WEBVTT - A Top Obama Official on Police Brutality 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.036 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:25.076 --> 0:00:28.476 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.916 --> 0:00:33.036 I'm Noah Feldman. For the past week, there have been protests, 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:38.516 mass demonstrations, rallies, and looting all around the country. All 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:42.036 of this protest began in an immediate sense with the 0:00:42.076 --> 0:00:45.276 death of an African American man, George Floyd, whose last 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:48.236 moments were captured on video. He was being held down 0:00:48.276 --> 0:00:50.676 by a white police officer who was arresting him. The 0:00:50.756 --> 0:00:54.836 officer's knee was on his neck. Here to discuss policing 0:00:54.956 --> 0:00:57.716 civil rights and what can be done to improve the 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:01.716 dire situation we're in is Venita Gupta. She's the president 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:04.756 of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, which 0:01:04.796 --> 0:01:08.916 is the country's largest civil rights coalition. Under the Obama administration, 0:01:09.116 --> 0:01:12.596 she was the acting Assistant Attorney General running the US 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:16.196 Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division. That means she was 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.316 the chief civil rights prosecutor in the United States. Before that, 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:22.196 she worked at the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund 0:01:22.396 --> 0:01:25.156 and at the ACLU. Venita, thank you so much for 0:01:25.236 --> 0:01:29.356 joining me. This is an extraordinary and extraordinarily upsetting time 0:01:29.436 --> 0:01:30.716 for a lot of people, and I just want to 0:01:30.716 --> 0:01:36.196 start by asking you, how is it that after years 0:01:36.196 --> 0:01:39.636 of consciousness raising by Black Lives Matter and other organizations, 0:01:40.196 --> 0:01:45.356 we're still in a situation where an event like the 0:01:45.396 --> 0:01:51.756 tragic death of George Floyd in Minnesota can trigger circumstances 0:01:51.756 --> 0:01:54.796 like brand Well, I think we as a country have 0:01:54.916 --> 0:01:58.676 been saddled with the problem of police violence and state 0:01:58.796 --> 0:02:02.836 violence against black communities in particular since our funding. And 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:09.836 while one can argue that there's been progress in certain places, 0:02:10.796 --> 0:02:14.836 these are issues that are pretty confounding for the country. 0:02:14.916 --> 0:02:18.756 And you look at that video of mister Floyd on 0:02:18.756 --> 0:02:21.356 the ground with four officers on him, one of them 0:02:21.436 --> 0:02:27.236 on his neck, you know, where witnesses and community members 0:02:27.276 --> 0:02:31.156 are pleading for the officer to get off of him 0:02:31.276 --> 0:02:34.196 and the like. There's just no way to look at 0:02:34.236 --> 0:02:37.596 that and not be profoundly outrage And that's the pain 0:02:37.636 --> 0:02:40.516 that you're seeing out lying on the street. And we 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:43.436 have we don't have perfect police departments, so we still 0:02:43.476 --> 0:02:47.356 have really deep problems of systemic racism in our justice 0:02:47.356 --> 0:02:50.636 system in policing that we have not yet addressed. And 0:02:51.756 --> 0:02:54.396 there are a number of reasons for this, but there's 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:58.876 no question that policing, in racial justice, in public safety 0:02:58.996 --> 0:03:04.356 remain really tense issues that we often just kind of 0:03:04.436 --> 0:03:07.196 push under the rug, and then they flare up when 0:03:07.196 --> 0:03:10.916 you have incidents like mister Floyd's, because they resonate in 0:03:10.956 --> 0:03:13.956 so many communities as to the spear for the kind 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:19.516 of harassment or problematic broken relationships that exist in too 0:03:19.516 --> 0:03:23.396 many communities. With regards to law enforcement, the Civil Rights 0:03:23.396 --> 0:03:26.036 Division of the Department of Justice, which you ran during 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:29.116 a chunk of the Obama administration, of course, has the 0:03:29.196 --> 0:03:32.516 legal authority to come in and prosecute when police go 0:03:32.596 --> 0:03:37.316 too far. What about the systematic approaches to trying to 