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Speaker 1: Welcome to a Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're

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Speaker 1: scheming how to get Billy Jean King to post for

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Speaker 1: a photo showing the Good Game podcast playing on her phone.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, April second, and on today's show will be

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Speaker 1: joined by Jane McManus, author, NYU professor and editor of

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Speaker 1: the Year's Best Sports Writing twenty twenty four. We caught

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Speaker 1: up with her last week right after Juju Watkins unfortunate injury,

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Speaker 1: and we chopped it up about her new book, The

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Speaker 1: Fast Track Inside the Surging Business of Women's Sports. We

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Speaker 1: got into our organizations need to stop using the men's

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Speaker 1: formula for the women's game, how gatekeepers have impacted the

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Speaker 1: growth of women's sports, and her warning for those that

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Speaker 1: think the future trajectory of women's sports is unquestionably up.

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Speaker 1: That conversation's coming up.

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Speaker 2: Right after this joining us now.

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Speaker 1: She's the author of the new book The Fast Track

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Speaker 1: Inside the Surging Business of Women's Sports, the editor of

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Speaker 1: the Year's Best Sports Writing twenty twenty four, and NYU professor,

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Speaker 1: and one of the greatest ESPN radio show that's ever existed,

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Speaker 1: The Trifecta on the roller derby tracks. She went by

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Speaker 1: Leslie e Visceit, but we call her Jane. It's Jane McManus.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, Jane.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. Pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so excited to have you back now that

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Speaker 1: the book is actually out and talk about so many things.

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Speaker 1: But first, you're kind of joining us at an interesting time,

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Speaker 1: and since you have this perspective having written about women's

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Speaker 1: sports for the last however long that book.

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Speaker 2: Took a couple months, thirty years, thirty years.

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Speaker 1: You're joining us right in the midst of this NCAA

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Speaker 1: basketball tournament, about a year after the true explosion in

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Speaker 1: interest due to the Angel Resoursus Kaitlin Clark rivalry.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, it was building for years, but last year saw

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Speaker 2: this monumental leap. And I wonder what.

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Speaker 1: Some of the biggest shifts you've noticed since last year's tourney,

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Speaker 1: whether that's through the WNBA season, unrivaled, now back into

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Speaker 1: tourney time again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, so many places to go with that. The

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Speaker 4: first thing I would say is there's just been an

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Speaker 4: explosion in professional leagues for women. I mean, I think

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Speaker 4: every single sport that's been invented in maybe some that

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Speaker 4: haven't are planning pro leagues right now, is which is

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Speaker 4: great in that there's a lot of enthusiasm and they're

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Speaker 4: able to work up startup cash for those I think

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Speaker 4: it will make a more crowded marketplace. So we'll see

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Speaker 4: how those all things, you know, pan out.

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Speaker 3: That's number one. Number two will be in just my.

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Speaker 4: Game day experience watching the tournament, more games on ABC.

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Speaker 3: Bumper coverage.

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Speaker 4: We get that fantastic studio trio of Shane McKay and

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Speaker 4: Andrea Carter and El Duncan far longer now. I don't

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Speaker 4: know why they haven't turned that into a weekly show,

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Speaker 4: because I think that they are that level. They are

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Speaker 4: lightning in a bottle. They should get they should get

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Speaker 4: more platform. But I'm getting my fill now. I get

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Speaker 4: to see them a lot. And I also think every

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Speaker 4: single advertisement. It used to be that you would watch

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Speaker 4: women's games and there would be ads featuring men's teams,

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Speaker 4: But now you're watching women's games and there are ads

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Speaker 4: featuring women team. You know, Don Staley in a weird

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Speaker 4: one where the duck comes in in duck dunks, you know,

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Speaker 4: where I'm kind of like, okay, all right, that's that's

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Speaker 4: Andrea Carter's in that one too, So I'm you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm not opposed to it. I'm just kind of confused

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Speaker 4: by it. But I'm really glad that it's there. So

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Speaker 4: that would be the other thing is I would say,

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Speaker 4: like it is that suite of programming around the game

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Speaker 4: that we've you know, you and I Sarah have been

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Speaker 4: waiting for for so long, you know, back in the

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Speaker 4: day when we could only talk about you know, one

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Speaker 4: or two women's topics per show. You know, now we're

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Speaker 4: we're in a completely different time and it feels great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what still needs to be improved upon, I know

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Speaker 1: a lot, But like what comes to mind first?

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Speaker 3: I think I think broadcast deals.

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Speaker 4: I think some of these leagues, you know, they're they're

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Speaker 4: negotiating for broadcast deals. I think their property is are

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Speaker 4: probably worth a little bit more than they're getting paid for.

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Speaker 4: Right now, the landscape is pretty chaotic because you can't

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Speaker 4: just have a straight up, you know deal with ESPN.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be street and then some kind of

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Speaker 4: you know, scripts or some kind of unconventional way watching,

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Speaker 4: and then and then hopefully a couple of national games

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Speaker 4: as well. So I think that experience could be improved

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Speaker 4: a little bit. And I also think just overall sports

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Speaker 4: discussions could bear with a little bit more touching into it.

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Speaker 4: Like I was a little surprised I turned on lots

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Speaker 4: of sports talk today as I was on the car,

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Speaker 4: didn't hear a ton about Juju Watkins, which is the

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Speaker 4: biggest story in my mind right now. So I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, that would be a place where it could

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Speaker 4: be improved.

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Speaker 1: You know, when we dig into the missed economic opportunity

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Speaker 1: that went on for decades in the women's tournament. This

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Speaker 1: was unearthed by the independent investigation into the NC DOUBLEA

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Speaker 1: TV rights a few years ago, where we found out

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Speaker 1: it was worth you know, sixty million a year with

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Speaker 1: upwards of one hundred and twenty million a year, and

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Speaker 1: instead it was not materially renegotiated for like decades and

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Speaker 1: they were losing money like they were. They were setting

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Speaker 1: it up as if it was a money loser every year.

