1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from How Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know Flying Solo Edition. I was gonna 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: not say anything and just see if anyone out there 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: would think I just wasn't here at all. It's just me, everybody. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: If you be like god, no, no, and cares. I 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: don't know about that. Man. Do you remember how berserk 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: everyone went with that one jokey three D printer April 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: Fool's episodes? Yeah, poor Ben. No. People were very respectful 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: to Ben. They were like, Ben, I really like you, 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: but this is a travesty, all right, So this is 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: a pretty relevant topic. Oh wait, hold on, will you 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: indulge me real quick? Sure? Speaking of Ben, so so 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: just I want to give a shout out real quick. 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: Ben and I worked on a How Stuff Works first 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: ever fiction podcast called The Control Group, and it's out. 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: The first five episodes are out and maybe by the 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: time this comes out, will be releasing the last five 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: once a week. Um. And it's pretty good. It's set 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: in the sixties, It's it takes place in a mental asylum. Uh, 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: and there's a doctor who is running the show who 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: is under the encouragement of a very shady organization, a secretive, 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: shady organization, starting to really go off the rails and 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: lose his ethics and immorality. It's pretty engrossing. It's a 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: really engrossing yeah, for sure. It's an engrossing radio drama basically. Yeah. 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you like our mk Ultra podcast episodes, uh, 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: then this is kind of right up your alley for sure. 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: And it's really really well done. The acting is top notch, 30 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: music is really great to sound effects are great. Really 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: sucks you in. So go check it out on iTunes 32 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: the Control Group and um, if you like it, leave 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: a nice review maybe if you want whatever, even if 34 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: you just go and enjoy it, that's all I'm asking 35 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: you to do. Agreed. Okay, thanks for indulging me. Charge. 36 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: So we're moving on to attorney client privilege, which is 37 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: something that I knew just about everything about. It turns out, yeah, 38 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: because there's not that much to it. I mean, there's 39 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: some nuance here there, but basically everybody knows what it is. Yeah. 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. There is nuance because our legal 41 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: system here in the United States and in Canada um 42 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: are very much based on precedent and legal precedent, and 43 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: attorney client privilege. Privilege is not It's not something that 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: was laid out in the Constitution. So it's something we've 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: had to formulate over the years, uh, through precedent on 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: prior cases to kind of figure out all the nuances 47 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: that you were talking about. That's right, it's just since 48 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: it comes from English common law, that means it's a 49 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: very old custom. But since, like you're saying, it's not 50 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: enshrined in the Constitution, you can't point to and be like, 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: here are the rules of attorney client privilege. You have 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: to work it out through court cases over the years. Yeah, 53 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: should we talk about that very first one or the 54 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: very first one that mattered? Yeah, for sure. And do 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: you remember this story from the Revenge episode we did? 56 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: Was that where this was okay, Yeah, it did smack 57 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: of something that I had heard before. Pretty fascinating, So 58 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: so tell it to them, all right, So this is 59 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: seventeen forty three, and prior to this there had been 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: references to an attorney client privilege, but it's all here 61 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: that only fourteen reported decisions on this predate, Uh, this 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: seventeen forty three K. So it wasn't something trotted out 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: there a lot, but uh Annestlely the and Glessia I 64 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: would say, anglesey anglese really yeah, I guess you could 65 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: pronounce it, and Glessia Huh it's Anestley Jennifer Aniston versus 66 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: Julio Iglesias. Well, regardless of it's let's just say a 67 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: v A is a very pivotal trial because it pitted. 68 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: This is a story of inheritance. When there was a 69 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: man named Arthur who died and his brother Richard said, 70 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: you know what I'm due to inherit this estate because 71 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: my brother didn't have any kids more. But it was 72 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: very inconvenient. When someone named James showed up and said, no, no, no, 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: I am his long lost son and rightful heir, he 74 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: said waw. And that's where the story kicks off. Right. 