1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grin 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron, making for the best experience listen 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: with headphones. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: In the course of doing research for this season of 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: Strange Arrivals, I ran across the book The Believer Encounters 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: with the Beginning, the End, and Our Place in the Middle, 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: by Sarah Krasnstein. Like Strange Arrivals, it is concerned with 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: issues of belief, but approaches the topic a little differently. 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: Here's my interview with Sarah. We talk about the creation Museum, 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: UFO experiencers and people who will come to your house 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: inclensed of evil or just annoying spirits. 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: My name is Sarah Krasstein, and I am a writer, 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: and you'll find that I have a very strange hybrid 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: accent because I am a dual American Australian citizen, and 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: I've spent probably about half my life in each country 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: by this point, and I often forget what's the right 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: word for the right country. And we're in the liminal 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: podcast space, so I guess that doesn't matter, but I'm 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: flagging it. That's me. 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: What was the impetus behind writing this book? 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: So it's probably generous to describe it as a process, 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: but with each of my kind of book length work 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: so far, it really just starts off as something that's 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: not really even intellectualized. It's just a feeling that these 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: are interesting stories that deserve kind of more than a 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: magazine type treatment, and that if they're willing, these people 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: that have kind of sparked my curiosity or interest, I 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: would like over the next indefinite period, which so far 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: has shaken out to about four years each book, to 30 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: get to know them, like see the world through their eyes, 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: their interior life. And with the Believer, it was disclosed 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: over the process of those kind of four year interviews 33 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: that it was different people speaking from vastly different perspectives 34 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: about the grief in the gap between the world as 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: it intractably is in the world as we'd love it 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: to be, and what they did to make that gap 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: cognitively or spiritually work for them. 38 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: How did that become apparent to you? 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: Well, again, like I say, it's just like and this 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: is difficult because before I wrote full Time, I was 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: a lawyer and I have a PhD in criminal appeals, 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: and it is not a really intellectualized, repplicable process. It's 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: much more intuitive. It's that there's something that they're telling 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: me that is either immediately identifiable to me and I 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: feel it too in some strange way, or alien to me, 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: and I want to explore that difference. So I was 47 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: hearing the same phrases again and again. And what the 48 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: believer is is six braided together, very different stories that 49 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: on the surface have nothing in common. And I was 50 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: hearing this phrase again from all these people, whether they 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: were the ghost hunters or the Eufologists, or fundamentalist Christians 52 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: or Buddhists, that this life can't be all there is. 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: There has to be something else out there. And whether 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: they came at that from a you know, Kingdom come 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: evangelist perspective, or a Buddhist non attachment perspective, or a 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: personal kind of agency perspective or literal alien perspective, it 57 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: was this longing for something more, for some meaning, for 58 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: something greater than we appeared to be able to produce 59 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: for ourselves in this kind of quotidian, daily daily life. 60 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: Was it just these six groups that you looked at, 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: or were there other ones that that you sort of 62 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: started with that kind of fell away as time went on. 63 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: As a writer's question. That's right, Yeah, there were there's 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: always what are they say? You've got to have a 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of milk to get to the cream, you know. 66 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: There's there were a number of others which I wished 67 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: could have worked, but for whatever reason, usually because they're 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: coming to me with kind of a prepackaged story, or 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: they are kind of to screen ready or camera ready 70 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: and I don't feel I'm getting the kind of true 71 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: emotional honesty or depth, they fall away. But it could 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: be for a range of reasons. So the process kind 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: of self selects people that are happy to speak to 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: me honestly and who I'm happy to spend time with. 75 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: And that's not going to be everyone that I initially 76 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: thought at the beginning it would be. 77 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 2: I've got a bunch of just I mean, they they're 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: like slightly detailed, but I think they kind of hit 79 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 2: it different. Things. I thought was that I thought we're 80 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 2: interesting in the book, so and I think this is 81 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: answers in Genesis, which I've been interested in for years. 