1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron manky Well. Starting about in the 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: the ninety one UM actually starting the ninety seven a century, 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: we began here about the abduction the auction corona started 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: out by slowly We're basic Arney and Betty Hill sixty 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: one and then in Tonio b s Rows cases Brazilways 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: having the seven weeks and there about that sis Well. 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about the cases that we resually 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: were where what was that? They were a very home 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: party Cowey, They were rare, they were odd, they were strange. 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: At the same time the people who were having the 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: experiences seemed to be having We couldn't really tell whether 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: there was any thing over What was it about Farney 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and Betty Hill, you know that caused and abductions? Who 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: happened to them? Well, the way we looked at it 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: now days was there was only one reason they were 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: in the wrong place at the wrong him. I went 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: else one of the reasons could they're possibly be? And 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: time only that. But Barney and Betty he said things 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: that let us two things. And the experiments model, as 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: to say, and they had skins Treby tame the body 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: there then made a sass amount of here. They asked 23 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: Party why his steeds came out? Asked Betty why Party 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: seeking out of hers, didn't they They put a merely 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: into Betty's Mabel and said they were doing pregnancy test. Well, 26 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: all of this was the model for more experiments audience. 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: This was a phasic situation where you have a model, 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: there's one. Yeah. The publication of John Fuller's A Journey 29 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: Interrupted began a decades long series of ever more incredible 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: old tales of alien abduction. Using the Hill story as 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: a foundation, Each successive abduction account had to be more 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: extraordinary than the last. Public interest in alien abduction reached 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: its height in the nine nineties, partly because of the 34 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: hit TV show The X Files, which had an ongoing 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: abduction subplot. Another reason was the success of three men 36 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: who pushed the alien abduction narrative to its limit in 37 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: a number of best selling books I'm Toby Ball and 38 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: This Is Strange Arrivals Episode nine, The Troika. In the 39 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: twenty years following the Hill experience, there was a clear 40 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: understanding of the type of situation in which a person 41 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: could be abducted. They would be driving in lonely isolated 42 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: places at night, a UFO would appear and the abduction 43 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: would follow. But this conception changed and the study of 44 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: abductions became something entirely different. UFO researcher Robert Schaeffer, starting 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: with Bud Hopkins in the eighties, you didn't have to 46 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: go anywhere to be abducted by aliens. Aliens would come 47 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: right into your bedroom and grab you, drag you up 48 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: to the saucer, and then bring you back whenever they 49 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: were done with you. You didn't have to drive out 50 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: somewhere late at night and see a lightning us at 51 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: You're just sitting there, minding your own business, and then 52 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the aliens come the Once you've 53 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: accept that this could happen, you've opened the door to 54 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: every kind of fantasy and imagination possible. Bud Hopkins was 55 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: a well known abstract expressionist artist who became a leading 56 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: researcher into the alien abduction phenomen man On he published 57 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: his first book on the subject, Missing Time, a documented 58 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: study of UFO abductions. Hopkins made the conceptual leap that 59 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: abductions could happen any time, in anywhere. An associate professor 60 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: of history at Temple University named David Jacobs seized upon 61 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: this idea and began his own research. We heard him 62 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: giving a lecture at the opening of this episode. David 63 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: Jacobs got into the UFO business quite a bit earlier. 64 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: He wrote The History of UFO Belief in the United 65 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: States back in the seventies. He state at this, and 66 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: then he too picked up the idea from Hopkins and 67 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: whoever else that these types of bedroom abductions were taking place. 68 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: After his nine book, The UFO Controversy in America, Jacobs 69 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: didn't publish again for seventeen years. His next book, The Threat, 70 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: Revealing the Secret Alien Agenda, was specifically about abductions and 71 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: featured a foreword by the third major figure in this 72 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: era of abduction research, one who brought with him impeccable 73 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: academic credentials. Done back was a whole was very important guy, 74 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: and he was not just a PhD. It was a 75 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: professor of psychiatry at the Harvard Medical School. Mac was very, 76 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: very talented, very prominent guy. But somehow he got bit 77 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: by this book too and decided it was real. So 78 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: these three guys pop against Jacobs and Mac sometimes referred 79 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: to them, those Ditroitka. The Troika was a type of 80 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: temporary government that occurred four times in the history of 81 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, where three leaders sat atop the government 82 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: without any of them able to exert power alone. These 83 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: guys thought that they were very scientific, and I guess 84 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: it's of credentials and stuff like that. They kind of work. 85 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: In Hopkins published Intruders, which laid out the case that 86 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: humans were being abducted and used by aliens for genetic research. 