 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: with a third. In the summer of eighteen sixty and 125 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: there were four from the first marriage, two older girls 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: who are very close in age and very close to 127 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: one another, and then the younger ones, which were Constance 128 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: who was sixteen at the time of the murders, and 129 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: her brother William to whom she was very close, who 130 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: was fourteen. 131 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so we have a lot of people in the house. 132 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: So all of these people are in the house. You've 133 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: got four kids from a previous marriage, two kids from 134 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: the current marriage, plus you know, she's pregnant. Everybody's in 135 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: the same house. And it's a large house. 136 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's servants too, of course, because it was 137 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: that kind of a house. So there was a cook 138 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: and a maid, and there were gardeners coming and going, 139 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: and cobblers and so you know, there was there was 140 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: a lot of traffic from the servants in the house 141 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: and a nurse Mai, a nursemate called Elizabeth Goff who 142 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: featured in the story. 143 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: And a factory inspector would earn that type of income 144 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: to be able to afford this sort of lifestyle with 145 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: all of these servants and kids in a large house. 146 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, he was the factory inspector the whole of 147 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: the West of England. He wasn't just supervising the factories 148 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: and mills in his immediate vicinity. And it was a 149 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: very prosperous kind of wool country. Lots of sheep, lots 150 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: of wool, lots of people making fabric, and it was 151 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: the main trade round there, so he was a busy man. 152 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: He was constantly touring the various different wool mills and factories, 153 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: and it was a highly responsible job, reporting directly to 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: the government. 155 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: And you have the impression that he was a father 156 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: who was a good father, who was affectionate with his kids, 157 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: even if he was absent for a large part of 158 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: the time. 159 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: I don't think he was very affectionate towards his kids, 160 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: but that was standard for a Victorian, middle class patriarch. 161 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: He was very, very fond of his youngest son, Savile, 162 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: with whom he constantly played a lot of horseplay and 163 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: so on. Less interested in the girls, I would say, 164 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: who he allowed to just sort of get on with it. 165 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: He wasn't tyrannical. He was distant and busy, and they 166 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: were left very much in the care of their stepmother 167 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: and the nursemaid. 168 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: Okay, will you lay out whichever day you think becomes pivotal, 169 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, all the way through the murder. Where do 170 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: we start with that part of the story. 171 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: Well, the family woke up one day at the very 172 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 2: end of June and the former governess, new stepmother discovered 173 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: that her son, her youngest son, Saville, was missing from 174 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: his cot. He was just three years old, and seemed 175 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: impossible to believe he'd climbed out. It was a high 176 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: sided cot, so she sort of raised the alarm. She 177 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: asked the nursemaid where he was. She rushed around looking 178 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: for him and raised everyone else from the staff, her stepchildren, 179 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: and everyone was searching for Savil. Eventually villagers were roped 180 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: in invited to come and help search the grounds, and 181 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: eventually two local men found him dead. His throat had 182 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: been cut horribly and he'd been stuffed down and outside 183 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: toilet as privy as they called it, just outside the house. 184 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: So it was an absolutely horrific scene, and the mother 185 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: was beside herself with distress. 186 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that Samuel Kent had a similar reaction. 187 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: Yes, he got on a horse and raced off to 188 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: fetch the local policeman to come and see what had 189 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: happened and work out who had done it. The police 190 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: came quickly and they interviewed the staff, the family, the 191 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: villagers looked for clues tried to work out who it 192 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: might be. They spent two weeks on the case with 193 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: finding any leads whatsoever. Was such a horrific murder, so 194 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: inexplicable and mysterious and striking at the heart of this 195 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: rather affluent, well to do, respectable family, that it was 196 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: a national news story. It was reported in the national papers, 197 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: and eventually there was an outcry about why the police 198 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: had not got anywhere with it. 199 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: Do you think a lot of this has to do 200 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: with their class and of course their skin color. 