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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 1: and speaker.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,

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Speaker 2: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 2: love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,

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Speaker 1: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 3: Term career goals.

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Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 1: This episode is airing in late September of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: We're excited to welcome Jen Hatmaker back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Jen is the author of a brand new memoir called

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Speaker 1: a Wake, which is about the end of her twenty

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Speaker 1: six year marriage and the aftermath of that. So Jen

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Speaker 1: was actually on the show back in April of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: which I distinctly remember because it was one of those

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Speaker 1: pandemic like early pandemic interviews when I was doing it,

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Speaker 1: because if it aired in April, we were probably recording

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Speaker 1: in either early April or March or so everyone was

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Speaker 1: still sort of figuring out what on earth was going on.

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Speaker 3: And I remember talking to her then, but.

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Speaker 1: I was pondering, like, do you have memories of April

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Sarah, how was like that you were still

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Speaker 1: holding on too from.

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Speaker 3: That part of your life.

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Speaker 4: They weren't positive.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like I had a two and a

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Speaker 2: half year old, I had a kindergartener who was like

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Speaker 2: in virtual school, and it was like the failest failed

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Speaker 2: that ever failed, Like it just.

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Speaker 3: Did not work.

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Speaker 2: And then the only kid that was sort of learning

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Speaker 2: anything was maybe Namel in virtual second grade. But it

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Speaker 2: was still like highly depressing, and I had to work,

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Speaker 2: like so I would be on call in person. But

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Speaker 2: then otherwise I think we were entirely tallehealth, thinking it

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Speaker 2: was going to be like just a few weeks. So

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Speaker 2: I sitting upstairs like trying to see patients from my

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Speaker 2: office and I hate it. I still hate telehealth, like

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Speaker 2: I just really, I mean, for a quick follow up,

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Speaker 2: it's great, but for like a new patient evaluation or

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Speaker 2: talking about something serious, it's not ideal.

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Speaker 3: And then the kids were like loud and it was

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Speaker 3: not a fun time.

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Speaker 2: Plus Josh and I were like no, everyone was very

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Speaker 2: scared of the virus at that point, and Josh and

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Speaker 2: I were kind of like, well, we're getting it because

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Speaker 2: we're going to work and we have to and like

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Speaker 2: they're not even like enough mass to go around, and

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Speaker 2: who was wild.

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Speaker 3: At times, and I don't really remember it fondly.

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Speaker 2: My only happy memory from that period was going on

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Speaker 2: walks where Genevieve would like hug trees. So I think

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Speaker 2: that's what my I've golden whitewashed it to distilled it to.

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Speaker 1: That, but she was tree hugging, literal tree hugging. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean there wasn't much else to do. I guess

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Speaker 1: that was the little adventure for the day, to go

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Speaker 1: out and hug totally. Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Henry was an infant during that time and

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Speaker 1: he basically wouldn't sleep except on somebody, so either me

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Speaker 1: or Michael or one of our babysitters would have to

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Speaker 1: like hold him and trot him around. And then he

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Speaker 1: at some point decided to stop taking a bottle at all,

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Speaker 1: because why would he.

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Speaker 3: I was there, I was clearly there.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going anywhere, so it's a little hard to

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Speaker 1: convince him that there was another option. And yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just like everyone wearing masks during sort of crucial times

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Speaker 1: in other children's social emotional development that you can't read

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Speaker 1: social cues that take a long time to sort.

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Speaker 3: Of deal with the fallout of all that. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I still think that's why Genevieve's in speech today

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Speaker 2: yasing those key years with her teacher. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: had to do it at the time, but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: actually can't read blog posts from that time. Like I

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Speaker 2: if I accidentally like linked to one, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I closed it.

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Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's just it's a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well Jen was at the time when we talked,

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Speaker 1: she didn't actually have a whole lot of idea what

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Speaker 1: was about to happen. But as people who read her

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Speaker 1: memoir will find out, in July of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: middle of the night, two thirty am, she wakes up

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Speaker 1: to hear her husband of twenty six years dictating a

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Speaker 1: text to his girlfriend. If you could imagine, She mentions

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Speaker 1: in the book that it was weird that during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic he was lots of other places which nobody was

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Speaker 1: going anywhere during the pandemic, but suddenly he found places

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Speaker 1: to be a sort of pondering that it would have

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Speaker 1: been very challenging to pull off that during the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: Going where are you going? Where are you going? Doesn't

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Speaker 3: make sense?

