Speaker 1: The Black Effect presents. I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either,
Speaker 1: But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's royalty, not despair. Beat out here and
Speaker 1: every day in February, I will give you a black
Speaker 1: history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either.
Speaker 1: It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So
Speaker 1: I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black
Speaker 1: Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: just wherever you get your podcast from. Hello, Hello, Hi,
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I want to come through the screen
Speaker 1: and hug you. Hey, everybody. Jessica's or here, also known
Speaker 1: as Vanessa Abrahams on Gossip Grow. I am so excited
Speaker 1: to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called
Speaker 1: XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all
Speaker 1: about Gossip Grow. I'll chat with some of the cast
Speaker 1: crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped
Speaker 1: for you guys to go on this journey with me.
Speaker 1: All right, swick, I've played Chuck Bass, Is this Michelle Trachtenberg.
Speaker 1: I'll never tell o. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson and I
Speaker 1: played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and I played
Speaker 1: Carter Bason. That was one of the reasons I liked
Speaker 1: the character Jenny so much is that she was very relatable.
Speaker 1: The whole thing was such a choice for me to do,
Speaker 1: and I was just so thankful that people responded the
Speaker 1: way they did to what we were doing. This really
Speaker 1: was just like wonderful. I like have like warm feelings inside.
Speaker 1: I'm giving you air hugs. Listen to XO XO on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. We've all felt left out, and for
Speaker 1: people who moved to this country, that feeling lasts more
Speaker 1: than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it
Speaker 1: Belonging begins with us dot org. Brought to you by
Speaker 1: the Ad Council. I'm Ken Kapas. I am a director.
Speaker 1: I directed the pilot of the Office and many other episodes.
Speaker 1: Hello listeners, it is another day and that means it's
Speaker 1: time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
Speaker 1: I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being
Speaker 1: joined once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for
Speaker 1: round two of our conversation, and this time we really
Speaker 1: dive straight into his search for the truth, because that's
Speaker 1: what it was right, the lengths he took to make
Speaker 1: sure that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised,
Speaker 1: and that we as a cast felt like we really
Speaker 1: were a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am
Speaker 1: just in awe of him. That being said, I do
Speaker 1: want to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed
Speaker 1: some doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, season one,
Speaker 1: episode five. For those of you who don't know, he
Speaker 1: said that I was so good and made so many
Speaker 1: shots in a row that it had to have been
Speaker 1: visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because
Speaker 1: that's hilarious, but I hate to break it to you.
Speaker 1: I am just that good. But enough about me. I
Speaker 1: could talk about me all day. But since we're talking
Speaker 1: about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We
Speaker 1: owe so much of the office to his vision and
Speaker 1: his talent, and we were so lucky to have him
Speaker 1: on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be
Speaker 1: swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken koppas
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak On
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeaker cookie every more left over from the
Speaker 1: night before. Um, how do you feel I mean, because
Speaker 1: you fully committed to the documentary concept, how do you
Speaker 1: feel like that influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a couple of things we did in
Speaker 1: the pilot and and pretty much carried throughout the series.
Speaker 1: But one of them was is that the ideas that
Speaker 1: the camera is actually not always in the right place
Speaker 1: for the scene because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what the scene is. So that occasionally if we
Speaker 1: made a decision, like if if Steve's character makes and
Speaker 1: entrance from his office, that the camera might be over
Speaker 1: near the water cooler, the last place you would really
Speaker 1: put the camera to catch it good, and then Steve
Speaker 1: would say something which would catch our attention. We'd have
Speaker 1: to whip pan over to find him, and ideally by
Speaker 1: the time we found him, he's finished saying whatever he
Speaker 1: had to say, so that we end up landing on
Speaker 1: him for a bit of dead air. That to me,
Speaker 1: was one of the key strategies in how we we shot.
