1
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,440
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

8
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

9
00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

10
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

11
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 1: much for joining me for another TVG Library episode. We'll

12
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 1: get right into the conversation after a word from our sponsors.

13
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 1: Are you looking for something new and insightful to adds

14
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 1: to your bookshelf? Well, the Therapy for Black Girls Library

15
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 1: is open for business and you don't even need a

16
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,880
Speaker 1: library card. This week, we're reading Patriarchy Blues. Patriarchy Blues

17
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 1: is a thought provoking collection of essays, poems, and short

18
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,039
Speaker 1: reflections that explores issues of masculinity and patriarchy from both

19
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,039
Speaker 1: the personal and cultural standpoint. This week, I'm joined by

20
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 1: the New York Times Best selling author of the book

21
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 1: Frederick Joseph. Our conversation explores why it's important for black

22
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: men to proactively do the work to dismantle patriarchy and

23
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 1: the toxic tropes tied to it. If something resonates with

24
00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on

25
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag tb G in session, or

26
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: join us a run the Sister Circle. To talk more

27
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,920
Speaker 1: in depth about the episode, you can join us at

28
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,200
Speaker 1: community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation.

29
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Frederick, it's

30
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,640
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. I've been excited for this

31
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,799
Speaker 1: for a long time. I just love the work that's

32
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: being done, and I'm really excited for this conversation. Me too,

33
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 1: Me too. We have been kind of trying to plan

34
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,240
Speaker 1: a conversation around this topic for a long time, and

35
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 1: then when we heard about your new book, we were like, Oh,

36
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: we think Frederick's going to be the perfect person for

37
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 1: this conversation. So in the work that you do, you

38
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 1: describe yourself as a black man who wants to be

39
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 1: a resource for other black men to get it right

40
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to homophobia. In misogyny. What do you

41
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: mean when you say getting it right? What does that

42
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,960
Speaker 1: mean to you? I think getting it right is nuanced

43
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: right because there's a surface level of don't do these

44
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: things right, go, don't be misogynistic, don't be homophobia, don't

45
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,800
Speaker 1: be transphobic. But then the more in depth version of

46
00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,320
Speaker 1: that is, what does it mean? What are the implications

47
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 1: on not just the world around you, but on yourself? Right?

48
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,800
Speaker 1: Because homophobia actually, for example, is the root of a

49
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 1: lot of people's inability to be emotional oftentimes right, misogyny

50
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,280
Speaker 1: is the root of people's inability to have a positive

51
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: relationship with their partners. Right, So what does it look

52
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: like to get past that top layer and really get

53
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: into how it's actually corrosive for you as a person. Yeah,

54
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,799
Speaker 1: and I would love to know how did you get

55
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 1: to this place. I don't know much about your history,

56
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 1: but I'm guessing you grew up in America, right, and

57
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,640
Speaker 1: so we know that there are just things that we

58
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: grow up societally kind of believing. I'm curious to hear

59
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: about how you got to this place where you feel

60
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 1: like you are not perfect, as none of us are,

61
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: but getting it right more often than not and what

62
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 1: that has looked like for you. Yeah, I think that

63
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, that's a journey that has a lot of stops, right.

64
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 1: I always help people when it comes to a lot

65
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,040
Speaker 1: of things, identify myself as an inter sexual feminist. I'm

66
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 1: an inter sexual feminist in progress when it comes to

67
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: being a good partner to my fiance to say, I'm

68
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,400
Speaker 1: in progress, right, so and so forth. So I think

69
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 1: that progress started sometimes in maybe college, I found out

70
00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: that I have multiple's grosses. And when I found that out,

71
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: actually I was in grad school, excuse me. When I

72
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: found that out, I started thinking about what the world

73
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 1: around me not only looks like, what my place in

74
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 1: it is. And my grandmother used always tell me when

75
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:23,800
Speaker 1: I was growing up. She's like, while you can still

76
00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 1: use your hands using for good work, right, So I

77
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 1: had to identify myself what does good work look like? Right?

