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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of the greatest

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Speaker 1: gifts any man can be given, as a beautiful wife, too,

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Speaker 1: adoring daughters, and a child he had unborn. For years now,

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Speaker 1: the case of Chris Watts has puzzled many of us,

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Speaker 1: wondering what his motivation was to literally go in and

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Speaker 1: destroy this beautiful gift he had been given. My name

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Speaker 1: is Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body bags. Joining

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Speaker 1: me right now is my good friend Jackie Howard, producer

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Speaker 1: of crime stories. But Nancy Grace, Jackie, what can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about this case? As you said Joe, Chris

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Speaker 1: Wants and his wife, Shanan had two daughters, four year

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Speaker 1: old Mela and three year old Celeste, and Shanan was

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Speaker 1: expecting a baby boy. Shanan had been out of town

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Speaker 1: and came home and that's where things go sideways. Shannan

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Speaker 1: misses a doctor's appointment and when a friend goes over

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Speaker 1: to check on them, Shnan's car is still in the

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Speaker 1: driveway with the car seats in it, and Chris Watts

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Speaker 1: tells her that Nan had taken the kids on a

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Speaker 1: play date. At that point, the friend knew there was

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Speaker 1: exactly a problem because the car seats were still in

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Speaker 1: the car in the driveway. Police are called. We know now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: that Chris Wats strangled his wife in their bed after sex,

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Speaker 1: which leads us to wonder how was he able? Yes,

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant, but how was he able to so

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Speaker 1: easily overpower his wife. We know that she traveled, so

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Speaker 1: she was tired, she had just gotten home. She is pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and we also find out later on that over the

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Speaker 1: weeks before her murder he had been dosing her with

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Speaker 1: oxy codon. Any of these things alone would have taken

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Speaker 1: her strength away. What happens when you forgot all of

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Speaker 1: these things going on together? Jackie? I think the thing

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Speaker 1: comes to mind for me in regards to Shenan in

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Speaker 1: this case is a term that you hear many times,

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Speaker 1: bone weary. Can you imagine she is in the advanced

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Speaker 1: months of pregnancy, She's been carrying her and born son

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Speaker 1: Nko for all this time, and she's still on the

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Speaker 1: road going to sales meetings and this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and that even and she had in fact returned from

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Speaker 1: a sales meeting her friend to drop her off. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine how weary she was and then to come

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Speaker 1: home into this environment with a husband who she was

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Speaker 1: troubled with. They didn't have a solid marriage anymore. There

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Speaker 1: were dark storm clouds on the front. And then just

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Speaker 1: think about this for a second, because we really couldn't

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Speaker 1: get real good toxicology office NaN's body. But if in

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Speaker 1: fact he had been dosing her with oxy con along

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Speaker 1: a way, perhaps maybe to induce a premature birth at

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Speaker 1: some point in time, but tonight plan was different. He

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Speaker 1: was going to dose her with this and then she

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Speaker 1: was going to drift off into a very very neat sleep.

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Speaker 1: And you know from the reports that we have heard,

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Speaker 1: they may have had intercourse just prior to this. And

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Speaker 1: this goes to this idea that he's kind of drawing

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Speaker 1: her in the entire time, trying to make her feel

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Speaker 1: safe and secure, maybe one last time. Maybe she thinks

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Speaker 1: that everything is gonna be okay, but she's not going

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Speaker 1: to have the will or the physical ability to fight back.

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Speaker 1: So when he wrapped his hands around her throat, and

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Speaker 1: there is evidence that she was choked on the right side,

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Speaker 1: there was some hemorrhage of her neck, she couldn't fight

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it took so little pressure in

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Speaker 1: order to squeeze the life out of this pregnant mama.

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Speaker 1: That we didn't even see any evidence of particular hemorrhages

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Speaker 1: in her eyes, which normally come about within a fix

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Speaker 1: real death. You know, this increased pressure, so that gives

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Speaker 1: you an indication perhaps of how a little pressure it

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Speaker 1: took to subdue her and eventually in her life. Jo.

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Speaker 1: We actually do not know specifically whether or not Chris

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Speaker 1: Watts dosed his wife with oxy coda on that day.

