1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or their employees. 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: suitable for everyone listening to. Discretion is advised. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: Radical is released every Tuesday and brought to you absolutely free, 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: but if you want to add free listening and early 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: access to next week's episode, subscribe to tenderfoot Plus. For 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: more information, check out tenderfootplus dot com. 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: Enjoy the episode. 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 4: Campsite Media. 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: Investigating what Really happened in the West End on the 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: nine of March sixteenth, two thousand. 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: The whole scene frame I frame. 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: It's been exhausting, but as a deadline approach to finish 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: reporting and to put this story out into the world, 17 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: I was starting to have a good sense of things, 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: of a man Jamil as someone who could have very 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: well shot those deputies, and of a West End community 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: that was far from peaceful. 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 3: As I was turning over. 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: Various scenarios in my head, two questions kept popping up. 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: Was there really only one person shooting at the deputies? 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: And did the FBI have someone there at the scene 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: when everything went down. These were hard questions to answer 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: because so few eyewitnesses came forward after the shootout, and 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: none of the ones who talked had to clear unobstructed view. 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: We spoke to one Abdusamat Jahad, the kid being tutored 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 2: inside the mashed when the shooting started, but Abdusamat was 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: on the floor and in a closet during most of 31 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: the shootout. I was starting to think I'd gotten all 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: I could get, stopped imagining there could be anything new 33 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: around the corner. You've heard me say it a lot, 34 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: that there was more to the story than the official account. 35 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: I thought I'd reached the limits of more. But there 36 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: was another eyewitness, a man named Damien Gordon. In the 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: late nineties, Damien, a young entrepreneur, discovered there was money 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: to be made and renting on apartments to students attending 39 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: the historically black colleges near the West End. Late one night, 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: he was driving near the park when he saw brothers 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: from the Mashjit out on the corners. The security patrol 42 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: of Maam Jamil's mas jed. 43 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 5: Like he would have them out there keep the drug 44 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 5: dealers away from the park because they knew it don't 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 5: come to the park, So when I saw that, I 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 5: was like, all right, I can't save a spot for 47 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 5: girls to come stay. 48 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: Damien ended up buying a house next to the mass 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: jed and renting it out to students. With deadlines and 50 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: the demands of making this podcast, we wavered a bit 51 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: on whether it was worth speaking to Damien. We had 52 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: read his story multiple times and all the documents were gathered, 53 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: So what else do we really need to know? So 54 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: we could we could jump to two thousand. What happened 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: that on that night you were doing some modeling? 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, So me and Stacy are coming to 57 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 5: the house. 58 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 2: Stacy is Damien's younger cousin, and he was with Demien 59 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: to help him move a bathtub into the house, but 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: the truck they were using got stuck in the mud. 61 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: When the gunfire started. Demian jumped from the truck to 62 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: see what was going on, but there were box trailers 63 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: parked in the fields next to the mastet, partially blocking 64 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: Damien's view. He couldn't see what was going on except 65 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: the deputy English was lying on the ground. 66 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 5: And then as I'm walking further out, it just goes 67 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 5: off tumbling, tumbling, So I run grab I mean, I 68 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 5: know scared. I run grab my cousin, throw him on 69 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 5: my shoulder, and I run up into the house. 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: Then I run to the back of the house. 71 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: Demien looked out a window, but he was still far 72 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: away and he couldn't see everything. When the shootings, Damien 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: heard two car door slam and then he heard a 74 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: car speed away. The two door slams we had seen 75 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: Damien describe that in one of his statements to prosecutors. 76 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: It could mean a lot of things that not one, 77 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: but two people were shooting back at Deputy English and 78 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: Deputy Kenchin. Or it could just mean that one person 79 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: threw something in the back seat of their car before 80 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: they drove away. The two door slams were notable but 81 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: seemed pretty inconclusive. But when we finally interviewed Damien at 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: a club he owned in Atlanta, he told us something else. 83 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: He said he actually saw two people get into the 84 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: car before it drove away. That would put two people 85 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: in the black Mercedes fleeing the scene. 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 3: That wasn't in the documents. 87 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 4: That was new. 88 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: Two people getting into the car. He was certain about it. 89 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: There were other inconsistencies in Damien's different tellings of what 90 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: happened that night, But this new information was too big 91 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: of a deal. We had to take it seriously. Damien 92 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: said he couldn't ide the people from the window where 93 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 2: he was watching, but he did seem to know something 94 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: else about who might have been there during the shootout, 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: something that he wasn't keen to share, so some other 96 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: people were there. 97 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 3: It gets a little it gets a little deeper than that. 98 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: You know, we can't have that conversation. But you know 99 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: what I'm saying, But. 100 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: But what do you mean, Well, if you don't want 101 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: to have the conversation, then let's have it off off. 102 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, we had to have that off books. 103 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 4: You know it is there. 104 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, you need to turn it off, like you need to. 105 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: Turn that off. 106 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: What Damian told us was off the record, and we'll 107 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: stay off the record. But Johnny and I left that 108 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: meeting kind of pumped. We were feeling hopeful that we 109 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: might actually get to the bottom of what happened the night. 