78
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 1: So my education in my background is in understanding a

79
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 1: lot of the nuances that I spoke about before, but

80
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 1: not just in terms of gender, in terms of patriarchy,

81
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,280
Speaker 1: but also in terms of white supremacy and systemic oppression

82
00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,920
Speaker 1: in various ways. So I just started identifying different pockets

83
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 1: where I can make a change and I do think

84
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 1: that fight against the mess was probably the first step

85
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 1: on the journey. Yeah, So, what do you think is

86
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,039
Speaker 1: one of the most common, or maybe a couple of

87
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,200
Speaker 1: the most common things that you think men misunderstand about

88
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:08,719
Speaker 1: being a man in today's society? Okay, I think that

89
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: one of the most common misconceptions is probably rooted in

90
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 1: this this false sense of toughness and what that actually means, right,

91
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 1: because I think that I've seen plenty of times, especially

92
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,599
Speaker 1: in the digital age, this idea that violence makes you tough,

93
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 1: this idea that not showing emotion makes you tough, this

94
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,039
Speaker 1: idea that misogyn war right in the ways in which

95
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,280
Speaker 1: that manifests makes you tough. And that is not only

96
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,600
Speaker 1: a misconception, but it's also for a lot of people.

97
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, the quote unquote hoteps and whatnot. People don't

98
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,359
Speaker 1: realize a lot of that is actually rooted in colonialism

99
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 1: and white supremacy, right, because if you get to the

100
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 1: root of who we are as a people, you know,

101
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,240
Speaker 1: before being brought over to these shores and to the

102
00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: shores of other countries, that's not who we were in

103
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,679
Speaker 1: our own world, right. We weren't people who were rooted

104
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 1: in these gender stereotypes, this massogy in Moire, so on

105
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,040
Speaker 1: and so forth, and you can just look at our

106
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,480
Speaker 1: history and see that. So I think that's the largest

107
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,719
Speaker 1: misconception that I see get around. It's about toughness and

108
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: things of that nature. Yeah, And I think that this

109
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,360
Speaker 1: idea of toughness really lends itself to this idea of

110
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity. Right, So that is often a term we

111
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,840
Speaker 1: hear kind of thrown around a lot. What do you

112
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,000
Speaker 1: see most normalized when we are talking about things like

113
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,919
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity? It's interesting is I think a lot of

114
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 1: things are normalized, but most of all, I actually would say,

115
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 1: I think a certain aspect of rape culture, to be honest,

116
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,600
Speaker 1: is the most normalized thing that I see in our

117
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 1: society right now. And the reason I say that is

118
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: because it's prevalent in our music, is prevalent in our entertainment,

119
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,600
Speaker 1: is prevalent in the conversations. And I as assists head man, right,

120
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 1: the way that people speak about women, the way that

121
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,840
Speaker 1: some of our artists speak about women, the way that

122
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 1: women have normalized being talking about, right, and then like

123
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 1: falsely equate that or rather correlate that to what they

124
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,479
Speaker 1: should want in a man right, aggression and things like that. Right.

125
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,160
Speaker 1: So I think that rape culture is probably, in my opinion,

126
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: the most prevalent form of toxic masculinity that's normalized. So

127
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: many thoughts come to mind. I think that's very timely

128
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 1: because I'm sure you saw this video that was going

129
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,600
Speaker 1: around last week about the friend at the party who

130
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: is always trying to force the girls to over drink right.

131
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,080
Speaker 1: And as someone with a background in college student mental health,

132
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: I was often shocked by how many people didn't understand

133
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 1: conversations around coersion and what consent actually looks like, especially

134
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 1: when you mix in alcohol and other substances. And you

135
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 1: also wrote for the Route about like continuing to support

136
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 1: r Kelly is not supporting black women, and so I

137
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,280
Speaker 1: love to just hear your thoughts about how can we

138
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: begin having those conversations with other black men? And I

139
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,520
Speaker 1: think this largely has to come from other black men,

140
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,160
Speaker 1: because black women have been talking until we passed out

141
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,320
Speaker 1: around this, and so I feel like it has to

142
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 1: be a conversation that has lived by black men. What

143
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,320
Speaker 1: does it look like to start those conversations. I think

144
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 1: every conversation, including that one, starts with accountability. For the

145
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: person right next to you, Right. I think that a

146
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,239
Speaker 1: lot of times when people are trying to make any

147
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 1: sort of change, they look at it in these large

148
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,320
Speaker 1: structural ways, but legitimately, and we say this to white

149
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 1: people in a regular basis about white supremacy, it starts

150
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 1: in your home, it starts in your family, it starts

151
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 1: with your friends. And I think the same thing goes

152
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,959
Speaker 1: for black men, right, Like, I'm not afraid to tell

153
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 1: the person at the gym who I work out with,

154
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: to tell one of my closest friends, to tell all

155
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 1: these are people around me, like, not only you're not right,

156
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 1: but I am actually going to put our friendship or

157
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: relationship on the line for this, right, Like, you have

158
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,040
Speaker 1: to have an actual stake in the game. And I

159
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 1: think that's what we don't have right now. Like even

160
00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 1: in the video that you're talking about, I did see

161
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: that from the comedian who I think it's now deleted,

162
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 1: But if you look under that post, right, was scared

163
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: me more about wasn't just the video itself in the context.

