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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free,

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Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to Breaking Points. Emily.

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Speaker 4: I was just telling Mac, I feel like we need

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Speaker 4: to do like a four or five hour show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we can easily fill four to five hours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot to get through today.

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Speaker 5: Just yesterday was Jimpac News Day. Today's Jimpacnewsday. Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: is in the UK, he's doing a state visit. There's

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Speaker 5: going to be all kinds of stuff for Crystal and

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Speaker 5: Sager to talk about tomorrow. I'm sure they'll have stuff

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Speaker 5: talk abou when it comes in Ukraine and all of

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Speaker 5: that but just man, do we have a lot to

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Speaker 5: get through.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and we've got a lot more information about the

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Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk assassination start with that. We're also going to

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Speaker 4: be joined after that by Ken Clivenstein, who once again,

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Speaker 4: in the midst of one of these investigations, managed to

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Speaker 4: get his hands on some significant documents and reporting and

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Speaker 4: published it, giving us deeper insight into the kind of social.

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Speaker 3: Network of the alleged shooter.

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Speaker 4: So we'll be speaking with him TikTok maybe falling maybe so. Yes,

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Speaker 4: So there's a deal with what is it Oracle and

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Speaker 4: Resent Horowitz Oracles, Larry Allison's company now the richest man

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Speaker 4: in the world, who has by the way, donated millions

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Speaker 4: upon millions of dollars to the.

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Speaker 3: Friends of the IDF like.

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Speaker 4: So that's who is now going to be owning TikTok

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Speaker 4: if this deal goes through.

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Speaker 3: He's also going to own.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the rest of the media after then CBA,

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Speaker 4: his son, the Allison family is going to own.

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Speaker 3: A lot of what's in front of your face.

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Speaker 5: Big chunk, yes, big chunk of it.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 4: Cash Betel testified before the Senate yesterday. Interesting Epstein stuff.

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Speaker 5: There, right, Yeah, we're going to break down the Epstein stuff.

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Speaker 5: Of course, he talked also about other aspects and we

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Speaker 5: learned particularly some interesting details. I don't know if you

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Speaker 5: saw this, Bryan yet, but Chuck Grassley revealed some new

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Speaker 5: documents about Arctic Frost, like Operation Arctic Frost, which is

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Speaker 5: apparently an FBI probe into groups like Turning Point USA

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Speaker 5: actually related to the twenty twenty election and how they

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Speaker 5: may have been they were subpoenaed to nail down with

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Speaker 5: the FBI. I thought was a conspiracy to overturn that election.

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Speaker 5: So Cashptel is talking all kinds of things yesterday. Epstein

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Speaker 5: Kirk January sixth, still and the seen stuff in particular

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Speaker 5: is really worth picking through. It looks like it's possible

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Speaker 5: he lied under oath, so we have a lot to

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Speaker 5: get to on that front. Also, Luigi Maingioni, his terrorism

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Speaker 5: charges were dropped yesterday, so obviously he's still on trial

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Speaker 5: for murder, still charged with murder, but the terrorism aspect

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Speaker 5: of that means the sentencing will be different.

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Speaker 4: And meanwhile, you and Crystal are in trouble, oh gosh,

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Speaker 4: or you guys can look this up. They're actually in trouble.

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Speaker 5: Me slash Crystal. Nobody knows who's.

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Speaker 4: Crystal reported as a journalist would do that. It matters,

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Speaker 4: apparently to the public that Luigi is more attractive than

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Speaker 4: Tyler Robinson. Yeah, you got in trouble for chuckling.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think I wasn't paying attention. So did I like

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Speaker 4: dodge that bullet?

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Speaker 5: You made a boogloo boys joke. But I think maybe

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Speaker 5: it's just too much of a deep cut. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: too much of a deep cut to get in trouble. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Fox News watching our show now and clipping it and

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Speaker 4: putting it up on their show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. The sad part of it is that my streak

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Speaker 5: of not makeup for the Friday shows is over. If

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Speaker 5: cable news producers are.

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Speaker 4: Watching it, worry about those producers.

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Speaker 5: We'll see, there's only so much time in a day.

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Speaker 4: And then we'll be talking about the incursion, the ongoing

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Speaker 4: incursion into Gaza. There is a systematic effort to destroy

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Speaker 4: any building that has any connection to Gaza city history.

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Speaker 4: We'll talk about that as well as a new UN

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Speaker 4: Commission on Investigations determination that what everybody has been saying

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Speaker 4: is true that Israel is committing genocide. But this is

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Speaker 4: now the United Nations saying it. We'll talk about talk

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Speaker 4: about that as well as the Genoa doc workers resolving

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Speaker 4: to go to launch a port strike on September twenty second,

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Speaker 4: if the humanitarian flotilla on its way to Gaza is impeded.

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Speaker 4: So we'll get in, we'll get into all of that.

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Speaker 4: Let's start with Let's start with Charlie Kirk.

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Speaker 5: Yes, so Tyler Robinson was former charged in Utah yesterday,

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Speaker 5: and we actually have a clip of Robinson's interaction with

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Speaker 5: the judge. We're going to go through the full charging

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Speaker 5: document is about ten pages long. Will break out some

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Speaker 5: of the critical moments of it. Let's first start with

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Speaker 5: this video of Robinson and a judge yesterday in Utah.

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Speaker 7: Mister Robinson recount one aggravated murder, a capital felony and

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Speaker 7: violation of Utah Code annotated seventy six Dash five Dash

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Speaker 7: two two In that on September tenth, twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 7: in Utah County, the defendant, Tyler James Robinson intentionally or

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Speaker 7: knownly caused the death of Charlie Kirk under the following circumstances.

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Speaker 7: The defendant knowingly created a great risk of death to

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Speaker 7: another individual other than Charlie Kirk and the defendant.

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Speaker 8: Notice.

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Speaker 7: Conviction of this offense may carry the death penalty or

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Speaker 7: pursued to UTAH Code seventy six three Dash two oh

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Speaker 7: seven point seven, a mandatory mandatory term of prison for

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Speaker 7: life without parole, or an indeterminate term of not less

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Speaker 7: than twenty five years that may be for life. Victim

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Speaker 7: targeting enhancement and violation of UTAH Code annotated seventy six

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Speaker 7: Dash three Dash two oh three point one four sub two.

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Speaker 7: Tyler James Robinson intentionally selected Charlie Kirk because of Tyler

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Speaker 7: James Robinson's belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression.

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Speaker 7: Notice if the tryer fact finds beyond a reasonable doubt

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Speaker 7: that the victim targeting enhancement applies.

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Speaker 5: So this is one critical excerpt from the charging documents.

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Speaker 5: We can go through this on the screen right now.

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Speaker 5: We're actually gonna read through basically the whole thing, because

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Speaker 5: this is an exchange with Robinson and Robinson's roommate slash Lover.

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Speaker 5: Robinson said, I am still okay at my love, but

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Speaker 5: and stuck in orum for a little while longer. This

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Speaker 5: is after the shooting shouldn't be long until I can

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Speaker 5: come home, but I got to grab my rifle still.

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Speaker 5: To be honest, I'd hope to keep this secret till

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Speaker 5: I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you,

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Speaker 5: the roommate identified in the charging document as a roommate.

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Speaker 5: You weren't the one who did it, right, Robinson, I am,

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Speaker 5: I'm sorry, roommate. I thought they caught the person, Robinson. No,

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Speaker 5: they grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated someone in

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Speaker 5: similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from

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Speaker 5: my drop points shortly after, but most of that side

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Speaker 5: of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to

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Speaker 5: get out, but there's one vehicle lingering. The roommate says why.

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Speaker 5: Robinson says, why did I do it? Roommate? Yeah, Robinson,

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Speaker 5: I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be

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Speaker 5: negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen,

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Speaker 5: I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to

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Speaker 5: retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't

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Speaker 5: seen anything about them finding it. How long have you

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Speaker 5: been planning this? A bit over a week, Robinson replies,

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Speaker 5: I believe I can get close to it. But there's

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Speaker 5: a squad car parked by it. I think they already

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Speaker 5: swept that spot, but I don't want a chance that

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Speaker 5: Robinson goes on. I'm wishing I had circled back and

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Speaker 5: grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle.

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Speaker 5: I'm worried what my old man would do if I

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Speaker 5: didn't bring back Grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if

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Speaker 5: it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me.

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Speaker 5: I worry about Prince. I had to leave it in

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Speaker 5: a bush where I changed outfits, didn't have the ability

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Speaker 5: or time to bring it with I might have to

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Speaker 5: abandon it and hope they don't find Prince. How the

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Speaker 5: fuck will explain losing it to my old man? Only

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Speaker 5: thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel.

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Speaker 5: Remember how I was engraving bullets. The fucking messages are

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Speaker 5: mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU

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Speaker 5: on Fox New, I might have a stroke. All right,

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Speaker 5: I'm gonna have to leave it. That really fucking sucks,

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Speaker 5: so Ryan A lots break down from that exchange. Obviously,

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Speaker 5: there are other messages being left out, which I'm curious.

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Speaker 5: What else the investigators have at this point, because what

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Speaker 5: they're including in the charging document is just to make

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Speaker 5: the charger stick. It's to make their point that they

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Speaker 5: have evidence he did this. He did it because he

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Speaker 5: said Charlie represented hate that can't be negotiated out. It's

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Speaker 5: abundantly clear at this point that it was somebody who

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Speaker 5: was targeting Kirk from the left, and there are all

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Speaker 5: kinds of layers of irony, of course, going in as

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Speaker 5: they mentioned the notices, Bulge's meme, on the bullet engravings,

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Speaker 5: all that stuff obviously still exists. But what do you

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Speaker 5: make of that exchange?

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Speaker 4: There were To me going into it, there were three

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Speaker 4: possible motivations that a shooter like this could have. One

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Speaker 4: would be just pure nihilistic notoriety. Two would be fuentest

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Speaker 4: group Groyper style. Why I'm a white nationalist and I

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Speaker 4: think that this guy's too far the left of them

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Speaker 4: bitterly hated, bitterly hate each other, or from the left

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Speaker 4: somebody in the LGBT world who thinks that Charlie Kirk

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Speaker 4: is film with hate towards them, And so this seems

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Speaker 4: like it's the third possibility.

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Speaker 3: Right like that, it just seems pretty.

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Speaker 5: Clear right, doesn't seem like it was some sort of

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Speaker 5: like communist, correct, William McKinley, It seems like it was

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Speaker 5: a cultural like you were saying, gender motivated.