110 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 7: Of the shootout. 111 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: From Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. This is Radical, 112 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: I'm Mostly Secret. Episode eight, The Legend of a Man 113 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: Jimmil Consider a black boy who came into this world 114 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: with a fiery nature in the nineteen forties Jim Crow 115 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: South racial oppression at every turn. Humiliations didn't put out 116 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: his light, They only made his fire burn hotter gave 117 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: him something he felt he should burn. 118 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: Consider that the child grew up to. 119 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: Be a trap Brown whose nickname made clear that he 120 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: had away with rhymes and words he could rouse the 121 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: brothers on the corner to follow him to the front 122 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: lines of the Black struggle, rifles in hand, firebombs in hand, 123 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: because the real way to defeat American violence, he told them, 124 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: was to harness violence yourself. Consider that this man was 125 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: viewed as such a threat by the US government, a 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: messiah to the oppressed at the height of the Black 127 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: Power movement, that federal agents scheme to take him down, 128 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: maybe even tried to kill him. But that in prison 129 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 2: he found religion. Islam changed his name to Jamil a 130 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: Lamin and started amaster it when he got out a 131 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: whole community, creating his own domain in the middle of 132 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: what he'd once sought to destroy, doing what he thought 133 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: had to be done to keep his community alive. Does 134 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: that have the ring of destiny? The feel of God's 135 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: guiding hand. It's easy to get tied up and not 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: philosophizing about how much power we really have over our lives. 137 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: But a man Jamil talked often about the will of 138 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: a law, a sense he had that his life was 139 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: maybe predetermined or out of his control, whether it was 140 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: destiny or something else. In the late nineties, the pressure 141 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: on a Mam Jamil from the world surrounding him was building. 142 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: The FBI appeared to intensify its surveillance, and periodic gun violence, 143 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: perpetrated often by members of his own community, was practically 144 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: at his doorstep. It was near the beginning of this 145 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: period the spring of nineteen ninety eight when a Maam 146 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: Jamil spoken in the event in Washington, d c. 147 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 8: All praise is due to a Law who has created 148 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 8: man and has not left him, but indeed has given 149 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 8: him guidance as to that which is liked by the creator, 150 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 8: and he has commanded upon man struggle with consciousness and 151 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 8: awareness in his behalf. 152 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: It was a fundraiser held in a big hotel ballroom 153 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 2: to honor Quame Toure formerly Stokely Carmichael, the chairman of 154 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 2: Snick before h Rap Brown took over. Listening to a 155 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: Mam Jamil speak, you can still hear some rap. Maybe 156 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: a Mam Jimil's voice was lower and his pace slower, 157 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: but the rhythm and determination behind his words that was 158 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: the same. There must have been some ember still inside 159 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: of Ma'am Jamil, and I wonder was it being stoked 160 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: building into a flame, a fire by all the challenges 161 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: and pressure swirling around him at the time. 162 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 8: Oppression is worse than the grave, he said. It is 163 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 8: better to live and fight for a noble cause than 164 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 8: to live and die slaves. 165 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: Muslims, he said, are commanded to remind themselves and those 166 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: around them that struggle is ongoing. But there is a 167 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: higher form of struggle, an internal struggle to raise one's 168 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: level of consciousness and awareness. Deal with yourself, Struggle with yourself, 169 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: and that will emanate to the world. 170 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 8: If you can't beat yourself, you can't beat nobody else. 171 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 8: Everybody can fight, but everybody can't win. 172 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: We know so much more about him Man Jamil struggle 173 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: with the world with America's ills, that we know about 174 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: his struggle with himself. I wish I had been able 175 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: to learn more about his inner life. Was he fulfilled? 176 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 2: What brought him joy, what put him on edge. That's 177 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: why I've often wondered out loud what he was thinking, 178 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: how he was feeling during certain moments in the story. 179 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 8: Struggle has not stopped. It didn't begin in the fifties 180 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 8: and end in the seventies. The movement sense of struggle 181 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 8: which has always visited struggle. It says at the anti 182 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 8: slavery movement, Marcus god Is movement, the Black power movement, 183 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 8: civil rights movement. They come and they go, but the 184 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 8: struggle is continuous until a loss from the law has 185 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 8: righted the wrong that has come about. 186 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: Even though a Maam Jamil had given so much, risked 187 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: so much, and his external struggle to improve the lives 188 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: of black people, I don't think he believed that Allah 189 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: had righted America's wrongs, And as the twentieth century came 190 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: to an end, he seemed to be struggling with what 191 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: he had wrought. 192 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: In the West End. 193 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: I spoke to a man Pleman Elemine about this period 194 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 2: in a Maam Jamial's life. You might remember a man 195 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: Pleman from much earlier in the story. He's one of 196 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: the most prominent elders in Atlanta's African American Muslim community 197 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: in the late nineties. A man Pleman was a leader 198 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: of a massed across the city from the West End, 199 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: and he saw what he thought to be informant in 200 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil's mastered. 201 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 6: I think even he would have been surprised or he 202 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 6: was surprised to see that people were close to him 203 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 6: were working for the government. 