0:03:37.316 --> 0:03:39.676 solve what you were describing as a systemic problem. What 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:43.076 efforts did you make, you and your teammate during the 0:03:43.116 --> 0:03:47.676 Obama administration of the police brutality question more generally, and 0:03:47.716 --> 0:03:51.036 then I'll ask you what became of those efforts. So 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:56.076 in the Obama Justice Department, there was a real understanding 0:03:56.316 --> 0:04:01.276 that Congress gave the Justice Department in nineteen ninety four 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:05.036 the authority to investigate police departments for systemic misconduct. This 0:04:05.236 --> 0:04:09.476 came out of the Broadney King beating in in Los 0:04:09.516 --> 0:04:15.076 Angeles and an investigation of the LAPD and this jurisdiction 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:18.996 has been always judiciously used, but it was one that 0:04:19.036 --> 0:04:23.196 the Obama Justice Department took seriously open twenty five investigations 0:04:23.196 --> 0:04:27.156 into major police departments. At the time that the end 0:04:27.196 --> 0:04:30.036 of the administration ruled around, we had consent decrees in 0:04:30.076 --> 0:04:33.716 fifteen cities across the country, and these consent decrees had 0:04:33.756 --> 0:04:37.916 really become the basis for our best practices for triggering 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:41.276 really hard conversations in law enforcement. But as you know, 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:44.516 I came into the Justice Department just weeks after Michael 0:04:44.516 --> 0:04:46.876 Brown had been killed in Ferguson, and the country was 0:04:47.036 --> 0:04:52.356 ablaze quite literally around the same questions that the country's 0:04:52.356 --> 0:04:55.476 contending with right now. And we had a president who 0:04:55.516 --> 0:04:59.956 in his final years really dug in on race and 0:05:00.116 --> 0:05:03.956 justice and policing in a way that I think was 0:05:04.876 --> 0:05:11.836 pretty stark, and understood how important it was for people 0:05:11.876 --> 0:05:14.196 to have for communities of cloud, for black communities to 0:05:14.236 --> 0:05:17.236 have some faith in the legal system as providing justice. 0:05:17.836 --> 0:05:20.156 But we needed There's been a lot of focus on 0:05:20.196 --> 0:05:23.036 the fact that there's been two little criminal accountability of 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:26.356 officers when they engage in this misconduct. But I've always 0:05:26.356 --> 0:05:29.996 thought that the criminal accountability, while absolutely crucial to giving 0:05:30.036 --> 0:05:34.876 people faith in the legal system, is not sufficient, and 0:05:34.916 --> 0:05:37.676 that these pattern and practice investigations are really aimed at 0:05:37.716 --> 0:05:41.756 getting at systemic, entrenched problems and police departments that can't 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:44.636 be fixed overnight or with a single criminal prosecution. And 0:05:44.676 --> 0:05:47.756 so we did these investigations, and we had these consent 0:05:47.796 --> 0:05:52.876 decrees around the country. It was pretty obvious when when 0:05:52.916 --> 0:05:57.716 President Trump nominated Jeff Sessions to head up the Justice 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:01.716 Department's Attorney General the direction that all of this would go, 0:06:01.916 --> 0:06:06.876 which was South Attorney General Sessions from a minute he 0:06:06.996 --> 0:06:10.836 came in, actually even where he was confirmed, trying to 0:06:10.836 --> 0:06:15.116 get the Justice Department out of a very intense negotiation 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:17.956 for a Baltimore consent decree. And we were in this 0:06:18.076 --> 0:06:22.116 strange position in February of twenty seventeen where the Justice 0:06:22.156 --> 0:06:25.516 Department was trying to get out of this consent decree 0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:30.276 and arguing federalism to the federal court in Baltimore and 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:33.996 the police commissioner and mayor in Baltimore. We're saying, no, no, no, 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:36.676 we need this consent decree to be able to rebuild 0:06:36.676 --> 0:06:41.156 trust in the city of Baltimore. And they have systematically 0:06:41.236 --> 0:06:45.476 both under Sessions and Bar stematically gutted the work of 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:50.676 the Civil Rights Division, dismantling police reform efforts, halting to 0:06:50.916 --> 0:06:55.316 almost a complete halt except in one tiny investigation, but 