201 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It was very shocking and it felt 202 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: like an assault on the Victorian domestic ideal. The fuss 203 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: was so great that people were writing to the papers 204 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 2: and very agitated, sending in their own suggestions for who 205 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: might have killed the boy that eventually the government dispatched 206 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: to detective policemen from Scotland Yard to go down to 207 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: Wiltshire to try to solve the case themselves, and one 208 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: of those was Jack Witcher, who had joined the Detective 209 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: Division when it was first formed in eighteen forty two 210 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: and who was known as the Prince of Detectives. He 211 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: had a great reputation as an investigator and a kind 212 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: of visionary who could detect crimes that no one else could. 213 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: Well, I think it'll be interesting, because of course I'm 214 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: very interested in the forensics and who has access to 215 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: what and all of that. But I think we can 216 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: probably talk about through Jack Witcher's eyes, right, because he's 217 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: the one who's investigating the case. Can we talk a 218 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: little bit about where we are with detectives at this time, 219 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, specifically with Scotland Yard. The bost Street runners 220 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: are gone, I'm assuming right. 221 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: Right, And these detectives in the division set up in 222 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:48,359 Speaker 2: eighteen forty two were the first plane clothes police officers 223 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: in Britain and they were very exciting figures in a way. 224 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: To begin with, there were only eight of them. By 225 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: eighteen sixty there were twelve, you know, a very elite call. 226 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: But they were all working classmen. They were ordinary coppers 227 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: who had been elevated to this role because they were 228 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: so good at their jobs. Charles Dickens, for example, was 229 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: extremely thrilled by the detectives and the idea of the detectives. 230 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: He liked to consort with them, drink with them, ask 231 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: them about their adventures because they had this extraordinary access 232 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 2: in a very stratified society. The detective could go anywhere 233 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: from the slums of London to palaces and stately homes 234 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: and like Dickens himself. They could range across the different 235 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: strata of society, but they were also to others threatening 236 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: figures because they were working class and they had this 237 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: unprecedented access and power, and the British had of long 238 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: held mistrust of surveillance and spies, and these playing clothes 239 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: officers who were enable to cross the threshold of the 240 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: family home, who had had this kind of access, were 241 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: seen as sinister and threatening to some. 242 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: What is the difference in the access between you know, 243 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: a regular copper, regular officer who might have to go 244 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: and look into a murder and a detective. No warrants 245 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: needed if you're a detective, or no permission needed. Essentially, well, I. 246 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: Think you need a warrant. But the local police in 247 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: Wiltshire who first investigated this crime, they were very polite 248 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: and deferential to the family. They understood that the family 249 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: were superior to them in social class and that they 250 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: would need to be invited into the home. They would 251 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: ask to come in, They wouldn't demand it, they wouldn't 252 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: take it as a right. So their attitude and the things, 253 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: the questions they asked, the evidence they sought was very different. 254 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: So it was more as sort of attitude and custom 255 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: than the legal force of it that had changed. 256 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: So let me do a quick summary here. So we 257 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: have an eighteen sixty end of June. A three year 258 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: old boy from a wealthy family, savul Kent, has gone 259 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: missing and then has found at the bottom of a 260 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: privy with his throat cut and everybody is in despair. 261 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: It's a couple of weeks and the police have no clues, 262 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: and there's all of this public outrage in the newspapers. 263 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: Not surprising, and we have two detectives from Scotland Yard 264 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: come in. 265 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Jack Witcher and his sidekick, Dolly Williamson, they 266 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: arrived at the house, went in interviewed all the members 267 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: of the family in more detail than the local offices had. 268 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: Jack Witcher realized that the killer must have been inside 269 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: the house because although a window had been firmed open, 270 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: it would have been impossible for anyone to take the 271 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: boy out to gain access through the window, and so 272 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: he thought that the open window was a decoy to 273 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: try to suggest that someone had broken in. He was 274 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: absolutely convinced that the killer was one of the people 275 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: within the building. He interviewed the staff and the family 276 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: very closely and he asked to see their clothes, especially 277 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: their nightclothes and their underwear, the things they might have 278 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: been wearing at the time of the murder in the night, 279 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: and this in itself was seen as outrageous, especially when 280 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: he asked to see the nightclothes and shifts of the 281 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: young ladies in the household. He was literally going through 282 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: their underwear, taking it into public view, and there was 283 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: a certain amount of horror, certainly from Samuel Kent, the father, 284 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: but also people became quite uncomfortable at his intrusion and 285 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: his apparent insensitivity, because most people assumed that this family, 286 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: or each and every one of them was in terrible 287 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: grief over the death of the boy, and he was 288 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: just sort of barging in and asking intimate questions and 289 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: making it clear that every one of them was under suspicion. 