WEBVTT - What Truckers Already Know About the Future of Electronic Worker Surveillance 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.360 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.960 I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe. Joe. Do you remember 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.960 when we had Gordon McGill on to talk about trucking. Yeah, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.680 that's what that's like an iconic. I mean, there's recent, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.000 but that's like a odd lots classic already and a 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.040 bunch of people of reaching. That was a great episode. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.720 It was he said, I mean, he said a bunch 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.360 of things that were very interesting, but he said something 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.520 in particular where he was talking about an upcoming book 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:44.040 by a Cornell University professor called Data Driven, and the 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.199 idea was to explore the role of technology in the 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.280 trucking industry. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I think this 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.400 is a really important area to explore because, of course, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.440 as we've discussed with Gored, but also other episodes that 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:02.560 we've done on trucking, truckers are monitored increasingly. They're these 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.720 e l d s electronic logging devices, the track hours, 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.640 things like that, and you know, obviously this affects truckers, 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.840 but you know we may all be tracked by e 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.800 l d s as workers were. Right, So there's two 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.160 interesting things here. So one you would expect that monitor 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.720 monitoring technology UM like the e l D s that 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.080 they're using would be sort of like anatama to a 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.240 lot of the truck driving industry, Like a lot of 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.920 truckers go into it thinking they're going to be independent, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:32.840 they have the freedom of the road, and then it 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.200 turns out that they're like eye movements and brain waves 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.160 are going to be tracked and monitored. So that's interesting. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.000 And then secondly, given the shift towards work from home 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:47.119 for a wide variety of workers, it does seem like 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.680 surveillance technology in general could become more of a thing. Well, 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.960 and the other really important thing that I think maybe 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.800 I don't know something profound about how business works or 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.320 capitalism works, etcetera, is like there is this core problem right, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.640 like why does e l D exist in the first place, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.600 attempt to solve problems truckers on the road for too 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.040 long that creates fatigue, that creates accidents, like some sort 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.880 of impulse behind these rules that curtail how long someone 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.919 could be on the road, But rather than address why 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.640 are they on the road to love, why is there 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.280 truck or fatigue? Why has fatigue been part of trucking? 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.800 And you know forever, rather than figuring out different ways 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:27.960 to do that, let's just crow come up with a 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.720 monitor system, rather than addressing the core issue that creates 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.239 the need for these time constraints and monitoring systems in 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.799 the first right. So the question is also whether or 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.000 not technology is the right solution to the problem it's 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.200 trying to solve. Okay, well, I'm very happy to say 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.080 we have the perfect guest because we are going to 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.359 be speaking with the author of the book that was 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.680 referenced by Gord. We are going to be speaking with 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:54.040 Karen Leavy. She is an associate professor at Cornell University 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.920 and also the author of Data Driven Truckers Technology and 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.040 the New Workplace Surveillance, which just just came out. So, Karen, 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.320 thank you so much for coming on all thoughts, Thanks 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.200 so much for having me. This is a really interesting 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.720 topic and I'm glad we have the chance to dive 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.120 into it further. Maybe just to begin with, you know, 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.200 Joe kind of alluded to this in the intro, but 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:19.640 what exactly is the problem that this workplace surveillance technology 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.560 that's been mandatory in the trucking industry. I think since 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.480 seen what exactly is it trying to solve Yeah, I 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.160 mean the way you guys talked about it kind of 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.200 in the lead up, I feel like perfectly encapsulates it. 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.520 So the e l D, the electronic logging device, as 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.360 you mentioned, is federally mandated in the trucking industry. All 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.200 long haul truckers have to buy and install and use them. 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.480 And ostensibly the goal is related to safety, right, as 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.920 you alluded to, we know that truckers are really tired. 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.600 We know they're incredibly overworked and underslept, and obviously that 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.280 has you know, that's high stakes, right. There are thousands 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.440 of truck related accidents a year and fatalities from those accidents. 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.600 It's really cost billions of dollars every year. Um, So 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.320 like nobody wants that, right, and including truckers, nobody wants 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.080 the roads to be on safe. I don't want to 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.040 be next to a tired trucker on the road, nobody, Like, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.000 we're all aligned on that. But what's interesting, as you 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.760 point out, is not like is you know the way 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:12.680 that we have sort of chosen to address that in 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.920 this case is via technology. So the electronic logging device 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.400 is sort of, um the centerpiece of this effort to 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.560 make truckers comply with the timekeeping regulations that they're subject to. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:25.640 I think this is something Gordon talked about two in 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.320 the episode he was on right, Like, truckers for since 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.440 the thirties have been bound to, you know, work no 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:32.760 more than a certain number of hours every day and 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.360 every week, and that's for safety reasons. The problem, as 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.520 I know, you know you'll have discussed, you know, on 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.400 on Board show and on other shows, is that the 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.480 way truckers are paid, like does not align with those incentives. Right. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.400 They're paid by the mile. Truckers have the saying if 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.080 the wheel ain't turn in, you ain't earnin right, Like, 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.200 they're only paid for the time that they're actually moving 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.080 down the highway, not to like sit around resting, right, 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.400 or not to do all the other things that are 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.480 an important, essential part of being a trucker but aren't compensated. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.240 So the result is that truck ers just want to 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:02.640 stay on the road as much as they can because 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.240 that's how they make a living. They're in pretty dire 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.760 economic straits to begin with, Like, it's not a mystery 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.880 why they why they end up doing these things. And 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.359 so the E L D is sort of scene is 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:12.960 like an answer to this, right, a way to sort 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.640 of police this behavior by making it ostensibly harder, although 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.279 not impossible, for truckers to tamper with the log books 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:20.560 that they used to keep. So they used to do 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.359 this using paper and pencil um and that is like 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.520 a really easy system to kind of falsify or make 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.479 it look like you're running legal when you're not. And 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.000 so the e L the sort of scene as an 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.479 answer to that. You know, I I always was a 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.680 big fan of the song Convoy and there's a line 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.240 of tearing up your swindle sheets, which I didn't really 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.640 you realize the origin of that term until I read 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.760 your book, and the swindle sheets was a nickname for 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.039 the old physical pieces of paper that the truckers used 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.039 to log their hours talk about like, you know, they 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.200 had all different ways I guess of sort of swindle 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:56.280 lying on these cards. How long was that push to 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.280 How long had that effort been in place to get 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.680 truckers to give up the physical pieces of paper in 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.520 favor of these e L D s. So ELD is 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.560 like first start popping up in you know, discussion around 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.440 regulation in the nineteen eighties, and there's a long history 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.800 of kind of how they eventually become mandatory. At first, 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.279 the government starts to do things like, well, you know, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.479 maybe we'll make these mandatory for people who have like 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.680 really bad safety records, right for some subset of the 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.360 industry that we kind of think of as habitual VIL violators. 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.640 Then there's a proposed mandate in the that goes nowhere 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.599 right there, legal challenges. It's kind of like a long 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.360 and rocky road to get to the e L demandate 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.039 that we eventually end up with in SEV. But we 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.479 do eventually get there, right And you know, a lot 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.200 of the kind of the research that's in for my 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.200 book is trying to understand that transition looking at the 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:43.960 arguments that get made on either side of the e 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.760 L DE mandate. You know, from the nineteen eighties and 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.560 even before right, there's some predecessor technologies to that that 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.040 you know, I think set the stage for this up 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.440 to you know, post mandate, looking at what the effects 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.960 have been on the industry. So we definitely want to 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.560 dive into those various arguments. But before we do, can 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.559 you talk little bit about the technology that goes into 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.640 e L d s Because my understanding is. They sort 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.080 of range from pretty basic models to more sophisticated things 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.360 that actually, you know, can measure your brain waves to 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.640 see how awake you are or how much attention you're 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.560 paying to the road. So talk to us about the 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.880 variety of e l d s that we have right now. Yeah, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.240 this is really crucial. So the e l D itself 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.200 captures some important data, but like, as you say, sometimes 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.560 maybe not that much, like a fairly minimal amount. Basically 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.920 where the truck is and how long it's been being driven, right, Like, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.560 those are basically the core requirements in the regulations. However, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.680 it's almost as though the government told everybody, like you 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.040 have to buy a phone that makes phone calls or something, right, 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.320 like you can. It's very hard to find a phone 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:46.800 that only makes phone calls. Right. If you're going to 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:48.840 buy a phone that makes phone calls, you're also going 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.040 to buy a phone that takes photos and connects to 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.320 the internet and all this other stuff. Right, Because the 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.120 tech tends to like bundle these things together, and the 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:57.840 same thing happens in e l d s. So e 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.800 l d s are actually more commonly like a module 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.960 in what's sometimes called the fleet management system or FMS. 