1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence, 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen the new 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. A mixture of 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: grief and anguish for the family not knowing what happened 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: to two year old Jacob and three year old Sarah 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: in September. The children's mother, Catherine Hoggle, told Montgomery County 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: police that she left her children with a friend, but 13 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: she's never said who or where. The children's father, Troy Taylor, 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: believes she knows exactly what happened. Was murdered my children. 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: She was leaving Troy. Her main thing is sick with control. 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: That's her biggest sickness. She did not want him they 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: have the kids. Mental health professionals have repeatedly found Hoggle 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: not competent to stand trial. The stay can keep Katherine 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Hoggle locked up for five years or why they try 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: to restore her competency. If she remains incompetent in five years, 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: she may have to be released. Two children, a two 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: year old little boy a three year old little girl missing, 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. Where are Jacob and Sarah? I? 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being 25 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: with us. It was just after eleven o'clock on a 26 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: Friday night that police then get a call from a 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: local residence in Germantown stating that Katherine Hoggle, the children's mother, 28 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: was spotted at Century Rock Boulevard. Immediately, police go there 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: and they find Katherine Hoggle, but her missing children were 30 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: nowhere with her. The children have been missing and reported 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: to be with their mom, Katherine Hoggle, but then police 32 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: find Katherine. Where our Jacob and Sarah? Well. Many people 33 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: gathered at a Chick fil A parking lot on Saturday night. 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: We're praying to find the little children and the hopes 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: that they would be found safe and sound. As of 36 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: right now, their disappearance still remains a mystery because the 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: mom insists that overwhelmed with motherhood, she gave the children away. 38 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: She gave her children away and refuses to tell police 39 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: who she gave them to. Let's start with what we 40 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: know with me, Cold Case Research Institute Director Cheryl McCollum. 41 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: Also with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl White. First to you, 42 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. So much focus ended up on a local 43 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: Chick fil A in Maryland. Why needs because that's where 44 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: she was last seen on video. The mother that's right, 45 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle was actually spotted instrumentance video walking out of 46 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: a Chick fil A very surreptitiously. Cheryl, I mean, I 47 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: have looked at this video over and over. Some people 48 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: actually describe it as sneaky. Um. What about her demeanor 49 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: made it sneaky? Well? I mean again, you know, you 50 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: you get dropped off, you're gonna go in, you say 51 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: you just want some of the drink, and then you 52 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: slip out the side door and leave the children's father outside. 53 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's very sufficious. Wait wait wait, wait, wait 54 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: wait wait, Cheryl, take it from the beginning. Tell me 55 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: about that visit to Chick fil A and why it's 56 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: so sicknificant. Well, she tells the child, the children's father, 57 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: that she has dropped them off at a new daycare 58 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: and she just wants to go to Chick fil A 59 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: for something to drink. He drives her there. She goes 60 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: in the front door, presumably to go to the counter, 61 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: get a coke and come back, but no, she slips 62 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: up the side door. He does not see your leave. 63 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: So after a period of time he goes in the 64 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: Chick fil A to look for she's gone. So this 65 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: is what we know. That father is desperate and is 66 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: asking for help. He goes to the mom. He goes 67 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: to his wife, Katherine Hoggle. She says, oh, you know, 68 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: I enrolled I didn't like the last place. I enrolled 69 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: them in a new daycare, and I took him there, 70 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: and well let's go there. Now, can we stop and 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: get a drink at Chick fil A? So he goes, sure, 72 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: they stop at Chick fil A? And I'm looking at 73 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: the video right now. Let's post that on crime online 74 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: dot com place I can see her in the video. 75 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: She comes into us, like Cheryl mccllum is telling me, 76 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: kind of goes up to the counter and then leaves 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: out a side door. The husband's just sitting outside. Now 78 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: what we know is that the father is the one 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: who contacts police almost immediately and reports the mother and 80 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: the two children we're missing. It's interesting to me that 81 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: she also, Cheryl mccllum, and I'll tell you later why 82 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: this is so important, keeps her face turned away from 83 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: the surveillance video. I don't know if you notice that 84 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: or not, but okay, So she walks out of the 85 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: back door of Chick fil A and goes to a 86 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: Germantown transit center. What do we know happens after that? 87 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: Cheryl White is with me Crime Stories contributor. What do 88 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: we know, Cheryl, Well, all we know is that they 89 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: there are two tiny children missing. They've never been found. Now. 90 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: One part of the story from the Chick fil A 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: see is that they had been driving around. According to 92 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: the children's father, they had been he and Katherine, the 93 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: children's mother, had been driving around for a very long time. 94 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: She said, oh, I can't remember where this new daycare is. 95 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: That's when she said she needed something to drink, and 96 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: they stopped at the Chick fil A. So they've been 97 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: driving around for a while, and the father said he 98 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: was starting to get more than a little annoyed and worried. 