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Speaker 1: When we knew that it was this massive opportunity, where

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Speaker 1: do you point the finger for that? Was that solely

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Speaker 1: on the NC DOUBLEA or are there other pieces that

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Speaker 1: contributed to how delayed this massive growth is and could

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Speaker 1: have come so much earlier.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to use an analogy for this.

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Speaker 4: You know how sometimes when you're walking down the street,

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Speaker 4: like you're communicating to people all the time, like where

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Speaker 4: you're gonna walk in the sidebark by, where you're looking,

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Speaker 4: And so that's how you can tell, Well, I think

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Speaker 4: the NC double A and US Soccer as well, where

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Speaker 4: are they looking? They're looking at what the ceiling is

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Speaker 4: for the men's property. They're not looking at the women's property.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, they didn't have separate the nstable

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Speaker 4: a part of that report. They didn't have a separate

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Speaker 4: staff to market those games, to market the opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Et cetera.

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Speaker 4: And when you don't even have that infrastructure, I mean

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Speaker 4: even the WNBA. Now, I mean they're building it up

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Speaker 4: a lot, but three four years ago they didn't have

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Speaker 4: like a.

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Speaker 3: Separate, fully formed front office for the WNBA.

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Speaker 4: So I mean, again, where are you looking for opportunities?

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Speaker 4: US Soccer was definitely looking for the men to get

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Speaker 4: a couple more rounds in World Cup. They were not

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Speaker 4: looking for the women to win the gold again. And

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Speaker 4: so I just think it is like, what are you

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Speaker 4: focused on and what do you care about as an

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Speaker 4: organization and what is your co operating principle. If you're

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Speaker 4: in leadership, you hear this all the time. And for

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Speaker 4: those leagues, it has always been about the men's side

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Speaker 4: of the property in the brand, and so you know

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Speaker 4: when that's the case, that's what you're going to see. Sarah,

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Speaker 4: I'm dying to know what do you think on this

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Speaker 4: front because you have a front row seat to it

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Speaker 4: too well.

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Speaker 1: I think your point is a great one in your

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Speaker 1: analogy works for both the nc DOUBLEA, but then also

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Speaker 1: the schools participating. If you prioritize your men's team over

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Speaker 1: your women's you're only going to fight so hard even

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Speaker 1: if you recognize what a missed opportunity the NCUBLEA is

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Speaker 1: putting forth. Same goes for the economic units, right the

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Speaker 1: money units that now women's teams get paid their conference

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Speaker 1: gets paid when they do well in the tournament.

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Speaker 2: That did not exist until this year.

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Speaker 1: So that was a disincentive for teams to spend money

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Speaker 1: on their women's program because they wouldn't get that money

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Speaker 1: back from the NCAA. They would get it in ticket

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Speaker 1: sales and merchandise and things like that. There was a

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Speaker 1: reason to invest, but it was not pushed the way

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Speaker 1: it was on the men's side. So yes, I blame

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Speaker 1: the NC DOUBLEA. They are the most complicit in that issue,

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Speaker 1: but also of the schools and the larger societal affect

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Speaker 1: toward women's sports and the potential that they had contributed

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Speaker 1: to us waiting such a long time before we finally

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Speaker 1: realized how to take advantage. But that does get us

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Speaker 1: to where we are now. There's so much more excitement

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Speaker 1: around this year's tournament, the storylines, the rivalries, the parodies

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Speaker 1: across the space. How does it compare this year to

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Speaker 1: your expectations for the year after Caitlin Clark graduated.

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Speaker 3: I think it's better the regular season games.

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Speaker 4: ESPN reported that their regular season women's games did better

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Speaker 4: than ever at any other point in time, So I

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Speaker 4: think you're kind of seeing that the wave continues. I

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Speaker 4: should note that I am coming to you live from stores,

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Speaker 4: Connecticut right now, and it's interesting to me because I've

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Speaker 4: been talking to some colleges around the country and everywhere

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Speaker 4: I go, you know, that is the story, the story

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Speaker 4: of the inequity even now a lot of these different schools.

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Speaker 3: But I'm going to speak at you count.

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Speaker 4: Tonight, which is a place where for the last thirty

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Speaker 4: years there has been some level of parody. There's certainly

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Speaker 4: been people who care deeply about the women's teams here

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Speaker 4: at the school, and so I'm wondering how, you know,

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Speaker 4: the conversation is different when you have I mean, is

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Speaker 4: are schools now becoming more like Yukon? I mean, I've

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Speaker 4: certainly heard of some interesting things like the golden ticket

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Speaker 4: quote unquote it perdue, which means that if you want,

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Speaker 4: if you're a student and you want to get a

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Speaker 4: ticket to a men's game, you get a ticket to

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Speaker 4: a women's game, and you have to attend that game

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Speaker 4: before you can attend the men's game, which is a

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Speaker 4: way of giving, yeah, a way of communicating institutional priorities.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that functionally it's working in a way

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Speaker 4: that's making everybody super happy. However, people are trying new things,

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Speaker 4: like they're trying things to get fans out and to

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Speaker 4: you know, to say if you care about our teams,

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Speaker 4: care about our teams. And I think that's completely different

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Speaker 4: from things you would have seen ten years ago. Again,

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Speaker 4: I don't know. You know, sometimes I think people who

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Speaker 4: aren't fans of the women's game might be like, ugh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want it to feel like this is

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Speaker 1: a punishment, right, which for some people it will feel

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Speaker 1: like a forced punishment. It's like that that John Stamos

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Speaker 1: show where he was a basketball coach, but like he

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Speaker 1: was so disgraced as a men's coach that the only

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Speaker 1: option left was he had to coach girls.

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Speaker 2: Gone.