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.160 People sometimes call them like a qual calm because qual 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.040 Calm used to be like have a big market share 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.840 in this area. They're all kinds of names for him. 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.200 But now what people think of is the E L D. Actually, 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.480 it's kind of like, you know, it's almost like naming 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:16.960 the part for the whole, Like it sort of stands 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.200 in for this much broader range of data collection technologies. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.760 And as you point out, Tracy, those can include things. 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.200 You know, it commonly includes stuff like two way messaging 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.720 or you know, alerting a back office about your fuel 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.439 use or how hard you're breaking or how fast you're going, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.720 or you know, whether you're changing lanes without signaling, like 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.400 all kinds of like pretty fine grain driving behavior data, 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.760 which is just like very different from what trucking work 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.560 has look like for a long time. Right, Like, if 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.440 you ask folks why they get into trucking, many of 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.280 them say explicitly because they don't want that, right, they 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.880 don't want someone looking over their shoulder kind of measuring 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.280 how they do their work. And you know, some of 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.400 the stuff that's coming up on the horizon more recently 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:58.600 includes the types of stuff you allude to, right, things 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.200 like driver facing cameras have become much more common. Sometimes 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.160 those are augmented by artificial intelligence that will do things 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.160 like try to assess how fatigued a driver is, and 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.520 they might do that by doing things like measuring, um, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.800 whether the dry driver's eyelids are fluttering, you know, as 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:16.120 you know, like when you start to fall asleep, you're 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.720 lets start to flutter your head nods. They can measure 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.000 those kinds of things, and like you know, infer that 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.800 the driver is tired. UM. Some of them, you know, 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.440 they are wearable devices that sometimes get sort of integrated 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.840 into these systems or use kind of um in a 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.360 complimentary way to these systems that do things like you 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.120 said that measure a driver's brain waves, measure a driver's 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.240 heart rate, you know, collecting these other kind of biometric 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.000 signals to alert the back office or to alert you know, 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.679 the driver's safety manager whoever kind of what state they're in. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.480 So technically the law just require something the bare minimum 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.480 of like okay, something track the truck, the hours on 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.520 the road, etcetera. That needed an electronic version of the 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.400 log book. But it's like the trojan Trojan horse atone, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.880 like once you get that electronic device in the truck itself, 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.600 then why not add all these other things. Where is 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.720 the impulse coming from to add these other features onto 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.920 the field? Is it from the sort of like yeah, 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.360 who who's benefiting from this and who's making the decision? Yeah, 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.360 we want to stick a camera in the face of 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.000 the trucker and see their face at all time and 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:24.920 start counting, uh, you know, eyelids opening and closing. Yeah, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.040 I think that's exactly right. It's like a scaffold, or 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:28.839 it's like a you know, a Christmas tree, and once 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.080 you have the Christmas tree, you can just pay more 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.280 ornaments on the Christmas tree because you got the Christmas tree. Now. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.120 So what has happened is that, yes, the government has 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.600 you know, started to say like, we need to collect 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.000 a certain sort of information digitally, and then a lot 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.160 of the impetus for more data collection comes not necessarily 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.800 from the government per se, but from trekking companies. Right 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.760 because those workplace analytics, as you alluded to right in 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.160 the setup to the conversation, workplaces like across all kinds 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.840 of industries and all kinds of professions are increasingly interested 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.640 in using software, sensors or other technologies that are cheaper 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.120 and easy to come by to measure stuff about what 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.600 their workers are doing. And so in some sense, truck 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.800 like trucking companies are doing what all kinds of employers 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.760 are doing, which is measuring more information about what their 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.319 workers are doing on It Actually doesn't end there though, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.240 right Like on top of that, there are third parties 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.520 that become very interested in this data too, right, So 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.160 insurance companies become interested in it. Um companies that sell 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.160 like parking space reservations to truckers other stuff like that, like, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.720 they become interested in it. So the data becomes very 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.800 valuable to many different parties. It's just not valuable to 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.600 