WEBVTT - Ken Kwapis - Pt. 2 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.600 The Black Effect presents. I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either, 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.600 But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery. 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:12.119 Oh no, it's royalty, not despair. Beat out here and 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.960 every day in February, I will give you a black 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.959 history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.200 It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:24.680 I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.680 Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:34.840 just wherever you get your podcast from. Hello, Hello, Hi, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:36.680 Oh my god. I want to come through the screen 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:44.360 and hug you. Hey, everybody. Jessica's or here, also known 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.600 as Vanessa Abrahams on Gossip Grow. I am so excited 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:49.760 to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.199 XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.520 about Gossip Grow. I'll chat with some of the cast 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.400 crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:58.840 for you guys to go on this journey with me. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.600 All right, swick, I've played Chuck Bass, Is this Michelle Trachtenberg. 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.280 I'll never tell o. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson and I 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.679 played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and I played 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.120 Carter Bason. That was one of the reasons I liked 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.960 the character Jenny so much is that she was very relatable. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.360 The whole thing was such a choice for me to do, 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.440 and I was just so thankful that people responded the 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.039 way they did to what we were doing. This really 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.199 was just like wonderful. I like have like warm feelings inside. 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.400 I'm giving you air hugs. Listen to XO XO on 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.080 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:41.680 get your podcasts. We've all felt left out, and for 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.360 people who moved to this country, that feeling lasts more 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.920 than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.920 Belonging begins with us dot org. Brought to you by 0:01:50.920 --> 0:02:01.320 the Ad Council. I'm Ken Kapas. I am a director. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.720 I directed the pilot of the Office and many other episodes. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:16.040 Hello listeners, it is another day and that means it's 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:22.160 time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.600 I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:31.720 joined once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.639 round two of our conversation, and this time we really 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.280 dive straight into his search for the truth, because that's 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.040 what it was right, the lengths he took to make 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:51.240 sure that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.959 and that we as a cast felt like we really 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.960 were a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.200 just in awe of him. That being said, I do 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:07.040 want to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:12.079 some doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, season one, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.959 episode five. For those of you who don't know, he 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:19.040 said that I was so good and made so many 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.799 shots in a row that it had to have been 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:26.680 visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.600 that's hilarious, but I hate to break it to you. 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:36.400 I am just that good. But enough about me. I 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.160 could talk about me all day. But since we're talking 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.760 about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.760 owe so much of the office to his vision and 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.360 his talent, and we were so lucky to have him 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.200 on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:59.000 swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken koppas 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.680 Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak On 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:14.360 Bubble and Squeaker cookie every more left over from the 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:28.479 night before. Um, how do you feel I mean, because 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.760 you fully committed to the documentary concept, how do you 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.680 feel like that influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there. 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.000 I mean, there's a couple of things we did in 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.239 the pilot and and pretty much carried throughout the series. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.760 But one of them was is that the ideas that 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.320 the camera is actually not always in the right place 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.840 for the scene because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.040 sure what the scene is. So that occasionally if we 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.080 made a decision, like if if Steve's character makes and 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.480 entrance from his office, that the camera might be over 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.880 near the water cooler, the last place you would really 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.799 put the camera to catch it good, and then Steve 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.120 would say something which would catch our attention. We'd have 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.080 to whip pan over to find him, and ideally by 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.400 the time we found him, he's finished saying whatever he 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.760 had to say, so that we end up landing on 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.040 him for a bit of dead air. That to me, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.880 was one of the key strategies in how we we shot. 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.960 So the pilot in particular has these kind of wonderfully long, 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.680 weird pauses, and part of that is due to the 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.240 cinema verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.200 the production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.520 had discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.600 to the people at the production meeting, which includes all 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.160 the you know, the heads of the different departments make 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:55.120 a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, that things that in any 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.560 other show would get them fired are encouraged in this 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.040 of So, for instance, if you are a camera operator 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.920 and you pan past the subject and then have to 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:11.440 like sort of backtrack rather you know sloppily, that's acceptable 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.600 and actually not acceptable, it's good. So I think that 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.920 all of those things. We've never talked about it, but 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.960 hopefully what it did for the cast is make everyone 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.960 feel like they were on all the time. You know, 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.640 that wasn't my shot, your shot. It wasn't like, you know, 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.840 nobody knew when they might be the subject of the scene. Well, 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.200 and the other thing that you did. You know, traditionally 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.000 you have marks on the floor that tell the actors 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.120 where to go, and on the office. There were no marks. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.240 There were no marks, and they're also in theory. There 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.640 was no regard for whether you were actually facing the 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.720 camera at certain times. You know, in a traditional you know, 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.440 multi camera comedy, everyone is presented in a very you know, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.080 frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.840 to do things like just kind of be you know, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.400 long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.240 see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.560 Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:13.960 more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.320 in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.480 the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.000 and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.240 and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.520 and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.200 something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.760 It's a very weird And so that's a scene where 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:43.640 those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.320 and we sort of hid behind a bar, not a bush, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.800 but like a plant, and you know, I think that 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:54.320 that was a good example of particularly for a character 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.920 like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.960 get to catch him without you know, him being aware 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.720 of it. And I think even at the beginning, as 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.840 I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.920 the lens and then a look at me standing next 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.600 to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.480 my brain now a little bit. I think the idea 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.920 is if he looked at the camera, he was sort 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.440 of it was something he was doing as if playing 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.200 to the camera. But if he looked at me, it 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.480 was because he wanted he was worried that the camera 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.680 caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.320 again I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.120 I want to skip ahead because you just brought this 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.720 up and kind of talk about probably the most famous 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:40.160 spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:45.319 nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.680 Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.240 to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.280 and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.560 before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um, 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.280 but talk to me a little bit about how that moment. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.439 What was that. My recollection was there was a lot 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.599 of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.640 them finally coming in it and doing that kiss. Well, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.760 there was a lot of conversation. I think that John 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:19.240 and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.880 they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.480 with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.040 went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:32.280 episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.360 we shot the kiss like at the very end of 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.640 the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.400 and I think the second last day of the schedule. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.360 The last day was the night work the you know, 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.520 the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.480 break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.000 in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.360 me that for the two actors, they were playing the 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.280 outcome before they played the scene. That was interesting, and 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.839 obviously they played both scenes well. But in terms of 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.280 the camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.360 you know, we wanted to a be hidden and we 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.439 wanted to find the furthest place to be and that 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.559 was that. You know, there's a little glass partition, you know, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.480 kind of near where the water cooler is and we 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.480 just hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.600 about the moment is the fact that if you shoot 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.480 a kiss, traditionally you want to be able to see 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:30.280 two faces. And I've you know, directed a few kisses 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.360 before and you and there's always like you Usually maybe 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.200 you'll put people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.080 to the camera, or you have separate shots. But this show, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.160 of course, that's not what we do. And I think 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.280 I don't remember if it was Greg's suggestion, or if 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.160 it if the actors came up with it or that, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.319 or maybe they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.439 reaction to the kiss. We see John and they kiss 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.560 and they break and I think they look at each 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.240 other for a beat and that's the end of the scene. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.880 But I think one of the things I've often thought 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.560 about with that shot is as an audience, you get 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:12.560 the pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.640 You you don't see her reactions, so you get to 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.719 as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.440 think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.840 But I think that's to me, the thing that's most 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.440 noteworthy about it is is is that the the person 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.880 who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face. 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.800 That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.400 is probably more Greg. I'll just side and note that. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.719 But you know the idea that because you guys were 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:48.079 so concerned about the reality and having it be in 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.160 a real place, happening at a real time, there was 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.839 an insistence that around the time the episode aired was 0:11:56.000 --> 0:12:00.839 when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.559 airing over the summer, than the documentary crew was on 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.200 vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.839 so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss. Where 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.079 in Friends, right, Ross and Rachel kiss and then when 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.800 they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss, 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:23.559 whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:28.280 so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.760 happened and why he laughed and the fallout from the kiss. 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.559 I just you know what, it's great. I've never and 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.600 and yes, I mean I think that's kudos to Greg 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:43.079 and writing staff because what's nice about that is information 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.959 is not served up to you. You have to kind of, 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.640 you know, discover what's going on, work for it, to 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.319 have to work for it. And I think it makes 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.160 you a more attentive viewer, and I think it's more 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.680 gratifying as an audience member. You're kind of thrown into 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.959 the deep bend. Wait, what's going on? Why is Jim? What? 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.040 What desk is? Where is he? You know, Stanford what? 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:03.920 You know? Like it's like you get to kind of 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.599 you get to kind of uh, you know, do a 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.360 little detective work as you're watching the episode. You know, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.360 one thing about that is it mimics what does happen 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.520 in our lives. We work with people and then they 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.439 go away, you know, they leave, they get another job, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.360 they get married. So I feel like, I mean, I 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.520 think I've never talked to Greg about it, but I 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.000 think he was constantly trying to make sure that you know, 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:38.240 there was, you know, a sense of the unexpected. It's 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.520 a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.440 partner built for hard times. That's indeed. If you're hiring, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.920 you need indeed because indeed is the hiring partner where 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.199 you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place, 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.760 and Indeed is the only job site where you're guaranteed 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.960 to find quality applications that meet your must have requirements, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.520 or else you don't pay. 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Mom is coming 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.480 out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.280 Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.600 the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.440 and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.680 the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.280 the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.200 has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.360 bag clothes and they're off. But looks like Mom doesn't 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.520 realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.040 the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a shame 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.360 that mug was a fan favorite. 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Find a forest near you and 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.760 start exploring and discover the forest dot Org Brought to 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.320 you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.360 How do you feel like the directing the show changed 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.520 as the show continued. Well, I mean I didn't work 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.399 on every season, and I took a long break, and 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.119 and I will say that whatever season I was working in, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.520 I guess I felt like I just naturally circled back 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:21.080 to those impulses that we had during the pilot. Not 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.920 because I was trying to, like, you know, make a 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.840 point like let's remember what we did, And it was 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.280 more like that's all I knew what to do, so 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.560 that even though occasionally I would watch an episode and 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:34.680 you know, maybe it was covered in a slightly more 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.200 conventional way than I might have, I think my instinct 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.080 when I you know, when I did direct was to 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.240 try and um, just kind of respect them the original 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.160 impulses and and again respect you know, Greg's original ideas 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.960 to making things a little dirtier a little bit. Yeah, 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.600 and and by the way, it's it's easy to forget 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.840 those things. You go away, you work on a different 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.080 show or a different film that has a whole other style, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.560 and then you have to come I can unlearn some things. 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.440 But I feel like, yeah, I mean, I definitely remember. 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.680 I mean along the way, like shooting the hundredth episode 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.200 Company Picnic, and there was a lot of it was 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.240 actually a complicated episode for a lot of reasons, including 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.080 I would just say to all writers, the writer producers 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:23.119 don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people are playing volleyball. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.159 If there's one thing I learned doing this show, no 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:34.800 volleyball while talking. But I remember just feeling like I 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.880 had to kind of again unlearned things I was doing 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.200 on different films and shows and kind of go back 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.159 to kind of the show's roots. So I hope that 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.280 that was a good thing for everyone to you know that, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.040 But you know, but that's that was just my natural 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:54.240 instinct was to kind of circle back to the beginning absolutely, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:19:00.959 Did you ever have conversations with a directors who are 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.000 about to work on who maybe hadn't been on the 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.960 show yet. Did you remember talking to anybody or get 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.960 offering any advice on that or well? Greg and I 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.640 did when he you know, reag and I definitely did. 