1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background the show 2 00:00:21,796 --> 00:00:24,796 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:25,236 --> 00:00:32,156 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Tonight we renew our resolve that America 4 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 1: will never be a socialist country. That's President Donald Trump 5 00:00:43,756 --> 00:00:45,876 Speaker 1: to a huge round of applause at the State of 6 00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:48,796 Speaker 1: the Union address, And that got me thinking, in a 7 00:00:48,836 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: world where Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, and 8 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: so does Alexandriocazio Cortez, and so to a whole raft 9 00:00:55,556 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: of young and active new progressives, what is socialism? What's 10 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: a socialist? Doesn't matter? Is there any really good reason 11 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 1: that we can't have socialism in the United States? Or 12 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:10,836 Speaker 1: is it truly the case that we can never have 13 00:01:10,876 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 1: a socialist country? And maybe above all, how close is 14 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:17,796 Speaker 1: today's brand of socialism to the real thing. To discuss 15 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 1: socialism and what it means today, we have with us 16 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: probably the person in best position to talk about that 17 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: in the entire United States, and that's Professor Sean Willance 18 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:31,436 Speaker 1: of Princeton, who's thought incredibly deeply and written extremely broadly 19 00:01:31,636 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: about the history of labor, of unionism, of politics, and 20 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:37,396 Speaker 1: if the terms that talk about those things in the 21 00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:40,236 Speaker 1: United States from the very dawn of the American Republic 22 00:01:40,636 --> 00:01:42,996 Speaker 1: right up until the present. Sean, I'm thrilled that you're 23 00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 1: able to join us. Thank you for coming, well, thank 24 00:01:45,116 --> 00:01:48,076 Speaker 1: you not for that lovely introduction. So let me start 25 00:01:48,076 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 1: with the question that is frankly plaguing me in the 26 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,516 Speaker 1: aftermath of Donald Trump's proclamation and the new Democratic Socialists 27 00:01:55,516 --> 00:01:58,076 Speaker 1: in their rise, and that is, at the most basic level, 28 00:01:58,596 --> 00:02:02,596 Speaker 1: what is socialism? Well, in America, there have been a 29 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:05,276 Speaker 1: lot of different answers to that question, actually, because I've 30 00:02:05,316 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 1: been different strains of socialism. Very importantly, for the first 31 00:02:09,676 --> 00:02:11,636 Speaker 1: thing to do is to talk about what is socialism? 32 00:02:11,636 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: What is it not? It is not communism. Let's just 33 00:02:14,996 --> 00:02:18,516 Speaker 1: get that from the very start. You know, it's not 34 00:02:18,556 --> 00:02:21,636 Speaker 1: just the narcissism of just noticeable differences that socialists and 35 00:02:21,716 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 1: communists despise each other, very different views on how you 36 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:30,476 Speaker 1: go about building a socialist you know, future completely at 37 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:32,916 Speaker 1: odds with each other. So let's just take away all 38 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:34,756 Speaker 1: of the Stalinists and all of the trots Kits and 39 00:02:34,796 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 1: all of them, they're off to the side. Was that 40 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 1: true right from the start? I mean, if you had 41 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 1: Karl Marx in the chair here. Oh, Karl Marx is 42 00:02:42,276 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: dead by the time of all of this is happening, 43 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: or pretty much so. No, No, the history of American 44 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:49,956 Speaker 1: socialism begins in around the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties. There's 45 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:53,156 Speaker 1: a prehistory to that. The first great socialist figure is 46 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 1: Eugene Debs, and Eugene Debs founds a tradition that goes 47 00:02:56,516 --> 00:03:01,556 Speaker 1: through the Socialist Party. Socialist Party runs basically from Debs 48 00:03:02,476 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: to Norman Thomas in the thirties, finally to Michael Harrington. 49 00:03:06,836 --> 00:03:09,516 Speaker 1: So the first takeaway then, if I to try to 50 00:03:09,556 --> 00:03:11,516 Speaker 1: sum it up, would be that when we talk about 51 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:14,476 Speaker 1: socialism in America, we're talking about American socialism correct, which 52 00:03:14,516 --> 00:03:16,076 Speaker 1: is its own thing, and that may be very important 53 00:03:16,076 --> 00:03:19,436 Speaker 1: for our conversation. Absolutely absolutely. Then there's another tradition which 54 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: is more of an immigrant tradition. I mean, Debs was 55 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: from the Midwest and Norman Thomas went to Princeton. After all, 56 00:03:26,636 --> 00:03:28,676 Speaker 1: Michael's different. We can get to Michael in a sect, 57 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: but that was a tradition that was very all American. 58 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: That's all American socialism. So what's the definition of all 59 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 1: American socialism for the socialists? It comes out of basically 60 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:42,596 Speaker 1: all American political traditions, very Christian. And then this Michael 61 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: shared it because he was Catholic, was a Catholic Protestant. Yeah, 62 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:49,756 Speaker 1: but it has that kind of social gospel aspect to it. 63 00:03:49,756 --> 00:03:52,556 Speaker 1: It's not exactly the same, but it comes out of that. 64 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: The other stream is very different. The other stream is immigrant, 65 00:03:57,436 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: much more Jewish. It's the New York tradians, people like 66 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 1: David Dabinski, Sidney Hillman. They are a very important part 67 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:08,676 Speaker 1: of the socialist tradition, and if you're talking about the 68 00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 1: connection between socialism and the Democratic Party, they're absolutely crucial. 69 00:04:12,356 --> 00:04:15,276 Speaker 1: So before we get into them, let's go back to 70 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: the mainstream American socialism of Debs and of Norman Thomas. Yes, 71 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:23,436 Speaker 1: how did they think of socialism definitionally, Well, basically it 72 00:04:23,556 --> 00:04:26,916 Speaker 1: meant it meant that there would be a social revolution 73 00:04:27,316 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: in which the working class would take power in effect. 