0:06:55.476 --> 0:07:00.436 halting all police investigations. They gutted. Jeff Sessions on his 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:06.396 way out of his firing, left a memo behind basically 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:09.236 making it almost impossible for the Civil Rights Division to 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:13.636 to get consent decrees against local jurisdictions. And so we've 0:07:13.636 --> 0:07:16.956 had a series of all of these, the kind of 0:07:16.996 --> 0:07:20.636 gutting of this work, coupled with rhetoric and a bully 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:25.236 pulpit that is from the President to Sessions and bar 0:07:25.396 --> 0:07:31.996 giving speeches that basically, you know, really foster not only 0:07:32.036 --> 0:07:35.036 in US versus them mentality, But I would go so 0:07:35.076 --> 0:07:37.956 far as to say, even you know, Trump in twenty 0:07:37.956 --> 0:07:42.236 seventeen encouraging police violence of suspects and the like. And 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:45.556 this is a very very dangerous place for the country 0:07:45.556 --> 0:07:47.836 to be in in this moment. Can we drill down 0:07:47.876 --> 0:07:50.676 into what a best practices consent to create ought to 0:07:50.716 --> 0:07:52.596 look like, because I mean, some of those do remain 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:56.916 in place, and they also raise at least of possibility 0:07:57.156 --> 0:07:59.956 of providing a model for what ought to be done 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:01.756 going forward. It's not going to come out of this 0:08:01.796 --> 0:08:05.316 Department of Justice, obviously, but there will be other administrations, 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:08.676 one hopes, in the future. So what is the content 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:11.836 in your you of best practices? What should departments do 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:15.756 when they don't want to have events like this take place? Well, 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:19.836 I the consent decrease all look very different from each other. 0:08:19.956 --> 0:08:24.116 They're really important, rich documents, but they look different from 0:08:24.156 --> 0:08:27.276 each other because policing is inherently local. We have eighteen 0:08:27.316 --> 0:08:31.356 thousand police departments in this country, and so policing in 0:08:31.396 --> 0:08:34.516 this country is local, but it is bound by the constitution. 0:08:34.676 --> 0:08:42.476 And these consent decrease covered topics like supervision systems, accountability systems, 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:46.676 efforts to stop racially biased policing through changing policies and 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:52.676 training around stop and searches, arrests practices, looking at officer 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:55.636 wellness to deal with stress on the job that can 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:59.556 create very bad conditions for certain officers on the beat, 0:09:00.036 --> 0:09:05.676 looking at problems with excessive use of force in putting 0:09:05.756 --> 0:09:12.116 in de escalation policies, time communication, space mechanisms to de escalate, 0:09:12.196 --> 0:09:15.036 and the like. But every one of these looks different 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:19.316 because they are fueled by they don't come about until 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:23.756 the Justice Department has engaged in intense investigation, looking at 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:28.596 every record, interviewing hundreds and hundreds of police officers, community activists, 0:09:28.716 --> 0:09:35.316 leaders people, residents that really describe what is happening in 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.036 the policing in that particular city, and then coming up 0:09:38.076 --> 0:09:41.796 with solutions tailored to that city. The Leadership Conference last 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:44.476 year actually issued a report called the New Era of 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:48.236 Public Safety that aggregated a lot of the best practices 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:53.796 in that document, in consent decrees, in DOJ research, in 0:09:53.916 --> 0:09:57.076 research from the International Association Chiefs of Police and civil 0:09:57.116 --> 0:10:02.036 rights organizations in order to really provide communities on the 0:10:02.076 --> 0:10:04.956 ground with the kinds of tools and best practices learnings 0:10:04.956 --> 0:10:07.516 that came from these consent decrees, in part because the 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:10.356 Justice Department has literally walked away from this work, and 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:13.476 so we wanted to be able to provide those tools. 