WEBVTT - Make Time For Niksen 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.520 Jen Kirkman. Hi there, and welcome to another episode of 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.479 Anxiety Bites. So I was thinking, as we're close to 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.840 the new year, here to give you an anti New 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:29.360 Year's resolution, what if this year you did more nothing? 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.479 And I don't mean look at your phone and scroll Twitter, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.040 I mean nothing, And I don't mean watch a movie nothing. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.960 I mean nothing. And I don't mean sit around and 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.200 stare at the ceiling and make it to do list 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:42.559 in your head and think about all the work that 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.639 you have to do, or worry about anything. I mean nothing. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.760 It's not meditating. You can have thoughts going through your head, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.440 but what if they were just fantasies you I don't know, 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.320 sit there and think about your the star of a 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.319 I don't know music video. I'm just fans as are 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.040 just look around and let thoughts come and go. But 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.160 is I'm meditating? You're just actually doing nothing. You're just chilling. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:08.640 I mean, I guess maybe you could read a book, 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.640 as long as whatever you're doing isn't for a goal. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.400 It's not like I have to read this book for work. 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.280 Am I gonna watch this movie? Because you know it's 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.800 gonna inspire me to do something, you know, it just 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.000 just do nothing. That's I was gonna say, what I'm 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:23.640 challenging you to do. I hate the word challenge. I 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.720 hate in the New Years when it's like yoga challenge. 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.720 That doesn't really that's not seeing what yoga is all 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.160 about to me. Challenge yourself to meditate. I don't like 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.600 that either. That's why I love today's guest Olga mek Ing. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.560 We talk about the art of doing nothing. You know, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.040 there's that great Seinfeld episode where I don't know, I 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.080 think it's from season three or something. It was early 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.360 on in the series when um Jerry Seinfeld's character Jerry 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.800 gets approached by these executives and NBC and they want 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:52.160 him to come up with a sick come idea. And 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.919 he's talking to his friend George Costanza about it, and 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.240 you know, George is like, Okay, what if you run 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.360 a zoo or you no, you'r blah blah blah blah blah. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.840 And one day they're just sitting at the diner talking 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:05.960 about salsa and George is like, this is the show 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.359 this and Jerry's like, what's the show And George is 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.840 like this, you know, talking about Salza, you know, just 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:15.280 nothing and Jerry's like nothing and George is like, that's it. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.840 The your sitcom is about nothing. And Jerry's like nothing, 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:21.320 I mean, what happens. He's like the same thing that 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.800 happens in real life. You know, there's a character based 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.040 on me and Elaine and Cramer and we come to 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.520 your apartment sometimes we sit and talk at the diner's 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.080 like nothing and Jerry goes, huh, nothing could be something. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:35.240 And then they go pitch it to the network and 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.240 networks like well what happens? And George is like nothing, 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.000 and they're like, well, something has to happen. He's like, no, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:45.680 it doesn't. Oh my god. I love that episode. But 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.000 that is the art of Nixon, not Nixon, like the 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.160 President n I K S E. N. That is the 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.000 name of Olga Meckings book, Nixon embracing the Dutch art 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.080 of doing nothing. Thing. Shroout the book in English and 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.720 it's going to be translated in a ton of languages. 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.480 And the book came out and it sits on my 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.799 coffee table because I think it's a great reminder. It's 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.200 a really fun book to flip through, but it's well, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.160 we're going to talk about it when I talk to 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.200 her in this episode about really the only way to 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:23.280 define Nixon is to talk about what it isn't and um, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.280 and there's a science behind it. It's actually really good 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.120 for your brain to kind of do nothing every once 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.080 in a while. It's like turning off your phone, you know, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.880 and just letting it reset itself again. Even though great 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:37.440 things happen when you do nothing, you don't even have 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:38.840 to think about all the great things that are gonna 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:40.520 happen when you're doing nothing, because it's a little too 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.320 much like doing something. So I don't know, maybe this 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.120 new year, while you're sitting there coming up with resolutions, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.400 maybe you stop, put the pen down and stop, or 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.760 maybe you just right on your resolutions. Maybe I'll just 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.520 try to do a little and nothing once a week, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.000 because it's okay to schedule nothing. It's okay to schedule 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.160 you're nothing. You can be your ganized about doing nothing. 