99 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, he told her he was 100 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: driving her to the police stage unless she told him 101 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: where is the daycare? And she's like, gosh, you know, 102 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: I just signed him up. I can't remember where it is. 103 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: Just keep going, It's in here somewhere. Can I have 104 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: a coke? That's how that whole thing played out. But 105 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: then we've got a whole another story going on. Uh. 106 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: Sheryl McCallum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Police say 107 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: that that Sunday night, the mom takes the children to 108 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: her mother's house in Clarksburg, that she was going to 109 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: take her son Jacob for a pizza, but that when 110 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: she got back home three hours later to the mom's house, 111 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: he wasn't with her. She told the mom Jacob was 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: at the playmates house, right, So that's a whole another 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: story that she's telling. So police say Jacob was not 114 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: there and he hasn't been seen since. So which of 115 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: these stories are true? This all goes down while the 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: dad is out working. He has an overnight job, Cheryl, 117 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: like my dad used to have, so he's at work 118 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: when the mom says this happened, So what about that story? 119 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: We've got the story that she dropped them at a 120 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: new daycare. And then we've got this story that police 121 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: seemed to be confirming that Hoggle took the two babies 122 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: to her mom's house in Clarksburgh. Says she's taken Jacob 123 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: out for a pizza, comes back without him about three 124 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: hours later and says, oh, we stayed at the friend's house. Okay, 125 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: what do we know about that? Which of these, if 126 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: either are true? Well, we don't know. Oh, and that's 127 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: what's happening. You're having to build a case on live 128 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: and that's why this is so difficult. She's not telling 129 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: the truth ever. So you don't know where Jacob is, 130 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: you don't know the friends, you don't know whether aren't 131 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: police saying this, aren't police stating that she took the 132 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: children to her mom's house. Is that much true? I 133 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: believe that much is true, But I'm saying where Jacob 134 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: went from there, we don't know. We don't know what friends, 135 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: we don't know where she left him. And then it's 136 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: the next day on Monday. The dad has been working 137 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: on and he's like, where are the children, and she says, oh, 138 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: I put him in a new daycare. So, I mean, 139 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: if she's telling any of the truth, they did go 140 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: for pizza, there was a playmate, and she took them 141 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: to daycare the next morning. I don't think that's true. 142 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: I don't think any of that's true. But you know 143 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: as well as I do, when you have children and 144 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: their fathers involved, y'all have long discussions about daycare. That's 145 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: not a quick twitch. You investigate the daycare. You make 146 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: sure it's a good place, a safe place, and you 147 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: damn well know where the place is when you leave 148 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: your child there. Yes, I agree, That's why I don't 149 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: think any of this is true. Plus, I'm going back 150 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: to our last known signing. I mean the whole daycare. 151 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: That's the pile of bs alright, the B sameter is 152 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: like shrieking in my head. Um, So that never happened, 153 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: just for the reasons you just said. So, I'm already 154 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: back to what I know to be true. Police are 155 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: telling me she was spotted at her mother's house with 156 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: the children the night before, or at least one of them, 157 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: and that would have been on Sunday night. The dad 158 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: is at work, he works nights. She says she's taken 159 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: in for pizza. He's never seen alive again. So my timeline, 160 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: which is you know where I always start, Cheryl is Sunday. 161 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: That's they're not mentioning the little girl going, But that 162 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: is when, in my mind, that's when the children are 163 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: either sold, are given away, or worse. Now Cheryl McCullum, 164 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: we know the next day the dad is at the 165 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: Chick fil A and she leaves. What is her story 166 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: about giving her children away? She told everybody that she 167 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: gave them away, but she refused to say who she 168 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: gave them to. Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor. She is 169 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: insisting that she gave the children away and quote they 170 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: are safe, but she refuses to reveal where they are. Why. 171 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: What reason do we speculate or what reason that she 172 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: gives she gave the two babies away. Well, some are 173 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: saying that there's trouble in the relationship between the father 174 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: and and Katherine, the husband and wife. There. Um, one 175 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: thing haven't talked about as the third child. So my 176 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: question is why the two younger children and not the 177 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: older child? Right, there is a third child. That child 178 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: is safe and sound. Um. We also have statements by 179 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: the father. The father tells police that while he's at 180 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: work on Sunday afternoon, Hoggle's own father dries them to 181 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: the grandmother's house in Gaithersburg. Hoggle then borrows her father's car, 182 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: it's a Grade two thousand twelve Nissan Rogue, and tells 183 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: her parents she's taking Jacob to get pizza. So now 184 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm confirming again they're alive and well. On Sunday, Sunday afternoon, 185 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: the father and the grandfather and the grandmother place them alive. Okay, 186 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: So she disappears in the dad's Nissan rogue. She returns 187 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: three hours later, without the son or without food. Claims 188 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: she dropped the baby at the playmates house and then 189 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: came back went back to her home with her daughter. 190 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: That's the last time either of them have been seen alive. 