82 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: Just bizarre, bizarre that ken Ham is such an odd 83 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: the idea that you're trying to prove Noah's ark, and 84 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: that there are like triceratops is on the arc is 85 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: just so strange. But I think it's in one of 86 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: those sections that you make a point about tolerating uncertainty 87 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 2: versus defending a point just for the sake or defending 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: a solution just for the sake of like having that solution. 89 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that a little bit? I thought 90 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: that was an interesting point. 91 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's something that you know, again kind of 92 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,239 Speaker 1: I see across all these stories, or I saw across 93 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: the stories, whether it was the paranormal researchers, the ghost 94 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: hunters at work, or some of the euthologists, the kind 95 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: of inability which is a very human, universal inability. We 96 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: all do it in different ways to have difficulty tolerating 97 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: uncertainty and therefore our own actual lack of control over 98 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: daily circumstances, yet alone the larger course of a life 99 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: manifested in Kentucky. As you know, it's in the literal 100 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: name of the ministry. It's answers in Genesis. Anything you 101 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: want to know, there is an answer, a solution, a 102 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: certainty for and I'm jealous of that. I found myself 103 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: increasingly jealous of it over my time there, which was 104 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: the shortest of any kind of the stories in the book. 105 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: It was only a week, although it felt like a 106 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: million years. It was you know, any any question, any 107 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: kind of gotcha moment that science could provide, would have 108 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: a neatly wrapped up, seemingly watertight to them answer. And 109 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: I was not really interested in defeating religion with science, 110 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, as the ministry specifically, you know, has been 111 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: the subject of Bill Nye's work, and you know, it's 112 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: something that's easily mockable and easily kind of defeated. It's 113 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: just like cotton candy, these arguments. But I was interesting 114 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: more in what was underlying that impulse to kind of 115 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: have a complete explanation for circumstances that you know, the 116 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: best astrophysicists will tell you are still not fully understood, 117 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: and that's part of the joy in the glory of science. 118 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: They couldn't sit in that space. And then it led 119 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: to the question, well, where can the rest of us 120 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: not sit? What is intolerable to the rest of us? 121 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: What kind of magical thinking do we do reflexively on 122 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: a daily basis. It might not be as extreme as 123 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: having a big, perfectly articulated argument why dinosaurs had to 124 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: be on Noah's ark and they were vegetarians and whatnot, 125 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: but we might do it, you know, nonetheless in smaller, 126 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: trickier ways, and there's universal kind of touching vulnerability to that. Yeah. 127 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of the UFO people end 128 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: up talking to would say the same thing about like skeptics, 129 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: in that it's like, you like the you like to 130 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: be able to sort of get rid of the uncertainty 131 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: of what's up in our skies and that we just 132 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: can't really comprehend it by by providing explanations that are comprehensible, 133 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: which I think is sort of the flip side of 134 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: the coin that I look at them at. But it's, uh, yeah, 135 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: it's an interesting thought. And Georgia, I can't even read 136 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: my own handwriting. Yeah, so she seems like she's almost 137 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: like the ultimate of that in which it's She kind 138 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: of makes the argument at one point that essentially like, Wow, 139 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: when people take issue with something I say, I just 140 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: like I realized that it's not really me they're taking 141 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: issue with, it's the Bible. And so if they want 142 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: to take on the Bible, And it's like this sort 143 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: of complete confidence that her interpretation of the Bible is 144 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: absolutely correct, So any criticism of her is actually sort 145 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 2: of a criticism of God. So she's not going to 146 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: like get too worried about it. I thought was kind 147 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: of interesting. 148 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think all kind of the executive positions 149 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: that they use. Everyone I spoke to kind of had 150 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: this very neat reply to these issues of meaning and 151 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: answers being somehow entirely external from them. And again, it's wonderful. 152 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: I'm jealous of that kind of faith that there's a plan, 153 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: it's explicable. This is not my thing. I didn't come 154 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: up with this. I'm just you know, discovering or you know, 155 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: going along with something that exists objectively and independently, and 156 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: anyone else who can't see that is wrong. And again, 157 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: underneath that kind of maddening logic is you know, a 158 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: very young part wanting certainty and justice and fairness and control. 