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Speaker 1: But one thing I appreciated her memoir is it's not

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Speaker 1: just like my ex is a terrible person. I think

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Speaker 1: she delves deep into various problems that she refused to

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Speaker 1: see before then, and so I appreciate when things are

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Speaker 1: not entirely black and white, even in situations where it might.

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Speaker 3: Appear that they are.

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Speaker 1: So. In this interview, we discuss a week and Jim's

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Speaker 1: career evolution from sort of the Christian mommy blogger's sphere

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Speaker 1: to what she's doing now.

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Speaker 3: So we're excited to have her back.

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Speaker 1: So Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Jen Hatmaker

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Speaker 1: back to the show, first time since twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: So, Jen, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having

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Speaker 4: me again again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, why don't.

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Speaker 1: You tell our listeners really quickly for those who weren't

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Speaker 1: listening in twenty twenty, a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's see, what's the snapshot of my life. I

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Speaker 4: live in Austin, Texas. I've been here for a long time.

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Speaker 4: I've got five kids. They're all like young adultish, we're

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Speaker 4: nineteen to twenty seven, and I've been a single parent

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Speaker 4: now for five years. So that was not anything I

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Speaker 4: ever expected. But that's where I'm at now. That's a

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Speaker 4: change since the last time we spoke. And I'm a writer.

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Speaker 4: I've written a lot of books. The first hout whole

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Speaker 4: half of them were absolutely terrible, and I tell people

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Speaker 4: all the time, I'm like, if you read one of

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Speaker 4: my first five books, I will never speak to you

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Speaker 4: again ever. And so, and I have a podcast it's

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Speaker 4: called for the Love and I love it. And I

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Speaker 4: just have a great life on my best friend I

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Speaker 4: live on the same street and one over for my

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Speaker 4: best friends in the world. My whole family lives here,

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Speaker 4: and also my parents and all my siblings and my

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Speaker 4: adult kids minus my marine. So I'm just in a

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Speaker 4: really happy moment in my life for sure.

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Speaker 3: Which is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Which is an interesting to be talking about this memoir,

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Speaker 1: of course, when you're in this wonderful place, because the

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Speaker 1: memoir Awake is about the end and aftermath of your

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Speaker 1: twenty six year marriage. I mean, did you ever imagine,

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Speaker 1: like in the mess and Moxie era that this would

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Speaker 1: be a book that would be on the shelf next

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Speaker 1: to all those.

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Speaker 4: I mean, not in the outer most reaches of my imagination,

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Speaker 4: like it would have been the opposite. I would have

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Speaker 4: had a fairly like violet reason response to the suggestion

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Speaker 4: that I might one day write a divorce memoir. I mean,

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Speaker 4: come on, we were married for twenty six years, and

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Speaker 4: we were we had done like a whole we'd done

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Speaker 4: the thing, we'd done the like Christian do the right

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Speaker 4: template thing. We got married really young in Baptist Bible College,

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Speaker 4: and I was a nineteen year old bride, if you

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Speaker 4: can even imagine something so absurd and insane, and married

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Speaker 4: for twenty six years. He was a pastor, and we

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Speaker 4: started a church here. And so no, no, under no

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Speaker 4: circumstances did I ever foresee or even moderately suspect that

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Speaker 4: this was going to be my story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I mean, life comes out all of

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Speaker 1: us hard, right, I mean, this is just the truth

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Speaker 1: life happens. But one thing I really appreciated about this

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Speaker 1: memoir is it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: Just like this guy is terrible.

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Speaker 1: It would be very tempting to write a memoir you

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Speaker 1: have a public platform and be like, my ex is

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Speaker 1: a horrible person. But you talk a lot about the

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Speaker 1: challenges of the fact that you did get married so young.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and what happens with that? I mean, what are

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Speaker 3: the issues inherent?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you guys were together for twenty six years,

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Speaker 1: but when you get together at age nineteen, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what are the challenges that come with that?

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Speaker 4: Oh? My god, I have a nineteen year old right

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Speaker 4: this second. My youngest kid is nineteen. If she came

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Speaker 4: home today and said she was engaged, I would run

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Speaker 4: her over with my car. She is a baby. She

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Speaker 4: doesn't know anything about anything, and neither did I, but

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Speaker 4: I thought I did not. Only is there just the

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Speaker 4: obvious immaturity and undeveloped nature of being an actual teenager.