164
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:08,680
Speaker 1: It was thousands upon thousands of men laughing, oh this

165
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 1: is so and so and adding their friend this reminds

166
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 1: me it is so I've done this before, right, And

167
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: I saw another post by a young woman on Twitter

168
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: actually who was saying, if you have that friend, if

169
00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,400
Speaker 1: you know that person who's in this video, you need

170
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 1: to do something about it, right, And it's that simple

171
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: in my opinion. So you break up a really good

172
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 1: point that when we are having these conversations around racism,

173
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 1: it feels very easy for people to see, right, But

174
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: when we are having these conversations around misogyny and homophobia

175
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 1: massagey noir, it does seem like it is harder for

176
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,800
Speaker 1: brothers to see it. And so what kind of tips

177
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: would you give people for how to start those conversations,

178
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 1: because I think, yes, it is important to have those conversations,

179
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 1: like with the people in your immediate circle. But I

180
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 1: think people feel very awkward, like how do I tell

181
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 1: somebody not to laugh at this? Or what does it

182
00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,720
Speaker 1: even look like to start that conversation with somebody? You know?

183
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 1: I think the humans just naturally understand things based on

184
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,840
Speaker 1: their own oppression, right, which is why I think that

185
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,079
Speaker 1: a lot of times the few white women that there

186
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,439
Speaker 1: are who want to do something about like supremacy is

187
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,600
Speaker 1: because of their womanhood right there, Like, oh, I can

188
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 1: understand the oppression of black people simply because I have

189
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 1: an understanding of my oppression in patriarchy, and I think

190
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 1: that you have to approach a lot of men in

191
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: the same way. So it's not just a matter of oh,

192
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do this because that impacts this group. No,

193
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,320
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do this because it also impacts you. Write

194
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,200
Speaker 1: you are corroding your own soul but also your environment

195
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 1: around you. And I say this, actually, again, the patriarchy

196
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,840
Speaker 1: does how are you going to be liberated? As assists

197
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 1: at Black Man if black women and the black l

198
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 1: g B t Q plus community are not liberated, right,

199
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: it literally makes no sense. If you are for the

200
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: liberation of black people, you have to inherently be for

201
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 1: the liberation of all black people. So I think they're

202
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,360
Speaker 1: putting in terms that like relate to the person definitely

203
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: helps them begin that conversation of understanding the importance and implications. Yeah,

204
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 1: so let's say, you know, you see a friend pass

205
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 1: around like in your group, Chad, like that video that

206
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 1: has since been deleted, or some other kind of meme

207
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 1: that talks poorly about women. What should someone say in

208
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,080
Speaker 1: that moment? Well, I think the first thing you do

209
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,720
Speaker 1: once again is just ask them how they would feel

210
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 1: in X Y situation. And I've done that before where

211
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,319
Speaker 1: I've been at the gym and guys would be talking

212
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,160
Speaker 1: about women, right, or like even staring at women just

213
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: working out. You can't even work out as a woman.

214
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 1: A lot of times just doing these different things. I'm like, Okay,

215
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. Let's say you were

216
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,520
Speaker 1: the black guy in a predominantly white gym and people

217
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 1: are staring at you the same way because you're a

218
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,720
Speaker 1: black guy, right, just like examining you, fawning over you

219
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 1: this after how would you feel? And then a lot

220
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 1: of people it starts those gears turning right, like, oh,

221
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 1: I get it, And I think that again everybody relates

222
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 1: to understanding of oppression to their own oppression. And that's

223
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 1: where the conversations a lot of times have started with me.

224
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 1: And again you have to understand it's the beginning of

225
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,679
Speaker 1: a conversation, right, like at least you're broaching it, and

226
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 1: if the gears start turning now you can start getting

227
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 1: into some of the sort of depths of it. I

228
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,960
Speaker 1: appreciate it. So, what kinds of toxic tropes associated with

229
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 1: manhood and masculinely. Do you feel like you want to

230
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 1: see left behind? Oh? Oh, there's so many. I think

231
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 1: one example, I played football and basketball growing up, but

232
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 1: before that, I was really into drama. I was into

233
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,079
Speaker 1: musical theatery I love, I still love musical theater, but

234
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 1: I gave musical theater up because there was this false

235
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 1: correlation between musical theater and being in the lgbt Q

236
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,319
Speaker 1: plus community. Right, and I'm ten years old. I don't

237
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 1: even know what that means, but it's been talked about negatively,

238
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 1: So I'm like a lot. I don't want to do that.