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Speaker 1: It has been suspected he told someone, a pimpal that

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Speaker 1: he had been writing to, that he had been trying

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Speaker 1: to poison her. But with the tissues that remained when

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Speaker 1: Shennan's body was found, but they proved that our body

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Speaker 1: was in such a state of decomposition that it's actually

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Speaker 1: an unprovable point when when you were recovered decomposed tissue,

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Speaker 1: it's a real uphill battle to retrieve sufficient sam one

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Speaker 1: in order to conduct toxicology examination. Just think about it.

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Speaker 1: The more compromised the body is by you know, natural

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Speaker 1: decay that's occurring out in the elements, and she was,

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Speaker 1: in fact in the elements buried in a very shallow grave.

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Speaker 1: Those elements that we would normally examine after death are

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Speaker 1: compromised to the point where you can't you can't really

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Speaker 1: appreciate if, in fact, there was a lethal level of

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Speaker 1: any kind of substance in her system. Now you might

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Speaker 1: be able to find out, and these are two terms

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Speaker 1: we use in forensics and forensic toxicology. You can you

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Speaker 1: might perhaps can qualify a substance in the body and say, yes,

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Speaker 1: we have an opiate in the system, okay, But because

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Speaker 1: a tissue so compromised, you're not necessarily going to be

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Speaker 1: able to quantify that, and that means apply a specific

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Speaker 1: number to that agent in the body. Well, why is

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Speaker 1: that important? It's important because there are what are called

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Speaker 1: therapeutic doses. That is, if you go to the doctor

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Speaker 1: and and they give you medicine for hurt back or

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Speaker 1: maybe a busted knee, there's a certain amount that's acceptable

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Speaker 1: to be taken into the body that is not going

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Speaker 1: to put you into a lethal range. But you can't

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Speaker 1: achieve that withoud decomposed tissue. More than likely there is

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Speaker 1: no blood left where you can draw it up and

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Speaker 1: and examine it in its normal state postmortem, that is

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Speaker 1: a non decomposed status. And then the tissue that's left behind,

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Speaker 1: you can't really examine it for it at least to

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Speaker 1: put a fine point on it. With those numbers, is

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Speaker 1: it a lethal level, is at a non therapeutic level?

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Speaker 1: Those things that would give us an indication that maybe

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Speaker 1: this was an intentional overdose. When you're looking at a

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Speaker 1: body that has been buried in a shallow grave versus

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Speaker 1: six or eight feet deep. When we think about how

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Speaker 1: people are normally buried, although yes they're normally in a coffin,

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Speaker 1: but a body that's been buried in a shallow grave

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Speaker 1: versus someone that was much deeper, what is the difference

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Speaker 1: that you are going to be able to say forensically?

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Speaker 1: Is there going to be a difference between a shallow

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Speaker 1: grave and a deep grave? You know, the fact that

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Speaker 1: that she Nan was buried in a shallow grave brings

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Speaker 1: all kinds of problems along with it, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: somebody digging down traditionally, which you think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: six ft deep. We've heard that term before. When you

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Speaker 1: get down into that kind of substrata what they call substrata,

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Speaker 1: you're just barely on the surface here, uh there. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't afford a lot of protection for the body. So

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Speaker 1: any kind of insect life that's out there. The body

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Speaker 1: may as well be on top of the ground because

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Speaker 1: for a fly that's coming by, it's nothing for the

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Speaker 1: fly since this body buried under a very thin layer

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Speaker 1: of soil. So you're you're gonna still have, for instance, uh,

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Speaker 1: larval development that turns into maggot. For instance, Uh, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have burrowing animals that might not be quite as

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Speaker 1: prone to get down to six ft would you know,

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Speaker 1: just uh, just a very shallow area, they can dig

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Speaker 1: down very easily. And then you know, out in this

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Speaker 1: area you've got things like coyotes and they've got this

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Speaker 1: tremendous sense of smell, so it's not really going to

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Speaker 1: inhibit their ability to sense this body. And with that

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Speaker 1: comes the fact that the body will be further compromised.

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Speaker 1: It's it's just kind of logic. You know that that earth.

