Speaker 1: M episode start Begin now, Robert Evans, Behind the Bastards
Speaker 1: Podcast Part two, John Ronald Brown, Sophia, Alexandra Guest, private
Speaker 1: parts unknown, introduction bad, How are you doing, Sophia good?
Speaker 1: Just you can mention my other podcast work with mild Gray.
Speaker 1: It's I forgot to include of the actual words necessary
Speaker 1: to make that salad not gibberish. So of course I
Speaker 1: forgot your second podcast too. That was a disaster. A disaster, um.
Speaker 1: I think you will keep having a disaster until you
Speaker 1: commit to going back to the old ways what I
Speaker 1: have my wise, I have committed to getting fired and
Speaker 1: then becoming a corrupt small time cop. I think that's
Speaker 1: the path I want to go with. Did you if
Speaker 1: you watch Jaws recently, there's a scene in the second
Speaker 1: Jaws movie where Sheriff Brody gets at oh man, it's great.
Speaker 1: There's a scene in the second Jaws movie where Sheriff
Speaker 1: Brody gets out of his police car and is preceded
Speaker 1: by forty or fifty beer cans tumbling out onto the
Speaker 1: ground around him, and like, that's exactly what I want
Speaker 1: to do for a living, just rolling around in a
Speaker 1: police car, drunk as ship with a gun. No accountability
Speaker 1: on some beach town in the middle of nowhere. I'm
Speaker 1: glad that you're going to be a corrupt small town
Speaker 1: cop because, as as we discussed in the previous episode,
Speaker 1: I will be performing unauthorized surgeries and at that point
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need a friend in the police department. Friend, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the plan. Hey, would you like to be
Speaker 1: the non doctor con man veterinarians doctor Spence to my
Speaker 1: doctor Ronald und Yeah, no not, you're the cop. You
Speaker 1: already have a role to play. Would you so feel
Speaker 1: with you on anything? My friend? Perfect? We got a
Speaker 1: clinic going, Robert, keep us out of the papers, all right,
Speaker 1: Well that's good, you know, Sophie, it's complicated. I feel
Speaker 1: like I want to know more about Spence because this
Speaker 1: is not just a simple man pretending to be a doctor.
Speaker 1: This is a man pretending to be a veterinarian who
Speaker 1: pretends to be a doctor. And that's like a whole
Speaker 1: different layer of scamminess. And oh, it's hilarious that he
Speaker 1: needed to first fool himself to step one. He's like, no,
Speaker 1: pretending to be a doctor. He's like, I can't do that,
Speaker 1: that's too much lying. First, I'm gonna pretend to be
Speaker 1: a vet and out of there pretending to be a doctor.
Speaker 1: That's not that far. I can do that. Yeah, it's amazing,
Speaker 1: It's really amazing. Can we put up a picture of
Speaker 1: him too, because I'd like to, But the faces of
Speaker 1: that firm were not for doctors clinic. He died in
Speaker 1: a ditch like that is my assumption that he died
Speaker 1: in a ditch overdosing on something horrible. If the world
Speaker 1: it isn't any way, just in which it's not, he
Speaker 1: would have died in a dish. So let's start part two. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: As I mentioned in the first episode, John Ronald Brown
Speaker 1: didn't only have sad stories in terms of his patients.
Speaker 1: He had some happy customers. One of them was Patrese Baxter.
Speaker 1: She was a longtime client and she calls him one
Speaker 1: of the best surgeons in the United States, even though
Speaker 1: by the time she met him, he was no longer
Speaker 1: legally allowed to practice surgery in the United States. Still,
Speaker 1: Dr Brown illegally gave Patrise a tummy tuck, a facelift,
Speaker 1: and breast implants. She was so happy with the results
Speaker 1: that she had him cut into her granddaughter's ears. Quote
Speaker 1: they stuck out. The kids on her track team called
Speaker 1: her dumbo, why don't you just fly? He did her
Speaker 1: nose too. Patrese claims the surgery went well enough that
Speaker 1: her granddaughter went on to work as a model, So
Speaker 1: she clearly admired the man, But even Dr Brown's number
Speaker 1: one fan acknowledged that he had some faults. She's also
Speaker 1: not a good person if she's getting years of fucking granddaughter. Cut.
Speaker 1: We haven't even gotten into what a bad person she
Speaker 1: is right away. So she said he was brilliant, but
Speaker 1: he had no common sense. He would walk through plate
Speaker 1: glass doors. He couldn't balance his checkbook through a screen
Speaker 1: door before. That is embarrassing and shameful. Um, now, just
Speaker 1: t whis bring me to and it's very cute. Tut tusk,
Speaker 1: tut tut tusk tusk who says that no one she
Speaker 1: acknowledged that his bedside manner was not exactly great. Uh.
Speaker 1: Sometimes he would grab a magazine mid conversation and start reading.
Speaker 1: He mumbled frequently, and he never held his patient's hands. Still,
Speaker 1: Patrese insists he was more of a hero than a villain.
Speaker 1: He only charged for a sex change, and half the
Speaker 1: time they didn't even pay. Now, before you take Pat
Speaker 1: Baxter's commentary too seriously, you should know that she wasn't
Speaker 1: just satisfied customer. She was also a surgical entrepreneur, which
Speaker 1: is one of the most terrified phrases I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: I lived in San Diego and ran a shady as
Speaker 1: clinic in Mexico. She and John Brown became business partners
Speaker 1: and worked together for years. She urged John to expand
Speaker 1: his repertoire beyond basic plastic surgery and gender reassignment. There was,
Speaker 1: she told him, a vast untapped market in men who
Speaker 1: wanted bigger dicks. Oh man, I'm kind of excited about
Speaker 1: where this is going. Oh yeah, yeah, I know this
Speaker 1: is going in a fun direction. And it's one of
Speaker 1: those things we've just been talking about the most vulnerable
Speaker 1: people in the world been getting screwed over by this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah about this, Yeah, I mean, I'm societal of this. Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: So Dr Brown got into the penix extension business in
Speaker 1: Penthouse Forum sent a writer to to Wanta to investigate
Speaker 1: Brown's practice. Now, the good not a doctor had started
Speaker 1: claiming an advertise spence that he could add one to
Speaker 1: two inches to a dick by cutting the suspenser ligament
Speaker 1: that held the penis root to the pubic bone, which
Speaker 1: I wrote as public bone, which is not a thing,
Speaker 1: but I found funny. Um. The article, titled The Incredible
Speaker 1: Dick Doctor, portrayed Dr Brown actively as a horrible driver
Speaker 1: who frequently backed into other cars. It pointed out that
Speaker 1: his pants fell down once in the o R at one.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's like a cartoon. That's imagine, right
Speaker 1: before doctor starts cutting into you, his pants fall down.