239
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,880
Speaker 1: It's the right thing is to hit people, right, and

240
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 1: things like that. So I think that one of the

241
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,559
Speaker 1: things I want to see go away is the correlation

242
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: negatively of certain things being equated to other things. Right,

243
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 1: It's just like, be yourself as a man. It is

244
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: okay to throw a football, it's okay to dance, it's

245
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 1: okay to cry, it's okay to laugh. Like it's so

246
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,800
Speaker 1: bad now that I've literally seen posts on Twitter where

247
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 1: guys are like, I don't eat bananas in public because

248
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 1: of corre lance is something that pertains to the gay community.

249
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: Just that makes like we can't be serious, right, we

250
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 1: cannot be serious. How are you going to limit what

251
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 1: you eat publicly because of how deep your own homophobia is? Right,

252
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,600
Speaker 1: So that's something I want to just see left behind,

253
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 1: is how much men limit themselves based on their homophobia. Yeah,

254
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 1: until one of your earlier points, like, I don't think

255
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 1: that men always think about it in those ways, right,

256
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,320
Speaker 1: Like they kind of associate toughness and like all of

257
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 1: these very modo stereotypes with what masculinity means, and don't

258
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: always look at the ways that they are kind of

259
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 1: limiting themselves and each other by buying into patriarchy. Oh. Absolutely,

260
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,839
Speaker 1: I mean my view of patriarchy is we are all implicated, right,

261
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,080
Speaker 1: Primarily it's Cis had men, but every one of us, right,

262
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: I see on a regular basis, Like there's a post

263
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 1: earlier and I saw about Ziah Wade, the waves Is Daughter,

264
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: And the post I saw was deeply transphobic, but it

265
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: came from a black woman, right, And that made me

266
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: so sad. And I'm like, you're not only upholding transphobia,

267
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 1: you're upholding the systems that inherently oppress you. Right. In

268
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 1: other ways, you're normalizing the things that I'm trying to

269
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: talk to black men about and then also the same

270
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 1: things I'm trying to talk to white women about in

271
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 1: this book. Right, It's like, on one hand, you'll wear

272
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: the paint hats, set the march and this and that third,

273
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: but then you can't go home to a Trump supporting husband, right,

274
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 1: you can't say, oh, grab him by to this and

275
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 1: at the third I hate that, blah blah blah, but

276
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 1: then still marry this man who's upholding no systems because

277
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: inherently then you're upholding the system too. So you know, again,

278
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 1: I think that there's just so much that needs to

279
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,720
Speaker 1: be done, in so many conversations that we need to have.

280
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 1: So you already kind of alluded to it, but I'd

281
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: love to hear a little bit more about why you

282
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 1: decided to write Patriarchy Blues, especially right now. You know,

283
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: it's interesting Patriarchy Blues was about ten different books at

284
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 1: different points. You know, I just I want to call out,

285
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, the publishing industry is very difficult for black authors,

286
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,120
Speaker 1: but I think it's especially difficult when you're trying to

287
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: write something of substance. In their view is that the

288
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 1: only people who read is white women. Right, that's the

289
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: view in publishing circles for the most part. So the

290
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,840
Speaker 1: reason I wanted to write this and I fought so

291
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: hard to get it made, is because I saw the

292
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,400
Speaker 1: utility in a black man having the courage to call

293
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: himself out, not just to point the finger at other people. Right.

294
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 1: Like in this book, you know, there's one letter I

295
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: write to my babysitter. She molested me from eight to

296
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: ten years old, right, And I never told any buy

297
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 1: about that, And I wrote a letter to her because

298
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: I understood that letter helped me heal, but also was

299
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 1: healing because we don't talk about how many black and

300
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: brown children are molested and then specifically and hyper sexualized

301
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 1: if they are a lot of times, and that view,

302
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 1: in that hyper sexuality lens that we have on them

303
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: doesn't get the conversations that you get for like white children,

304
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 1: for example. Right. And then what I write in that

305
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: letter is that I spent so much time in my

306
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: hatred for what she had did to me, taking that

307
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 1: hatred and then using it as a weapon against women,

308
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 1: specifically black women. Right. So I tried to take the

309
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,480
Speaker 1: pieces of me that she stole and basically still them

310
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: from other women and so I wanted to have that

311
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 1: conversation along with a conversation about my father and not

312
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 1: about not being their conversations about violence and all these

313
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 1: different things, because I just when I looked around, they