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Speaker 1: It was like, hey, stop making the premise of your

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Speaker 1: shit that being a women's coach sucks, or going to

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Speaker 1: a women's game is a penalty you pay in order

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Speaker 1: to earn a spot at the men's game.

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Speaker 2: But I like the idea that there are efforts happening.

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Speaker 1: I like the idea that there's a thoughtfulness behind it

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Speaker 1: instead of just a sort of being resigned to not

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Speaker 1: being able to sell or promote or get people invested

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Speaker 1: in the women's side of things.

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Speaker 4: Not to mention that the men's game has been de

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Speaker 4: facto for women's sports fans.

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Speaker 3: Forever, so you couldn't get away. I mean, the opposite

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Speaker 3: has been happening.

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Speaker 4: If you want to watch the women's game and you're

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Speaker 4: clicking around for the last ten years, you're not gonna

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Speaker 4: have a hard time finding what you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: Where you hit the C button on your remote for

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Speaker 1: sports and you get to find out all the men's

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Speaker 1: sports on the TV, and only very recently have you

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Speaker 1: been able to move the tap forward and find out

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Speaker 1: what women's games are playing on your television.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In fact, I think some really brilliant person talked

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Speaker 2: about that in your book.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that later. I think her name was,

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Speaker 1: Yeah Spain something. Yeah, yeah, you know, we'll get to that.

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Speaker 2: You know you're at Yukon.

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Speaker 4: You.

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Speaker 1: Kate Fagan and I had this conversation I think years ago, uh,

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Speaker 1: talking about Page Beckers and the double edged sword of

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Speaker 1: a truly transformational player getting the attention that's deserved, bringing

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Speaker 1: eyeballs to the game, drawing all of the sponsors, and players,

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Speaker 1: often women of color, not getting the same kind of

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Speaker 1: attention that they deserved. How do we balance leaning into

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Speaker 1: generational superstars with incredible appeal and selling power while also

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Speaker 1: trying to spotlight other players. Now, I will say, even

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Speaker 1: just from a few years ago, we are now seeing

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Speaker 1: Juju Watkins and other players of color get the kind

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Speaker 1: of love Asia Wilson that we've always asked for and

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Speaker 1: demanded when it was mostly being yeah flage, being mostly directed.

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Speaker 2: At white players.

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Speaker 1: But I think there is something to be said still,

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Speaker 1: for how do you lean into the ones that change everything,

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Speaker 1: the Caitlin's and pages while also bringing along the rest,

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Speaker 1: cause I think sometimes we almost err on the side

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Speaker 1: of pushing back. I feel like some people in the

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Speaker 1: last year are because of so much drama and tension

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Speaker 1: and toxicity around Caitlin, almost started pushing back on allowing

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Speaker 1: for her presence to be doing the things it does.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think I think Caitlyn Clark and Angel

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Speaker 4: Reese are very much a tandem in this story, just

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Speaker 4: because their participation in the Women's tournament and there when

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Speaker 4: they meet each other that is such. It's like a rivalry,

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Speaker 4: and everybody loves a good rivalry. Bird Magic like is

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Speaker 4: always the one that's compared to. And so I feel

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Speaker 4: like it's important that when we're having the conversation about

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Speaker 4: what's happening in the WNBA right now, we don't leave

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Speaker 4: Angel Reese aside just to talk about Kaitlyn Clark. I

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Speaker 4: think they really have come in as a pair and

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Speaker 4: raise the level together, and so I think that's important.

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Speaker 4: I think also, like man the ad slute difficulty of

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Speaker 4: the WNBA conversation. Media wise, this summer was really tough.

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Speaker 4: I know, for you to listen to and for me,

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Speaker 4: some real old sports writer tropes came in The Great

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Speaker 4: White Hope. Anybody want to know that one. There was

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Speaker 4: also analysis recently done, an academic analysis that looked at

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Speaker 4: the idea of brains versus braun in the discussion with

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Speaker 4: Caitlin and Angel Reese and how unfair that is to

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Speaker 4: Angel Reese and.

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Speaker 3: Also to Kaitlyn Clark. I mean, at the same time,

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Speaker 3: she doesn't deserve.

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Speaker 4: To be saddled with these old tropes, you know, an

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Speaker 4: any no one does anymore.

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Speaker 3: So let's take out the broom and we will sweep

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Speaker 3: those out of our conversation for next season.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, this is a league, the w NBA,

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Speaker 4: a majority black women in that league, and they have

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Speaker 4: had to fight for their piece of the media pie. Uh,

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Speaker 4: they for recognition to be able to use their voices

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Speaker 4: in a way. You know that has not driven off

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Speaker 4: that it has brought more fans to the game, And

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Speaker 4: so I think it's really important to just be able

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Speaker 4: to open your eyes and see it and let's recognize

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Speaker 4: this dynamic for what it is and not fall into

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Speaker 4: the traps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think last year, I if I'm being fully honest.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure.

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Speaker 1: My support of Caitlyn as a player and my fandom

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Speaker 1: of watching her wasn't misinterpreted as picking a quote unquote side,

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Speaker 1: and I have to say I sometimes probably aired too

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Speaker 1: far in trying to make sure it didn't seem like

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Speaker 1: I was bought into Caitlin Clark as the great white Hope,

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Speaker 1: the savior of things, to a point of maybe not

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Speaker 1: talking about her appreciating her as much as I would

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Speaker 1: have if there hadn't been so much bullshit out there.

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Speaker 2: It was annoying and it.