Speaker 1: You're like, Okay, I have to cancel the surgery if
Speaker 1: you know aeal. Next, I am fucking telling everyone an
Speaker 1: anvil just falls on his head. That's ridiculous, dude. At
Speaker 1: one point in the article, he accidentally cut a patient's
Speaker 1: penile shaft, sending blood spurting all over the room. His
Speaker 1: quoted response to this funk up was I made a
Speaker 1: boo boo. I was gonna guess it was oops. But
Speaker 1: this is worse. Yeah, that's definitely worse than oops. So
Speaker 1: someone from Inside Edition must have been reading Penthouse for
Speaker 1: the articles, because three years later they sent a team
Speaker 1: to investigate Dr Brown. The resulting documentary, The Worst Doctor
Speaker 1: in America, was filmed with Brown's oblivious consent. At one point,
Speaker 1: it showed him performing scalp surgery on a transwoman who
Speaker 1: was supposed to be sedated, but the sedation didn't take
Speaker 1: and the patient screamed and cried while the team recorded.
Speaker 1: Brown called this nothing unusual. There's a special segment of
Speaker 1: one interview that I think is worth me reading in
Speaker 1: full inside edition. This is them narrating. But to Brown,
Speaker 1: failure is no reason to proceed with caution, and he
Speaker 1: continues to experiment on humans whenever he develops a new procedure.
Speaker 1: And this is Brown talking back in the developmental stage.
Speaker 1: I remember several times asking myself, is it really right
Speaker 1: for me to be doing what amounts to experiments on
Speaker 1: some of these people? After thinking it all through, these
Speaker 1: people knew what I was doing, They knew I wasn't
Speaker 1: It wasn't a proven experiment. They were all willing. So
Speaker 1: He's like, I thought about whether I have any morrible responsibility,
Speaker 1: and I decided no, No am I a SOULI school? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um so, Cherry, the young woman who's uh sister got
Speaker 1: a sex change with Dr Brown, definitely considered him to
Speaker 1: be a dangerous kook, but acknowledged he gives you a
Speaker 1: vagina at a fair price. Competent doctor's charged twelve thousand
Speaker 1: to twenty tho dollars for a vagina. At the time,
Speaker 1: Brown's fees were reasonable enough that hundreds of women chose
Speaker 1: to gamble on him, in spite of the fact that
Speaker 1: his new nickname, Butcher Brown was by far the worst
Speaker 1: yet not as good as tabletop Brown. Not as good
Speaker 1: as tabletop Brown. Now, during my research, I came across
Speaker 1: a tremendous resource called the Digital Transgender Archive. This wonderful
Speaker 1: site includes pictures, articles, and scans of entire issues of
Speaker 1: various znes and newsletters distributed by the trans community, going
Speaker 1: you know, back like decades, and I came across one
Speaker 1: from nine called twenty Minutes and a few pages in
Speaker 1: it featured a cartoon drawn by someone named Radia. Uh
Speaker 1: and Sophie. You want to show her the political cartoon
Speaker 1: of Dr Brown. It's a little small, so creep on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah that chucks out. Yeah, it's just it's it's pretty
Speaker 1: much just a portrait. Yeah, he's dressed as like Jason
Speaker 1: from the Friday the Thirteenth movies, with a hockey mask
Speaker 1: covered in blood and a chainsaw of a patient on
Speaker 1: its back. Yeah. Um now. That cartoon was followed by
Speaker 1: a furious article about Dr Brown titled Mac the Knife
Speaker 1: and I'm going to quote from it now a patient
Speaker 1: no more like a victim of the nefarious Dr Brown
Speaker 1: presented herself with the aid of a companion at the
Speaker 1: emergency room of San Francisco General Hospital today November four,
Speaker 1: for life saving medical assistance. Just a week earlier, in Mexico,
Speaker 1: she had the misfortune to fall into the not so
Speaker 1: tender clutches of Dr Brown. By the time she arrived
Speaker 1: at s F General, she'd lost more than four pints
Speaker 1: of blood and was well down the road to being
Speaker 1: another and not so fortunate statistic of the infamous meat cutter.
Speaker 1: From information available, she's but one of ten recent victims
Speaker 1: of Brown's. For those of you contemplating surgery, don't go
Speaker 1: to Mexico for it, and above all, don't let Dr
Speaker 1: Brown do it. Admittedly, his price of three thousand dollars
Speaker 1: is attractive, but the pain, anguish, and post surgical complications
Speaker 1: are not worth the trivial amount of money saved. So
Speaker 1: twenty Minutes had written warnings about Dr Brown before, and
Speaker 1: he'd actually had someone from his office respond to them.
Speaker 1: Since his potential clients read this magazine, and since he
Speaker 1: knew no one from the a m A. Or law
Speaker 1: enforcement was reading trans community newsletters, he felt secure in
Speaker 1: just lying shamefully to these people to try to convince
Speaker 1: more of them to let him commit surgery on their groins.
Speaker 1: And here's his representatives response. Many of you have heard
Speaker 1: about doctor John Ronald Brown, m D, some of it positive,
Speaker 1: some negative. This letter is intended to set the record
Speaker 1: straight and to inform those interested in his work. It
Speaker 1: goes on to account Dr Brown's educational history all the
Speaker 1: different hospitals he worked at, notably leaving out his repeated
Speaker 1: failures to actually pass his surgical exams. Then it gives
Speaker 1: this justification for the fact that his clinic had to
Speaker 1: be in Mexico rather than the United States. Due to
Speaker 1: the temporary rivocation of his license to practice in California.
Speaker 1: His clinic has been moved to Plus, Mexico. He's currently
Speaker 1: preparing for reinstatement of his California license, but states that
Speaker 1: even when he is eventually vindicated, his practice will probably
Speaker 1: remain in Mexico for various reasons, especially the reduced problems
Speaker 1: of doing transsexual surgery, the reduced problems, meaning like the
Speaker 1: reduced laws governing what you can do to people you're
Speaker 1: performing surgery on now. In that letter, Dr Brown's representative
Speaker 1: also brags about a revolutionary new technique he developed, taking
Speaker 1: bowel tissue to make the new vaginal canal for his patients.