Speaker 1: So the pilot in particular has these kind of wonderfully long,
Speaker 1: weird pauses, and part of that is due to the
Speaker 1: cinema verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held
Speaker 1: the production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I
Speaker 1: had discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced
Speaker 1: to the people at the production meeting, which includes all
Speaker 1: the you know, the heads of the different departments make
Speaker 1: a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, that things that in any
Speaker 1: other show would get them fired are encouraged in this
Speaker 1: of So, for instance, if you are a camera operator
Speaker 1: and you pan past the subject and then have to
Speaker 1: like sort of backtrack rather you know sloppily, that's acceptable
Speaker 1: and actually not acceptable, it's good. So I think that
Speaker 1: all of those things. We've never talked about it, but
Speaker 1: hopefully what it did for the cast is make everyone
Speaker 1: feel like they were on all the time. You know,
Speaker 1: that wasn't my shot, your shot. It wasn't like, you know,
Speaker 1: nobody knew when they might be the subject of the scene. Well,
Speaker 1: and the other thing that you did. You know, traditionally
Speaker 1: you have marks on the floor that tell the actors
Speaker 1: where to go, and on the office. There were no marks.
Speaker 1: There were no marks, and they're also in theory. There
Speaker 1: was no regard for whether you were actually facing the
Speaker 1: camera at certain times. You know, in a traditional you know,
Speaker 1: multi camera comedy, everyone is presented in a very you know,
Speaker 1: frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able
Speaker 1: to do things like just kind of be you know,
Speaker 1: long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite
Speaker 1: see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we
Speaker 1: Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were
Speaker 1: more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking
Speaker 1: in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards
Speaker 1: the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam
Speaker 1: and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk
Speaker 1: and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy
Speaker 1: and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says
Speaker 1: something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there.
Speaker 1: It's a very weird And so that's a scene where
Speaker 1: those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed,
Speaker 1: and we sort of hid behind a bar, not a bush,
Speaker 1: but like a plant, and you know, I think that
Speaker 1: that was a good example of particularly for a character
Speaker 1: like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we
Speaker 1: get to catch him without you know, him being aware
Speaker 1: of it. And I think even at the beginning, as
Speaker 1: I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at
Speaker 1: the lens and then a look at me standing next
Speaker 1: to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack
Speaker 1: my brain now a little bit. I think the idea
Speaker 1: is if he looked at the camera, he was sort
Speaker 1: of it was something he was doing as if playing
Speaker 1: to the camera. But if he looked at me, it
Speaker 1: was because he wanted he was worried that the camera
Speaker 1: caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And
Speaker 1: again I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: I want to skip ahead because you just brought this
Speaker 1: up and kind of talk about probably the most famous
Speaker 1: spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that
Speaker 1: nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled
Speaker 1: to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim
Speaker 1: and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out
Speaker 1: before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um,
Speaker 1: but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.
Speaker 1: What was that. My recollection was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of
Speaker 1: them finally coming in it and doing that kiss. Well,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of conversation. I think that John
Speaker 1: and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well,
Speaker 1: they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke
Speaker 1: with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I
Speaker 1: went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that
Speaker 1: episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that
Speaker 1: we shot the kiss like at the very end of
Speaker 1: the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at
Speaker 1: and I think the second last day of the schedule.
Speaker 1: The last day was the night work the you know,
Speaker 1: the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically
Speaker 1: break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back
Speaker 1: in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to
Speaker 1: me that for the two actors, they were playing the
Speaker 1: outcome before they played the scene. That was interesting, and
Speaker 1: obviously they played both scenes well. But in terms of
Speaker 1: the camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about,
Speaker 1: you know, we wanted to a be hidden and we
Speaker 1: wanted to find the furthest place to be and that
Speaker 1: was that. You know, there's a little glass partition, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of near where the water cooler is and we
Speaker 1: just hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing
Speaker 1: about the moment is the fact that if you shoot
Speaker 1: a kiss, traditionally you want to be able to see
Speaker 1: two faces. And I've you know, directed a few kisses
Speaker 1: before and you and there's always like you Usually maybe
Speaker 1: you'll put people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation
Speaker 1: to the camera, or you have separate shots. But this show,
Speaker 1: of course, that's not what we do. And I think
Speaker 1: I don't remember if it was Greg's suggestion, or if
Speaker 1: it if the actors came up with it or that,
Speaker 1: or maybe they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's
Speaker 1: reaction to the kiss. We see John and they kiss
Speaker 1: and they break and I think they look at each
Speaker 1: other for a beat and that's the end of the scene.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the things I've often thought
Speaker 1: about with that shot is as an audience, you get
Speaker 1: the pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.
Speaker 1: You you don't see her reactions, so you get to
Speaker 1: as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I
Speaker 1: think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple,
Speaker 1: But I think that's to me, the thing that's most
Speaker 1: noteworthy about it is is is that the the person
Speaker 1: who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this
Speaker 1: is probably more Greg. I'll just side and note that.