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Speaker 1: The deeper in the earth that you go, the body

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Speaker 1: becomes more and more protected from what's going out on

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Speaker 1: the surface and what's happening. And then you still have

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Speaker 1: the environmental factors. If the body is in a shallow grave,

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Speaker 1: the body is not going to be very well protected

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Speaker 1: from heat either, maybe not to the degree that you

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Speaker 1: would appreciate if the body was laying out on bare earth.

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Speaker 1: But still heat is going to impact the body and

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Speaker 1: it's going to speed up the process of decomposition. As

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Speaker 1: you said earlier, joke, there is cough and birth. Talk

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Speaker 1: to me about what that is, how that happens and

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Speaker 1: this date's body when she has discovered. Here's here's what

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Speaker 1: this scene would have looked like. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: had an opportunity to hear some of the comments were

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Speaker 1: made by many of the investigators that were out there

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Speaker 1: and they're still to this day. Jackie just troubled down

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Speaker 1: to to their soul over what they saw. And we're

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Speaker 1: just talking about Shenane's grave. Shanan, according to them, was

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Speaker 1: essentially buried in a very very shallow grave. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: There was not great effort that was taken in this.

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Speaker 1: And we we can learn a lot about an individual

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Speaker 1: based upon these this this preparation, if you will. They

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Speaker 1: have described her body as essentially being dumped in there

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Speaker 1: like a pile of garbage. We do know that she

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Speaker 1: was wrapping a sheet in the line on one side

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Speaker 1: of her body. It's it's not you know, when we

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Speaker 1: think about burial in a modern context, we think about

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Speaker 1: people being on or don't we We think about people,

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Speaker 1: say perhaps being laid on their back, maybe their hands crossed,

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Speaker 1: not thrown away like rubbish. And according to the investigators,

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Speaker 1: that's what they saw. It was. It was hurried, it

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Speaker 1: was frenzied, it was disordered. And as they began to

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Speaker 1: kind of peel away these level levels of dirt. As

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Speaker 1: they kind of began to peel away these layers of

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Speaker 1: dirt that have been quickly placed over her body, and

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Speaker 1: they began to pull back the sheet that she was

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Speaker 1: wrapped in, one of the things they saw was the

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Speaker 1: body of little Nico that she had been pregnant with.

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Speaker 1: And this is this gives you an indication as to

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Speaker 1: how decomposed her body was. When humans are in a

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Speaker 1: normal state, there's a certain amount of muscle tension that's

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Speaker 1: in the body, and just think about that relative to

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Speaker 1: a pregnancy. There's a certain amount of elasticity intention that

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Speaker 1: is occurring, say for instance, in the womb, in the uterus,

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Speaker 1: that retains a child in place. But as decomposition begins

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Speaker 1: to set in, that tension is released because muscles they

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Speaker 1: no longer have the same continuity and as they release.

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Speaker 1: As the body of the mother begins to decompose, this

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Speaker 1: tension that endoels a body naturally releases. The muscles are

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Speaker 1: no longer as resilient as they once were, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: we have what what what it's called a coffin birth.

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Speaker 1: So the baby is literally born in a post mortem state.

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Speaker 1: That means that the mother's decomposing body has the child's

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Speaker 1: body issue forth from her. It's no longer contained in

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Speaker 1: And when the investigators pulled back that sheet, they found

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Speaker 1: little Nico laying there, and they described his body as

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Speaker 1: being in a state of decomposition as well, you know,

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Speaker 1: no longer protected by his mother's body. Now that little fetus,

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Speaker 1: that little now born child in death is exposed to

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Speaker 1: the same elemental factors, the same decompositional factors as his

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Speaker 1: mother's body. And there he lay in that dirt next

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Speaker 1: to his mama's body. Knowing that Shennan had been dead

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Speaker 1: probably about twelve hours at this point, Niko would not

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Speaker 1: have been born alive. Correct, that's not possible for that

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Speaker 1: baby to have been born alive. This was something that

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Speaker 1: occurred postmortal. And keep in mind, and this really kind

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Speaker 1: of drives drives a point home here. And this is

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Speaker 1: why this is just one of the points along this

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Speaker 1: that makes this so gut wretch is the fact that

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Speaker 1: when Chris Watts wrapped his hands around Shannan Wats his

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Speaker 1: throat and he called is that hemorrhage in uh in

