1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. For the past week, there have been protests, 4 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:38,516 Speaker 1: mass demonstrations, rallies, and looting all around the country. All 5 00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 1: of this protest began in an immediate sense with the 6 00:00:42,076 --> 00:00:45,276 Speaker 1: death of an African American man, George Floyd, whose last 7 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: moments were captured on video. He was being held down 8 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 1: by a white police officer who was arresting him. The 9 00:00:50,756 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 1: officer's knee was on his neck. Here to discuss policing 10 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: civil rights and what can be done to improve the 11 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: dire situation we're in is Venita Gupta. She's the president 12 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:04,756 Speaker 1: of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, which 13 00:01:04,796 --> 00:01:08,916 Speaker 1: is the country's largest civil rights coalition. Under the Obama administration, 14 00:01:09,116 --> 00:01:12,596 Speaker 1: she was the acting Assistant Attorney General running the US 15 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division. That means she was 16 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: the chief civil rights prosecutor in the United States. Before that, 17 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:22,196 Speaker 1: she worked at the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund 18 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:25,156 Speaker 1: and at the ACLU. Venita, thank you so much for 19 00:01:25,236 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 1: joining me. This is an extraordinary and extraordinarily upsetting time 20 00:01:29,436 --> 00:01:30,716 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and I just want to 21 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:36,196 Speaker 1: start by asking you, how is it that after years 22 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:39,636 Speaker 1: of consciousness raising by Black Lives Matter and other organizations, 23 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 1: we're still in a situation where an event like the 24 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: tragic death of George Floyd in Minnesota can trigger circumstances 25 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: like brand Well, I think we as a country have 26 00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:58,676 Speaker 1: been saddled with the problem of police violence and state 27 00:01:58,796 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: violence against black communities in particular since our funding. And 28 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:09,836 Speaker 1: while one can argue that there's been progress in certain places, 29 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: these are issues that are pretty confounding for the country. 30 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 1: And you look at that video of mister Floyd on 31 00:02:18,756 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: the ground with four officers on him, one of them 32 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: on his neck, you know, where witnesses and community members 33 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:31,156 Speaker 1: are pleading for the officer to get off of him 34 00:02:31,276 --> 00:02:34,196 Speaker 1: and the like. There's just no way to look at 35 00:02:34,236 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 1: that and not be profoundly outrage And that's the pain 36 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 1: that you're seeing out lying on the street. And we 37 00:02:40,796 --> 00:02:43,436 Speaker 1: have we don't have perfect police departments, so we still 38 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:47,356 Speaker 1: have really deep problems of systemic racism in our justice 39 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:50,636 Speaker 1: system in policing that we have not yet addressed. And 40 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 1: there are a number of reasons for this, but there's 41 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 1: no question that policing, in racial justice, in public safety 42 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:04,356 Speaker 1: remain really tense issues that we often just kind of 43 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:07,196 Speaker 1: push under the rug, and then they flare up when 44 00:03:07,196 --> 00:03:10,916 Speaker 1: you have incidents like mister Floyd's, because they resonate in 45 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:13,956 Speaker 1: so many communities as to the spear for the kind 46 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 1: of harassment or problematic broken relationships that exist in too 47 00:03:19,516 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 1: many communities. With regards to law enforcement, the Civil Rights 48 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: Division of the Department of Justice, which you ran during 49 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,116 Speaker 1: a chunk of the Obama administration, of course, has the 50 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 1: legal authority to come in and prosecute when police go 51 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:37,316 Speaker 1: too far. What about the systematic approaches to trying to 52 00:03:37,316 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: solve what you were describing as a systemic problem. What 53 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:43,076 Speaker 1: efforts did you make, you and your teammate during the 54 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:47,676 Speaker 1: Obama administration of the police brutality question more generally, and 55 00:03:47,716 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: then I'll ask you what became of those efforts. So 56 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 1: in the Obama Justice Department, there was a real understanding 57 00:03:56,316 --> 00:04:01,276 Speaker 1: that Congress gave the Justice Department in nineteen ninety four 58 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 1: the authority to investigate police departments for systemic misconduct. This 59 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 1: came out of the Broadney King beating in in Los 60 00:04:09,516 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 1: Angeles and an investigation of the LAPD and this jurisdiction 61 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: has been always judiciously used, but it was one that 62 00:04:19,036 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 1: the Obama Justice Department took seriously open twenty five investigations 63 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 1: into major police departments. At the time that the end 64 00:04:27,196 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: of the administration ruled around, we had consent decrees in 65 00:04:30,076 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 1: fifteen cities across the country, and these consent decrees had 66 00:04:33,756 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: really become the basis for our best practices for triggering 67 00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 1: really hard conversations in law enforcement. But as you know, 68 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:44,516 Speaker 1: I came into the Justice Department just weeks after Michael 69 00:04:44,516 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 1: Brown had been killed in Ferguson, and the country was 70 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: ablaze quite literally around the same questions that the country's 71 00:04:52,356 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: contending with right now. And we had a president who 72 00:04:55,516 --> 00:04:59,956 Speaker 1: in his final years really dug in on race and 73 00:05:00,116 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 1: justice and policing in a way that I think was 74 00:05:04,876 --> 00:05:11,836 Speaker 1: pretty stark, and understood how important it was for people 75 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:14,196 Speaker 1: to have for communities of cloud, for black communities to 76 00:05:14,236 --> 00:05:17,236 Speaker 1: have some faith in the legal system as providing justice. 