290 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: How many viable suspects does he have in that house 291 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: based on the kid's age, because I can't remember the range. 292 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: I know we have a sixteen year old girl, But 293 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: who else is capable in that house besides the parents 294 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: of doing this. 295 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: Well, there's the fourteen year old boy, William. They are 296 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: also the two older sisters, Mary Anne and Elizabeth, who 297 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: were in their late twenties and lived on the top floor. 298 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: Constance and William were just along the corridor from Saville's room. 299 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: Saville's mother was pretty much ruled out as a suspect 300 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 2: because she was well. Not only was she his mother, 301 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: which was thought impossible that she should want to harm 302 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: her child, but she was also heavily pregnant. But the 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: nurse maid came under suspicion she had access to the nursery. 304 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: She had been the first one the mother turned to 305 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 2: and asked where he was. She was the one who 306 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: was expected to know where he was. And of course 307 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: it was possible that the cook and the maid downstairs 308 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: had been somehow involved, but there were suggestions that the 309 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: nurse maid in particular. There was one story that went 310 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: around that perhaps she'd had a lover, a man from 311 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: the village, and the little boy had woken Because she 312 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: shared a room with younger children, so somehow the boy 313 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: had been spirited out of the room while she was there. 314 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: There was one theory the boy had woken up and 315 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 2: seen her in bed with a man, and that in 316 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: order to silence him, they had between them killed him. 317 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: Another theory was that it was the father who'd been 318 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: in bed with the nursemaid, and again that the boy 319 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: had woken up and that they had killed him so 320 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: that he wouldn't report it to his mother. So there 321 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: were some very wild theories going around the name of 322 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: this family. In all the speculation and rumor and fantasy 323 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: about what might be happening, was being sort of dragged 324 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: through the mud, and all the stuff came out about 325 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: the fact that the boy's mother had previously been a governess, 326 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 2: that she'd been having an affair with a father before 327 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: they moved to the village, and it was all very 328 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: disgracing and shaming for the family. And the news about 329 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: the previous wife having been insane, people started speculating about 330 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 2: whether one of her children, Mary Anne Elizabeth Constance William, 331 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,959 Speaker 2: might have inherited her insanity and killed the boy for 332 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: that reason, the idea that this family who'd been struck 333 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: by tragedy were also being speculated about when libel laws 334 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 2: were very weak, very freely in the pages of the 335 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: press and apparently in the minds of the detective officers. 336 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: So which of these theories did Jack Witcher and his 337 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: part subscribed to the most strongly? What did they believe 338 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: Jack Witcher. 339 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 2: He came to believe that Constance Kent, the sixteen year 340 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: old half sister of Saville, the boy who had died, 341 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: had killed him, and he backed up this belief with 342 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 2: a story about how she had a missing a night 343 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: dress missing. The number of night dresses in her drawers 344 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: was incorrect, it was one short. She insisted that the 345 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: correct number of night dresses had gone to the laundry 346 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: that week, but that one had not been returned, and 347 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: the lawn dress seemed to confirm this. But he was 348 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 2: convinced that somehow, by some sleight of hand, Constance had 349 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: hidden and destroyed a bloodied night dress, and that she 350 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 2: was the perpetrator. 