Speaker 1: That's ensuring them a self lubricating vagina. Twenty Minutes notes
Speaker 1: that as a result of his failure to actually do
Speaker 1: this competently, more than seventy of his patients had received
Speaker 1: permanent colostomies, and I found a quote from writer Dallas
Speaker 1: and Aenny on all this. In the nineteen nineties, Brown
Speaker 1: came to favor invasive surgery, in which you would aft
Speaker 1: the neo vagina to a section of resected colon. His
Speaker 1: results had never been good. The growing area of a
Speaker 1: Brown patient typically looked as if the penis had been
Speaker 1: split lengthwise and sutured to the growing with a simple
Speaker 1: hole between the split halves. Patients often wound up with colostomies.
Speaker 1: Several of Brown's girls dance topless, using scarves to conceal
Speaker 1: the bags attached to their sides. When he started going
Speaker 1: into the peritoneum. Things got really scary. Patients would return
Speaker 1: home smelling of rotting flesh. Often they would return to Brown,
Speaker 1: going again and again for revision, each time paying large
Speaker 1: sums of money. Many eventually wound up in emergency rooms,
Speaker 1: and I dare say some ended up dead. Now it's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine just how fucking horrifying receiving surgery under
Speaker 1: these conditions would have been. And there are very few
Speaker 1: first person accounts from Dr Brown's victims, and none that
Speaker 1: go into a tremendous amount of detail. I did find
Speaker 1: the experiences of one transwoman, Canary Cohn, who received her
Speaker 1: gender assignment surgery in Tijuana, and she went with a
Speaker 1: better doctor than Dr Brown, one of the better doctors
Speaker 1: in the area. So as I read this story, I
Speaker 1: want you to remember that what Brown patients would have
Speaker 1: woken up with was actually worse than this um. So
Speaker 1: this is like a better case scenario than Dr Brown,
Speaker 1: and it's still pretty fucking horrifying. Somebody, please please come here.
Speaker 1: I cried and reached for the button, keeping it in
Speaker 1: my hand. A peculiar wet feeling was gathering around my legs.
Speaker 1: At first, I was too frightened to peer under the sheets,
Speaker 1: but as the chill increased, I reached for the chain
Speaker 1: over my head. With the light on, I lifted the sheets.
Speaker 1: Then I panicked. The sheet under me was a pool
Speaker 1: of blood, and more was flowing from between my legs.
Speaker 1: I pressed the button again and again and began to
Speaker 1: scream for help, thinking about detaching myself from the bed,
Speaker 1: I propped myself on one arm, but then fainted and
Speaker 1: fell back. When I woke up some ten or fifteen
Speaker 1: minutes later, the blood had made its way down one
Speaker 1: side of the bed to the floor. I was weaker
Speaker 1: now and the pain didn't matter. I was bleeding to death. Sobbing,
Speaker 1: I began to pray aloud. Then I screamed again and
Speaker 1: again until my voice faded into hoarseness. Grabbing a book
Speaker 1: from the table, I tried to throw it through the window,
Speaker 1: but it fell from my fingers into the pool of blood.
Speaker 1: The chills had changed to small convulsions as I tried
Speaker 1: to calm myself. Bending my head, I looked once more
Speaker 1: at the side of the bed, half covered with my
Speaker 1: life's liquid. It looked pretty, somehow, red on white. I
Speaker 1: couldn't help thinking how ironic it was that I had
Speaker 1: we con saved all this time to pay for my
Speaker 1: own death. I would be my own executioner. And again,
Speaker 1: this is someone waking up in a clinic. So this
Speaker 1: is someone getting surgery from one of these doctors who
Speaker 1: actually does provide doctor aftercare. Dr Brown's patients typically woke
Speaker 1: up in hotels or cars undergoing the same thing, not
Speaker 1: attached to a bed, not in like obviously Canary eventually
Speaker 1: did get medical help, but just took a while for
Speaker 1: I think the clinic to realize what was going on.
Speaker 1: But what a nightmare. You're bleeding to death and you
Speaker 1: know it, and you paid for your surgery and it's
Speaker 1: just like sober, yeah, yeah. And in the case of
Speaker 1: Dr Brown's patients, this is happening like the back of
Speaker 1: a Ford Fiesta. Um, it's it's hard to imagine. So
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he had moved his practice to Mexico,
Speaker 1: presumably because he couldn't legally perform surgery in the US,
Speaker 1: Dr Brown still repeatedly performed surgeries in the United States
Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen eighties. In nineteen four, he was arrested
Speaker 1: for giving a presentation where he offered penile lengthening surgery
Speaker 1: to a group of men in San Diego. He only
Speaker 1: received a slap on the wrist for this and continued
Speaker 1: traveling around California to perform minor surgery. Cherry recalled He'd
Speaker 1: shoot silicone anywhere you wanted it for two hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: He do breast surgery for five d He'd do cheeks, breasts,
Speaker 1: and hips. After injections, you had to lie flat on
Speaker 1: your back for three days so the silicone wouldn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: He plugged the holes with crazy glue. He's a big
Speaker 1: fan of crazy glue. Yeah, I was saying, these are
Speaker 1: like the people that have been busted for doing this stuff.
Speaker 1: In Los Angeles County, one patient filed to complaint against
Speaker 1: Dr Brown for a breast enlargement procedure he had performed
Speaker 1: on her. It turns out that rather than performing any
Speaker 1: kind of surgery, he just shoved a needle into her
Speaker 1: breasts and injected them with raw silicone. He then closed
Speaker 1: the holes with crazy glue. Another patient, a genetic female
Speaker 1: named Mona, complained that after Dr Brown gave her a facelift,
Speaker 1: face peel, eye job, and breast implants, he did not
Speaker 1: do a good job. During the facelift, he severed a
Speaker 1: nerve in her face, leaving her with a permanent crooked
Speaker 1: smile her implants face, which caused the breasts to rot
Speaker 1: and leak a fluid her boyfriend described as smelling like
Speaker 1: cat piss. Then they fell off. To his credit, Dr
Speaker 1: Brown performed some aftercare for Mona. She recalled that at
Speaker 1: some one point he showed up to inject her with
Speaker 1: painkillers wearing only one shoe. Oh my god, Wow, what
Speaker 1: a good sign to not let someone doctor on you
Speaker 1: when they're wearing just one shoe, Like you're going to
Speaker 1: inject someone with medicine and you couldn't get your shoe
Speaker 1: game on point for the day. Let's just go ahead
Speaker 1: and extend it to the whole outfit. If you're missing
Speaker 1: anything from the outfit, you're you're you're on a time
Speaker 1: out for doctoring for the moment. It's like a guy
Speaker 1: trying to shoot you up with insulin while wearing board shorts.