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Speaker 1: the muscles around her neck? As he squeezed the life

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Speaker 1: out of her, he was in effect squeezing the life

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Speaker 1: out of this unborn child. And it is a sad,

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Speaker 1: sad ending to this life. Jackie. We've talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about Chanan and and little Nico. What do we

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Speaker 1: know about Celeste and Bella. Chris Watts took his children

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Speaker 1: with him in the vehicle on the way to bury

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Speaker 1: Shenan Watts, but what happened once they got to the

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Speaker 1: oil field is certainly disturbing. We know the girls, we're

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Speaker 1: asking what was wrong with their mother? And then he

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Speaker 1: smothered his girls one at a time. What is the

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Speaker 1: difference job between smothering a child and strangling an adult

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Speaker 1: or is there any difference? That's a good question, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: And forensics we actually were referred to both of these

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Speaker 1: kinds of deaths, whether it's a strangulation or suffocation as

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Speaker 1: an asphyxial death. And what that means is it's a

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Speaker 1: deprivation of oxygen. As we say in the South, things

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Speaker 1: got cut off. You know, you're cutting off the air,

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Speaker 1: the air supply, and so that's what's actually happening here.

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Speaker 1: So you're depriving these little bodies, both Celeste and Bella,

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Speaker 1: of their source of oxygen. And you know they're they're believing,

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Speaker 1: at least the m E is believing that this in

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Speaker 1: fact was a smothering. And you know it's floated around

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Speaker 1: for years and years. It's smothering is one of the

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Speaker 1: as difficult things to detect. And you'd be absolutely right

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Speaker 1: because you know, you think about, well, how would you

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Speaker 1: go about smothering, uh, smothering these children. Well, in the

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Speaker 1: case of say, for instance, we've got Celeste who's tiny,

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Speaker 1: you know she's she's only three years old. Um, you

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Speaker 1: could very simply if you're a grown man, particularly size

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Speaker 1: of their daddy. Remember he worked out all the time.

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Speaker 1: He took a lot of pride in displaying how what

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Speaker 1: a fantastic physique he has. They would be no match

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Speaker 1: for this man. With Celeste, there was very little evidence

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Speaker 1: of trauma on her little body, so it would be

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Speaker 1: very simple for him to take, say, for instance, the

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Speaker 1: palm of his hand or even a pillow and place

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Speaker 1: it over her mouth. I think that probably in these

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Speaker 1: circumstances out there, remember that the investigators believe these two

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Speaker 1: children were actually alive. In his vehicle as he is

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Speaker 1: transporting the body of his deceased wife out to her

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Speaker 1: burial spot, he could have easily placed his hand over

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Speaker 1: celesque face, over her nose, in her mouth and deprived

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Speaker 1: her of oxygen and she would have essentially just kind

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Speaker 1: of gone to sleep. And this is what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as an anoxic death, which means that you're literally depriving

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Speaker 1: the brain of oxygen. The brain requires oxygen in order

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Speaker 1: to do all of its functions and including keeping our

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Speaker 1: heart beating. Now, Bella is a completely different story, and

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. There's something that's very very significant

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Speaker 1: here from a forensic standpoint that gives us an indication

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Speaker 1: of what may have happened to her and what he

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Speaker 1: actually did to her. She had no evidence of batiki I,

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Speaker 1: and that is those little vessels that are bursting in

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Speaker 1: her eyes due to pressure. However, there is something significant,

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Speaker 1: and it has to do with her mouth. Investigators report

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Speaker 1: and the m E reports that she had a uh

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Speaker 1: some trauma to her tongue. You know, how else would

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Speaker 1: she get trauma to her tongue unless she's probably resisting

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Speaker 1: and not only in her tongue. But there's a little

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Speaker 1: piece of tissue that attaches our upper lip and our

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Speaker 1: lower lip to the gums, respectively, and that's referred to

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Speaker 1: as fregulum, and it's a classic thing that you look

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Speaker 1: for in suffocation or smothering. Her upper fremulum was actually

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Speaker 1: lacerated or torn. And if people at home will just

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Speaker 1: kind of take the tip of your tongue, put it

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Speaker 1: outside your gum and in between your lip, and you

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Speaker 1: can actually feel that little piece of connective tissue. If

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Speaker 1: there is pressure directly applied to the mouth with a hand,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and you're fighting, you're resisting, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: uh save your own life. If you're trying you're struggling

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Speaker 1: to get a breath, that can actually tear. And I

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Speaker 1: find it very interesting that out of out of the

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Speaker 1: essentially four lives that he ended, little Bella fought the most.