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:16.236 But this is some of the flavor of what is 0:10:16.316 --> 0:10:21.316 in any particular consent decree, And just by example, with Chicago, 0:10:21.516 --> 0:10:26.596 Chicago Police Department long and storing history of systemic misconduct, 0:10:27.076 --> 0:10:31.116 we really went deep into the problems of accountability, the 0:10:31.196 --> 0:10:36.476 lack of accountability systems, lack of supervisory consistency, the lack 0:10:36.556 --> 0:10:40.356 of adequate training, and accountability on use of force and 0:10:40.396 --> 0:10:42.396 accessive use of force. So that's just to give you 0:10:43.116 --> 0:10:45.796 some examples. Veneda, when I hear you say that there 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:48.476 are eighteen thousand police departments in the United States and 0:10:48.556 --> 0:10:50.876 that there were fifteen consent decrees put in place by 0:10:50.876 --> 0:10:54.156 the Obama administration, of the enormous disparity in those numbers 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:57.636 really makes me think the solution can't be the kind 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:02.116 of nuanced, case by case, individually negotiated agreement then approved 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:03.956 by a court, which is a consent decree. There if 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:06.836 we really are serious about a systemic problem, it needs 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:09.036 to be addressed systematically. So I want to ask you, 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:14.116 imagine a democratic Congress, imagine a democratic president and a 0:11:14.156 --> 0:11:17.596 will to make fundamental change At the national level. Could 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:21.996 there be federal legislation that would operate wholesale, not just retail, 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:26.876 that would, through let's say conditioning receipt of federal funds 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:32.956 on reorganization, lead to the kinds of changes in supervision, accountability, 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:36.516 de escalation, and so forth at a national level. Is 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:39.516 that something that's doable, is it something that's desirable? And 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:42.156 what would it look like if so? Yeah, So before 0:11:42.476 --> 0:11:44.556 I want to answer this question, but I want to 0:11:45.196 --> 0:11:48.316 it's really important to mention that the patter and practice 0:11:48.356 --> 0:11:50.996 tool that the Justice Department has is just one tool 0:11:51.156 --> 0:11:56.836 of many that it has to incentivize reform. The Justice 0:11:56.876 --> 0:12:01.516 Department uses has a Cops Office, a Community Oriented Policing 0:12:01.516 --> 0:12:05.836 Services Office that has a host of different programs, Technical Assistance, 0:12:06.236 --> 0:12:10.236 Collaborative reform. These were programs that back the Obama administration 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:14.596 were well funded and really helped push departments at a 0:12:14.716 --> 0:12:18.396 much greater scale to engage in reform. They produced research 0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:21.756 that was out for the field, convening authority with chiefs 0:12:21.756 --> 0:12:24.116 from around the country that would come together to talk 0:12:24.156 --> 0:12:27.036 through best practices and what they were doing. But also 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:31.036 in the aftermath of Ferguson, President Obama are recognizing, you know, 0:12:31.116 --> 0:12:34.236 just how widespread this problem is and how many police 0:12:34.236 --> 0:12:38.716 departments there are launched the twenty first Century Policing Task 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:41.636 Force that over the course of three months came up 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:45.596 with best practices and then can started to convene twenty 0:12:45.676 --> 0:12:49.116 thirty forty chiefs once a week for the next several 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:52.396 years to literally dig in on this report and engage 0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:57.676 how these chiefs were actually implementing the outcomes and best 0:12:57.716 --> 0:13:00.996 practices in this report. And so it is not one 0:13:01.236 --> 0:13:03.676 tool or tactic that is going to win the day. 