Speaker 1: Like no, no, I'm gonna go ahead and pass. Yeah. Now.
Speaker 1: Despite all this horror, it was the Inside Edition episode
Speaker 1: that finally drew some serious legal attention to John Ronald Brown.
Speaker 1: The FBI went after him, confiscated his money, shut down
Speaker 1: his clinic and charged him with practicing medicine without a license.
Speaker 1: He had previously been convicted for prescribing narcotics with revoked
Speaker 1: license and practicing under a false name. With all of
Speaker 1: that on his record, you might expect him to serve
Speaker 1: some serious time. That seems like a significant crime, right,
Speaker 1: m hm. He was sentenced to three years in prison
Speaker 1: and served nineteen months. Oh my god, yeah, nineteen months. Um. So,
Speaker 1: for a brief period of time, about a year, he
Speaker 1: worked as a cab driver on Coronado Island, which is
Speaker 1: possibly the only job he ever did that he might
Speaker 1: have been qualified for. He remember, they said that he
Speaker 1: got a constantly rearended people and got into car accidents.
Speaker 1: He actually went into the only other profession he could
Speaker 1: kill people. Like, that's not okay, that's not okay. You're
Speaker 1: absolutely right, Like he picked the one other job that
Speaker 1: he was dangerously bad at. I mean, we really could
Speaker 1: he We have gotten him to be like a Walmart Greater,
Speaker 1: just something where you're just harmless, you know. I feel
Speaker 1: like as a Walmart Greater, he would have gotten people
Speaker 1: killed just directing them to the wrong aisles, just throwing
Speaker 1: peanuts at kids with allergies. So Paulciati interviewed John about
Speaker 1: this period in his life, and Dr Brown insisted that
Speaker 1: the time in jail didn't deter him from his chosen calling.
Speaker 1: In the least. He said that he decided long ago
Speaker 1: to rebel against what he saw as the unjust medical establishment.
Speaker 1: I didn't like some of the things that organized doctors
Speaker 1: were doing, so I rebelled. Later, I didn't like what
Speaker 1: the government was doing in support of the medical organizations,
Speaker 1: so I rebelled. I chose to ignore the laws. He's
Speaker 1: a hero. He's a hero, Sophia. After a year, John
Speaker 1: was able to put together enough money to reopen his
Speaker 1: surgical practice in Tijuana. For a couple of years, he
Speaker 1: continued chopping into whoever would pay, primarily servicing the trans community,
Speaker 1: if you can call what he did a service. By night,
Speaker 1: he had carried out an estimated six hundred gender reassignment surgeries.
Speaker 1: That is the year he met Greg Firth. Now Greg
Speaker 1: was a psychlo No Greg with two gs three. Actually
Speaker 1: this is even worse than the regular Greg. There are
Speaker 1: five letters in Greg's first name, and three of them
Speaker 1: are G. It's a it's a disaster, It's gonna not end. Well,
Speaker 1: it does not now. Greg was a psychoanalyst from New
Speaker 1: York City. In addition to being a well respected mental
Speaker 1: health expert, Firth also suffered from a rare condition known
Speaker 1: as a potemnophilia. Have you ever heard of epotemnophilia? The
Speaker 1: person who coined that term in ninety seven, John Money,
Speaker 1: described it as an extreme sexual fetish wherein victims desire
Speaker 1: to sever their own limbs so they can have better orgasms.
Speaker 1: What yeah, wait, why DoD, Why do the limbs get
Speaker 1: in the way of a good orgasm? That's a great question.
Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about appet nephelia a little bit
Speaker 1: more in a minute. But you know what won't sever
Speaker 1: your limbs to give you better orgasm? Sofia the following
Speaker 1: goods and services. That's exactly right. That is the guarantee
Speaker 1: we make is that none of these products will sever
Speaker 1: your limbs in the pursuit of an orgasm. We're back
Speaker 1: and we're talking about how there should be a legal
Speaker 1: limit on the number of g's allowed in a name.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to put it. I'm gonna say zero.
Speaker 1: All rights are just ad That's what I'm saying. They're
Speaker 1: just raised now yeah exactly name yeah, just reth deal
Speaker 1: with it. So um Apa tem nephelia is usually described
Speaker 1: as an extreme sexual fetish about, you know, wanting to
Speaker 1: sever your own limb for a better orgasm. That is
Speaker 1: not how many sufferers of describe it. What are they say? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Firth and a lot of other people with it argue
Speaker 1: that the sexual angle is either minor or non existent
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. Um Greg doesn't even like
Speaker 1: the term appotem nephelia. He prefers body identity transfer. Um
Speaker 1: One sufferer I found interviewed in Salon described the way
Speaker 1: her condition made her feel in this way quote, For me,
Speaker 1: sexuality is being comfortable with my body inside. I feel
Speaker 1: my legs don't belong to me and they shouldn't be there.
Speaker 1: There's just an overwhelming sense of despair. Sometimes I don't
Speaker 1: want to die, but there are times I don't want
Speaker 1: to keep living in a body that doesn't feel like mine.
Speaker 1: Now First seems to agree with this more or less,
Speaker 1: insisting in interviews it's not about sex, it's not about
Speaker 1: getting off with someone. This is about becoming able bodied.
Speaker 1: So these the people suffering this will claim that like
Speaker 1: it's not I don't want to get it removed because
Speaker 1: I think it's hot to have to lose a limb.
Speaker 1: I feel like, this isn't my body part and I
Speaker 1: can't be comfortable in my own body while I have
Speaker 1: this armor leg because they're not an alien limb. But
Speaker 1: they're not capable of realizing that that's like good disorder,
Speaker 1: or are they. I think they are, But I think
Speaker 1: a lot of them would say that the treatment for
Speaker 1: the disorders to have the fucking leg removed or whatever. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to come down on this one way
Speaker 1: or the other. This is just what they will say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think before, but I'm like, yeah, And
Speaker 1: there are some people who definitely like there are amputation
Speaker 1: fetishists and stuff too. It's complicated, I think the I
Speaker 1: think some people will argue that folks like Greg just
Speaker 1: have an amputation fetish, and I think some sufferers of
Speaker 1: apotemnophelia will say it's not a fetish, it's like a
Speaker 1: body Dysmorpheus sort of thing. This is not my limb
Speaker 1: and I need it removed. And there are people who
Speaker 1: will be like, you're just saying that so you can
Speaker 1: try to get surgery because you think gets hot, Like,
Speaker 1: I really don't know. I'm not a fucking expert on anything.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't really matter though, but it makes
Speaker 1: me think of like anorexi or something. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're looking in the mirror and you see something that, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not it's not right. So you're like, no, I
Speaker 1: have to keep getting thinner. I'm not thin. It doesn't
Speaker 1: look right, like I can't. I'm not going to feel
Speaker 1: happy until them this then, But it's ultimately something that
Speaker 1: you know you recover from if you work on it.