191 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: Now let me ask you this, Cheryl McCullum, where the 192 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: children ever spotted on any surveillance video at a pizza 193 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: place or anywhere. No. Never tell me about the search 194 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: that ensued. Sheryl White. Well, it was a four day search, 195 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: and it was one of those intensive searches. You have 196 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: babies missing, and so they just mobilized the entire community. 197 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: It's police, it's family, it's friends, it's total strangers that 198 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: are searching everywhere, not only for the children, but for 199 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: Katherine as well, the mother too. She's missing at this 200 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: point as well. This is what we have for a description. 201 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: Sarah Hoggle is just the little girl is just three 202 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: ft six inches tall. She only weighs forty pounds, brown 203 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: eyes and brown hair. Brother j a cub three feet tall, 204 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: ways twenty five pounds. He has brown eyes and blonde hair. 205 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: Let me go ahead and give you the tip line now, 206 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: three oh one to seven nine eight thousand. Three oh 207 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: one to seven nine eight thousand, let's talk about Catherine 208 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: Hoggles description five six hundred and sixty pounds, brown eyes, 209 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: black hair, wearing blue jeans and a black tank talk. 210 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: That's what she was wearing with the children go missing. 211 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: When you run your own business, you know time equals money. 212 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: That's not just an old saying, it's true. 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According to Montgomery County Police Department, I remember 232 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: very well these two go missing, and for the life 233 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: of me, I could not understand why the mother, Katherine Hoggle, 234 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: would not divulge where her children were. Now shrinks will 235 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: tell you that she was having trouble with her marriage 236 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: and was overwhelmed with three children. She says she gave 237 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: them away, gave them away and refuses to state where 238 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: they went. Why? Why was she refused to state? Could 239 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: it be because she hates her husband so much she 240 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: doesn't want him to have them. Is she af ray? 241 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: She's going to be indicted for neglect or giving away 242 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: her children. Let's take a careful look at her behavior. 243 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: She is the key to the location of these children. 244 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: With me, Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor and Cheryl McCullum, 245 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, let's look 246 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: at her mommy's behavior before and after the children's disappearance. Absolutely, nay, 247 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: pre and post behavior are going to be key in 248 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: zero in her mind set here. So how was she 249 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: before the Sunday night Pezza and her mother's The things 250 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: that she said, the things that she did. Was her 251 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: focus on Jacob? Was she angry at him? Was she 252 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: angry at their father? Something was going on that now 253 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: people will be able to pick up and say, I 254 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: remember this. The post behavior, her wondering around saying that 255 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: she gave them away. She hasn't called the police, she 256 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: wasn't worried about him, she hasn't organized searches. All of 257 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: that's going to be imperative, and I hate to tell 258 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: you its rings of Casey Anthony Ah, I was thinking 259 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: the same thing I didn't even want to say the 260 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: words taught mom. How do you compare Hoggle Catherine Hoggle 261 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: to tot Mom Casey Anthony, who murdered I believe murdered 262 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: her little girl, Keilly. What about it, Shall McCollum. Well, 263 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: here you are. You have her, you know, going with 264 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: her own parents, riding in the car or having some 265 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: fine so get pizza. It sounds like a great normal, 266 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: you know evening. Next thing you know, oh, I gave 267 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: him away, gave them away? What just like top Mom, 268 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: Casey Anthony blames Zenia Gonzalez that pretend nanny was so 269 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: freaky about that is she had been She taught Mom 270 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: had been looking at an apartment, uh Sawgrass on Sawgrass Road, 271 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: I believe it was. And police go to that apartment 272 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: to check out her story and Nieda Gonzalez had actually 273 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: been there before Todd Mom and signed in, signed in 274 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: that she was going to look at a model apartment. 275 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: So top Mom goes there, sees the name that's where 276 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Zenya Gonzalez came from. Correct, And it turned out to 277 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: be a real person whose name was ruined by her 278 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: connection to Top Mom, Casey Anthony and the disappearance of Kelley. 279 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: She was forever connected to that, and it also waked 280 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 1: but a whole lot of Yeah, they defines the night 281 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: of Gonzalez, who had never met Casey Anthony in her life. 282 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: So here we've got the same thing as Cheryl McCollum 283 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: is pointing out, a fabricated story and a refusal to 284 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: divulge where the children really are. Now by this time 285 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: there was a search. After Katherine Hoggle leaves the chick 286 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: fil A. There is a man hunt or should I 287 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: say a woman hunt for Katherine Hoggle, who to this day, 288 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: to this moment that you're hearing us here on Syrius 289 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: Sex in two, if still the key to the case, 290 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: we still don't have the children. Take a listen to 291 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: the guy that fortuitously spots Katherine Hoggle. Listen. It was 292 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: a little after eleven fifteen in the evening. Nicholas Stewart 293 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: knew there was something unusual about the woman wondering about 294 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: the parking lot of his Germantown complex as he went 295 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: to take out the trash, and he couldn't put his 296 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: finger on it at first. I mean, I see her 297 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: walking towards me. I didn't think anything. Maybe it was 298 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: just a resident. Um, I see her pacing back and forth. 