74 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:34,836 Speaker 1: And now what that means is complicated, but nevertheless, and 75 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 1: own the mean and socialize the means of production. So 76 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:40,316 Speaker 1: let's clarify that too. Socialize the means of production means 77 00:04:40,356 --> 00:04:43,596 Speaker 1: the government, such as it would be, would own anything 78 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: that was a money making enterprise. Basically. I mean there 79 00:04:45,836 --> 00:04:49,476 Speaker 1: would be different sectors agriculture, industry, et cetera, finance importantly, 80 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:54,596 Speaker 1: but yes, that it would be that socialism means a 81 00:04:54,676 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 1: society that is run by society that is run by 82 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:01,876 Speaker 1: the class of society that is the universal class according 83 00:05:01,916 --> 00:05:04,476 Speaker 1: to Marx, which is they say, the proletariat. So the 84 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:07,156 Speaker 1: workers own the means of production that is there, that 85 00:05:07,276 --> 00:05:09,796 Speaker 1: is their It's all about without the thing that Donald 86 00:05:09,796 --> 00:05:12,636 Speaker 1: Trump is terrified by, correct, I mean, without the mesa production, 87 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: Socialism in that form doesn't mean anything. So that is that. 88 00:05:17,356 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 1: Now how democratic was this version of socialism? Did they 89 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:22,676 Speaker 1: think that it should come to power by people voting 90 00:05:22,676 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 1: for it or were they open to the other kind 91 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 1: of revolutions? Well, there were other kinds of you know, 92 00:05:26,436 --> 00:05:28,916 Speaker 1: there were socialists and socialists. But you know Debs. Debs 93 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 1: is running for president does a socialist party. He's getting 94 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:33,916 Speaker 1: getting votes. I mean, he's going out in campaigning it's 95 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,676 Speaker 1: democratic socialism. From the beginning. He didn't pretty a couple 96 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:38,676 Speaker 1: of times, didn't he. They did well once in nineteen 97 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 1: twelve he got six percent of the vote, the highest, 98 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:45,276 Speaker 1: but it's a lot, you know. So these are socialists 99 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 1: who believe that the people will rise up, but they 100 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:51,956 Speaker 1: won't do it violently. Correct. They will run for office, correct, 101 00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: and they will democratically pass laws. Correct. The takeover ownership 102 00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: of the businesses of America and agriculture and so forth. 103 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 1: It's very very simply yes, um, you know. But but 104 00:06:02,316 --> 00:06:04,516 Speaker 1: coming off of that, there are lots of other ways 105 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: in which socialism developed. That is to say, there's a 106 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 1: there's a ranch of socialism called sewer socialism. This is 107 00:06:12,196 --> 00:06:15,396 Speaker 1: very big in the Midwest, in places like Milwaukee. German 108 00:06:15,476 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 1: socialists for the most part associated with debs, but distinct 109 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:22,396 Speaker 1: and they got very interested in municipal It was about 110 00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:27,876 Speaker 1: all about cities and municipal services, trying to socialize, you know, 111 00:06:27,996 --> 00:06:30,436 Speaker 1: socialism in one city if you will, so literally the 112 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:33,316 Speaker 1: sewers of the city should be owned by the city 113 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 1: rather than a private exactly exactly. You taken out of 114 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:37,356 Speaker 1: the prime hands of the private exploitters, and you put 115 00:06:37,356 --> 00:06:39,716 Speaker 1: in the hands of a just government, and you'll get 116 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 1: things done better. And that seems to have worked pretty well. 117 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: I mean, depending on what you think of your sewers. 118 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: In most of America today, isn't it the case that 119 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 1: municipalities they may not run the sewers on a daily basis, 120 00:06:49,716 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 1: but they own them, don't they better or worse? Yeah, 121 00:06:52,276 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: so sewer socialism kind of work. Well, I mean though, 122 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:57,076 Speaker 1: I mean I pay my I don't pay the city 123 00:06:57,116 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 1: for my electric bill. I don't pay the city for 124 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 1: a lot of utilities. I mean, there's a lot of 125 00:07:00,996 --> 00:07:02,916 Speaker 1: things that are not the case. But the MTA, for 126 00:07:02,996 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 1: better or worse, is run by the government, run by 127 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 1: elected officials, with a public private aspect to it. It's 128 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 1: never completely outside of it. But that comes in part 129 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:16,316 Speaker 1: out of the socialist tradition. Yes, you can see that 130 00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:19,516 Speaker 1: very clearly. So why did sewer socialism do as well 131 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 1: as it did do when other forms of socialism ran 132 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:24,436 Speaker 1: into problem Well because, I mean, look at the local level, 133 00:07:24,476 --> 00:07:27,396 Speaker 1: you can organize and in the Midwest, in western cities, 134 00:07:27,436 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: it was very powerful. It has a political base. I mean, 135 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 1: you can get somewhere at that local level. It's much 136 00:07:32,396 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 1: harder to do that at the state level at the 137 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:38,076 Speaker 1: national level. So these municipalities, they would elect people to Congress. 138 00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 1: Victor Berger was a socialist in Congress for a while. 139 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:44,836 Speaker 1: You see this repeatedly, in fact, you see it today. 140 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 1: In fact, what do you see with the Kazio Cortez, 141 00:07:46,636 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: for example, Congressman Kazio Cortez, you know she has a 142 00:07:49,916 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 1: following in a particular district, they can elect you to Congress. 143 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:56,996 Speaker 1: That's locally based. Socialism can get pretty far politically. So 144 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:00,876 Speaker 1: let's talk about Alexandreo Kazio Cortez and Bernie Sanders and 145 00:08:00,916 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 1: the new Democratic socialist and let's focus on a specific thing. 146 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:05,516 Speaker 1: And I want to ask you if it's a kind 147 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: of stewart socialism, and that is the policy they're pushing 148 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:12,316 Speaker 1: of medicare for all. Right, many of the Democratic candidates 149 00:08:12,716 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 1: in the primary are either opting for that or saying 150 00:08:15,356 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 1: that they think it's a good idea in principlescuarly being 151 00:08:17,636 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 1: pushed from that direction. And President Trump says Medicare for 152 00:08:21,556 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 1: all sounds like socialized medicine to sounds like socialized medicine. 