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Speaker 1: She was only four years old. Just let that sink in.

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Speaker 1: We you know, we were we were all four years

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Speaker 1: old at one point in time. Maybe we have children

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Speaker 1: or grandchildren that are four. You can think about the

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Speaker 1: size of a child, a little girl like this. But

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Speaker 1: she fought. And you know what, the one thing that

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Speaker 1: they found on Chris Watts at night when they interviewed him,

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Speaker 1: the one bit of evidence when they talked to him

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Speaker 1: the next day, he had a small mark on his neck.

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Speaker 1: And I've often wondered if that was not Bella and

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Speaker 1: just a last gasp, a desperate gasp, but try to

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Speaker 1: reach up and fend her daddy off, her father, her father,

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Speaker 1: the man that was there to protect her and love

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Speaker 1: on her and watch after her as she grew up.

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Speaker 1: She's trying to fight him off, perhaps, and she scratched

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Speaker 1: him on his neck, and they have evidence of this,

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Speaker 1: They took pictures of that. They've never actually linked the two,

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Speaker 1: but I've often thought about that, because she did fight back.

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Speaker 1: She fought back to the point where this tissue in

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Speaker 1: her mouth was essentially lacerated and there were little areas

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Speaker 1: of hemorrhage, which means it happened in life. Joe, you

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Speaker 1: just confused me by saying that there was no particular

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage in her eyes? How is that possible? And you're

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00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: gonna have to explain that to me because you've repeatedly

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Speaker 1: said that when people are smothered, that's that's one of

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Speaker 1: the first things that forensic experts look for. So how

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Speaker 1: was it possible if she was smothered that there's not

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Speaker 1: any I'll tell you why, Jackie. I'm a simple guy

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Speaker 1: and I kind of like word pictures, and so the

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Speaker 1: way I always try to explain uh, particular hemorrhaging is

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Speaker 1: if you you think about a water hose that's attached

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Speaker 1: to your house, and you've got a nozzle on one end,

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Speaker 1: and it's closed, and you turn up the water pressure

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Speaker 1: on this on the on this faucet outside of your house,

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Speaker 1: and the hose might begin to expand, but yet you

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Speaker 1: you turn it off and suddenly the water that is

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Speaker 1: trapped in there you can release it if you if

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00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 1: you squeeze the nozzle. There has to be sufficient amount

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Speaker 1: of time that goes by where this internal pressure is

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Speaker 1: placed on these tiny little vessels. These vessels are actually

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Speaker 1: located and what's referred to as as are capillary beds,

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Speaker 1: which are these tiny, tiny little vessels. You've got what

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Speaker 1: are called arterials, and you've got what are called venules.

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Speaker 1: And what happens is that most of the time with

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Speaker 1: particular hemorrhagy, if you put enough pressure on them, they're

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Speaker 1: going to literally burst. And in the little areas of

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Speaker 1: tissue that surround these vessels, that blood seeps out. It

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Speaker 1: seeps out into what's called interstitial tissue, and it it

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Speaker 1: presents you can't you can't make it go away. It's

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Speaker 1: not like a crime scene that you go back and

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Speaker 1: you try to clean it up. That doesn't happen. With

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Speaker 1: these little pen prick hemorrhages. It's going to be there

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Speaker 1: forever and ever. Amen. The trick here, though, is that

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Speaker 1: in all three of these cases where Chris Watts put

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Speaker 1: his hands on these two children, these two little precious

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Speaker 1: baby girls, and his precious wife's laying their sleep, is

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Speaker 1: that he didn't render enough pressure for long enough time,

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Speaker 1: for long enough time for these vessels to burst in

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00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,360
Speaker 1: their eyes so that they can appreciate. You're not always

341
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: going to get these little focal areas of hemorrhage like that.