204 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: Grappling with suspicions about informants must have been exhausting for 205 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: a Mam Jamial. He was trying to create a welcoming 206 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: community where anyone could join the mass jed all while 207 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: law enforcement was working to get people close to him. 208 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: That kind of pressure takes a serious toll. History had 209 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: already shown that when a Ma'am Jamil's mother and sister 210 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: Karama's parents succumbed amid FBI harassment in the early seventies, 211 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: and there wasn't just surveillance coming down on a ma'am Jamil. 212 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: Remember Lowndes County in the Black belt of Alabama, where 213 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil went after the shootout. He had worked 214 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: there back in the sixties and then in the nineties 215 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: he helped establish a small Muslim community in the area. 216 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: By nineteen ninety nine, a Maam Jamil had decided he 217 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: wanted the Western mass Jed and the Muslim community around 218 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: it to leave Atlanta and move to Lowndes County. 219 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 6: He presented it to his community, Hey, we're going to 220 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 6: move to Alabama, and they said no. 221 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 4: So he was. 222 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 6: Upset about that as well. Yeah, because they had never 223 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 6: said no to. 224 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: Anything for it. 225 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 6: But they say, hey, man, we're not going to the country. Man, 226 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 6: we established here and we got the family, got business, 227 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 6: got this whatever. And they had had several meetings and 228 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 6: discussions about that, and he's not telling me that. I'm 229 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 6: getting it from some of his members and everything. Hey 230 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 6: we can't go to the country. We're at lanterns, you know. 231 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 6: And so he was. He was upset about that. 232 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: I wondered if he wanted to go there and start 233 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 2: over because the West End had become so infiltrated. 234 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 4: Well, it could be, but. 235 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 6: I really think that, you know, the whole idea is 236 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 6: based in the Nation of Islam, that's based in Sunni Islam. 237 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 6: Is let's go back and if we're not going back 238 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 6: to Africa, let's go back somewhere. You know, in Nati Islam. 239 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 6: They lied to Bahama give US six six southern states, 240 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 6: and we'll do our own things. 241 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 4: That was part of that. 242 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 6: So all that's still in all of this African American Islam, 243 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 6: it's still there somewhere. 244 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 4: Let us get our separate land. 245 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 6: And we'll do our own thing, you know. So I'm 246 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 6: thinking he's just saying, hey, we're gonna try it again. 247 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: Start off new, start off fresh, with. 248 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 6: Just us on acres of land. But nobody wanted to go. 249 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: And then also in nineteen ninety nine, and Ma'am Jamil 250 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: was arrested in copp County, a suburban county north of Atlanta. 251 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: This was the arrest that ultimately led to the warrant 252 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: the Deputy Kenchin and Deputy English had with them when 253 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: they came to arrest to ma'am Jamil. 254 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: In March of two thousand, a. 255 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil was driving a Ford Explorer with a dealer 256 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: license plate. A local police officer pulled him over. The 257 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: officers had and when he asked for license and registration, 258 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil's hands were shaking. The paperwork didn't check out. 259 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: The SUV had been reported stolen, according to the officer's 260 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: testimony in court, he ordered a Maam Jamil get out 261 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: of the vehicle and as he patted him down, he 262 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: found his wallet. Inside there was a police badge. The 263 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: officer asked to ma'am Jamil if he was a police officer, 264 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: and he said yes. It was an honorary bad from 265 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: the mayor of Whitehall in Lowndes County. Years later, these 266 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: charges would be thrown out as unconstitutional, but the officer 267 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: arrested to Mamajamil for operating a stolen vehicle and impersonating 268 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: a police officer, and man Pleman said that the second 269 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: charge for impersonating a police officer, that was the one 270 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: that really bothered at Maam Jamil. 271 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 6: That's the last thing he would want to be doing 272 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 6: is playing like he's a policeman. And so I could 273 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 6: see him try to let this police officer know that 274 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 6: he's not just anybody, not just a African American who 275 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 6: you stopped and giving a ticket, that he's somebody. 276 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: You know, it was out there that a man Jamil 277 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: was pretending to be something he despised, and even with 278 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: all his authority in the West End, he was powerless 279 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: to do anything about it, powerless to shift the narrative, 280 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: restore his reputation. I'm pretty powerless before any judge he 281 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: would face in a court of law. He's somebody, a man, 282 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: Pleman said, but only to a small number of people 283 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: who don't have much political power in the first place. 284 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 6: A couple occasions that I saw him in the midst 285 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 6: of those things, he was very irritable and upset about 286 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 6: what was going on. And I had never seen him 287 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 6: like that before. You know, it was always hey, what 288 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 6: can I do for you? What do you need anything? 289 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 6: You know, there's always his demeanor that he was ready 290 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 6: to ass issue whatever you needed or whatever. But in 291 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 6: the bits of that, it was like, yeah, just complaining 292 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 6: about these people, these people, man, And you know, how 293 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 6: can anybody think that I want to be a police 294 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 6: be a policeman? You know, that's that's the last thing, 295 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 6: my man. I'm trying to show somebody I'm a police officer, 296 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 6: impersonate a police office. 297 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 2: I heard from other people that a Man Jamil's demeanor 298 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: changed during this time. People from the West End who 299 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 2: I trust but who didn't want to say it on 300 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: the record. They told me that they believe that man 301 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: Jamil shot those deputies, that something in him seemed to 302 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: have caught fire and then the Friday jun my services 303 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 2: at the mask. Yet he kept saying I'm gonna. 304 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: Get me one. 305 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: I'm gonna get me one, and no one knew what he. 306 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 4: Was talking about. 