77 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:20,156 Speaker 1: But we needed There's been a lot of focus on 78 00:05:20,196 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: the fact that there's been two little criminal accountability of 79 00:05:23,036 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 1: officers when they engage in this misconduct. But I've always 80 00:05:26,356 --> 00:05:29,996 Speaker 1: thought that the criminal accountability, while absolutely crucial to giving 81 00:05:30,036 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 1: people faith in the legal system, is not sufficient, and 82 00:05:34,916 --> 00:05:37,676 Speaker 1: that these pattern and practice investigations are really aimed at 83 00:05:37,716 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: getting at systemic, entrenched problems and police departments that can't 84 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:44,636 Speaker 1: be fixed overnight or with a single criminal prosecution. And 85 00:05:44,676 --> 00:05:47,756 Speaker 1: so we did these investigations, and we had these consent 86 00:05:47,796 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 1: decrees around the country. It was pretty obvious when when 87 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: President Trump nominated Jeff Sessions to head up the Justice 88 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 1: Department's Attorney General the direction that all of this would go, 89 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:06,876 Speaker 1: which was South Attorney General Sessions from a minute he 90 00:06:06,996 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 1: came in, actually even where he was confirmed, trying to 91 00:06:10,836 --> 00:06:15,116 Speaker 1: get the Justice Department out of a very intense negotiation 92 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 1: for a Baltimore consent decree. And we were in this 93 00:06:18,076 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 1: strange position in February of twenty seventeen where the Justice 94 00:06:22,156 --> 00:06:25,516 Speaker 1: Department was trying to get out of this consent decree 95 00:06:25,596 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: and arguing federalism to the federal court in Baltimore and 96 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,996 Speaker 1: the police commissioner and mayor in Baltimore. We're saying, no, no, no, 97 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 1: we need this consent decree to be able to rebuild 98 00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 1: trust in the city of Baltimore. And they have systematically 99 00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:45,476 Speaker 1: both under Sessions and Bar stematically gutted the work of 100 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Division, dismantling police reform efforts, halting to 101 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: almost a complete halt except in one tiny investigation, but 102 00:06:55,476 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: halting all police investigations. They gutted. Jeff Sessions on his 103 00:07:00,516 --> 00:07:06,396 Speaker 1: way out of his firing, left a memo behind basically 104 00:07:06,436 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: making it almost impossible for the Civil Rights Division to 105 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: to get consent decrees against local jurisdictions. And so we've 106 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: had a series of all of these, the kind of 107 00:07:16,996 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 1: gutting of this work, coupled with rhetoric and a bully 108 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 1: pulpit that is from the President to Sessions and bar 109 00:07:25,396 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: giving speeches that basically, you know, really foster not only 110 00:07:32,036 --> 00:07:35,036 Speaker 1: in US versus them mentality, But I would go so 111 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: far as to say, even you know, Trump in twenty 112 00:07:37,956 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: seventeen encouraging police violence of suspects and the like. And 113 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:45,556 Speaker 1: this is a very very dangerous place for the country 114 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 1: to be in in this moment. Can we drill down 115 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: into what a best practices consent to create ought to 116 00:07:50,716 --> 00:07:52,596 Speaker 1: look like, because I mean, some of those do remain 117 00:07:52,636 --> 00:07:56,916 Speaker 1: in place, and they also raise at least of possibility 118 00:07:57,156 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: of providing a model for what ought to be done 119 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:01,756 Speaker 1: going forward. It's not going to come out of this 120 00:08:01,796 --> 00:08:05,316 Speaker 1: Department of Justice, obviously, but there will be other administrations, 121 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 1: one hopes, in the future. So what is the content 122 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 1: in your you of best practices? What should departments do 123 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: when they don't want to have events like this take place? Well, 124 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 1: I the consent decrease all look very different from each other. 125 00:08:19,956 --> 00:08:24,116 Speaker 1: They're really important, rich documents, but they look different from 126 00:08:24,156 --> 00:08:27,276 Speaker 1: each other because policing is inherently local. We have eighteen 127 00:08:27,316 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 1: thousand police departments in this country, and so policing in 128 00:08:31,396 --> 00:08:34,516 Speaker 1: this country is local, but it is bound by the constitution. 