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Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's a big take. I'm Wescsova.

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Speaker 1: Today the US braces for a wave of asylum seekers.

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Speaker 1: Pandemic restrictions that made it much harder for immigrants seeking

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Speaker 1: to enter the US are being lifted today, and once

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Speaker 1: that happens, tens of thousands of people a day are

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Speaker 1: expected to cross the southern border from Mexico seeking asylum.

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Speaker 1: That will further strain an immigration system that's already overwhelmed.

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Speaker 2: The desire for people to come to the country had

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Speaker 2: been almost entirely where the southwest border is concerned people

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Speaker 2: from Mexico. That began to change. We began to see

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Speaker 2: people coming from Central America and coming in family group.

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Speaker 1: That's dooris Meisner. She was in charge of US immigration

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Speaker 1: during the Clinton administration and she studied this issues for decades.

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Speaker 1: We'll hear more from her in just a bit. First,

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in White House reporters Justin Sink

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Speaker 1: and a Kayla Gardner, who are covering this story. Justin

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Speaker 1: the current controversy at the border seems to be focused

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Speaker 1: on this old and one time obscure provision in the

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Speaker 1: law called Title forty two, which was put into effect

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic as a way of restricting immigration. How

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Speaker 1: does that work?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's useful to take a step back

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Speaker 3: to before the pandemic and how people were coming to

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Speaker 3: the US. There was a group of folks who had

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Speaker 3: all their paperwork in order and were coming on flights

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Speaker 3: or maybe border crossings, but had gotten their visas, gotten

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Speaker 3: all their paperwork done, We're going through the system as normal.

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Speaker 3: And then there's a wider group of folks who were

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Speaker 3: coming over without documentation. So there were folks who were

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Speaker 3: sneaking across the border areas where there wasn't surveillance, and

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Speaker 3: we don't know a ton about them because by definition,

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Speaker 3: they were seeking to sort of avoid detection. And then

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Speaker 3: there's a third group who came across the border and

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Speaker 3: ask for asylum. And so what those folks say is

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Speaker 3: that they've got a credible fear of persecution back in

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Speaker 3: their home countries. So for lots of folks, they're escaping gangs, violence,

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Speaker 3: persecution because of things like sexual orientation or gender, for

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Speaker 3: any of those reasons, an immigration judge might look at

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Speaker 3: their case and say, hey, the United States agrees and

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Speaker 3: thinks that you are deserving of asylum status refugee status

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Speaker 3: in the United States. But what other folks know is

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Speaker 3: that if you come across the border and claim asylum status,

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Speaker 3: you have to go before a judge, and that sets

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Speaker 3: off a longer process under which you're given a court date,

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Speaker 3: but then released in the country until you have to

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Speaker 3: get to that court date. So some folks think that

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Speaker 3: they'll get refugee status at the end of it and

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Speaker 3: legitimately are going through the process, but might not. Other

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Speaker 3: folks really want to get through the first part of

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Speaker 3: that process, which is to get a court date and

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Speaker 3: then be released and then can kind of go wherever

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Speaker 3: they want in the country and seek economic opportunities. And

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Speaker 3: so for folks who are coming to the US in

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Speaker 3: search of those economic opportunities, this is a way that

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Speaker 3: they can circumvent the worry about being caught right at

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Speaker 3: the border as they cross.

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Speaker 1: So some people who are coming to the US just

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Speaker 1: to work have learned that the easiest way to do

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Speaker 1: that is to ask for asylum and then disappear into

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Speaker 1: the country and.

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Speaker 3: Go to work exactly. And so I think you see

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Speaker 3: critics on both sides of this say it's a process

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Speaker 3: that isn't working very well. There aren't enough judges to

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Speaker 3: adequately look at folks who have legitimate and reasonable fear

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Speaker 3: of persecution, have reasons that they need protection from their

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Speaker 3: home country, And there's also not enough judges to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is a case where somebody is just trying to

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Speaker 3: bypass the line and get another country quickly. What happened

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Speaker 3: during the coronavirus pandemic is a wide array of sort

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Speaker 3: of emergency powers came into effect. So what the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration did was dig up this old law from nearly

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Speaker 3: one hundred years ago and use it degrees.

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Speaker 4: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has decided to

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Speaker 4: exercise its authority under the Title forty two of the

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Speaker 4: US Code to give customers of border protection the tools

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Speaker 4: it needs to prevent the transmission of the virus coming through.