351 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: What was the motive, What did he think was the 352 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: reason behind it? 353 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: He thought that she wanted to hurt her stepmother because 354 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: she had loved her so much as a child, loved 355 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: her more than her own mother, and had felt deeply 356 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 2: betrayed when the stepmother married her father and more or 357 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: less abandoned her. She became much more interested in her 358 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 2: actual children, her new babies, than the children of Samuel 359 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: Kent's previous wife. Which's theory was that Constance was burning 360 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: with rage against her stepmother, and she knew what would 361 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: hurt her more than anything and hurt her father too, 362 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: was to take their favorite child and kill it. And 363 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: I suppose the boy, which had thought the boy represented 364 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 2: everything that she resented as well, because he was the 365 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: apple of his parents' eye, and the previous family had 366 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: become secondary. They were more or less ignored. They weren't 367 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: given new clothes, they had to sort of make do 368 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: with what they had, and she felt neglected and enraged 369 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: on the behalf of her brother to her brother, William, 370 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: her younger brother fourteen years old, who she was extremely 371 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: fond of. She and William previously a few years earlier, 372 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: had once run away together. They tried to run away 373 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: to see Constance had chopped off all her hair and 374 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: she'd thrown it in the privy, the same privy that 375 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: Saville was found. And Wicher thought this was very significant 376 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: and that it also indicated her capacity for rebellion and 377 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: the depths of her anger with her father and her stepmother. 378 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: Tell me about access again. You said, there's a large 379 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: wall around the house, right, but there was a window open. 380 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: But Wicher felt like the window was a decoy and 381 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: did he feel strong like there is no way anybody 382 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: from the outside world could have gotten into this house 383 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: without a key or something. 384 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: Samuel Kent went round the building every night making sure 385 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: that all the windows and doors were and he confirmed 386 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: that he had done that on the night before his 387 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: son was murdered. And it was impossible to open this 388 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: window from the outside. It was impossible to open it 389 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: from the outside. 390 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: And did you say the privy was within the wall, 391 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: within the property or is it a separate place. 392 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: It's separate. It was an outhouse. It was next to 393 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 2: something called the knife house and the boothouse. There were 394 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: little sheds just beyond the kitchen outside the building itself. 395 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 2: The buildings very sort of elegant and had various outhouses 396 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: for different purposes. So this was a privy not used 397 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: by the family, that used by the laborers, the people 398 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: who worked in the grounds. 399 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: Could constance with what you know have done this? Did 400 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: she have the access? Could she have slipped away? Could 401 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: all of this reasonably happened based on what you know 402 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: of how tightly locked up this place was and where 403 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: everyone was located at the time. 404 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: It seems possible one thing another thing which concluded which 405 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: seems right to me is that whoever took Savile from 406 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 2: his cot in a room where his nursemaid was sleeping, 407 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: he must have known whoever took him, because they were 408 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: confident that he would make no noise unless it was 409 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: the nursemaid herself or, as people speculated, a lover. It 410 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: had to be somebody who Savel would willingly be taken 411 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: by in order for them, and or who could explain 412 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: their presence if he did wake up and cause a fuss. 413 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: There was suggestions that he'd been anesthetized. There was no 414 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: evidence of this, but this was one of the speculations 415 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: as a way of getting him out of the house silently, 416 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: But there was no evidence of that, and it does 417 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: seem likely that somebody who he knew would have been 418 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: able to lift him out of his cot and take 419 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: him away without his complaining, and if they had been caught, 420 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: could have explained it as oh, they were just playing 421 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 2: or just visiting or something like that, if they'd been 422 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: caught in the act of taking him from his room. 423 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: On that score, it seemed possible. Also, she was a 424 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 2: strong young woman. She was quite unlike her younger brother William, 425 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: who was quite slight. She was reputed to like doing 426 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: boxing matches with other girls at school. She was quite 427 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 2: she was quite a tough girl, and which had deemed 428 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: her physically capable of taking the boy, though he was 429 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: puzzled by how she'd managed to both carry him and 430 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: open the window and hustle him out and take him 431 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 2: to the privy and carry the knife. It did all 432 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: seem quite difficult, but not impossible. And yes, physically it 433 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 2: did seem that whoever took him must have been sleeping 434 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: in the house that night, must have been staying in 435 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: the house that night. He seemed absolutely right on that. 436 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: But Elizabeth, the nurse maid was sleeping in Saville's room. 437 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: Is that right? 