307 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: After Damien Gordon, the man who owned the house next 308 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: to the mash Jed in the West End, told Johnny 309 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: and me that he saw two people get into the 310 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: car and drive off. After the shootout, we went to 311 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: speak with Abdusa mat Jahad, the seventeen year old who 312 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: was inside the mass Jed that night. Abdusa Matt told 313 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: me that a lawyer came and questioned him in the 314 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: months after the shootout, but that since then I was 315 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: the first person in all these years to really ask. 316 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: Him about it. 317 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: So, yeah, what we want to do is go over 318 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: that night, just kind of slow it down from the beginning, 319 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: figure out. 320 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 7: What you remember, what you really remember, so. 321 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: You are in the mask shit, Yeah, in the mass hit. 322 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 9: After they had to been not the because no other prayer. 323 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: Was going on after that. 324 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 2: After the Easterer prayer, the last prayer of the day 325 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: about remembers being tutored by a math. 326 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 3: Teacher who lived in the community. 327 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: When they heard gunfire outside the tutor jumped on top 328 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: of a Dusamat. They laid motionless on the floor. I 329 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: tried to reach that tutor, but I didn't hear back 330 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 2: from him. When the gunfire stopped, a different man, not 331 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: the tutor, he dragged Abdussimat into a closet and told 332 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: him to stay there. That man his Muslim name was Nigell, 333 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: and Abdusamat told us that Nigell was carrying a gun. 334 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 9: And it wasn't like a comer right, It was a 335 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 9: Stifer type rifle. It was a rifle that who were 336 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 9: used to kill a deer or snipe some kind of 337 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 9: hot power, hot collar of a rifle. 338 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: While Abdusamat was still in the closet, he heard what 339 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: he thought was Nigeal leaving the mast Git. Then there 340 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: was more gunfire outside, and when it stopped, Abdusamat left 341 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 2: the closet and looked out the window. He saw Nigel 342 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: standing near Deputy English, who was lying in the field 343 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: next to the mass Jit bleeding. Abdusamat heard Nigel yell out, hey, 344 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: there's one over here, like he was. 345 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: Letting someone know. The English was lying there. 346 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: Abduso Ount isn't clear who Nigel was speaking to. It 347 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: could have been a man Jimial or other people from 348 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 2: the mass Jed, or it could have been someone in 349 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: law enforcement who was not one of the deputies but 350 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: had already arrived at the scene. But if Nigel was 351 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: yelling out to some cops, that would seemed to be 352 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: a death wish. 353 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 3: He's standing there holding a high powered rifle. They didn't 354 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 3: even shoot him. Les stick them up. 355 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 10: That is very silly, you get saying if you ran 356 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 10: if a shooting that happened, you ran out with a rifle, 357 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 10: you would be shot. That's his way. 358 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 3: It was black. Yeah. 359 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: After Abdusamat heard Nigell call out, he saw him come 360 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: back into the mass Jed and Nigel put his gun 361 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: away somewhere in the closet. Abdusamat thinks then Nigell was gone. 362 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 3: That was it. He disappeared. He never came back in 363 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: the mask ged he but before that he was a regular. 364 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 10: Before that, he was a regular. He had just came 365 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 10: to the mean. Nobody really know much about him. 366 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: Nigel had shown up in the Western community about three 367 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 2: years earlier. He took care of the mass Jed grounds 368 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: didn't have another job at the time, and he was 369 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: living in the masjed. 370 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 3: That wasn't so unusual. 371 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: Men would sometimes stay there when they were passing through 372 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: or temporarily homeless. Abdusamat never got any weird vibe from Nigell, 373 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: but he said there was speculation in the community that 374 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: he was an informant. Abdusamat's dad, who's now deceased, he 375 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: was among those skeptical of Nigell. 376 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 3: Assuming Nigell was. 377 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: There and he had a rifle with him, what did 378 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: he do after he put Abdusamat in the closet and 379 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 2: exited the masjed. It's possible, maybe even likely, that he 380 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: fired at day deputies. The kind of rifle that Abdusamat 381 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: described Nigel as carrying. It could have shot two two 382 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: three caliber rounds like the dozens found at the scene. 383 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: If Nigel did fire at the deputies, it could mean 384 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: that a maam Jimial wasn't responsible for the injury to 385 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: English or the death of Kenchin. A ma'am Jimil's lawyers 386 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 2: called Nigel to testify at the trial. He said he 387 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 2: was inside the mast jed with abdusamat At the time 388 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: of the shooting, and they laid on the floor until 389 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 2: all the shooting stopped. Then Nigil said he looked out 390 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: the window and saw English lying in the grass. While 391 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: Abdusamat was still inside. Nigil walked out and he ran 392 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: into two officers who had already arrived at the scene. 393 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 2: The officers asked if anybody was inside. During his testimony, 394 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: Nigel admitted he'd lie to the officers and said no 395 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: because he was trying to protect Abdusamat. The officers turned 396 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: around and didn't enter the mass jed. The story seems 397 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: odd to me. If Nigel was indeed an FBI informant, 398 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: the defense in the prosecution might not know. I read 399 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 2: through a congressional report about the FBI's use of murderers 400 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: as informants, which came out around the time of a 401 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: mam Jamil's trial. It said that federal agents had allowed 402 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: informants to perjure themselves, and that they kept evidence from 403 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: defendants and prosecutors and what the committee called to quote 404 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 2: ends justify the means approach. What if Nigel was both 405 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 2: a shooter and an informant, If in the dark of 406 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: night he came out firing before he could make out 407 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: what was really happening. How totally crazy would that be 408 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: that an informant was potentially involved in the murder of 409 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: a local law enforcement officer, that the end justify the means. 