129 00:08:34,676 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: And these consent decrease covered topics like supervision systems, accountability systems, 130 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:46,676 Speaker 1: efforts to stop racially biased policing through changing policies and 131 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:52,676 Speaker 1: training around stop and searches, arrests practices, looking at officer 132 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 1: wellness to deal with stress on the job that can 133 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:59,556 Speaker 1: create very bad conditions for certain officers on the beat, 134 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 1: looking at problems with excessive use of force in putting 135 00:09:05,756 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 1: in de escalation policies, time communication, space mechanisms to de escalate, 136 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 1: and the like. But every one of these looks different 137 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: because they are fueled by they don't come about until 138 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:23,756 Speaker 1: the Justice Department has engaged in intense investigation, looking at 139 00:09:23,796 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 1: every record, interviewing hundreds and hundreds of police officers, community activists, 140 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 1: leaders people, residents that really describe what is happening in 141 00:09:35,476 --> 00:09:38,036 Speaker 1: the policing in that particular city, and then coming up 142 00:09:38,076 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 1: with solutions tailored to that city. The Leadership Conference last 143 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: year actually issued a report called the New Era of 144 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 1: Public Safety that aggregated a lot of the best practices 145 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:53,796 Speaker 1: in that document, in consent decrees, in DOJ research, in 146 00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: research from the International Association Chiefs of Police and civil 147 00:09:57,116 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: rights organizations in order to really provide communities on the 148 00:10:02,076 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 1: ground with the kinds of tools and best practices learnings 149 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:07,516 Speaker 1: that came from these consent decrees, in part because the 150 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 1: Justice Department has literally walked away from this work, and 151 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:13,476 Speaker 1: so we wanted to be able to provide those tools. 152 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 1: But this is some of the flavor of what is 153 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:21,316 Speaker 1: in any particular consent decree, And just by example, with Chicago, 154 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 1: Chicago Police Department long and storing history of systemic misconduct, 155 00:10:27,076 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 1: we really went deep into the problems of accountability, the 156 00:10:31,196 --> 00:10:36,476 Speaker 1: lack of accountability systems, lack of supervisory consistency, the lack 157 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 1: of adequate training, and accountability on use of force and 158 00:10:40,396 --> 00:10:42,396 Speaker 1: accessive use of force. So that's just to give you 159 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 1: some examples. Veneda, when I hear you say that there 160 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 1: are eighteen thousand police departments in the United States and 161 00:10:48,556 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: that there were fifteen consent decrees put in place by 162 00:10:50,876 --> 00:10:54,156 Speaker 1: the Obama administration, of the enormous disparity in those numbers 163 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 1: really makes me think the solution can't be the kind 164 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:02,116 Speaker 1: of nuanced, case by case, individually negotiated agreement then approved 165 00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: by a court, which is a consent decree. There if 166 00:11:03,956 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: we really are serious about a systemic problem, it needs 167 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:09,036 Speaker 1: to be addressed systematically. So I want to ask you, 168 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 1: imagine a democratic Congress, imagine a democratic president and a 169 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 1: will to make fundamental change At the national level. Could 170 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:21,996 Speaker 1: there be federal legislation that would operate wholesale, not just retail, 171 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:26,876 Speaker 1: that would, through let's say conditioning receipt of federal funds 172 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:32,956 Speaker 1: on reorganization, lead to the kinds of changes in supervision, accountability, 173 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:36,516 Speaker 1: de escalation, and so forth at a national level. Is 174 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: that something that's doable, is it something that's desirable? And 175 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 1: what would it look like if so? Yeah, So before 176 00:11:42,476 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: I want to answer this question, but I want to 177 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 1: it's really important to mention that the patter and practice 178 00:11:48,356 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 1: tool that the Justice Department has is just one tool 179 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:56,836 Speaker 1: of many that it has to incentivize reform. The Justice 180 00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: Department uses has a Cops Office, a Community Oriented Policing 181 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 1: Services Office that has a host of different programs, Technical Assistance, 182 00:12:06,236 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: Collaborative reform. These were programs that back the Obama administration 183 00:12:10,436 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: were well funded and really helped push departments at a 184 00:12:14,716 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 1: much greater scale to engage in reform. They produced research 185 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:21,756 Speaker 1: that was out for the field, convening authority with chiefs 186 00:12:21,756 --> 00:12:24,116 Speaker 1: from around the country that would come together to talk 187 00:12:24,156 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: through best practices and what they were doing. But also 188 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Ferguson, President Obama are recognizing, you know, 189 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:34,236 Speaker 1: just how widespread this problem is and how many police 190 00:12:34,236 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: departments there are launched the twenty first Century Policing Task 191 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 1: Force that over the course of three months came up 192 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:45,596 Speaker 1: with best practices and then can started to convene twenty 193 00:12:45,676 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: thirty forty chiefs once a week for the next several 194 00:12:49,196 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: years to literally dig in on this report and engage 195 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:57,676 Speaker 1: how these chiefs were actually implementing the outcomes and best 196 00:12:57,716 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: practices in this report. And so it is not one 197 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: tool or tactic that is going to win the day. 198 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,236 Speaker 1: You have to have sustained leadership that is pushing on 199 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:10,316 Speaker 1: this in a way that obviously wet now, but if 200 00:13:10,316 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: you look at this, this is part of what is needed. 