75 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: So James, it turns out, was very much telling the truth. Um, 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: he says, not only is this guy a jerk, he 77 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: knows full well that I'm the rightful heir because he 78 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: got rid of me when I was a mere twelve 79 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: year old pup growing up in England. All of a sudden, 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: I found myself kidnapped. Suddenly. This is like um uh 81 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: Robert Louis Stevenson book, right. So he's kidnapped and sent 82 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: off to Delaware to live as an addentured servant for 83 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: thirteen years. Yeah, which might as well have been Siberia 84 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: at the time, exactly, I mean still kind of. And 85 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: he's working it off as a like. He just basically said, 86 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: this is my fate. So he worked for thirteen years 87 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: as an addentured servant and worked it off and made 88 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: his way down to Jamaica at age twenty five, and 89 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: then made his way back to England to claim as inheritance. 90 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: So he shows up and his uncle Richard, who was 91 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: the Earl of Well and Glessia or angle Sea, one 92 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: of the two, and um, he said, he said, this 93 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: guy is a fraud. I'm the rightful heir. So first 94 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: of all, Richard thinks he got rid of this kid forever. Now, 95 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the kids shows up and he 96 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: does another even dastardly thing and frames him for murder. 97 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: I guess yeah he was. There was this accident that 98 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: happened and Earl got his attorney, one John Gifford, to 99 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: kind of go for a murder prosecution even though he 100 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: knew that the death was an accident. So, like you said, 101 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: he sort of framed it up in such a way 102 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: that he could really get rid of this kid now 103 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: a young adult, and even said in pre trial hearings 104 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: of his nephew he would give a ten thousand pounds 105 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: to have him hanged. And how this all relates back 106 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: to attorney client privileges is that, like we said, Gifford 107 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: was his attorney and was sort of in on this thing, 108 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: and when it all came out, the attorney was the 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: one the only person really that could give testimony that 110 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: this happened. And uh, the original Uncle Dick said no, no, no, 111 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: this is attorney client privilege. This is protected, and it 112 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: would violate that. It into all the way to to 113 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: uh to court and they said, no, no, no, that's 114 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: that's not the case. I'm sorry to tell you. Yeah, 115 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,679 Speaker 1: because uh, Annesley Um argued that or his lawyer argued 116 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: that Um these other things, the kidnapping that the lawyer 117 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: helped arrange them, the statement about how we would have 118 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: him hanged for ten thousand pounds, that had nothing to 119 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: do with the inheritance, and what we were talking about 120 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: here was the inheritance, and thus that shouldn't be protected 121 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: communication between the client and his attorney. And the court said, 122 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't even care what you just said. 123 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: This story is so bonkers and that guy is so 124 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: patently evil. I'm going to rule in favor of you. 125 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: And the first ruling, the first major clear concise ruling 126 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: on attorney client privilege, was registered in seventeen forty three. Right, 127 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: So the whole idea behind any attorney client privilege is 128 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: to give you the assurance as a client that you 129 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: can speak to your attorney in private, and that's very key, 130 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: as we will find out later, in private without fear 131 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: that they will then use that information against you somehow, 132 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: or that that information can be extracted from them under 133 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: threat of say jail time or something. Yeah, exactly. And 134 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: it's um It's defined pretty well in this other article 135 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: you sent. It's where legal advice of any kind it's 136 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: sought from a professional legal advisor uh in his or 137 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: her capacity. As such, the communications relating to that purpose 138 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: made in confidence by the client are at his or 139 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: her instance, permanently protected from disclosure by the client or 140 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: by the legal advisor, except the protection be waived. Yeah, 141 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, that's a pretty big mouthful. But 142 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: what it's basically saying is that if you commit a 143 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: crime or committed tort, which is basically a civil a 144 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: civil act against somebody that they can sue you for 145 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: if you if you commit either one of those, and 146 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: you say, oh god, I need a lawyer, and you 147 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: go to a lawyer and say a I want you 148 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: to be my lawyer, and the lawyer says, okay, go ahead, 149 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: and you start talking, say you tell them everything. You 150 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: admit to guilt, You admit to everything. It doesn't matter 151 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: what you've admitted to. That that speech, that communication, that 152 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: conversation is to stay between you and your lawyer forever, 153 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: even after your death. They've ruled, as we'll see, and 154 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: that you, the client, are the only person who can 155 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: waive that right, that privilege of that communication, so that 156 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: your lawyer has to take it to their grave even 157 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: after you're dead, as long as you say I as 158 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: long as you never wave that right. Yeah, and that's 159 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: what you just said, would satisfy one of the four 160 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: basic elements necessary here, which is one. It was a communication, 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: uh too, it was made between the privileged persons, that 162 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: is you and the attorney. It was made in confidence. 