159 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean at the level of conversation or discourse, 160 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: it's really not good enough. It's quite unsatisfactory. 161 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I want to talk about this spirit section 162 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: a little bit. So it's just kind of interesting because 163 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: I didn't know I have any background in it. What 164 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: was your what's your take on that experience? 165 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: So you know, it was like take your writer to 166 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: work day for the paranormal investigators who agreed to let 167 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: me watch them at work, and they're clearing haunted houses, 168 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: and they're leading kind of workshops and conferences into how 169 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: people can do this for themselves, or little field trips 170 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: into haunted places, and again a very unlikely place to 171 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: end up. I had no independent interest in this before 172 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: I was in Kentucky at Answers and Genesis and at 173 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: the Creation Museum, which you know, after that week it 174 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: became clear that this really wasn't about any kind of 175 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: ethical system or morality, and it was more about kind 176 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: of this fundamental injustice of how can we explain the 177 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: fact that all this and everyone we love, including ourselves, 178 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: will die? And what will we do with the idea 179 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: that death just exists? Can we make it less scary 180 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: by conceiving it as a punishment for sin? And is that? 181 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: Is that really kind of a form of grief or 182 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: longing for something that feels more comfortable? And so I thought, well, 183 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: who can I find that has a more spacious attitude 184 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: towards death? And that opened up a whole bunch of 185 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: stories and the paranormal researchers were one of them, because again, 186 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: death becomes explicable, becomes friendlier, it becomes something that you 187 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: can wish away or think away more to the point. 188 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: And I didn't expect to be as freaked out as 189 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: I actually was, so more fool me. But I mean, 190 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: I think most of the time. Well, firstly, I have 191 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: to say that these were some of the most pleasant 192 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: people to spend time with that I've worked with. They 193 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: were universally quite intelligent, universally very kind, and self aware 194 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: in many ways. So one of them was a neurophysiologist 195 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: whose kind of leisure time on the weekend is spent 196 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: looking for empirical proof of ghosts. Another one is kind 197 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: of comes at it from a more kind of depth 198 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: psychology background. But again, it's been actively clearing haunted houses 199 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: for about three decades, and lovely people to spend time 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: with their work, their hobbies or interests. They approached this 201 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: in a very utilitarian, pragmatic way. It's almost bureaucratic, and 202 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: it's mundanity that they're just there clearing another house. And 203 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: so I had come along with that. I was just 204 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: doing my job as well. And then you're sitting there 205 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: at midnight and a you know, one hundred and twenty 206 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: year old building, and I found myself very nervous to 207 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom by myself down a long, dark hallway, 208 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: or you know, wondering about the space at my bed 209 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: and finding myself more freaked out than I thought I 210 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: would be. So isn't it interesting where we end up? Yeah? 211 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: I thought when I was reading that part, I was 212 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: thinking about how important setting is for so much stuff 213 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 2: that you know, and that being in some abandoned place 214 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: that's really dark and quiet and like every creek like 215 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: sort of sets a tone for certain moods or perceptions 216 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: or whatever. I really liked the Vlad. I just I 217 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 2: kind of kind of felt bad for him because he 218 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: wanted so badly to perceive the stuff that all these 219 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: other people were just like, you know, supposedly perceiving with 220 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 2: like no problem, and just like, oh, look at all 221 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: these people, Look at all these spirits hanging out in 222 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: this room. It's like I can't see any of them. 223 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: I can't feel it. I want to get back to that. 224 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: A second part of one of the things that you 225 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: brought up in here that I thought was interesting is 226 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: you talk about the god helmet and how you know, 227 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: which I guess is a contraption that somebody came up with, 228 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: and that if you use weak magnets can initiate a 229 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: sounse that there's something in the room with you, and 230 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: if you, you know, stimulate another part of the brain, 231 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: you can like