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Speaker 3: And whether it was because they were seeking to legitimately

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Speaker 3: stop the spread of the coronavirus pandemic, whether it was

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Speaker 3: because they were trying to stop undocumented migration across the

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Speaker 3: southern border, or some combination of both, what ended up

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Speaker 3: happening functionally was that lots of folks who otherwise would

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Speaker 3: have been able to go through this asylum process ended

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Speaker 3: up being returned back to their home countries or returned

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Speaker 3: back across the Mexican border, and.

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Speaker 1: A kala that caused a huge backlog of people on

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Speaker 1: the border.

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Speaker 5: So they have now turned away some two million people

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Speaker 5: who have come to the border seeking asylum. Those people

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Speaker 5: no longer really have to go through the same process

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Speaker 5: that they have.

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Speaker 1: And for years.

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Speaker 5: It's sort of frustrating for these people who've made this

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Speaker 5: long journey that they can no longer have a chance

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Speaker 5: because of this law.

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Speaker 1: And what's happening to them are the countries where they

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Speaker 1: came from just taking them back.

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Speaker 3: In Well, it really depends some countries won't take these

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Speaker 3: folks back. The US has tried to get other countries

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Speaker 3: to take them back. They've had some success with Mexico,

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Speaker 3: with Canada, with Spain, with other allies and partners in

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Speaker 3: the region where folks can go back. Some countries are

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Speaker 3: taking them back. The administration is doing flights on a

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Speaker 3: daily basis from the southern border back and some are

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Speaker 3: just kind of camped out on the US Mexican border,

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Speaker 3: and these massive towns that have emerged seeking another chance

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Speaker 3: to try to get back into the United States, and this.

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Speaker 1: Is especially a problem from countries where the US doesn't

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Speaker 1: really have diplomatic relations like Cuba.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so often those countries that the US has the

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Speaker 3: worst relationship are the ones where the economic situation is

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Speaker 3: the most dire, and so that's why folks are making

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Speaker 3: this journey away from their families and friends. The administration

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Speaker 3: has been trying to address this in many different ways.

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Speaker 3: Vice President Harris has looked to American companies to invest

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Speaker 3: in some of these countries.

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Speaker 6: Question as I've asked Microsoft to partner with us on

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Speaker 6: what we can do to get people access to banking

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Speaker 6: systems through technology and basically help them with their digital connectiveness.

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Speaker 6: Let's see the people, let's see their needs, and let's

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Speaker 6: focus on it.

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Speaker 3: And they've also worked with other countries in Central and

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Speaker 3: South America and asked them to take more refugees, to

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Speaker 3: work with the United States to help people who are

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Speaker 3: genuinely trying to get out of terrible situations and just

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Speaker 3: looking for somewhere else that they can go.

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Speaker 1: It's notable that even though Biden's stands on immigration is

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Speaker 1: very different from Trump's, he didn't repeal Title forty two

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Speaker 1: when he took office.

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Speaker 5: Exactly. They have continued it over the past something like

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Speaker 5: two years.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 5: This program was supposed to end in the spring of

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty two, because back in April, the CDC said,

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Speaker 5: the situation of the pandemic has just improved so much,

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Speaker 5: vaccination reads are much higher. This is no longer necessary.

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Speaker 1: So they could no longer justify it for it tended purpose,

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Speaker 1: which was to protect Americans from the spread of disease.

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Speaker 5: Exactly, they could no longer justify as a public health emergency.

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Speaker 5: And so basically this was supposed to end last year.

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Speaker 5: But this group of Republican states, this coalition, came together

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Speaker 5: and said, if you end this program, chaos is going

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Speaker 5: to ensue at the border. So this group of Republican

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Speaker 5: governors follow a lawsuit to prevent Title forty two from ending,

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Speaker 5: and this escalated all the way up to the Supreme

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Speaker 5: Court at the request of the Biden administration, and they

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Speaker 5: decided to tie the end of Title forty two to

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Speaker 5: the end of the COVID nineteen pandemic, which is now

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Speaker 5: May eleven.