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Speaker 4: I got married halfway through my sophomore year of college.

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Speaker 4: So we were just simply half baked. Like, put two

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Speaker 4: people together in that age range and expect them to

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Speaker 4: understand conflict resolution, to understand attachment styles, to know how

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Speaker 4: to manage their money like just a banana system. And

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Speaker 4: then there was kind of the bigger story around, which

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Speaker 4: was one of sort of religious dogma, and so there

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Speaker 4: was a real high premium placed on like sexual purity

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Speaker 4: in our subculture, and so the only credible way through

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Speaker 4: that conundrum was to get married, because that's the only

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Speaker 4: place sex belonged back then, as we were told, was

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Speaker 4: inside marriage. But everything after that was just absolutely like

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Speaker 4: shame based and like fear based. And I know exactly

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Speaker 4: how that worked. And so that was a driver into

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Speaker 4: like a covenant that we were simply unprepared to make.

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Speaker 4: Even if you can even just think of, like who

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Speaker 4: you might have chosen as a life partner when you

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Speaker 4: were eighteen years old, can you even think of that,

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Speaker 4: like you would just grow up and choose differently when

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Speaker 4: you were a full blown adult. And so I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of compassion actually for both of us, not

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Speaker 4: just me. I have compassion for him too. It's taken

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Speaker 4: me a long time to get there. And that is

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Speaker 4: not an excuse. I'm not saying, oh, well, now I

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Speaker 4: feel great about all his choices. That's not what I mean.

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Speaker 4: But we were both handed a story at a really

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Speaker 4: young age, and we played those roles to the best

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Speaker 4: of our ability. Yeah, and I'm sorry for what that

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Speaker 4: subculture actually stole from both of us.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, We're going to take a quick ad break and

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Speaker 1: then I'll be back with more from Jen Hatmaker. So

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Speaker 1: I'm talking now with Jen Hatmaker here on Best of

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Speaker 1: Both Worlds. And when we talked in twenty twenty and April,

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Speaker 1: it was the middle of the pandemic, and all the

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Speaker 1: events that started this book happen shortly after that in

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Speaker 1: the summer I believe of twenty twenty. But I follow

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Speaker 1: you online and one of the things that's fascinating to

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Speaker 1: me with people who are very online, who have a

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Speaker 1: public presence, public following, and things life happens, things go bad,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how you are going to address

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Speaker 1: that that you're used to sharing so much about life,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like stories of your kid peeing in target

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing that's on your brain is something that

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Speaker 1: is so hard to write about. So maybe you could

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Speaker 1: talk us through how that went, like how you were

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Speaker 1: figuring out what to share, like as your life and

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Speaker 1: your family is in crisis, and how you thought that

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Speaker 1: would go, and then how it did wind up going.

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Speaker 4: That's so fuzzy, like that whole season is just bogged

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Speaker 4: down in this fog of grief in my memory because

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Speaker 4: First of all, the end of my marriage was a

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Speaker 4: shock and a trauma. It wasn't like we had been

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Speaker 4: having conversations like privately and we had finally just emerged

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Speaker 4: with this decision we had made. It wasn't like that.

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Speaker 4: It was like the type of ending where you go

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Speaker 4: to bed with one kind of life and you wake

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Speaker 4: up the next day with a completely different life. That

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Speaker 4: was how it was. And so the level of shock

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Speaker 4: and betrayal and grief and suffering that we were experiencing

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Speaker 4: in the family was just unprecedented for us. And then

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Speaker 4: on top of that, I had to figure out how

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Speaker 4: to manage a pretty public facing career, one for which

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Speaker 4: at least a part of what I have talked about

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Speaker 4: for fifteen or twenty years in front of people, among

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Speaker 4: other things, is marriage and family. So I mean this

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Speaker 4: is it felt not like just such a catastrophic personal loss,

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Speaker 4: but also like a loss of I wondered if it

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Speaker 4: would be a loss of credibility, whatever sort of confidence

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Speaker 4: I had ever inspired in my community. I had no idea,

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Speaker 4: to be honest, but at the beginning it was all

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Speaker 4: just so very traumatic. I just went silent. I just

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Speaker 4: didn't do anything. I just went a wall. I don't

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Speaker 4: have the capacity to just pretend. I just don't have it.