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Speaker 4: Right, right, which which is which is interesting because there's

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Speaker 4: also something very contemporary about the way that we're analyzing

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Speaker 4: this or how we're all trying to get inside the

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Speaker 4: guy's head and divine his his precise political ideology and

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Speaker 4: his precise thoughts. When in the past, like you said,

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Speaker 4: say McKinley, or you know, say some anarchists who killed

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Speaker 4: Bazaar or somebody, or John wist Booth killing Lincoln, what

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Speaker 4: you do is you look for their associates and their

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Speaker 4: political faction that they are connected with, Like what is

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Speaker 4: the material political tendency that exists that is organized to

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Speaker 4: carry out this action?

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Speaker 8: Uh?

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Speaker 3: And that's a materialist understanding of the world.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 3: What we have is an ideological.

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Speaker 4: Idealist even and I don't mean idealist as in like

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Speaker 4: somebody who loves world, just idealist and kind of the

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Speaker 4: Marxist sense of the term.

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Speaker 3: Uh, where you're getting into somebody's ideas.

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Speaker 4: There's something very contemporarily I said about that, because it's

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Speaker 4: it's it's neoliberal it's individualistic. It's it's it's it's pull

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Speaker 4: it's kind of pulling society apart, just saying that there

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Speaker 4: is no society. They're all we have are just individual thoughts.

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Speaker 4: And then if we can figure out what this individual

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Speaker 4: thought is that drove him to do this thing, then

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Speaker 4: if we find the other people that share those thoughts,

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Speaker 4: we crack down on all of that. Uh, and that's

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Speaker 4: the solution to it. And and yeah, that's that's kind

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Speaker 4: of a dark.

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Speaker 3: Place to take this too.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there's there's there's just something very present in

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Speaker 4: our politics about just rooting through this guy's mind trying

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Speaker 4: to try to figure it out. Now this at the

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Speaker 4: same time, maybe that's cope on my part because going

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Speaker 4: into this, I would have hoped that it was not

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Speaker 4: somebody from the left, because I don't want to believe

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Speaker 4: that that's that the left is capable of doing that.

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Speaker 4: And the left broadly did not do this. A person

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Speaker 4: who felt Charlie Kirk was filled with hate did this.

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Speaker 5: And there's micro and macro.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and like you said, it's not they're not communists

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Speaker 4: and socialists, not anarchists. And we're going to talk to

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Speaker 4: Ken Cliffstein about this.

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Speaker 3: Not that we know, it didn't seem to have who knows,

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Speaker 3: we'll see.

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Speaker 4: It, but like it doesn't seem like he had those.

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Speaker 4: It was more theo's cultural politics. Yeah, well, now maybe

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Speaker 4: we will find that there was some organized militia associated

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Speaker 4: with this, who knows.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's still a lot to learn.

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Speaker 5: The zizy and stuff out there. There's all kinds of

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Speaker 5: weird possibilities that we haven't gotten to the bottom of yet,

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Speaker 5: and there are a lot of unanswered questions that remain.

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Speaker 5: I have been thinking about this in recent days along

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Speaker 5: the lines of micro blame and macro blame. Micro Blame

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Speaker 5: is important because you know, this is this person, from

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Speaker 5: what we know, would not have been stopped by Gavin

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Speaker 5: Newsom or Joe Biden or Josh Shapiro before the shooting happened,

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Speaker 5: coming out and in fact, Gavin Newsom sat down with

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Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk and debated some of this. Actually, just within

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Speaker 5: recent minds, It's not as though this person would have

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Speaker 5: been persuaded to stop a plot of political violence by

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Speaker 5: Barack Obama coming out and saying political violence is wrong.

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Speaker 5: That's not the case. This person is responsible for pulling

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Speaker 5: the trigger, as far as we know as of right now,

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Speaker 5: we're not saying any other questions are irrelevant, because they are,

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Speaker 5: and I'm going to get to that in just one moment.

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Speaker 5: But that's the micro blame. The macro blame is, yes,

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Speaker 5: a climate where more and more people associate think, what

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Speaker 5: are our good faith, mainstream political disagreements with hate? And

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Speaker 5: that's a different question. You know, that wouldn't be solved

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Speaker 5: like that either. You snap your fingers, that wouldn't be

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Speaker 5: solved like that either. But I do think that's something

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Speaker 5: we genuinely need to think about.

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Speaker 9: Uh.

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Speaker 5: And of course, not saying, you know, someone brought this up,

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Speaker 5: the over application of the term groomers by people on

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Speaker 5: the right. I'm not saying, you know, something like that

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Speaker 5: isn't wrong. But a conservative was just gunned down in

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Speaker 5: cold blood on a college campus. So it's appropriate right

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Speaker 5: now to spend a little bit of time reflecting on

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Speaker 5: how we got from from point A to point b

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Speaker 5: Ryan on that, I also think it's worth knowing. Steve

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Speaker 5: Bannon has said he doesn't buy these text messages. He

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Speaker 5: says they feel a little bit too scripted. He says

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Speaker 5: it seems like a script, actually a bad script. What

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Speaker 5: did you make of this? Some people. We were talking

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Speaker 5: to producer Mac before the show. He was saying, the

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Speaker 5: even the word vehicle. Using the word vehicle is a

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Speaker 5: little weird. In text messages to a friend, the old

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Speaker 5: man line is when people have pulled out, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Well, so I listened, I listened to take on this

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Speaker 4: and yeah, he's saying, I don't buy this. This feels

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Speaker 4: like it's too convenient, it's too scripted. It he's laying

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Speaker 4: out all the evidence so that the FBI can just

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Speaker 4: kind of tie this up in a bow and move on.

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Speaker 4: But Bannon had one, I think misinterpretation. One thing that

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Speaker 4: Bannon was saying was focusing on this the gun, and

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Speaker 4: so Bannon was saying, you're worried about how your parents

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Speaker 4: are going to react to the gun showing on Grandpa's

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Speaker 4: gun being gone. I think they're going to care more

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Speaker 4: about the fact that you just allegedly killed somebody in

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Speaker 4: cold blood.

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Speaker 3: That's a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 4: The reason that Tyler is concerned about his parents not

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Speaker 4: having an explanation for where the gun is is that

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Speaker 4: he can't explain where the gun is and it ties

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Speaker 4: him to the killing.

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Speaker 3: He's in his mind.

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Speaker 4: He's still trying to get away with it.

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Speaker 3: It's also so.

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Speaker 4: But I think people also, yes, like it doesn't read

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Speaker 4: like a typical gen Z to exchange. Yeah, look at

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Speaker 4: his ACT scores. This is not a typical gen Z kid.

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Speaker 4: He's like ninety ninth percentile in the acts after going

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Speaker 4: to I think a Utah Southern Utah public school. Like

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Speaker 4: that is a different mind than the average gen Z person.

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Speaker 4: So you have to think about that when you're analyzing

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Speaker 4: whether or not this could be authentic or not.

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Speaker 5: It's a good point.

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Speaker 3: It's not.

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Speaker 4: It's not typical, but he's not. He's also not typical.

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Speaker 4: He also just assassinated somebody. It's not remotely typical.

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Speaker 5: Well that's another thing that Bannon brought Yeah. Good point

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Speaker 5: that Bannon brought up is he had time to write

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Speaker 5: all of this, and he said, I don't buy that

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Speaker 5: he had time to write. I think Bannon referred to

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Speaker 5: it as a sonnet.

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Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like he's sitting there looking at the

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Speaker 4: squad car, right, So he's got time.

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Speaker 5: And he's he's from this this document or from this exchange.

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Speaker 5: Even just sticking with it, he's talking about that he

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Speaker 5: hasn't seen anyone saying they found the rifle yet, which

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Speaker 5: meant he was following the news coverage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, exactly, which is on Twitter, and yeah, probably

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Speaker 4: TikTok or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And so there's also a part that is very gen Z,

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Speaker 3: which is.

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Speaker 4: Y'all can't stop interacting on social media and texting like

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Speaker 4: you guys just can't do it. Like so, he says

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Speaker 4: towards the end, I can't find the exact quot, but

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Speaker 4: he says, this was something I would I hoped I

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Speaker 4: would be like confessing to as an oh as a

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Speaker 4: as an old man you know, on my death better

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Speaker 4: or whatever. Guy you're texting in real time with another

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Speaker 4: person like that, that fundamental disconnect is does seem actually

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Speaker 4: very gen Z.

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Speaker 3: People like you're just taking They just.

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Speaker 4: Tell everybody everything, like you are telling someone that you

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Speaker 4: were hoping you would never tell anybody about this. You're

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Speaker 4: telling some right now, like Woodward and Bernstein, who.

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Speaker 3: Gen Z looked Watergate? Look it up.

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Speaker 4: There were the reporters. There were the Washington Post reporters

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Speaker 4: who broke Watergate. They had a source called deep Throat.

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Speaker 4: They took the identity of that source to the source's grave.

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Speaker 4: The deal was when the source died, they could talk

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Speaker 4: about it, and they did not tell their friends about

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Speaker 4: it at a party.

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Speaker 3: And this was the seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 4: And Bernstein in particular, was he partied with the Hollywood

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Speaker 4: crew to this day off of Watergate.

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Speaker 3: He's still alive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, he dined out on that forever. Woodward just

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Speaker 4: wrote books about it, Forever wrote books about Washington. But

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Speaker 4: they never told anybody and didn't tell anybody the name.

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Speaker 4: And then say this is the secret that I'm hoping

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Speaker 4: to take to my grive. So that part is so

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Speaker 4: gen z that I don't think some.

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Speaker 5: Bobo discord server from the Arlington Park Garage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, Woodward in the park and garage. I'm

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Speaker 4: in a parking garage meeting. You wi't believe number three

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Speaker 4: in the FBI don't tell anybody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't think there's any.

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Speaker 4: Gen X detective that could concoct that level of gen z.

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Speaker 5: That's nice, next level. Other things from the charging doc

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Speaker 5: Robinson's mother quote explained that over the last year or so,

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Speaker 5: Robinson had become more political and had started to lean

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Speaker 5: more to the left, becoming more pro gay and trans

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Speaker 5: writes oriented. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate,

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Speaker 5: a biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in

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Speaker 5: several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and

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Speaker 5: his father, with very different political views. In one conversation

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Speaker 5: before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Kirk would be

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Speaker 5: holding an event at UVU, which Robinson said was quote

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Speaker 5: a stupid venue. For the event, Robinson accused Kirk of

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Speaker 5: spreading hate, and then it goes on to say the

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Speaker 5: family saw the surveillance image of the suspected shooter and

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Speaker 5: the news that it looked like their son, confronted the son,

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Speaker 5: brought the son into a family friend who was a

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Speaker 5: deputy sheriff retired deputy sheriff, and they convinced Robinson to

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Speaker 5: go turn himself in. It looks like that the roommate

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Speaker 5: is cooperating Ryan. It seems like that's where they got

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Speaker 5: some of these messages. Now, the roommate received a text

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Speaker 5: message from Robinson on September tenth, according to this, which said,

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Speaker 5: drop what you were doing, look under my keyboard. The

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Speaker 5: roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote,

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Speaker 5: I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and

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Speaker 5: I'm going to take it. The police found a picture

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Speaker 5: of the note, apparently not the note itself, which might

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Speaker 5: ryan get to the reports that suggested something had been deleted,

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Speaker 5: and then that after the note is found, that's when

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Speaker 5: the exchange happens that we just read through.