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.280 The first episode Greg directed is one of the very 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.719 best ones. You know, Basketball, Yeah, it's fantastic. But by 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.240 the way, Brian, Okay, so I when I first saw 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.159 the cut of Basketball, I assumed that was a visual effect. No, 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.239 you're doing because how much there's like six in a row? 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.960 I think there's thirteen on the TVD can there is? 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.480 There were no in a row? And literally when I 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.400 saw it, I go how how? I literally my mind 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.199 went to how did they get the money for that effect? 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:51.359 They hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was me. 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.320 Um you know before when you were talking also about 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.480 about having to re remember things. You know, Kevin started 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.000 to into the lens quite a bit as the series 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.359 extended out, Um, when he had secrets, when he was 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.040 being childish about something. And I remember right when the 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.040 show ended and starting to work on other shows and going, 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.119 oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.720 I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.960 do that any on the other show. Come on, get 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.600 it together. Um, so yes, I know what you mean. 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:31.600 I definitely remember a feeling. Um, what's the right way 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.640 to put it, like, you know, like the prodigal son 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.680 or something, that I've been away and come back and 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.000 would I be accepted? Oh my gosh, it was truly. 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.119 I always remember. I always remember how happy everyone was 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:49.080 when you came back. I'm glad the but you know, 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.040 I it's funny. I was thinking about something I did 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.840 in the in the early episodes. I don't know if 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.600 other directors did it. I think it ended, but that 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.159 that was the idea that during our you know, talking 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.760 head interviews, that I used to sit next to the camera. Yes, 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.400 and I think that that was not something that other 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.320 directors did as much, or maybe not at all. I 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.320 never talked to anyone about it, but I remember like 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.119 coming back after a few seasons, and definitely at the 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.520 towards at the end to that, Like you know, Jenna 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.280 thought it was strange suddenly that I was there sitting 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:26.880 at the camera again because it had been a while 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:32.040 since I done. Yes, well, it's it's funny. I was 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:35.960 always I was of two minds because you're such an 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.800 open person and you and I believe that the energy 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:46.080 that you you give out, you're creating an environment, and 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.440 you're wanting as the interviewer to just be present for 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.359 the actor who's talking. So for me, if there was 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:58.520 someone there who was you know, I'm picking up, you know, 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.720 very concerned about the words, were thinking about something else 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.639 and looking down, that wasn't helpful to have that. It 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:07.600 was way easier for me to look at a mark 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:10.280 than to look at somebody who was doing something that 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.480 wasn't helpful to me. I know. There were also occasions, 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.760 especially with some of our writer directors um that could 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.879 not stop laughing. So it was way better for them 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.320 get them in the corner or in the other room, UM, 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.280 to be right there. I do remember at the beginning 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.760 of the series that one of the things, and I'm 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.600 not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer, 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.639 but I remember hoping that we could actually have a 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:42.240 conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.080 that was something you know, we did on occasion. And 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.960 again I make no claim of being able to improv 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:50.879 but it was like, what could I set up that 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.000 would kind of lead to the line, Yes, and that 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.080 that you know, but I do think after a while 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:58.800 that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.800 do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember, 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:03.560 by the way, when you were talking about being trapped 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.040 at work, and now I remember something Greg and I discussed, 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:10.600 and that was where those interviews would be shot. So 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.639 they're generally two places, and one angle, of course, is 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:19.640 each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.080 and the other places with your back to the wall 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:27.320 the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:30.320 he loved the idea that that frame would have a 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.159 little sliver of the window in it, but just a 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.680 little bit, because there's no reason to see that you 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.280 could get out. And those are and and I remember 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.479 that see all a lot of where John's John shots 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.800 are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this, 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:52.600 that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:57.320 getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:00.320 the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his sub text, 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.360 but that was Greg's idea that you know, I love 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.119 that that there was enough, there was something that objectively 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.000