153 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 1: To me, that is a form of socialism. And presumably 154 00:08:29,236 --> 00:08:33,316 Speaker 1: the Democrats who aren't self identified as democratic socialists would say, 155 00:08:33,716 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: come on, there's nothing socialist about that at all. It's 156 00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: just an opportunity for a healthcare to be paid for. 157 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,636 Speaker 1: So let me sort of ask you the point blank question, 158 00:08:43,316 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 1: is socializing medicine sort of like socializing the sewers. Is 159 00:08:48,556 --> 00:08:51,956 Speaker 1: its socialism? No? Why not? Well, look, the idea of 160 00:08:52,036 --> 00:08:54,516 Speaker 1: universal healthcare is at the center of the Democratic Party 161 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: since Harry Truman, since nineteen forty six forty seven. So 162 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:01,996 Speaker 1: this has been a traditional idea that healthcare is indeed 163 00:09:02,036 --> 00:09:04,436 Speaker 1: a right amount of privilege and the government ought to 164 00:09:04,476 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: be able to provide or help provide healthcare to everybody. 165 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: That's not a particularly position. There are many ways to 166 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:14,276 Speaker 1: get there, however, and that's where I think the Democrats 167 00:09:14,316 --> 00:09:17,276 Speaker 1: will divide and medicare for role as a single payer system, 168 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: as you know, which is very distinct from the kind 169 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:21,156 Speaker 1: of system we have now. It gets rid of a 170 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 1: private insurance company. Right. That's one version of how you 171 00:09:24,516 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: get there, But there are other versions as well. It's 172 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:29,636 Speaker 1: not so much that we have a socialist versus non 173 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:32,516 Speaker 1: socialist version of this. There are different versions of a 174 00:09:32,556 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 1: democratic what has been a Democratic Party position forever. There 175 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:39,276 Speaker 1: are different versions of how to get there. So I'm 176 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 1: now trying to channel Donald Trump running for office against 177 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 1: this policy. And let's imagine a Donald Trump, if it's 178 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: possible to imagine such a person who's taken your course 179 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:51,236 Speaker 1: and has learned about Sewer socialism yes, and says, well, yeah, 180 00:09:51,236 --> 00:09:54,236 Speaker 1: there are different kinds of programs. Some involve the private sector, 181 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,476 Speaker 1: but some say the government should take it over completely. Correct, 182 00:09:57,596 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 1: Medicare for all, it's a single payer system. It really implies, 183 00:10:01,276 --> 00:10:04,756 Speaker 1: perhaps that the government should take over healthcare completely, as 184 00:10:04,796 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 1: opposed to universal healthcare of the Obamacare type where the 185 00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 1: government repays private Insuran and he says, I think I 186 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:12,996 Speaker 1: get an A on the test. President likes to get 187 00:10:13,276 --> 00:10:14,596 Speaker 1: on tests, or it likes to believe he's gotten a 188 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:19,476 Speaker 1: on tests, because I call this genuinely a social system. Well, 189 00:10:19,756 --> 00:10:22,996 Speaker 1: I mean, you know he get a C from the course. 190 00:10:23,036 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's not completely wrong in all 191 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: of that, but the image that's given of of of 192 00:10:28,596 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: of a government run healthcare system is maybe closer to 193 00:10:32,076 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 1: the NHS, where the NHS could be in Britain, the 194 00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 1: National Health System, the National Health System Britain UM and 195 00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:41,236 Speaker 1: people's fears that the government's going to tell you you know, 196 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:43,476 Speaker 1: who your doctor is going to have to be, and 197 00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:46,796 Speaker 1: when you can get the so called death panels that 198 00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 1: Sarah Palin was talking about. You know, all of these 199 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:50,756 Speaker 1: things out there that I have nothing to do with 200 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 1: the system per se. So the image of it being 201 00:10:53,396 --> 00:10:56,756 Speaker 1: socialist is not actually the reality. The reality, however, does 202 00:10:56,796 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: in part come out of Yeah, I mean socialism is 203 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 1: a part of what has been American liberalism for a 204 00:11:02,636 --> 00:11:05,556 Speaker 1: very long time. I mean socialist characters. And I was 205 00:11:05,596 --> 00:11:09,196 Speaker 1: mentioning before people like Sidney Hillman, and to basically was 206 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 1: a certain example. Hilman above all had a lot to 207 00:11:11,636 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: do with the New Deal. A little bit about him, Well, 208 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 1: Hillman's the head of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union in 209 00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:20,996 Speaker 1: the United States, and um, he actually started off with 210 00:11:21,316 --> 00:11:23,796 Speaker 1: a little closer to the communists, but then he very 211 00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:28,316 Speaker 1: very very much you denounces them and gets rid of 212 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:30,836 Speaker 1: the communists in the labor movement as best he can. 213 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: But he is very tight with Roosevelt. I'm sorry, he's 214 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 1: very tight with Franklin Roosevelt. And you know, he has 215 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:42,076 Speaker 1: a lot to do with putting together and not just Roosevelt, 216 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:44,436 Speaker 1: but all of the New Deal people, so people like 217 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 1: Senator Robert Wagner in New York, people like Francis Perkins, 218 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:49,836 Speaker 1: Secretary of Labor. He's very close to all these people. 219 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 1: And Hillman had a great deal to do with getting 220 00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:54,956 Speaker 1: the you know, the Wagner Act, the nineteen thirty five 221 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 1: of the landmark act of collective bargaining in American history. 222 00:11:59,156 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: Hillman had a lot to do with shaping that um 223 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: the Fair Labor Labor Standards Act from nineteen thirty eight. Again, 224 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:07,156 Speaker 1: Hillman had a lot to do with all of that. 225 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 1: So then, in that view, the core accomplishments of FDR's 226 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 1: New Deal owed something to conversation and interaction with leading 227 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:22,476 Speaker 1: labor unions, labor unionists like Hillman, who were avowedly socialist, 228 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:25,916 Speaker 1: and that was normal at the time. So that leads 229 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:28,596 Speaker 1: me to the following question about FDR himself and about 230 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:31,796 Speaker 1: the New Deal. Broadly, critics of the New Deal at 231 00:12:31,796 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 1: the time. You've pointed this out called it socialist. Yes, 232 00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 1: FDR said politely, hell no. So what was FDR's response 233 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:43,916 Speaker 1: to the charge that he was a socialist? No, he 234 00:12:43,956 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 1: said he was a liberal. He said he was a Christian, 235 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 1: a Democrat, and a liberal, I think in that order. 