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Speaker 1: Was frustrating, and a lot of moron started dominating conversation,

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Speaker 1: both at the highest levels who had big platforms and

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Speaker 1: people on social media that turned every word and every

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Speaker 1: syllable into some sort of secret message about how you

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Speaker 1: really felt. And I was accused on both sides being

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Speaker 1: the white lady who doesn't root for Angel Rees and

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Speaker 1: being the progressive lady who doesn't root for Kaitlin Clark

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Speaker 1: because I'm trying to defend Angel reason. It was exhausting,

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Speaker 1: and I hate that so much of that comes into

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Speaker 1: play as we're trying to harness this incredible growth and

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Speaker 1: excitement we're still fighting ourselves. We're getting in our own way,

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Speaker 1: and it's infuriating. But I think you know what you

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Speaker 1: and Kate and I decided years ago that is so

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Speaker 1: true is yes, lean into the people that can take

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Speaker 1: you to the next level. And while they're taking you,

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Speaker 1: be sure to send everybody else with them, because as

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Speaker 1: soon as we start rejecting those people that break through,

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Speaker 1: we are stopping that progress that inevitably will bring everyone along.

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Speaker 2: It just might be frustrating along the way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'm a brunette basketball player from Nebraska.

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Speaker 4: If you think I didn't watch Kaitlyn Clark for the

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Speaker 4: first time and be like, oh, it is glorious to

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Speaker 4: see like my little type, right, you know. But at

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Speaker 4: the same time, that doesn't mean that I don't also

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Speaker 4: think that, like angel reason, what she brings to the

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Speaker 4: court isn't amazing, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think that's like absolutely and that you.

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Speaker 4: Know, there's room for everybody, literally everybody, every person, every

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Speaker 4: type in women's basketball, right, That's what's so beautiful about it.

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Speaker 4: The storytelling is great. I'll get misty at Caitlin Clark's story.

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Speaker 4: I'll get misty and other stories too, like it. You know,

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Speaker 4: you it's storytelling. We need the storytelling around everyone. So

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Speaker 4: you know, I was just looking because I'm hearing stories.

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Speaker 4: I was looking at some of the old pictures of

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Speaker 4: Geno orim you know, over the years, and there was

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Speaker 4: one of them where there was like this young swin

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Speaker 4: Cash sitting beside him. She had her hands down around

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Speaker 4: her arms and she had these you know she just said,

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Speaker 4: fully developed like arm muscles, like so muscular and everything.

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Speaker 4: And I was just like, I love this game. You know,

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Speaker 4: like swin Cash comes out of this game. You know,

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Speaker 4: all of these people that are just that go on

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Speaker 4: and do amazing things, and I think, you know, it's

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Speaker 4: for everybody.

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Speaker 1: And that they all like, like to your point, they

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Speaker 1: all look different doing it. You've got like, uh, swin Cash,

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Speaker 1: and you've got Audie Crooks, and you've got you know,

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Speaker 1: five five players who are like hitting step back Jay's

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Speaker 1: with a six to two player in their face. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Unrivaled proved to us some really fascinating things about the

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Speaker 1: sneaky guards versus the unicorn type tall players in the

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Speaker 1: one on one tournament where I thought there was gonna

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Speaker 1: be a lot more guards going deep and it turned

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Speaker 1: out to be the unicorns, the bigs that were better

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Speaker 1: because of their reach and everything. So yeah, it's fun

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Speaker 1: when you just get excited about all of them instead

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Speaker 1: of singularly laser focusing on the one or two that

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Speaker 1: fits some narrative that you want to endorse. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about your book, because you came on the show in

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Speaker 1: December before it was officially out. But now The Fast

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Speaker 1: Track Inside the Surging Business of Women's Sports is actually

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Speaker 1: out in stores. In fact, it is in the front

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Speaker 1: window of my local book shop.

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Speaker 2: I sent you a picture of that. Very cool.

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Speaker 1: What's been the resorts in the first week or so,

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Speaker 1: any surprising reactions or comments?

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Speaker 4: You know what? I just I spoke to a group

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Speaker 4: at a university, Suffolk University in Boston a bit ago,

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Speaker 4: and the professor had as sign my book and they'd

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Speaker 4: read it, and I.

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Speaker 3: Was like, a day, Yeah, you know, it's funny. It's

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Speaker 3: like I have a book.

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Speaker 4: No, well, the book has actually pages in it with

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Speaker 4: words on it that and ideas that are inside of that.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy. So that's interesting. Also, I had yesterday villagean

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Speaker 3: King post with my book.

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Speaker 4: I saw that, like, she's all over that book, right

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Speaker 4: obviously because this is her her area. Like she is,

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Speaker 4: she is such a foundational person when it comes to

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Speaker 4: women's sports and what women are capable of it and

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Speaker 4: really being like dynamic and insistent in a way that

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Speaker 4: I think is really important. So like, I you know,

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Speaker 4: so that was a little bit of a great moment

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Speaker 4: for me to see that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so the response has been pretty good.

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Speaker 2: I did have.

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Speaker 3: It's so funny.

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Speaker 4: I had a young woman who said, you know, as

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Speaker 4: I said earlier, she was like, what do you say?

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Speaker 3: She was a basketball player.

385
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Speaker 4: She's like, what do you say when guys are like,

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Speaker 4: don't make us watch women's sports?

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Speaker 3: And because I think that's kind of what she was getting,

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Speaker 3: and and I'm always like, I don't, Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 4: They don't.

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Speaker 3: Nobody has to watch women's sports. Like you don't have to.

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Speaker 4: You just have to not yell at us if you're

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Speaker 4: watching women's sports. Right, That's the only thing I don't

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Speaker 4: yell at other people when they watch any sport that

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Speaker 4: I'm not interested in.

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Speaker 1: Just what Supbird always said, It's fine if you're not interested,

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Speaker 1: just don't poison the well. We're already battling back from

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Speaker 1: centuries of patriarchy and misogyny. We don't need it added,

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Speaker 1: you know, roadblock before we even get started, you're telling

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Speaker 1: everyone we suck.

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Speaker 4: Exactly right, exactly, And it's not just SUPERB who says

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Speaker 4: things like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, no, no, no, but.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that dynamic is like has really been there and

404
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,280
Speaker 4: it's been kind of the uphill. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 4: when you tell girls that they can be anything they

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Speaker 4: want to be, Like, why do you even.