kind of give it sort of positive 232 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: or negative. What was your thought about including that? 233 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: So Latt is a he's an academic. He teaches neurophysiology 234 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: at a university, and he has a very kind of 235 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: intellectualized approach to the world. Super smart guy, loves a footnote, 236 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: loves the small print, and presents in every way like 237 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: a professor. And then, as you say, has this real 238 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: longing to kind of experience what many of these more 239 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: very intuitive, kind of hippyish people were experiencing spiritually when 240 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: they walked into a space. There was something that he 241 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: told me once about how the brain responds to the 242 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: physical stimulus of you know, for instance, if you like 243 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: touch someone's wrist and then you touch further up their arm, 244 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: the brain will register touch at every point in between. 245 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: It just kind of fills it in as a shorthand 246 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: for that explanation of why it physically felt something at 247 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: the start and at the finish of the space of 248 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: your arm. And I thought that was really interesting also metaphorically, 249 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: for how we tend to fill in these creepy spaces 250 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: or empty rooms or the quieter parts of our lives 251 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: with a story that might not be comforting but makes 252 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: sense to us, or a story that is suspiciously comforting. 253 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: How bad we are at something that's unknown or not 254 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: yet proved, or that we can't make sense of, or 255 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: that we wish was different. So I found kind of 256 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: that correspondence between what the body does physically and what 257 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: the mind does cognitively through a whole range of cognitive 258 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: dissonance biases. We have confirmation bias and conformity bias and 259 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: normalcy bias and nego bias, and what it lacks in accuracy, 260 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: it really makes up for in comfort uncertainty. And we 261 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: say that in a range of ways. So you know, 262 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: it played out in the kind of ghost hunting sense 263 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: in that way, a willingness to approach evidence or the 264 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: possibility of kind of collating what would ideally be a 265 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: peer reviewed standard of academic scientific proof on the one hand, 266 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: and kind of the reality of this is not a 267 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: space that lends itself to that sort of proof and 268 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: what are we going to do? How we're going to 269 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, think about that in that glaring gap. So 270 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: all of that was kind of at play. It was 271 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: what I was seeing, but it was more more creepy 272 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: that I thought it would be. While having all of 273 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: these kind of thoughts. 274 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: You know, two things. At one point, I think it's 275 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: flat who says we don't know what caused it, so 276 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: we just assumed it was something genuinely paranormal, which I 277 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: just thought was kind of nice but also interesting. The 278 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: other thing that I was kind of, you know, troubled 279 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: by is that is that Spirits seemed like kindergarteners in 280 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: some ways in the way that Rob was kind of 281 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: dealing with them. So you've got this sort of scene 282 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: where he goes to this guy, Ah, is it George 283 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: or Jane? 284 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: Oh, I think Jane at the old Man's house. 285 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: I think it's Gene George. It's somebody's different. Yeah, And 286 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: he's like clearing out his house and he kind of 287 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: carries on this sort of you get one side of 288 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: this conversation he's having with this with Spirits, but he's 289 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: essentially like kind of disciplining him and telling him to 290 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: like do what he wants them to do. And apparently 291 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: that's what it takes. Can you do that if you're 292 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 2: not an intuitive apparently. 293 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: Not strictly, not in according to the rules of that discipline, 294 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: But the upshot is that if you're not intuitive or psychic, 295 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: you won't be seeing the ghosts so often in these spaces. 296 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: I was the only admitted non psychic, and I was 297 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: therefore spared the possibility of seeing or experiencing any kind 298 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: of paranormal interference. So you won't see it, and you 299 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: can't kind of show them away. And again, I mean 300 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: thinking of it more kind of metaphorically or at a 301 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: deeper level. He said to me, this is his name 302 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: is Rob Tilley, and he's been clearing haunted houses for 303 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: thirty years and a lovely guy, very smart, very creative, 304 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: really wonderful person to hang out with. He was like, 305 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, they're just like annoying people. They're just of 306 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: like bullies, and if you don't give them attention, they 307 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: go away. So what does it mean to be haunted 308 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: by something? What