201 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 1: The Justice Department is going to need. A new Justice 202 00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:21,476 Speaker 1: Department will need to reinvigorate all of these tools, but 203 00:13:21,556 --> 00:13:24,476 Speaker 1: I also think needs to go beyond what it already exists. 204 00:13:24,476 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 1: So we need to have a justice department that reinvigorates 205 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:32,516 Speaker 1: the community relations service that played such a profound role 206 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight. In the late sixties, it's been 207 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 1: really gutted, but in maintaining and building relationships locally on 208 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 1: the ground when unrest breaks through. We need to have laws, 209 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: federal laws that are actually in place that provide for 210 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 1: minimum national use of force standards. We need a national 211 00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: Registry of Police and miss conducts in a national registry 212 00:13:55,036 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: that documents officers that have been fired for disciplinary reasons 213 00:14:00,596 --> 00:14:03,316 Speaker 1: or excessive use of force, so that these officers are 214 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: just not cycling around between department to department getting hired 215 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: despite their own records in law enforcement. We need to 216 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 1: expand the federal charging options. This is you know, it 217 00:14:13,956 --> 00:14:16,476 Speaker 1: used to be a controversial topic, but I just don't 218 00:14:16,516 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 1: see how we can proceed and give the It is 219 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: the fact that the Justice Department and federal prosecutors have 220 00:14:24,716 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 1: one statute with the highest criminal intense standard in it 221 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 1: in order to prosecute officers who engage in this conduct. 222 00:14:32,116 --> 00:14:35,116 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense and it has let It is 223 00:14:35,156 --> 00:14:38,396 Speaker 1: meant that the Justice Department has had to decline prosecution 224 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:42,396 Speaker 1: in cases that they shouldn't have had to given um, 225 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,516 Speaker 1: given kind of how reckless the behavior was. So right now, 226 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 1: there's a it's a standard that requires proving specifically that 227 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 1: not only was the use of force unreasonable, but that 228 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 1: um that the officer knew at the time that he 229 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: or she was violating a constitutional right of a person, 230 00:15:00,876 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: that they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. 231 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:07,476 Speaker 1: And we need more charging options for prosecutors. These are 232 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:09,876 Speaker 1: just some of the things that I think states and 233 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 1: Congress ultimately need to take up. Even as we talk 234 00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 1: about reinvigorating a Justice Department and all of the tools 235 00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 1: that has and you talk about the spending clause issue, 236 00:15:20,036 --> 00:15:23,636 Speaker 1: this is something that has been raised a lot about 237 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:26,316 Speaker 1: what is the power of the federal government's purse, which 238 00:15:26,356 --> 00:15:30,076 Speaker 1: provides money out of the Justice Department to every police 239 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:34,556 Speaker 1: department in the country. How can that power be used 240 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 1: to incentivize um better policing, And in some cases there's 241 00:15:39,676 --> 00:15:43,756 Speaker 1: been conversations about mandating better policing, better data collection, and 242 00:15:43,796 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: I think this is a this is a question that 243 00:15:46,036 --> 00:15:49,156 Speaker 1: we have not reckoned with and I don't think that 244 00:15:49,196 --> 00:15:52,396 Speaker 1: it is we have to put this on the table now, 245 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 1: and it's something that has been politically toxic before in 246 00:15:56,556 --> 00:15:59,476 Speaker 1: prior times. But I think the fact that we don't 247 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 1: even aren't even able to collect data on officer involved fatalities, 248 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 1: I think is a real travesty. We'll be read back. 249 00:16:18,476 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the historical patterns that 250 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:27,196 Speaker 1: are essentially starting to emerge now. The Rodney King police 251 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: brutality event, followed by the Los Angeles riots, then the 252 00:16:31,676 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: Ferguson riots, then now the riots that are spread all 253 00:16:37,636 --> 00:16:40,116 Speaker 1: over the country, just beginning in Minneapolis but not spreading 254 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:43,116 Speaker 1: all over the country. These have become kind of recurrent events. 255 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:45,396 Speaker 1: And I suppose it could even go back before then 256 00:16:45,636 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 1: and go back to the nineteen sixty eight riots if 257 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 1: one wanted to push the historical model back before and 258 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 1: I'm omitting some smaller instances, but these are the big 259 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 1: national kind of cataclysmic riots. They're now a part of 260 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 1: the American historical trajectory. What is your deep instinct about 261 00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:06,236 Speaker 1: what can be done to address this recurring phenomenon? And 262 00:17:06,276 --> 00:17:08,036 Speaker 1: the reason I ask is, you know, we could imagine 263 00:17:08,356 --> 00:17:10,996 Speaker 1: Joe Biden becoming president, then you become attorney general or 264 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 1: deputy attorney general, and the president says to you, look, 265 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:15,836 Speaker 1: you know, take the leadership on this. We don't want 266 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: this to happen anymore. We want something that's transformative. All 267 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: of the sort of policy oriented approaches that you're describing 268 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,996 Speaker 1: all seem valuable and worthwhile, do any of them get 269 00:17:26,036 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: at this kind of core recurring phenomenon? Is this the 270 00:17:29,636 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 