Speaker 1: But you know the idea that because you guys were
Speaker 1: so concerned about the reality and having it be in
Speaker 1: a real place, happening at a real time, there was
Speaker 1: an insistence that around the time the episode aired was
Speaker 1: when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes
Speaker 1: airing over the summer, than the documentary crew was on
Speaker 1: vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something
Speaker 1: so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss. Where
Speaker 1: in Friends, right, Ross and Rachel kiss and then when
Speaker 1: they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss,
Speaker 1: whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and
Speaker 1: so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what
Speaker 1: happened and why he laughed and the fallout from the kiss.
Speaker 1: I just you know what, it's great. I've never and
Speaker 1: and yes, I mean I think that's kudos to Greg
Speaker 1: and writing staff because what's nice about that is information
Speaker 1: is not served up to you. You have to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, discover what's going on, work for it, to
Speaker 1: have to work for it. And I think it makes
Speaker 1: you a more attentive viewer, and I think it's more
Speaker 1: gratifying as an audience member. You're kind of thrown into
Speaker 1: the deep bend. Wait, what's going on? Why is Jim? What?
Speaker 1: What desk is? Where is he? You know, Stanford what?
Speaker 1: You know? Like it's like you get to kind of
Speaker 1: you get to kind of uh, you know, do a
Speaker 1: little detective work as you're watching the episode. You know,
Speaker 1: one thing about that is it mimics what does happen
Speaker 1: in our lives. We work with people and then they
Speaker 1: go away, you know, they leave, they get another job,
Speaker 1: they get married. So I feel like, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think I've never talked to Greg about it, but I
Speaker 1: think he was constantly trying to make sure that you know,
Speaker 1: there was, you know, a sense of the unexpected. It's
Speaker 1: a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring
Speaker 1: partner built for hard times. That's indeed. If you're hiring,
Speaker 1: you need indeed because indeed is the hiring partner where
Speaker 1: you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place,
Speaker 1: and Indeed is the only job site where you're guaranteed
Speaker 1: to find quality applications that meet your must have requirements,
Speaker 1: or else you don't pay. Instead of spending hours on
Speaker 1: multiple job sites hoping to find candidates with the right skills,
Speaker 1: you need one hiring partner that can help you do
Speaker 1: it all. Indeed partners with you on every step of
Speaker 1: the hiring process. Find great talent through time saving tools
Speaker 1: like Indeed, instant match, assessments and virtual interviews. With instant Match,
Speaker 1: as soon as you sponsor a post, you get a
Speaker 1: short list of quality candidates with resumes on Indeed that
Speaker 1: match your job description, and you can invite them to
Speaker 1: apply right away. Plus, you only pay for quality applications
Speaker 1: that meet your must have requirements. Join more than three
Speaker 1: million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast.
Speaker 1: Start hiring right now with a seventy five dollar sponsored
Speaker 1: job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed dot
Speaker 1: com slash office deep dive offer valid through March thirty one.
Speaker 1: Go to Indeed dot Calm slash office deep dive to
Speaker 1: claim your seventy five dollar credit before marche Indeed dot
Speaker 1: com slash office deep dive. Terms and conditions apply. Need
Speaker 1: to hire you need indeed. And we're live here outside
Speaker 1: the Perez family home, just waiting for the And there
Speaker 1: they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming
Speaker 1: out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry.
Speaker 1: Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up
Speaker 1: the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers
Speaker 1: and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed
Speaker 1: the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now
Speaker 1: the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten,
Speaker 1: has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the
Speaker 1: bag clothes and they're off. But looks like Mom doesn't
Speaker 1: realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of
Speaker 1: the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a shame
Speaker 1: that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Speaker 1: Just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids
Speaker 1: are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Speaker 1: Learn more at n h t s A dot gov
Speaker 1: slash the Right Seat visits n dot gov slash the
Speaker 1: Right Seat brought to you by NITZA and the ad Council.