does it mean to feel a threatening 309 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: presence or the yeah of the past where you are now? 310 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: And how comforting might it be to have someone in 311 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: there who seems to control what is uncontrollable and hurting 312 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: you and scaring you. And it was a very beautiful 313 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: kind of human moment. There's nothing kind of exploitative about 314 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: what he's doing. He does charge like the bare minimum 315 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: to cover his travel costs, but if he's dealing with 316 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: a client who can't afford it, he will he will 317 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: do it for free. And so I have to say, like, 318 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: I didn't expect this at all from myself, but you know, 319 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: we had moved into a new house during the course 320 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: of that research, and I remember it's a very old house. 321 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: My house was built in eighteen eighty and I remember 322 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: having a thought, well, oh, there's something creepy here. I 323 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: can call Rob and he'll take care of it. And 324 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: it was so comforting. So, you know, I didn't expect 325 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: to have that thought me and go through my mind, 326 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: but there it was. 327 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: You've got a guy in the industry, I know a guy. 328 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. 329 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: My conversation with Sarah Kraststein will continue after the break. 330 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 2: For people who are listening, there's there is like at 331 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: the end of this, you write, I think very sensitively 332 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: about Jean's experience, and he I mean, he basically says that, well, 333 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: his wife died and you know, that's fine. What he 334 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: really misses is his dog. And then you have this 335 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: kind of two paragraphs, one talking about what it's like 336 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 2: to have lived with somebody for however many years and 337 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: just not really miss them when they're gone, and then 338 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: what his life is like now he's sort of adopted 339 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: this sort of spiritual view of things, and how that's 340 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 2: not really worked out exactly the way that he he 341 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: most likely would have liked to. So he's gone to 342 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: this new world with its own set of problems for him, 343 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: which I thought was sort of insightful of moving. The 344 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: other thing before we kind of move on is that 345 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: there's every once in a while like something would pop 346 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: up in a couple of places in ways that were 347 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: sort of unrelated. And one of those things in the 348 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: first section of the book is dragons, because I believe 349 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: there's some conversation about how, because dragons are mentioned a 350 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: couple times in the Bible, that they definitely did exist 351 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: and existed with people. And then there's also I don't 352 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: know if it's rob but he has to rid a 353 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: Chinese gentleman. I think is how he described him house 354 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: of a dragon, and it was just so big that 355 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: he ended up just like wrapping it around the outside 356 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: of the house. 357 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: And that was a purely like that was a water 358 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: cooler conversation between two kind of house clearers about how 359 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: they dealt with these dragons and where they put the dragons. 360 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: Very you know, it was like they were talking about 361 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: the traffic. It was beautiful to behold. Carl Jung wrote 362 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: a book on flying saucers where he was interested not 363 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: at all and whether they were real or not, and 364 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: more in the kind of archetypal or symbolic experience of 365 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: all of us. All cultures have recourse to this shared 366 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: repository of images, and what did they serve? What purpose 367 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: do they serve in human society and personal meaning making? 368 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: And the idea that this dragon, which if you think 369 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: spent enough time thinking about the physicality of a dragon, 370 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: is an actual thing is quite terrifying. What role do 371 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: these kind of fearsome, mystical, beautiful, you know, literally awesome 372 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: beasts continuously playing in these different cultures and our different 373 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: kind of personal outlooks. So again, you know, between six 374 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: stories that on the surface have nothing in common. I 375 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: kept on saying they were like harmonies. They were just 376 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: kind of like these little resonances and echoes. And it 377 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: was this notion that let's not try to defeat this 378 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: with logic, because if fact moved the world, we wouldn't 379 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: have any of the stories that are in the newspaper 380 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: every day. What can we where can we go emotionally 381 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: that makes us recognizable to each other and might create 382 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: some chance of understanding mutual dialogue or not. I'm not 383 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: that hopeful about the actual reality of that manifesting, but 384 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting space to wonder about. 