1: kind of problem that can be solved or addressed through 271 00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 1: those kind of cautious, incremental, rational, very Obama like interventions. So, 272 00:17:40,196 --> 00:17:41,836 Speaker 1: I mean, some of the things that I've talked about 273 00:17:41,876 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 1: would actually be pretty transformative, about having minimum national use 274 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:50,556 Speaker 1: of force standards and things that things that actually may 275 00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:52,956 Speaker 1: seem like words on a page but that don't exist 276 00:17:52,956 --> 00:17:55,756 Speaker 1: and have never existed in our nation in this way. 277 00:17:55,796 --> 00:17:58,996 Speaker 1: But you know, I have said this a lot to people, 278 00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:02,156 Speaker 1: which is that there is no silver bullet solution, and 279 00:18:02,236 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 1: I know that is deeply dissatisfying to people, but there 280 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:08,756 Speaker 1: truly isn't in policing. The structure of policing in this 281 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 1: kind of tree, with eighteen thousand police departments, the long 282 00:18:12,716 --> 00:18:17,596 Speaker 1: history of structural racism and state violence in particular against 283 00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 1: block communities. These are this is the legacy that we 284 00:18:20,476 --> 00:18:22,756 Speaker 1: are saddled with, and we are saddled with a legal 285 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:27,116 Speaker 1: system that is that won't be allowed for a single 286 00:18:27,196 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: silver bullet. It's going to take transformative, bold thinking. It 287 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 1: is not going to be enough for a Biden administration 288 00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:38,116 Speaker 1: or any administration to basically say, let's let's reinstate all 289 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:40,716 Speaker 1: that President Obama did and then cross our fingers and 290 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,876 Speaker 1: hope for the best. Because that's enough. We have to 291 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:46,916 Speaker 1: go away beyond what we were able to achieve in 292 00:18:46,916 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: the Obama administration. This is the kinds of things that 293 00:18:50,836 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 1: we are putting on the table now are require bold, 294 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:57,636 Speaker 1: new thinking. But it is going to take multiple efforts. 295 00:18:57,636 --> 00:18:59,556 Speaker 1: It's going to take work at the part on the 296 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: part of mayors in cities. It's going to take work 297 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:05,596 Speaker 1: on the part of police chief to actually implement much 298 00:19:05,636 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: of what is known to be best practices. There is 299 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:11,516 Speaker 1: still tremendous resistance, mostly coming from police unions, but also 300 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 1: from leadership. You know in certain parts of the country 301 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:17,716 Speaker 1: that are resistant. But I would say the law enforcement 302 00:19:17,796 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 1: leadership around the country is in a different place today 303 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 1: than they were in twenty fourteen. And it may be 304 00:19:22,796 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: cold comfort right now, but I take that as some 305 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:30,396 Speaker 1: modicum of progress. It's going to take Congress passing some 306 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:33,876 Speaker 1: sweeping laws around the stuff and policing. For some reason, 307 00:19:34,036 --> 00:19:38,036 Speaker 1: you know, there's been this surge of bipartisanship around chronal 308 00:19:38,156 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: justice reform. Policing is never a part of these conversations. 309 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:44,356 Speaker 1: You can't talk about policing without talking about race in 310 00:19:44,356 --> 00:19:48,196 Speaker 1: a really frontal way. And so there isn't a silver bullet, Noah. 311 00:19:48,676 --> 00:19:51,156 Speaker 1: But I don't think also the answer is just like 312 00:19:51,276 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 1: return to what we were doing before in a more 313 00:19:54,116 --> 00:19:59,356 Speaker 1: liberal or democratic administration. It's actually going to take like serious, progressive, 314 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 1: bold thinking based on what we know today. And in 315 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:06,196 Speaker 1: the end of the day, there is never going to 316 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 1: be a perfect police department. There are going to be 317 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:13,556 Speaker 1: critical awful tragedies that happen, and the difference will be 318 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 1: what the police department and what police departments around the 319 00:20:16,836 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 1: country do about it versus kind of the defiance or 320 00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:24,156 Speaker 1: resistance that we have seen in parts of the country 321 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 1: in response to these events. And I think that's part 322 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 1: that requires a racial reckoning, and we're kind of reckoning 323 00:20:29,556 --> 00:20:32,996 Speaker 1: with our history even as we change laws, engage in 324 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: deep thinking and reform efforts those at the local, state, 325 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:42,116 Speaker 1: and national level. One of the tragic features that we're 326 00:20:42,156 --> 00:20:45,116 Speaker 1: seeing now in real time is that there are peaceful 327 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:49,556 Speaker 1: protests demanding reform and change when it's light out, and 328 00:20:49,636 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 1: then at night there's looting. And without entering into the 329 00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:55,196 Speaker 1: very difficult to answer question of who's responsible for the 330 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:57,156 Speaker 1: looting and whether their community outside is, whether they're from 331 00:20:57,196 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 1: the far left or from the far right, I just 332 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: want to ask you what is the appropriate, from your 333 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:06,556 Speaker 1: perspective and civil rights respecting police response to the looting, 334 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:09,556 Speaker 1: because one thing that we're seeing is that in that 335 00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:13,676 Speaker 1: you know, police are becoming increasingly aggressive and violent. But 336 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 1: that just begs the question of what