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Speaker 3: Have to say that?

408
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,879
Speaker 4: You have to say that because they're impediments in their

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Speaker 4: way that haven't been there boys in the past.

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Speaker 1: You know, you spent years in print journalism, you spent

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Speaker 1: a decade or so at ESPN. When you were writing

412
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Speaker 1: this book, what stood out most to you about how

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Speaker 1: your experiences in the journalism space informed your perspective on

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Speaker 1: women's sports and the changing landscape.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because the same forces that acted on us in

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Speaker 4: a professional setting that was you know, around sports, are

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Speaker 4: the same forces that are acting on the women who

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Speaker 4: play and in those leagues as they fight for dollars

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Speaker 4: and they fight for sponsorships and they fight for a

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Speaker 4: share of the audience, and not only that, to find

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Speaker 4: the audience, I think is really where it's been, Like,

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Speaker 4: how are you meeting that audience where it lives as

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Speaker 4: opposed to expecting it to behave in the way that

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00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 4: other sports audiences have acted, And so that's kind of

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Speaker 4: been something that's really been different. Yeah, I mean, I

426
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 4: think also we saw sort of behind the scenes of

427
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Speaker 4: the decision making of what to promote, what to talk about. Hey,

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Speaker 4: we want to talk about this, No, I think you

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Speaker 4: just stick to this that we always talk about.

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Speaker 2: Which is usually met sports.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think your book touches on a lot

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Speaker 1: of different aspects of the drivers behind growth or stalls,

433
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Speaker 1: including a lot of talk about gatekeepers, to which you

434
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 1: just reference the folks in charge, the people in power,

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Speaker 1: and how their decision making affects things. In fact, I

436
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Speaker 1: heard in an interview with Brenda the show Caroline Fitzgerald,

437
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 1: who does the Goals podcast, that.

438
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 2: You almost name the book gatekeepers.

439
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: You didn't end up ultimately wanting to give them that power,

440
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 1: but they do have a lot of power. And how

441
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 1: important is it when we talk about the history of

442
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: women's sports for it to be discussed as a result

443
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 1: of intention people in power making decisions as opposed to

444
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: a sort of organic societal response to the product, which

445
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 1: is what it was always held up as.

446
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think this is important.

447
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that you and I

448
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,439
Speaker 4: witnessed is that people in decision making roles in broadcast

449
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 4: or media writ large were very wary of disturbing the

450
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 4: existing audience for men's sports, and that led to a

451
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 4: lot of decisions about what to profile, what to pay

452
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 4: attention to, where to shine a spotlight, what to let

453
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 4: people talk about, et cetera. It was this, you know

454
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 4: ESPN can look in. You know, it used to be

455
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 4: fifteen minute blocks. I'm sure it's smaller chunk chunks now

456
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 4: as to what people are watching at any given time, you

457
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 4: say a sentence and twelve percent of people turn the channel,

458
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 4: they're going to be aware of that, and they're going

459
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 4: to be aware of what conversations are driving audiences away.

460
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 4: Because people randomly come in, but if they go away

461
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 4: in mass at.

462
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: A certain moment, then yeah, it's obvious.

463
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 4: Why so, I think there's been a lot of fear

464
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 4: that you're gonna lose audience without looking for how are

465
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 4: we going to gain audience? And part of the reason

466
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 4: that that's been so problematic in mainstream areas is because

467
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 4: you know, advertising has been sold to men through sports

468
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 4: when you you know, I often ask this of groups

469
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 4: when you listen to the sports talk radio and then

470
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 4: you know, all of the eighteen to twenty two year

471
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 4: olds look at me quizzically.

472
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 2: But radio, what's that?

473
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: Man?

474
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 2: Let me talk?

475
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 3: Is that a podcast? What is that?

476
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 4: It's like, well, in my generation, we used to have

477
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 4: this thing called radio, but you know, sports talk radio.

478
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 4: If you listen to the ads, they're you know, boner

479
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 4: pills and cars and razors and all this stuff.

480
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 3: It's clearly products for men.

481
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 4: And the idea was very much like, well, we don't

482
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 4: want to we don't want to lose the audience for

483
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 4: the men's products that we've established, and we don't quite

484
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 4: know how to sell women things. And we're not even

485
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 4: counting women in the audience when it comes to radio,

486
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 4: So how do we even know how we would.

487
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 3: Sell them a product? Let's just talk more about football.

488
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: So to that point, just to put a finer point

489
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 1: on it, across so many spaces in sports, they actually

490
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: do only calculate men eighteen to forty nine. It's not

491
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: that they prioritize that, they only calculate that listenership. If

492
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: you ask them how many women are listening or watching.

493
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: They would say, we don't have numbers on that. So

494
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: imagine that more than fifty percent of the population is

495
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: not being accounted for as a possible viewer, engager, listener,

496
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: and that you're not putting any work into finding them

497
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: because you don't know how to track them or serve them,

498
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: and then you just give up.

499
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: That's not a great business model.

500
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 4: No, But at the same time, you know, I knew

501
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 4: when we were doing the Trifecta, if we brought in

502
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: sixty million women to that show every Saturday and we

503
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 4: lost five guys, our show would show a loss of listenership,

504
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 4: which is a bit jarring, you know. So, but that

505
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 4: is the model that it is, and so I don't

506
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 4: think it's necessarily malicious when people say, oh, well, maybe

507
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 4: we don't need sport a show for women, you know

508
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 4: about women's sports, it's because they're listening to the numbers

509
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 4: and they're afraid of they're scary.

510
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen. I used to always compare it to baseball.

511
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball would look at its numbers and say,

512
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: here the people, they're this age and they're this whatever,

513
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: And instead of thinking how can we serve younger people,

514
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: they would cling to the old people that they already

515
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: had and fear change. Lately, they've been doing better. They've

516
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: been finding rule changes to you know, speed up the game.