236 00:12:48,836 --> 00:12:51,916 Speaker 1: And what did liberal mean in the Roosevelt era? It 237 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:55,156 Speaker 1: meant coming out of the progressive era, from the earlier 238 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: part of FDR's life, from when his cousin was president. 239 00:12:58,356 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: It meant seeing the federal government as having a very 240 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:05,556 Speaker 1: very large role to play in improving social welfare, taking 241 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: the constitutions, you know, preamble very seriously, that the in 242 00:13:09,316 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 1: a very positive way. So, borrowing a phrase from Bill Clinton, 243 00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:16,236 Speaker 1: could we say that liberalism meant capitalism mend it, don't 244 00:13:16,356 --> 00:13:18,076 Speaker 1: end it. Yeah, you could put it that way. Yes, 245 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: I mean it does not believe in the socialization of 246 00:13:20,356 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 1: the means of production, that's for sure. It understands that 247 00:13:22,876 --> 00:13:25,916 Speaker 1: capitalism has been the greatest wealth generating system the world 248 00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 1: has ever known. It takes all of that into account. 249 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:31,636 Speaker 1: But the point is capitalism has to be protected from 250 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: the capitalists. Left to their own devices, the capitalists will 251 00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: rain down, rack and ruin not just on the working 252 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: people of America, but on the entire system, as we saw, 253 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:44,036 Speaker 1: for example in nineteen twenty nine, nineteen thirty two. So 254 00:13:44,076 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 1: then the New Deal's version of liberalism says, let's redistribute 255 00:13:48,276 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: some wealth so that the poorest people have a safety net, 256 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 1: and let's put some restrictions on what owners and employers 257 00:13:55,156 --> 00:13:57,436 Speaker 1: can do in the context of blocking labor unions. That 258 00:13:57,516 --> 00:13:59,876 Speaker 1: gives you the National Labor Relations laws. Yeah, and then last, 259 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:02,556 Speaker 1: but not least, let's have a Securities and Exchange Commission 260 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:05,756 Speaker 1: and laws that regulate the financial markets so that they 261 00:14:05,796 --> 00:14:09,316 Speaker 1: don't play dirty. And in the process of at the 262 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 1: same time, all of these things are meant to shore up, 263 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:15,036 Speaker 1: to prop up capitalism, yes, so that it doesn't collapse 264 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:16,476 Speaker 1: in the wake of the Great Depression. It's one of 265 00:14:16,516 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: the reasons why Norman Thomas, the great socialist leader of 266 00:14:18,956 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, when asked if FDR he carried out 267 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:24,436 Speaker 1: the socialist program, he said, yeah, he carried it out. 268 00:14:24,476 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 1: He carried out on a stretcher because he took all 269 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: of those ideas and took them away from the socialist essentials, 270 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: means of production, all of that, and save capitalism with 271 00:14:36,276 --> 00:14:38,676 Speaker 1: some ideas of socialism. So in that sense you could 272 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 1: imagine the view that liberalism is almost the enemy of 273 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 1: socialism because it takes the best ideas that socialists have, 274 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 1: it implements them, and then it has the effect of 275 00:14:47,436 --> 00:14:51,836 Speaker 1: preserving capitalism rather than allowing people to become so miserable 276 00:14:51,836 --> 00:14:54,516 Speaker 1: and unhappy that they say capitalism is fundamentally broken. We 277 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:55,916 Speaker 1: want to take over the government, we want to do 278 00:14:55,956 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 1: things differently, and we want to have socialism. You can 279 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:00,036 Speaker 1: look at it that way if you were a sectarian socialist, 280 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:03,836 Speaker 1: but people like Hillman and others, and above all maybe 281 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:06,076 Speaker 1: the greatest labor leader of the twentieth century, you know, 282 00:15:06,156 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: is Walter Ruther in Detroit. I mean what they saw is, look, 283 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:14,356 Speaker 1: we're not going to have a revolution, but if we 284 00:15:14,436 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 1: can get enough of our stuff through, who cares whether 285 00:15:17,756 --> 00:15:20,996 Speaker 1: it's socialist, liberal, what have you. We're making life better 286 00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 1: for ordinary people. We're making we're expanding the social welfare. 287 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 1: That's what we're here to do. What they saw their 288 00:15:26,916 --> 00:15:30,796 Speaker 1: role as being is not an antagonism to the liberals, 289 00:15:30,876 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: not trying to overthrow the liberals, not saying the liberals 290 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 1: a role running dog imperialists, et cetera. No, they said 291 00:15:37,036 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 1: we can see a role for ourselves in trying to 292 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:42,716 Speaker 1: push and pull from within. So that brings us to 293 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 1: the current democratic socialists. And the first question I have 294 00:15:46,676 --> 00:15:51,796 Speaker 1: about them is are they really socialists? Well, it depends. 295 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:54,516 Speaker 1: I mean, when I hear, you know, Senator Sanders, for example, 296 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 1: talk about define socialism, as he did at some point 297 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:01,356 Speaker 1: during the campaign at Georgetown, effect, he says he's an 298 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:05,156 Speaker 1: FDR liberal right, So I don't know if that's socialism, 299 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: then socialism has changed. I mean, even they calling them 300 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: some socialists. I've been doing a little informal poll of 301 00:16:12,076 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: twenty some things. I know, yeah, and I have a hypothesis. 