87 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: In he met a Boston based documentary filmmaker named Carol 88 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: Rainey in they were married. I'm Carol Rainey and I 89 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: was married for ten years to Bud Hopkins, abstract expressionist 90 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: painter and UFO researcher, and I came from a background 91 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: uh spending twenty years making films for epidemiologists in the 92 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: Boston area. I don't come from a science background originally, 93 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: but in all of those years of working for epidemiologists 94 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: and later in New York City with the major metal 95 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: institutions like New York Presbyterian, I learned a lot about 96 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: how scientists think about phenomena in the natural world and 97 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: how they go about gaining real knowledge in the real 98 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: world from working with scientists, Carol found a very different 99 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: world surrounding Hopkins, who was doing UFO research but was 100 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: by training an artist. I married an artist, as did 101 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: his second wife, I'm sure, but by the time I 102 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: met him, he had pretty much given up on being 103 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: part of the art world in Manhattan, and almost his 104 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: entire life was really taken up with being this leader 105 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: in a movement called alien abduction. It was a very 106 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: overwhelming lifestyle. It was UFOs seven. Carol moved from boss 107 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: In down to New York In where Hopkins was the 108 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: center of gravity for a group of people who identified 109 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: themselves as abductees. So I got my own camera and 110 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: started shooting yet one more documentary, but this one would 111 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: be no strings attached, no federal funding, no state funding, 112 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: no city funding. Funded out of my back pocket. That 113 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: gave me a great deal of freedom. If Betty Hill 114 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: had talked to Bud Hopkins, she would have found that 115 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: the aliens that he believed were kidnapping and experimenting on 116 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: people were far different from the leader with whom she 117 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: carried on a pleasant and occasionally funny conversation. They didn't 118 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: resemble Quasga and jew hop either, Bud's work expanded the 119 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: original narrative, and he didn't stay relatively close to the 120 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: pattern for the Hill case Betty and Barney Hill. But 121 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,599 Speaker 1: what his writing added to it was that nobody was 122 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: safe anywhere, that aliens could enter your bedroom at night, 123 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: coming straight through the walls, coming through the windows. I mean, 124 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: his view of alien beings in the world was that 125 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: they were godlike, really ordinary physics did not prohibit them 126 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: from doing whatever they wanted to do to take advantage 127 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: of people's helplessness. And the abductees were used in Budd's 128 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: thoughts in the same way that Lee observed, you know, 129 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: wolves in the wild, and we experimented on them to 130 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: some degree from afar. And that's what he felt the 131 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: aliens were doing to us. They might put tracking devices 132 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: in us, what's called old an implant these days. You know, 133 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: many of his people came up with those implants, partly 134 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: to add credence to Bud's narrative, and because that was 135 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: the story that was becoming increasingly popular in mainstream media 136 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: during the nineteen eighties and nineties. Figure out what that 137 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: little thing of race sums his nose as yet, No, 138 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 1: and I'm not losing any sleep over it good. I 139 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: bond was very believable. You know, one of the more 140 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: intelligent people I've ever met, But with this caveat, not 141 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: at all given to science or interest in science. He 142 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: knew almost nothing about psychology or psychiatry or recovered memories. 143 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: He didn't know except to mouth in a bit. He 144 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: didn't know anything about scientific protocols, were the scientific method 145 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: and how you use that to make sure that the 146 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: information you believe you're gaining in the world, that that 147 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: information is valid. As I became more and more part 148 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: of the U of a world, I became less and 149 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: less convinced that many of the people doing research, we're 150 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: doing it with enough valid understanding of science and manipulation 151 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: of testimony and leading witnesses. How did this gap in 152 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: knowledge play out in their research? After the break, strange 153 00:11:46,640 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: arrivals will return in a moment. Carol Rainey expresses concern 154 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: that Bud Hopkins and David Jacob's lack knowledge that should 155 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: have informed their work with hypnotically recovered memories. This is 156 