517
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: They've been doing stuff that traditionalists hate, but younger people

518
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: are more interested in. That's exactly what we were seeing

519
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 1: happen on the media space for the women's side. It

520
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: was like we were so afraid of losing the men

521
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: we had that we didn't even think about the possibility

522
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 1: of gaining. And often I think insulting male sports fans

523
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: as being these sort of stereotypical Neanderthals who were going

524
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: to be offended by the sound of a women's voice

525
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 1: or completely uninterested in women's sports, when we find that

526
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: so much of a percentage of women's sports fans are men.

527
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, well right exactly. And now, I mean, I think

528
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 4: that has changed a lot. I mean, I'm listening to

529
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 4: a lot of the play by play and you know,

530
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 4: Beth Moens and you have like a lot of people

531
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 4: and she's of course been in the game forever and

532
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 4: talking about enduring that whole time period where people were

533
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 4: having debates about whether or not women's voices actually could

534
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 4: call games like in a serious way, you know, but

535
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 4: that's it. You know again, there is definitely stacking when

536
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: is the term for it in in a sports broadcast,

537
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: and that means that people of different identities have roles

538
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 4: in different places, which is the sideline reporter is generally

539
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 4: going to be a woman, the play by play is

540
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 4: generally going to be a guy. I mean, you definitely

541
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 4: have these like stereotypical roles and it is very difficult

542
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 4: for broadcasting to.

543
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 3: Break out of it.

544
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: I hope that they're going to because when you have

545
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 4: more women's games to call, necessitates having more people who

546
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 4: are familiar with those players, and those are generally going

547
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: to be women and women who played, so you see,

548
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: I think elane emerging for athletes and former athletes is

549
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 4: really gratifying to see and that the growth in that

550
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: sector for that, you know, for a retired athlete from

551
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: when in sports now is amazing.

552
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: Not just calling games, but podcasts, wrap around shows, shoulder programming,

553
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: all that stuff. We got to take a quick break

554
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: when we come back more with Jane McManus. So in

555
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: the book, you also talk about big picture issues like

556
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: expectations for the female body and harnessing the male gaze, Like,

557
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: you know, I so often tell people the issues in sport,

558
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: whether they be misogyny, online trolls, disparate opportunities, pay inequity,

559
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: They're just the issues of life, right, Like, how are

560
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: we expected to fight the patriarchy in sport when we're

561
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: struggling so much to do it in life?

562
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: So how do you? I have to admit, I'm not

563
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: all the way through the book, so what.

564
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: This interview is over?

565
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: I know, I just it was funny. I was like,

566
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: I just got started.

567
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: When I saw you the other week, I was I

568
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: just got started, but I haven't gotten that far. And

569
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: You're like you didn't even look to see how many

570
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: times you're in it? And I'm like, no, but now

571
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: I will. And I went to the end there, so

572
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm in it a lot, But like, how

573
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: do you talk about fixing things that are so much.

574
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: Bigger than women's sports issues?

575
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 4: Well? Actually, I think like women's sports are a way

576
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: to change the perception of women, and that's impart of

577
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 4: why women's sports are so important. But you know, we

578
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 4: can only get so far in sports as women in

579
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 4: as we can get in society. You know, there has

580
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: to be an allowance in space for women and for

581
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 4: you know, for people in women's sports and athletes who

582
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 4: play women's sports. There has to be an allowance for

583
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 4: those people in society in order to be able to

584
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 4: progress in the games. And so the way I look

585
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 4: at it is, you know, you have to have a

586
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 4: society where the roles assigned to you because of your

587
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 4: gender are not so rigid that you can't work outside

588
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: the home. I mean, there are societies where the roles

589
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 4: are so rigid that women are allowed to leave the

590
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: house by themselves, and those are really hard way places

591
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 4: to feel a soccer team, for example, So you have

592
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 4: to have that. I think you also have to have

593
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 4: some level of productive freedom, the ability to decide when

594
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 4: you're going to have children number one, in order to

595
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 4: have you know, women's leagues writ large, you have to

596
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 4: have that.

597
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 3: And you also have the.

598
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: Ability to not have having a child or giving birth

599
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 4: completely disrupt your ability to play. So you have to

600
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 4: have space where you have childcare, you have help in childcare.

601
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 4: You also have facilities that are built into your CBA

602
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: or into your team or into your day that allow

603
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 4: you to nurse, that allow you to have take care

604
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 4: of a kid that allow you, you know, whatever it

605
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 4: is that you need in order to be able to

606
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: be more than just the athlete. And so those things

607
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 4: have to be allowable for women as well, and allowable

608
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: literally allowable. So I think those are all things. But

609
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 4: I do think that playing sports give people a sense

610
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 4: of their body and their bodily autonomy, the power of

611
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: their body, and that is disruptive when when culture really

612
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 4: insists that women stay within very small reas defined roles.

613
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 3: So anyway, those are some of the things that I'll say.

614
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's so true.

615
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: I've talked about this before on the show, but just

616
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: to mention again how profound it was for me that

617
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: when I was out at the Sydney Opera House with

618
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: Angel City for their Angel City Summit for the World Cup,

619
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: I interviewed the captain of the Afghan women's soccer team.

620
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: And when the Taliban.

621
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: Took over, one of the first groups that was sent away,

622
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: thrown onto a plane and sent away without friends or

623
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: family were female athletes. Because the Taliban was looking for

624
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: educated women and they were looking for empowered women, which

625
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: meant athletes who were in control of their bodies and

626
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: understood their own power and their own autonomy, and I

627
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: think that's all you need to know to understand why

628
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: women's sports and sports can be such an act of

629
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: resistance in times when we're trying to be funneled into

630
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: lanes or restricted from where we're allowed to be and

631
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: what we're allowed to do. Because when you understand that

632
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: your body is yours and it accomplishes things, it is

633
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: not the subject of another person's gaze, or something to

634
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: be put to work in the home, or something to

635
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: be used to create babies, your perspective changes and to yeah,

636
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: your point is valued. Not only are we trying to

637
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: fight patriarchal issues in sports, but also we understand that

638
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: sports have a unique power to fight.