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Speaker 4: I notice that they have a photo of that note. Yes,

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Speaker 4: not the notice, not the note itself. So where's the note?

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Speaker 4: They earn the note, throw the one away? Where's the note?

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Speaker 5: Well? Yeah, I mean, let's get to this because there

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Speaker 5: are I think a lot of remaining questions, including a

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Speaker 5: big one actually that Megan Kelly Race, which is how

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Speaker 5: did Tyler Robinson, who was planning this for apparently a

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Speaker 5: week according to this exchange, know that on the roof

401
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Speaker 5: there wouldn't be security. I'm sure you can go look

402
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Speaker 5: at other Kirk events and it's unusual for there to

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Speaker 5: be security in a roof of a campus event, grant

404
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Speaker 5: everyone that. But after Butler big speaking tour, how do

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Speaker 5: you know for sure there's not going to be anyone

406
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Speaker 5: up there? How do you know for sure that you're

407
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Speaker 5: going to have a clear line of sight to reach

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Speaker 5: Kirk from there that there aren't going to be you know,

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Speaker 5: banners that are put up or obstructions in one way,

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Speaker 5: they went.

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Speaker 3: Up the night before, like we don't know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah he may have. Yeah, absolutely possible.

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Speaker 4: So we could go and see if there's security and

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Speaker 4: if there is aboard the mission.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, entirely possible. Entirely possible. That's why you know,

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Speaker 5: normally you don't have a suspect like this alive, frankly,

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Speaker 5: and so I'm sure we'll learn a lot more about

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Speaker 5: Tyler Robinson's story on what happened.

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Speaker 4: Right, And also I think one thing that people should

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Speaker 4: take away from this to that to that point is

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Speaker 4: that you basically cannot get away with this in the

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Speaker 4: United States anymore.

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Speaker 5: Or could could Robinson have gotten away with it? And

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Speaker 5: if he hadn't been turned.

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Speaker 3: In, well you're going to get turned in.

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Speaker 4: Like so, the because the way the reason you can't

427
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Speaker 4: get away with this is mass mass surveillance, ring cameras,

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Speaker 4: dash cameras, security cameras, cameras, cameras, cameras absolutely everywhere. He

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Speaker 4: he very effectively, as the police said, walked with his

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Speaker 4: head down, a hat pulled down, sunglasses, changed clothes.

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Speaker 3: He did everything that he could except.

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Speaker 4: He probably should have put on a COVID mask and

433
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Speaker 4: maybe that would have helped, like, you know, mask up

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Speaker 4: now maybe, Utah, it's not.

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Speaker 5: Cool to like mask up, so right, it might have

436
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Speaker 5: looked suspicious, right.

437
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Speaker 3: But you're gonna have some people masking anyway.

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Speaker 8: Uh.

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00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 4: Not that I'm giving advice here because I want people

440
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 4: to get caught doing this. Yes, actually, yes, so he

441
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 4: did basically everything he could and they still got a

442
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 4: clear picture of him. And yes, Okay, let's imagine a

443
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 4: world where your parents don't.

444
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: Turn you in.

445
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 4: In most cases, your parents are turning you in for this.

446
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 5: I'm sorry.

447
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 4: If your parents don't turn you in, your cousin is

448
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 4: going to turn you in. Your uncle is going to

449
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 4: turn you in. Your aunt is going to turn you in.

450
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 4: The person in your chemistry class is going to turn

451
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 4: you in. In this world, hundreds of people know what we

452
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 4: look like, and somebody's going to notice. Somebody's going to

453
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 4: be not okay with you doing what you did.

454
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: Some are going to be okay with it.

455
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 4: Some will love you and won't turn you in. Some

456
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 4: are going to turn you in. So that's why I'm saying, like,

457
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 4: even if you get.

458
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 3: Away at the scene in an era of mass surveillance

459
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 3: and plus.

460
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 5: Well, that's an interesting part of the charging document. It

461
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 5: talks about how they have surveillance footage of him going

462
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 5: up to the roof and leaving the roof, but not

463
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 5: of the shot happening. It doesn't mention that, of course,

464
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 5: but it mentions. It talks about how you have surveillance

465
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 5: video of him.

466
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 3: Going up to the roof right there in this world that.

467
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 5: Are not well, I also find that. But that's what

468
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 5: I thought to your point, I think that's quite interesting

469
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 5: because there.

470
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: Could get away with this and a state level assassin

471
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: like who is able to understand where all the cameras

472
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 4: are and you've got you know, Ocean's eleven style or

473
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 4: like you know that, maybe then you can get away

474
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 4: with that type of assassination and you exfiltrate back to

475
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 4: your country immediately and you're wearing a ski mask or

476
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 4: something like that like professional assassins, okay, but like a

477
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 4: regular person whose face is going to be out there

478
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 4: and they're not going anywhere, like, you can't get.

479
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: Away with it. So another odd which is to me a.

480
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 4: Good thing, so that seople are going to have to

481
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 4: like it goes back to the school shooter mindset like

482
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: that you're going in and you're not coming back out.

483
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 5: Right, which is again something different from this case, especially

484
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 5: when you have someone saying that they hope to take

485
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 5: the secret to their grave, but they.

486
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 3: Had also to somebody.

487
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 5: Right and posted about it in the discord one of

488
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 5: the discord services. Well, we'll get into that with Ken,

489
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 5: but let's go ahead and bring this other element of

490
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 5: the story in. This is something that people thought was

491
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 5: very weird at first. This is a three George Zin.

492
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 5: Do you remember the name George Zin from the frenzy

493
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 5: last week? This is, according to TMC, the mad Yeah,

494
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 5: he claimed he did it. The man accused of obstructing

495
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 5: the Charlie Kirk murder probe is even in more hot water.

496
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 5: He's now been charged with possessing child porn. George Zin,

497
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 5: who falsely told police he shot Kirk moments after the attack,

498
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 5: was charged with obstruction of justice following the death of

499
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk quote Now Zen has been charged with four

500
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 5: counts of sexual exploitation of a minora after FBI agents

501
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 5: examined his phone and found images of underage girls dressed

502
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 5: only in their underwear. According to court documents, filed Tuesday

503
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 5: by Utah prosecutors. The docs say Zin admitted to the

504
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 5: Feds he gets quote sexually aroused by children. And you

505
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 5: will remember, of course, he said after the shooting he

506
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 5: basically was saying that he did it right Ryan, and

507
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 5: then at one point I think he said he did

508
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 5: it so he did that so that the shooter can

509
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 5: get away. This is the story from George Soon.

510
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: This, this whole storyline just feels designed to get people

511
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 4: to believe that the official story is fogus right right,

512
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 4: Like you could, you could not stitch up a side

513
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 4: narrative less compelling or more compelling, depending on your perspective here,

514
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: because if people don't know, this whole CSAA thing is

515
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 4: a it's almost a meme at this point that like,

516
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 4: if you are inconvenient to the government, look out you're

517
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: gonna find you're gonna wind up with something on your

518
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 4: on your computer. So to see that used here, now,

519
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 4: I have no reason to think that like this guy's

520
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 4: apparently a known figure around town, one of those kind

521
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 4: of many such cases weirdos gadfly real gadflies around town.

522
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 4: All the police like kind of knew his name and

523
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 4: does a weirdo like that, also have C. S A

524
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 4: on his phone. I have no problem believing that.

525
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 5: Yep.

526
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 4: On the other hand, this is this is becoming a

527
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: thing and like, FBI, careful how many times you use

528
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 4: that bullet?

529
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 5: I guess he said he wanted to cause a distraction

530
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 5: for the actual gunman, but also at one point he

531
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 5: said he quote wanted to be a martyr for the

532
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 5: person who was shot. Another quote, this is from.

533
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: The just all of a sudden, he comes up with

534
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: this plan.

535
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 5: It's it's weird, the DA tells the Salt Lake Tribune.

536
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 5: Almost every political event you can think of, there was

537
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: always George somewhere in the back guy listening. So he

538
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 5: was like part of the local we have.

539
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 3: We have those here in DC.

540
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 5: We have more.

541
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: Yes, so some of their names.

542
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 5: That's that's another odd wrinkle in all of this. We

543
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 5: learned a lot more yesterday.

544
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 4: Factly, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them had

545
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: shot sex abuse.

546
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 5: I would be surprised if some of them didn't, right, Yes.

547
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: So that's so that's the anti conspiracy side, Like these people,

548
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 4: these weirdos exist.

549
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 5: That's true, Yes, and yeah, absolutely take it.

550
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 3: Take it from us, who do these public events.

551
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 5: Great point, Yes, great point, and get the weirdo messages

552
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 5: and all of that stuff. Yes, we're probably more familiar

553
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 5: than most with this type. But so this is all

554
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 5: of the new details that we learned yesterday from the

555
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 5: charging document. Now, the conversation about our national politics also

556
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 5: took another kind of It had another ugly wrinkle yesterday,

557
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 5: not a surprising one, but an ugly one related to

558
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 5: more comments from Ezra Cline actually reflecting on the reaction

559
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 5: that he got to his first reaction in the wake

560
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 5: of Charlie Kirk's assassination. So here's a little bit.

561
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: Let's do them in a different order, because put up

562
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: a five.

563
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because so this was the piece that probably everybody

564
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 4: is in the country has seen at this point is

565
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: headline Charlie Kirk was practicing politics the right way. He

566
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 4: gets enormous amount of blowback for this piece from obviously

567
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 4: from the center left and the left.

568
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 5: Which is really just saying Charlie Kirk was inviting de

569
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 5: baiton conversation right, which Ezra client says, don't agree with

570
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 5: the guy says things that I find very very wrong.

571
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 5: But the baseline foundational reality is that he was inviting

572
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 5: de baiton conversation right hated.

573
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 4: Love it was it was nonviolent ye speech, yep, so here.

574
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 4: So then he he then had already interviewed Ben Shapiro

575
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: because Ben Shpiro's on a book tour, and so that

576
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 4: interview was in the can before Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

577
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: So he published that interview but also added a kind

578
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 4: of preamble response slash rebuttal to criticism he got for

579
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: the original piece.