Speaker 1: But I guess not. I don't know if it does
Speaker 1: it work like that for this, I have no idea. Um, well,
Speaker 1: well well I'll tell a little bit more and we'll
Speaker 1: see how we feel. Definitely, Greg actually does seem to
Speaker 1: have a bit of a recovery um. But yeah, we're
Speaker 1: building to that. So for years, Greg Firth has sought
Speaker 1: to have his legs surgically amputated um and there are
Speaker 1: some reputable surgeons who will do this for people with
Speaker 1: appa tim nephelia. Unfortunately, the one first tried to contract
Speaker 1: had to back out of doing the surgery after the
Speaker 1: public hospital he worked at rescinded his privileges due to
Speaker 1: bad publicity. They were actually protests in Scotland against voluntary
Speaker 1: amputation being legal at all. Um. And when this all
Speaker 1: blew up in the news, first doctor, the guy who
Speaker 1: tried to go with, complained that banning safe voluntary amputations
Speaker 1: and hospitals would only make the problem worse for his patients. Quote,
Speaker 1: they may take the law into their own hands. They
Speaker 1: may lie in a railway line and get run over
Speaker 1: by a train. They may use shotguns and their limbs off.
Speaker 1: They really are quite a desperate bunch, um. And the
Speaker 1: doctor's kind of proven right in some of this that,
Speaker 1: like you know, um, when someone has this kind of
Speaker 1: and it's tough because like a lot of doctors will
Speaker 1: say it's immoral fundamentally to do this because your job
Speaker 1: isn't to remove healthy tissue. I think other doctors might
Speaker 1: claim that, like, these people clearly aren't healthy, so you
Speaker 1: are helping them by doing this. It's a very complicated
Speaker 1: realm of medical ethics, um, or at least it seems
Speaker 1: complicated to me. Let us know, if you're a doctor,
Speaker 1: if you would remove someone's leg voluntarily, um, hit us
Speaker 1: up now. Once his plans to remove his leg legitimately
Speaker 1: with a real doctor in a real hospital fell through.
Speaker 1: Greg Firth started searching around for other places where he
Speaker 1: might have his alien leg removed. He read a story
Speaker 1: about an underground surgeon based out of San Diego. Despite
Speaker 1: the man's nickname Butcher Brown, that sounds good to me.
Speaker 1: That sounds good to me. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Greg decided this guy was a good person to reach
Speaker 1: out to, and Dr Brown was of course only too
Speaker 1: happy to help. Stacy running the d A who prosecuted
Speaker 1: Brown for what later happened, said he saw it is
Speaker 1: all the same. You cut off a boob, you cut
Speaker 1: off a penis, you cut off a leg. Sounds like
Speaker 1: a quality doctor. No difference between any of those things. Now.
Speaker 1: First negotiated with Dr Brown, and eventually they managed to
Speaker 1: settle on a price. He flew down to Mexico to
Speaker 1: finally lose his alien leg, but when he showed up
Speaker 1: at Brown's makeshift o R, the Mexican doctor Brown had
Speaker 1: hired to assist him realize that he was about to
Speaker 1: help sever a healthy leg. First recalled. He kept saying,
Speaker 1: this isn't right, you don't want this. Eventually, the Mexican
Speaker 1: doctor left the building, and Brown was forced to cancel
Speaker 1: the surgery, since it turns out amputating is a little
Speaker 1: bit of a two man job, so Brown agrees. Firsth
Speaker 1: flies down there and like, Brown gets an actual doctor
Speaker 1: in Mexico to help, and that guy is like he
Speaker 1: tricks him basically, and once he realizes what's happening, he's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this. This is fucked up. Um,
Speaker 1: so good on that doctor. Um. A year later, in
Speaker 1: John Brown called Firth with what he's called good news
Speaker 1: and bad news. The good news was he had yeah.
Speaker 1: The good news was he'd found another doctor. The bad
Speaker 1: news was it would now cost ten thous dollars. By
Speaker 1: this point, Firth was less convinced that he even wanted
Speaker 1: to commit to the surgery, but he decided to give
Speaker 1: it a shot. His good friend and fellow alien leg sufferer,
Speaker 1: Philip Bondy, scolded him for considering bailing on the opportunity,
Speaker 1: telling him, you'll regret this the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: How ironic, because you can't undo imputating your leg, but
Speaker 1: you can always undo having your leg. These people are
Speaker 1: not super rationally thinking about this problem. Um, I don't
Speaker 1: feel uh not to appa, timnophelia shame them. But I
Speaker 1: don't think you should do this, um, And I think
Speaker 1: given what happens next time, right, So first travel to
Speaker 1: San Diego and took a taxi to the clinic in Tijuana.
Speaker 1: By the time he arrived, conclude that his compulsion to
Speaker 1: have his leg removed was gone. He told Brown absolutely
Speaker 1: not um, and this would kind of tend to suggest that, like, actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have your legs removed. If this is the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that's seeing, how horrible the o R
Speaker 1: can like remove you of your compulsion. Um. Anyway, here's
Speaker 1: how l A Weekly sums up what happened next. Thinking
Speaker 1: perhaps that Firth was merely nervous, Brown offered him a sedative,
Speaker 1: but Firth testified he didn't want to be sedated. He
Speaker 1: wanted out of there. Before leaving, however, he suggested that
Speaker 1: what he thought would be a win win solution for everyone,
Speaker 1: even though he no longer wanted the operation himself, he
Speaker 1: knew someone else who did. Maybe we could switch it around,
Speaker 1: said Firth, Philip could take my place. And it turned
Speaker 1: out that Philip Bundy's apotem nephelia was much stronger than
Speaker 1: the Firth's. He flew right to Mexico and on May ninth,
Speaker 1: or John Brown severed his leg. Normally, surgery like this
Speaker 1: would be an impatient procedure. You would, you would not
Speaker 1: want to. But if you know John Ronald Brown, you
Speaker 1: know he doesn't do inpatient procedures. Instead, he drove the
Speaker 1: freshly amputated Philip Bondi fifteen miles into the desert, where
Speaker 1: Dr Brown tossed his leg out of the car to
Speaker 1: be eaten by coyotes. Oh my god, why was that
Speaker 1: his first idea? How is the coyotes the first idea
Speaker 1: you have for getting rid of a leg? Because he
Speaker 1: has John Ronald fucking Brown. That is crazy. Nurse coyotes
Speaker 1: will be assisting in the procedure. Oh my god. That crazy.