299 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: But the woman's behavior grows more unusual, especially, he says, 300 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: and she went into a breezeway in the complex. He says, 301 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: she seemed lost and confused. She went like this. She 302 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: saw me. She went like this, and then I turned around, 303 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: and then I see her come out, and she looked 304 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: like this, and then walked here and then just stopped. 305 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: He decided to keep an eye on her, and they 306 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: actually exchanged words or something. Told me to just keep looking, 307 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: and she asked me for the time. I said, I 308 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: do not have the time. My phone is actually dead 309 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: at the time, and she said, thank you. Um, my 310 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: phone is dead too. Stewart says he ran to his apartment, 311 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: looked at the flyer again and realized it was indeed 312 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: Catherine Hargell, the woman lasted scene earlier in the week 313 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: and calling on camera and surveillance footage. I actually watched 314 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: one of the surveillance videos of her ten minutes before 315 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: I spotted lady. Steward says he ran to a nearby 316 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: police station to get help. They got to the scene 317 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: at Century Boulevard It in Crystal Rock, driving took Hoggle 318 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: into custody, so you know, Sheryl White. Sheryl McCollum. It's 319 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: just dumb luck really, because this guy had just looked 320 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: at a flyer that was posted, I believe above hit 321 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: the mailboxes at this apartment complex or this this location structure. 322 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: He sees the flyer of the two children and Katherine Hoggle. 323 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: Then he less than a minute passes he sees Hoggle 324 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: and he he says, she was, you know, acting covertly, 325 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: just like you said she did in the Chick fil 326 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: A Sheryl McCollum. He goes up to her. They have 327 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: a conversation. He says, um, well, I can't use my phone. 328 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: It's dead. She goes, oh, mind's dead too. She seemed 329 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: absolutely perfectly normal, Ryl White, completely normal. One thing missing, 330 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: make that too, the children, Sheryl White. Yeah, the children 331 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: are still missing. Uh then and now and she she 332 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: all she'll say is that they are safe and that 333 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: there with someone else. And there was a chase, a 334 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: short chase before police could apprehend her, which I find 335 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: interesting that she ran. Interesting, Sheryl McCollum. When your children 336 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: are missing, as Sheryl White says, the guy immediately calls 337 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: the police the number on the flyer. Police show up 338 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: a chase ensuits. If my children are missing and laying 339 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: on the front steps of the police station, I'm laying 340 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: there screaming. She runs from police, Cheryl. She runs from police, 341 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: and when they get her, she has snatched down one 342 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: of the flyers that had been posted. She had taken 343 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: it down so nobody could see it, and it was 344 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: in her hand, Cheryl when cops get her after she runs, 345 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: Cheryl wanted away. She doesn't want the children fail, she 346 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be captured herself, and again, holding that 347 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: fire in her hand tells you she didn't want anybody 348 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: else to find it either. This is where the search 349 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: for the babies takes a very unusual turn. Of course, 350 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: Hoggle has taken into custody and questioned about the location 351 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: and her children. Take a listen to what her husband 352 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: says regarding the children's disappearance. I want to thank all 353 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: of you in the community and in the media for 354 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: all your support you have shown me, myself, Sarah and Jacob, 355 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: my family throughout the entire process. As I'm sure you understand, 356 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: it's been a very emotional time for myself and and 357 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: others who love my family and my children. Uh, I 358 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: just decided to go ahead and read a prepared statement 359 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: and then not take questions today. UM, Katherine Hoggle has 360 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: murdered my children, and I hope there and Jacob get 361 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: the justice they deserve. I have held out hope that 362 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: something else may have happened, as I think that any 363 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: parent under these circumstances would, But it has always been 364 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: a faint hope. And I know now with the passage 365 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: of time, that Catherine killed my babies for the From 366 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: the very beginning of this process three years ago, the 367 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorneys Office have been 368 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: very consistent in their theory on this case. I know 369 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: that they are right, and I fully support the charges 370 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: handed down here today. I also knew they were UM. 371 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: I knew there was a good chance they're right from 372 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: the beginning. In addition to the investigation by the local police, 373 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: with the support of the family and of family and friends, 374 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: I've had my own professional private investigator study the facts 375 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: and UM, this isn't part of the rim part. But UM, 376 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: in the beginning, they came in with an open mind. 377 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: After investigating, they came to the same conclusion as the 378 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: state's turns off the end. The police UM actually hired 379 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: two or three of I'm kind of like getting the 380 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: second opinion from a doctor, and they all came back 381 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: the same. Everyone who has reviewed this agrees that Katherine 382 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: murdered Sarah and Jacob. I'm sure Jerry will agreed, and 383 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: I hope Sarah and Jacob get their day in court. UM. 384 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's somebody's I'm sorry. I want 385 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: again to express my sincere thanks to the community and 386 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: UM to you the media for all your support and 387 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: everything you guys have done. Uh. Please keep my family, 388 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: Sarah and Jacob in your prayers. I hope with the 389 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: charges handed down today, we're moving closer to getting justice 390 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: for them, and that's what it needs to be about, 391 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: from beginning to end, and in justice for my babies. 