314
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 1: weren't being had right, like like they just we're not

315
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 1: having them. So if I'm gonna use my hands for

316
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 1: good words, I could still use them. I just was like,

317
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: somebody has to have them. So if you see that

318
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,240
Speaker 1: they don't exist, why don't you start try to start

319
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: them to a certain extent. More from my conversation with

320
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 1: Frederick after the break, you know, I really appreciate you

321
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 1: being so transparent with us Frederick around you know, your

322
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: your mass diagnosis, and now with this early experience of molestation,

323
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 1: and clearly you've shared this in the book, it sounds

324
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: like too. I'm just wondering about the process for you

325
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 1: personally putting this on the page right, and what are

326
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 1: you feeling now as it is close to release. I

327
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,199
Speaker 1: said this in a note earlier to someone who received

328
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,920
Speaker 1: the book. I said that the book was two things.

329
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 1: One it was cathartic, and two it was necessary for

330
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 1: my survival. I think that being this vulnerable was purposeful

331
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 1: in that allows me to ask other people to be

332
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 1: vulnerable with themselves, right, because I think that's the work

333
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: that we need to do, because, like I said, there's

334
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 1: countless people who were molested, Countless boys and girls whose

335
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 1: father or parent wasn't around. There's countless people who have

336
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,240
Speaker 1: been violent. There's counless people have been on the other

337
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,560
Speaker 1: end of violence. There's countless people who are sex workers.

338
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,639
Speaker 1: There's all these different things are in this book. But

339
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,719
Speaker 1: unless the person who's offering the thoughts is willing to

340
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 1: go there with you, you're not gonna necessarily want to

341
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,120
Speaker 1: go there with yourself. And that's what I wanted to

342
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,239
Speaker 1: do in this space, and it healed me. I I

343
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,000
Speaker 1: truly mean that. It's this book saved my life and

344
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 1: and it probably saved my relationship with many people. M

345
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 1: m mmmm yeah. You know, to your comments around molestation,

346
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 1: especially when we see boys, there is this very warped

347
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 1: since that, oh you became a man early, and you know,

348
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 1: like that kind of thing, which is not typically the

349
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: language we use when girls are molested, and definitely not

350
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,880
Speaker 1: with non black people, right. You know, So I really

351
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,159
Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing that piece because I do think we

352
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 1: don't talk about childhood sexual abuse in general enough, I

353
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: think in the black community, especially when it happens with boys,

354
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, I remember the reason I

355
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,159
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna write about it, and it comes towards the

356
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 1: end of the book. But when I looked back at

357
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: the books, the book is set up in different sections,

358
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: and one of the sections is called in Defensive Black Women, right,

359
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,880
Speaker 1: And it's just me writing about all these different structures

360
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: and things that are happening that directly pertaining the black

361
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 1: women misogyn noir, are you talking about the way people

362
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,239
Speaker 1: responded to the moment with making the stallion and her

363
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: being shot and things like that, and how we respond

364
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: to harm against black women. But when I got through

365
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 1: the book and I looked back, right, I said, Okay,

366
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 1: there's all these things that I also saw myself in.

367
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,360
Speaker 1: What was the beginning of that? What was the impetus

368
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: of my pain? And I was like, I cannot write

369
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,440
Speaker 1: about this. And it just happened to be that week

370
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 1: I saw this video about little Wayne who had lost

371
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: his virginity too. I've leave a sex worker who was

372
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 1: paid and he was like twelve years old, and it

373
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: was so normalized amongst him, and it was so normalized

374
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 1: that he then years later paid another sex worker to

375
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 1: take the virginity of somebody on his label who was

376
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 1: about thirteen or fourteen years old. Right. And I remember

377
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 1: I cried so hard when I saw that, because I said,

378
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,639
Speaker 1: I wonder if something existed that somebody could read and

379
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: somebody can understand what this have not happened? Right? And

380
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 1: I searched the internet. I scoured the internet for any

381
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: books when people were talking about it was so rare.

382
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: That's mab three three books ever talking about this issue. Right.

383
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 1: So I said, Okay, if I'm gonna put something in there,

384
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: if I'm gonna have this platform, you gotta be honest

385
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: about it. What happened to you and what the implications

386
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: of it are on all these things you've spoken about before.

387
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that you feel like Bill Hooks and

388
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,239
Speaker 1: her work was a large part of inspiration for you.