163 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: And this one's really important. It's for the purpose of 164 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: seeking or obtaining a legal assistance. So it's you can't 165 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't count if you go to your pal who's 166 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: a lawyer and ask them for legal advice. If you're 167 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: not retaining them for their services, that's a big one. 168 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: That's a really big one. Even if you do go 169 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: to a pal and retain them as a lawyer officially, 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: or even if your lawyer is not your pal and 171 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: you retain them as a lawyer. If you say I 172 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: committed this crime, I need your help to cover it up, 173 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: that's not protected either. Correct. You also can't go to 174 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: your lawyer and say, um, hey, i've been thinking that 175 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: we could come up with a pretty great real estate 176 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: scam with your lawyering skills and my my scamming skills. 177 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: Let's come up with something that would not be protected 178 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: either because it's a crime. It's you're planning a crime. 179 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: Either planning a crime or covering up a crime. You 180 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: just lost your your privilege, your attorney client privilege. All right, 181 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: should we take a break? I think so that's a 182 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: good little overview, and we'll come back and talk about 183 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: all the ins and outs right after this. Alright, Chuck, 184 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: so we're back. We're talking about some ins and outs, yeah, 185 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: and and and exceptions. And you you mentioned one that 186 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: you would probably that would probably fall under the crime 187 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: fraud exception. Uh. And again that's the in our own article. 188 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: The thing they reference here is like, hey, let's set 189 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: up a phony company UM as a front. Can you 190 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: help me do that as an attorney? Right, then there 191 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: is obviously no protection there attorney client privilege, right, or 192 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: I want you to go make this bribe to an 193 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: elected official or whatever. It doesn't matter what it is. 194 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: If it's if it's on the law books as a crime, 195 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: you're you just lost your privilege. Yeah. And another way 196 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: it can get gray too is if UM lawyers do 197 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: a lot of things for people, it's not always providing 198 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: legal counsel. So this is where it can get a 199 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: little little hinky on both sides. You can have a 200 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: communicative act, but uh, as they say in our article, 201 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: business is business and the laws the law. Right. You know, 202 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: it's only pertaining to legal matters, not if your attorney 203 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: is doing some sort of business deal for you, right, 204 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: And that really comes in play more for corporate law, 205 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: which is they're really big into attorney client privilege because 206 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: they're frequently letting their clients or their attorney in on 207 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: um tax evasion, UM, maybe selling knowingly selling tainted products, 208 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: or even like on the more innocent end of the 209 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: spectrum like trade secrets UM, intellectual property secrets there, and 210 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: a business attorney will have a lot of knowledge about 211 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: their come any or their clients business that you just 212 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: don't want them going and spilling the beans, even in 213 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: open court. Right, So that but that's where you want it. 214 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: You want that very much if you're a company with 215 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: your corporate lawyer. But in the same time, as far 216 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: as the courts have said over the years, that's very 217 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: very murky because what constitutes legal advice what constitutes business advice. 218 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's clear, you know, like what's our what is 219 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: our legal implication for this tax evasion that we just 220 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,119 Speaker 1: found out our accounting department did that would be protected 221 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: not um uh, I don't know. Help us, help us 222 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: figure out some ways to evade our taxes or even 223 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: even beyond that, even legal ways. Help us figure out 224 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: some legal ways to evade our taxes that might not 225 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: cut muster because that's more business than law. You could 226 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: make an argument, yeah, and and likely like I said earlier, 227 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: it can get super gray as too far as far 228 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: as whether or not you have obtained the services of 229 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: an attorney, because this can come about in a lot 230 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: of ways. Uh, Like if you have to you're trying 231 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: to prove this in court, you can bring an engagement letter, um, 232 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: some sort of contract that you've signed the outlines fees, 233 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: or just the relationship. It can be an oral agreement, UM, 234 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: as long as it's you know, both sides are acknowledging 235 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: that it could be that they have appeared for you 236 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: in court. Um, like you you know you don't go 237 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: to court that first day, Like your attorney goes on 238 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: your behalf and like file some something for you in court, 239 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: some sort of document. Then that is an official expressed acknowledgement. 