410 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: Pursuit of a mamm Jamil was so intense that law 411 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: enforcement ended up hurting itself in its efforts to get him. 412 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: These are the things we were thinking about when we 413 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: started looking for Nigeal. I felt excited, to be honest 414 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: about the prospect of getting to the bottom of the 415 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: West End and the FBI secrets. Going under an underpass 416 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 2: here it looks like a decent neighborhood, at. 417 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 4: Least from where we were coming from. There is a 418 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 4: little bit of a transition happening. 419 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: Nigell is still alive, and my producer Johnny and I 420 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: found an address for his wife in Augusta, Georgia, a 421 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: few hours outside Atlanta. And Gill doesn't appear to be 422 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: practicing the slam anymore. And he's going by his giving 423 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: name again, George Wilson. I'll call him that from here 424 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: on out. Our plan was to knock on the door 425 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 2: and ask George Wilson what he remembers from the night 426 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: of the shootout. 427 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 3: This was not the safest door. 428 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: Knock I've ever done. If this guy had shot a 429 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: cop and kept it secret for twenty years, I didn't 430 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: exactly expect him to invite me in for coffee, but 431 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: I hoped he was old, settled into domestic life, a 432 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: changed man. That's how he looted his Facebook photo, happy 433 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: and fat. I thought maybe we'd get an eruption of self. 434 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 3: Pity or shame, but not rage. 435 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: When Johnny and I pulled up to the address, it 436 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: looked like army barracks at first, but it was actually 437 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: part of a public housing complex. The apartments were spread 438 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: out over a couple of blocks, one story side by side, duplexes, 439 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 2: red brick with black shingles. We parked in a lot 440 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 2: on the backside of the apartment we thought belonged to 441 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: Wilson's wife. There was laundry out on the line, a 442 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 2: good sign someone was home. 443 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 3: I'm going to approach with my friendliest face. 444 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: We got out and walked around to the front, but 445 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 2: after getting a good look at the place, decided it 446 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: was too risky to even knock. 447 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: So we're back in the car now. There was a 448 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: sign on the door. 449 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 4: Handwritten on a piece of notebook paper that said this 450 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 4: means you don't knock, don't approach, no exceptions. 451 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: Smile your own camera, which is pretty clear, a pretty 452 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: clear sign that they don't want to see any strangers. 453 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: It makes me. 454 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 4: Wonder, I mean, who puts the signlight that on the door. 455 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: We'd driven too far to turn right back around. Someone 456 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: had to come out sooner or later to get that 457 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: laundry drying on the line, So a stakeout seemed like 458 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: the best move. But we needed to grab a bite 459 00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: to eat if we were going to sit in the 460 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: car for hours. After a quick lunch, When we pulled 461 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: back up on the complex, a woman was standing in 462 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: the front yard. I whipped the car around like iced 463 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: tea in a Law and Order episode or something. We 464 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: jumped out. Johnny kept his microphone in his bag, definitely 465 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: didn't want to freak anybody out. He recorded what happened 466 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: next on his phone, so the quality is barely good 467 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: enough to play for you. Oh, I'm so sorry, I've 468 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 2: met I don't know how to have. The woman was 469 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: George Wilson's wife. Her name is Darlene goes By d. 470 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: I told her rather nervously that we were looking for 471 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: George Wilson, who might know some things about a murder 472 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: that happened in Atlanta twenty years ago. She asked me 473 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: to repeat myself, and I got the words out again. Then, 474 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: without hearing anything more, she said, he's probably the one 475 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: who did it. Turn turned out Wilson wasn't happy in 476 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: fat and enjoying old age. 477 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: She said he was in jail. He had been charged 478 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 3: with murder. 479 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: One day in the winter of twenty twenty one, Dee 480 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: and her daughter, Wilson's stepdaughter, were watching television in their 481 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 2: home in Augusta. Wilson got upset with his wife or 482 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: for something he'd accused her of, and one of the 483 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: stepdaughters to leave the apartment, but Dee's daughters stuck around 484 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 2: to protect her. 485 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: Mom got between the two. 486 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: Actually, things got heeded, and he stabbed her in the chest, 487 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 2: killed her right there, a few feet from where we 488 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: were standing. She died in Dee's arms. D told us 489 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: that Wilson first lived in New York. He was sent 490 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: to Atlanta for prison, and he stuck around when he 491 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: got out. That must have been when he joined the 492 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: Master d d didn't know anything about Wilson being an informant, 493 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: but she said he did have aliases and other addresses 494 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: and that he was paranoid. Asked because she was talking 495 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: to and if she was working for someone and woke 496 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night saying, I didn't 497 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: do it. I didn't bother that lady. I didn't touch her. 498 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 8: Okay, okay, what we're going to let you go? 499 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you anything. D spoke to us for about 500 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: twenty minutes before we got back into the car. I'm 501 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: happy that we didn't knock on the door and he 502 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: was there, Like this dude seems kind of scary. 503 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 7: Like clearly there's clearly clearly he's being haunted by things. 504 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 7: But if he was. 505 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 11: Talking to the FBI, what a volatile person for them 506 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 11: to be involved with. I mean, it's the same as 507 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 11: it's the same as Shahid, What a volatile person for them. 508 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,479 Speaker 4: To be involved with? 509 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 7: How are you feeling? I feel bad for that woman, 510 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 7: you know, Like that seemed awful. Like if we just 511 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 7: keep going on this, are we just going to get 512 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 7: to darker and darker shit. 513 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: Or what I mean? 514 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 7: This is dark, This is a dark place. This is 515 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 7: the darkest that it's found like, I don't think that 516 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 7: was in our list of things that are possibly going 517 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 7: on no place. I mean, she was really sweet given everything. 