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:07.236 You have to have sustained leadership that is pushing on 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:10.316 this in a way that obviously wet now, but if 0:13:10.316 --> 0:13:13.196 you look at this, this is part of what is needed. 0:13:13.476 --> 0:13:16.076 The Justice Department is going to need. A new Justice 0:13:16.156 --> 0:13:21.476 Department will need to reinvigorate all of these tools, but 0:13:21.556 --> 0:13:24.476 I also think needs to go beyond what it already exists. 0:13:24.476 --> 0:13:29.236 So we need to have a justice department that reinvigorates 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:32.516 the community relations service that played such a profound role 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:35.156 in nineteen sixty eight. In the late sixties, it's been 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:39.756 really gutted, but in maintaining and building relationships locally on 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:43.956 the ground when unrest breaks through. We need to have laws, 0:13:43.996 --> 0:13:46.676 federal laws that are actually in place that provide for 0:13:46.836 --> 0:13:51.556 minimum national use of force standards. We need a national 0:13:51.596 --> 0:13:54.916 Registry of Police and miss conducts in a national registry 0:13:55.036 --> 0:14:00.396 that documents officers that have been fired for disciplinary reasons 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:03.316 or excessive use of force, so that these officers are 0:14:03.356 --> 0:14:06.916 just not cycling around between department to department getting hired 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:10.876 despite their own records in law enforcement. We need to 0:14:10.916 --> 0:14:13.836 expand the federal charging options. This is you know, it 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:16.476 used to be a controversial topic, but I just don't 0:14:16.516 --> 0:14:20.716 see how we can proceed and give the It is 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:23.956 the fact that the Justice Department and federal prosecutors have 0:14:24.716 --> 0:14:27.956 one statute with the highest criminal intense standard in it 0:14:27.996 --> 0:14:31.556 in order to prosecute officers who engage in this conduct. 0:14:32.116 --> 0:14:35.116 It doesn't make sense and it has let It is 0:14:35.156 --> 0:14:38.396 meant that the Justice Department has had to decline prosecution 0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:42.396 in cases that they shouldn't have had to given um, 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:45.516 given kind of how reckless the behavior was. So right now, 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:49.516 there's a it's a standard that requires proving specifically that 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:54.196 not only was the use of force unreasonable, but that 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:57.156 um that the officer knew at the time that he 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.836 or she was violating a constitutional right of a person, 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:02.676 that they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:07.476 And we need more charging options for prosecutors. These are 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:09.876 just some of the things that I think states and 0:15:10.076 --> 0:15:13.916 Congress ultimately need to take up. Even as we talk 0:15:13.996 --> 0:15:17.716 about reinvigorating a Justice Department and all of the tools 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:19.996 that has and you talk about the spending clause issue, 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:23.636 this is something that has been raised a lot about 0:15:23.716 --> 0:15:26.316 what is the power of the federal government's purse, which 0:15:26.356 --> 0:15:30.076 provides money out of the Justice Department to every police 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:34.556 department in the country. How can that power be used 0:15:34.596 --> 0:15:39.636 to incentivize um better policing, And in some cases there's 0:15:39.676 --> 0:15:43.756 been conversations about mandating better policing, better data collection, and 0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:45.996 I think this is a this is a question that 0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:49.156 we have not reckoned with and I don't think that 0:15:49.196 --> 0:15:52.396 it is we have to put this on the