240 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: So there are all kinds of ways that you can 241 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: have an attorney officially represent you. But it has to 242 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: go beyond just sitting in a room and saying like 243 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: I could use a little advice, like you have to 244 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: agree that you're engaging one another, right, um, So are 245 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: non legal legal advice to you. That is not legal 246 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: advice in any way, shape or form. Is if you 247 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: ever hire a lawyer, doesn't matter what kind of lawyer 248 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: it is. Before you tell them anything, say I would 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: like to take you on as my lawyer. Will you 250 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: take me on as your client? And if they say yes, 251 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: everything after that is now privileged as long as you're 252 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: not planning a crime, right yes, And you'll know that 253 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: happens because they start a little time or on their desk, 254 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: little dollar bill clinks. But even even without um an 255 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: express say like an engagement letter, or even them expressly 256 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: saying yes, I'm your lawyer. UM, I think courts have 257 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: kind of found over the years that there are certain 258 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: things that a person could reasonably expect that the the 259 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: lawyer has agreed to represent them. Right Like, if you 260 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: go to a lawyer that you've used before, UM, and 261 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: but you aren't currently engaged with, and they start doling 262 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: out legal advice because you told them your problem, the 263 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: a court would probably find that you had an attorney 264 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: client relationship and therefore there is attorney client privilege. UM. 265 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: If they quote you fees and then follow up with 266 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: some advice, I same thing. It's more just like the 267 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: client can't unilaterally say we had an attorney client relationship. 268 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: So this is protected that there has to be some 269 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: sort of sign or signal from the lawyer as well 270 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: that that there's a relationship there. Yeah, And speaking of 271 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: signs or signals, uh, apparently it doesn't even have to 272 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: be like a verbal communication that like you could look 273 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: at your attorney and say like, well, you can ask 274 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: him a question and they could just sort of give 275 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: you a wink and tap their nose and that could 276 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: be used in court. You know. They don't have to 277 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: expressly say something out loud even no, that can't be 278 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: used in court. That's protected. Yeah, that's what That's what 279 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean. I mean that would come up, but it 280 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have to. Yeah, I think I just confused everybody. 281 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: But but yeah, you don't even have to be talking. 282 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: Like if if they say did you kill that person? 283 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: And you nod, that's protected community exactly, you know, um or. 284 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: I think they've even found that like a um a 285 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: sigh islens like a complete silence has protected communication too, 286 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: because you're not you're not denying things left unsaid pretty much. Yeah, 287 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: because if somebody's like, did you kill that person? And 288 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: you didn't. You're gonna say, hell, no, I didn't kill 289 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: that person. Get me out of this. If you're just 290 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: completely silent, I think a reasonable person might take that 291 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: as an ambition of guilt. But it's still a protected 292 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: communication between you and your lawyer. Should we talk about 293 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: people versus Meredith. I think so people v. Meredith. So 294 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: this was in California nineteen seventy six and a man 295 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: named Michael Meredith convinced his friend Frank Scott to uh 296 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: commit a crime, which was let's jump this guy, Mr 297 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: David Wade. Uh. They ended up shooting and killing him. 298 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if that was the original intent, but 299 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: that's what happened. They ran for it, they got arrested, 300 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: found and arrested, and then they were in jail. So 301 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: Scott's appointed counsel was one Mr James Shank, and he 302 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: went by to talk and they were kind of it 303 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: chatting around, and uh, Scott said something about a wallet. 304 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: He was like, yeah, we got the wallet from the victim. 305 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: We split the money up and put it in a 306 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: trash can. The lawyer then sends an investigator and actually 307 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: found that wallet and took it and gave it to 308 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: the cops. So obviously this was a key piece of 309 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: evidence that ended up um well, I mean it ended 310 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: up backfiring because his client rightfully went to prison, right 311 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: but Schenk was subpoenaed and said, you're going to be 312 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: found in contempt of court unless you admit like how 313 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: this thing went down and how you got this wallet. 