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Speaker 4: Like I did not have the ability to come online

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Speaker 4: and just say something about something over here while my

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Speaker 4: life was in tatters. I don't That's not my way.

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Speaker 4: So I just said nothing, and of course that did

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Speaker 4: not go unnoticed. A big portion of my career is

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Speaker 4: locate online, and that's where we gather, and that's where

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Speaker 4: I write, and that's where whatever, and so I eventually

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Speaker 4: just had to put a placeholder out there and just

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Speaker 4: say we're in it, like we're in it, just I

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Speaker 4: don't know what to say about it, but just we're

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Speaker 4: in it. Like if you can spare a kind thought

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Speaker 4: toward our family, send it. And that just sort of

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Speaker 4: held the tide at bay for a while until a journalist,

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Speaker 4: I say journalists loosely, but like a person who runs

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Speaker 4: a website dedicated to kind of like Christian Gotchas if

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Speaker 4: you will, found our online filing and we had tried

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Speaker 4: to keep that as private as we could with initials,

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Speaker 4: and it didn't matter. She found it and wrote a

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Speaker 4: whole thing exposing our divorce. So we hadn't even told

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Speaker 4: all of our family yet, and it was pretty devastating,

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Speaker 4: So just kind of on the spot. It was trending,

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Speaker 4: and it was interesting because her particular site was sort

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Speaker 4: of a lightning rod for like Christian fundamentalists, if you will,

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Speaker 4: like the gatekeepers, the type who are looking like preparing

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Speaker 4: to catch anybody in any trap. And so the response

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Speaker 4: was overwhelmingly to blame me for it? What did she do?

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Speaker 4: We knew this was going to happen, We knew this

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Speaker 4: was her problem, she says, what she deserves. My husband,

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Speaker 4: by the way, omitted from the reckoning, ironically, when all

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Speaker 4: of it was his doing. And so that was a

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Speaker 4: really chaotic season. But I will say, as I landed,

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Speaker 4: sorry for such a long answer, what happened in my

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Speaker 4: actual community, the one that I have built, the one

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Speaker 4: that I as in under my wings online was so beautiful.

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Speaker 4: The response was so stunning. I mean, I cannot think

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Speaker 4: in fifteen years of leadership anything that has galvanized my

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Speaker 4: community more in terms of love, hair, support, encouragement, women

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Speaker 4: in my community coming out and going I've been right

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Speaker 4: where you're at. I'm ten miles further down the road

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Speaker 4: than you are. Keep going, this is what to expect,

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Speaker 4: this is what to do. It was like so helpful.

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Speaker 4: My community held up a bunch of lanterns for me

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Speaker 4: and said, keep walking this way. We promise you're going

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Speaker 4: to get here. We all got here, you're going to

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Speaker 4: do the same. It was. It turned out to be

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Speaker 4: the most beautiful soft landing I could have ever hoped for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is wonderful. I mean when you get that

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Speaker 3: sort of support.

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Speaker 1: And from people in your actual life, like not just

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Speaker 1: online life too, And that was what I found interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I don't know you personally know your

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Speaker 1: friends and all that, but one of the things I've

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Speaker 1: found with friends who have gotten divorced is very challenging.

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Speaker 3: It's like, who gets custody of the friends?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, right?

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Speaker 1: If you had a couple of friends and like you're

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Speaker 1: a couple, like, well, am I going to go hang

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Speaker 1: out with Doan and Robert? Now, just as me to

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Speaker 1: feels weird, how did you navigate that? Because it sounded

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Speaker 1: like you you managed to keep a lot of them.

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Speaker 4: I did my own personal friends, the ones that I

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Speaker 4: live with and live by and live for, the ones

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Speaker 4: in my life and my family, and honestly, Awake is

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Speaker 4: essentially a love letter to them, as you saw they

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Speaker 4: loved me back to life. I I'll never get over

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Speaker 4: it as long as I live. But to your point,

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Speaker 4: I mean, we've been married for almost three decades. We

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Speaker 4: had a group like divorce breaks a million hearts. It

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Speaker 4: is not just the spouse that loses, it's the kids.