should the police 337 00:21:16,396 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: be doing when they see looting. I'm not talking about 338 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:22,356 Speaker 1: response to peaceful demonstrations, but to actual violent looting. Well, 339 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:25,036 Speaker 1: I think we have to be clear that there is 340 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: most people are peacefully protesting, even at night. And what's 341 00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:33,516 Speaker 1: happening is that you've got now, you know, increasingly, as 342 00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,676 Speaker 1: night after night goes of forces at play that have 343 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 1: nothing to do with mister Floyd's death, that are instigating 344 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:42,716 Speaker 1: acts of violence around the country. And there's been so 345 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: many videos of black protesters and activists, you know, getting 346 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:53,636 Speaker 1: mad at at so called white allies for defacing buildings 347 00:21:53,716 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: and putting things on fire and the like. And I 348 00:21:55,996 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 1: am really distrusted about this, as are so many and 349 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 1: I think that that is something that you have to 350 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: talk about when you're talking about what's happening on the 351 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:07,276 Speaker 1: streets right now, because most of that has nothing to 352 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: do with honoring mister Floyd's staff and the issues underlying it. 353 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:13,876 Speaker 1: But I also think look at law enforcement, it isn't 354 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: that they started acting aggressively in a lot of cities 355 00:22:16,636 --> 00:22:19,636 Speaker 1: just two three days ago when the protests started to surge. 356 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:23,956 Speaker 1: There was a lot of militarized response. Um the leadership 357 00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:28,676 Speaker 1: conference with the NAACP, the National Urban League, the NAACP 358 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 1: Legal defenseman and other civil rights organizations wrote a letter 359 00:22:31,676 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 1: to the mayor and the police chief in Minneapolis about 360 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: about ways to make sure that they can protect the 361 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:42,556 Speaker 1: protesters right to the First Amendment while protecting public safety. Um, 362 00:22:42,796 --> 00:22:47,716 Speaker 1: you know, using tear gas unnecessarily on peaceful protesters. Um uh, 363 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:51,276 Speaker 1: you know, not having a militarized response. These were some 364 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 1: of the things we were talking about early on when 365 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: when we weren't seeing what's playing out in the streets 366 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:00,276 Speaker 1: right now and in tuning these cities, that aggressive response 367 00:23:00,476 --> 00:23:04,396 Speaker 1: was happening very early on, that inflamed what was happening 368 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: on the street. But of course law enforcement has to 369 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 1: be able to protect operate from being burnt into faced 370 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:15,156 Speaker 1: and uh. And the question is are they making you know, 371 00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 1: just kind of reinstigating or throwing fuel on the fire 372 00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 1: around engaging in excessive force or excessive use of arrest 373 00:23:25,276 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 1: to do that. I think community leaders are speaking out 374 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:31,436 Speaker 1: calling for peace. There are civil rights leaders calling for peace. 375 00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 1: There are activists on the ground that are saying this 376 00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 1: is not in George Floyd's name. But I think we 377 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:39,036 Speaker 1: have to be really clear eyed about like the dynamics 378 00:23:39,156 --> 00:23:43,516 Speaker 1: on the street without you know, re emphasizing or reasserting 379 00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:45,996 Speaker 1: kind of an US versus them mentality here, because it 380 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: is very, very complicated. The Bonna Justice Department conducted after 381 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:56,276 Speaker 1: action assessments of how police were managing the protests that 382 00:23:56,636 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: on occasion turned violent, h you know, in Ferguson and 383 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 1: the like in Minneapolis, even after Jamar Clark was killed, 384 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 1: you know, like the pandemic reports that were shelved and 385 00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:11,316 Speaker 1: are been collecting dusk in the Trump administration, I don't 386 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:14,556 Speaker 1: think that this Justice Department is looking at what was 387 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:18,276 Speaker 1: learned in those prior incidents and encouraging law enforcement to 388 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:20,956 Speaker 1: de escalate and to find the ways to both protect 389 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 1: protesters and protect public safety in this moment. Do you 390 00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:28,516 Speaker 1: think the protests at this point have gotten beyond the 391 00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 1: straightforward demand for black people's lives to be respected and 392 00:24:34,036 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 1: honored by the police, and have sort of come to 393 00:24:36,916 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 1: stand more broadly for not only structural injustice, but also 394 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: more general frustration that many people around the country are 395 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:46,196 Speaker 1: feeling with a lack of change. And the reason I 396 00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 1: ask that is that when I talk to my students, 397 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: of course they acknowledge that the core claim of black 398 00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 1: Lives Matter is that the police ought not to engage 399 00:24:55,476 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 1: in brutal and unlawful forms of policing. They kill people 400 00:24:58,756 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 1: to kill black people. But they also say and that's 401 00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: just a part of a broader project, which includes prison abolition, 402 00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: which includes other kinds of basic change. And I'm wondering 403 00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:12,636 Speaker 1: whether your perception is that the protests have sort of 404 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 1: gotten beyond the initial topic of George Floyd's life and 405 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,316 Speaker 1: the lives of other people like him. You know, we 406 00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:23,756 Speaker 1: have to remember that this is all playing itself out 407 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:28,476 Speaker 1: amid a global pandemic that has ravaged in particular, black 408 00:25:28,476 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 1: and brown communities disproportionately in this country. And the unemployment 409 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 1: rates are going to be there, they're staggering across the board. 