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Speaker 3: And that's the sort of dual purpose when we're looking

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Speaker 3: at the Trump administration. It's, on the one hand, there's

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Speaker 3: that real public health emergency. On the other it's a

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Speaker 3: way to sort of back into an immigration policy that

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Speaker 3: Republicans prefer, which is that you don't have this pathway

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Speaker 3: open where people can both claim refugee status and also

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Speaker 3: exploit the loophole of the gap between when you're captured

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Speaker 3: on the southern border and when you have to show

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Speaker 3: up to a court date to go anywhere you want

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Speaker 3: in the US potentially fall off the map and disappear.

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Speaker 1: So the justices ruled that Title forty two was to

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Speaker 1: remain in effect until there was an official declaration essentially

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Speaker 1: of the end of the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: And Republicans in Congress have been eager to get that,

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Speaker 3: especially because they've wanted to see covid era vaccination requirements,

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Speaker 3: covid era travel restrictions, all these sort of things that

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Speaker 3: were implemented during the pandemic rolled back. And so even

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Speaker 3: though the Biden administration had planned to let public health

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Speaker 3: officials make that decision, when lawmakers on Capitol Hill pushed

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Speaker 3: for legislation that would have it rolled back in May,

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Speaker 3: ultimately the White House said that's okay, we'll go forward

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Speaker 3: with that date.

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Speaker 7: We're here today because of the impending end of Title

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Speaker 7: forty two policy. President Biden is laying down a welcome

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Speaker 7: matt to people across the entire world, saying that the

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Speaker 7: United States border is why to but President of Biden's

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Speaker 7: open border policies is going to cause a catastrophic disaster

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Speaker 7: in the United States.

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Speaker 1: That's Greg Abbott, the Republican governor of Texas, and justin

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Speaker 1: Republican governors like him who were arguing that once Title

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Speaker 1: forty two is lifted, there's gonna be a crush of

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Speaker 1: people once again pouring over the southern border. They're not wrong.

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Speaker 1: The Biden administration is pretty worried about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're estimating that there could be as many as

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Speaker 3: ten thousand people coming across a day, which is a

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Speaker 3: huge logistical challenge for everybody at the border. So in

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Speaker 3: preparation for Title forty two being lifted, the administration has

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Speaker 3: done a series of things that they hope will sort

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Speaker 3: of stem that flow and also hope will support folks

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Speaker 3: who are working the border at the border patrol agents

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Speaker 3: right now. But there's a real concern that these steps

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Speaker 3: might not do enough, and we could see, as we

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Speaker 3: did early in the Trump administration, lay in the Obama

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Speaker 3: administration and often happens in summers, a real big push,

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Speaker 3: especially of all these folks who have been pent up

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Speaker 3: waiting for Title forty two to end.

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Speaker 5: So one thing that they just recently announced is that

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Speaker 5: they are going to be sending one thy five hundred

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Speaker 5: troops to the boarder to basically assist in these first

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Speaker 5: few months now that Title forty two is ending. And

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Speaker 5: they specifically said they will not be doing law enforcement activities,

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Speaker 5: they will not be even interacting with migrants, but they're

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Speaker 5: going to be helping with logistical things like data entry

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Speaker 5: and warehouse support. So they are in some ways trying

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Speaker 5: to prepare for this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so in addition to those troops, the administration

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Speaker 3: unveiled a whole news set of rules and policies that

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Speaker 3: will mean that these interactions go differently than they did

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Speaker 3: before the pandemic. Back in January, the President announced that

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Speaker 3: he was going to expand parrole so that more people

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Speaker 3: could come through the refugee system. So thirty thousand people

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Speaker 3: a month from four countries Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela

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Speaker 3: will be eligible for that sort of asylum status. But

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Speaker 3: there are new tougher restrictions for how you can qualify

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Speaker 3: for it. So you have to have checked with every

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Speaker 3: country that you transited through on your way to the

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Speaker 3: US to see if you could be offered refugee status there,

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Speaker 3: and have the paperwork to show that you were denied

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Speaker 3: in those countries.

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Speaker 1: Instead of just showing up and getting a court date exactly.

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Speaker 3: And on top of that, you have to use a

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Speaker 3: new app for a smartphone that the government has developed

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Speaker 3: and make an appointment with an asylum officer on the

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Speaker 3: other side of the border. So if you show up

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Speaker 3: and you don't have one of these coveted appointments, you're

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Speaker 3: sent straight back. The idea is that there are more

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Speaker 3: slots available, there are more sort of legal pathways that exist,

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Speaker 3: but that for folks who don't kind of check all

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Speaker 3: the boxes, and those are hard boxes to check, it's

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Speaker 3: tough to get through if you don't have all your

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Speaker 3: paperwork in order, you don't have a phone. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: not only are you sent back, you're not eligible to

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Speaker 3: come back to the United States under any sort of

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Speaker 3: legal status for the next five years.