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: especially concerning because we know that hypnosis subjects have an 157 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: increased vulnerability to suggestion. In Hopkins cases, the way in 158 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: which quote unquote, memories were created and manipulated. Is easy 159 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: to identify. Hopkins could be acting in good faith, but 160 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: his subjects testimony was tainted. First of all, Peter Robbins 161 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: would be there as his assistant and would read for 162 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: the letters. Is how things came in originally, and Peter 163 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: would read through them and he'd write abductee on the front, 164 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: or he'd write probable abductee on the front, and then 165 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: that person would be mailed a kit of information about 166 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: the abduction phenomena and then told in the kit to 167 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: avoid reading the literature in the field, so the new 168 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: possible abductive would be sent as kit of material. And 169 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: I think it varied sometimes, but it was information about, 170 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, the abduction phenomena. And also the people who 171 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: were calling Bud knew enough about the field to call 172 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: a top researcher in the field. They had also often 173 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: read one, two or three of his books previously, and 174 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: they had watched movies, they watched documentaries. He had been 175 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: in I mean, he was appearing on the Phil Donahue's show, 176 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: on the Oprah Winfrey Show, on Canadian talk shows. He 177 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: was all over. So by the time they show up 178 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: at hopkins house for a hypnosis session. They've already been 179 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: exposed to his work on alien abductions. When people would 180 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: first call and begin talking to him, he could go 181 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: on easily for an hour with each person over the phone, 182 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: and he would often tell them about the new cases 183 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: that he was working on. The queue that sends to 184 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: the person on the other end of the phone is 185 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: that if you want the attention of his television personality, 186 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: you might do well consciously or unconsciously to have your 187 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: own memories that were similar to the ones he was 188 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: interested in. And that is where the tailoring of tales began, 189 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: long before he even met the people. These people would 190 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: come to Bud in Carol's house to undergo regression hypnosis. 191 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: Bud would sometimes talk to the visitor, telling him or 192 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: her about some of his cases or things that he 193 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: was interested in, and then Bud would put them under hypnosis. 194 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: You don't have to lead anybody under hypnosis after that, 195 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: they already know which way to go. And that happened often, 196 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: and it's that pre hypnosis session. All those sessions, those 197 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: contacts is what people on the outside never knew about. 198 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: Here's Bud Hopkins conducting a hypnosis session with an alleged abductee. 199 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: This is from a recording of a conference where he 200 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: presented this tape as part of a lecture. Very see 201 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: what's you can seeing? What you're feeling? Long time ago? 202 00:15:47,840 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: Me table, father or something. It's around, it's around the world. 203 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: Them standing beside me. Mh, I'm here talking to me. 204 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: I don't I hear them. They're telling me, I'm all right, 205 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: m you can't do it? Fine? They yeah, I want something. 206 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. I don't know what you want. I've seen 207 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: you before. Okay, all right, all right, just tell me 208 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: very cool. What's happening, Kathy? You can do it? Finds 209 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: a long time ago. We're just remembering this. You what's happening? 210 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: It's this has happened to me before. Okay. H The 211 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 1: table is to moving my legs. That's right, that's right. 212 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: It's just the same. What's happened to your lig as 213 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned there arre youre apart. It's like having guyan man. 214 00:17:51,840 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: It's okay, it's the same. I've had this before. Ye 215 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm Cathy. I'm going to touch your shoulders me. I's 216 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: going to feel very calm, and when I count to three, 217 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: you feel the warmth in my hand one, two, three, 218 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: and now my hands, and you should live very safe, 219 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: much better, much better. Jacobs also prepped his subjects, and 220 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: his methods were often less subtle. Here he is giving 221 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: a lecture talking about the consistency of stories he's heard 222 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: during hypnotic regressions, but also letting slip a clue as 223 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: to why these stories might be so similar. They may 224 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: not know if they may be. It's not aware of 225 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: it at all, But we pretty much know. We know 226 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: the sequence of advances may happen the wround world. It 227 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: almost doesn't matter. In other words, we know when they say, 228 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: hey DC, we know the coming and they're not gonna 229 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: like the you know, and I have to prepare them. 230 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: And this uh about seven city of many compressions US 231 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: and we see a certain routine here. Obviously this is 232 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: a strange statement to be coming from a person supposedly 