639
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: Against them if we if we push in our own space.

640
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: You know, on the show, we've talked about how people

641
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: will often post exciting stats, like most viewers since, but

642
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: they rarely go back to see what was going on

643
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: years ago when the viewership was even higher. Why was

644
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: it higher that twenty or thirty years ago? To the

645
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: post you just made right, it's great to celebrate it,

646
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: but what does it tell us when we aren't understanding

647
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: what the peaks and valleys came from, why they happen,

648
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: and that often I think folk leads folks to think

649
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: that the era going up will inevitably continue to go up.

650
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: Do you have a warning for those that think the

651
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: future trajectory of women's sports is unquestionably up?

652
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 4: I think you know the answer to this, I absolutely do.

653
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 4: You know. That's the thing is like those WNBA games

654
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 4: in the beginning we're on ABC, I watched them. Princess

655
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 4: Diana was in the had that tragic car accident that

656
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 4: same summer that the WNBA finals were on a liberty

657
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 4: versus the Houston Comets, which were a team that existed

658
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: back then.

659
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: I won a lot, but you know they did, they

660
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: won a lot that they don't they're not around anymore.

661
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 4: But yeah, so there's not an inevitability to this trajectory

662
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 4: at all, and I think it needs to be guarded

663
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 4: against because I think some of the some of the

664
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: very points that we just rd in the previous answer

665
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: are things that are you know, that people are aware

666
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 4: of when they're not interested in women having their voice

667
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: and surging. Like you know, there plenty of rights that

668
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: people have taken for granted can be taken away, and

669
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 4: so I think it's really careful to guard against that

670
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 4: and to not take things as a given. You know,

671
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 4: I walk into a classroom and I talk to young people,

672
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 4: and when I say Billy Jean King's name, I kind

673
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: of look to see if everybody recognized how many people

674
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 4: of you how many here know you know? And it's

675
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: not a given that everybody knows that, and they don't

676
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 4: know their history. And I think for them, you know,

677
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 4: thank goodness. You know, a lot of these you know,

678
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 4: athletes at the NC double A right now, they were

679
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: raised in a time when they didn't.

680
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: Have to worry about a lot of that stuff and

681
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 3: where things were going up.

682
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 4: But you know, the thing is, like, the big point

683
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 4: of this book is that this is not like we

684
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 4: like to tell the story of sports and women's leagues

685
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: through the you know, Billy Jean King, the person who overcame,

686
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: But there are a lot of people who get eaten

687
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 4: by the system and it didn't overcome and who weren't

688
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 4: able to. And I think it's really important not to

689
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 4: just tell the story through the plucky little gal that

690
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 4: made it through, but it's important to tell it through

691
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 4: the fact that there were lots of really plucky kids

692
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 4: who got told to sit back down. And so anyway,

693
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: I mean that's kind of like this this book is

694
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 4: for those people as well, like for the people who

695
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 4: didn't get to be the hero, didn't get to hold

696
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 4: the trophy, didn't get to go to practice, all of that,

697
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: and I just you know, we don't want to go

698
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 4: back to those days. Sports have been you know, great

699
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 4: for you personally, probably got you into.

700
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: A great school. And they were great for me too.

701
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: For sure.

702
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 4: I have met you know, amazing people through playing sports

703
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: and playing pickup you know, basketball back in the day.

704
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: But but that's not you know, if we revert to

705
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 4: a time where it's dangerous for girls to play with boys,

706
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 4: then you know, all those pickup games that playden would

707
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: have been impossible. So you know, I think we really

708
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: have to guard against some of these conversations that are

709
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 4: happening right now about women's quote unquote safety.

710
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree because to your point. Also, usually

711
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: it's not from people who have a genuine fear of

712
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: women's sports not getting their due or their resources or

713
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: their investment. It's people who again want to put us

714
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: back into certain spaces and lanes, and they know that

715
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: using starting with trans athletes and then further limiting the

716
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: scope of where girls can play and against whom and

717
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: what's too hard on their bodies or dangerous for them

718
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: or leads them, you know, to be unladylike.

719
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: We'll get right back to that and we'll be going backwards.

720
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 4: You know.

721
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I think about when you talk about the plucky girls

722
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: left behind, it's not even just the ones who weren't

723
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: allowed to compete. It makes me sad sometimes thinking about,

724
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: like what if Sue Bird and Dinah Tarassi were starting

725
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: now and we needed them to get to where we

726
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: are and it's not like they're hurting' But gosh, what

727
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: I like to see Diana to ROSSI start a career

728
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: right now, start the career that she had right now

729
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: with the eyeballs and the investment and the money and

730
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: the sponsors and the attendance.

731
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: I just, I just you need the builders. But I do.

732
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: I think about Molly Bolan. There's a great doc about her.

733
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: It's incredible college basketball player who ended up playing in

734
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: the Women's Professional Basketball League the WPBL and was averaging

735
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: like over thirty points a game. She would score like

736
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: fifty points. She had to create a calendar of her

737
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: like looking sexy in her jersey to try to pay

738
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: her bills, and then she got basically condemned for trying

739
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: to be a sex symbol while being a mom, while

740
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: being a player, and like was you know, ultimately just

741
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: didn't have the opportunity to be the incredible player that

742
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: she was and go down in history as someone we

743
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: remember and know her name because the situation that she

744
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: played in the time she played and just didn't allow

745
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: for her to be this multi dimensional, amazing player.

746
00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: It's a Cheryl Miller.