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Speaker 1: Is there a concern that this is just going to

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Speaker 1: increase pressure people trying to sneak over the border, get

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Speaker 1: through the fence, go across the Rio grind River, all

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Speaker 1: the ways that people have over many years tried to

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Speaker 1: sneak into the US instead of at least trying to

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Speaker 1: go through the process the right way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a huge concern of immigration activists who say

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Speaker 3: the system that we had before was ad hoc and

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Speaker 3: broken in many ways, but it did route people towards

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Speaker 3: fairly safe border crossings. And if you remove the incentive

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Speaker 3: for all but the lucky few who get one of

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Speaker 3: these appointments to go through normal, designated pathways to get

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Speaker 3: onto US soil, you really open the door to exploitative

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Speaker 3: and dangerous routes into the US.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, what other countries are doing to

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Speaker 1: control the wave of immigrants on their way to the

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Speaker 1: US Akayla Winter, Mexico and other countries in Central America

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Speaker 1: doing to prepare for this wave of immigrants, people who

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Speaker 1: are going to pass through their countries on their way

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Speaker 1: to the US, or who are going to be on

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Speaker 1: the receiving end of people the US turns away.

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Speaker 5: I think the US's biggest partner in this right now

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Speaker 5: is Mexico, and they have basically agreed to accept thirty

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Speaker 5: thousand migrants a month who are turned away from the US,

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Speaker 5: and they've also said they're partnering with the administration in

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Speaker 5: terms of preventing drug trafficking.

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Speaker 3: We are seeing Colombia Guatemala invite the US in to

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Speaker 3: create processing centers in their native countries so that folks

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Speaker 3: don't make the dangerous journey without having had the chance

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Speaker 3: to do one of these interviews, and it doesn't create

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Speaker 3: this sort of cycle of displacement, cycle of chaos. Ideally,

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Speaker 3: folks would be able to, if they're genuinely seeking refugee status,

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Speaker 3: either come from or come to Colombia Guatemala, go through

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Speaker 3: these interviews, then buy a plane ticket and fly to

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Speaker 3: the US directly because they've got all their paperwork in order.

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Speaker 3: And so you see these other countries, see countries like

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Speaker 3: Canada and Spain saying if the US is able to

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Speaker 3: process these folks, we might be able to take more refugees.

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Speaker 3: You see these partnerships developing where they're trying to find

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Speaker 3: ways to quell the chaos. But the real question is

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Speaker 3: are these systems big enough and are the resources there

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Speaker 3: so that people are actually disincentivized from just crossing the border. Illegally,

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Speaker 3: And I think the real worry among activists, among folks

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Speaker 3: in the administration, and certainly among critics is that this

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Speaker 3: system just isn't built well enough right now to stop

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Speaker 3: what could be a really massive search.

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Speaker 1: If people do have to show that every country they

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Speaker 1: went through they sought asylum and were denied, will the

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Speaker 1: US be able to make better judgments about who the

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Speaker 1: people are who are coming, or is it they'll just

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Speaker 1: be a rubber stamped through all these other countries who

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Speaker 1: kind of want to pass them along.

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Speaker 3: There's certainly a lot of rubber stamping happening in Mexico

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Speaker 3: in particular. Mexico will essentially give you a document as

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Speaker 3: soon as you apply for asylum saying that it's rejected.

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Speaker 3: This is in certain Mexican states, and then as you

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Speaker 3: work through the system, you might be able to come

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Speaker 3: back and actually in fact get accepted. The US has

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Speaker 3: created this incentive structure for other countries to reject refugee

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Speaker 3: applications so that people can move along pathways. And so

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Speaker 3: you know, this is an issue that actually hits not

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Speaker 3: just the US but every country along the line and

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Speaker 3: has created political and economic issues. So it's why you

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Speaker 3: hear a lot of talk about trying to come up

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Speaker 3: with unified solutions across the hemisphere, because I think everybody

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Speaker 3: sees migration as a real challenge.