438 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? Wow, So again these speculations that it could only 439 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: have been her for a while, they had a lot 440 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: of traction. She came under a lot of suspicion, She 441 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: was arrested, she was taken to the magistrates court. There 442 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: was for some time she was the chief suspect. And 443 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: it was Witcher really who intervened and said, no, I 444 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: don't think so. I think it's Constance. 445 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: I just don't see how a shift in a kind 446 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: of a tough girl would have convinced him over an 447 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: adult who's sleeping in the same room next to this 448 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: boy who's not a member of the family. 449 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: Yea. Although he sort of proceeded with kind of quite 450 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: forensic care, and the theory came up with about the 451 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: night dress and how it had been concealed was very ingenious. Really, 452 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: what he was about was psychology. He talked to these 453 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: women and he believed Elizabeth Goff. There was no evidence 454 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: that she'd had a man in her room, and he 455 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 2: didn't think she had. He believed her, And when he 456 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: spoke to Constance, he detected something in her, something angry 457 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: and defiant, and he fixed on her in an almost 458 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: in an intuitive way. And it was his downfall really 459 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: that he could not find the night dress they trowled 460 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 2: the nearby river, or the knife, the murder weapon was 461 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: not found, and he couldn't find any evidence to prove 462 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: his suspicions. They were suspicions, they were his reading of 463 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 2: character and body language and mannerism and speech. He couldn't 464 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 2: back it up with evidence, and as a result, when 465 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: he put his case to the magistrates, he was put 466 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: under a lot of pressure to come up with a 467 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: solution quickly. He said he needed more time, and they 468 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 2: wouldn't give him it because of the national scandal of 469 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 2: this case and the outrage of it not being sold. 470 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 2: He accused Constance, admitted he didn't have any physical evidence, 471 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: and was severely censured by some of the magistrates and 472 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: the press and so on for the terrible aspersions he 473 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: was casting on this bereaved sixteen year old girl without 474 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: any evidence to back it up. 475 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming the Kent family, so Samuel and Mary 476 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: and these kids, are they all saying the same thing. 477 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: There's no way she did it, A stranger must have 478 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: done it. Or does anybody cast suspicion on Constance at 479 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: any point in the media, at least from the family's 480 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: point of view. 481 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: Samuel Kent, the boy's father, he said, of course she 482 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: couldn't have done it, but there was some ambivalence in 483 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: him which Richard detected, and in a local doctor who 484 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: knew the family well and who said things about Constance 485 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: that suggested that she was unstable. Samuel Kent seemed to 486 00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: be playing a sort of bit of a double game 487 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: of sometimes defending her, but sometimes saying things that suggested 488 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: he didn't trust her and that she had been resentful 489 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: of the young child. The others in the family all 490 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: fiercely defended her and said, of course it was impossible 491 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: that she could have done such a thing, but the 492 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: mother that Saville's mother, was very uneasy about her and 493 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: feared that she might have been capable of doing it. 494 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: So Constance is never charged, right, and Witcher has been 495 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: severely censured. Is there anything that happens in this case 496 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: while Witcher is still alive, while Constance is still living 497 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: in the house. 498 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 2: Well, Costance was briefly charged and her father went to 499 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: see her in prison where she was being held, but 500 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: she was then discharged after the magistrates basically throughout Witcher's case, 501 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: which of them went back to London pretty much in disgrace. 502 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 2: I mean. The backlash from this case and the sense 503 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: of the impropriety and insolence with which he'd behaved, the 504 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: tactless nurse and cruelty as it was perceived of his 505 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: investigation basically ended his career. He was never put on 506 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 2: another major murder investigation. He just did desk work and 507 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: behind the scenes stuff for the next five years and 508 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: eventually retired from the detective force with a condition he 509 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: called congestion of the brain. I think he had a breakdown, 510 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown. Constance continued to live at home for 511 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: a bit, but then her father sent her off to 512 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: various places, to finishing schools, to a convent in France. 513 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: There was a sense that the family were trying to 514 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: sort of get her out of the way. The cloud 515 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: of suspicions still hung over all of them. So Samuel 516 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: Kent was treated with contempt at the factories he visited 517 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: and so on. He had to move away from the 518 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 2: area because many people believed the story that he had 519 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: killed his son because he'd been having an affair with 520 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: the nursemaid. So this carried on for a few years. 