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Speaker 1: It just is not necessarily going to happen. So what

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Speaker 1: you're telling me, Joe, is that the difference in the

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Speaker 1: two is that it took less pressure and less time

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Speaker 1: to kill a child as opposed to an adult. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right, Jackie. It did take less pressure

347
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Speaker 1: and less time because they're weaker and so it it

348
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 1: only takes a smaller amount of time to compromise their airway,

349
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: their ability to uptake oxygen so that their brain can

350
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Speaker 1: still function as opposed to someone that might be more robust,

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Speaker 1: like a full grown man, an adult, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Shenan is not too far removed from

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Speaker 1: this category because we reflect back and think about what

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00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: we think may have been her status. We know that

355
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: she was tired, we know that she was advanced in

356
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 1: her month's relative to pregnancy, and also there's that specter

357
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Speaker 1: that she may have had some type of drug on

358
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Speaker 1: board that would cause her to be a weakened state,

359
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: cause her to be I don't know, just probably barely

360
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Speaker 1: semi conscious. So yeah, it's not going to take too

361
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Speaker 1: much to in their lives. It's such a tragedy when

362
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Speaker 1: you begin to think about these two little girls whose

363
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: lives were snuffed out by their daddy. But one of

364
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Speaker 1: the really puzzling and most horrific parts to this whole

365
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: story is what he did with the bodies afterwards. You're

366
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: absolutely right, Joe. Let's start at the beginning. We know

367
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Speaker 1: that once the little girls were dead, that he first

368
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Speaker 1: stuffed at their little bodies through an eight inch hatch

369
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Speaker 1: into an oil tank. Let's just start there. How do

370
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Speaker 1: the bodies of two little girls four and three years

371
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: old fit through an eight inch hole? Think about it.

372
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Speaker 1: That's about the size of a dinner plate. It's horrific,

373
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Speaker 1: you know. And it was it was the Ana Darko

374
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: old fields out there, and it's a desolate area. I

375
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: mean it is you talked about being removed. It was

376
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: removed from breast of civilization and just kind of sits

377
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: out there. It kind of rises up out of this

378
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: prairie out there. Why there, Well, he knew that it

379
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 1: would be isolated. This guy was familiar with this area.

380
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: He had a full awareness of what went out there.

381
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: And these these tanks are essentially storage tanks for raw petroleum.

382
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: He takes these two children out there, and he's got

383
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: a problem. What am I gonna do with him? Well,

384
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 1: he had already dug a very shallow grave for his

385
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: wife not too far away from the base of these

386
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: tanks and quickly deposited her body in that area. Now,

387
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: what do you do with these two children? Where there's

388
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: two tanks and these things were made very specifically. They're

389
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: kind of high. They're, you know, probably approximating maybe twenty

390
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: feet in height there. So and on top they have

391
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: these little hatches and they've got a very interesting name.

392
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: They're called thief hatches. And he popped the latch on

393
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: the thief hatch on each one of these tanks. And

394
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: with with Bella in particular, she's four years old, so

395
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: her body is certainly larger and more robust than her

396
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: three year old sister Celeste. How do you get her

397
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: into this hole? Well, the only way I can really

398
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: describe it it is the fact that she was actually

399
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: jammed down into that hole. And how do I know that?

400
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: You know, the investigators reported that one of the first

401
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: things that they noticed when they got out there to

402
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: that site, and they had been given the information that

403
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: this is where these two little angels were, they looked

404
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: at the thief hatch where Bella's body had been deposited,

405
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: and right along the rim there, some of her hair

406
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: was caught in that and it wasn't just like a strand.

407
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: I don't think it was like a clump of hair. Now,

408
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 1: how how's that accomplished? Well, her body is obviously just

409
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: think about how big eight inches is that's the diameter

410
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: on this thing. How in fact do you drive the

411
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: body of a four year old through this tiny opening? Well,

412
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: it was hard. And evidence of that is the fact

413
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: that her hair was left behind in the edge, which

414
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: means that it was torn away. It was ripped away

415
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: as he's jamming her down through this hole. Another thing

416
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: this demonstrated when they finally do examined Bella's body, She's

417
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: got scrapes where the edge, the metal edge of that

418
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: thief hatch caught hold and it left these marks on

419
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: her body. There have been broken bones. Joe, we think