392 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: Cheryl White with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl McCollum, Director 393 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum. What I 394 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: mean this is right after she is brought into court 395 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: by police and she is questioned under oath by the 396 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: judge about where are your children and she still refuses 397 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: to say. The husband says to conflicting statements one he 398 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: believes his wife had been drugged when all this happened. Okay, 399 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: and too that she's acting that. She says she wants 400 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: to be found incompetence so she can't be charged with 401 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: giving away her children. Cheryl McCullum, Now that I think 402 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: we're getting somewhere, because Nancy, she's been play acting the 403 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: whole time. She pretended to take Jacob for pizza, she 404 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: pretended they read a new school. She pretended to go 405 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: by a coach. That's what she's good at. And when 406 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: they get closed to her, she tries to escape in 407 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: some way. She hides her face, she hides her identity. 408 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 1: She runs from police. The breaking news that Catherine Hoggle, 409 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: the mother of the two missing children, was located in 410 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: Germantown there in Maryland and immediately taken into custody after 411 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: she leaves them on a brief foot chase. When they 412 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: get her, Mommy is clutching a flyer that has been posted, 413 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: tearing it down so nobody else can see the children 414 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: or the tip line number. She refuses to say what 415 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: happened to the children. At this moment, police still searching 416 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: for the two children, Sarah and Jacob. Then they give 417 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: a statement. They are extremely concerned for the children's welfare. 418 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: She has taken us all down the garden path, Cheryl McCullum. 419 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: Just hours after she slips out the back door of 420 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: a Chick fil A, she boards a county bus near 421 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: that restaurant, goes down Route one eighteen Germantown Road between 422 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: Interstate to seventy and goes to the Germantown Commons shopping center. 423 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: She takes that bus after giving the husband a slip 424 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: at Chick fil A. She rides the bus to the 425 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: transit center I told you about to Lake Forest Mall 426 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: and gets off. She sited there on videotel ape and 427 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: she is seen going in and out of various locations 428 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: in that shopping mall. Cheryl McCollum. Then police go there. 429 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: They go there to retrace her steps, hoping to find 430 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: a trace of the children. Instead, they found the contents 431 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: of her pocket book thrown in a bathroom in the building. 432 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: What does that mean, Cheryl? What's she trying to get 433 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: rid of her identity? Who she is so when somebody 434 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: catches her, even if it's in another town or city, 435 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: she can make up a name and a date of birth. 436 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: It's not gonna be her. She's got gonna exist anymore. 437 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: You know, this plot seemingly gets more and more intricate. 438 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: So we have her, let's retrace it, Cheryl and Cheryl, 439 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: Cheryl White and Chryl McCullum. We have her with the 440 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: children alive at her mother's house. We have her father, 441 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: the children's grandfather, giving her his car. She puts Jacob 442 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: in the car, claiming they're going for pizza, coming back 443 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: without him three hours later, stating that he stayed with 444 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: his friend. She takes the baby away, claiming they're going home. 445 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: The husband's at the night shift. Whoever she gave baby 446 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: Jacob too that night or whatever she did with him. 447 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: She takes the little girl. She leaves with a little girl. 448 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: The little girl has never seen alive again. The dad 449 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: gets home from work where the children, Oh, I took 450 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: him to a new daycare. Nobody's seen the children since 451 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: the night before Sunday night. They start looking for the daycare, 452 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: can't find it. She goes into Chick fil A she 453 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: wants to coke. She slips out the side. She then 454 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: eludes her husband who's sitting in the parking lot, takes 455 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: a bus, gets away from him and goes to a 456 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: shopping center. She goes in and out of several locations. 457 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: Police find out about it. They go a retrace her steps, 458 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: they don't find her. They find her pocketbook has been emptied. 459 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Why flyers Over ten thousand flyers go up all over town. 460 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: A guy is looking at the flyer over a mailbox, 461 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: then turns around to see Katherine Hockle. She has a 462 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: perfectly normal saying conversation with him. His girlfriend immediately calls police. 463 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: They come. She leads them on a brief but fast 464 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: paced foot chase. When they get her, she has torn 465 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: down the flyer of the children with the tip line. 466 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: She's taken to police headquarters. She's questioning court. She refuses 467 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: to say where the children are, and the husband insists 468 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: she's acting. Listen to what he says one more time. 469 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle has murdered my children, and I hope Sarah 470 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: and Jacob get the justice they deserve. I have held 471 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: out hope that something else may have happened, as I 472 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: think that any parent under these circumstances would, But it 473 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: has always been a faint hope, and I know now 474 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: with the passage of time that Katherine killed my babies 475 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: for the From the very beginning of this process three 476 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: years ago, the Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorney's 477 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: Office have been very consistent in their theory on this case. 478 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 1: I know that they are right, and I fully support 479 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: the charges handed down here today. I also knew they 480 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: were UM, I knew there was a good chance they're 481 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: right from the beginning. So where is Jacob? Where is Sarah? 