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Speaker 4: My parents lost a son in law, my siblings lost

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Speaker 4: their brother in law. I lost my in laws. And

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Speaker 4: then we have this friend group of which we had

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Speaker 4: been in a tight pack for so long, and what

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Speaker 4: is that going to look like? And there's no one

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Speaker 4: way through this. In my particular story, I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of my friends loyal to me, in which if

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Speaker 4: they felt like they had to choose, and I'm not

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Speaker 4: sure they would say it in those stark terms, but

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Speaker 4: just based on the nature of the ending, Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: was dark and it was bleak, and I was left

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Speaker 4: here with the kids and with the remains of a life,

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Speaker 4: and it made a bit of a before and then

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Speaker 4: after in our friendship group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh there, you're really funny about it. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that the memoir that you want them with a gathering

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Speaker 1: of like three couple friends and you you had to

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Speaker 1: bring two side dishes because you don't get out of

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Speaker 1: bringing two just because it's nobody sorry for me?

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Speaker 4: Like there, sorry, are you going to work? Like that sucks?

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Speaker 3: But you're gonna bring you two dishes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, Like I geet excited, getting excited?

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Speaker 1: All right, got it? Got it? So I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about me Camp because I absolutely love this idea

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Speaker 1: of me camp. I mean, particularly for someone who was

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Speaker 1: married young. So you've been sharing space with your husband

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Speaker 1: and sharing decisions with your husband for since you're nineteen

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Speaker 1: years old. And then you've got five kids who are

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Speaker 1: if there anything like my five kids, they are always around.

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Speaker 3: Somebody is always around it.

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Speaker 1: There's not a moment where there isn't somebody there in

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Speaker 1: the house.

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Speaker 3: So how did me camp come to be? And how

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Speaker 3: has this tradition evolved?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I do want your listeners to know this is

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Speaker 4: not just a sad book about divorce. It's got a

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Speaker 4: lot more in there than just that divorce is not

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Speaker 4: that interesting. It's wider than that. It's also about grief

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Speaker 4: and recovery and ultimately flourishing, which is a great story

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Speaker 4: to be able to tell. And part of that tipping point,

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Speaker 4: part of that turning point was what I ended up

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Speaker 4: calling me camp. It was sort of an accidental I

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Speaker 4: stumbled into it accidentally. At first. It had been almost

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Speaker 4: a year since I'd lost my marriage and I had

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Speaker 4: a kid who had deeply suffered, and I was like,

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Speaker 4: I got to get this kid out of this environment.

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Speaker 4: We need something wholesome, we need something pure, no screens.

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Speaker 4: We got to get off TikTok. We got to get

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Speaker 4: out of this house. So I signed her up for

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Speaker 4: a month of summer camp in Maine. This is a

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Speaker 4: state I've never been in in my life. But because

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Speaker 4: she was still pretty fragile, and so was I. Both

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Speaker 4: of us had fallen down to the bottom of the

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Speaker 4: ocean physically mentally, we were both pretty fragile, and so

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, in a blaze of hubris, that

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Speaker 4: I just made up on the spot because I just

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Speaker 4: signed her up maybe with three weeks to go, I said, honey,

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Speaker 4: what if while you are at camp, I'll go to

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Speaker 4: Maine two and I'll just be there so that if

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Speaker 4: you need me at any moment, I'll be less than

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Speaker 4: two hours away. I can literally get in a car.

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Speaker 4: And I don't even know what I was saying. I've

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Speaker 4: never even been to me like I don't even know

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Speaker 4: what I'm talking about, but I just felt like I

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Speaker 4: needed to provide this emotional safety that underne her. So

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, I was like, well, what

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Speaker 4: the hell am I going to do? What am I

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Speaker 4: going to do for? Well?

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Speaker 1: Who?

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Speaker 4: I've never even been to a movie by myself, And

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Speaker 4: so fast forward and I rented a house in bar Harbor,

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Speaker 4: Main right on the coast.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful place, beautiful, Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: And thus began the most wonderful, healing, restorative months of

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Speaker 4: my entire life, solo travel for a month in a

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Speaker 4: beautiful place. My daughter was fine, she never even needed me,

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Speaker 4: never called, didn't And I was like, look at this

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Speaker 4: moment of independence of joy. I'm a solo traveler. I

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Speaker 4: love it. I'm not self conscious. I am absolutely like

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Speaker 4: invigorated and so on the spot. I didn't mean to

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Speaker 4: I wasn't looking to brand it. I was just I

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Speaker 4: didn't even know what I was doing. But I was like, God,

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Speaker 4: my daughter's at camp right now, this is my I'm

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Speaker 4: at camp. I'm like, this is my me camp. And

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Speaker 4: it genuinely was a turning point in my recovery, and

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Speaker 4: I have since repeated it five times that.