the trucker, right The trucker is kind of isolated against 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.720 all these parties that are interested in gathering the stata 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:48.880 about what he's doing. Can you talk a little bit 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.400 more about the insurance angle, because this is sort of 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.559 a a recent theme for us, this idea of insurers 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.120 sort of incentivizing different types of behavior collecting more granular 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.200 data in order to do that. Does the installation of 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.560 y l d s does that actually you know, reduce 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.720 insurance rates for instance, for truck drivers or the truck 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:15.320 driving companies yeah. So in what I have seen, um, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.480 it does or it can, and that some insurers insure, 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.200 as I think at this point, are mostly just interested 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.079 in getting the data rather than like really doing much 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.240 with it beyond just like getting the data and integrating 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.720 it into their modeling. So what I've seen is is 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.679 insurance companies offering what they sometimes call like a plug 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.840 in discount. This is not so different from like what 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.600 Progressive does with commercial or with passenger vehicles, right where 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.760 you get some discount on your premia for just installing 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.440 the thing or like just giving data access. I haven't 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.920 yet seen that it's actually had a measurable impact on 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.079 like actual rates within the industry, but you can imagine 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.040 right like this is this is the goal, right is 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.880 to do something like that. So, I mean, we have 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.520 had this mandate in effect for a few years now. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.360 Is there evident stead is making the road safer? No, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.800 there's not. There's not evidence that there's making the read safe. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.720 Thank you for that set up. Um No. So what 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.600 we have seen is that in the few years after 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.520 the e l D mandate took effect, traffic like or 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.839 truck crash fatalities went up. So they hit a thirty 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.640 year high the year after the mandate. UM crash rates 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.920 haven't gone down in some some segments of the industry, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.840 they've gone up. This is not based on my analysis. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.720 This is based on like quantitative analysis by some business 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.000 school professors that I talked about in the book. UM. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.640 But yeah, like if the goal is safety, right, like, 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.320 there is no demonstration that even on its own terms, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.240 the e l D is succeeding in making the road safer. 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:41.640 And if you think about why that is, there are 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.000 a couple of reasons that maybe happening. So one of 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.760 them that's like really intuitive is if you tell people, like, hey, 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.000 you know, you need to get from point A to 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.800 point B in eleven hours, like about roughly, Like let 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.640 me try to get home for Christmas in eleven hours, 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.240 Like I will do that. But if it's eleven hours 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.480 and five minutes or if it's twelve hours, like, it's 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.280 not the end of the world. And if I need 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.200 to stop and get a cup of coffee, or if 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.040 I need to like pull over and see if my 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.679 tire looks weird or something like, I can do those things, right, 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.800 I'm not going to like drive like about at a 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.040 hell to do it because I know that that flexibility 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.640 is sort of built into the system. If I tell 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.400 somebody like you have exactly eleven hours and you have 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.880 no more because I'm like I'm tracking this, like I'm 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.800 monitoring you, people will drive very differently, right, And that's 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.000 very intuitive. So what we have seen is that like 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.400 rates of speeding and reckless driving have gone up because 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.960 people feel this extra rigidity in the rules and so, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.720 like not shockingly, they compensate for this lost productivity by 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.560 trying to make up for that in the way that 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.960 they drive. So that's like one clear mechanism. Another thing 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.080 that like we don't have as clear up data on this, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.760 but clearly seems to be happening based on my conversations 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.920 with drivers. You know, trucking is kind of an aging 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.480 workforce anyway, like the median trucker ages I think in 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.640 the late forties, and a lot of folks if you 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.480 talk to them, you know, like they are not interested 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.359 in this, right, Veteran drivers who have been driving professionally 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.120 for me be decades, millions of miles without accidents. You 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.320 tell them like, guess what, guess what we're putting in 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.640 the truck now, Like they're not going to stick around 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.120 for that. Trucking has this very high turnover rate anyway, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.160 people turn in and out of the industry all the time, 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.280 And like, those are the drivers that are the safest. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.080 You want those drivers who are the most resistant in 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.640 many ways to this kind of oversight. That's the guy 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.000 you want to be next to on the road. You 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:22.680 don't want to be next to the eighteen year old 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.640 who just got their CDL who like maybe it doesn't 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.320 know any different, right, like, never grew up trucking any 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.000 other way, It's hard to find a blue collar job 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.400 that doesn't involve a lot of oversight and managerial surveillance. 