Speaker 1: Their medical coyotes, Oh my god. Those are probably the
Speaker 1: only people that worked in this clinic that actually were there. Yes,
Speaker 1: the most competent medical professionals. And you know what, the
Speaker 1: coyotes did their job properly. They were the most ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: competent people. Yeah. Now, after throwing his patient's leg out
Speaker 1: of a car window, John Brown drove his patient into
Speaker 1: California to a holiday inn, gave him a ten minute
Speaker 1: lesson in walking with crutches and drove off into the
Speaker 1: sunset to count his money. Oh my god, oh god,
Speaker 1: it's a nightmare. Two days later, Greg Firth went to
Speaker 1: check up on his friend in the Holiday Inn and
Speaker 1: found him dead. An autopsy revealed that gas Gang Green
Speaker 1: from an improperly sterilized leg stump, had been the culprit.
Speaker 1: Philip's death would have been an agonizing, almost unimaginably painful affair.
Speaker 1: This was the case that finally made the law treat
Speaker 1: Dr John Brown as the minister society that he so
Speaker 1: clearly was. It's telling that he had to finally kill
Speaker 1: a straight man before this happened. And I'm not just
Speaker 1: saying that to score woke points. Um. After the police started, Yeah,
Speaker 1: after the police started digging into Dr Brown, the detective
Speaker 1: in charge of the case made a point of looking
Speaker 1: into some of Brown's other patients. And I'm gonna quote
Speaker 1: Pulciotti with The l A Weekly again. When d A
Speaker 1: investigator Basinski, a tall, outgoing former cop with a shaved
Speaker 1: head and a big gray mustache, began calling on the
Speaker 1: people on Brown's patient lists, a lot of them just
Speaker 1: hung up on him. Some more hookers, he said. Some
Speaker 1: thought they were in trouble, some just didn't like the police.
Speaker 1: I called one woman, and an older woman answered, why
Speaker 1: do you want my son? She said. He committed suicide
Speaker 1: two weeks ago. As Basinski later learned, Christina, formerly known
Speaker 1: as Eddie, had mortgaged her house to pay for a
Speaker 1: total of tin surgeries by Brown, but, according to legal
Speaker 1: documents followed by running, the skin graphs that Brown used
Speaker 1: to line Christina's vaginal walls were so thin that they
Speaker 1: tore during intercourse. When Brown removed Christina's lower ribs to
Speaker 1: give her a narrower and more feminine waiste, she subsequently
Speaker 1: developed an abscess as big as a basketball. Christina's nose
Speaker 1: job turned out so poorly that she ended up with
Speaker 1: different sized nostrils, one of which turned up like that
Speaker 1: of a pig. Christina complained to Brown that he'd made
Speaker 1: her vaginal entrance too small, but when Brown enlarged it,
Speaker 1: Christina felt he'd ruined her. Today, Brown says he feels
Speaker 1: badly that he didn't better explain the procedure to Christina,
Speaker 1: but when he called to tell her he was refunding
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars her mother told him that her son
Speaker 1: had just hanged himself in the garage. According to Running,
Speaker 1: Brown took the news quite calmly, noting merely that transsexuals
Speaker 1: had a high suicide rate. And I should note I'm
Speaker 1: reading a quote from an article there Sciatti consistently correctly
Speaker 1: genders Christina Christina's mother. Yeah, those are her quotes on
Speaker 1: the matter though. Um, yeah, so the up it's also
Speaker 1: super fucked up, also removing the ribs, like, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: not okay, I mean, and it's kind of buried a
Speaker 1: little bit. But the most fucked up thing there is
Speaker 1: that when Dr Brown learns that one of his patients
Speaker 1: has killed herself, doesn't care. He's just like a lot
Speaker 1: of my patients killed themselves. Actually it happens constantly. Um,
Speaker 1: it's amazingly terrible. Uh. And it it's it goes to
Speaker 1: show that like John is usually shown as like having
Speaker 1: killed one person Bundy, but he killed a lot of people.
Speaker 1: They just the law didn't care about them. Um, and
Speaker 1: oftentimes is that story shows their pair didn't either. And
Speaker 1: also just like the fear of whoever, the fear of
Speaker 1: whoever it is calling and checking on you means like
Speaker 1: you're not really getting the full information anyway. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: because like a lot of these patients were sex workers
Speaker 1: and they're not going to talk to a fucking copy
Speaker 1: even if the cop legitimately cares about what's being done
Speaker 1: to them, Like it doesn't matter. Um So, Dr Brown
Speaker 1: was arrested and police searched a Sandy Cedro apartment. They
Speaker 1: found bloody shoes and pillows, used needles, vials of silicone,
Speaker 1: dozens of empty tubes of crazy glue, bloody towel soaking
Speaker 1: in bleach, and dozens of returned advertising brochures for his
Speaker 1: horrible clinic. One of the brochures read as follows, Oh boys,
Speaker 1: is going to be unpleasant to read. The prettiest pussies
Speaker 1: are John Brown pussies. The happiest patients are John Brown
Speaker 1: patients because number one each has a sensitive clit. Number
Speaker 1: two all get orgasms. Number three careful skin draping gives
Speaker 1: a natural appearance. Number four men love the pretty pussies
Speaker 1: and the sexy response Yeah obviously not true. Yes, horrible
Speaker 1: horrible eyes now also found in Dr Brown's apartment where
Speaker 1: videotapes of the Bad Doctor's operations. These videos were given
Speaker 1: names that reflect the level of professionalism I think we've
Speaker 1: all come to expect from John Brown. I'm trying not
Speaker 1: to laugh, but it's It's like one was titled Jack
Speaker 1: has a new piss hole behind his balls. Um again,
Speaker 1: this is how the doctor labeled his surgery tapes. Um yeah.