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Speaker 3: Where did you go this summer?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Where's this summer? And went to a tiny town

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Speaker 4: on the Oregon coast called Yahats Yahats, Oregon. It is

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Speaker 4: my fifth meet camp in a row where I mostly

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Speaker 4: travel solo for the month of July and it has been,

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Speaker 4: honestly one of the best things has ever happened to me,

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Speaker 4: and so I love it. Never going to end it.

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Speaker 4: As long as I can tear it up, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to keep doing it.

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Speaker 1: Well, We're going to take one more quick ad break

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Speaker 1: and I'll be back with more from Jen Hatmaker. Well,

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Speaker 1: I am back talking with Jen Hatmaker about her new

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Speaker 1: memoir a week now. I have to ask, because you

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Speaker 1: are in a new relationship. You've posted that on social media,

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Speaker 1: you and your boyfriend or partner or whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to call him, But how is he with the idea

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Speaker 1: of you taking months to go off and.

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Speaker 3: Do a camp.

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Speaker 4: Oh, he loves it. He loves it for me, and

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Speaker 4: since he hit the scene, he comes and visits me

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Speaker 4: for a few days at every meet camp for sure,

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Speaker 4: So he's thrilled about it. He gets like a he

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Speaker 4: gets a full mini vacation out of my personal meat

427
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Speaker 4: camp as well. But no, he cherishes my independence almost

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Speaker 4: as much as I do. And so we're old. I'm

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Speaker 4: fifty one, he's forty nine. We're not grabby and needy

430
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Speaker 4: and co dependent in a lot of the ways that

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Speaker 4: we were when we were young adults, in a lot

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Speaker 4: of the ways that I was when I built a marriage.

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Speaker 4: We've already done the part where you build a life.

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Speaker 4: That's in our rearview mirror right now. We just get

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Speaker 4: to live one and it is such a delight, and

436
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Speaker 4: it is such a joy. I don't need him to

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Speaker 4: make my life right, and he doesn't need me to

438
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 4: make his life right. So each of us is just

439
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 4: free to be a good partner without kind of crushing

440
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 4: the autonomy of the other one. We don't live in

441
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: the same set. We're long distance. I live in Texas,

442
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 4: he lives in Tennessee. But it has been a very

443
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 4: surprising joy. I did not go looking for him. The

444
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 4: universe dropped him in my lap, like the old fashioned

445
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 4: way where you meet somebody out in the wild. Because

446
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 4: if you remember, in a wake, I do tell the

447
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 4: story of my twelve hours on a dating app, and

448
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 4: it was dark.

449
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: It was not the place to be.

450
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 4: It's not for me. I just I went twelve hours

451
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 4: in delete the app never again. I'm sorry. I'd rather

452
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 4: just be single the rest of my life. So yeah, yeah,

453
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 4: I felt really lucky that he's in my life, but

454
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 4: he did not fix me. I found him when my

455
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: heart had already healed, and I got to be a

456
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 4: different version of myself in this relationship.

457
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: Which is wonderful.

458
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

459
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: I mean, the title of the memoir is Awake, and

460
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: I mean it's about this idea of we can sort

461
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: of sleep walk through a lot of life.

462
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: Especially when we make decisions young.

463
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you have advice for someone like, how

464
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: does one wake up in life without necessarily going through

465
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: an obvious trauma like this?

466
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't actually believe that we have to experience

467
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 4: trauma to be shaken out of a slumper. That's how

468
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 4: it ends up working for a lot of us, because

469
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 4: there's a lot of factors that will rock us to

470
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: sleep in our own life. And it is definitely the

471
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 4: path of least resistance, but it is possible to choose it.

472
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 4: It is possible to choose going through your life in

473
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 4: a posture of being wide awake to your own story.

474
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 4: And for me, I can only do this in hindsight,

475
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 4: but there is a real moment that I think each

476
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: of us have to say what is actually true about

477
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 4: our lives, our marriage, our habits, our relationships, our addictions,

478
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 4: our dreams. We can choose to be honest about those

479
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 4: or not. But what happens is, I think for a

480
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 4: lot of people, and this is how it was in

481
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 4: my life. And I mentioned this in the book that

482
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: I wanted the story of my marriage, not my actual marriage,

483
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 4: and I was very committed to it. I was committed

484
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 4: to the outcome I wanted. We weren't experiencing that, and

485
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 4: I didn't know how we were going to get there.