482 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: Tipline three zero one to seven nine eight thousand. Then 483 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: and another twist, Cheryl White Crime Stories contributor. She now 484 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: claims she's paranoise schizophrenic. Okay, her husband says she's acting. 485 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: The children are still missing. When did that come about? 486 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: So now we see a mental defect. I mean she 487 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: told her husband she wants to be found incompetent so 488 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: she can't be charged or go to jail. What do 489 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: we know about her claims that paranoise get sophrenia Cheryl White, Well, 490 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: she has a history of mental issues. Here's Here's something 491 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: I find extremely odd is that shortly after she was 492 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: taken into custody, she told her family members that she 493 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: would take police to her children. Um, but she had 494 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: to do it personally, So She went to court then 495 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: to get a judge's okay that she could take them 496 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: to the children. But that's not what ended up happening. Well, 497 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: when she got to court, her attorneys said Hoggle is 498 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: in no mental condition to make the claim to take 499 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: them on the journey to the children, and that in fact, 500 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: she did not want to help, and that her condition 501 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: was so deteriorated she should not even be interrogated. Wow, 502 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: that's convenient, Cheryl McCullum. So she says, okay, okay, I'm 503 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: tired of jail. Let me out and I will take 504 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: you to the children. You know what, do you remember 505 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: that wild goose chase that top Mom Casey Anthony led 506 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: police on in the search for uh Zanina Gonzalez. They 507 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: went all over town. They went to sell aggress apartments. 508 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: She claims she worked at Universal Man she had it down. 509 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: She even got to the security entrance and told them 510 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: that she worked there, and they're like, wow, we can't 511 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: find you on the employee list, and she goes, yeah, 512 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: I did work here. Hey, you can call my my 513 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: co employees. And she gave names and phone numbers extensions 514 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: her names of people that worked at Universal and the 515 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: security was calling them, and so police are onto so 516 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: they take her in and and they get all the 517 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: way up to the door and they're going into Universal, 518 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: and she says, okay, ah, you got me, like it's 519 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: some kind of a game. I do not really work 520 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: at Universal anymore. And all this time she had been 521 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: sitting on her parents sofa, eating their food out of 522 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: their fridge and letting them take care of the baby, 523 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: claiming she worked at Universal. She would even put on 524 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: an Universal outfit with tags old I D tags and 525 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: leave to go lay up at her boyfriend's apartment. So 526 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: it's such a charade. And Cheryl McCullum, it sounds like 527 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: the same thing with Katherine Hoggle. Yeah, I think Katherine's 528 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: overplaying her hands a little bit, because you know Nancy 529 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: better than me. Schizophrenic doesn't mean you don't go to jail. 530 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: The one reason you're gonna stay out of jail is 531 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: if you can demonstrate you don't know right from wrong. Well, 532 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: she's already to me proven beautifully she knows what she's 533 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: done is wrong again, from trying to hide her face 534 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: to running from the police, to want to involve the 535 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 1: police and not calling number one one to take him 536 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: down the poster. She knew. So now this is her 537 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: latest game. Well, let me tell you a little story. Okay, Alan, dieca, 538 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: hear you groaning in the background, But Alan, I want 539 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: some My boss the longest serving district attorney in the 540 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: country at that time it was Louis Slayton. And oh boy, 541 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: let me tell you. Louis Slayton was like a grandfather 542 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: to me. You know, when I first started prosecuting, women 543 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: and minorities were not in many jurisdictions allowed to try cases. 544 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: They would be relegated to child support recovery. You know, 545 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: deadbeat dads Cheryl McCullum, remember this. Or they'd have to 546 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: go to ju V g V g V court where 547 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: there were no juries um, or you'd write appeals. Not 548 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: Mr Slayton. If you could try a case, he'd put 549 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: you in front of a jury. So I manage to 550 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: beg my way in to the courtroom. And I had 551 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: a guy one day, let's just slate and call him. 552 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: He goes, we got a problem. I'm like, what what 553 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: is he? Guys, I want you to handle this case. 554 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: Come out of the courtroom and focus on this case. 555 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm not great. There was a woman who had apparently 556 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: committed suicide. And I didn't know exactly what he wanted 557 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: me to do, but you know, I started with going 558 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: to the crime lab and looking at the evidence. And 559 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: I met with this old guy. He had an accent 560 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: much worse than mine, believe it or not, and we 561 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: put the bed sheets. She had was naked and had 562 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: laid down in the bed and shot herself in the head. 563 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: And we were just standing there looking at them, and 564 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: he had a light behind them. We were looking at them. 565 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: They were hanging up like a poster, and we noticed 566 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: he noticed, I'm going to give him the credit, there 567 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: was a blood spatch her underneath where the pillow had been. Obviously, 568 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: it was not a suicide. First of all, women, if 569 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: you look at the method and assessment of homicide and suicide, 570 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: you would know it's extremely rare for a woman to 571 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: shoot herself in the head or the chest, but specially 572 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: the head. Second, never, never, never, very rarely does a 573 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: female commit suicide without her clothes on. Don't ask me why, 574 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: this is just what I know by statistics. So right 575 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: then we knew, and as I had suspected, this was 576 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: no suicide. Okay, so immediately start looking at the husband. 