302 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: I'd like to hear it because I have no idea. 303 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:18,796 Speaker 1: I wonder what your students think about this too. So 304 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:23,156 Speaker 1: my very informal, unscientific poll was that people said, of 305 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:27,276 Speaker 1: course that the Democratic Socialists do not favor nationalizing the 306 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 1: means of production in the country. They don't want the 307 00:16:29,156 --> 00:16:31,956 Speaker 1: businesses to be taken over by the government. But they're 308 00:16:32,156 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: sick and tired of the term liberal right. They're sick 309 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,756 Speaker 1: and tired of the term progressive right. They think, and 310 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 1: you've written this that Hillary Clinton took the term progressive 311 00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: and you know, muddied it essentially by being not left enough. 312 00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:48,756 Speaker 1: And the word socialism sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like 313 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 1: I want to change things, I want to do things differently. 314 00:16:51,116 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 1: And that's a big part of Bernie Sanders appeal a 315 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:54,836 Speaker 1: cooint to this theory. And then when you take away 316 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders and you put in Alexandro Alexandro Ocasio Cortez, 317 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: now it's younger, it's hipper, it's more with it. So 318 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:02,236 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? Well, I think that's right. 319 00:17:02,276 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that liberalism had a crisis 320 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:07,076 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. Democratic Party out 321 00:17:07,116 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 1: of crisis as well, coming out of Vietnam and all 322 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 1: the rest of it, and um, the Reagan Revolution put 323 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: the Democratic liberals on the defensive and they had to 324 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 1: figure out of political strategy for themselves. And the Democrats 325 00:17:19,476 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 1: had done themselves no good either by changing their party 326 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:24,516 Speaker 1: around into a kind of conjuries of special interests. They 327 00:17:24,556 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: took away the party bosses, they ceased to be a 328 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:29,436 Speaker 1: party in the traditional sense. So coming out of all 329 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 1: of that, yeah, the Democrats had a bob and weave 330 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:35,436 Speaker 1: and triangulate, if you will, in order to just survive. Now, 331 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 1: coming out of that, the Clintons were trying, i think, 332 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 1: to give the Democratic Party a substance again, you know, 333 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 1: seeing them as very much as liberals, pushing forward, trying 334 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:49,516 Speaker 1: to expand you know, social welfare, all the rest of it, 335 00:17:49,556 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: the kinds of things with some socialism sort of in there. 336 00:17:52,516 --> 00:17:54,396 Speaker 1: People don't realize all of that, but it was the 337 00:17:54,396 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: people they were talking about, you see. But they always 338 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 1: do that they'll call anything socialism because they know it's 339 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,796 Speaker 1: a scare tactic. That's a scare word. But you know, 340 00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 1: maybe it was sca It's interesting, we'll come back to 341 00:18:05,876 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: that about whether it's blood he had to tag politically. 342 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 1: It was about politics. That's what pople don't understand about 343 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:13,436 Speaker 1: what the Clintons were about and where things were going. Now, 344 00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 1: things changed after that, change changed dramatically, particularly after two 345 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:20,396 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, after the economic collapse, 346 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:21,996 Speaker 1: which I think has a lot to do with the 347 00:18:22,036 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 1: students young people you're talking about, So people who grew 348 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:27,716 Speaker 1: up in the who have no memory of Ronald Reagan, 349 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:30,076 Speaker 1: who have no memory of what politics used to be, 350 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:33,036 Speaker 1: like what Reagan did to politics, and then who came 351 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 1: of age in the aftermath of two thousand and eight 352 00:18:34,836 --> 00:18:36,396 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. I've gone of a very different 353 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: view of all of these words and what they mean 354 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 1: than the likes of me who grew up in the 355 00:18:40,796 --> 00:18:43,796 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. So let's talk about words then. Yes, you've 356 00:18:43,796 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 1: written in Democracy Journal very powerfully. I would say that 357 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:50,556 Speaker 1: we should call things what they really are. Yes, and 358 00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 1: that the Democrats made a big mistake when they stopped 359 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,996 Speaker 1: calling themselves liberals and started calling themselves progressive. And it's 360 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: really the Clinton era where that happened. Yes, why what 361 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:02,436 Speaker 1: was wrong with that? Well, liberal had been demonized successfully 362 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:05,116 Speaker 1: by the right wing Republicans. You remember in nineteen eighty eight, 363 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 1: when George H. W. Bush was running for president, he 364 00:19:08,156 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 1: talked about the L word. He made it sound, you know, 365 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 1: like manure. He made it sound like something, you know, 366 00:19:12,876 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: so execrable that it was really excrement. That was before 367 00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:17,396 Speaker 1: the TV show the L word made it sound somewhat better. 368 00:19:17,396 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: But well that's another story. But you know, but this 369 00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:21,676 Speaker 1: is way back in nineteen eighty eight, ancient history. But 370 00:19:21,756 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 1: the word liberal was demonized. Nobody wanted to be known 371 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:28,316 Speaker 1: as the liberal right, and so the Democrats, chow happened 372 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 1: on the word progressive as a subside for all of that. Now, 373 00:19:31,356 --> 00:19:34,276 Speaker 1: progressive had been a left wing word that was very 374 00:19:34,436 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 1: very anti liberal, if you will. That was where the 375 00:19:37,196 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 1: left kind of gravitated to after the Communists had been 376 00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 1: you know, disgraced and so forth, in the aftermath of McCarthy, 377 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 1: in the mathmath of fifty six, full of that um so. 378 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:50,676 Speaker 1: But the Democrats took this all left wing word and 379 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,116 Speaker 1: made it into a kind of euphemism for liberal. They 380 00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:57,636 Speaker 1: repurposed it yet exactly now you know, that's okay. But 381 00:19:57,876 --> 00:20:00,916 Speaker 1: what happened was that when by the time you got 382 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:06,676 Speaker 1: to say, the twenty sixteen election, here was Hillary Clinton, 383 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:10,676 Speaker 1: who had this background of having to you know, having 384 00:20:10,676 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 1: to fight through the nineties and having to go through 385 00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:16,436 Speaker 1: all of those politics, but it understood that times had changed. 