389
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: I wonder if there are other points of inspiration that

390
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 1: you want to share other authors who have us is

391
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 1: did you, in producing your work, are along your a

392
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: healing journey? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, And I named some of

393
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: them actually in the book, and I think them Mickey

394
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: Kendall wrote the book Hood Feminism is phenomenal. She's a friend,

395
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: She's just a brilliant person bringing news and a brilliant

396
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: thought leader on Twitter and other spaces. Angela Davis Asada.

397
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: She core like to be honest, which is all black

398
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: women and black women specifically who are womanists, right, like,

399
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: people who are looking at the world in in intersectional ways.

400
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 1: I think that, frankly, is one of the failures of

401
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 1: you know, mainstream feminism is that a lot of people

402
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: are like, Oh, it's the patriarchy is men versus women,

403
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, it's so much more than that, right,

404
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: It's it's so much more than that. It's so much

405
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: more than that simple idea. So I really wanted to

406
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: find intersectional feminists and womanists who were talking about again, transphobia, homophobia,

407
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: class structures, and these conversations were important, especially recently what

408
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: we saw up with the oscars and whatnot, an understanding

409
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: how to unpack even that moment. So, you know, there's

410
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: just so much inspiration. My fiance say, just being impatient

411
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 1: with me, Yeah, I understand that. There's also an excite

412
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: in the book around Dave Chappelle and everything that had

413
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: kind of been going along with him. Can you see

414
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: a little bit about why that felt important to include. Yeah,

415
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,959
Speaker 1: I think that one of the most important parts of

416
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: the book might be that Dave Chappelle essay, because so

417
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: often our idols, the people who we built monuments to, fail, right,

418
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: And that should be okay as long as you're willing

419
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: to grow. The issue that I have is when our idols,

420
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: the people we look up to from the time where

421
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: kids double down because it's not a joke, right, A

422
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: lot of these things are actually life and death like,

423
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 1: and we see that with jokes about transport me right,

424
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: like you're talking about I'm fine with kind of like

425
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: punching up right, And I think Dave Chappelle, you know,

426
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: I write about this. Dave Chappelle made a career on that,

427
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: like punching up at like supremacy, punching up at the

428
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: wealthy white class and things like that. And then it's

429
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: even a thing when we start punching laterally making jokes

430
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: about other black men, so and so forth, when you

431
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: start punching down right at a community who had the

432
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: highest murder rate in recorded history in the year that

433
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 1: these specials came out, that Dave Chappelle was making these

434
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: trans jokes. Right, That's when I have an issue because

435
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: it's not just about jokes, as about what you are normalizing,

436
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: what behavior you're normalizing. And I think that just being frank,

437
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: it's also at the root of my issue with Chris Rock, right,

438
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: Will Smith aside and all these different things. We don't

439
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: need to be normalizing black women being the butt of

440
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: our jokes because black women are inherently the butt of

441
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: the last aspects of all forms of oppression. You have

442
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: black women who are suffering from the patriarchy. Black women

443
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: are suffering from my supremacy, blackground and suffering from classism.

444
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: Black women are suffering from patriarchal violence at the hands

445
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 1: of black men, at the hands of white men, at

446
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: the hands of the police, so on and so forth.

447
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: So what you're doing is not just making jokes. If

448
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: you are Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, whomever, you were normalizing

449
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: not just behaviors. You were normalizing ideologies, right. You were

450
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: making it okay to make jokes about black women in

451
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: front of millions of white viewers. You were normalizing making

452
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: jokes about trans people. As people's hatred against the trans

453
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: community has never been greater systemically, politically legally so on

454
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: and so forth. So so I write about it. M So,

455
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: I am imagining this is something that happened recently, so

456
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: too reason for you to have included in your book.

457
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: But it feels like a very stark contrast to Dave

458
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: Chappelle's style of comedy. Is Gerard Carmichael's most recent comedy

459
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: special Overrothaniel. Have you had a chance to see that? Yeah? So,

460
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: I mean so it feels to me like a stark

461
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: contrast to Dave Chappelle, but also feels like it fits

462
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: very nicely with a lot of what you have talked

463
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: about and like really pushing back against I think some

464
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: very toxic masculinity kind of ideals. I'm just curious about

465
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: your thoughts around that special. Yeah, I thought the special

466
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: was well done. I think that draw car Michael. It's

467
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: interesting if you watch his career closely and his other

468
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: special actually on HBO, he kind of alluded to getting

469
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: to this point a little bit, right, and I love

470
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: that and this special He's just like, this is what

471
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: it is, and also this is like what accountability to

472
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: like the people around me kind of looks like, and

473
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, and the things that have harmed me and

474
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: the things that have been said and done. So I

475
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: really did love that because I think that there's a

476
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: little bit of that in every person who has suffered

477
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: quietly at the hands of the patriarchy. And not everybody

478
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: gets an HBO special, you know. Not everybody gets to

479
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: make Moonlight, not everybody gets to have, you know, the

480
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: voice of Red Table Talk whenever we get that. Not

481
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: everybody gets these platforms, but I think it's important when

482
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: they do, because it's a symbol of more than just themselves.