577 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: I fine do a whole handful of subpoenas and start 578 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: stalking his friends and colleagues. I mean sitting out in 579 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: the parking lot waiting for them to come out of 580 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: work behind cars. And when they come out of hand him, uh, 581 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: subpoena ducas chicke And which is is paying it for documents? 582 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: For any letters he has written them? Well, guess what 583 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: he writes. Simmons says, um, something about they're gonna find 584 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: if they decide if they believe that I killed my wife. 585 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure they think that I'm crazy, 586 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: and I'll just stay in the crazy house for a 587 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: few years making sand sculptures and you know how you 588 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 1: pour sand into a little bottle and make a picture 589 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: and at the end and then I'll get out and 590 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: keep it cool and ps and don't kill your wife. Okay, 591 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: you know we had no money. I had to pay 592 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: my own money to go to Kinko's to turn all 593 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: of his letters into giant posters. The joy I felt 594 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: when I put up all those posters in the courtroom 595 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: and would go through each one word for word. I 596 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: was so happy. So here you go. Now she's paranoid schizophrenic. Um. 597 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: I still don't know where the children are. The most 598 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: recent development is there has been a charge, a charge 599 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: against the mother, Katherine Hoggle, that has gone down in 600 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: the last weeks. The schizophrenic, allegedly schizophrenic mother thirty years 601 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: old of two missing children has now been charged with murder. 602 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle, aged thirty, has been indicted on two counts 603 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: a first degree murder, accused of killing her two year 604 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: old son and her three year old daughter. I want 605 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: to go to you, Cheryl McCollum. They've never been found. 606 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: The people she allegedly gave her children to have never 607 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: been found. How do we know they weren't sold. How 608 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: do we know she didn't just give them away? There's nobody. 609 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: How is she charged with murder? Cheryl? Well, it's a 610 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: nobody homicide case, Nancy. And what we do know is 611 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: at this point years have gone by, the children would 612 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: have started school to whoever she gave the children to 613 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 1: would have had to take them to school, to the doctor, 614 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: other places. At this point, they know a manhunt has 615 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: been going over for the children. This couple, if they existed, 616 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: would have come forward in some way. They haven't done 617 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: anything wrong. But they're not raising two children with you know, 618 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: no paperword, no birth certificate or anything like that. It's 619 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: not true. So again, common sense tells us by her actions, 620 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: trying to escape all the time, trying to hide her identity, 621 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: trying to hide out in a mental institution, that she 622 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: has done something horrible with these two children. We are 623 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: posting right now on crime online dot com an artist impression, 624 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: an age progression of what the children would look like today, 625 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: if alive. We're getting this from National Center of Missing 626 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: and Exploited Children, and you can see that on crime 627 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: online dot com. As of right now, these two children 628 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: have been deemed murder victims. Do we know if any 629 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: evidence was found, such as blood, um, their clothing, a 630 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: shallow grave, anything to suggest that they are dead? Sheryl White, Well, 631 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: what I do know is that state's attorney, John McCarthy says, 632 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: we would never have filed the charges indicted her onto 633 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: murder charges if we didn't feel we have a case. 634 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: Take a listen to what the state attorney in Montgomery 635 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: County has to say. Under Maryland law, an individual charged 636 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: with only misdemeanors can only be hospitalized and detained and 637 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: a formal hospital slash prison setting for a maximum period 638 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: of three years. She has been incarcerated in that facility, 639 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: essentially receiving evaluations on a regular basis for her competency 640 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: to stand trial over the last three years. The deadline 641 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: for those three years came today. Uh, the court today 642 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: would have had to dismiss the charges against her, and 643 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: we would have had to release Miss Hoggle as a 644 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: matter of law because she could not be held any 645 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: longer on those misdemeanors. Therefore, we sought an indictment from 646 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: the grand jury yesterday charging her with the two counts 647 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: of murder. Again, there was no advantage to moving forward. 648 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: I will tell you that as long and I think 649 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: I publicly said this before up, as long as there's 650 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: not an indictment, you are allowed to continue to use 651 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: a grand jury for the purposes of a criminal investigation. 