233 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: engaged in research. Again, he could have the best of intentions, 234 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: but as we have seen in earlier episodes, hypnosis subject 235 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: is particularly vulnerable to suggestion, and of course the way 236 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: they lead to witnesses is just pathetic. I think Jacobs 237 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: wanted the worst. People have pointed this out from going 238 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: over these transcripts and saying, you know, basically he's telling 239 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: her what to what he wants to hear. He's you know, 240 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,239 Speaker 1: he's telegraphing. It rouses there and she just tells him 241 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: what he wants to hear. In Carol Rainey wrote a 242 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: lengthy article titled Priests of High Strangeness to expose what 243 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: she felt like, we're unsigh scientific and unethical practices among Hopkins, Jacobs, 244 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: and mac When I wrote the article, many of the 245 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: old time UFO research was contacted me privately to thank 246 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: me for putting that out there. He Stan was one 247 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: of them, and they said, we knew there was something 248 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: off in this research that but and Jacobs were putting out, 249 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: but we didn't know what it was. We only knew 250 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: what he told us about how he researched cases. When 251 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: she refers to stand, she's talking about Stanton Friedman, who 252 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: we heard from earlier in this series, mainly about Marjorie 253 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: Fish and the Star Map. I didn't bring up Hopkins 254 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: in our interview, but when he was talking about the 255 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: qualifications of Dr. Benjamin Simon as a hypnotist, Friedman used 256 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: Hopkins as an example of someone who did not meet 257 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: the same standard. We're not talking about some amateur and look. 258 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: I like Bud Hopkins, so I knew him. I've been 259 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: in his home. Great guy, But Budd was an artist, 260 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: not a professional psychiatrist or psychologist or justst with training 261 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: and dealing with traumatic experiences, you get a fine job. 262 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: I'm not not conuted, but on any comparison of skills 263 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: brought to the problem, there's no question Dr Simon rules 264 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: the roost. The other method that Hopkins used with the 265 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: supposed abductees with support group meetings. Hopkins would host meetings 266 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: with a number of abductees and conduct a kind of 267 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: group therapy session revolving around their abduction experiences, but other 268 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: issues from their past as well. And what I began 269 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: to understand from attending those meetings is that if you 270 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: were knew to the field, you could pick up everything 271 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: you needed to know about being a standard abductee just 272 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: by going to those support meetings and by talking with 273 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: other abductees. They would lay out certain patterns and other 274 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: people would second that and they would say, oh, that 275 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: happened to me too, and Bud would guide the discussions. 276 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: I did call him on this in terms of support 277 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: group meanings. I said, why don't you use an a 278 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: a kind of model where there is no leader, where 279 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: the witnesses, the abductees themselves could guide the discussion instead 280 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: of you leading it. And my objection to his leading 281 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: the discussion was that he would tell people about brand 282 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: new cases and things he was most interested in pursuing. 283 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: Carol describes the participant as bright, sensitive, and artistically driven, 284 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: while there were occasionally more eccentric people on the margins. 285 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: She says of the main group that she did not 286 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: think they were crazy, not once. They were people to 287 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: whom something was happening, and that fascinated me, as still 288 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: should fascinate researchers if it's you know, psychosmatic, if the 289 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: narrative is being developed entirely inside individuals. And then they 290 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: meet in some sort of a place like a support group, 291 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: and they began to share things they've picked up from 292 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: television series which were everywhere, or from movies, from reading 293 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: buds books. They came with a hell of a lot 294 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: of knowledge about what other people were saying about their experiences. 295 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: They were not blank slates. They came in knowing the material. 296 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: And when you're working with that psychologically, research shows there's 297 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: a great deal of spread of terms and means and 298 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: thoughts and patterns between the researcher himself and the people 299 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: who have come to him for help, and between each other. 300 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: They would pass ideas back and forth. So to me, 301 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: it was fairly easy to see how without really careful, 302 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: careful protocols, and without being peer reviewed, such a researcher 303 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: intentionally or totally unintentionally could be creating the story of 304 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: what had happened to all of these people. University of California, 305 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: Irvine professor Elizabeth Loftis. We heard from her earlier in 306 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: the series. One of my friend colleagues once said, this 307 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: group therapy it's a little like poker, where you say, 308 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to match your memory and raise you one 309 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: with my even more lurid and bizarre and upsetting memory. 