580
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: We can played just a little taste of that here

581
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: A four.

582
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 10: My reaction, honestly is that it is too little to

583
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 10: just say we oppose political violence. In ways that surprised me,

584
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 10: given what I thought of Kirk's project. I wasn't am

585
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 10: grieving for Kirk himself, not because I knew him. I didn't,

586
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 10: not because he was a saint. He wasn't, not because

587
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 10: I agreed with him. No, most of what he poured

588
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 10: himself to trying to achieve, I pour myself into trying

589
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 10: to prevent.

590
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 8: But I find myself.

591
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 10: Grieving for him because I recognize some commonality with him.

592
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 10: He was murdered for participating in our politics. Somewhere beyond

593
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 10: how much divided us, there was something that bonded us

594
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 10: to effort to change this country in ways that we

595
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 10: think are good.

596
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 8: I believe this so strongly.

597
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 10: That we have to be able to see that the

598
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 10: bullet that torn to him was an act of violence

599
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 10: against us all.

600
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: I actually believe that.

601
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 10: I don't know how to express this thought exactly the

602
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 10: nature of our politics right now. The truth of it

603
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 10: is that it is ferocious that our visions of what

604
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 10: is good, our visions just of what is decent, have diverged.

605
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 10: The stakes of our politics right now are frightening to me.

606
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 10: The consequences for people are very real. We see each

607
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 10: other as threats, and to some degree we are right,

608
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 10: and it is somehow also true. It is true at

609
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 10: the same time that we will be immeasurably worse off.

610
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 10: If that is all we are to each other. We

611
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 10: are going to have to live here with each other.

612
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 10: There will be no fever that breaks, there will be

613
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 10: no permanent victory that routes or quiets those who disagree

614
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 10: with us.

615
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 4: So for this what I would find to be rather

616
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: uncontroversial assertion. Yeah, like, we're not going to fight our

617
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 4: way out of it. We're not going to shoot our

618
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 4: way out of this. We all live in the same country.

619
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 4: We're going to have to deal with this either violently

620
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 4: or non violently, and he was dealing with it non violently,

621
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: and that's the right way to deal with it. He's

622
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: got an enormous amount of blowback. I've gotten my own

623
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 4: for just agreeing with him.

624
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 5: Yes, I was looking at your feed and couldn't.

625
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: Be it's ugly. It's ugly.

626
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 4: And so the counter argument that you can probably read

627
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: and comment section to this video right now is he

628
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 4: was not doing politics the right way. The most to me,

629
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: the best point would be whatever his connect like denying

630
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 4: the election or whatever January sixth, because if you can

631
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: show that he was actually trying to overturn an election, okay,

632
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 4: that's not the right way of doing things.

633
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: I don't remember him being.

634
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 4: Involved with January sixth, that he I think some TPUSA buses.

635
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 5: Came, Yeah, they sent busses for the big Trump speech

636
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 5: on the ellipse that.

637
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: But the Trump speech was not like guaranteed to lead

638
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: to an insurrection.

639
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 5: No, I mean again, Trump said peacefully march on the capital.

640
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 5: Whatever you think about I have all many, many problems

641
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 5: with how Trump handled that, but exactly it wasn't like

642
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 5: a conspiracy plot by turning point.

643
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 4: I don't think he was pro insurrection, but whatever, if

644
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 4: you say he was, then okay, fine, that's that's that

645
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: is I will acknowledge that is absolutely not the right

646
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 4: way to do politics. To sack the capital because you

647
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 4: don't like the election. That's not I don't associate him

648
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 4: with that. Other people have said, well, he says things

649
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 4: I think are racist. He says things that are sexist,

650
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 4: He says things are hateful towards LGBT people. He he

651
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: like said my friend Mehdi Hasten should be deported. Not

652
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 4: okay with that, but it's but it's speech like that.

653
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: That is all within speech.

654
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 5: Uh.

655
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: And so that that that is what Ezra means by

656
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 4: practice saying politics the right way. It does not mean

657
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 4: that he has he has good politics, or the right politics,

658
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 4: or the correct politics, or shares your politics.

659
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: That would be that would be a different thing.

660
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 5: There's a willful mask reading of it. I think for

661
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 5: the sake of Catharsis.

662
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 4: Azer probably would have phrased it slightly differently, just but

663
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 4: maybe not like I don't know, you know, you.

664
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 5: Should stand by one hundred percent because what he was

665
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 5: talking about is in the most basic sense, which is

666
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 5: that he was on a college campus sending people. This

667
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 5: is one of the coolest things that Charlie Kirk is,

668
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 5: sending people who disagreed with him to the front of

669
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 5: the line and talking, talking, And I actually think there

670
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 5: are all kinds of criticisms that can be made about

671
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 5: doing politics for the algorithm and doing politics for TikTok

672
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 5: and doing like that does all apply, but that's not

673
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 5: what has their clients talking about. He's talking about the

674
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 5: most basic skeletal sense of what Charlie Kirk was known for,

675
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 5: which was going to college campuses and debating people and

676
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 5: eagerly debating people and doing it with speech. Speech can

677
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 5: have violent implications and consequences, but it is speech and

678
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 5: it is not violence in and of itself. And that

679
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 5: is I think an argument that caught fire. Particularly. It

680
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 5: used to be sort of relegated to the fringes faculty

681
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 5: lounges talking about FUCOU and getting into what actually is

682
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 5: like it was very abstract philosophical discussions about what actually

683
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 5: is speech and violence and what is the line all

684
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 5: of that, and then it migrated into this very literal

685
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 5: belief among men. I've been accused of it. I don't know,

686
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 5: like if you ever Ryan, but when I was in college,

687
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 5: I was accused of committing acts of violence with my speech.

688
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 5: It's it's fucked up.

689
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's completely fucked up sometimes.

690
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 4: And you know at his Southern Utah event where he

691
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: was killed, like, he started the event by saying, all right,

692
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 4: give me the best libs.

693
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: Utah has to offer best libs. Give me the best libs.

694
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 8: Yeap.

695
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: And so then another counter argument as well, he's there

696
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 4: in bad faith. M Well, yeah, he's he's a right

697
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 4: wing person, like he's not, yes and yes and people.

698
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 4: Another argument is that he has these rhetorical tricks that

699
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: he uses on college students and where he kind of

700
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 4: out matches them.

701
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 5: Okay, that's what debate and argument. Meddi wrote a book

702
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 5: about that rhetorical tricks.

703
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 4: Right, So if Mehdi went to a college campus and like,

704
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 4: and he would absolutely make mince meat of anybody who

705
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 4: came before him, including me, Is that doing it the

706
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: wrong way because you know he's using rhetorical tricks. No,

707
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 4: it's still debate, it's still speech. You don't have to

708
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 4: like it. Yeah, doesn't mean you agree with it, but

709
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 4: it is it is not violent, and he wasn't even

710
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 4: part of the government, because you could you could also say, oh, right, well,

711
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 4: this government is like fueling a genocide and it is

712
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 4: Ice is out killing people, chaining them. They're awful, they're violent.

713
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: He's not actually part of the government. He's a supporter

714
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: of the government. So were one hundred plus million people

715
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 4: in this country kill all of them? And that So

716
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 4: that gets to Ezra's other point. Let's say you disagree

717
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 4: with Ezerap and you actually think he's not practicing politics

718
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 4: the right way.

719
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: What is the right way?

720
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 5: Right? It is a violence?

721
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: What's left?

722
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's there's violence and non violence. There's not a

723
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 5: middle ground.

724
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: And you can, like, so you will debate or not debate,

725
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 4: like so he can can you debate on college campus

726
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 4: or not? Okay, college campuses they're off limits because the

727
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 4: kids are too young, So then he he can only.

728
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: Debate older people.

729
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 4: Like It's it becomes incoherent at some point pretty quickly,

730
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 4: and it becomes just a way I feel like two

731
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 4: show what tribe you're in.

732
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 5: Yes, it's exactly that.

733
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 3: It feels like, which is cowardly.

734
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 5: What Ezra said is deeply unfashionable.

735
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 3: It's like the fashionable is what's disturbing.

736
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 5: Right, It is like the intellectual equivalent of like crocs

737
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 5: was him saying the Kumbaya stuff is true and accurate,

738
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 5: and that is Yeah, it's unfashionable because it's not edgy.

739
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 5: It's not it's not a I was thinking about this

740
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 5: this morning. It's not a rejection of the establishment. And

741
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 5: you'd be hard pressed to find another show of people

742
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 5: that are like. Our consensus across Crystal Sager, you and

743
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 5: me is that the establishment is broken and corrupt, and

744
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 5: that's a problem. And so I think people who find

745
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 5: ourselves find themselves in our milieu. The fashion is to

746
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: reflexively disagree with the establishment at every turn because the

747
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 5: establishment is wrong. We all agree with the establishment is wrong. Well,

748
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 5: in this case, I actually agree with the sort of

749
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 5: like mainstream establishment about where our politics are going. And

750
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 5: that's not fashionable. And it's a very cathartic reflex to

751
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 5: want to disagree with the people who are saying anything

752
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 5: nice about Charlie Kirk who was friends with a president

753
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 5: in power, a president abusing power. And so it's easy

754
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 5: to just have that knee jerk reaction to find your

755
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 5: catharsis in it because there's something that's much more fashionable

756
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 5: about disagreeing with the establishment and the elites. And in

757
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 5: this case, I actually think, you know, there's the elites

758
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: have a point.

759
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 4: And yeah, the other argument that people made was okay, fine, Ezra,

760
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 4: but you shouldn't lionize Charlie Kirk.

761
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: Yes.

762
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 4: Yes, And I'd have two responses. That one is that

763
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 4: I don't think he was lionizing Charlie Hurle. He's saying,

764
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 4: I disagree with everything. I spent my life trying to

765
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 4: block the things he wants to achieve. But what he

766
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 4: was admiring objectively was the fact that he'd built this

767
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 4: mass organization around the country, that he'd increased turnout among

768
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 4: young people and had done that non violently and had

769
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 4: elected a president. Just objectively, he's saying, like, I would

770
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: have liked the left to have built that instead, And

771
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 4: so saying that you built power is not lionizing somebody.

772
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 4: It is stating an objective fact.

773
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 3: And and then.

774
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 4: Like I also would even go further, and I had

775
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 4: some people saying, you know, why aren't you pointing out

776
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 4: these racist things he said, whatever, Like, because I think

777
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 4: in the moment after he's killed, you if you say,

778
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 4: I don't think he should be killed, but here's some

779
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 4: bad things that I disagree with him over. You are

780
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 4: a backdoor implicitly justifying to some people that the killing

781
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 4: may have been okay.