410 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 1: But the health outcomes of COVID, the prevalence of COVID, 411 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:43,396 Speaker 1: the mortality of COVID, has hit the Black community further 412 00:25:43,396 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 1: than any other community in the country right now, save 413 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:52,636 Speaker 1: probably for the Latino community. And it we are in 414 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 1: a situation where there is such a massive degree of 415 00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:02,356 Speaker 1: frustration around structural inequalities at large, and policing is usually 416 00:26:02,356 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 1: the tip of the sphere. When we were in Baltimore 417 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:09,276 Speaker 1: and after Freddy Gray was killed, Freddie Gray's death is 418 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 1: just the kind of the final thing that triggered the 419 00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:17,796 Speaker 1: massive unrest in Baltimore after years and decades of profound 420 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:23,476 Speaker 1: segregation and housing in schools and divestment in transportation and education. 421 00:26:24,116 --> 00:26:27,796 Speaker 1: And so you are seeing play out on the streets 422 00:26:27,876 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 1: right now. So it is it is anger at mister 423 00:26:30,916 --> 00:26:34,956 Speaker 1: Floyd's death, but it is much deeper than that, And 424 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,876 Speaker 1: I think this is part of the broader reckoning that 425 00:26:37,916 --> 00:26:41,396 Speaker 1: we have to do as a country to acknowledge this 426 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:47,396 Speaker 1: pain in the current lived experiences of communities of color, 427 00:26:48,756 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 1: not only visa VI policing, but but regarding so many 428 00:26:53,316 --> 00:26:56,476 Speaker 1: other issues that are that are kind of excluding these 429 00:26:56,516 --> 00:27:00,876 Speaker 1: communities from access to opportunity, from access to wealth. And 430 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:05,076 Speaker 1: it's in the face of an administration that, frankly, you know, 431 00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:11,036 Speaker 1: uses racial division racial polarization as an electoral tactic and 432 00:27:11,196 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: a president who thrives on this and thrives on the division. 433 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 1: So we don't even have national leadership that could even 434 00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:22,316 Speaker 1: pretend or wants to pretend or wants to show up 435 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:25,196 Speaker 1: as a unifying force or as a calming force. So 436 00:27:25,236 --> 00:27:27,636 Speaker 1: that's why I think you're seeing the kinds of things 437 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:31,636 Speaker 1: play out that you're seeing today. My last question, Venita, 438 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:33,956 Speaker 1: when you look at the situation that we're in now 439 00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:37,636 Speaker 1: and it's recurring nature, do you have any optimism about 440 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: our national capacity to improve in these dimensions in the future. 441 00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:46,396 Speaker 1: And if you do feel optimism, why you know. I'm 442 00:27:46,436 --> 00:27:48,716 Speaker 1: a civil rights lawyer, and I think as a civil 443 00:27:48,756 --> 00:27:52,396 Speaker 1: rights lawyer, we are we have deep wells of optimism. 444 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:54,676 Speaker 1: It's the only reason why we are able to continue 445 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,876 Speaker 1: day in and day out doing what we do. And 446 00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:01,156 Speaker 1: so I do feel optimistic. I feel optimistic because I 447 00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 1: look at the decades of our history and look from 448 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:06,556 Speaker 1: where to where we've come. And I don't think you 449 00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:10,236 Speaker 1: can deny progress that has been made. It is been painstaking, 450 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 1: it has been slow, it has been at the cost 451 00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 1: of people's lives. But I you know. I was in 452 00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:23,676 Speaker 1: Selma in early March commemorating the fifty fifth anniversary of 453 00:28:23,716 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 1: Bloody Sunday, and Congressman John Lewis showed up in the 454 00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 1: middle of the Edmund Pettis Bridge, the first time he 455 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:32,996 Speaker 1: had had a public appearance since he was diagnosed with 456 00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: pancreatic cancer, and talked about how he was standing on 457 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:39,476 Speaker 1: the spot where his skull had been broken by the 458 00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 1: Alabama state troopers fifty five years ago in his quest 459 00:28:43,956 --> 00:28:47,116 Speaker 1: for the right to vote along with you know, thousands 460 00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:49,676 Speaker 1: of people who were marching that day, and he forced 461 00:28:49,716 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 1: all of us in that moment to remember that is 462 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 1: bad and scary as these times are, that this country 463 00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,916 Speaker 1: has been through a lot. It has been through slavery 464 00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 1: and Jim Crow and deep seated pervasive violence, and it 465 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 1: has been through this and has seen some progress, not 466 00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 1: because we just sat back and hope that time would 467 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:18,196 Speaker 1: make this all inevitable, but actually because people of good conscience, 468 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:24,116 Speaker 1: young people especially, but people men, women, young