420
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: about what he would have had to have done to

421
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: get Bella through that thief hatch in that inappropriate appropriate term,

422
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: considering this guy stole the life of these of these

423
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: two little precious girls. He would have had to have

424
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: taken Bella probably would not have needed to break bone,

425
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: but he would have of at her shoulders kind of

426
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: folded her in towards the center in order to facilitate

427
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: getting her down. She probably would have went in head first,

428
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: and as he's pressing her down through this opening, through

429
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: this sieve hatch, the metal edges of this thing called

430
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: hold of the tissue the skin, and it raked it away,

431
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: and it left these scratches on her body as she

432
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: fell through this thing. Finally, I'm sure that it took

433
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force on his part to get

434
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: her down there. And looking at the drop from this

435
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: thief hatch that you're talking about, Joe, as he stepped

436
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: the bodies down, you said that most likely he would

437
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: not have had two broken bones to get the children

438
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: inside those hatches. But what about the drop. We don't

439
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: necessarily know how far they fell if they went right

440
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 1: into the contents of the oil tank, so would there

441
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: have been broken bones from the drop itself. I think

442
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: that the fact that they're falling though it is a

443
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of a height. You know, we're looking at maybe

444
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: eighteen feet and height that they're falling from the opening

445
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: of the siezhatch. They're splashing down into a fluid environment.

446
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: So that's that's actually going to break the fall to

447
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: a certain degree, provided that they don't strike the bottom

448
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: of this tank. You know, the bare bottom you know,

449
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: I think that there's enough of a layer of fluid

450
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: there that kind of cradle the bodies when they hit,

451
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: So you're not going to see any kind of fracturing

452
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: or impact injuries necessarily related to this. And one other

453
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: thing you have to keep in mind, there's not going

454
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: to be any hemorrhage related to the fall either, uh,

455
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: you know, because this is a postmorn event. He had

456
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: killed these girls before you put them in there, So

457
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: I don't know that that we would ever really know,

458
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: and you know, not to mention the bodies were greatly compromised.

459
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Their status was greatly compromised when it came to the

460
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: medical examiner or the corner being able to examine these

461
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: bodies once they got them back to the morgue. That

462
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: leads us to the next point in our discussion, Joe,

463
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: is what happened to the bodies of those two little

464
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: girls once they were inside those oil tanks. How caustic

465
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: is oil and what is it going to do to

466
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: human tissue that is left in there for any period

467
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: of time. The horrific part to this is that, first off,

468
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: when you go into this environment, this is raw petroleum

469
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of stuff that comes off for

470
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: raw petroleum that we create in this world that we use.

471
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: It's not just gasoline, and it's not just lubricantness all

472
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that's used for. But something that's naturally

473
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: occurring is what's for two is aromatic hydrocarbons and in

474
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: this environment, in this environment to two substances stick out.

475
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: One's called talueen and another it's called benzene. And if

476
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: you've ever heard of benzene, you know that it can

477
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: be used to polish things with. Uh. It is very

478
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: lethal um talween as well, and it causes things to

479
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: breakdown very quickly. It eats into tissue, not to the

480
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: same degree as certain assets do, but it causes the

481
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: tissue to become greatly compromised. It softens things, It begins

482
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: to promote this kind of coming apart, and then you

483
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: you marry that up with natural decompositional process and these

484
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: bodies are gonna wind up and what's referred to as

485
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: kind of a macerated state, which means that the decomposition

486
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: has gotten to the point, this chemical effect has gotten

487
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: to the point where you're not the structural integrity of

488
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: the body. It's really hard uh the structural integrity of

489
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: the body is so compromised that assessing the body at

490
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: the autopsy is going to be quite sure. So are

491
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: you telling me, then, Joe, that their bones would have impliable.