518 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 3: Yeah wow. 519 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: I wrote to George Wilson of the jail where he's 520 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 2: being held in Augusta, but I never heard anything back 521 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: since we met his wife that day. Wilson has been 522 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: convicted and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Here's 523 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: what I believe happened. The night of the shootout in 524 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: the West End. The deputies pulled up in front of 525 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jimiale's black Mercedes, and after a brief exchange of works, 526 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: he pulled a semi automatic rifle from under his throb 527 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: and letter rip. I know y'all going to get me 528 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: sooner or later, but I'm going to get me one. 529 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: You can believe that. That's what a Mam Jamil used 530 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: to say to cops in his days. 531 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: Is rat Brown. 532 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: He wrote it in his autobiography, and those were the 533 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: words folks in the Weston mass she had heard him 534 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: saying in the days before the shootout, I'm going to 535 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: get me one. I believe that's how Mam Jamil thought 536 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,239 Speaker 2: he was going to go out defending himself in his 537 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: community in a blaze of martyrdom, that he'd rather die 538 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: than go back to prison, that he'd given this messed 539 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: up world everything he had. I believe when Mam Jamil 540 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: shot those deputies, but by some miracle he survived. The 541 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: whole neighborhood could hear the gunfire. All the brothers who 542 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: went to the mass died, who ran toward action, not 543 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: away from it. Someone who wanted to protect the AmAm 544 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: appeared and started shooting two. This was the man that witnessed. 545 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: Damian Gordon saw from across the way the second person 546 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: to get in the black Mercedes. 547 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 3: Whoever it was loved. 548 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: The Ymam and the AmAm loved him. They drove off together, 549 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: keeping what happened secret until this day. Meanwhile, before or 550 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: after they left, George Wilson Nigel at the time he 551 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: came out of the mass yard and started shooting two. 552 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: In the months I've been working on this podcast, I've 553 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: been in touch with AmAm Jamil's wife Karima, his son Kyrie, 554 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: and his leapellate lawyer. None of them agreed to an interview. 555 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: We sent each of them a list of questions, but 556 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: they didn't send us answers. When I wrote to a 557 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:57,239 Speaker 2: Mam Jamil in prison, I never heard back. As far 558 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: as we know, the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit is 559 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: still reviewing the prosecution of a Mam Jamil, at least technically. 560 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: But the DA's office didn't respond to our questions either, 561 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: and its silence would seem to suggest that it hasn't 562 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: found enough evidence to overturn the conviction. I know a 563 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: lot of AmAm Jamil supporters will never believe he did it, 564 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: and I hear their arguments that Mam Jamil didn't have 565 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: gray eyes and a Mama Jamil hadn't been shot like 566 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 2: Deputy English said he had. There's not a reliable scientific 567 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: link between the bullets that killed Deputy Kenchin and the 568 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: guns found near Maam Jamil in the woods in Alabama. 569 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: There are circumstantial evidence that points to a potential conspiracy 570 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: to plant the weapons in the woods, including the lack 571 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: of fingerprints. Do I think I Maam Jamil got a 572 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: fair trial. I don't know, Probably not, but I can't 573 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: accept the innocent's arguments. We couldn't corroborate Otis Jackson's story. 574 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: He confessed under oath, but he's also recancet his confession 575 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 2: multiple times, and he's apparently told a version of events 576 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: that's implausible. Then there's the fact that a Maam Jamil's 577 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: Mercedes was shot up and found close to where he 578 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 2: was hiding out in Alabama, and the stuff that folks 579 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: heard him saying in the mass It it echoed an 580 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: old willingness to confront cops with violence. Some people in 581 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 2: the West End, people who were in the neighborhood that night, 582 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: they know what happened, but for lots of reasons, they've 583 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 2: kept quiet. I say all this with a prayer in 584 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: mind that a Maam Jamil used to recite when he 585 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: addressed the public. I ask a lot to guide my 586 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: heart and guide my tongue. I seek refuge in a 587 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 2: law from misleading and being misled, from betraying and being 588 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: betrayed into ignorance by others. To me, it's a prayer 589 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: that says I reached these conclusions humbly, and I'll add 590 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: for Muslims in Atlanta especially, they're my conclusions, not my family. 591 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: One of the reasons I don't feel comfortable keeping all 592 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 2: of this inside is that this story has shown me 593 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: how things tend to ripple. The violence of the shootout 594 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: didn't stop that night. George Wilson, the guy whose house 595 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: we staked out in Augusta, it apparently stuck with him 596 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: for the last twenty years, along with the other shit 597 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 2: like Rodham I bet, and a few years ago he exploded, 598 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: hurting people miles away from the mast did in the 599 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: West End. After investigating all the death and destruction, I 600 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: was starting to feel ripples from the violence myself, just 601 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: thinking about this stuff all the time, feeling it in 602 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: a way that people around me could feel. 603 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: I had had enough. 604 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: And I needed to find a way to make it 605 00:35:50,280 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: all stop. During the long stretch it took to finish 606 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 2: this story, I became a father. A baby came into 607 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 2: this world, fell right into my hands. But amid all 608 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 2: the joy and learning and growth, dark thoughts would knock 609 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: around my head, images of people at their worst. I 610 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: was trying to get to know this new human being, 611 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 2: trying to make him smile or to just be attentive, 612 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: and George Wilson or the serial killer Shahid ab du 613 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: Ahman would pop into my head. 614 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 3: It was not a good feeling. 