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:03.840 She can probably explain it better than I can't. So 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:11.080 I hope you enjoy my conversation with Olda making thank 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.480 you for being here. Now you are the author of 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.960 uh this book sits on my coffee table. I tell 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.200 everyone to buy it. Nixon embracing the Dutch art of 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.520 doing nothing. And of course let's just first and foremost, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:29.640 what is Nixon? It literally means doing nothing in that 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.440 or to do do nothing. Um. I just love that the 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.440 Dutch had one word for, you know, to describe doing nothing, 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.160 whereas in other languages you would have to use a 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.480 whole bunch of words like in English would say to 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.920 do nothing or not to do anything. Yeah, and then 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.320 the Dutch say just say it in one word, nic 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.440 And I thought that was brilliant. So would you say, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.479 how do you use it in a sentence like I'm 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.960 nixon ing today? Yeah, I need unique SUNI says, like 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.640 if you wanted to use it the same way asn't Dutch. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.000 I think it's it's a bit similar in English where 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.080 you can turn everything into a verb, like each said 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.640 the word parent as a person, and then it became 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.840 a verb like parenting or to parent, or you have 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:21.680 the noun adult and that also changed to become a 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:27.000 verb to adult adult ing right right, kind of similar. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:33.280 So I think, in my opinion, if people next more, 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:39.159 they would probably find that in other areas of life, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:44.279 their anxiety decreases, so that's the listeners. Why I think 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.400 this book is an important tool kit in your anxiety 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.000 recovery journey. And and it's really fun as well. And 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.840 I do think that's a big part of, you know, um, 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.240 healing your anxious life is remembering to have fun. So 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.600 where it all started with you? Would you say that 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.680 your New York Times article from twenty nine it was 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.080 called um, the Case for doing Nothing? Is this what 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:11.440 made you um famous for talking about Nixt? And well, 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.840 I wrote an article before that for a smaller publication, 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.600 and it was it was more of a trend piece, 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.160 like because in like twenties sixteen, we had Hugo, the 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.760 Danish trend of coziness of you know, lightning candles and 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:30.320 I'm wearing warm sweaters and I thought, oh, that's so 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.719 much work. And then I found out about Nixon and 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:36.719 I thought that's so much better. And I wrote this 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.799 article called like it was a bit, you know, tongue 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.880 in cheek and I said, that's the new that trend. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.520 That's so much better than Hugo. So and um. And 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:51.080 then I think a few months later I wrote a 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.520 similar story for the New York Times, but it was 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.200 more of a service piece, so more how how to 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.320 like how to do nothing more often? And that that 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.680 one insane. I think it had like a hundred fifty 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.960 thousand ships and not shares, not not clicks that shares. Um, 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.680 I didn't expect that at all. So let's define Nixon. 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.160 We know it's doing nothing, and somebody listening could say 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.040 I do nothing all the time. I just watched a movie. 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.560 And in the book you clearly state it's almost like 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.280 the best way to define Nixon is to define what 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.840 it isn't. And I've listed some of the things that 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.680 you say it isn't. It is not watching TV, it 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.520 is not looking at the internet. Um, if you're an artist, 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.200 like a writer, thinking about what you're going to write about, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.440 is not doing nothing. It looks like it from the outside, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:44.400 but nope, it's not laziness, it's not boredom, and it's 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.560 not going it is going from one distraction to the next. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:49.640 And I mean it's not going from one distraction to 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.520 the next, although you can follow your fantasies and thoughts. 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.200 So what what else isn't it? I mean, basically, what's 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.160 the gist? Yeah, so I kind of tried to to 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.600 define it, like, um to myself and my readers, what 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.720 is Nixon? Because I was thinking, okay, scrolling Facebook, is 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:12.280 that doing nothing? Or um answering emails? And is that 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.040 doing nothing? Because so many people you know at work, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.040 for example, when you're asking, hey, what you're doing like 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:23.480 like um And I kind of tried to define it, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.160 and I found it very hard to define simply because 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.680 you know, often people make their own definition of what 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.760 doing nothing is to them. The definition I use in 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:38.439 the book is um is to fold and one part 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.240 is to do nothing, to literally do nothing. So not 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.080 browsing Facebook, not reading emails, that's pe one. Part two 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:51.480 is without a purpose, because so often we expect everything 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.400 we do to have some sort of goal or purpose. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.360 For example, we uh, we don't go for walks because 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.560 it's nice. We go for walks because we feel we 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.560 have to make a certain amount of steps every day. Yeah, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.559 we don't eat because it tastes nice. We eat because 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.320 it's healthy or good for us. And I thought it 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.560 was a pity because it's sometimes nice to do things 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.480 just because it's just for the hell of it or 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.920 just because it feels good, not because we expect to 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.720 get some sort of benefits from it. So in other words, 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:24.760 you know, one of the things I thought was really 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.760 interesting and a great clarification, as you said, it's not mindfulness, 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.400 you know, we're not. This is not meditation, you know, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:39.560 which is actually doing something. This is really the opposite. Right, Well, yes, 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.040 that's what I said in the book. Yeah. But then 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:43.960 I talked to our friends and she's like, but you 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.520 know what if I sit in a cafe and I 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.079 watched people walk by and kind of space out or 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.840 our daydream, and she calls it meditation, and I would say, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.880 that's Nixon. Yeah, it's a lot harder to define what 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.600 it is and what it is, but I think it 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.440 also gives people more room to kind of apply it 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.160 in their own life because it's not like, Okay, today 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.240 I said on my couch and thought, at what work? Oh, 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.679 I feel that Nixon? Right, there's I think in a 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.280 wellness space, there's so much feeling that you're a failure 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.000 if you don't adhere to those very strict guidelines. If 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.200 you call meditation sitting in a cafe and you're watching 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.760 people go by or watching the clouds, it's something to 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.400 me that sneaks sensor. So she called it notation. I 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.160 called the Nix and and it's sort of the thing. 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.160 It can be the same thing, just the same way 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.040 watching TV. Right, you can watch TV in a way 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.559 you kind of take in what's happening. You're watching the action. 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.480 You think, Okay, those are great actors, I really like 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.040 this actress, or there's a great movie. And I can 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.920 also kind of think about something else or space out 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.880 in and it goes somewhere in your head and the 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.880 movie will play in the background. Yeah, I found that much. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.439 Those are too Junison. Yeah, that makes sense. You're not 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.280 get letting it. Um, you're letting your mind wander. And 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:10.960 I do see what your friend is saying. So she's 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.120 doing a thing but calling it meditation. But I would say, 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.400 as someone who does mindfulness meditation, I do think it's 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:19.720 different in the sense of when I do mindfulness, I'm 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.320 supposed to wrangle my thoughts back to this one thing. Right, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:28.319 And I don't enjoy meditating, but I do it, and 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.679 I have to force myself to sit and do it. 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.240 I'm happy when I've done it. Nixon, I don't have 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.880 to force myself. It's comes naturally. And I love watching 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.240 my mind wander. Um, I don't even feel the pressure 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.200 unlike mindfulness to watch my mind. I don't care. I 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.679 don't even remember what I've just thought, you know, that 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:55.440 kind of thing, and it is it to me. It 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.640 does feel different. Where like you said, there's no point 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.840 to it, um in the moment. I mean maybe I 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:03.720 think in life there is a point to it, but 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.240 like in the moment, right, there's no goal. But I 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.240 like how you mentioned wellness because in the book, and 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.720 I'm paraphrasing something you said, but that you know, there's 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.880 a problem in the wellness industry that all of these 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.880 things people are telling us to do, it's really a 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.600 quest for happiness. But it's a process that's devoid of joy. 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.080 And I love that. That's so true. It's kind of 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.840 felt to meet that way. It's all very It's supposed 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.079 to be hard work. Like everything we do is supposed 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.640 to be hard work. Whether we eat, we kind of, 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.080 you know, just make ourselves dinner. You have to be 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.720 it has to be especially prepared, and and we have 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.360 to read labels at the supermarket to make sure that 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.200 no chemicals enter our sacred bodies. And um, we kind 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.520 of just move around. We have to do certain steps 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.600 of exercises, it's all you know, we have to do this, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.640 we have to do this, and now we could do this. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.480 And and I like what you said about meditation. I 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.200 think that the differences between like ignacizing and just moving 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.320 for the sake of it. So let's say my brother. Um, 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.160 my brother is very active, very athletic, and he runs 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:17.000 my marathon sometimes. Yeah, and he says, um, when I 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.120 trained for a marathon, he runs, right. But the idea 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.280 is that he trains for a marathon. That's not Nixon, 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.120 but he just goes for a run because he likes it. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.679 That would be Nixon. And maybe not Nixon, but least 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:31.680 what I is what I called in the book, I 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.400 called it the Nixon approach. Yeah right, I forgot about 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.400 that for the Nixon approach, Yeah, which is like just 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.880 because I like it because I like it because it 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.040 feels good. It feels good because I feel like it 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.360 because just because yeah, well it's true. You know, with 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.319 the wellness industry, what I saw expect I was really 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.160 blown away that during lockdown. You know, it was great, 0:13:55.200 --> 0:14:00.280 but so many online exercise places had free yoga and 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:05.080 free anything, you know whatever. Um, and they would do 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.200 us a thirty day challenge, And I'm like, are we 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.360 still using that language during a global pandemic? And I 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.959 just hate that. I hate wellness and it always has 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:20.000 these other words involved challenge. Everything has to be contest, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.040 a competition, you know, instagram worthy. Like you said, cooking dinner, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.800 you better make it look beautiful because then you have 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.040 to post about it. You know, It's there's just I 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.200 feel like there's just been a lot of like you said, 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.480 joy sucked out of things that we did used to 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.520 do for pleasure, like cooking or even a yoga class 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.080 or something like that, and no one is doing the 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.560 Nixon approach. Yeah, exactly. And my ment problem with the 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:49.240 wellness industry was basically, you know, if if society is 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.560 perfect and one person has anxiety, that's an individual problem. 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.920 But if so many people have anxiety, then that's not 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.520 an individual problem. That's a social problem, I think. And 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.440 then one that tells us, you know, I have to 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.960 look into yourself and get rid of your own anxiety, 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:15.480 like it's your problem. Will be right back. Can you 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.200 give me an example? How do you do next? And 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.760 how do you next? So mostly on my couch and 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:27.880 often while reading, and um, because when I'm reading well, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.400 I love books, but often when I'm reading, it's I 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.400 read a very nice sentence, just like it's nice words 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.320 put together, and then I need to think about that 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.760 because it's just such a nice sentence or something I've 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.360 read that makes me remember something else that I read 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.760 in a different book that I kind of begin thinking 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:50.600 about this connection between those two things, or kind of 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.720 I get an idea for another another article or something. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.320 So it's gonna be often while reading or just saying, 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.240 sitting on my couch, and it's I found very often 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.480 that Nixon, you know, with meditation, um you're told to 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.520 meditate for maybe you know, how half an hour something 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.560 like in this ball park of how you know half 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.000 an hour, it could be longer. Nixon is going to 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.680 be more in between things. For example, I said, you know, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.040 being a creative and thinking about writing, even if it 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.280 looks like Nix, and it isn't, but it often does 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.000 kind of states you go from nixton to think about work, 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.240 just thinking about your kids, just thinking about something else, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.960 and maybe if you sit on that couch for you 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.080 don't know, fifteen minutes, maybe a part of it is 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.640 going to be spent Nixon thing. But a part of it, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.120 it's not and that's something normal I found. I found that, 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.240 at least how that's how my brain works. It just 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.400 jumps from one thought to another. And from what I read, 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.800 that's supposed to be a bust thing, but that's very 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.920 often how I'm I get my best ideas. Mm hmm. 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.920 That makes sense because you know as a writer, to 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.920 you there's a like I had a project and I 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.400 had a month to do it, and the first two 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:12.119 weeks I didn't sit down and type anything, but it 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.200 wasn't procrastination. It feels very different in my body. So 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.919 the first two weeks is very buzzy and creative. I 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.760 can just feel it in my soul. But part of 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.560 my creative process is to not right right away, and 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:30.280 then sometimes when I put off writing, we're getting now 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.879 into procrastination. And that brings me to something that you 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.080 talked about in your book as well, which is that 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.440 there are three types of procrastinators, and one of them 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.600 is the anxious procrastinator, and that's me. And so if 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.800 you can I think we'll stick with that one because 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.000 it's an anxiety pocket if you can talk to us 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.320 about I just we kind of just naturally jumped here. 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:52.320 But I have so much to get back to you. 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.200 But if you can talk about what is an anxious procrastinator? 