386 00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:19,396 Speaker 1: So she comes up with a very liberal, that is 387 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: to say, leftish liberal platform. If you read her platform, 388 00:20:24,116 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 1: it's it's much to the left of where she was 389 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:28,836 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, for sure, But she was 390 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 1: presumably pushed there very hard by Bernie Sanders in the 391 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 1: prime No, I disagree it was that was true before 392 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:37,036 Speaker 1: the primaries ever began. He then began to push her, 393 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 1: not so much with anything dramatically different. But you know, 394 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 1: if she came out for a twelve dollar minimum wage, 395 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: he would come out for a fifteen dollars minimum wage. 396 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: He would rail against the billionaire class. That's not her politics. 397 00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:52,036 Speaker 1: He brought up all of this old you know stuff, 398 00:20:52,676 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 1: and she looked she had no way to argue against it, 399 00:20:56,116 --> 00:20:58,396 Speaker 1: and she ran calling herself a progressive. He's going to 400 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:00,996 Speaker 1: progressive her any day. And so you think the mistake 401 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 1: was where was the excuse me, He's going to do 402 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 1: that rhetorically. You know, whether he's going to be able 403 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: to deliver on it's another matter. So the mistake, I 404 00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: think is that, Look, the idea of liberalism, which was 405 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:13,796 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, is a very powerful one. 406 00:21:13,796 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 1: It means up, meant Walter Ruther, it meant people like 407 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:20,636 Speaker 1: that God de Nature got lost. Um. It's a word 408 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 1: which I think is an honorable one. It's an honorable tradition. 409 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:25,716 Speaker 1: Now what I like to go back to the word 410 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:29,356 Speaker 1: using the word liberal, No, because I don't think that 411 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:31,836 Speaker 1: it's going to um, you know, on its own, it's 412 00:21:31,836 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 1: going to matter. But I do think that people calling 413 00:21:34,316 --> 00:21:38,116 Speaker 1: themselves liberal progressives, for example, as opposed to the socialist 414 00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: progressives who want to hold on to that word, there 415 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:45,316 Speaker 1: could be a fruitful, you know, exchange about all of that. 416 00:21:45,796 --> 00:21:48,236 Speaker 1: Something tells me that Kamala Harris is not going to 417 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 1: say the difference between me and Bernie Sanders is that 418 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 1: he's a socialist and I'm a liberal. She's gonna say 419 00:21:54,436 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: something else. Maybe she's gonna chase he's a progressive liberal 420 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 1: doesn't seem quite ripe yet, Okay, brought to life. That 421 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: may be true. And I'm not a political you know, 422 00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: putnent or neither am I an operative, So I don't 423 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: really know these things. I'm sure it pulls terrible So 424 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:13,396 Speaker 1: it's not a great idea. But let's not talk about 425 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:15,276 Speaker 1: let's just started what we're saying in public or on 426 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: the stump. Let's think about our own thoughts about all 427 00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 1: of this, how we conceive all of this. And I 428 00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 1: think there is a difference between people who understand what 429 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: the liberal tradition, it's richness, what it was about. Don't 430 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: trash it as just you know, neoliberal corporate blah blah. No, 431 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 1: that's not what it is. That was the way that 432 00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:33,916 Speaker 1: people referred to Hillary Clinton. She is not that she's 433 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:39,756 Speaker 1: not Margaret Thatcher to try and reown that, but to 434 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 1: do so in a spirit that, you know, these things 435 00:22:42,796 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 1: don't have to be in conflict. So if that's the case, 436 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: then how do you feel about the democratic socialists doing 437 00:22:48,916 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 1: their own bit of repurposing right. If we're right that 438 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 1: they don't believe in the old version of right, even 439 00:22:55,116 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 1: the classic deb's version of socialists, then they're using shows 440 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:02,756 Speaker 1: lists simply to say, well, we're to the left of 441 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 1: people who call themselves progressive. What do you make of that? 442 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 1: Do you think that's good? Do you think it's harmless? 443 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:11,236 Speaker 1: Do you think it's desirable? I think it's vaguely demogogic. 444 00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:14,076 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it means a whole lot um, 445 00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:16,276 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, why is the demogogic? To me? 446 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:19,596 Speaker 1: Just to be provocative, What seems demogogic is Donald Trump 447 00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 1: saying well, we will never be a socialist country. I mean, 448 00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:25,716 Speaker 1: they may be walking into the demogogue, but they're being demogrague. 449 00:23:25,916 --> 00:23:28,196 Speaker 1: There's there's more than one way to be demogogic, you 450 00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:31,716 Speaker 1: know that. Look, And so let's take the case of 451 00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:35,596 Speaker 1: another person on the left of the Democratic Party, Elizabeth Warren. 452 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren says that she's capitalist to her marrow or something, 453 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: but she's also talking about the kinds of things that 454 00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:50,236 Speaker 1: Walter Ruther was talking about. If anybody comes close interest 455 00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: in the middle class, no putting workers on boards of corporations. 