WEBVTT - Sharing Truth with Jen Hatmaker EP 425 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.840 Hi, I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:14.440 and speaker. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.560 And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.040 writer and course creator. We are two working parents who 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.000 love our careers and our families. 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.360 Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.360 how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.360 from figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.200 Term career goals. 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:39.320 We want you to get the most out of life. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.360 Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.760 This episode is airing in late September of twenty twenty five. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.760 We're excited to welcome Jen Hatmaker back to the show. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.200 Jen is the author of a brand new memoir called 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.640 a Wake, which is about the end of her twenty 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.640 six year marriage and the aftermath of that. So Jen 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.080 was actually on the show back in April of twenty twenty, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:05.920 which I distinctly remember because it was one of those 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.120 pandemic like early pandemic interviews when I was doing it, 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.200 because if it aired in April, we were probably recording 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.520 in either early April or March or so everyone was 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.360 still sort of figuring out what on earth was going on. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.959 And I remember talking to her then, but. 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.560 I was pondering, like, do you have memories of April 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.880 twenty twenty, Sarah, how was like that you were still 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:28.240 holding on too from. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:29.280 That part of your life. 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:30.360 They weren't positive. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.480 I mean, yeah, like I had a two and a 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.720 half year old, I had a kindergartener who was like 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.919 in virtual school, and it was like the failest failed 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:43.080 that ever failed, Like it just. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:43.919 Did not work. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.840 And then the only kid that was sort of learning 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.600 anything was maybe Namel in virtual second grade. But it 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.720 was still like highly depressing, and I had to work, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:54.760 like so I would be on call in person. But 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.520 then otherwise I think we were entirely tallehealth, thinking it 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.400 was going to be like just a few weeks. So 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.520 I sitting upstairs like trying to see patients from my 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.520 office and I hate it. I still hate telehealth, like 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.280 I just really, I mean, for a quick follow up, 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.000 it's great, but for like a new patient evaluation or 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.880 talking about something serious, it's not ideal. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.600 And then the kids were like loud and it was 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:16.200 not a fun time. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.160 Plus Josh and I were like no, everyone was very 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:19.639 scared of the virus at that point, and Josh and 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:21.360 I were kind of like, well, we're getting it because 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.400 we're going to work and we have to and like 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.639 they're not even like enough mass to go around, and 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:28.640 who was wild. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.400 At times, and I don't really remember it fondly. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.120 My only happy memory from that period was going on 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.959 walks where Genevieve would like hug trees. So I think 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.359 that's what my I've golden whitewashed it to distilled it to. 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.680 That, but she was tree hugging, literal tree hugging. Yeah, no, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.799 I mean there wasn't much else to do. I guess 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:47.600 that was the little adventure for the day, to go 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.600 out and hug totally. Yeah, I was thinking about that too. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.200 I mean, Henry was an infant during that time and 0:02:54.360 --> 0:03:00.640 he basically wouldn't sleep except on somebody, so either me 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.520 or Michael or one of our babysitters would have to 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.800 like hold him and trot him around. And then he 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.040 at some point decided to stop taking a bottle at all, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:13.160 because why would he. 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:14.480 I was there, I was clearly there. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.640 I wasn't going anywhere, so it's a little hard to 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.760 convince him that there was another option. And yeah, I mean, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.120 just like everyone wearing masks during sort of crucial times 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.960 in other children's social emotional development that you can't read 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.400 social cues that take a long time to sort. 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.160 Of deal with the fallout of all that. I don't know. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.720 Oh, I still think that's why Genevieve's in speech today 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.920 yasing those key years with her teacher. I mean, we 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.400 had to do it at the time, but yeah, I 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.160 actually can't read blog posts from that time. Like I 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:48.920 if I accidentally like linked to one, I'm like, oh, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:49.760 I closed it. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:51.560 It's yeah, it's just it's a lot. 