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.399 But how can practicing Nixon help with that? Yeah, so 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.960 that's not my kind of UM like, I wrother about this, 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.679 but yeah, the person who told me about it was 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.480 Christian Reuben. Oh yeah, I found an article of hers 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.280 where she said that the way she fights procrastination is 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.000 by telling herself, Okay, either you do the work, are 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.760 you don't do anything? Those are the two choices. You 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:26.960 do what you're supposed to do. You do the work, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.880 you're right, Are you kind of do the re podcast 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.640 or whatever? Or you do nothing. You don't go organize 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.240 your bookshelf, you don't go, you know, cook dinner. You 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.320 don't do that. Wow. And her point is that at 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.720 some point the the just the idea of not doing 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.919 anything and sitting there, it's become so unbearable and you 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.080 started working. But not that's not what anxious procrastinators do. 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.439 I think what they do is, well, they have a 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.800 um deadline brooming and uh like the project seems so 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.560 big and overwhelming that they feel they kind of do it, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.080 but they want to few productive, so instead they're gonna 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:12.560 go and organize their bookshelves. Yeah, that that that's definitely relatable. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.800 I love that because, yeah, if you choose to do nothing, 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.320 it probably will open up your creativity a little bit. 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.880 And then eventually you'll just get sick of doing nothing 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.679 and you have to go do the other thing. If 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:27.879 you can really stick to those two rules, you know. 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:33.160 But do you think that that it can help um, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.520 you know, creative people with the thought process to just 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.720 kind of I feel like if it's almost like a computer, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:40.920 like every once in a while, if you just don't 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.320 turn your computer off for even ten minutes a day, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.200 I feel like it's getting hot, it's overheating. Things get slower. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.480 I mean, is there is there a benefit that doesn't 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.359 happen in the moment that happens later if we practice 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.320 doing nothing and I don't even know how often how 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:00.840 many minutes a day we're supposed to do it? So 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.120 how long and how often should we do it? And 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.120 then what are the benefits that show up later? Yes? 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.240 So I cannot tell you how often or how long, 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.000 just as as long as you can kind of bear it, 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.760 or as long as you're able to. And maybe if 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.360 you look at your at what you're doing during the day, 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.000 you'll find that you might actually spend more time doing 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:25.239 nothing than you think. Um, not really, we kind of 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.439 there's are cause these small moments that we tend to 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.320 look over because they're not productive or we think they're 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.040 not productive, which speaking as productivity, I spoke to productivity 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.720 experts and was still, look, we know that we've our 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.720 bodies work all day long in some capacity, running, jumping, 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:50.639 pushing stuff, picking up stuff. It gets tired. Everybodies get tired, 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:52.840 and we need to eat, and we need to drink, 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.480 and we need breaks. But when it comes to mind, 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.400 I think the expectation is that we're supposed to if 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.600 we're at work and working in a kind of office 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.520 sort of environment and you know nine job, we are 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:11.640 expected to for for our brains to work that whole time. Right, 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.440 We don't think, oh, you know, maybe if our bodies 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.760 need a break, maybe our brains do too. So we 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:23.840 kind of expect people to give all throughout all that. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.480 You know, I eat plus hours day at work and 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.040 that's not that's not feasible, that's not possible. And I 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:32.800 know for myself when I spend too long writing an 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.280 article I end up writing nonsense like things. I read 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.040 it later and it was wasted time because things make 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.639 no sense. It would have been much better for me 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.440 to stop too. If I feel myself getting tired or 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.000 feel that I'm missing words, of forgetting words or kind 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:50.240 of find the right word, that would be a good 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.560 moment to get up and do something else and maybe 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.359 do nothing, or read a book, or make myself some tea, 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.840 or go for a walk, or go for a bicycle ride, 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.119 do something that's not connected to this kind of intensive 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.159 thinking that that's involved in writing or maybe also in 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.200 you know, office type of job, because many of us 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.119 work in those kind of we work with our brains, 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:17.040 many of us. Yeah, if we take breaks throughout the day, 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.960 we actually feel more productive and when we get more 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.199 done in a short amount of time, which is a 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:27.560 bit paradoxical. But I think like old productivity experts I 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.040 talked to, they say the same thing. You know, and 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.760 people start eating lunch at their desk. Now, so they're eating, 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.159 but there's no break. You know, they're not sitting in 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.840 the sun and enjoying food, and and you know, honestly, 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.199 too bad. It was linked to something that's bad for 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.400 your health smoking. But I would imagine that smokers had 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:49.360