314 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: And the whole key here is if he had never 315 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: went and got the wallet, then it still would have 316 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: been attorney client privilege. Yeah, because all he did was 317 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: received information in confidence from his client. It was when 318 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: he basically broke through into the real world and manipulated evidence, 319 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: that's when all that just changed everything and apparently broke 320 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: the broke the veil or the privilege of that communication. Well, yeah, 321 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: which is rightfully so because the courts I believe this one. Yeah. 322 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: I went all the way to the California Supreme Court. Uh, 323 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: they ruled rightfully that you can't do this because all 324 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: this is gonna do we allowed it. It would incentivize 325 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: defense attorneys to go out and like try and find 326 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: evidence right and collect it, and you don't want attorneys 327 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: doing that, yeah, because once they collected it, it would 328 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: enter the veil of privacy. And would be protected, and 329 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: you couldn't. You could never discover it. Um. Similarly, though, 330 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: and I think I agree with you. I think that 331 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: that's just logical and sensible, Like you can't you can't 332 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: allow attorneys to go do that kind of thing. Um. Similarly, 333 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: just because you communicated a fact doesn't mean that the 334 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: fact itself is protected from discovery, just that your communication 335 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: of that fact to your lawyer was protected. So if 336 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: there's other ways to find out that you did something, 337 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: and this seems just boneheadedly, I've yes, but apparently it 338 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: was worth spelling out and at least one of these articles. 339 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: If you said, yes, I killed that person, your lawyer 340 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: can't tell anybody you said that to them, But if 341 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: you said that to your wife, well, and your co worker, 342 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: your coworker can go can go testify against you. So 343 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: it's not like the fact that you have admitted that 344 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: you killed that person is protected. It's that the communication 345 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: between you and your lawyer about that fact is what's protected. Right, 346 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: So if it's otherwise discoverable, then it's fair game. Yeah, 347 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: It's not like you can enshrine a fact with your 348 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: lawyer and then it belongs to them and them only 349 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: and the rest of the world can never learn of 350 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: it legally speaking. That's good point. It doesn't make any sense, 351 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: but I guess it was worth working out. Uh, you 352 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: want to take a break, I think we shall. All right, 353 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: we'll go back and talk about this extending beyond the grave, 354 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: all right, Chuck. So, um, you have a relationship with 355 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: your attorney. Your attorney is like ten years old at 356 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: the time you hire him, and you're seventy, so you 357 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: pass on before your lawyer. Well, it turns out that 358 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: something comes up later on and somebody wants info from 359 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: your lawyer, private info that you gave them. Your lawyer says, 360 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: no way, Jose, this is covered by attorney client privilege. 361 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: That is true. Yeah, because that happened very famously with 362 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: Vincent Foster, who us most people know was a big 363 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: h He worked for the Clintons in Arkansas. He was 364 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: an attorney. He was one of their close attorneys, personal attorneys. 365 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: I think, yeah. So, uh, he ended up killing himself. 366 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: And if you if you have on your tinfoil hat 367 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: or if you go to these conspiracy websites, then h 368 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: then you firmly believe that Bill and Hillary Clinton murdered 369 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: this man with their with their parents. If you're a 370 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: reasonable human, you know that he fell into clinical depression. 371 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: And every single investigator an investigative unit, and there were 372 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: quite a few, including one Kinneth Star went out and said, yes, 373 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: he definitely committed suicide. Um, all the evidence was there. 374 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: So I feel like that's a spectrum you could you 375 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: could be somewhere on that spectrum between those two beliefs. 376 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: Oh what between thinking he killed himself and was murdered. Yeah, 377 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: so he was obviously involved in the infamous Whitewater real 378 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: estate deal. And when Kenneth Starr was investigating this stuff, 379 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: he tried to get his hands on notes created by 380 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: Foster's lawyer, and the lawyer said, no attorney client privilege, 381 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: even though this man is dead, And it went all 382 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: the way to the Supreme Court and they ruled six 383 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: to three that it must be honored even after the grave. Yeah. 384 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: I was really surprised that that was as recent as 385 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: it was. I thought that that would have been a 386 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: really old case that came up long ago. But yeah, 387 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: that was from the nineties, so that one was established 388 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: in um, well the nineties. I don't