Speaker 1: Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic
Speaker 1: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You
Speaker 1: look and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face
Speaker 1: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They
Speaker 1: see treasuring pebbles, they see a windy path that could
Speaker 1: lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot Org Brought to
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
Speaker 1: How do you feel like the directing the show changed
Speaker 1: as the show continued. Well, I mean I didn't work
Speaker 1: on every season, and I took a long break, and
Speaker 1: and I will say that whatever season I was working in,
Speaker 1: I guess I felt like I just naturally circled back
Speaker 1: to those impulses that we had during the pilot. Not
Speaker 1: because I was trying to, like, you know, make a
Speaker 1: point like let's remember what we did, And it was
Speaker 1: more like that's all I knew what to do, so
Speaker 1: that even though occasionally I would watch an episode and
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it was covered in a slightly more
Speaker 1: conventional way than I might have, I think my instinct
Speaker 1: when I you know, when I did direct was to
Speaker 1: try and um, just kind of respect them the original
Speaker 1: impulses and and again respect you know, Greg's original ideas
Speaker 1: to making things a little dirtier a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and by the way, it's it's easy to forget
Speaker 1: those things. You go away, you work on a different
Speaker 1: show or a different film that has a whole other style,
Speaker 1: and then you have to come I can unlearn some things.
Speaker 1: But I feel like, yeah, I mean, I definitely remember.
Speaker 1: I mean along the way, like shooting the hundredth episode
Speaker 1: Company Picnic, and there was a lot of it was
Speaker 1: actually a complicated episode for a lot of reasons, including
Speaker 1: I would just say to all writers, the writer producers
Speaker 1: don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people are playing volleyball.
Speaker 1: If there's one thing I learned doing this show, no
Speaker 1: volleyball while talking. But I remember just feeling like I
Speaker 1: had to kind of again unlearned things I was doing
Speaker 1: on different films and shows and kind of go back
Speaker 1: to kind of the show's roots. So I hope that
Speaker 1: that was a good thing for everyone to you know that,
Speaker 1: But you know, but that's that was just my natural
Speaker 1: instinct was to kind of circle back to the beginning absolutely,
Speaker 1: Did you ever have conversations with a directors who are
Speaker 1: about to work on who maybe hadn't been on the
Speaker 1: show yet. Did you remember talking to anybody or get
Speaker 1: offering any advice on that or well? Greg and I
Speaker 1: did when he you know, reag and I definitely did.
Speaker 1: The first episode Greg directed is one of the very
Speaker 1: best ones. You know, Basketball, Yeah, it's fantastic. But by
Speaker 1: the way, Brian, Okay, so I when I first saw
Speaker 1: the cut of Basketball, I assumed that was a visual effect. No,
Speaker 1: you're doing because how much there's like six in a row?
Speaker 1: I think there's thirteen on the TVD can there is?
Speaker 1: There were no in a row? And literally when I
Speaker 1: saw it, I go how how? I literally my mind
Speaker 1: went to how did they get the money for that effect?
Speaker 1: They hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was me.
Speaker 1: Um you know before when you were talking also about
Speaker 1: about having to re remember things. You know, Kevin started
Speaker 1: to into the lens quite a bit as the series
Speaker 1: extended out, Um, when he had secrets, when he was
Speaker 1: being childish about something. And I remember right when the
Speaker 1: show ended and starting to work on other shows and going,
Speaker 1: oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am
Speaker 1: I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to
Speaker 1: do that any on the other show. Come on, get
Speaker 1: it together. Um, so yes, I know what you mean.
Speaker 1: I definitely remember a feeling. Um, what's the right way
Speaker 1: to put it, like, you know, like the prodigal son
Speaker 1: or something, that I've been away and come back and
Speaker 1: would I be accepted? Oh my gosh, it was truly.