521 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: But when Constance was twenty one, so five years after 522 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: the murder, she suddenly came forward. She went to London, 523 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: which had retired from the force, and she made a confession. 524 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: She said that she had killed her brother. She didn't 525 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: really give a good reason for it. She denied completely 526 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: that it had been jealousy, but she said she'd done it, 527 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: and she very calm about it. She was tried sentenced 528 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: to death, but then the sentence was commuted to life 529 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: imprisonment and she served the next twenty years in prison, 530 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: wow which it was vindicated, and he had a sort 531 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: of second wind in that he became a very pioneering 532 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: private investigator in London, and rather late in life he 533 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: married his landlady. But yes, he'd been broken by the case, 534 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: but her confession partly redeemed him. When I read the 535 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: files on the case in the Metropolitan Police archives, I 536 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: could see all his original notes, all his expenses files, 537 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: his notes on his interviews with Constance and everyone else, 538 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: his reports to his officers back in Scotland yard while 539 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: he was down in Wiltshire, and I realized that something 540 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: he'd not said at the time, but that he thought 541 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: that someone else had been involved in the murder too, 542 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: not only Constance. And when she confessed, he wondered if 543 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: her confession had actually that she had carried out the murder. 544 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: But the purpose of the confession was to shield the 545 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: other person who had been involved, and that she has 546 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: still not told the complete truth. 547 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: Why would she come forward after five years? I know 548 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: it was sort of always speculation, but nobody's reopened this case. 549 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm assuming at that point she had. 550 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: Come under the influence of an Anglican priest and she 551 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: had become slightly siritual in her beliefs more spiritual than 552 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: she had been, But she said that wasn't the reason. 553 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: The priest said he hadn't urged her to confess, but 554 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: there were some things about the timing of it. Without 555 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: divulging exactly, she may have been protecting, as I said 556 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: she had. This cloud had been hanging over her entire family, 557 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: and perhaps she wanted to lift that cloud and to 558 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: enable her family to have some freedom. Perhaps that was 559 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: the thing, rather than contrition for the murder itself. It 560 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: was more about the fates of living people that she 561 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: cared at that point, and she realized she could do 562 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: something about it. She could clear their names by coming 563 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: forward herself. 564 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: Did it clear the Kent family name? 565 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 2: Yes, it did. They made it easier for Samuel Kent 566 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: and his wife Mary and their children to live a 567 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: life free of suspicion, and Constance's older sisters were also 568 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 2: completely cleared of any suspicion that had attached to them, 569 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: and her brother William was able to pursue his ambitions 570 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 2: to be a marine biologist and naturalist, and he moved 571 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 2: to Australia, where he became one of the first people 572 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 2: to chart and paint the Great barrier reef and did 573 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: some very beautiful work in terms of his observations and 574 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: sort of artistic renderings of the flora and fauna he 575 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: found out there. 576 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: Well, not to get too detailed, but I'm still stuck 577 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: on Witcher back in eighteen sixty on Witcher being focused 578 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: on how could she have carried out a sleeping savile 579 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: through a window? Did she give any insight on the 580 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: actual procedure, what she did, where she killed them, how 581 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: all of it worked without anyone in this house knowing? 582 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: Her story didn't quite add up. That was part of 583 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 2: the thing that, you know, when she eventually confessed, it 584 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 2: still didn't really make sense. It physically didn't work what 585 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: she was describing, which confirmed which is suspicion that there 586 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: might have been someone else involved, because of course, if 587 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: somebody else had been there, another person could have carried 588 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: the knife, opened the window, open doors, because she had 589 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 2: to go downstairs and outside and then get rid of 590 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: the evidence, And she didn't really account for quite a 591 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 2: lot of that. She didn't really explain quite a lot 592 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: of that. It was as if, you know, there were 593 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: gaps in her confession in terms of the plausibility of it. 594 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: What do you think, do you think there was another 595 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: person involved with this? And do you believe her to 596 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: begin with? 597 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: I believe she did do it, and I believe there 598 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: was another person involved in it. 599 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: Can you narrow down kid or adult kid? Okay, I 600 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: bet we could figure that one out well. 601 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 2: Constance Kent, she too ended up in Australia, like amazingly, 602 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: although she served twenty years in prison, which is essentially 603 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: a life center. She was only forty one when she 604 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 2: came out, and she went out to Australia under an alias, 605 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 2: and she became a nurse, and she worked with delinquent 606 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 2: children and on a leprosy colony. And she lived to 607 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: the age of one hundred and one. Oh my gosh, 608 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 2: she lived right into the nineteen forties, which is quite 609 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: sort of astonishing. It's such a Victorian story. But her 610 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 2: resilience and I'd like to think some sort of atonement 611 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 2: in the work she did out in Australia, the way 612 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: she dedicated herself to helping others, especially young others, which 613 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 2: could correlate both to her young self but also to 614 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 2: the child she had killed. But it does suggest she 615 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: took some sort of moral responsibility for what had happened. 616 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything that Witches or Scotland Yard could have 617 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: done in eighteen sixty more if Witcher had been taken 618 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: seriously in his accusations against Constance. Is there anything that 619 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: they could have done that could have tied her more 620 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: tightly to the crime or was this some sort of 621 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: missed opportunity because from what you're telling me, you know, 622 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: even though yes, she confessed, there's definitely not enough evidence 623 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: now there wouldn't be enough evidence, but there's a lot 624 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: more that could be done now. 625 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 2: I think he was hampered both by the amount of 626 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: time he was given, but also by how everyone was 627 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 2: flinching at the fact he was interviewing this family at all. 628 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 2: You know, he was not really allowed to or encourage 629 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: to intrude on their grief to interview them sufficiently. It 630 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: was like, no, you've talked to her, you've talked to 631 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: the father. That's enough now. So he wasn't given that 632 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 2: sort of support because of the class issues for social 633 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: issues around it. But I think in essence, Constance had 634 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 2: done a very good job of sticking by her story 635 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: of getting rid of the evidence he couldn't find anything, 636 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: and his story about the night dresses it turned out 637 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 2: was true about the way that she'd given it to 638 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: the lawn dress and then got someone to go and 639 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: get glass of water stolen the night dress back. It 640 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: seemed so far fetched, but it turned out in her 641 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: confession that that's exactly what she did. But it was 642 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: such a complex little story, like a contrack, that I 643 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: don't think people understood it at the time and just 644 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: thought he was talking nonsense. The way it was reported 645 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 2: in the papers made it sound ridiculous. He wasn't given 646 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 2: enough sort of credit, or his intelligence and credibility weren't 647 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: respected enough, he wasn't given enough time. But truly, maybe 648 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: no one could have nailed this case because it was 649 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 2: extremely difficult, and with his two weeks that had passed 650 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: between the commission of the murder and his arrival in Wiltshire, 651 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 2: there'd been plenty of time to concoct stories, dispose of evidence, 652 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: and so on. It was perhaps an impossible task that 653 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: could only be solved by a hypothesis. Turns out his 654 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,919 Speaker 2: hypothesis was right. 655 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: Tell me what you think the lesson learned is what 656 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: can we take from this story and move forward into 657 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: our time about crime? Who commits the crime, how we 658 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 1: investigate crimes. 659 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: Well, it sort of reminds me indetective fiction and crime 660 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 2: fiction and mysteries. We get very hung up on the 661 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 2: and intrigued by the sort of puzzle aspect of it, 662 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 2: the clues, the forensics, all this kind of thing. It's 663 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: very absorbing and enjoyable. But in life, I think the 664 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: detective who can just read character, the intuition and a 665 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 2: feel for what's likely and what's possible is actually often 666 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 2: the thing that gets things solved. 667 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 668 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 669 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 670 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amerosi. Our associate 671 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: producer is Alex chi. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 672 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 673 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 674 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 675 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more and if you know 676 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 677 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold More Wicked email us at info 678 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 679 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words