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Speaker 1: Justin We're also starting to see a little bit of

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Speaker 1: motion in the Senate over this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a bipartisan bill from Senators Cinema and

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Speaker 3: Senator Tillis that would essentially extend Title forty two type

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Speaker 3: restrictions for the next couple of years, with the hope

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Speaker 3: that they could use that space to sort of get

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Speaker 3: the big white whale of Congress, which is a comprehensive

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Speaker 3: immigration reform bill. This short term bill isn't very likely,

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Speaker 3: it needs sixty votes in the Senate, doesn't seem to

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Speaker 3: have it, and it lacks something that would give Democrats

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Speaker 3: a thing they could point to for immigration activists, something

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Speaker 3: like a pathway to citizenship for Dreamers, where they could say, hey, guys,

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Speaker 3: we're not just keeping people out, including legitimate refugees. We're

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Speaker 3: trying to do something that could actually help people who

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Speaker 3: are really in need. It's an interesting idea, but it

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem to have a pult home moment right now.

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Speaker 5: There's also a proposal in the House from Republicans that

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Speaker 5: proposes resuming wall construction, which we know was this deeply

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Speaker 5: unpopular policy under Trump that has basically stopped under the

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Speaker 5: Biden administration. And they also want to up the border

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Speaker 5: patrol agents to twenty two thousand. It's right now at

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Speaker 5: nineteen thousand, and that twenty two thousand number is sort

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Speaker 5: of seen as this optimal size for the agency. There

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Speaker 5: are things that Democrats and Republicans agree on with immigration,

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Speaker 5: but there's sort of these two different extremes that they have.

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Speaker 5: They know that this is a problem that needs to

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Speaker 5: be dealt with, but they just see it in two

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Speaker 5: drastically different ways on how to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: And a Kayla that points to, of course, the politics

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Speaker 1: involved in immigration. And we're heading into another presidential campaign,

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Speaker 1: and the last one, immigration was front and center. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump made it a centerpiece of his campaign. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that the crisis at the border will once again

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Speaker 1: be a central issue in the campaign.

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Speaker 5: I think it definitely will. But I think we're definitely

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Speaker 5: going to see it from Republicans. I don't think that

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Speaker 5: President Biden sees this as a winning issue for him,

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Speaker 5: so I don't think it's something that he's going to

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Speaker 5: seek to highlight Governor Rond De Santis, who has been

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Speaker 5: one of these Republicans who've been sending migrants to other cities.

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Speaker 5: It's definitely going to be something that he is going

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Speaker 5: to be hitting Biden on if and when he announces,

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Speaker 5: and of course Trump as well. He was sort of

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Speaker 5: seen as someone who was tough on immigration when he

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Speaker 5: was in office.

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Speaker 1: Justin as you continue to report on this, what are

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Speaker 1: you looking for?

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing that we're looking at is

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Speaker 3: the real humanitarian toll that this has the potential to have,

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Speaker 3: because if you have perhaps over a million people bottled

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Speaker 3: up waiting to get across the border, and in fact

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Speaker 3: do sarge across the border, just in terms of food, water, housing, healthcare,

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Speaker 3: basic logistics, keeping families together so that they're not separated,

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Speaker 3: making sure that people are getting to save places, whether

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Speaker 3: it's in the US or back in their home countries

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Speaker 3: or in third party countries. It is a massive logistical undertaking.

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Speaker 3: And these aren't boxes that you're trying to get from

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Speaker 3: one place to another. These are human beings that have

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Speaker 3: health issues, personal issues, all sorts of problems. Because if

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Speaker 3: they didn't have all sorts of problems, they wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: taken this sort of harrowing journey to the United States

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Speaker 3: in the first place. There's just this real danger of

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Speaker 3: a humanitarian crisis developing, and I think that's going to

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Speaker 3: be something that we're watching very carefully.

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Speaker 1: Justin Akayla, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us when we.

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Speaker 1: Come back, an immigration expert on what a system that

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Speaker 1: actually works might look like. Now, let's hear from someone

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Speaker 1: who's seen the challenges of immigration policy from inside the

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Speaker 1: government and has worked on the issue for years. Doris

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Speaker 1: Meisner was Commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service when

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton was president, That's what the department was called then.