see when the 389 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: actual case or when the Supreme Court ruled on it um. 390 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: But that was that was one thing that was tested 391 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: in court. There was another one UM that had to 392 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: do with like employees giving testimony for their company. For 393 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: a long time, it was if you hired, if you 394 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: were a director level or a m an executive level 395 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: person in a company and you were talking to corporate council, 396 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: whatever communication was being made was protected. But then cases 397 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: started to come up, like what if somebody from accounting 398 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: was talking to corporate council about that case? Like is 399 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: that for tected and um. For a long time there 400 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: was this test called the control group test appropriately which 401 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: was basically, just are you one of the people who 402 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: is in a position to take the advice of legal 403 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: counsel and either run with it or decide not to 404 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: do with that? Are you like pretty high up in 405 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: the company. And if you weren't, then that speech wasn't protected. 406 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: But then over time they decided that no. One of 407 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: the reasons why we have this privilege is that we 408 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: want lawyers to be fully briefed on the facts of 409 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: the case so that they can figure out the best 410 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: defense or the best legal route to resolving this thing um. 411 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: And if they're not fully informed. Then we're kind of 412 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: hamstringing our attorneys. So we want them to know everything, 413 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: and they won't know everything unless people feel comfortable telling 414 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: them everything. Hence the attorney client privilege. Well, they said 415 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: that extends to employees as well, because employees sometimes have 416 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: information that members of that control group won't have. And 417 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: as long as they're talking about something that directly reflects 418 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: their job and the case at hand to that council, 419 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: that would be considered protected by the by the attorney 420 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: client privilege. That was the up John ruling I believe. Yeah. 421 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: And just this year, um, it's been making a lot 422 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: of headlines because of the Mueller investigation. When Trump's personal attorney, 423 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: or one of his personal attorneys, one Michael Cohen, had 424 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: his office rated in April this year into two thousand eighteen, 425 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: and the FBI sees all sorts of documents looking for 426 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: evidence of bank fraud, came back that it was part 427 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: of the Mueller investigation, and Trump starts tweeting about how 428 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: attorney client privilege is dead. Uh, And the attorney that 429 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: was quoted in this article said, no, it's not dead 430 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: at all. This is very typical. What's going on is uh? 431 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: There's a judge that his UH in the Cohen cases, 432 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: appointed what they call a taint team, one of the 433 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: more unfortunate unfortunately named teams UH. And what they do 434 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: this is a third party what they call an arms 435 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: length group of qualified people, so they're not involved with 436 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: with anyone in this investigation. And they go through all 437 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: the evidence gathered and say what's pertinent to the case, 438 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: what's not pertinent, and here's the pertinent stuff. It's not 439 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: like we're just trying to release everything ever said between 440 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: these two men right there, and they they are. They 441 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: take all the stuff they saw that didn't relate to 442 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: the case to their grave. So it is a form 443 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: and extension of attorney client privilege. Yeah, and especially in 444 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: the in the Cohen case, this UH. This attorney goes 445 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: on to say, because Cohen was performing little to know 446 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: actual legal work for Trump, UM, not much of what 447 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: was seized in the raid would be protected anyway. So 448 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: that's what this attorney says, that's his expert opinion. So 449 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: can't you see like one member of the taint team 450 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: at the bar being like the snow it it means 451 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: deterrek I quit saying that it's really important and vital 452 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: Oh that's good stuff. So we should talk about another 453 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: famous recent case of attorney client privilege or attorney client 454 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: privilege being violated. Actually with the Jodi Arias case. Yeah, 455 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about this one except 456 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: that um, she murdered someone right, yes, in cold blood. UM. 457 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: From what I read most recently, one of the alternate 458 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: jurors believes that she killed her ex boyfriend because he 459 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: was breaking up with her and she wanted to be 460 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: the last person he had sex with or the only 461 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: person he had sex with her the last one of 462 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: the two. UM went off the rails, stabbed him like 463 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: twenty nine times, cut his throat, shot him in the head, 464 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: and just left him for dead and ran off to 465 