747
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 4: I would love to see Cheryl Miller, you know, have

748
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 4: the spotlight, you know, I mean that, like there are

749
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 4: all kinds of and even even like Simone Augustus, like

750
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 4: you know, players who had like unconventional ways of presenting

751
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 4: that the world wasn't ready to embrace yet. I mean,

752
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 4: I think you'd see a different way of talking about

753
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 4: for sure.

754
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: Yeaeah, all right, I have to let you go.

755
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: I have one last question for you because you mentioned

756
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: walking into classrooms and wondering what they know about and

757
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: what they care about. It's an interesting time to be

758
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: in higher education. Uh I guess it starts. Yeah, I mean,

759
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: are you feeling the effects of threats to funding or

760
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: criticism of certain language or topics that you're allowed to broach.

761
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 4: Sarah, I am a woman who has gone into journalism

762
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 4: and higher ed for I have made all the wrong decisions.

763
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 4: No one should ask me about anything. I have not

764
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: lived my life in a way.

765
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: What was your first big splurge when you got your paycheck?

766
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: Did you get a car?

767
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 4: I got some clean underpants, you know, I got the

768
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 4: three pack of Haynes Nice.

769
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 3: It's about I've.

770
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 4: Earned it, so yeah, you know it's it's no, it's

771
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 4: it is a tough time I worry about.

772
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing is like, I don't know.

773
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 4: I just feel like I've always felt it's important for me.

774
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 4: People are going to know where I come from generally.

775
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 4: But I don't try to preach in the class Like

776
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 4: I don't think it's my business to tell anybody how

777
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 4: to think. I think it's my business to help you

778
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 4: figure out how you want to think and what you

779
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 4: want to think about.

780
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: Like that's my way of looking at it.

781
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 4: So I'm not I'm not proselytizing to anybody or expecting people,

782
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 4: you know, to believe, like to leave a classroom thinking

783
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: what I think. That's not That's not why I got

784
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 4: entire it, So I kind of and I tend to

785
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 4: feel like that's I genuinely see educators who kind of

786
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 4: care about students and want want them to think critically

787
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 4: and want them to learn, you know, be able to

788
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 4: tell information from disinformation, or how do you check a

789
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 4: source when you're reading through you.

790
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: Know, things becoming more necessary now with AI and fake

791
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: information and everything else. I do think probably though, it

792
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: must be heartening to see more students care about women's sports.

793
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: Do you find that young people are more interested in

794
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: and what they're interested in regard to women's sports.

795
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna leave you with a really happy story.

796
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 3: So I heard from this.

797
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 4: So I was in this class, The class where everybody

798
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 4: had read my book was so nice to walk into. Anyway,

799
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: one of the young men raise his hand and said, hey,

800
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 4: do you think this is different than what it would

801
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 4: have been like? And you know, when you were coming in,

802
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 4: he said, I work at a Dick's Sporting goods and

803
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 4: we sell a lot of Sabrini nescue shoots. And he says,

804
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 4: and we sell them to young men young women. You know,

805
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: he said, he said, I think that's different. And you know,

806
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 4: I had like I've seen you know, young men coming

807
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 4: into some of these conversations and these with you know,

808
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: wearing like fleet caps or you know gear, you know

809
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: nd USL gear like that is different. You know.

810
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 3: The thing is like, as much.

811
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 4: As these young women who are playing today feel like

812
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 4: sports is theirs, as much as it is their brothers,

813
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: Like their brothers get that too, you know. I think

814
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 4: that's a big difference, is that there is Yeah, there's

815
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 4: crossover fandom for sure, unapologetic crossover fandom. And I think

816
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 4: that's I think that's pretty spectacular, and you know, that

817
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 4: shows a real seat change.

818
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: I agree.

819
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: Everybody read Jane's book. I'm talking to myself too. I

820
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: am going to read it.

821
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 2: I just need literally two minutes off.

822
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 4: Man, good grind you don't you just I was trying

823
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 4: to I was trying to get your you know, get

824
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 4: you where you live by saying, don't you want to

825
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: see your name in print?

826
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: I mean clearly I do.

827
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: It's going to get me reading faster, that's for damn sure, exactly, Jane,

828
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for the time always, Sarah.

829
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: We have to take another break. When we come back.

830
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: The Trifecta has been writing up a storm welcome back slices.

831
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to

832
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too, So here's our

833
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: good game play of the day. Make sure you pick

834
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: up a copy of Jane's book, duh. We'll link to

835
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: it in our show notes and we always love to

836
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: hear from you, so hit us up on email. Good

837
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: game at wondermedianetwork dot com, and don't forget to subscribe,

838
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: rate and review slices. It's easy watch seeing your friend's

839
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: book in the window of a store. Rating ten out

840
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: of ten.

841
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I know her review.

842
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: How fun was it for me to walk by my

843
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: local bookstore and see Jane's book prominently displayed? I love

844
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: that shout out to Volumes Book Cafe, And I know

845
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: I mentioned this at a previous show, but it bears

846
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: repeating because my mind is still kind of blown that

847
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: all three members of the award eligible radio show The

848
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: Trifecta will have a book on the shelves of bookstores

849
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: this year. Kate Fagan's thrilling, compelling book The Three Lives

850
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: of katek Jane's Fantastic The fast Track, and Soon My

851
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: Book Runs in the Family, An incredible true story of football,

852
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: fatherhood and belonging. We're all growns up, y'all, We're all

853
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: growns up. Haven't ordered all three books yet? What are

854
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: you waiting for? Come on, get to it now, It's

855
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: your turn. Rate and review slices.

856
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: Thanks, listen.

857
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: See you tomorrow when we chat with not one, but

858
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: two national championship winning Hall of Fame basketball coaches, Tara

859
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: Vanderveer and Muffett McGrath. Good Game, Jane, Good Game, Kate You.

860
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: Boner pill Ads.

861
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports

862
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You

863
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

864
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

865
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive

866
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.

867
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez, and Grace Lynch.

868
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Lucy Jones and I'm your host

869
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: Sarah Spain