385 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: I want to get into the UFO stuff a little bit. 386 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: So you talk about I guess kind of the two 387 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: biggest Australian UFO stories. Why did you pick these two? 388 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: And that was kind of interested, like your entry point 389 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: to them as well. 390 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: So I'm not a UFO person. I'm not interested. I 391 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: had not before I found these stories been at all 392 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: across or interested in becoming across the areas. And I 393 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: was looking at one of those websites says like what 394 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: happens on this day randomly, so it wasn't I didn't 395 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: even set out looking for a UFO story, and that's 396 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: when I first learned about Frederick Valentiche and that was 397 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of in my back pocket for a couple of years. 398 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: And then when I had spent that time with the 399 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: ghost Hunters and the other Australian story in the book, 400 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: which is a woman who helps people die is a 401 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: Buddhist death dula, and I had these two kinds of 402 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about death, thinking about the unknown, and 403 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: then I started looking at Valentage in that light as well, 404 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: less for the truth of how that pilot disappeared and 405 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: more about the people he left behind, thinking about the 406 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: lack of kind of confirmation, the lack of knowledge, and 407 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: what one does in the space where you don't even 408 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: have a body. Then it led to the fact that 409 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, I've been in Australia since nineteen ninety four. 410 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: I've lived in Victoria all that time, where Melbourne is. 411 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: It's the capital of the state of Victoria. And I 412 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: had never heard about the Valentage disappearance. And I know 413 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: that people who are interested in the area globally have 414 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: heard about the story. And I found it so odd 415 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: that it had been kind of ghettoised in Australian history 416 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: or Victorian history or kind of cultural history that it's 417 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: still kind of a niche story. Yeah, I contacted the 418 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: fiance that he left behind, and I started the research 419 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: in that way, and that led me to the west 420 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: All siding. 421 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 2: At this point in the conversation, I was interested that 422 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: the Westall sighting didn't attract the same theorizing from researchers 423 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: that Aerial School or Roswell or any number of high 424 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: profile encounters have. I asked her what she took away 425 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: from her look into this case. 426 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, i'd say journalistically, like forensically, from like 427 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: a not a strictly speaking legal standard, but you know, 428 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: using actual evidential rules that the people that I spoke 429 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: to definitely did see something at the school, I mean, 430 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: and they had there is funny memories. The funny thing 431 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: because the short answer to your question is, I think 432 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: everyone saw something that the military then tried to cover up. 433 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: And then from there, as kids left the school and 434 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of ran down to the adjacent park land, that's 435 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: where stories start to differ in fairly cinematic ways. But 436 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: what happened at the school, and again I kind of 437 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: write about this weather balloon that had come down, you know, 438 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: not long before in a different place, and what that 439 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: would have looked like, particularly to you know, people in 440 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: the mid sixties. So there's kind of more mundane explanations 441 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: for what they may or may not have seen and 442 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: what the government did or did not want them to 443 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: be telling other people. But the guy that I spoke 444 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: with and completely reasonable, totally normal guy, he was like, 445 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: there was a road here, I was standing on it, 446 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: I was kicking with football on the football field, and 447 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: this is what happened. And you know, I go back 448 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 1: and I look at historic roadmaps of the suburb at 449 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: the time, and there was a road there and it 450 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: hasn't been there for forty years. So the memory of 451 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: that is perfect. Is he then one hundred percent reliable 452 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: in his recollections, which are you know, bona fide. He 453 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: actually believes this that when he goes down to the parkland, 454 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: there's you know, a balloon that changes shape and it's 455 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: weightlessness and element you know, all of these different things 456 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: that start to kind of get a lot more murky 457 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: and a lot more dramatic after the citing that everyone 458 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: can agree on. So I don't think it's an all 459 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: or nothing kind of proposition. I also don't think that, 460 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, government's covering something up, could cover something up 461 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: for a totally mundane reason or operational reason that has 462 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: nothing you