782
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: And that's why you have to stop doing that. Now.

783
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 4: Everybody remembers this on the left when it aim to

784
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 4: cost some solomony. I remember the assassination of Costam Solomony.

785
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 5: Such a jump. But yes, I know where you're going with.

786
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk was here because he would I think, appreciate

787
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 4: this analogy.

788
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that he has cost some solomoney, No

789
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 3: you are not. But so right.

790
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 4: Leading into the Iowa Caucuses, Trump assassinated Costom Solomony.

791
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: Again, this is a Trump move. Trump set up a

792
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 3: peace deal.

793
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: He asked a Raq to broker from peace talks with

794
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 4: Iran and the IRGC, which brought Costom Solomony, who was

795
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 4: the head of the IRGC the Irani revolution in Guardcore,

796
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 4: brought him to Bagdad. He flies into the civilian airport

797
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 4: of Baghdad. He's in a car with his aids and

798
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 4: we drone strike him as he's on the way to this.

799
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 4: These like peace talks sound familiar. We did it to

800
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 4: Iran several years later. We just did it to a

801
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 4: Moas a couple of weeks ago. It's the most cowardly

802
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 4: thing and counterproductive thing you can do. You put out

803
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 4: a peace deal and then your adversaries gather to consider

804
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 4: this peace deal, and then you kill them. Cowardly, disgusting.

805
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: And so every Democrat put out a statement saying, I

806
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 4: deplore Cosm Solemoni's life and work. He's responsible for the

807
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 4: killing of thousands of Americans, probably American troops in the

808
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 4: Iraq War in the two thousands, as well as kind

809
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: of the a leading figure of building up the.

810
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 3: Axis of resistance.

811
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 4: And so every single Democrat said, I disagree with him,

812
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 4: hate who he is. However, Trump should not have done this,

813
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 4: you know, cold, this extra legal assassination, except Bernie Sanders.

814
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders statement was clear and unequivocal.

815
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 4: You do not assassinate figures like this like this is

816
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 4: not how we do things in the world, And you

817
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 4: say your critique of the person for later, because.

818
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 5: It's the point.

819
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 4: The critique then justifies the killing in a way. And

820
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 4: everyone on the left understood that in the moment, and

821
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 4: everyone jumped on Elizabeth Warren and all the other Democrats

822
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 4: who led with a mealy mouthed I hate what this

823
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 4: guy stands for. Which, however, so the point is, if

824
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 4: you're against the killing, you just say you're against the killing,

825
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: the killing was wrong, and then you move on.

826
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 5: And I think the reason is, I mean, they're a

827
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 5: bunch of reasons, but the one that stands out to

828
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 5: me is that the killing is the much, much, much

829
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 5: more important question in that moment than anything else. Right,

830
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 5: it's black killed.

831
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 4: Exactly because it's totally uninteresting that an American politician doesn't

832
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 4: agree with an IRGC commander's right way that he carries

833
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 4: out the killing of US soldiers. Obviously you don't agree

834
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 4: with that, And obviously if you're on the left, you don't.

835
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: Agree with Charlie Kirk, who's on the right, right you

836
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 3: need to say that right? Who doesn't know that right?

837
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 5: Right? So no, it doesn't give you any more credibility

838
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 5: to condemn his murder while saying yeah, I just wanted

839
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 5: to highlight what I thought was the most important point

840
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 5: that as are made, which is he said quote. Much

841
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 5: of what I would describe as Kirk's worst moments were

842
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 5: standard fare maga republicanism, and that is a hugely critical,

843
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 5: I think description from his perspective.

844
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 4: Right, and he says the chief proponent of which is

845
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 4: the President of the United States. Yeah, you can't kill

846
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 4: everybody who agrees with the president.

847
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 5: And again like this is Donald Trump won the popular vote.

848
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 5: This time, Charlie Kirk was winning hearts and minds on

849
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 5: social media, Like, there are a lot, a lot, a

850
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 5: lot of people who followed that guy. He had a

851
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 5: lot of fans. Donald Trump has a lot of fans.

852
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 5: There are a lot of people who believe what Charlie

853
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 5: Kirk and Donald Trump believe. And some of them, by

854
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 5: the way, Sager and I believe what some of what

855
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 5: Donald Trump and Charlie Kirk believe. And it is just

856
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 5: the idea that you are we've inflated. And Ryan, you

857
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: wrote a fantastic piece about this. I always talked about

858
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 5: but elephant in the zoom, about the over inflation of

859
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 5: definitions that the left has engaged in. And I'm not

860
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 5: again saying the right doesn't do it too. And I

861
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 5: shouldn't even be doing this throat clearing again because a

862
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 5: conservative was just shot in cold blood on a college campus.

863
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 5: But that's A real problem I think that the left

864
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 5: has had over the last ten years is over inflating

865
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 5: some of these definitions racism, bigotry, sexism, misogyny. Again, there

866
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 5: are real, practical, literal definitions of some of those terms

867
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 5: that can be applied to people on the right, Like

868
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 5: I'll debate whether I'm a sexist racist, all damn fine,

869
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 5: we'll do it. But to overinflate those definitions impunes people

870
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 5: in mass in ways that are intentional. I think of

871
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 5: the left, they wouldn't say, yes, I do agree that

872
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 5: every person who voted for Donald Trump is a racist

873
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 5: in some respect. That's that's the argument, but it's actually

874
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 5: it's literally not true. Like Charlie Kirk did not believe

875
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 5: that people were inferior because of their race. He did

876
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 5: not believe that. His quotes in context did not say that,

877
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 5: and he didn't live his life that way. He worshiped

878
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 5: with people of all faith, of all stripes and all

879
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 5: different backgrounds. He had turning point outreach to young black

880
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 5: conservatives and young Black Americans. He was like nothing but

881
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 5: compassionate towards gay conservatives when and actually gay liberals when

882
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 5: he was in conversation with them. So disagree with how

883
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 5: he handles those things, sure, but to impugne him and

884
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 5: say that he thinks people are are lesser than in

885
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 5: like actual like they're they're worth as human beings, that's

886
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 5: a different question than what you think the policy implications

887
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 5: of his beliefs are. And that's what I think gets

888
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 5: really really dangerous.

889
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 4: And one of the quotes that I see going around

890
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: all the time is where he said something like, if

891
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 4: I see a black pilot, I'm going to wonder if

892
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 4: they're worse. Yes, And I understand why everyone on the

893
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 4: left sees that as a completely racist things to say.

894
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 4: You see a black person and your mind goes inferior

895
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 4: the point that he was trying to make.

896
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 3: I'm not defending him here, but the point he was trying.

897
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 4: To make was because of the existence of in their

898
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 4: minds quotas. I don't think there are quotas, but let's

899
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 4: say there were. Quote in his mind, he thinks there

900
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 4: are quotas where affirmative action requires an airline to hire

901
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 4: X number of black candidates, whether or not they have

902
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 4: X number of black qualified candidates.

903
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:44,959
Speaker 3: That's in his mind.

904
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,919
Speaker 4: So his mind then says, oh, this person was hired

905
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 4: to fill this quota. So what he's saying is a

906
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 4: furnative action actually fuels racism rather than redresses racism.

907
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: So he agree to disagree with that.

908
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 4: Like that's the point he's making there, right, which is

909
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 4: a different point than the one that I think people

910
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 4: were jumping on the fort and with you know, he

911
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 4: he was, you know, coming after Shil Jackson, Lea Michelle

912
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 4: Obama saying that they don't have the brain power and

913
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: Katanji Brown Jackson, they don't have the brain power that

914
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 4: they needed affirmative action. Like I think that's just objectively ridiculous.

915
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 3: Like I think they.

916
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 4: Obviously are extremely smart women. But what he was saying

917
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 4: is that they set they that they said that they

918
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 4: benefited from affirmative action. Right, So you then, well, if

919
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 4: you're saying that, what you're acknowledging it, so you know,

920
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 4: it's getting down in the weeds of of and and

921
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 4: a lot of his following does have bias against black people,

922
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 4: like I think significant number.

923
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 3: So I like, I get where where people are coming from.

924
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 4: But that that's the conversation that was going on.

925
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was an argument that you get from Thomas Soulil.

926
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 5: Clarence comments Walter Williams about the effects of a firm redactor.

927
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 8: WI.

928
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 5: You don't have to go into any more of that.

929
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: But as Tom has hated more than anybody, right And.

930
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 5: Okay, so we've been talking about this for like fifty

931
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 5: minutes now, and I just want to say this because

932
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 5: these conversations are so fraught and the experience I don't

933
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 5: know what you writ in of the last week has

934
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 5: been incredibly depressing. The way everyone is racing to get

935
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 5: clips or get like just right.

936
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: We haven't even gotten into I Crystal Sagata, but the

937
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 4: whole right wing organizing safe spaces and getting into cancel culture.

938
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 5: And yeah, there's that too. There's just an explosion of

939
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 5: cancel culture all around. And it's because everybody is on

940
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 5: edge and everybody's trying to cope with this in different ways,

941
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 5: many of which I think are algorithmically programmed to be

942
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 5: incredibly ugly because actually, you don't have to say things.

943
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 5: You literally just don't have to say things. But when

944
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 5: the seduction of the algorithm is right in front of you,

945
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 5: promising those dopamine hits for likes and retweets, people air

946
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 5: on the side of posting. Unfortunately, let's get to Tucker

947
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 5: Carlson Ryan who did a stream just last night with

948
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 5: some other prominent friends of Charlie Kirk's, remembering Charlie Kirk

949
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 5: and of course then getting into some of the controversial

950
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 5: questions about whether or not Kirk was moving on the

951
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 5: question of foreign policy towards Israel in the days and

952
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 5: weeks before his death. So let's roll this video of

953
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 5: Tucker Carlson asex, I.

954
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 6: Don't think I've ever seen anything lower than his attempt

955
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 6: to hijack Charlie's memory and use it for his own

956
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 6: political ends, particularly because what he said was completely untrue.

957
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 6: Charlie didn't hate Jews. He loved Jews. He had tons

958
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 6: of friends were Jews. He loved the state of Israel,

959
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 6: loved going there. He did not like bb netya Who.

960
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 6: And he said to me many times, and he said

961
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 6: to people around him many times, he felt that bb

962
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 6: netnya Who was a very destructive force. He was appalled

963
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 6: by what was happening in Gaza. He was above all

964
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 6: resentful that he believed Netna Who was using the United

965
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 6: States to prosecute his wars for the benefit of his country,

966
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 6: and that it was shameful and embarrassing and bad for

967
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 6: the United States, and he resented it.

968
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 5: So if you're not like super hyper online, you may

969
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 5: have missed some of the context about that Akman saga.