486
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 4: But I was so committed to what I wanted out

487
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 4: of that that I refused to actually face what was

488
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: what is true here, what is actually happening right now?

489
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: And so I am hopeful for so many people who

490
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 4: will choose instead the courage to say kind of face

491
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 4: what actually is, what's actually true, even if it's hard, embarrassing, humiliating, inconvenient,

492
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 4: disrupt dive, because most things are, even then I am

493
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 4: going to face them head on. I'm going to say,

494
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: this is what's true, this is what is not what

495
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: I wish it was. And then I'm going to reorient

496
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 4: my life around that truth. I wonder sometimes what would

497
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 4: have happened if I could have done that, if I

498
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 4: would have had the courage to do that, what would

499
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: it have looked like? I'll never know, because I lived

500
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 4: too long in the story, and somebody made the choice

501
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 4: for me, and so then I had to. Then I

502
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 4: was forced to reorient my life or on what was true.

503
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 4: And I will tell you that here, five years later,

504
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: almost exactly, my true life is so much more full

505
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: than the one that I had before. And you could

506
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: not have told me that five years ago when everything

507
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 4: was shredded. But it is actually more abundant and expansive

508
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 4: and just plain happier to live a true story than

509
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 4: to force a fake one into existence. And so I

510
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: hope people will dig deep and go I'm not going

511
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: to let somebody else choose this for me. I'm going

512
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 4: to go ahead and face what's actually true about my

513
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 4: own life and then adjust my life so that that

514
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 4: truth is the one I'm living.

515
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely well, and one thing that is true right now.

516
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 1: To end on a sort of later note, you are

517
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: driving what is it a nineteen seventy six stick shift Bronco.

518
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: I mentioned that story that I'd never bought my own car.

519
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 4: I mean I had in so many ways, my adulthood

520
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 4: was stunted, and that's somebody's fault, that's mine. I phoned

521
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 4: a bunch of stuff in because I had a partner

522
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: from such a young age that I didn't have to

523
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: learn some adult skills. Buying a car was one of them.

524
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 4: And so yeah, the first car I ever bought, all

525
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 4: by myself after my divorce was a nineteen seventy five Bronco.

526
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: What I wanted.

527
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: But did you know how to drive? Stick shift?

528
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 4: And I did? You did?

529
00:28:59,360 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: Okay?

530
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: I did. I was a child of the eighties. We

531
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: all had are okay? All right?

532
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: Well I had one horrible experience with it and that

533
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: was the end of it for me.

534
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 4: You're an automatic girl for life.

535
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: I mean I had at a girl for life. But

536
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: uh oh, well, I guess that is so Dan. We

537
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: always end with the love of the week, which I

538
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: guess could be your Bronco if you want it could

539
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: be something else.

540
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: I will say.

541
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: I'm actually this is just whatever is cool for you.

542
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: Right now.

543
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm recording this from a random coworking space in Nowheresville.

544
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: New Jersey that I rented because my beach house has

545
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 1: really terrible Wi Fi. And I kind of like it,

546
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: like there's a nice little plant on the desk, Like

547
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: there's no clutter, like it's my office, except there's no

548
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: clutter like ten years of home office clutter that I've

549
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: built up. So big fan, big fan, how about you.

550
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 4: One thing that I'm loving right now are my indoor plants.

551
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 4: I decided last year to become a plant person on

552
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 4: the spot. And I'm a person who's never ever kept

553
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 4: plants alive ever. So I called my daughter, my twenty

554
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 4: five year old, who is a plant savant, and I said,

555
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: I would like you to help me be a plant

556
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 4: person for my birthday. So she came over and we

557
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: potted a bunch of plants. Now, some of them are

558
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 4: it's definitely rip, like they didn't all make it. But

559
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 4: my plants give me so much joy and I pay

560
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 4: so much attention to them, and I'm constantly like tweaking

561
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: and pruning and watering and snipping, and every time I

562
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 4: look at them, they made me so happy. So my

563
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: indoor plants is the end thing.

564
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: Kept them alive, kept them alive, all right? Well, thank

565
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Where can people find you?

566
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: Well, as you might imagine, there's not that many gin

567
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 4: hat Makers, So if you put in gin hat Maker,

568
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 4: you will find me. Jinhatmaker dot Com is my website.