know, I often wish the government was effective 463 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: enough to be carrying out some sort of big you know, 464 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: jupe like that. But often this the explanations are so 465 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: much more banal and damply disappointing than we kind of 466 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: created in our minds. So yeah, Westall is interesting for 467 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: that reason. And if you do try to find a 468 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: lot of the evidence, and other researchers have have done 469 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: a great deal of work in that area, the primary 470 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: sources are noticeably missing. That's interesting as well. Videotapes of 471 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: the coverage, news coverage at the time. So again, all 472 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: of those issues of memory and group memory and kind 473 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: of that that sort of bias confirm confirmation bias are 474 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: live there. But something something was seen on that day 475 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: with what it is is a different story. 476 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all these things that happened to memories over time, 477 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: and you know, as you're as you're telling the story, 478 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: any you know, that becomes what you remember rather than 479 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,239 Speaker 2: you know, there's all these different polluting aspects. So you 480 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: talk to a few other people Jamie and Aspasia, Aspasia, Yeah. 481 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: Aspasia, Espasia, Leonardo. 482 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: They were pretty interesting, super interesting. What led you to them? 483 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: So the different Australian grassroots ufo RES research organizations are 484 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: a kind of initially confronting, confrontingly similar massive initials, and 485 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: I had to kind of educate myself about their differences 486 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: and their histories. And yeah, Jamie was the spokesperson for 487 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: the Sydney based research group and he I was. Yeah. 488 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: So I was looking for people that had kind of 489 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: immersed themselves in this area, aware of the knowledge that 490 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: at least if you have a sighting in Australia, the 491 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: police or the military are not going to be interested 492 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: in the slightest if you even got through to them. 493 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: These are the groups that would take you seriously. And 494 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: I think there's something really beautiful about that willingness to 495 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: listen and to kind of meet people where they are 496 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: in their concerns. Also, you know, there but for the 497 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: grace of whatever you want to call it, if I'm 498 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: driving home one night, these are the people who will 499 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: listen to me. So I kind of came to him 500 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 1: with not knowing a great deal and I had a 501 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,239 Speaker 1: number of really wonderful conversations with them. I went to 502 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: the UFO Research Sydney group Christmas party and spoke to 503 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: kind of the broader base of members. Are the Leonardo's 504 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: are fascinating people, even if you just take out the 505 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: UFO stuff. They are you know, self educated in many 506 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: respects to a level that you know, you'd wish most 507 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: people had that curiosity about other people in the world. 508 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: We live in what we share and just full bottles 509 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: on kind of anything that I was curious to know about. 510 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: So that's how I got there. I spoke to a 511 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: whole range of you know, it's a broad church. There's 512 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: not one type, there's not one kind of personality. But yeah, 513 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stories came out of that. And 514 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: Valentage was the reason why I went there initially, but 515 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: it kind of opened up outside of that particular incident. 516 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: Some of the stuff they said was super, super interesting. 517 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: And then they are also like, you do include a 518 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: Spasias like sort of theory about how if you put 519 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: a I can't remember exactly what it was, but like 520 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: you put a bear in a water long enough and 521 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: it turns into a whale. And that's not how evolution. 522 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: Not how evolution again, I mean the correspondences between this 523 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: belief that look at this screwed up planet, look at 524 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: what we've done to ourselves in the late state of capitalism. 525 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,239 Speaker 1: Is this natural? We must not be from here, There 526 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: must be some other place. And how this, you know, 527 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: incredibly intellectual woman who has read everything in her field 528 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: and can talk at a very high level for as 529 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: long as you want. What is she showing at an 530 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: emotional level? At least? That's very similar to what Georgia 531 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: at the Creation Museum was saying about. This can't be 532 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: all there is that We've got to have something, you know, 533 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: there's another home for us. We look around what we've 534 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: done this, this can't be us really And I found 535 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: that really moving again, kind of the if you could 536 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: take the highway to the intellect to the emotional heart 537 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: beneath all this kind of intellectualization. Maybe while we're all 538 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: wearing very different clothes in the arguments about it, maybe 539 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: we're coming from the same kind of wounded place. 