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Speaker 1: She's now senior Fellow and director of the US Immigration

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Speaker 1: Policy Program at the Migration Policy Institute. That's a nonpartisan

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Speaker 1: think tank here in Washington. Ms Meisner, how did we

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Speaker 1: get here? Can you give us a broader perspective about

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Speaker 1: what's always been the same at the border and what's

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Speaker 1: different right now?

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Speaker 2: Well, the same over the years with this problem is

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Speaker 2: that the United States has always been a nation of

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Speaker 2: immigrants and is a place where people want to live

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Speaker 2: and create a future for themselves and for their families.

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Speaker 2: We've always had illegal immigration just as we've had legal immigration,

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Speaker 2: and we have a very generous legal immigration system, but

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Speaker 2: it is focused almost entirely on family members coming for

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Speaker 2: people who are already in the country. But we do

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Speaker 2: not have a large share of our immigration that is

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Speaker 2: employment based, that is based on people coming to work

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Speaker 2: in the United States who do not already have family ties.

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Speaker 2: The other part of our immigration system is what's known

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Speaker 2: as the humanitarian dimension, and that is offering protection through

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Speaker 2: refugee programs and now through political asylum, which is what's

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Speaker 2: so much an issue at the Southwest border. The desire

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Speaker 2: for people to come to the country had until ten

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Speaker 2: years ago or so, been almost entirely where the Southwest

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Speaker 2: border is concerned people from Mexico. They were typically young

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Speaker 2: males coming on their own, attempting to avoid the border

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Speaker 2: patrol and we're in the United States. That began to

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Speaker 2: change in the two thousands, and especially in the twenty teens.

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Speaker 2: We began to see more and more not only Mexicans,

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Speaker 2: but people coming from Central America and coming in family

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Speaker 2: groups and young people unaccompanied. And that was because of

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Speaker 2: changing conditions in Central American countries, and that pattern has continued.

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Speaker 2: It's also people from further south in the Hemisphere and

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Speaker 2: often from other parts of the world. And those people

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Speaker 2: are coming for a mixture of reasons, both economic and

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Speaker 2: arguably political and repression, and they are not trying to

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Speaker 2: avoid the border patrol. They are trying to turn themselves

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Speaker 2: over to the border patrol in order to apply for

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Speaker 2: protection and safety in the United States. But it has

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Speaker 2: led to our asylum process being deeply, deeply overburdened and

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Speaker 2: unable to decide those cases is in a timely fashion.

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Speaker 1: And so is this the case of the government simply

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Speaker 1: not keeping up with changing conditions or is it that

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Speaker 1: the politics of America changed along with it.

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Speaker 2: It's probably both. The systems that we have at the

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Speaker 2: southwest border have been inadequate for these numbers. What we've

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Speaker 2: done in funding terms as a post nine to eleven

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Speaker 2: phenomenon really is funded heavily our border patrol, our enforcement

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Speaker 2: and technology along the southwest border, but we have not

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Speaker 2: funded proportionately what we think of as the downstream agencies

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Speaker 2: that must support that border enforcement mission for it to work.

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Speaker 2: And to be specific about that, we do not have

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Speaker 2: asylum officers at the numbers that we need in order

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Speaker 2: to screen people that are applying for asylum and decide

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Speaker 2: the cases. We do not have facilities to be able

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Speaker 2: to make it possible to hold people during the period

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Speaker 2: that they're interviewed for removal if they're not eligible for asylum.

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Speaker 2: We do not have the judges in our court system,

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Speaker 2: which is part of the Justice Department. Nor do we

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Speaker 2: have the resources at the Department of Health and Human

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Speaker 2: Services to place people with sponsors in the United States

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Speaker 2: if they have an ability and are legally eligible to

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Speaker 2: stay here. So this is a cross government system and

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Speaker 2: it's unevenly resourced. So the pieces of the system that

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Speaker 2: need to work together don't work together effectively.

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Speaker 1: Why hasn't the immigration funding change to meet the changing needs.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's be clear, it's the Congress's job to fund

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Speaker 2: the federal government, and this administration has been asking for

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Speaker 2: sufficient funding for more than a year, and there have

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Speaker 2: been at least three or four opportunities for Congress to

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Speaker 2: rise to meet those needs, and they have refused to

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Speaker 2: do so for decades. The broad consensus is that there

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Speaker 2: were policy disagreements. Should you have guest worker programs, what

443
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: kinds of humanitarian assistance should be given through immigration, but

444
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: there was a general bipartisan agreement that immigration is a

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00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: net plus for the country. It's a net plus for

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00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: our economy, it's a net plus for our competitive edge

447
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: around the world. It reflects our values as a nation.