970
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 5: But this is becoming a really significant subplot in the

971
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 5: broader conversation about what happened to Charlie Kirk. Bill Ackman

972
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 5: and others allegedly convened what's now being built a sort

973
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 5: of an intervention for Charlie Kirk in the Hamptons in

974
00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 5: early August, and Akman and others who were there have

975
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 5: rejected the characterization of it as an intervention. It was

976
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 5: sort of built as an influencer summit for people on

977
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 5: the right, and apparently they talked about Israel as part

978
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 5: of their conversations in the Hamptons. But Tucker Carlson, Matt Gates,

979
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 5: Candae Owens, and others last night, Yeah, are coming out

980
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 5: and saying Charlie did express to them he was privately,

981
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 5: and he talked about this publicly too, so it's not

982
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 5: exactly surprising, but privately had expressed he was under pretty

983
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 5: significant pressure from the pro Israel side to not give

984
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 5: a platform to people like Dave Smith who were critical

985
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 5: of Israel. In fact, Actually, Charlie had Staggerron people probably remember,

986
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 5: I believe it was back in July, late July, so

987
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 5: before this influencer summit to talk about Epstein documents and

988
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 5: potential Israel connection. It's Epstein documents and that really was upsetting.

989
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 3: After Cyrar was on, Tucker is more even more infuriating.

990
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 4: Yes, right to the acmens right, and had acmen at

991
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 4: his conference.

992
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 3: I mean it had Tucker at his conference trashing acmen.

993
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 5: You pointed out as we were prepping in this segment,

994
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 5: an interesting bit of the timeline.

995
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

996
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 4: So if you want to actually try to get a

997
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 4: sense of what because what went down at this meeting,

998
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 4: slash intervention, whatever you want to call it, understand this.

999
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: The dates are August fourth and August fifth, and it

1000
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 3: was held in the Hamptons.

1001
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 4: If you watch this show, you have probably seen the

1002
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 4: viral clip of Charlie Kirk on Megan Kelly's program really

1003
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 4: lashing out at people who are coming after him, saying,

1004
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 4: stop telling me what I can say and I can't

1005
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 4: say about my own government. Who do you think you are?

1006
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 4: How dare you attack my moral character? You've seen this

1007
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 4: clip probably If you haven't, you can go find it.

1008
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 4: You can look up when that appearance was. That was

1009
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 4: August sixth, and he is heated in that clip.

1010
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 3: He has worked up.

1011
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 4: So according to Acman and Seth Dylan and others who

1012
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 4: were Seth Dylan and also acknowledged that he was there

1013
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 4: and invited by Kirk.

1014
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 3: It was cordial.

1015
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 4: There was just some chit chat, some good food and

1016
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 4: some panels and everything was fine. According to Kirk's friends,

1017
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 4: he felt he felt intimidated, and he felt like he

1018
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 4: was being pushed in an aggressive posture with money being

1019
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 4: used as the pressure. So those are the two different

1020
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 4: claims about this event that was held on the fourth

1021
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 4: and the fifth. Go and rewatch his appearance on Megan

1022
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 4: Kelly on the sixth. Yeah, take his temperature and you

1023
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 4: ask me if that is a guy who just came

1024
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 4: out of a cordial session where they just you know,

1025
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 4: shared some blueberry muffin tops and enjoyed you know, the

1026
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 4: Bridgeport views.

1027
00:54:54,800 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 5: Well, and there's also the possibility that conversations happened on

1028
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 5: the sidelines of course, right that other people something off.

1029
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, something made him very angry right before that

1030
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 4: Megan Kelly appearance.

1031
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 5: Well, and I think you know, he'd been getting this

1032
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 5: for months and same with a lot of people for

1033
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 5: months and months and months, and some of the reporting

1034
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 5: is now that actually you can see this. He convened

1035
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 5: a focus group of young conservatives on Israel, and one

1036
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 5: of those things that people were saying more and more

1037
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 5: that people are saying he was privately expressing, is that

1038
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 5: what was really driving some of the upset on the

1039
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 5: young right is just being told what they can and

1040
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 5: cannot say. It wasn't necessarily about policy so much as

1041
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 5: it was about speech and so much as it was

1042
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 5: about like offering any criticism. And that's what was really

1043
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 5: sort of driving him to be more public about some

1044
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 5: of this.

1045
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean September two, What was September second?

1046
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: The focus group?

1047
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 5: Oh right, I think he did one earlier in the

1048
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 5: summer too, But yeah, that's that was another thing that

1049
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 5: I've been happy actually after Uh yeah, I had intended

1050
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 5: to send him a note and I never did it,

1051
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 5: to just thank him for being honest and standing up

1052
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 5: back then.

1053
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 3: But it's a reminder you got to send those messages.

1054
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's yep, you do. But and also for his

1055
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 5: conversation with Sager, which was was very well done and

1056
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 5: very fair, and I think people underestimate how hard that

1057
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 5: is to do, just like people underestimate people on the

1058
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 5: left underestimate how hard it is for you and Crystal

1059
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 5: to sit next to Sager and me sometimes, and people

1060
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 5: on the right underestimate how hard it is, like how

1061
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 5: much backlash we get, you know what I mean. Like,

1062
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 5: but it's it's just people underestimate what goes on behind

1063
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 5: the scenes, and like the trash that you get for

1064
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 5: just sitting next to someone who disagrees with you and

1065
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 5: who your friends disagree with. It's constant and I can't imagine,

1066
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 5: especially for somebody like Charlie Kirk. Could I've been going

1067
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 5: back to back and forth to Israel, you know, probably,

1068
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 5: but probably like once a year at least over the

1069
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 5: last ten years. I just you know, it's it's hard.

1070
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like this focus group was late July.

1071
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 5: Late July. Yeah, so the timeline there is quite interesting

1072
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 5: in terms.

1073
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 3: Of about a week. It was about a week before

1074
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: this Hampton's Right event.

1075
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 5: And yeah, who knows what was happening on the sidelines

1076
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 5: of that. You know, people can say we didn't see

1077
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 5: any pressure or whatever, but you know, there could have

1078
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 5: been different conversations that that happened, certainly, and we're going

1079
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 5: to learn more about them. But man, it is.

1080
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 4: Watch what he is saying about net Yaho, by the way,

1081
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 4: sot Yah, who has done multiple things. One is that

1082
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: net Yaho went on air and read a letter that

1083
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 4: Kirk wrote to him in May, and he read a

1084
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 4: line of it that says, I love visiting Israel.

1085
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 3: I love Israel, and then he stops right there, stops.

1086
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 4: So Candeze said, release the whole letter, because I know

1087
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 4: that that letter was actually a lot of criticism of you.

1088
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 4: And that makes sense, like that's the kind of line

1089
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 4: that you start with, Hey, I love you, You're my good friend,

1090
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 4: always supported you. But and everything that comes after the

1091
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 4: butt is what's important. That was frustrating to Candaezon's Tucker

1092
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 4: and others, and also Netyahu went on air and said,

1093
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 4: I recently spoke with him, and apparently it was at

1094
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 4: this intervention, like he called into this thing. I recently

1095
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 4: spoke with Charlie Kirk and I invited him to come

1096
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 4: visit Israel. And now that visit won't happen. And if

1097
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 4: you notice a phrasing of that, it leaves out what

1098
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 4: Kirk's friends say, which is that Kirk told him no,

1099
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 4: that he felt like it was an attempt to kind

1100
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 4: of bully him and pressure him, and he.

1101
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 3: Said no, So, yes, that trip will not happen.

1102
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 4: Right, he's been assassinated. But you're leaving out a key detail. Yeah,

1103
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 4: very trying to drape yourself in him.

1104
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very, very, very gross, and it's going to

1105
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 5: be used. I mean, this is all going to be

1106
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 5: used as a football. And the truth, probably, by the way,

1107
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 5: is that if we're trying to read between the lines

1108
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 5: and see what Charlie may or may not have said

1109
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 5: about Candice Owns or may or may not have said

1110
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 5: about Israel, the truth is probably that people who are

1111
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 5: reflecting on their conversations are I mean, like he was

1112
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 5: trying to get along with different people in different conversations.

1113
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 5: And that's also a very difficult thing to do. If

1114
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 5: you maybe he did disagree bitterly with Candie Owns on

1115
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 5: certain things, and I'm sure that's also the case when

1116
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 5: his other friends confront him about another friend's politics that

1117
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 5: they disagree with bitterly, He's probably going to say, yeah,

1118
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 5: I don't agree with her, and then they can take

1119
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 5: that conversation and go forward as opposed to him being like,

1120
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 5: hey listen, you know like the like it's if you're

1121
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 5: in a private conversation, you're probably trying to get along

1122
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 5: with everyone, and so there you can probably have both

1123
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 5: of these things being true at once. That Charlie was

1124
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 5: telling Candace and others Matt Gaits maybe privately that he

1125
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 5: was frustrated with Netanyahu, and then he was telling pro

1126
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 5: Israel people that he was frustrated a bit with Candace.

1127
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 5: Like all of these things can be true at once, right,

1128
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 5: he didn't know that these conversations were going to turn

1129
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 5: into a political football when he was assassinated.

1130
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 4: So he was also asked by greta ancestor, and I

1131
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 4: think it was on air, like Nenyah was asked, did

1132
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 4: you have anything to do with killing him? I've had

1133
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 4: people ask me if I think that Israel had anything

1134
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 4: to do with this.

1135
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 3: I do not. And part of it is just on

1136
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: a baseline level.

1137
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 4: I don't think even if Netya, who say, wanted to

1138
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 4: do it, none of the security services would I think

1139
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 4: participate in it because they could not do it secretly.

1140
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 3: Like there's too much coordination. Like so it's just that.

1141
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 4: That's why it's like, you don't even have to investigate it.

1142
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 3: Any further than that.

1143
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 4: I think they just they they couldn't they couldn't keep

1144
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 4: it secret, so it wouldn't even make the whiteboard because

1145
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 4: you can't do it.

1146
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 3: Like they just can't do it.

1147
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1148
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it happens that at the time he was killed,

1149
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 4: all of this was going on, which, as I've said,

1150
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 4: is like another layer of tragedy.

1151
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 5: That's right, So we'll obviously continue to follow the story.

1152
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 5: Let's bring in Ken Clippenstein now Brian to talk about

1153
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 5: some of the messages from this discord server Ken was

1154
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 5: able to obtain.

1155
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 4: Independent journalist Ken Klippenstein had a big scoop yesterday put

1156
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 4: up b one here. This is from Ken Ken's substack

1157
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 4: exclusive leaked messages from Charlie Kirk assassin. So Ken spoke

1158
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 4: with people in Tyler Robinson's social circle and was able

1159
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 4: to get access to multiple discords that Robinson has been

1160
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 4: in in an effort to divine a little bit about

1161
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 4: a little bit more about who this person is.