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.920 Yeah, well Jen was at the time when we talked, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.840 she didn't actually have a whole lot of idea what 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.800 was about to happen. But as people who read her 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.080 memoir will find out, in July of twenty twenty one, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.160 middle of the night, two thirty am, she wakes up 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.080 to hear her husband of twenty six years dictating a 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.040 text to his girlfriend. If you could imagine, She mentions 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:16.719 in the book that it was weird that during the 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.320 pandemic he was lots of other places which nobody was 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.240 going anywhere during the pandemic, but suddenly he found places 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:24.840 to be a sort of pondering that it would have 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.800 been very challenging to pull off that during the pandemic. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.239 Going where are you going? Where are you going? Doesn't 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:32.600 make sense? 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.479 But one thing I appreciated her memoir is it's not 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.960 just like my ex is a terrible person. I think 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.800 she delves deep into various problems that she refused to 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.240 see before then, and so I appreciate when things are 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.320 not entirely black and white, even in situations where it might. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:53.839 Appear that they are. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.279 So. In this interview, we discuss a week and Jim's 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.760 career evolution from sort of the Christian mommy blogger's sphere 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:02.760 to what she's doing now. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:04.160 So we're excited to have her back. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.360 So Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Jen Hatmaker 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.200 back to the show, first time since twenty twenty. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.440 So, Jen, thank you so much for joining us. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:15.960 I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.640 me again again. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.359 Yeah, well, why don't. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.800 You tell our listeners really quickly for those who weren't 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:24.800 listening in twenty twenty, a little bit about yourself. 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:29.040 Well, let's see, what's the snapshot of my life. I 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.839 live in Austin, Texas. I've been here for a long time. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:38.680 I've got five kids. They're all like young adultish, we're 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.919 nineteen to twenty seven, and I've been a single parent 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.560 now for five years. So that was not anything I 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.839 ever expected. But that's where I'm at now. That's a 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.599 change since the last time we spoke. And I'm a writer. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.080 I've written a lot of books. The first hout whole 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.599 half of them were absolutely terrible, and I tell people 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.279 all the time, I'm like, if you read one of 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.400 my first five books, I will never speak to you 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.320 again ever. And so, and I have a podcast it's 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.919 called for the Love and I love it. And I 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.200 just have a great life on my best friend I 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.839 live on the same street and one over for my 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.840 best friends in the world. My whole family lives here, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.000 and also my parents and all my siblings and my 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:28.080 adult kids minus my marine. So I'm just in a 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.560 really happy moment in my life for sure. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:31.920 Which is wonderful. 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.160 Which is an interesting to be talking about this memoir, 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.279 of course, when you're in this wonderful place, because the 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.159 memoir Awake is about the end and aftermath of your 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.960 twenty six year marriage. I mean, did you ever imagine, 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.160 like in the mess and Moxie era that this would 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.920 be a book that would be on the shelf next 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:50.640 to all those. 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.640 I mean, not in the outer most reaches of my imagination, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.960 like it would have been the opposite. I would have 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.320 had a fairly like violet reason response to the suggestion 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.120 that I might one day write a divorce memoir. I mean, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.920 come on, we were married for twenty six years, and 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.040 we were we had done like a whole we'd done 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.480 the thing, we'd done the like Christian do the right 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:23.360 template thing. We got married really young in Baptist Bible College, 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.120 and I was a nineteen year old bride, if you 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.960 can even imagine something so absurd and insane, and married 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.640 for twenty six years. He was a pastor, and we 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.600 started a church here. And so no, no, under no 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:44.800 circumstances did I ever foresee or even moderately suspect that 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.240 this was going to be my story. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.600 Yeah, which is I mean, life comes out all of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.440 us hard, right, I mean, this is just the truth 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.960 life happens. But one thing I really appreciated about this 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.600 memoir is it wasn't. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.000 Just like this guy is terrible. 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.400 It would be very tempting to write a memoir you 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:05.440 have a public platform and be like, my ex is 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.200 a horrible person. But you talk a lot about the 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.920 challenges of the fact that you did get married so young. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.840 Yeah, and what happens with that? I mean, what are 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:15.840 the issues inherent? 