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.320 So those are the folks that will stomach this kind 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.640 of thing, but they're not the safest drivers. Um. Actually, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.720 this reminds me. I want to ask you. You know 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.600 you studied this issue. I think when we spoke to 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.520 Gored he mentioned a tenure study or something like that. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.920 I'm not sure if that time frame is entirely accurate, 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.720 but talk to us about how you actually went about 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.600 gathering data and anecdotes for your work. Yeah, so it 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.120 has been cord is right. It has taken me a 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.080 very long time to process the study but that's been good. 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.120 Like I've spent like a quarter of my life thinking 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.840 about trucking at this point, which you know, life comes 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.120 at a best. But um, I started the study inn 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.000 I was a grad student. I was studying sociology um 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:15.640 and I was a lawyer before that, so I was 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.000 really interested in kind of thinking about law and how 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.040 does it how does it function on the ground, and 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:22.800 how do people respond to it? And especially I was 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.320 really interested in kind of wine technology and what happens 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.840 when we like surveil people, what happens when we collect 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.280 a bunch of information about what people are doing to 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.040 kind of assess whether they're breaking the rules. And I 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:35.880 was like sort of looking around for like where's a 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.600 place where I can see this transition in action, Like 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.520 I can really see that happening on the ground, so 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.120 I can get a good sense for like how that 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:44.960 unfolds or how it changes the way people relate to 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.720 one another. And just by chance, it was like completely 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.920 a fluke. I heard a story on the radio about 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.560 trucking and how like truckers were upset because they were 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.840 dealing with this. But this was again twenty eleven, so 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.000 the e l Demandate was being discussed, although it wasn't 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.240 effective for several years after that, But about this mandate, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.080 and I thought like, well, that's maybe it. And I 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.679 didn't know any truckers, like I have no truck truckers 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.040 in my family, but I went that day to a 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.760 truck stop just to see, like, what is it like 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.919 to talk to a truck driver? Like is it easy? 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.560 Will they talk to me? And I was like instantaneously hooked. 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.520 I found that truckers were like, they had such interesting stories, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.800 they were so forthcoming, they were incredibly generous, you know, 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.520 in talking about the stuff that I admit I had 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.439 never thought about. Right, it sounds like the origins of 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.399 of odd lots interest in trucking as well. Yeah, so 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:39.160 we keep doing trucking episodes. Obviously it's a fascinating, fascinating, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.200 fascinating angle. You know what you mentioned, you know, the 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.119 legal background, and this brings up something a point that 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.600 I thought was really interesting in your book, which is 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.120 that like society kind of depends on people being able 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.400 to break the law a little bit, that you can't 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:58.160 actually run a society on everywhere everyone always strictly hewing 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.159 to the law and being punished if they don't you 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:01.960 explain that a little bit more, because I think that's 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:03.560 key when you talk about you know what the E 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.320 L D. You can't be ten minutes later, you can't 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.960 drive an extra ten minutes. But what is this concept 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.359 of like we need a little bit of loose areas? Yeah, no, 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.040 I think this is exactly right. Right. It's very easy 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.080 and intuitive to say, like, well, if we have a law, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.080 people should follow the law, and like therefore, you know, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.560 if we assume that the law is legitimate or has 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.720 been reached in like a democratic way or whatever, like 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.480 people should just follow it. But like that doesn't really 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.600 hold up too much scrutiny, right, And there's tons of 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.080 places where we see that actually, like social life would 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.679 kind of fall apart if people actually followed laws to 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.879 the letter. Um, you know, like one of the examples 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.560 days in the book is just like speeding, right, Like 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.000 I think if you were told that you were if 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.720 you got a ticket for driving sixty six and a 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.399 sixty five, not as a trucker but just as like 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.359 a regular car driver, people like we would be like, what, 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.560 that's not the law, and like it is technically, but 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:57.000 like nobody really expects that that's the law. Another thing 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:58.480 I talked about in the book that kind of hits 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.320 this home is um in in like labor actions and 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:05.040 you know collective action, like a pretty common worker strategy 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.080 is the work to rule labor action. I don't know 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.040