615 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: A new life, in contrast to some of the lives 616 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: that have come across in this story, you can't help 617 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: but wonder where did people go so wrong? 618 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 3: And how do you steer a kid clear of that? 619 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: We know a man Jimil believed in fate, that maybe 620 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: his death to me was to be sacrificed in the 621 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: face of deep social problems. Some would have us believe 622 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 2: that a man Jamial is simply evil. Others, maybe the 623 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: most nihilist of all, would say, we simply live in 624 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 2: an ugly world without meaning, deal with it. But none 625 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: of those views are acceptable to me. When I was younger, 626 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: after I followed my family into the faith of Islam, 627 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: I realized that I'm totally free to reimagine what I 628 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: believe in to find my own path. Ever since then, 629 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: journalism has been one of the main ways I've explored 630 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: the world how I figured out what's what. But after 631 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: going as far as I could with journalism in this story, 632 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 2: with investigative reporting, I began to look for deeper meaning. 633 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: I went back to a wise man, a man Pleman Elmine, 634 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 2: the peer of a Man Jamil, Islamic elder in Atlanta. 635 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: I asked him a question that I could hardly articulate. 636 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: It felt so abstract do we really have control over 637 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: our own destiny in the face of what can seem 638 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: like insurmountable forces operating in the world around us. I 639 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 2: was thinking about to what extent racial oppression in America 640 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: was responsible for the creation of a man Jamil and 641 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 2: of h Rap Brown, Like, does a person coming into 642 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 2: this world who to test those things? Can they really thrive? 643 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 6: Majority of Muslims, you know, understand or believe that. And 644 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 6: it's it's correct in the sense that the will of 645 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 6: a law overrides everything. 646 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. 647 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that comes off of Muslim's tongue 648 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: more than anything. 649 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 3: Else is in shadlah. 650 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 6: And in the verse in Christ said, don't say you 651 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 6: will do anything without saying and inshall lah, because you 652 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 6: know the only way you're gonna be able to do 653 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 6: anything a lit has permitted. 654 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 4: Okay, But what. 655 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 6: They overlook is that Allah has willed that we have choice, 656 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 6: and Allah has wield that we get the benefits or 657 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 6: the punishments for our choices. That's that's the will of 658 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 6: a law. 659 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: A man pleman was saying that life is a series 660 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: of choices, and every choice changes our character, or is 661 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 2: a man cleman put it, Every choice moves our soul 662 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 2: closer to good or evil. We're in a constant state 663 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 2: of becoming and our destiny is not fixed, he said, 664 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: like some Muslims would have us believe, But it's tied 665 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 2: to our character, to our soul. The choices we make 666 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 2: determine what happens to us in this life. Me you 667 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 2: a man jamil anyone. A man Pleaman didn't want to 668 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 2: talk about the details of the shootout in the West End. 669 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 2: We agreed to that before our interview, but he did 670 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 2: talk about justice. 671 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 6: Our deeds catch up with us. And sometimes people are 672 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 6: pretty miserable, but they are good people and they've done good. 673 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 6: Pretty soon the good deeds will catch up with them 674 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 6: and they'll be all right. But the same things. Sometimes 675 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 6: people have corrupt deeds and it might be might look 676 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 6: like everything's going good with him, but sooner or later 677 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 6: those deeds will track them down. 678 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 2: I could agree with a lot of what a Man 679 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: Pleman said, like I could relate on an instinctual level, 680 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 2: independent of theology or doctrine. 681 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 3: We have power over our. 682 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 2: Lives, and in essence, what goes around comes around. Lots 683 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 2: of different life philosophies will tell you that, But that 684 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 2: still left me wanting. I didn't come all this way 685 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 2: to say that a man who went through things that 686 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 2: I never have, who was already being punished for his actions, 687 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 2: that he should have made better choices. I don't think 688 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 2: I was called to this story to leave it there. 689 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 2: I was still stuck on whether human beings could ever 690 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: break these cycles of violence, of American violence. How are 691 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: we supposed to stop these downward spirals, especially oppressed people 692 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 2: who are under attack. I believe that beneath everything else, 693 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 2: a man Jamil Hrap Brown. The man's intention was to 694 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 2: look out for his people, for his family and community. 695 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: Now that I'm a father, I can relate to that 696 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 2: more than ever. So I kept searching. I found a 697 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 2: clue in an unexpected place, Rodney Brown's book, Rodney the 698 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 2: former drug dealer in the Way, who knew Shahid ab 699 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 2: du Rahman and many of the people Shahid killed. I 700 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 2: went back to Rodney to talk to him. You have 701 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: this line in your book that you say a lot 702 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 2: of times, thoughts become things. 703 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 3: Thoughts become things. 704 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 4: What do you mean by that? 705 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 12: Your thoughts control everything around you. You're gonna get what 706 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 12: you're looking for, That's what you're thinking. 707 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 2: About Rodney, over the course of his life, became aware 708 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 2: of power he has to control the world around him 709 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 2: with stories. If a man, Jermiale was ultimately battered and 710 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: knocked by the stories people told. Rodney learned something different. 