483
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: So I really love that special, you know. So, how

484
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: do you feel like you were changed by writing Patriarchy Blues.

485
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: I think that m I let things go. I let

486
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: things go so I can be the person that I

487
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: want to become. Right, I'm not there, you know, and

488
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: I think that's important. I'm not there. I'm on my way.

489
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: When I finished writing it, I said, I think the

490
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: last piece in it is like patriarchy at the beginning,

491
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: and it has an ending, right, and we all have

492
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: to be a part of that ending. And I don't

493
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: know that before writing this book I ever really thought

494
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: about that, right. I was just like, oh, well, like

495
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: in my immediate circles, I don't want to be a

496
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: certain person. But I never really understood until writing this

497
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 1: book and actually going through the history of patriarchy, right, like,

498
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: how it actually can end, Like we can end it

499
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: in our households, we can end it in our communities

500
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, because it's like it

501
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: wasn't always there. And I think also the other thing

502
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: that changed me in writing Patriarchy Blues. I'm more hopeful,

503
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: right I'm more hopeful because I think that people who

504
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: have received the book are hopeful, and I think that

505
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: that makes me feel like I'm in community. There are

506
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: men who have read it, there are women who have

507
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: read it. There there are people who don't get it.

508
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: But the people who do get it and do enjoy it,

509
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: they give me hope, right like we can actually do this.

510
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: And I think that's what we're left with in whatever

511
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: system that we're fighting of oppression, whether it be patriarchy

512
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: or white supremacy, we have to have hope. In this

513
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: book gave me that. M more from my conversation with

514
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: Frederick after the break, how are you hoping that readers

515
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: will engage with it? You know, the book is not

516
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: a how to God, and I think that's important for

517
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: people to know. It's not a how to God, is

518
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: not how to begin anti patriarch or anything like that.

519
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: It is a very deep personal reflection, and I hope

520
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: that people engage with it as if they are on

521
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: this conversation with you, and I write now out right.

522
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: I want people to take parts of it, sound bites, moments,

523
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: and sit with it and use it as a mirror, right, like,

524
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: legitimately use it as a mirror in the ways in

525
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: which they have been implicated. Like, there's some hard concepts

526
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: in there that I didn't even start really understanding until

527
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: maybe eight nine years ago, right, Like just even the

528
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: idea that our binaries are constructs, right, and like that

529
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: any gender norms that we have are based on constructs,

530
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: like the simple idea that like, I don't think a

531
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: lot of people realize women couldn't even wear pants like

532
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: fifty years ago, and so all these different things that

533
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: have existed in time are legitimate constructs. And I think

534
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: that when you force people to have to take a

535
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: step back and look around at their world and be like, oh,

536
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: this is basically just the matrixbody just making all this

537
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: up as we go, that's a hard pill to swallow sometimes,

538
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: but I'm hoping that people digested in bites like that

539
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: to make it an easier pill. You know, Frederick, I'm

540
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: wondering if you are worried at all about you know,

541
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: you've been seeing so much ridiculous news around, like book bands,

542
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: and you can't read these certain books. Are you worried

543
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: at all about your book being impacted by any of that? Well,

544
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: I think my first book is banned in twenty seven schools.

545
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: You know my show My first Book is banned, said

546
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: the school that there's actually a video of somebody burning

547
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: my book in upstate New York. A guy in like Pennsylvania,

548
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: so his daughter reading my first book and like took

549
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: it from her and threw it out because this book

550
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: is not for young adults like my first book was.

551
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: I think there'll be less bands hopefully, right, Like I

552
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: I want this book to be in the hands grown folks,

553
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: like people who are I mean young people as well.

554
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: But I think grown people sometimes we think we don't

555
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: need to learn something, And that's the lie of age, right,

556
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: Like you think that the older you get, the less

557
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: you need to learn. But a lot of times the

558
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: older you get, the more you need to learn, the

559
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: more you need to grow. So I'm hoping that you

560
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: can't really ban and grown as person from reading the book,

561
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: so that doesn't happen. You're right, right, So do you

562
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: have any parting advice for men who are wanting to

563
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: be better? I think that the first step is trying right.