table now, 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:56.476 and it's something that has been politically toxic before in 0:15:56.556 --> 0:15:59.476 prior times. But I think the fact that we don't 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:04.316 even aren't even able to collect data on officer involved fatalities, 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:08.436 I think is a real travesty. We'll be read back. 0:16:18.476 --> 0:16:21.196 I want to ask you about the historical patterns that 0:16:21.236 --> 0:16:27.196 are essentially starting to emerge now. The Rodney King police 0:16:27.196 --> 0:16:31.596 brutality event, followed by the Los Angeles riots, then the 0:16:31.676 --> 0:16:37.636 Ferguson riots, then now the riots that are spread all 0:16:37.636 --> 0:16:40.116 over the country, just beginning in Minneapolis but not spreading 0:16:40.116 --> 0:16:43.116 all over the country. These have become kind of recurrent events. 0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:45.396 And I suppose it could even go back before then 0:16:45.636 --> 0:16:47.676 and go back to the nineteen sixty eight riots if 0:16:47.676 --> 0:16:50.116 one wanted to push the historical model back before and 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:53.476 I'm omitting some smaller instances, but these are the big 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:57.476 national kind of cataclysmic riots. They're now a part of 0:16:57.516 --> 0:17:02.076 the American historical trajectory. What is your deep instinct about 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:06.236 what can be done to address this recurring phenomenon? And 0:17:06.276 --> 0:17:08.036 the reason I ask is, you know, we could imagine 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:10.996 Joe Biden becoming president, then you become attorney general or 0:17:10.996 --> 0:17:13.876 deputy attorney general, and the president says to you, look, 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:15.836 you know, take the leadership on this. We don't want 0:17:15.876 --> 0:17:19.756 this to happen anymore. We want something that's transformative. All 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:22.556 of the sort of policy oriented approaches that you're describing 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.996 all seem valuable and worthwhile, do any of them get 0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:29.516 at this kind of core recurring phenomenon? Is this the 0:17:29.636 --> 0:17:33.756 kind of problem that can be solved or addressed through 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:40.116 those kind of cautious, incremental, rational, very Obama like interventions. So, 0:17:40.196 --> 0:17:41.836 I mean, some of the things that I've talked about 0:17:41.876 --> 0:17:45.756 would actually be pretty transformative, about having minimum national use 0:17:45.756 --> 0:17:50.556 of force standards and things that things that actually may 0:17:50.596 --> 0:17:52.956 seem like words on a page but that don't exist 0:17:52.956 --> 0:17:55.756 and have never existed in our nation in this way. 0:17:55.796 --> 0:17:58.996 But you know, I have said this a lot to people, 0:17:59.036 --> 0:18:02.156 which is that there is no silver bullet solution, and 0:18:02.236 --> 0:18:05.436 I know that is deeply dissatisfying to people, but there 0:18:05.436 --> 0:18:08.756 truly isn't in policing. The structure of policing in this 0:18:08.836 --> 0:18:12.556 kind of tree, with eighteen thousand police departments, the long 0:18:12.716 --> 0:18:17.596 history of structural racism and state violence in particular against 0:18:17.636 --> 0:18:20.436 block communities. These are this is the legacy that we 0:18:20.476 --> 0:18:22.756 are saddled with, and we are saddled with a legal 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:27.116 system that is that won't be allowed for a single 0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:32.036 silver bullet. It's going to take transformative, bold thinking. It 0:18:32.156 --> 0:18:34.596 is not going to be enough for a Biden administration 0:18:34.716 --> 0:18:38.116 or any administration to basically say, let's let's reinstate all 0:18:38.156 --> 0:18:40.716 that President Obama did and then cross our fingers and 0:18:40.756 --> 0:18:43.876 hope for the best. Because that's enough. We have to 0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:46.916 go away beyond what we were able to achieve in 0:18:46.916 --> 0:18:50.796 the Obama administration. This is the kinds of things that 0:18:50.836 --> 0:18:54.116 we are putting on the table now are require bold, 0:18:54.276 --> 0:18:57.636 new thinking. But it is going to take multiple efforts. 