540 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I guess maybe the last thing I 541 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: want to talk about specifically is you talk about Neil 542 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: who you know, he says like he always had a 543 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: sense I didn't belong here, And then I believe he's 544 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: had abduction experiences and then he has this thing where 545 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: these giant craft land in his backyard. I thought that 546 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: this is another kind of interesting and moving story about 547 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: a person dealing with I guess, just a sense of 548 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: you know, unbelonging or isolation or what have you, and 549 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: you know, bringing some sort of importance or reason for this. 550 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. So you know, sitting around the 551 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: Leonardo's dining room table chatting with this man and you know, 552 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: again they came to this their work by starting the 553 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: first kind of support group for abductees in Sydney, but 554 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: also I think Australia nationally. And I was interested in 555 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: what he was saying. And he's a perfectly nice guy. 556 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: He's got kids, he has a business, he has a 557 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: big dog and a messy car, and you wouldn't look 558 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: twice at him, or if you spoke to him on 559 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: the street, you wouldn't think this guy is not credible. 560 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: But I was less interested in his stories of kind 561 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: of contact and abduction or the veracity or otherwise of 562 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: what he was saying, and more interested in observing the 563 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: relationship between him and the Leonarders. What does it mean? 564 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: To have an abductee support group. What is that dynamic? 565 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: What does it mean to kind of find somebody who's 566 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: willing to meet you where you're at and to say, 567 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean they very much believe him, but also kind 568 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: of to confirm that you're worth listening to something disturbing. 569 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: Disturbing happened to you and you're not alone in that. 570 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: And I found it kind of gently beautifully ironic that 571 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: if we are kind of alone in the big universe 572 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: or being menaced by, you know, these powers that we 573 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: don't understand, how beautiful that at least in those spaces 574 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: they're not alone. And yeah, so watching and also but 575 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: at another level, you know, in a country where a 576 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: million people are having a cup of tea with their 577 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: neighbors at a table or were anyway pre COVID, this 578 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 1: is just one of the infinite human conversations that's going 579 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: on on a Tuesday afternoon, and it is about what 580 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: happened when you were visited by multiple alien aircraft on 581 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: your farm that time. So I just find it adorable 582 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: and infinitely interesting that that was just another kind of conversation. 583 00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting. It also struck me like how a fair 584 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: amount of the stuff there's like sort of a good 585 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: versus evil battle going on. So that just seemed like 586 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 2: another interesting sort of through line through most of this stuff. 587 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: I mean, that's like religion and you know, even rooting 588 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 2: for sports teams. But I just it's another kind of 589 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 2: one of those themes that seem to sort of flow 590 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 2: through everything. 591 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, well, thank you for saying that. I mean 592 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: that as well, kind of this idea that maybe it 593 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: doesn't matter that we do this, Maybe this kind of 594 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: inability to see clearly doesn't really matter. Maybe that's just 595 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: how we are built, but how we use it is 596 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: probably the difference between good and evil if you insist 597 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: on looking the other way when it comes to proof 598 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: of consequences or the faults of your kind of reasoning process. 599 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: Could that could be you know, quirky in one context, 600 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: or it could be genocidal in another context. And it's 601 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: kind of at its cool are the same impulse of 602 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance or magical thinking, and so the facts both 603 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 1: do and don't matter. Our approach to it very much, 604 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: very much matters, and is often the difference between what 605 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: we call good and what we call evil. And it's 606 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: not as much as we'd wish it to be as 607 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: external as we think it is. 608 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 609 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was hosted by Toby 610 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: Ball and produced by Rima L. Kayali, Jesse Funk, and 611 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: Nuami Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick and 612 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: Aaron Mankey, and supervising producer Josh Thane. Learn more about 613 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 2: the show at Grimminmild dot com, slash Strange Arrivals and 614 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: find more podcasts from iHeartRadio listening to the iHeartRadio app, 615 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.