Speaker 1: While bizarre, that video was not what hit prosecutors the
Speaker 1: hardest in brown stash. That came across a recorded sex
Speaker 1: change surgery which showed Brown using a scalpel so dull
Speaker 1: he had to use it like a saw, jerking it
Speaker 1: back and forth into the patient's flesh. Uh yeah. As
Speaker 1: the media's chief expert on table top Brown, pal Ciolo
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time talking to the detectives and
Speaker 1: prosecutors trying to put Brown away. They showed him some
Speaker 1: of these videos, and here's how he describes one. In
Speaker 1: the video's opening shot, which is reminiscent of that famous
Speaker 1: scene from The Crying Game, an attractive Asian girl and
Speaker 1: the soon to be Las Vegas stripper is shown standing
Speaker 1: naked from the waist up, quietly chatting with Brown, who
Speaker 1: is off camera. She has nicely formed breasts and abundant
Speaker 1: black hair that cascades down her shoulders. Then slowly, the
Speaker 1: camera moves down her body and suddenly you realize she
Speaker 1: has a penis. When the actual surgery starts, I find
Speaker 1: it so unsettling that I have to turn off the tape.
Speaker 1: All the men had the same reactions as running. The
Speaker 1: judge asked, do I have to watch this video? I said, well, yes,
Speaker 1: you do. You're the judge. Yeah, so yeah, I you know,
Speaker 1: part of me is like I I kind of like
Speaker 1: running here because he's like, yeah, you have to watch this.
Speaker 1: You have to know what this guy did to properly
Speaker 1: sentence him, and like just because it's gross, Uh, you
Speaker 1: don't get to not look at it. You would look
Speaker 1: at photos of a murder, and that's what this guy did.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna watch the smoking videos. Like. I respect
Speaker 1: that a lot. Um, you know what. I also respect
Speaker 1: Sophia Goods and Services, the products and services that support
Speaker 1: this show. We're back so um. Apparently Brown had intended
Speaker 1: that tape and a lot of the other tapes to
Speaker 1: be like advertising and training videos. Uh. The second scene
Speaker 1: in that tape we just described shows the doctor sitting
Speaker 1: in a chair wearing a white coat and explaining the
Speaker 1: upcoming operation to the camera. Uh, he has a microphone
Speaker 1: and his hand is kind of shaking, says running. You
Speaker 1: see him reach up and grab his hand and this
Speaker 1: is his dominant hand, the one he operates with. He
Speaker 1: holds up crew drawings ripped out of a spiral notebook.
Speaker 1: He says, this is the corporate of the corporate. He
Speaker 1: stumped on the word. He finally says it the copora cavanosa,
Speaker 1: the spongey tissue on the other side of the penis.
Speaker 1: He goes off in this vein. You can see him
Speaker 1: waving the cameraman off when he loses a thought. The
Speaker 1: tape was so crude you could hear dogs barking during
Speaker 1: the surgery and music playing. The scrotal skin was lying
Speaker 1: on a board. It had pushpins in it. It was
Speaker 1: so dirty and dried out it looked like it had
Speaker 1: been run over by a tire. Yeah. The prosecution's chief
Speaker 1: witness was a young trans woman named Camille. She was
Speaker 1: one of the only victims of Dr Brown who was
Speaker 1: willing to testify in court. Prior to her surgery, Camille
Speaker 1: had been an insurance underwriter. She claims Dr Brown botched
Speaker 1: her surgery so badly that she was basically unemployable now
Speaker 1: her surgery went down in November n Quote, he gave
Speaker 1: me an epidural. I woke up ten minutes prior to
Speaker 1: the end of the operation. We started talking. Brown said,
Speaker 1: we're almost done. I wasn't scared. I was happy as hell.
Speaker 1: I was finally getting what I wanted. When you are
Speaker 1: climbing Mount Everest, you don't worry about a little frostbite
Speaker 1: on the top. But after the surgery was complete, Camille
Speaker 1: started having difficulty with her recovery. She developed a recto
Speaker 1: of vaginal fistula, which caused her feces to flow into
Speaker 1: her new vagina. This was the result of Dr Brown
Speaker 1: experimenting with his technique of using bowel tissue to create
Speaker 1: vaginal walls. She said, quote, my bladder was block, my
Speaker 1: limph glands swelled up, and my skin turned yellow. Black
Speaker 1: stuff was pouring out of my lungs. All my systems
Speaker 1: were shutting down. All he would have to do is
Speaker 1: take one breath and let go. The fact that Camille
Speaker 1: survived is almost miraculous, and her testimony helped to finally
Speaker 1: put but Your Brown away for good. He was convicted
Speaker 1: by unanimous decision and sentenced to fifteen years in prison.
Speaker 1: He expressed no remorse or even real understanding that he
Speaker 1: had committed horrific acts that had permanently disfigured and in
Speaker 1: many cases, ruined, the lives of human beings. Pal Ciolo
Speaker 1: talked to Brown several times in prison via collect call.
Speaker 1: In their last conversations, Brown expressed that his entire career
Speaker 1: was part of God's plan. He had called upon John
Speaker 1: Ronald Brown to help the transgender community, and next, Brown
Speaker 1: believed God had called upon him to invent a hyper
Speaker 1: thermia chamber that would cure cancer, AIDS and genital herpes.
Speaker 1: Brown described this as I'm sorry, like the other h
Speaker 1: that seems telling, that seems like he had herpies. He's like,
Speaker 1: the other two are for humanity, last ones for Papa.
Speaker 1: This one's for Dr Brown. That's what it sounds like,
Speaker 1: is you don't go cancer AIDS, harpies in the same
Speaker 1: three equally serious. Seriously, that's amazing. Yeah. Now. Brown described
Speaker 1: this as using a chamber with an ivy drip that
Speaker 1: would spray a patient with hot water to cause a
Speaker 1: healing fever. Uh. And in addition to this, Dr Brown
Speaker 1: claimed to have developed a prototype asphalt removal machine, an
Speaker 1: attachment for trailers that would make them more aerodynamic, in
Speaker 1: a book that would provide a full explanation for the
Speaker 1: movement of tectonic plates. He had a lot of book ideas,
Speaker 1: including an autobiography about his medical career and a book
Speaker 1: that would prove the existence of God. Tragically, John Ronald Brown, Yeah,
Speaker 1: was taken away from us too soon to finish any
Speaker 1: of these projects. In two thousand ten, just shot It
Speaker 1: was eighty eight birthday. He died painfully of pneumonia in prison.