564
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: The reality of it is. When I started this book,

565
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: I asked myself two questions. I said, one, can we

566
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: as a society be better about misogyny and specifically misogyn

567
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: noir and sexism. The other question I asked myself is

568
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: can we change in relation to grape culture, transforivia, homophobia,

569
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: glass ceilings, so on and so forth. And I had

570
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: to have the audacity to say yes, right, And I

571
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: think that the first step and change is having the

572
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: audacity to believe that change is possible. For men, and

573
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: specifically black men who want to be better. You have

574
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: to look in at mirror and have the audacity to

575
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: tell yourself that you can grow and like in the

576
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: idea that you don't need to grow as a lot,

577
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: we all need to grow. As I sit on this

578
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: call right now, there is something that I'm gonna look

579
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: back on it like I wish I would have said this.

580
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: I wish I would have added that, I wish I

581
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: would have done this, And that is how we grow

582
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: by always self examining ourselves. Right, So I pray that

583
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: black men give this book a chance. And if you

584
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: don't give this book a chance, that's actually fine with me.

585
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: I pray that black men give Bell Hooks a chance.

586
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: I pray that black men give us ode of a chance,

587
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: and Angela Davis and all these great theorists of women's

588
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: perspective and women'st hope. Right. So that's my parting advice.

589
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: You're gonna stumble, You're gonna fall, But you know, cliche

590
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: or not, it's about how you get up. It's how

591
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: you hold yourself accountable to the people around you. How

592
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: are you holding itself accountable to the women in your life,

593
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: the lgbt Q plus community around you, yourself, How you're

594
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: holding yourself accountable to yourself because the only person that

595
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: you're being toxic for at the end of the day

596
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: is you. You know, if I doing something else I'm

597
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: curious about it is I hear you talking. I'm wondering,

598
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: like what your friendship circles with other men look like

599
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: now that you are more committed to do in this work.

600
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, like how it has changed your really

601
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: a ship with other brothers. Yeah, you know, it's funny.

602
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: I actually had a text message this morning that I

603
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: hadn't checked. There's actually a few weeks old. I'm really

604
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: bad at texting, but I noticed that one of my friends,

605
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: who had known for years, we played sports together, so

606
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: on and so for, he actually unfollowed me on every

607
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: social media platform. Luckily, I have hundreds of thousands followers,

608
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: so I'm not really checking necessarily, but like I was like,

609
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't seen someone so in a long time.

610
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: So like I looked, I was like, oh, he's un following.

611
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: So I went to my text messages with him. He

612
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: sent me this long message. It's about someone in my

613
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: life who is trans, and he sends me this message

614
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: like I'm not into all of that. I can't do that,

615
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: and so I don't want to be your friend anymore.

616
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: And that's how much some people are holding on to

617
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: this corrosive, patriarchal world that we live in. And I

618
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna say anything back, but I sent my voice

619
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: memoent and I basically told I basically told him, you know,

620
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: that's okay, because I'm working towards right now is actually

621
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: gonna free you And you don't realize it yet, but

622
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm working towards right now. Is going to free the

623
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: children that you don't have yet, because you don't know

624
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: who those children are gonna be. You sometimes in certain ways,

625
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: don't even know who you are yet because you are

626
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: so not free. You're holding yourself so accountable in the

627
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: wrong things that you're willing to give up a twenty

628
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: year friendship because of how someone else exists in this world.

629
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: Stick with that, because that doesn't sound like freedom. So

630
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: at least in that situation, that friendship ended. Yeah, yeah,

631
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: that friendships over And you know I'm better now. I mean, look,

632
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: I got you now, so who I love it? So

633
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: tell us where can we stay connected to you? Where?

634
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: Where can we grab a copy of the book? Where

635
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: can we stay connected with all the work that you're doing.

636
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: Everyone could find me on Twitter or Instagram at fred

637
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: T Joseph. I'm always rabble rousing on one of those.

638
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: And in terms of the book, Patriarchy Blues comes out

639
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: MAWO and it's available wherever books are sold, especially places

640
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: that are sold and owned by black women. Well, thank you,

641
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: fred We appreciate it, thanks for having me. A huge

642
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: thank you to Frederick for joining me today. Be sure

643
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: to order your copy of Patriarchy Blues wherever you buy

644
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: your books, and text this episode to two of your

645
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: girls right now so they can check it out as well.

646
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be

647
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for

648
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want

649
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

650
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

651
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: in the System Circle. It's our cozy corner of the

652
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: internet design just for black women. You can join us

653
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: at community nott Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This

654
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Freda Lucas and Elice Ellis and

655
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all

656
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

657
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with if you all real

658
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: soon take it here