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: California and was caught within like a week or so 466 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: of his body being discovered. So she UM. She mounted 467 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: a defense that he was a pedophile, he abused her, UM, 468 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: and that he was in the act of physically abusing 469 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: her when she fought back and snapped and killed him. 470 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: Apparently that that was all just completely made up. That 471 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: he wasn't a pedophile, he wasn't an abuser, and he 472 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: was just trying to break up with her. That's the 473 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: way it stands now. And she was convicted of I 474 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: think premeditated murder, initially sentenced to death, a mistrial was 475 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: declared and she ended up with life without the possibility 476 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: of parole. So that's where it stands now. She um 477 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: publicly criticized her public defender, a guy named Kirk Nermi 478 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: and Um over the years. Kirk kind of put up 479 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: with it and then was diagnosed with cancer and said, 480 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: to hell with it, I'm writing to tell all book. 481 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: That's what he says. He says that he was he 482 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: had a bit of an epiphany, a reversal of his 483 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: his life in that cancer diagnosis, and said, I might 484 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: be dead. I can't let her be the only person 485 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: telling the side. The side of the story is he's 486 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: saying like a canary in this book. Oh yeah, man. 487 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: He he revealed stuff that didn't come out at trial. 488 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: He he gave his own personal assessment of her guilt 489 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: that she was definitely guilty, talked about how her mother 490 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: lying on the stand for her was laughable. Um, just 491 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff just ripped apart their attorney client privilege. 492 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: And so as a result, she's suing him big time. 493 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: So that's still in the middle of I mean, this 494 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: hasn't been decided, right, not as far as I know. 495 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: I think the article I read was from two thousand 496 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: and eighteen, so I don't think it's been decided yet. 497 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: I think he and he's defending himself saying no, when 498 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: she gave public interviews and talked about our private attorney 499 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: client conversation, she revoked privilege. She weighed her privilege in 500 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: doing so, and so I'm free to tell anybody anything 501 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: about it. So the California Bar, the Arizona Bar, I 502 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: think disbarred him. He agreed to disbardment without admitting misconduct. 503 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: And he's like a life coach or a professional coach 504 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: for lawyers. Interesting, Yeah, it is very interesting. Um, the 505 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: whole thing is super interesting. Her cases just gut wrenching 506 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: and the the this this new piece of it. He 507 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: basically hates her, hates her. He says that he was 508 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: forced into the smear campaign as a defense, that he 509 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: didn't want to have anything to do. He just hates 510 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: her guts and even her defense team said that that 511 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: he's developed some bizarre hatred of her. And he he 512 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: said in this quote in this Reuter's article that um 513 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: he was he was standing up to years of abuse 514 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: from her, So it's like a deep seated hatred. Um 515 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: one way or another, they ruined each other's lives. I 516 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,479 Speaker 1: think she blames him for botching her defense. He blames 517 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: her apparently for a whole whole slate of stuff. So 518 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,239 Speaker 1: so this will probably be another precedent center. Huh, I 519 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: would guess so. But it's a it's a civil so yeah, 520 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: I could still set president. But yeah, the fact that 521 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: he was disbarred that doesn't bode well for him. But 522 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: I have the feeling he's like, I'm dying of cancer, 523 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: so what ofs Yeah, screw it. So that's attorney client privilege. 524 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: I don't think we missed anything, did we? I don't 525 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: think so. There are probably little nitpicky things here and there. 526 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: It is, Uh, there are some definitely some gray areas, 527 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: but it's been shaped and reformed over the years. Imagine 528 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: will continue to be someone. Hey, one more thing I 529 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: want to say is um, I read and this is 530 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: kind of apropope, but not really. I read an article 531 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: probably about six months ago, maybe a little longer. It 532 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: was by a lawyer, you know how, like lawyers will 533 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: write like blog posts or articles or stuff like their 534 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: clients is on general stuff. This one lawyer wrote one 535 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: about how if you ever talked to the FBI without 536 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: a lawyer, you are an idiot. And he put it 537 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: like that, but no, he makes this really great case 538 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: for why most people, especially innocent people, would would think 539 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: I don't need a lawyer. And he said everyone needs 540 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: a lawyer when they're talking to the FBI. And he 541 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: laid out this really exquisite case, multiple point case why 542 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: to where by the end of it you're like, oh, yeah, 543 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: you need a lawyer if you're talking to the FBI. 544 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: It's pretty pretty amazing stuff. He's like, you're not qualified 545 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: to talk to the FBI. A lawyer can make you qualified. 