0:18:57.636 --> 0:18:59.556 It's going to take work at the part on the 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:02.756 part of mayors in cities. It's going to take work 0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:05.596 on the part of police chief to actually implement much 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:07.836 of what is known to be best practices. There is 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:11.516 still tremendous resistance, mostly coming from police unions, but also 0:19:11.636 --> 0:19:14.636 from leadership. You know in certain parts of the country 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:17.716 that are resistant. But I would say the law enforcement 0:19:17.796 --> 0:19:20.556 leadership around the country is in a different place today 0:19:20.556 --> 0:19:22.596 than they were in twenty fourteen. And it may be 0:19:22.796 --> 0:19:25.516 cold comfort right now, but I take that as some 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:30.396 modicum of progress. It's going to take Congress passing some 0:19:30.516 --> 0:19:33.876 sweeping laws around the stuff and policing. For some reason, 0:19:34.036 --> 0:19:38.036 you know, there's been this surge of bipartisanship around chronal 0:19:38.156 --> 0:19:41.516 justice reform. Policing is never a part of these conversations. 0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:44.356 You can't talk about policing without talking about race in 0:19:44.356 --> 0:19:48.196 a really frontal way. And so there isn't a silver bullet, Noah. 0:19:48.676 --> 0:19:51.156 But I don't think also the answer is just like 0:19:51.276 --> 0:19:53.556 return to what we were doing before in a more 0:19:54.116 --> 0:19:59.356 liberal or democratic administration. It's actually going to take like serious, progressive, 0:19:59.436 --> 0:20:04.116 bold thinking based on what we know today. And in 0:20:04.236 --> 0:20:06.196 the end of the day, there is never going to 0:20:06.276 --> 0:20:08.756 be a perfect police department. There are going to be 0:20:09.156 --> 0:20:13.556 critical awful tragedies that happen, and the difference will be 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:16.796 what the police department and what police departments around the 0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:21.196 country do about it versus kind of the defiance or 0:20:21.236 --> 0:20:24.156 resistance that we have seen in parts of the country 0:20:24.196 --> 0:20:26.996 in response to these events. And I think that's part 0:20:27.116 --> 0:20:29.556 that requires a racial reckoning, and we're kind of reckoning 0:20:29.556 --> 0:20:32.996 with our history even as we change laws, engage in 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:38.036 deep thinking and reform efforts those at the local, state, 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:42.116 and national level. One of the tragic features that we're 0:20:42.156 --> 0:20:45.116 seeing now in real time is that there are peaceful 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:49.556 protests demanding reform and change when it's light out, and 0:20:49.636 --> 0:20:52.836 then at night there's looting. And without entering into the 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:55.196 very difficult to answer question of who's responsible for the 0:20:55.196 --> 0:20:57.156 looting and whether their community outside is, whether they're from 0:20:57.196 --> 0:20:59.476 the far left or from the far right, I just 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:01.756 want to ask you what is the appropriate, from your 0:21:01.796 --> 0:21:06.556 perspective and civil rights respecting police response to the looting, 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:09.556 because one thing that we're seeing is that in that 0:21:09.756 --> 0:21:13.676 you know, police are becoming increasingly aggressive and violent. But 0:21:13.756 --> 0:21:16.356 that just begs the question of what should the police 0:21:16.396 --> 0:21:18.476 be doing when they see looting. I'm not talking about 0:21:18.556 --> 0:21:22.356 response to peaceful demonstrations, but to actual violent looting. Well, 0:21:22.516 --> 0:21:25.036 I think we have to be clear that there is 0:21:25.556 --> 0:21:29.996 most people are peacefully protesting, even at night. And what's 0:21:30.036 --> 0:21:33.516 happening is that you've got now, you know, increasingly, as 0:21:33.596 --> 0:21:36.676 night after night goes of forces at play that have 0:21:36.796 --> 0:21:40.316 nothing to do with mister Floyd's death, that are instigating 0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:42.716 acts of violence around the country. And there's been so 0:21:42.756 --> 0:21:48.956 many videos of black protesters and activists, you know, getting 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:53.636 mad at at