1162
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

1163
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 4: This is one more scoop from Ken amid these these

1164
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 4: FBI situations. Pretty impressive, run Ken, We're we're happy to

1165
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 4: have you here on Breaking Points.

1166
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 8: Thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me.

1167
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 4: And I noticed that you said, you know you're willing

1168
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 4: to publish these and the mainstream media isn't you know?

1169
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 3: Sometimes you are.

1170
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 4: Other times I think you're just getting stuff that the

1171
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 4: mainstream media doesn't even have yet, so they don't even

1172
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 4: get to suppress it before you're obtaining it and publishing it. So,

1173
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 4: so nice job on getting this stuff. Let's let's run

1174
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 4: through a little bit of it. So this is zealous Monkey.

1175
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 4: That's that's Tyler's discord handle in this discord.

1176
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 3: Is that right?

1177
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's exactly right.

1178
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 4: And so he's saying, so this is the one where

1179
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 4: he kind of finally admits to this group. He's, hey, hey, guys,

1180
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 4: I have I have bad news for you all. It

1181
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 4: was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all of this.

1182
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 4: I'm surrendering through a share for in a few moments.

1183
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 4: Thanks for all the good times and laughs. You've all

1184
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 4: been so amazing. Thank you all for everything. And before that,

1185
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 4: somebody had said Charlie Kirk got shot dead. I just

1186
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 4: saw the video. Holy s rap. I guess bro didn't

1187
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 4: deserve to go out like that's sad. So talk a

1188
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 4: little bit about like who you spoke to, what you

1189
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 4: can tell us about who you spoke to, and kind

1190
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 4: of what kind of person they understood Tyler to be.

1191
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, So I talked to three people who knew him.

1192
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 9: All of them were involved in different discord channels.

1193
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 8: There wasn't just one.

1194
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 9: There are a bunch of them, just like how anyone

1195
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 9: uses social media, we use different channels.

1196
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 8: One of them knew him since childhood, and.

1197
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 9: So he had a perspective on his development and growth

1198
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,919
Speaker 9: and a kind of baseline for who he was, which

1199
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 9: I thought was interesting. But what was most surprising to

1200
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 9: me over the course of talking to these people was

1201
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 9: seeing those chats and thinking it was going to be

1202
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 9: like the sewer that Twitter is, and that would be

1203
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 9: you know, a mix of different reactions. But from what

1204
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 9: was said to me, it was all pretty measured and sympathetic.

1205
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 9: I thought there would be some you know, gloating or

1206
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 9: cheering about it, and I was surprised at the maturity

1207
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,959
Speaker 9: of a lot of these young twenty something year old men.

1208
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 9: And I mean you just read one example where they said,

1209
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 9: you know, Broden, Broden deserved to go out like that.

1210
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 9: So it's like, not necessarily people that you know liked

1211
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 9: or disliked him. It was just seeing the humanity of

1212
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 9: it and having what I thought was a human response.

1213
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 9: And that is the exact opposite of how this entire

1214
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 9: thing has been portrayed by the major media since the shooting.

1215
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 9: I spent a lot of the weekend just pulling together

1216
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 9: clips of news cable news channels saying that, you know,

1217
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 9: the dangerous threat of these young men extremists and discord channels,

1218
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 9: and that's just not what I found in the course

1219
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 9: of my reporting.

1220
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 5: So tell us a little bit about some of the

1221
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 5: reflections you heard from people who knew him, because in

1222
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 5: the story there is some really interesting stuff. So one

1223
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 5: quote here, even the goodbye message he sent in one

1224
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 5: of our servers, was so hard to believe. We all

1225
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 5: just thought, what a weird joke to make. Yeah, I

1226
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 5: don't know what makes a person like him decide he's

1227
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 5: going to drive two hundred and sixty miles upstate to

1228
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 5: shoot someone like Charlie Kirk then come back like nothing happened.

1229
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 5: It leaves a lot of room for speculation and theories,

1230
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 5: which is why I think they're so rampant. So Ken

1231
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 5: from this, it sounds like a lot of people who

1232
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 5: were chatting with him in these servers and knew him

1233
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 5: for years also, as we hear in many of these cases,

1234
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 5: were surprised that he would be capable of that level

1235
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 5: of evil.

1236
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, they were shocked and horrified, and I honestly, it's

1237
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 9: hard to report on a story like this and you know,

1238
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 9: try to have the remove that you need to as

1239
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 9: a reporter and not have this response of like, these

1240
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 9: are really young men who are twenty three, twenty four,

1241
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 9: and you can imagine if someone you had known and

1242
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 9: been friendly with for years you find this out about them.

1243
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 9: I mean, that's got to be really traumatic. In addition

1244
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 9: to that, you have FBI director Cash Bartel saying we're

1245
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 9: going to investigate everyone in these channels, which you know

1246
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 9: some measure of investigation is warranted. Just this kind of

1247
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 9: assumption that you see ricocheting around on social media that oh,

1248
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 9: they must have been in on it. Not only is

1249
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 9: that not true, it's kind of gross because it's like

1250
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 9: they're probably going through stuff just like anyone else who

1251
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 9: saw the shooting was. I mean not just probably, they are,

1252
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 9: and I think it's really hard for them and they're

1253
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 9: just kind of shocked. I think they're still processing it,

1254
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 9: and that surprised me because it wasn't the kind of

1255
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 9: nihilistic attitude that I think we're led to believe exists,

1256
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 9: not just on the part of young men, but on

1257
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 9: these social media platforms in general, and about which there's

1258
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 9: all this hysteria and fear mongering about. I mean, they

1259
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 9: were way more thoughtful than I was at twenty two

1260
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 9: or twenty three.

1261
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 8: Like I hope I.

1262
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 9: Wouldn't approve of a horrible act like that. I don't

1263
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 9: think I would, but I can definitely find people who

1264
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 9: did on other social media platforms. So I was surprised

1265
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 9: by the depth of the response.

1266
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 4: And one thing that wasn't terribly a surprised to me,

1267
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 4: but I think it's worth mentioning is that there's basically

1268
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 4: no conversation about now politics in here, which is important

1269
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 4: to Like, I'm not surprised by it, but just gauging

1270
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 4: the news coverage, you would suspect that these discords are

1271
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 4: just like hot beds of you know, radical national political discussion,

1272
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 4: but in fact not at all. You had them search

1273
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 4: and found it's found you can put this put this

1274
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 4: one up here one mention of Trump, which is he says,

1275
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 4: an impeachment inquiry has been placed against Donald Trump. He

1276
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: could get booted out if they find he committed the

1277
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 4: s he's accused of, which is actually slightly naive because

1278
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 4: Trump in twenty nineteen, this is the Ukraine thing, like

1279
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 4: the perfect phone call.

1280
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 3: He did do the thing he was accused of, and

1281
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 3: he did not get impeached.

1282
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 4: So oh for one on his political analysis there, but

1283
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 4: then on election night in twenty twenty, that is the

1284
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 4: only reference to Biden. Well, somebody asks Tyler Zealius monkey,

1285
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 4: who was winning the election?

1286
01:07:55,920 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 3: You would know, which is an interesting insight.

1287
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 4: It shows like and we understand this politically, that every

1288
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 4: social group has like this the guy who follows politics,

1289
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 4: and that guy is actually pretty influential because he then

1290
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 4: is the filter through which a lot of his friends

1291
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 4: then understand politics, which is why our show, for instance,

1292
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 4: I think is interesting because like those people watch our show,

1293
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 4: they get their news from Ustle and then they share

1294
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 4: it with or they read your substack, and they share

1295
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 4: information with their social circle.

1296
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,839
Speaker 3: So he responds accurately.

1297
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 4: Bien is in the lead electoral votes wise, but there's

1298
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 4: still some swing states that haven't finished voting as well as.

1299
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 3: Most of the West Coast raw votes.

1300
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 4: Donald is in the lead by a little over one

1301
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 4: million votes, and they ask him who is probably gonna win.

1302
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 3: He says, I'm not sure, and they ask when will

1303
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 3: we know?

1304
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 4: Not until pretty late, but we should have a pretty

1305
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 4: good idea at the end of the night, unless it's

1306
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 4: really close or something that doesn't sound like he cares

1307
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 4: that much, just kind of objective, like FYI guys like this,

1308
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 4: this is what we'll know here. So that was all

1309
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 4: they could find when it came to the national politics.

1310
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 4: And then I want to ask you about this one post,

1311
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 4: the kind of goodbyepost that's religious in nature somebody posted

1312
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 4: on here. Hey everyone, if you have not seen the

1313
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 4: news yet, Tyler's post above is true. He was taken

1314
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 4: in a custody earlier today for the shooting of Charlie Kirk.

1315
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 3: Regardless of the.

1316
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 4: Horrible actions that took place, we must take this moment

1317
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 4: to remember that God is a living and loving God

1318
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 4: who loves all his children. God calls sinners to be

1319
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 4: his saints, and I ask that you all take a

1320
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 4: quiet moment to pray for Tyler and his repentance. While

1321
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk's politics were not acceptable to some, I asked

1322
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 4: that we all say a prayer for him and his

1323
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 4: family during these confusing times.

1324
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:45,759
Speaker 3: Love you all, God blessed.

1325
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 4: Now, I think some people have read that and said

1326
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 4: this is just cover so that folks in this discord

1327
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 4: don't get brought under the cloud of suspicion themselves, which

1328
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 4: they're already under.

1329
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 3: I don't read it that way.

1330
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 4: That to me feels like earnest religiosity in a way

1331
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 4: that you can't fake. Emily would be better. Actually, Emily,

1332
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 4: is that Like that sounded pretty credible? Like, yes, I

1333
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 4: couldn't make that up now, Like I couldn't put that together. No,

1334
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 4: Like that's that's somebody who believes what he's saying there.

1335
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 4: So I mean, so, Ken, what did you What did

1336
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 4: you take away from that and these other messages.

1337
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, so I didn't get into in this story, but

1338
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 9: just in my conversation with people, what I was told

1339
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 9: is that it wasn't even that they're all religious. It

1340
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 9: was described to me as just a mix of different guys.

1341
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 9: And I was reminded of how differently politics is seen

1342
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 9: by people who are not obsessives like us, where It's

1343
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 9: like people can have different views, people can have different

1344
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 9: religious views, and it's not that big of a deal.

1345
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 9: And as was described to me, you know a lot

1346
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 9: of these guys knew each other in person. Another thing

1347
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 9: I wish I had gone into in the story was

1348
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 9: that these most of them were physical, like real irl friends.