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00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: That changed with the Trump administration. The Trump administration described

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00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: immigration and views immigration as a threat to the country.

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Speaker 1: We need a wall, we need border security.

451
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,239
Speaker 4: We got to get rid of catch and release. You

452
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 4: catch a criminal, you take his name, you release him,

453
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: and he never shows up again. He goes into our society.

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Speaker 2: And that basic, broadly different philosophical outlook on immigration and

455
00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 2: what it represents has persisted and deepened. So the politics

456
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: that underlie all of this are certainly an important factor.

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Speaker 1: One thing the United States has done in recent years

458
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: is to put more pressure on Mexico, on Guatemala and

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Speaker 1: other nations where immigrants are coming from, in order to

460
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: absorb the number of people who are coming before they

461
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: cross the border. Do you see that continuing. Is that

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00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: a viable part of a solution.

463
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I see it continuing, And it is a viable

464
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: part of a solution. Because this has become a hemispheric issue.

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00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: Until very recently, the western hemisphere has not been a

466
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: refugee producing region as has been South Asia or the

467
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: Middle East, but in recent years it has become a

468
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 2: refugee producing region. So there is an assumption of shared

469
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: responsibility around the world. Mexico is the most important to

470
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: the United States, of course, because they're on our border,

471
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: and Mexico's situation geographically has changed dramatic in the last

472
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: ten years or so. It used to be primarily a

473
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: migrant sending country. Then it became increasingly both a migrant

474
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: sending and a migrant transit country. Now it's a migrant sending,

475
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: a migrant transit and a migrant destination country.

476
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: What do you see happening? How do you think that

477
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: this problem can be eased?

478
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: Well, in an ideal world, we would have the executive

479
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: branch and the legislative branch working together to change our

480
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: laws and the funding of those laws. But fundamentally, the

481
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: laws themselves to align with realities on the ground, and

482
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: those realities on the ground do have to do with

483
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: the fact that many of the people who are trying

484
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: to come are not suitable asylum candidates. But asylum is

485
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: the only possible avenue to get to the United States.

486
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: If you don't already have family here, and many of

487
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: the people who do have family here have family here

488
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: who are in an illegal status. And that too goes

489
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: back to the Congress, because we have a country of

490
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: a foreign born population in the forty millions, and about

491
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: a fourth of it, or about eleven million, do not

492
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: have legal status. Now, yes, they broke the law to come,

493
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: but they've been here more than sixty percent of them

494
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: have been here more than ten years. We need a

495
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: legalization program along with more opportunities for people to come

496
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: to the country for employment reasons. Now, that doesn't mean

497
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: that we can take everybody that wants to come, but

498
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: we could have a rational system that recognizes what today's

499
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 2: needs are and that is more flexible and that makes

500
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: it possible for people to come for work purposes. We

501
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: don't have that. And so what the administration is working

502
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: with and what the Administration is now laying out as

503
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: it's vision for the post five to eleven period is

504
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: a whole series of measures which, if they are able

505
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: to be implemented effectively, do represent the pieces of a

506
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: longer term, durable response. That doesn't mean that there won't

507
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: be illegal immigration, but it does mean that they may

508
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: have the chance of succeeding in a much more orderly

509
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 2: system that incentivizes and provides ways for people to apply

510
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: for asylum, but at the same time achieves a degree

511
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: of control along the border so that there are not

512
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: the chaotic conditions and unexpected, unpredictable surges and flows that

513
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: we're seeing today. The next sixty to ninety days is

514
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: critical in being able to determine whether the immediate response

515
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: is changing people's behaviors. But it will take longer than that.

516
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean, we should talk about this a year from

517
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: now in order to really see whether the broad measures

518
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: and shifts that the administration is attempting to incentivize in

519
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: fact take.

520
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: Hold, Doros Meisner, thanks so much for speaking with me today.

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00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: Thank you thanks for listening to us here at The

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00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.

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00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,760
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00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,360
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00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg

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00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is

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00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers

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00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: are Moberrow and Michael Falero. Kilde Garcia is our engineer.

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00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm wes Kasova.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another big take.

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Speaker 2: Do Do Poking Potter