so called white allies for defacing buildings 0:21:53.716 --> 0:21:55.956 and putting things on fire and the like. And I 0:21:55.996 --> 0:22:00.356 am really distrusted about this, as are so many and 0:22:00.396 --> 0:22:02.196 I think that that is something that you have to 0:22:02.236 --> 0:22:04.596 talk about when you're talking about what's happening on the 0:22:04.596 --> 0:22:07.276 streets right now, because most of that has nothing to 0:22:07.316 --> 0:22:10.556 do with honoring mister Floyd's staff and the issues underlying it. 0:22:10.956 --> 0:22:13.876 But I also think look at law enforcement, it isn't 0:22:13.916 --> 0:22:16.516 that they started acting aggressively in a lot of cities 0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:19.636 just two three days ago when the protests started to surge. 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:23.956 There was a lot of militarized response. Um the leadership 0:22:23.996 --> 0:22:28.676 conference with the NAACP, the National Urban League, the NAACP 0:22:28.796 --> 0:22:31.556 Legal defenseman and other civil rights organizations wrote a letter 0:22:31.676 --> 0:22:34.596 to the mayor and the police chief in Minneapolis about 0:22:35.516 --> 0:22:38.356 about ways to make sure that they can protect the 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:42.556 protesters right to the First Amendment while protecting public safety. Um, 0:22:42.796 --> 0:22:47.716 you know, using tear gas unnecessarily on peaceful protesters. Um uh, 0:22:47.996 --> 0:22:51.276 you know, not having a militarized response. These were some 0:22:51.276 --> 0:22:53.996 of the things we were talking about early on when 0:22:54.796 --> 0:22:56.956 when we weren't seeing what's playing out in the streets 0:22:57.036 --> 0:23:00.276 right now and in tuning these cities, that aggressive response 0:23:00.476 --> 0:23:04.396 was happening very early on, that inflamed what was happening 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:07.156 on the street. But of course law enforcement has to 0:23:07.196 --> 0:23:10.876 be able to protect operate from being burnt into faced 0:23:10.996 --> 0:23:15.156 and uh. And the question is are they making you know, 0:23:15.556 --> 0:23:19.156 just kind of reinstigating or throwing fuel on the fire 0:23:19.796 --> 0:23:25.156 around engaging in excessive force or excessive use of arrest 0:23:25.276 --> 0:23:28.476 to do that. I think community leaders are speaking out 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:31.436 calling for peace. There are civil rights leaders calling for peace. 0:23:31.476 --> 0:23:33.636 There are activists on the ground that are saying this 0:23:33.716 --> 0:23:36.516 is not in George Floyd's name. But I think we 0:23:36.596 --> 0:23:39.036 have to be really clear eyed about like the dynamics 0:23:39.156 --> 0:23:43.516 on the street without you know, re emphasizing or reasserting 0:23:43.596 --> 0:23:45.996 kind of an US versus them mentality here, because it 0:23:46.116 --> 0:23:51.356 is very, very complicated. The Bonna Justice Department conducted after 0:23:51.476 --> 0:23:56.276 action assessments of how police were managing the protests that 0:23:56.636 --> 0:23:59.996 on occasion turned violent, h you know, in Ferguson and 0:24:00.076 --> 0:24:03.036 the like in Minneapolis, even after Jamar Clark was killed, 0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:07.916 you know, like the pandemic reports that were shelved and 0:24:07.916 --> 0:24:11.316 are been collecting dusk in the Trump administration, I don't 0:24:11.316 --> 0:24:14.556 think that this Justice Department is looking at what was 0:24:14.676 --> 0:24:18.276 learned in those prior incidents and encouraging law enforcement to 0:24:18.356 --> 0:24:20.956 de escalate and to find the ways to both protect 0:24:21.076 --> 0:24:24.636 protesters and protect public safety in this moment. Do you 0:24:24.636 --> 0:24:28.516 think the protests at this point have gotten beyond the 0:24:28.716 --> 0:24:33.996 straightforward demand for black people's lives to be respected and 0:24:34.036 --> 0:24:36.876 honored by the police, and have sort of come to 0:24:36.916 --> 0:24:41.316 stand more broadly for not only structural injustice, but also 0:24:41.476 --> 0:24:44.396 more general frustration that many people around the country are 0:24:44.596 --> 0:24:46.196 feeling with a lack of change. And the reason I 0:24:46.236 --> 0:24:49.076 ask that is that when I talk to my students, 0:24:49.156 --> 0:24:51.556 of course they acknowledge that the core claim of black 0:24:51.556 --> 0:24:55.436 Lives Matter is that the police ought not to engage 0:24:55.476 --> 0:24:58.756 in brutal and unlawful forms of policing. They kill people 0:24:58.756 --> 0:25:01.316 to kill black people. But they also say and that's 0:25:01.316 --> 0:25:04.276