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:17.760 I mean, you guys were together for twenty six years, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.160 but when you get together at age nineteen, I mean, 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:23.520 what are the challenges that come with that? 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.040 Oh? My god, I have a nineteen year old right 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.880 this second. My youngest kid is nineteen. If she came 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.600 home today and said she was engaged, I would run 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.679 her over with my car. She is a baby. She 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.120 doesn't know anything about anything, and neither did I, but 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.160 I thought I did not. Only is there just the 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:49.000 obvious immaturity and undeveloped nature of being an actual teenager. 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.640 I got married halfway through my sophomore year of college. 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:57.880 So we were just simply half baked. Like, put two 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.680 people together in that age range and expect them to 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:09.720 understand conflict resolution, to understand attachment styles, to know how 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:16.440 to manage their money like just a banana system. And 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:21.440 then there was kind of the bigger story around, which 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:28.920 was one of sort of religious dogma, and so there 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.040 was a real high premium placed on like sexual purity 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:39.600 in our subculture, and so the only credible way through 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.760 that conundrum was to get married, because that's the only 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.280 place sex belonged back then, as we were told, was 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.760 inside marriage. But everything after that was just absolutely like 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:54.400 shame based and like fear based. And I know exactly 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.200 how that worked. And so that was a driver into 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:04.680 like a covenant that we were simply unprepared to make. 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.600 Even if you can even just think of, like who 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.840 you might have chosen as a life partner when you 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.280 were eighteen years old, can you even think of that, 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:19.040 like you would just grow up and choose differently when 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.760 you were a full blown adult. And so I have 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.080 a lot of compassion actually for both of us, not 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.920 just me. I have compassion for him too. It's taken 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.720 me a long time to get there. And that is 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.840 not an excuse. I'm not saying, oh, well, now I 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.160 feel great about all his choices. That's not what I mean. 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.480 But we were both handed a story at a really 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.120 young age, and we played those roles to the best 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.920 of our ability. Yeah, and I'm sorry for what that 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.280 subculture actually stole from both of us. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.240 Absolutely, We're going to take a quick ad break and 0:10:51.240 --> 0:11:06.080 then I'll be back with more from Jen Hatmaker. So 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.000 I'm talking now with Jen Hatmaker here on Best of 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.280 Both Worlds. And when we talked in twenty twenty and April, 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.520 it was the middle of the pandemic, and all the 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.000 events that started this book happen shortly after that in 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.400 the summer I believe of twenty twenty. But I follow 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.160 you online and one of the things that's fascinating to 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.959 me with people who are very online, who have a 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:33.920 public presence, public following, and things life happens, things go bad, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.800 trying to figure out how you are going to address 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.560 that that you're used to sharing so much about life, 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.600 I mean, like stories of your kid peeing in target 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.280 or something like that, and then all of a sudden, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.560 the biggest thing that's on your brain is something that 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.760 is so hard to write about. So maybe you could 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:53.760 talk us through how that went, like how you were 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.599 figuring out what to share, like as your life and 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.120 your family is in crisis, and how you thought that 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.480 would go, and then how it did wind up going. 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.800 That's so fuzzy, like that whole season is just bogged 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.920 down in this fog of grief in my memory because 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.160 First of all, the end of my marriage was a 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.000 shock and a trauma. It wasn't like we had been 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:21.240 having conversations like privately and we had finally just emerged 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.439 with this decision we had made. It wasn't like that. 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.680 It was like the type of ending where you go 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.360 to bed with one kind of life and you wake 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.880 up the next day with a completely different life. That 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:37.240 was how it was. And so the level of shock 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.960 and betrayal and grief and suffering that we were experiencing 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:47.600 in the family was just unprecedented for us. And then 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.040 on top of that, I had to figure out how 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:56.760 to manage a pretty public facing career, one for which 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.360 at least a part of what I have talked about 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.520 for fifteen or twenty years in front of people, among 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.280 other things, is marriage and family. So I mean this 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.439 is it felt not like just such a catastrophic personal loss, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.440 but also like a loss of I wondered if it 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:19.439 would be a loss of credibility, whatever sort of confidence 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:25.120 I had ever inspired in my community. I had no idea, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.400 to be honest, but at the beginning it was all 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:34.319 just so very traumatic. I just went silent. I just 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.280 didn't do anything. I just went a wall. I don't 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.000 have the capacity to just pretend. I just don't have it. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.680 Like I did not have the ability to come online 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.680 and just say something about something over here while my 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.760 life was in tatters. I don't That's not my way. 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.640 So I just said nothing, and of course that did 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.640 not go unnoticed. A big portion of my career is 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.400 locate online, and that's where we gather, and that's where 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.880 I write, and that's where whatever, and so I eventually 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.200 just had to put a placeholder out there and just 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:14.000 say we're in it, like we're in it, just I 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:15.480 don't know what to say about it, but just we're 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.080 in it. Like if you can spare a kind thought 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.040 toward our family, send it. And that just sort of 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.440 held the tide at bay for a while until a journalist, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:30.600 I say journalists loosely, but like a person who runs 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:36.480 a website dedicated to kind of like Christian Gotchas if 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:41.040 you will, found our online filing and we had tried 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.560 to keep that as private as we could with initials, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.480 and it didn't matter. She found it and wrote a 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.840 whole thing exposing our divorce. So we hadn't even told 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.480 all of our family yet, and it was pretty devastating, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.920 So just kind of on the spot. It was trending, 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.040 and it was interesting because her particular site was sort 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:07.240 of a lightning rod for like Christian fundamentalists, if you will, 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:12.960 like the gatekeepers, the type who are looking like preparing 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.880 to catch anybody in any trap. And so the response 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.600 was overwhelmingly to blame me for it? What did she do? 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.960 We knew this was going to happen, We knew this 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.600 was her problem, she says, what she deserves. My husband, 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.320 by the way, omitted from the reckoning, ironically, when all 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.040 of it was his doing. And so that was a 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.840 really chaotic season. But I will say, as I landed, 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.120 sorry for such a long answer, what happened in my 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.000 actual community, the one that I have built, the one 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:50.440 that I as in under my wings online was so beautiful. 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.040 The response was so stunning. I mean, I cannot think 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.560 in fifteen years of leadership anything that has galvanized my 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:05.600 community more in terms of love, hair, support, encouragement, women 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.280 in my community coming out and going I've been right 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.480 where you're at. I'm ten miles further down the road 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.240 than you are. Keep going, this is what to expect, 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.040 this is what to do. It was like so helpful. 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.080 My community held up a bunch of lanterns for me 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.800 and said, keep walking this way. We promise you're going 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.320 to get here. We all got here, you're going to 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.600 do the same. It was. It turned out to be 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.000 the most beautiful soft landing I could have ever hoped for. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.240 Yeah, which is wonderful. I mean when you get that 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:37.479 sort of support. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.840 And from people in your actual life, like not just 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.520 online life too, And that was what I found interesting. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.920 I mean, obviously I don't know you personally know your 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.520 friends and all that, but one of the things I've 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.240 found with friends who have gotten divorced is very challenging. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.360 It's like, who gets custody of the friends? 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:52.400 Yeah, that's right, right? 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:55.040 If you had a couple of friends and like you're 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:56.920 a couple, like, well, am I going to go hang 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.920 out with Doan and Robert? Now, just as me to 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.160 feels weird, how did you navigate that? Because it sounded 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:04.880 like you you managed to keep a lot of them. 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.119 I did my own personal friends, the ones that I 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.600 live with and live by and live for, the ones 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.399 in my life and my family, and honestly, Awake is 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.560 essentially a love letter to them, as you saw they 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.000 loved me back to life. I I'll never get over 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.480 it as long as I live. But to your point, 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.520 I mean, we've been married for almost three decades. We 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:32.879 had a group like divorce breaks a million hearts. It 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.000 is not just the spouse that loses, it's the kids. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.640 My parents lost a son in law, my siblings lost 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.520 their brother in law. I lost my in laws. And 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.000 then we have this friend group of which we had 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.159 been in a tight pack for so long, and what 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.560 is that going to look like? And there's no one 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.679 way through this. In my particular story, I think a 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:03.080 lot of my friends loyal to me, in which if 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.119 they felt like they had to choose, and I'm not 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.000 sure they would say it in those stark terms, but 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.040 just based on the nature of the ending, Yeah, it 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.520 was dark and it was bleak, and I was left 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:22.000 here with the kids and with the remains of a life, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.080 and it made a bit of a before and then 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.119 after in our friendship group. 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.960 Yeah, oh there, you're really funny about it. I appreciate 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.520 that the memoir that you want them with a gathering 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.399 of like three couple friends and you you had to 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.359 bring two side dishes because you don't get out of 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.639 bringing two just because it's nobody sorry for me? 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.760 Like there, sorry, are you going to work? Like that sucks? 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.119 But you're gonna bring you two dishes? 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.639 Yeah, that's right, Like I geet excited, getting excited? 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.560 All right, got it? Got it? So I want to 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.360 talk about me Camp because I absolutely love this idea 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.479 of me camp. I mean, particularly for someone who was 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.760 married young. So you've been sharing space with your husband 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.320 and sharing decisions with your husband for since you're nineteen 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.239 years old. And then you've got five kids who are 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.080 if there anything like my five kids, they are always around. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.399 Somebody is always around it. 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.399 There's not a moment where there isn't somebody there in 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:14.840 the house. 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:19.160 So how did me camp come to be? And how 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:20.360 has this tradition evolved? 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.720 Yeah? I do want your listeners to know this is 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.840 not just a sad book about divorce. It's got a 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.080 lot more in there than just that divorce is not 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.840 that interesting. It's wider than that. It's also about grief 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.800 and recovery and ultimately flourishing, which is a great story 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.480 to be able to tell. And part of that tipping point, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.479 part of that turning point was what I ended up 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.560 calling me camp. It was sort of an accidental I 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:52.000 stumbled into it accidentally. At first. It had been almost 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:57.160 a year since I'd lost my marriage and I had 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:02.879 a kid who had deeply suffered, and I was like, 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.160 I got to get this kid out of this environment. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.240 We need something wholesome, we need something pure, no screens. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:11.719 We got to get off TikTok. We got to get 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.119 out of this house. So I signed her up for 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.480 a month of summer camp in Maine. This is a 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.120 state I've never been in in my life. But because 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.560 she was still pretty fragile, and so was I. Both 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:25.240 of us had fallen down to the bottom of the 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.560 ocean physically mentally, we were both pretty fragile, and so 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.320 all of a sudden, in a blaze of hubris, that 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.600 I just made up on the spot because I just 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.600 signed her up maybe with three weeks to go, I said, honey, 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.639 what if while you are at camp, I'll go to 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.360 Maine two and I'll just be there so that if 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.320 you need me at any moment, I'll be less than 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.240 two hours away. I can literally get in a car. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.400 And I don't even know what I was saying. I've 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.200 never even been to me like I don't even know 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.760 what I'm talking about, but I just felt like I 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.560 needed to provide this emotional safety that underne her. So 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:01.600 then all of a sudden, I was like, well, what 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:02.840 the hell am I going to do? What am I 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:03.720 going to do for? Well? 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:04.040 Who? 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.119 I've never even been to a movie by myself, And 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:13.639 so fast forward and I rented a house in bar Harbor, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:15.080 Main right on the coast. 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.120 Beautiful place, beautiful, Oh my god. 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:26.320 And thus began the most wonderful, healing, restorative months of 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.679 my entire life, solo travel for a month in a 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.480 beautiful place. My daughter was fine, she never even needed me, 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:36.840 never called, didn't And I was like, look at this 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.720 moment of independence of joy. I'm a solo traveler. I 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.919 love it. I'm not self conscious. I am absolutely like 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.240 invigorated and so on the spot. I didn't mean to 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.480 I wasn't looking to brand it. I was just I 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.560 didn't even know what I was doing. But I was like, God, 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.200 my daughter's at camp right now, this is my I'm 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.280