546 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: You can't go in there and expect to be qualified. 547 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: It was really fascinating. I don't remember who wrote it, 548 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: but I think if you search something like if you 549 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: don't have a lawyer and speak to the FBI, you're 550 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: an idiot, something along those lines. It was fascinating. Just 551 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: call FED Protect Josh will pat you through for the people. Ah, 552 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: you got anything else? Nope? Okay, Well, if you want 553 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: to know more about attorney client privilege, you can type 554 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: that word in the search part how stuff works. And 555 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: since I said privilege, it's time for a listener mail. 556 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: I do have one more thing to say without getting 557 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: too much on a soapbox. I hope people take the time, 558 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: like to understand something like attorney client privilege, because when 559 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: the president is tweeting out things and all exclamation points 560 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: like attorney client privilege is dead, I think a lot 561 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: of people believe that to be true when they don't 562 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: even really understand the true legal sense of what this means. 563 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I totally agree with you, man. It's 564 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: just like it's misinformation that people think like a tweet 565 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: is means well, that's a fact, you know, and it's not. 566 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: It's a tweet, Yeah, something typed out on a phone 567 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: like do better? People with fat fingers sometimes too. Alright, 568 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: So moving on, I'm gonna call this Mercury Bobcat. Yeah. Hey, guys, 569 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: been listening for about a year and I just listened 570 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: to the Ford Pinto death Trap episode. To put this 571 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: timeline into context. I was born in This is what 572 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: makes this story perfect. If you ask me, Uh, when 573 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: I was a kid, my family had a powder blue 574 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: Mercury Bobcat sister card to the Pinto. Like he said, 575 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: my dad sold the car and bought it back eight 576 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,959 Speaker 1: years later, just before my sixteenth birthday. And I drove 577 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: this car for two years in high school, eventually selling 578 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: it to buy a vehicle compatible with highway travel because 579 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: a Bobcat could not top ninety kilometers per hour, which 580 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: is what I don't even know something like that. Well, 581 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: I knew the Pinto was generally regarded as unsafe. I 582 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: somehow did not know the extent of the carnage until 583 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: listening to the episode that you guys did, And after listening, 584 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: I can't believe my parents ever allowed me to get 585 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: behind the wheel of this car, although mine was a 586 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: seventy eight, so maybe that time they had faith in 587 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: the upgraded flaming death bolts. It's been about seven years 588 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: and this dude, he was born in ninety three. He 589 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: was driving this old car around well after its prime. Yeah, 590 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: he would have been driving it in the two thousand's 591 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: Like that's great. Yeah, it was like me. I had 592 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: a sixty eight Beatle when I was in the eighties 593 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: and everyone just thought I was weird with the ankle burner. Yep. Yeah, 594 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: it's been about seven years since I'll let the car go, 595 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: and now twenty four my friends and I missed the 596 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: car so much. I frequently search the Canadian version of Craigslist, 597 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: uh called KEG, hoping to buy it back. So that's 598 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: made up. I love this guy. That guy just he 599 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: just said some code word that we just said on air. 600 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: The Bobcat never went up in flames, but it did burn. 601 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: We did burn it up in it a few times. 602 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 1: I hear you man, and this can't know what you mean. 603 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: This is Owen from Nova Scotia, and uh, I think 604 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: that's pretty great. And I hope you get to buy 605 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: that car back. Dude, Yeah, good luck in your quests Owen. 606 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: Anybody out there in s y s k Land, if 607 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: you know where Owen's Bobcat is, help him out. Let 608 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: us know. We'll connect to same with my sixty eight beetle. 609 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: Oh that'd be something. I'd like to buy that thing back. Well, 610 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: if you guys know the vin number, just shout at 611 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: out you and knowing. Okay, agreed. If you want to 612 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: get in touch with me and Chuck, you can hang 613 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: out with us at our home on the web. Stuff 614 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: you should know dot com and there you will find 615 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: links to all of our many myriad social media sites. 616 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, while you're doing that, if you 617 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: want to dash off an email, you can send that 618 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: thing to Stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. 619 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 620 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: that how stuff works dot com.