310 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: And that's a way in which this group therapy situation 311 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: helps to create an environment where people are trying to 312 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: come up with ever more interesting and exotic and dramatic 313 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: stories because that's what will get attention. And in this case, 314 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: what would get Hopkins attention would be stories that would 315 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: indicate abduction. What Bud called evidence would be people sending 316 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: him snapshots of mark on their body, whether it was 317 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: a scar or bruise or whatever. Here's Hopkins from the 318 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: same lecture as before, or this time showing images of 319 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: these physical marks. Now very quickly some of the scars. 320 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: These are very characteristic. And this is the scoop mark 321 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: rather than the straight line cut. This is what we 322 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: have on the front of Cathy Davis leg I'll show 323 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: you might need a tiny bit of focus on this. 324 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: Now this uh looks as if the tiny little scoop 325 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: element came in there and took took away flesh. We 326 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: don't know what this is for, except that obviously would 327 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: give you a good chance of knowing a lot about 328 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: that individual's makeup if you had the question the mark is. 329 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to say, and from memory, I would say 330 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: it's probably about three eighths of an inch law Carol 331 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: and John mac realized that as much as they wanted 332 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: to discover physical evidence of these abductions, these photos fell 333 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: short of that mark. John knew that those would not 334 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: be taken well as evidence. You know, it's not something 335 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: you gather first person. There's no guard on the chain 336 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: of custody, none of that. We often talk about the 337 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: echo chamber in the context of politics, where if everyone 338 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: you here expresses the same opinions, you begin to uncritically 339 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: accept them. But it happens outside politics as well, and 340 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: something like this occurred in the small, intense abduction community, 341 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: where the incredible might barely provoke a raised eyebrow. At 342 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: some point. I remember thinking when I was shooting with Bud. 343 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: We were on Cape Cod and a man I didn't 344 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: know had called in and was talking to him, And 345 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: I walked through the room and I heard Bud say, 346 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: did they come through the wall this time? Too? And 347 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: when I thought about it a few minutes later, I thought, 348 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: I didn't even break a sweat. I didn't even jump 349 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: when he said that. I just up did That's how 350 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: it happens. And when that happens to you, you know 351 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: you need to put your guard up even more. This 352 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: effect could be especially strong on the people at the 353 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: center of the work, Hopkins and Jacobs, whose observations and 354 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: theories were mutually confirming that Jacobs would rent a house 355 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: on the Keep, a few houses down from our house 356 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: in wealth Lee, and over dinner one night, Dave Jacobs 357 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: said to Bud, Bud, you and I are the only 358 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: two people on the planet who really know what's going 359 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: on with the alias. I kind of did a double take, 360 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: and I said, the only two people on the planet, 361 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Isn't it kind of a dangerous way to think about 362 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: something that you don't really know for sure? These dangers 363 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: became realized as Hopkins, Jacobs, and Max rees Church led 364 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: to theories of escalating strangeness. They seem to need genetic 365 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: material that they're taking sperm over, and we think we 366 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: are seeing this twenty four hours a day next to 367 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: seven days a week. But we see them as well 368 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: with twenty people, fifty people, hundreds of people, five hundred 369 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: tables in a room with people on them, you assembly 370 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: line fashion. We know they're doing these reproductive experiments in 371 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: attempt at hybridization and so forth. Then Hopkins found the 372 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: perfect case that ultimately proved the step too far next 373 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: time on Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is a production of 374 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. 375 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: This episode was written and hosted by Toby Bowl and 376 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with executive producers 377 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, Matt Frederick and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was 378 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: portrayed by Gina Rickike Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. 379 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the Miln's Special Collections and Archives at 380 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y C 381 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: h A M. In Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and David O'Leary, 382 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: the executive producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project 383 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: blue Book. Learn more about the show over at Grimm 384 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: and mile dot com. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 385 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 386 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.