569
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 4: That is the location of everything that I do over there,

570
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: and then I'm Gina hat Maker on all the socials

571
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 4: and my podcast is called for the Love with gin Hatmaker.

572
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: Awesome. All right, well, thank you so much for joining us.

573
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 4: Appreciate you having me.

574
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, that was fascinating. I cannot wait to

575
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 2: check out that book. Okay, So our question comes from

576
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: a listener. They have an older kid and they want

577
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: to know is there a system for who has the

578
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: car once you have eighteen driver?

579
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: How did you figure that out? Any mistakes to avoid? Perhaps?

580
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is tough and in our case, so we

581
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: were trying to get by with Jasper and me sharing

582
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: a car, and the general idea was that he was

583
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: driving to school. So then that kind of left me

584
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: without a car during the day. And I don't always

585
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: go many places during the day, but it was still

586
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: a little weird to not have the ability to go anywhere.

587
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: And I could on Wednesdays and Fridays. The van was

588
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: available for part of the day, but normally the van

589
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: is what our nanny would use to drive around the

590
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: little kids, and so that was still had Henry at

591
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: various points during this So I wasn't going to be like, Okay,

592
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: you guys have to sit at home because I have

593
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: to take the car somewhere. Which way I have to

594
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: arrange it. Long story short, we wound up getting another vehicle,

595
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that's going to work for everyone.

596
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: I understand there are real reasons people either can't or

597
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, but I'm also of the

598
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: opinion that sometimes reducing mental load is worth putting some

599
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: money into, and you might be able to get a

600
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: kid a I mean, a safe car, but it definitely

601
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: does not need to be flashy or expensive or.

602
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: Anything like well or new. Yeah, probably shouldn't be new.

603
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: I would put that out there because the odds of

604
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: them dinging it are probably pretty high, and if that's

605
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: going to upset you with a new car, perhaps you

606
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: don't wish to do that.

607
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: What we actually wound up doing is that I got

608
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: my car back because I like my car. It's old,

609
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 3: but I like it.

610
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: Jasper got Michael's old car which is a twenty eighteen car,

611
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: and then Michael got a new car, which he was

612
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: happy with because he wanted a new car. So everyone

613
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: was pleased with how the trade worked out. But I

614
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: would say, don't entirely rule that out. I know a

615
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: lot of people don't want to or think maybe we

616
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: won't work. But you could also, especially if you're going

617
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 1: to have a lot of teenagers, you might decide that

618
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: you're going to need a teen car that gets passed

619
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: from kid to kid as people graduate.

620
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, if your plan is to get that

621
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: kitt car eventually and it would make your life easier

622
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: to get it for them while they're still in your house,

623
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: logic would have it that it might just make sense

624
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: to bite the bullet. And you're right, it doesn't have

625
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: to be getting that kit of car. Could be getting

626
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: yourself a car so that they can have your nice, safe,

627
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: seven or eight year old car.

628
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean this could be something that you

629
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: don't want to like, I mean, if you're worried about

630
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: like spoiling a kid or something, and me, you could

631
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: definitely have them contribute to it, right, Like, I mean,

632
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: this could be something that like, Okay, we are going

633
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: to get the car, and then you are going to

634
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: be responsible for X of the cost, or we expect

635
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: you to con tribute x from savings from a summer

636
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: job toward this.

637
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: As part of it.

638
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: But especially if your kid has a lot of places

639
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: to go, like not having to drive them, there.

640
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: Is a huge benefit, I know, like not.

641
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: Having to drive fifteen minutes to voice lessons and then

642
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: hang out there for an hour and drive fifteen minutes back.

643
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: It was just like, Yeah, it's an hour and a

644
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: half out of my life that I.

645
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: Don't have to deal with because he could drive himself.

646
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 3: That's where I don't know. I'm I know.

647
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: That wasn't the answer that people wanted. You know, we

648
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 1: have an elaborate system where you put in your bid

649
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: for having the car for the day or whatever.

650
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: So maybe they're looking for permission to go ahead looking

651
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: for for it. So you just gave it.

652
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 4: We gave it.

653
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 1: Yep, all right, Well this has been best of both worlds.

654
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: I was interviewing Jen Hatmaker about her new memoir Awake.

655
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making

656
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: work and life fit together.

657
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

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Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: and you.

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Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This

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Speaker 1: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join

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Speaker 1: us next time for more on making work and life

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Speaker 1: work together