492
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that the bones would have necessarily been

493
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: pliable in this case. I know that the soft tissue

494
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: surrounding them though. Just imagine, if you will, the worst

495
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: sunburn that you've ever seen in your life, where tissue

496
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: is beginning to peel away. It's almost like a chemical

497
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: burn that's taking taking place, and you would have seen

498
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: layers and layers of tissue that would have been coming

499
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: off just by touching it. Now, it's not going to

500
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: necessarily appear that way initially, but when you begin to

501
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: move these bodies around, the bodies are very fragile, so

502
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: tissue will begin to fall off of the bone, if

503
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: you will. In certain cases deepened upon the length of

504
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: exposure they have to these horrible chemicals that they're that

505
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: they're found in. You know, they had to drain both

506
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: of these tanks when this occurred. They had to call

507
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: the e p A out because this is such a

508
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: dangerous situation. So not only did this guy murder his

509
00:31:54,760 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: children and his wife. But where he placed Bella and

510
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: Celeste is such a volatile environment that all of the workers,

511
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: all of the investigators, the people that work out there

512
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: that that have control over these tanks because they had

513
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: to be drained, all these people were exposed to these chemicals.

514
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: And just think about that just for a second. This

515
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: is the ultimate in a selfish act, you know, And

516
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: nobody really talks about this. These investigators that are out

517
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: there and the workers that are out there are traumatized

518
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: to the fact that they're they're having to extricate these

519
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: little girls out of these tanks after they know they've

520
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: been sitting out there all night long, after the tanks

521
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: have been drained, and they got to go out in

522
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: there and do that. But they've got to put on

523
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: hazmat suits in order to facilitate this. It was a

524
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: monumental undertaking. And I can tell you these investigators and workers,

525
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: they're gonna be scarred by this for the rest of

526
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: their life. So I've heard you talk about this case before,

527
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: and one of the things that always rings out for

528
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: me is the phrase the time degloved. I've heard you

529
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: reference that word in regards to these girls. Explain that

530
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: to me. We've got two layers of skin we commonly

531
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: think about. We think about the epidermists, which means tops,

532
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: the top layer. You know. It's like when you get

533
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: a blister on your hand, that's the top layer of

534
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: the skin that's rising up, filled with fluid. And then

535
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: you've got the dermists, which is that underlying surface beneath

536
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: the epidermist. It's a bit more robust, it's thicker, with

537
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: deep clubbing. It can happen in a couple of ways.

538
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: You find it a lot in water environments where you

539
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: have a body that's found out in a lake or

540
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: river and maybe the ocean, and that skin begins to

541
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: come away, that dermist begins to come away from from

542
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: the underlying connected tissue that you can actually peel a

543
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: an entire uh. Hands, you can actually peel the surface

544
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: of tissue off of a human hand. Uh. And that's

545
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: where we get this term de glove. And it's like

546
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 1: you're peeling a glove off of a hand. And this

547
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: can happen over the entire body. When you're talking about

548
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: exposing them to things like benzene and tallyween and this

549
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: sort of thing, the whole body can become deep gloves

550
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: so that the tissue, that outer lay of tissue becomes

551
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: peeled away and and you can you can actually appreciate this.

552
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: It's almost like the skin. It's just being kind of

553
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: rolled off, if you will. And you know, I've seen

554
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: this in environments when you bring bodies into the morgue

555
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: that have been exposed uh to chemicals like this, you

556
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: have to be very very careful because it's all very fragile.

557
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: It will come off in an instant. You can actually

558
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: take your gloved hand you have a rubber glove on

559
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: in the morgue and touch it to the surface of

560
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: these bodies and sometimes when you pull your hand away

561
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: or that tissue comes off on your gloved hands, and

562
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 1: it's it really magnifies this in that sense that when

563
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: they got these bodies back to the more, this is

564
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: something that we're having to deal with. There's a horrible

565
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: smell that comes along with this. You would probably have

566
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: to wear some type of not just regular mask, but

567
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: probably a respirator if you're going to do this examination.

568
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: And the evidence that you're talking about here is so fine, Jackie.

569
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about you know, we talked about

570
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: POTICHII or the eyes even preserved well enough that tissue

571
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: around the eyes so that you can see if there

572
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: are any particular images. Are you able to appreciate the

573
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: neck to the to the degree you need to to

574
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: see if there was any kind of hemorrhage relative to

575
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: manual strangulation. In of course, in Bella's case, they were

576
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: able to see this trauma to the tongue and that

577
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: little piece of tissue, the fremulum in her lip. They

578
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: were able to appreciate that, But a lot of other

579
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: evidence is gone. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this this

580
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: body backs