Speaker 1: Oh well that's a silver lining painfully. Yeah, it's a story. Yeah, painfully.
Speaker 1: It was a horrible death. Uh, he did not get
Speaker 1: what he deserved. No, he absolutely did not. And on
Speaker 1: that note, yeah, well, Sophia, what would you do if
Speaker 1: you had a leg that you hated and desperately wanted
Speaker 1: removed because you felt like it was an alien limb? Like,
Speaker 1: what do you do? I think you go to therapy
Speaker 1: and I don't know, try to work on it. I
Speaker 1: don't really know. See, I was going to go with shotgun,
Speaker 1: but yeah, therapy is probably better. I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: I feel like depression in no way is the same
Speaker 1: as this, but it's like depression makes sense. You know,
Speaker 1: makes you want to kill yourself. And if someone was
Speaker 1: just like, okay, here's a gun, I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's not helping me. You know, probably just talked me
Speaker 1: out of wanting to die. Yeah, that's yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: know much about APATM nephelia, but it does sound like
Speaker 1: a thing. I don't know, Like if that one guy changed,
Speaker 1: then it's possible, right it is, but maybe he wasn't
Speaker 1: as serious about it. I don't know, Like the doctor,
Speaker 1: it's all the spectrum, right, you can probably be really
Speaker 1: wanting your leg off and just a little bit wanting
Speaker 1: it off. I don't know the doctor who, like the
Speaker 1: legit doctor who had performed some of those surgeries and
Speaker 1: then lost his operating privileges, Like there's a like he
Speaker 1: he didn't make a bad point where he was like, look,
Speaker 1: some people are going to do this, and as long
Speaker 1: as you make sure you're only performing surgery on the
Speaker 1: ones who are like otherwise going to go blow their
Speaker 1: own legs off or lay down on a train track, like,
Speaker 1: you're reducing harm. And I that's that There is an
Speaker 1: argument to make, not that it's a bad argument, it's
Speaker 1: just that, uh, you can try to guess who the
Speaker 1: people are that are going to try it anyways, and
Speaker 1: you can be wrong, and you know, there's really no
Speaker 1: good answer. If you were wrong one way, people are
Speaker 1: going to kill themselves or maim themselves on their own.
Speaker 1: But if they come to you and you do it
Speaker 1: every time, then there's no chance of them ever psychologically recovering.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what the answer is there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't either, because it's one of those things where
Speaker 1: clearly I think if Firth had been allowed to perform
Speaker 1: or to to undergo the surgery, he clearly didn't really
Speaker 1: want to lose his leg, and he probably would have
Speaker 1: wound up regretting it. Um. I think. But the other guy,
Speaker 1: the guy who died, Um, if he'd been able to
Speaker 1: go to a real doctor in a safe o R
Speaker 1: with a proper yeah, he'd still there's a good chance
Speaker 1: he would have lived. Um. So it is it is.
Speaker 1: There's not like an easy answer to this. I also
Speaker 1: don't know anything about the disease, like does it spread,
Speaker 1: Like after you get your one leg taken care of,
Speaker 1: is it possible that you'll be like, oh, well, now
Speaker 1: this leg is the alien and I need to get
Speaker 1: this off and then you just keep going, how does
Speaker 1: it work? Because you can get addicted to plastic surgery,
Speaker 1: you can probably get addicted to this too, can't you?
Speaker 1: Who know? You know, I assume, I assume you can.
Speaker 1: I do think it's a bit different than that, just because,
Speaker 1: like I think it's very focused. It tends to be
Speaker 1: with these people like they're they're obsessed with this one
Speaker 1: limb um. But you know, I'm not. Uh, I'm not
Speaker 1: an expert on it. Um. It's certainly a pain a
Speaker 1: complicated tail. Yes, as is the tale of John Brown.
Speaker 1: What are you distracted by? What are you doing? The
Speaker 1: bad John Brown? I'm trying to like, there's this screeching
Speaker 1: noise coming over repeatedly the line, and I'm trying not
Speaker 1: to be taken aback by it because it's horrible. Oh
Speaker 1: that's my parent. I'm so sorry. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: It sounds like somebody is like fucking an old television. Um. Yeah, okay, okay, um,
Speaker 1: which are yeah? So it just sounds like you're there
Speaker 1: is doctor John Ronald Brown. Um. It was a fun.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things about researching this was just
Speaker 1: because I read. I had to read a lot of
Speaker 1: old articles and documents dealing with the trans community is
Speaker 1: like kind of experiencing the use of terminology and what's
Speaker 1: okay evolve over the course of a couple of decades.
Speaker 1: That was really interesting. UM, and I do recommend the
Speaker 1: Digital Transgender Archive UM, which is like a really precious
Speaker 1: source of You could kind of see it as an
Speaker 1: attempt to make sure that like, no matter what happens,
Speaker 1: what happens with the Magnus Hirschfeld's library doesn't happen again,
Speaker 1: that these um, these historical documents of this community taking
Speaker 1: care of itself and defending itself through the decades when
Speaker 1: no one else gave a shit about them. UM, that
Speaker 1: that doesn't get lost. It's a really um precious source
Speaker 1: and uh, I found it fascinating, So I recommend given
Speaker 1: that a ready read cool. Great yep, Well, Sophia, you
Speaker 1: got any plug bubles you wanna you wanna drop down
Speaker 1: in the old P zone? What's the P zone? That's
Speaker 1: the plug zone, that's what it sounds like. All right,
Speaker 1: my club, my plug holes are. You can find me
Speaker 1: at this ifia on Twitter and Instagram. That's th h
Speaker 1: E s O f I y A and you can
Speaker 1: catch me with miles Gray on our podcast for twenty
Speaker 1: Day Fiance Weekly. It's super fun. It's a game show
Speaker 1: recap show of ninety d fiance and it's ridiculous and
Speaker 1: we have sound effects. And you can catch me on
Speaker 1: my other podcast Private Parts and known about love and
Speaker 1: sex around the world. Well you can, you can. You
Speaker 1: can do that. You can catch me on my other
Speaker 1: podcast Worst Year Ever. You can catch me on this
Speaker 1: podcast every Tuesday and Thursday, except for the Tuesdays and
Speaker 1: Thursdays that I don't do this podcast. Um, and you
Speaker 1: can find love in your heart, I hope. If not, sorry,
Speaker 1: that's rough. That's the episode. M h m hm