652 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: Once you indict a case, you lose that option, You 653 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: lose that right. That was an investigative tool that we 654 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: had available to us. It did not make any sense 655 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: if she remained incompetent to lose that tool well because 656 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: of the law that would have dictated she would become 657 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: free without any ability for us to check on her 658 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: whereabouts or her medical station. It became incumbent on us 659 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: to take the additional step to seek the indictment for 660 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: the two counts of murder that we did yesterday. The 661 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: laws now changed in terms of how long we can 662 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: halt her for the purposes of the evaluation. Miss Hoggle 663 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: can now be held five years now charged with the 664 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: felony for the purposes of the doctors to attempt to 665 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: restore her to competency. Composing just basically means you have 666 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: to have a basic understanding of the nature of the 667 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: charge it against. You don't have to be able to 668 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: assist your attorney in defending yourself. This has nothing to 669 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: do with her guilt or innocence. Like I am tremendously frustrated, 670 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: and I've said this in court before. Am I frustrated 671 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: that we were here three years into this and she's 672 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: not been a restored to competency? Absolutely? I am Why 673 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: am I frustrated? Well, she's been Look, this is a 674 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: woman who had a and again I'm talking about things 675 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: that are in the public record. This was a young 676 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: woman who had had prior hospitalizations, She had been identified 677 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: with psychiatric issues prior to the disappearance of her kids. 678 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: She had been in various hospitals, she had been restored 679 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: to competency before through psychotropic medications and reintroduced back into 680 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: the community. I had every hope when she went to 681 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 1: purpose three years ago that we would have that same 682 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: thing occur. She would fall into the care of psychiatrists, 683 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: they would determine what her need was, and they would 684 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: begin through a regiment of medications to restore competency that 685 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: would allow us to move forward. So I am tremendouslyrustrated, 686 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: as I can tell you. Look, I'm sure any member 687 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: of the family on either side of this will tell 688 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: you above all, they are tremendously frustrated. They knew the 689 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: psychiatric history, they knew about the restoration of competency in 690 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: other cases, and they want to know why hasn't the 691 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: hospital been able to do that. It's a frustration for 692 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: all of us. But again, we've just taken steps legally 693 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: to give them additional time to do that. And I 694 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: don't think we had any other option but to seek 695 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: the indictment we saw it yesterday. It was the only 696 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 1: way to adequately I think protect the public and protect 697 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 1: some individual people in particularly back to Cheryl McCollum, director 698 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl For the longest time, 699 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: Katherine Huggle stays at a cushy psych facility repeatedly attempting 700 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: to escape, and then when she's caught trying to escape, 701 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 1: she says she wants to go see her children, and 702 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: she'll leave police to her children in order or to 703 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: get out. What do you make of that, Sheryl McCollum, 704 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: The key is eight times she is attempted to escape. 705 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: If she wanted her children to be okay, she would 706 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: tell them where to go get them and let the 707 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: children be So what does this say to you? Every 708 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: time she wants to get out she says she'll lead 709 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: the police to her children. That doesn't sound crazy to me. 710 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: It sounds like a stunt to me. That sounds like, 711 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: if you let me out, I will do something for you. 712 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: That's the contortion. Another issue, to Sheryl White Crime Stories contributor, 713 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: is this charge has just come down because the legal 714 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: time limit the statute of limitations on the three misdemeanors 715 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: the child neglect misdemeanors that she had been charged with 716 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,439 Speaker 1: initially were about to give out, which means she would 717 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: have walked free, Okay, right after they go missing. You've got, like, 718 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: you know, a year or so on the statute of 719 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: limitations on misdemeanors is one to three years, and once 720 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 1: that ends and you haven't been prosecuted, you walk free, 721 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: of course, unless you filed a demand for speedy trial, 722 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: which she did not. So she's about to walk free 723 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: and this murder charge comes down. Is that the way 724 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: it goes, Sheryl White, That's the way it goes exactly. 725 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,320 Speaker 1: So time was running out. So she was indicted on 726 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: two counts of murder for the two missing children, and 727 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,879 Speaker 1: now she can be held for five years under medical care. 728 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: Now that she's been indicted on the murder charges, she 729 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 1: can only be held for five years if she is 730 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: deemed incompetent. So I guess the first step Cheryl McCollum 731 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,800 Speaker 1: is going to be a competency trial that is not 732 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: necessarily a trial on the merits of the case. Is 733 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: simply to determine whether she is competent. That does not 734 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: go to insanity. It's very simply, can you aid your 735 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: lawyer during your trial? Are you competent enough to help 736 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: your lawyer get through the trial? That's all this year. 737 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: He is Cheryl, That's all it is. And I think 738 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: it is imperative that the prosecution get their own doctor 739 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: to examine her, not the folks from this institute that 740 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: she's been at. Why do you say that, because you 741 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: need to have somebody that is just seeing her in 742 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: evaluating her from right now, not the people that have 743 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: already bought into her game. They there, they already have 744 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: their mind made up. The search for the children goes 745 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: on as of right now, these two children still missing. 746 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 1: Last seen when her husband wakes up to find all 747 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 1: three of them no longer in their home. She comes 748 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: back in the minivan without the children. Where where are 749 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: Jacob and Sarah? Are they dead? Are alive? Nancy Grace 750 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:08,280 Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself 751 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a 752 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: group of people just like you to talk motives and 753 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: alibis with. 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