456 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,916 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very Rutherian socialist idea. Now 457 00:23:57,116 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 1: she's not calling herself a socialist, but you know, the 458 00:24:00,116 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: proof of the pudding. It's in the program, is what 459 00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 1: she's talking about. She's thinking more imaginatively, I think than 460 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:08,836 Speaker 1: any of the other candidates along the kinds of lines 461 00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 1: that I think of as new deal liberalism. So if 462 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 1: that's the case, then I don't know if you would 463 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: agree with this, But maybe the takeaway should be that 464 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:19,956 Speaker 1: the terms don't matter that much. Yeah, I think that's 465 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 1: probably right. That it's all the policies and it's all 466 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 1: very well and good to try to figure out where 467 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 1: they come from. And we could try to figure out 468 00:24:25,396 --> 00:24:27,116 Speaker 1: this one comes from here, and this one comes from there, 469 00:24:27,116 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: and Stewards are a little bit socialist and putting members 470 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 1: of companies on boards a little bit socialist, but in 471 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:35,116 Speaker 1: the end they're not genuine socialism. So, you know, if 472 00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 1: someone says, who cares about this terminology? Why are you 473 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 1: guys even talking about it? What would you tell them? 474 00:24:38,996 --> 00:24:40,476 Speaker 1: I would say that you have to be careful though, 475 00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 1: because it can very easily get weaponized. And let's talk 476 00:24:43,556 --> 00:24:47,076 Speaker 1: about weaponizing that should I think what happened in twenty sixteen. 477 00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 1: I mean, you know Bernie Sanders, who is not a Democrat, 478 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:53,596 Speaker 1: who comes out of a you know, the left wing 479 00:24:53,636 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 1: of Vermont politics that he helped invent. Right, attacked at 480 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:01,876 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton as a goon of Wall Street, attacked her 481 00:25:01,916 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: in sectarian terms, which damaged her terribly going to the election. 482 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:09,116 Speaker 1: Many of the things that he said about her, Trump's 483 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:10,956 Speaker 1: said about her, Yes, making her out to be a 484 00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 1: slave of Wall Street. That's weaponizing socialism. That's turning socialism 485 00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 1: into a weapon that's trying to destroy That's another idea. 486 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: It's actually from the perspective of a Clintonite liberal, and 487 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: I think that's a perfectly fine perspective to hold. Right. 488 00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:27,996 Speaker 1: You can see how that's weaponizing in a bad way, yes, 489 00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 1: But from the perspective of a critic of Clintonite liberalism, 490 00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 1: it would be weaponizing in a good sense. Right. I mean, 491 00:25:34,996 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: that's if you want to destroy liberalism. But if the point, 492 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 1: if the point of socialisms destroy liberalism, then I think 493 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:44,556 Speaker 1: we're going down a very dangerous road, a very dangerous 494 00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:48,756 Speaker 1: because socialism might succeed in destroying liberalism because because socialism 495 00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:51,316 Speaker 1: is not going to be just supplanned liberalism as the 496 00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 1: alternative to the Donald Trump. So then the danger, so 497 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:57,636 Speaker 1: I understand correctly, is sort of what happened in your 498 00:25:57,676 --> 00:26:02,196 Speaker 1: interpretation between Sanders and Clinton. By criticizing Hillary Clinton from 499 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 1: the left, by weaponizing socialism, as you put it, Sanders 500 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: weakened Clinton, yes, helping Trump to win. Correct, that's the account. 501 00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 1: And on that view, the Democratic socialists can do that again. 502 00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:19,236 Speaker 1: They can defeat whoever is the Democratic candidate in twenty 503 00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 1: twenty by weakening that person, and then that can actually 504 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:26,156 Speaker 1: plan to Trump's head exactly. Now, look, criticizing from the 505 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:28,796 Speaker 1: left is perfectly legitimate. I don't have any problems with 506 00:26:28,836 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 1: people saying that Hillary Clinton is not was not. You know, 507 00:26:32,076 --> 00:26:34,316 Speaker 1: she should have pointed to her program more. Actually, I 508 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 1: think then she would have shown people that she was 509 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:39,036 Speaker 1: not the neoliberal hobgoblin that she was being made out 510 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 1: to be. That was a tactical mistake, indeed a strategic 511 00:26:41,676 --> 00:26:44,236 Speaker 1: mistake on her part. But that's put that to the side. 512 00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 1: Criticism on the left is healthy, it's great. We want that. 513 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:52,916 Speaker 1: When you weaponize it, however, you're being destructive. So how 514 00:26:52,956 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 1: do we draw the line. We're entering a presidential season. 515 00:26:56,556 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: We've got umpteen number of presidential candidates who've already declared right. 516 00:27:03,196 --> 00:27:06,116 Speaker 1: None thus far is running to the right of where 517 00:27:06,196 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton ran the last time around. I guess that's right. Yeah, 518 00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe there will be someone who emerges that way. Right. 519 00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:14,996 Speaker 1: Mike Bloomberg has said he's not running, and that's partly, 520 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 1: I think because he's a rational person and he could 521 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 1: only have run for the right of where Hilly Clinton 522 00:27:19,996 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: was and he doesn't see a path to the presidency 523 00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:26,196 Speaker 1: through that, correct. So let's talk in practical terms. Yes, 524 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:29,316 Speaker 1: what would it mean for Bernie Sanders for the other 525 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: Democratic Socialists to criticize legitimately from the left, in your view, 526 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 1: and what would it mean for them to dangerously weaponize 527 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:40,196 Speaker 1: in very practical terms, what's what's kosher according to a 528 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:44,436 Speaker 1: lens and what's not kosher? Yeah, I mean, it's like pornography. 