folks have 469 00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:27,676 Speaker 1: rolled up their sleeves and insisted on a better America, 470 00:29:27,796 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 1: and they have worked at it. They have marched in 471 00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 1: the streets, they have litigated in the courts, they have 472 00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 1: elected representatives, they have fought voter suppression. And so the 473 00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: only way that we are going to see change is 474 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:43,996 Speaker 1: by re engaging and doubling down our commitment to this. 475 00:29:44,636 --> 00:29:48,996 Speaker 1: Despair is not an option. Despair is really a kind 476 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 1: of tool of the privilege to sit back as communities 477 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 1: burn or as communities suffer under inequality. And so to me, 478 00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: hope is actually one of the most important things I 479 00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 1: say hope is a discipline. I think it's one of 480 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:05,796 Speaker 1: the most important things that we bring to this work. 481 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:10,716 Speaker 1: But it requires a commitment because the alternative is far easier. 482 00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:12,996 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, when people say, well, how 483 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 1: are you coping, your civil rights leader, how was anyone 484 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:19,156 Speaker 1: doing this work right now? I said, the only thing 485 00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:21,116 Speaker 1: worse right now would be to be sitting on the 486 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 1: sidelines at this moment, not giving a dam and just 487 00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:28,636 Speaker 1: saying nothing can change. Because I think that we all 488 00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 1: are our agents of change, and that is our responsibility 489 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 1: in this moment, is to not let go of the 490 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:37,156 Speaker 1: possibility of a better America. Thank you, Anita, Thank you 491 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: for your efforts. Thank you for your work, Thank you 492 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,676 Speaker 1: for your frank discussion. Now, thank you, Thanks Noah. Talking 493 00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 1: to Vinita gave me a strong sense of the challenges 494 00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: that continue to face the United States in the realm 495 00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,436 Speaker 1: of civil rights. On the one hand, within the Obama 496 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 1: administration where she worked, serious efforts were made to try 497 00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:57,716 Speaker 1: to take on the problem of police violence and to 498 00:30:57,756 --> 00:31:01,596 Speaker 1: improve policing in the United States. That included case specific 499 00:31:01,636 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 1: consent decrees involving particular police departments and how they should 500 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: be reformed. It also included some broader efforts to produce 501 00:31:08,556 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 1: system change and how policing takes place in the United States. 502 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:17,436 Speaker 1: Those efforts could potentially be restarted in a democratic administration. Yet, 503 00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:20,836 Speaker 1: as Venita fothrightly acknowledged, just going back to the Obama 504 00:31:20,876 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 1: administration's policies would not be sufficient to solve the problems 505 00:31:25,476 --> 00:31:28,236 Speaker 1: that we are talking about. They have deep historical roots 506 00:31:28,476 --> 00:31:31,956 Speaker 1: and they express a fundamental structural injustice in the United 507 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:35,316 Speaker 1: States that's bound up in our four hundred year history. 508 00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:39,156 Speaker 1: As Vanita said, there is no single silver bullet solution 509 00:31:39,436 --> 00:31:42,716 Speaker 1: to the problem of police violence and civil rights. How 510 00:31:42,796 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 1: much more so then, is it true that there is 511 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,396 Speaker 1: no single bullet solution to the problem of structural racism 512 00:31:48,636 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 1: and its history and ongoing effects in the United States. 513 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:56,436 Speaker 1: Despite all this, Vanita still has hope for improvement. And 514 00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:59,916 Speaker 1: as she depicts it, hope is a discipline, perhaps even 515 00:31:59,956 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 1: a moral obligation, insofar as it stands for the idea 516 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:06,516 Speaker 1: that we cannot simply stand idly by and accept that 517 00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:11,516 Speaker 1: the world is broken. Rather, we have to undertake a serious, sustained, patient, 518 00:32:11,876 --> 00:32:15,356 Speaker 1: long term effort to try to improve it. Until the 519 00:32:15,396 --> 00:32:18,156 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you, be careful, be safe, 520 00:32:18,316 --> 00:32:22,076 Speaker 1: and be well. Deep Background is brought to you by 521 00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:26,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Jane Cott, with research 522 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:29,356 Speaker 1: help from Zooi Winn and mastering by Jason Gambrel and 523 00:32:29,476 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music 524 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:37,436 Speaker 1: is composed by Luis Guerrat special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, 525 00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:41,996 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Loebell. I'm Noah Feldman. 526 00:32:42,396 --> 00:32:45,356 Speaker 1: I also write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which 527 00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:49,116 Speaker 1: you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To 528 00:32:49,116 --> 00:32:52,636 Speaker 1: discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot 529 00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: com slash Podcasts. And one last thing, I just wrote 530 00:32:56,996 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 1: a book called The Arab Winter, a Tragedy. I would 531 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 1: be delighted if you're checked it out. You can always 532 00:33:02,396 --> 00:33:04,756 Speaker 1: let me know what you think on Twitter about this episode, 533 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:08,516 Speaker 1: or the book or anything else. My handle is Noah R. Feldman. 534 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:10,476 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background