711 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,240 Speaker 2: But like when he was young, Rodney used to admire 712 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 2: this drug dealer named Willie, how cool he looked the 713 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: cars he drove. 714 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 12: I just used to imagine myself doing the same thing, 715 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 12: and one day it came true, you know what I mean. 716 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 12: So I used to just picture it and dream about it, 717 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 12: picture it and dream about it, and bam, when I 718 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 12: should have been pitched myself. Being a lawyer or a doctor, 719 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 12: A kind of got a scroll power with bringing stuff 720 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 12: to life. 721 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 4: I do. 722 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 12: I'm gifted like that. 723 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 2: But it took Rodney a long time to realize what 724 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,720 Speaker 2: all that dreaming was doing. In prison, he started writing 725 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 2: his book about his life, about the violence he had 726 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: experienced and the people close to him who he had lost. 727 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: A psychologist had recommended it, said it would help him 728 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,800 Speaker 2: to get everything out. It did help, and he's planning 729 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 2: to write another one. He's also working on a documentary 730 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: about the West End murders. Rodney doesn't have a perfect life. 731 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 2: He doesn't have it easy, nor has he been able 732 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 2: to totally set aside the shit that used to haunt 733 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 2: him like he still wonders whether he should have killed 734 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,839 Speaker 2: Shahid ab du Rahman in the nineties, whether that would 735 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 2: have saved the lives of many of us friends in 736 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 2: the life of Deputy Kinchen too. But then he rains 737 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 2: that in tries to imagine something different. What's what's Rodney 738 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 2: doing in five years? 739 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 12: Maybe I can help some kids and tell them some 740 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 12: of the stuff that you know to keep them going 741 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 12: the same road. And I done went man, because a 742 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 12: lot of them an' gonna end up like this. Look, 743 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 12: look I'm into my homeboys. Ain't gonna be sitting behind 744 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 12: on this. They said it's old with they already did, 745 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 12: and but a few people gonna make it out. 746 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: And then Rodney turned things around on me. Maybe he 747 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 2: could tell that I had come to him for help 748 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 2: trying to get an answer. 749 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 3: I want to know, what's what's your purpose? 750 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 8: Y'all? 751 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 12: Ever found what's your purpose gonna be? 752 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 4: About this? 753 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 2: You've heard me say often in the Mythology surrounding a 754 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 2: Man Jamil that when people believe in something, whether fact 755 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 2: or fiction. It has a way of becoming real. I 756 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 2: think there's a broader truth there too. It's a scary one, 757 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 2: but there's also a freedom, a freedom to imagine. I 758 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 2: imagine that Deputy Ricky Kenchin and all the folks who 759 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 2: lost their lives in the West End, that they're still 760 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 2: with us, quite present, but just off to the side, 761 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 2: watching the rest of our lives unfold like some kind 762 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 2: of drama, a passion play, and we're involved in a 763 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 2: much larger production as writers, actors, and directors about the consequences, 764 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 2: the merits, the usefulness of violence and Hubert Gerald Brown 765 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 2: rap and ma'am gimil He drew a tough role in 766 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 2: this show, a countercultural hero the likes of which we 767 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 2: seldom see, who reveals American violent for what it really is, 768 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 2: and through his own life, shows how wrong you can go. 769 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 3: The Legend of a Man Jamil is a decade long drama. 770 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 2: While the closing curtain, every character, me and you too, 771 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 2: realizes we are way bigger than we think we are. 772 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 2: We have more power than we think to change history. 773 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 3: The folks who lost. 774 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 2: Their lives are waiting for us in the wings, waiting 775 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,879 Speaker 2: for us to solve this problem. Just like a man 776 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 2: Jamil when he leaves this earth, We'll be rooting for 777 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 2: us from the audience. 778 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 3: What's a stronger. 779 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 2: Weapon than an fourteen semi automatic rifle or a firebomb? 780 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 3: Storytelling the legend of a Maam Jamil. 781 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 2: Because shared stories change what we care about, what we're 782 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 2: willing to tolerate. Rodney said, it thoughts become things. There 783 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 2: are stories other than this one coming. I'm told AmAm 784 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 2: Jamil's son, Kyrie, is working on a documentary. A scholar 785 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 2: has said he's working on a biography about the man. 786 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 2: Rodney has this stuff and the works too investigative reporters, 787 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 2: true crime podcasters. There's way more to learn about the 788 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 2: FBI's role in all of this. But this story that 789 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 2: I've just told, I'm holding on to it, and if 790 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 2: my son ever asks me about violence in America, it's 791 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 2: the story I'm going to share with him. Radical is 792 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 2: a production of Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. 793 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 3: Radical was reported. 794 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 2: And written by Johnny Coaffman and me Mossy Secret. Johnny 795 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 2: Coffin is our senior producer. Sheba Joseph is our associate producer. 796 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 2: Editing by Eric Benson, Johnny Coffin, Emily Martinez and Matt Cher. 797 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz, Kaylin Lynch and Layla Dos. 798 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 2: Original music by Kyle Murdoch and by Ray Murray of 799 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 2: Organized Noise. Sound design and mixing by Kevin Seaman. Recording 800 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 2: by Ewan Leed Tremwen and Sheba Joseph. Campside Media's operations 801 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 2: team is Doug Slaywan, Ashley Warren, Elijah Papes, Destiny Dingle, 802 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 2: and Sabina Merra. The executive producers at Campside Media are 803 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 2: Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher. For 804 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 2: Tenderfoot TV, executive producers. 805 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 3: Are Donald all Right and Payne Lindsay. The executive producers at. 806 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with additional 807 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 2: support from Trevor Young. Special thanks to the Georgia First 808 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 2: Amendment Foundation. Emily Roberts, Christy Schwartz, Wendell Paris, Charles Rambo, 809 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:25,360 Speaker 2: Deb Golden, Mark Picard, Aquille Secret, Cina Nicholson and Michael Jerman.