529 00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 1: I know when I see it. You know what, when 530 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:50,236 Speaker 1: you see it, when you're calling someone a name, a 531 00:27:50,316 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 1: Wall Street goon or whatever whatever the language was, that's 532 00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 1: a polemic, that's that's an attack, that's destructive. If you say, Mike, 533 00:27:59,036 --> 00:28:01,316 Speaker 1: my my advers my opponent, and I disagree. I would 534 00:28:01,356 --> 00:28:03,476 Speaker 1: like to see this happen rather than that happen for 535 00:28:03,516 --> 00:28:05,876 Speaker 1: this reason. But I think that. But I think they're 536 00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:07,716 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of listeners or I hope. There 537 00:28:07,716 --> 00:28:10,876 Speaker 1: are a lot of listeners who instinctively respond to that 538 00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 1: by saying, but wait a minute, Hillary Clinton was cheek 539 00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:20,036 Speaker 1: by jowl in close relationship, absolutely with plenty of liberals. 540 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 1: To be fair, yes, on Wall Street. Yeah, there really 541 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:26,156 Speaker 1: were lots of Goldman Sachs partners making donations. Because it's 542 00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:29,716 Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable, and if you could have a reasonable conversation 543 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:32,556 Speaker 1: about that, I believe that she could actually convince many 544 00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:34,516 Speaker 1: of the people who opposed her for why that's not 545 00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 1: a terrible thing. But you could not have that conversation. 546 00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:40,396 Speaker 1: She couldn't have that conversation. It was terribly embarrassing. It 547 00:28:40,476 --> 00:28:44,036 Speaker 1: was terribly difficult given the political setting, which in fact, 548 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 1: in part the left help set up. Why can't the 549 00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:51,196 Speaker 1: radical vision just when? I mean, we have had moments 550 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 1: in American history where radical visions of conservatism have come 551 00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:58,956 Speaker 1: very close to winning definitively. Think about the Reagan era, 552 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:02,796 Speaker 1: where there were some significant pushbacks. Why and maybe you 553 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 1: could argue, well known, actually more pragmatized, that did what 554 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:08,476 Speaker 1: did he do? He didn't get rid of Social Security, 555 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 1: he didn't get rid of all of the New Deal. 556 00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:12,676 Speaker 1: I mean, Laala Reagan was an interesting character but he 557 00:29:12,716 --> 00:29:16,156 Speaker 1: was a pragmatist on the right, you know, as par excellence. 558 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:18,956 Speaker 1: I mean, look at what we've got today. Now, okay, 559 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 1: you want to see you want to see the radicals 560 00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 1: taking over. There's the Republican Party. It's become a movement, 561 00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:25,996 Speaker 1: not a party. Okay, so good. So you have a 562 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 1: radical movement that claims to have a chance of taking over. 563 00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 1: And after all, Republicans do control the Senator, and they 564 00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:34,076 Speaker 1: control the Presidency. And as you say, Republican conservatism is 565 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 1: a movement, not just a political party, and many of 566 00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:40,036 Speaker 1: its leading figures are not pragmatists. So just to push 567 00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:43,916 Speaker 1: the question, why can't the same thing happen on the left, 568 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,676 Speaker 1: you have to recognize first of all, that all America 569 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 1: is not Brooklyn. All America is not Cambridge. All America 570 00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:55,276 Speaker 1: is not Berkeley. That's number one. I mean, my daughter, 571 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:58,236 Speaker 1: I love her, she's great, she lives in Brooklyn. You know, 572 00:29:58,356 --> 00:30:01,156 Speaker 1: you'd think that you're in the people's Republic of Brooklyn. 573 00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 1: Now it's great, but it's not the rest of the world. 574 00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:07,236 Speaker 1: That's number one. So whereas I think a person on 575 00:30:07,276 --> 00:30:09,156 Speaker 1: the right could you would have a lot more to 576 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:11,436 Speaker 1: go on in terms of what America is like America 577 00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:14,156 Speaker 1: is a much more conservative country. Thank you very much, 578 00:30:14,436 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 1: great to be here, very good. Sewer socialism. That's a 579 00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:27,516 Speaker 1: phrase I admit I had never heard before Sean Willens 580 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 1: described it to us, and it's really remarkable to me 581 00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:34,196 Speaker 1: because it seems to capture in the most fundamental way 582 00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: something about socialism that has never come up in the 583 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,596 Speaker 1: course of our big debate about whether America could ever 584 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 1: be a socialist country and whether the Democratic Socialists or 585 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:46,156 Speaker 1: onto something brand new. It's the idea that socialism has always, 586 00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: in fact been with us here in the United States, 587 00:30:49,236 --> 00:30:51,796 Speaker 1: every time we make a choice about whether something should 588 00:30:51,796 --> 00:30:54,436 Speaker 1: be done by the government or whether that thing should 589 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 1: be done by the private sector. So maybe it is 590 00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: socialist to say that we should have medicare for all, 591 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:04,276 Speaker 1: But so what, maybe that's just as socialist as saying 592 00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 1: that the sewers should be run by the government instead 593 00:31:06,436 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 1: of buy a private, for profit company. Going deep into 594 00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:13,476 Speaker 1: the history of socialism in America and into the question 595 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:16,876 Speaker 1: of the terms that we use taught me to realize 596 00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: that there's more to our tradition than meets the eye. 597 00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:23,116 Speaker 1: Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 598 00:31:23,156 --> 00:31:26,516 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Genecott, with engineering by Jason Gambrel and 599 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:30,476 Speaker 1: Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music 600 00:31:30,556 --> 00:31:33,796 Speaker 1: is composed by Luis Gera special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, 601 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:37,836 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. 602 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,476 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Noah R Feldman. 603 00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:42,236 Speaker 1: This is deep background