1349
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 9: These were not just random people on the internet. So

1350
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 9: these are people that knew each other pretty well. And again,

1351
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 9: as was described to me, they had a range of

1352
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 9: different views and it just didn't sound like that big

1353
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 9: of a deal to them.

1354
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,520
Speaker 8: And I think that's part of why this is so traumatic.

1355
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 9: To them, because they clearly didn't understand the importance that

1356
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 9: Robinson had assigned in his mind. We now know from

1357
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:20,080
Speaker 9: the text messages released his views on his frankly hatred

1358
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 9: of Charlie Kirk's position on trans issues. I don't think

1359
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 9: that people really thought about that kind of stuff very much.

1360
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:27,519
Speaker 8: And I really looked.

1361
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 9: I had my source going to the messages, and it

1362
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,759
Speaker 9: had Tom query certain things and the returns were basically

1363
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 9: like the Trump example that we said, Oh, there was

1364
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 9: an election in twenty twenty, Obviously that's the day that

1365
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 9: everybody checks in for like forty eight hours or whatever

1366
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 9: it is, and has an opinion and then they check out.

1367
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 9: And that's not unusual. I think that's actually probably how

1368
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 9: most of the country is, where it's kind of like occasionally, oh,

1369
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 9: I wonder what that is, and then you just go

1370
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 9: back to what it was you were doing. So again

1371
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 9: I was just struck by how much like all this

1372
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 9: stuff was just not on the radar of the people involved.

1373
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 9: And again that is so different than the picture of

1374
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:07,879
Speaker 9: this discord group is some hot bed of radical ferment

1375
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 9: and just this snake pit of extremism just not true

1376
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 9: at all.

1377
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 8: What were these are just guys having fun?

1378
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1379
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:15,640
Speaker 4: What are they so you had them search for I

1380
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 4: assume LGBT trans gay Like what are they mostly talking

1381
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 4: about in these discords?

1382
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 3: Well?

1383
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 5: And can like also kind of a question about that too,

1384
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 5: like who is in the discords? How many people are

1385
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,679
Speaker 5: in the discords? Are they act of all day?

1386
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 10: Like?

1387
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 5: What? Just give us a nature too of what you're

1388
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,719
Speaker 5: able to ascertain about what was going on in the servers.

1389
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 9: I would guess each one is somewhere in the dozens,

1390
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 9: because again, these were all like you know, these were

1391
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 9: all pretty close friends. This wasn't like just everybody jumps in.

1392
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 9: That's one thing that's distinct about Discord. They have individual servers.

1393
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:49,599
Speaker 9: It's not Twitter where just everyone's on there all the time.

1394
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 9: These are people that know each.

1395
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 5: Other and did they know each other in IRL like

1396
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 5: DoD They know each other from school.

1397
01:12:55,520 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 9: Mostly I don't know how exactly, but they all live Anya.

1398
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 9: Some of them moved and kept in touch, but I

1399
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 9: would imagine school. Yeah, because these guys are like twenty two,

1400
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 9: twenty three, twenty four, I mean, the exact group that

1401
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 9: the entire media had this performative thing about after the elections,

1402
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 9: say we've got to get more in touch with them

1403
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 9: and understand them. And then they go and call these

1404
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 9: guys basically terrorists for like the last five days. I mean,

1405
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 9: these new segments are crazy. I can't tell you how

1406
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:26,840
Speaker 9: many former FBI agents I've seen on cable news saying

1407
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 9: we have to take seriously the threat of these young

1408
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 9: men blah blah blah blah blah. And when I so

1409
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 9: much so that, I mean, I was skeptical, but when

1410
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 9: I came into this, I thought I would find some

1411
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 9: of that.

1412
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 8: I found zero of that right in these chat rooms.

1413
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 9: I mean, and I guess the account would be maybe

1414
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 9: they're saying it off platform or whatever, but I don't.

1415
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 9: That's not the vibe that I get from these things,

1416
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 9: because it's just they're easy going. I posted some of

1417
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 9: the pictures they're posting, like, oh, I had to fix

1418
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 9: this thing in my house, check this out, what do

1419
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 9: you think? Or like a really cold day today. Just

1420
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 9: kind of like normal stuff, regular stuff.

1421
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 3: And so these don't remotely seem like tests or royper types.

1422
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 8: No, not at all.

1423
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 9: And I was frustrated by that too, because I saw

1424
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 9: it was almost like QAnon, where these liberals were just

1425
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 9: picking out these very specific and just reading all of

1426
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 9: this stuff into it.

1427
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 8: There's absolutely no evidence for that. There is evidence for that.

1428
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 9: He cared strongly about LGBT issues, and I mentioned that

1429
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 9: towards the top of the story, and now from the

1430
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 9: text messages that have been released, we know that that

1431
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 9: was a you know, motivating factor in what Robinson did.

1432
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 9: But outside of that, I don't. I wasn't able to

1433
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 9: find very much.

1434
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Ken, you're doing this in the context of

1435
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 5: your reporting about law enforcement getting like tuned into the

1436
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 5: NVE category, and you've covered this, but I think that's

1437
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 5: the non violent the nihilistic extremism. Right, So tell us

1438
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 5: a little bit, because I think this is important and

1439
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:53,719
Speaker 5: actually maybe even important to some folks on the right

1440
01:14:54,520 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 5: who are concerned about aggravating, needlessly aggravating, angsty, angry, downtrodden

1441
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 5: young men, about how the government has started to categorize

1442
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 5: and potentially even surveil some people in those categories.

1443
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I have many of the same concerns here, which

1444
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 9: is not that the two groups are similar at all.

1445
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 9: There's some ugly groups like Order of the Nine. You know,

1446
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 9: real things that exist. They do terrible things, no question

1447
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 9: about it. But when I read a lot of these things,

1448
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 9: I just think it's not a useful way to conceptualize

1449
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 9: the problem people that don't care about anything that don't

1450
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:39,559
Speaker 9: It's like there's a deep seated rejection of participation in

1451
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 9: society and stuff that's that's real there. But just saying

1452
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 9: that this is totally random and there's essentially no cause

1453
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 9: for it, I think that's a mistake. I think we

1454
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 9: should try to understand what's leading to this stuff. But anyways,

1455
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 9: that's a new designation that they created earlier this year,

1456
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 9: and in many I think the impression I get from

1457
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 9: people in Bureau is that it's a replacement for a

1458
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 9: category that they had before, which was called anti government,

1459
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 9: anti authority, violent extremists. So this is kind of under

1460
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,599
Speaker 9: the Trump administration, this is the new conceptualization of the

1461
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 9: domestic which is to say, American threat, And so they're

1462
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 9: going to be focused on Americans. And again I'm not

1463
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,640
Speaker 9: saying that these groups don't weren't focused. The question is

1464
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 9: do we want to conceptualize the problem as just random

1465
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 9: stuff just falling from the sky like a media or

1466
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 9: do we want to try to understand what is really

1467
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:28,599
Speaker 9: going on here or just prosecute crimes instead of obsessing

1468
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 9: about ideologies and things. I mean, the FBI has become

1469
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 9: so interested in what people believe, and I see that

1470
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 9: as kind of distinct from the problem.

1471
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think the one thing we can take

1472
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:45,639
Speaker 4: from this is that Discord caught some unfair strays in this.

1473
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, this does not remotely seem to be the

1474
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 4: place fbis q anything else.

1475
01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1476
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 9: During the Discord leaks, there was the platform where Jack

1477
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 9: Trashiera the US Airmen disclosed a those classified records. So

1478
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 9: as a consequence of that, people in the intelligence community

1479
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:02,719
Speaker 9: are really paranoid about this platform, and when you see

1480
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:04,400
Speaker 9: on the cable news segments about it, they don't know

1481
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 9: what it is. It's evident that they think it's some

1482
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 9: kind of I mean, it's basically WhatsApp for gaming. You

1483
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 9: can make phone calls, you can text, you can send pictures,

1484
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 9: that kind of thing. That's all it is. And there's

1485
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:15,759
Speaker 9: this hysteria. And I really think there's like an ageis

1486
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 9: component to it because a lot of these guys like

1487
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:20,760
Speaker 9: Governor Cox of Utah or come out and say, oh,

1488
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 9: you need to log off, like leave the platforms or whatever.

1489
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 9: He's still using Facebook, he's still using YouTube, you still

1490
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 9: using Twitter, And that's fine.

1491
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 8: I mean, it's good that he's trying to reach the public.

1492
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 9: But to act like this is some kind of alien,

1493
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 9: exotic thing when the reality is it's just gen Z What'sapp,

1494
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 9: or probably not even that much anymore because it's become

1495
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 9: so popular, and then to exoticize it and pretend like

1496
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 9: it's some scary thing it's just blows the whole thing

1497
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 9: out of proportion. It's just another platform. I don't see

1498
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 9: what the hysteria is, and I guess part of it

1499
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 9: is that they just don't understand what it is maybe

1500
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 9: the name is scary, discord, oh my god, chaos.

1501
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 5: Well, and I think the fact that the servers aren't,

1502
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 5: you know, in a sense that like it's probably maybe healthier.

1503
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 5: I know it goes in both directions sometimes with discord.

1504
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 9: But oh no, I totally agree. It doesn't have an algorithm.

1505
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 9: It's just a bunch of chat rooms basically, and so

1506
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 9: you decide who's in it. And to me, that's health Like,

1507
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 9: I agree with you. I think that's healthier. But to

1508
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 9: a lot of people it's like, whoa, this is foreign.

1509
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 9: I thought it was like Twitter, where everybody sees everything

1510
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:19,599
Speaker 9: all the time.

1511
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 5: Right, it feels like it's behind closed doors, which it

1512
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,720
Speaker 5: is literally behind closed doors, but there's just something about that.

1513
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 5: It feels different than the performative social media where it's

1514
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 5: all for public consumption, like global public consumption.

1515
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 8: Totally.

1516
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:35,680
Speaker 5: Maybe that's what's more suspect about it to people. I

1517
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 5: don't know, but Ken, this was a super interesting story.

1518
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 5: Thank you for your reporting and for joining us on

1519
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:41,719
Speaker 5: the show.

1520
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 8: Thanks so much, guys.

1521
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,919
Speaker 5: And where can people subscribe to the substack?

1522
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 8: I'm on Kenclippinstein dot com.

1523
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 5: Ken Clippinstein check. If you head over there, you see

1524
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:54,800
Speaker 5: a big endorsement from Ryan Groom of all people, that

1525
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 5: is true.

1526
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 3: There you go.

1527
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 8: Well, not easy to get guys.

1528
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,640
Speaker 3: That's right, precious, I'd say it can