Speaker 1: I always remember. I always remember how happy everyone was
Speaker 1: when you came back. I'm glad the but you know,
Speaker 1: I it's funny. I was thinking about something I did
Speaker 1: in the in the early episodes. I don't know if
Speaker 1: other directors did it. I think it ended, but that
Speaker 1: that was the idea that during our you know, talking
Speaker 1: head interviews, that I used to sit next to the camera. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I think that that was not something that other
Speaker 1: directors did as much, or maybe not at all. I
Speaker 1: never talked to anyone about it, but I remember like
Speaker 1: coming back after a few seasons, and definitely at the
Speaker 1: towards at the end to that, Like you know, Jenna
Speaker 1: thought it was strange suddenly that I was there sitting
Speaker 1: at the camera again because it had been a while
Speaker 1: since I done. Yes, well, it's it's funny. I was
Speaker 1: always I was of two minds because you're such an
Speaker 1: open person and you and I believe that the energy
Speaker 1: that you you give out, you're creating an environment, and
Speaker 1: you're wanting as the interviewer to just be present for
Speaker 1: the actor who's talking. So for me, if there was
Speaker 1: someone there who was you know, I'm picking up, you know,
Speaker 1: very concerned about the words, were thinking about something else
Speaker 1: and looking down, that wasn't helpful to have that. It
Speaker 1: was way easier for me to look at a mark
Speaker 1: than to look at somebody who was doing something that
Speaker 1: wasn't helpful to me. I know. There were also occasions,
Speaker 1: especially with some of our writer directors um that could
Speaker 1: not stop laughing. So it was way better for them
Speaker 1: get them in the corner or in the other room, UM,
Speaker 1: to be right there. I do remember at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the series that one of the things, and I'm
Speaker 1: not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer,
Speaker 1: but I remember hoping that we could actually have a
Speaker 1: conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And
Speaker 1: that was something you know, we did on occasion. And
Speaker 1: again I make no claim of being able to improv
Speaker 1: but it was like, what could I set up that
Speaker 1: would kind of lead to the line, Yes, and that
Speaker 1: that you know, but I do think after a while
Speaker 1: that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to
Speaker 1: do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember,
Speaker 1: by the way, when you were talking about being trapped
Speaker 1: at work, and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,
Speaker 1: and that was where those interviews would be shot. So
Speaker 1: they're generally two places, and one angle, of course, is
Speaker 1: each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them,
Speaker 1: and the other places with your back to the wall
Speaker 1: the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying
Speaker 1: he loved the idea that that frame would have a
Speaker 1: little sliver of the window in it, but just a
Speaker 1: little bit, because there's no reason to see that you
Speaker 1: could get out. And those are and and I remember
Speaker 1: that see all a lot of where John's John shots
Speaker 1: are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this,
Speaker 1: that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of
Speaker 1: getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was
Speaker 1: the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his sub text,
Speaker 1: but that was Greg's idea that you know, I love
Speaker 1: that that there was enough, there was something that objectively
Speaker 1: told the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know,
Speaker 1: whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you
Speaker 1: could only see the bullpen the office because that's where
Speaker 1: they were going to be for effort. Yes, I remember
Speaker 1: that that's actually and yet that angle on John only
Speaker 1: featured a little bit of that window. Exactly. How was
Speaker 1: shooting outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these
Speaker 1: physical barriers that exist within the office. How was moving
Speaker 1: outside as as we started to you know, especially after
Speaker 1: the first two seasons and going more to locations, did
Speaker 1: that create more issues to keep the style and the
Speaker 1: look of the show the same? Or let me I'll
Speaker 1: just speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because
Speaker 1: obviously we sure we shot on a real boat where
Speaker 1: were we can't long be Long Beach. And one of
Speaker 1: the things I loved is and I didn't choose the boat,
Speaker 1: Gregg chose the boat, but the boat for me was
Speaker 1: like very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was
Speaker 1: like just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean
Speaker 1: I felt like everything about that space was very tight, constricted.
Speaker 1: It was hard to shoot in its kind of again,
Speaker 1: it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on
Speaker 1: the water right, So in a funny way. I like
Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location
Speaker 1: and we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're on vacation for a fun night out and we're
Speaker 1: just actually in the office again. Um well, booze cruise.
Speaker 1: The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam.
Speaker 1: Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have
Speaker 1: to fight for that time of silence or I don't know,
Speaker 1: Just talk me through that a little bit, like the
Speaker 1: shooting of it and or the decision to allow it
Speaker 1: to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence
Speaker 1: was not something we planned obviously to the second, but
Speaker 1: I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that,
Speaker 1: you know, there were no rules about pace, and so
Speaker 1: it was not objectionable to you know, let the moment linger.
Speaker 1: I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is it. We've broken the record for
Speaker 1: longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly
Speaker 1: that it was that it felt very truthful. It could
Speaker 1: have been half that length. It didn't really matter. It
Speaker 1: was you know, it just felt very truthful. And I
Speaker 1: turned in my cut and it probably worked with Greg
Speaker 1: on the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know,
Speaker 1: fought to keep it in at that length. I only
Speaker 1: hope that by that point in the in the series
Speaker 1: it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear
Speaker 1: what we were doing, and what we were doing was compelling.
Speaker 1: For me. It's that classic thing of you know, if
Speaker 1: you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the time passing.
Speaker 1: You know, you're just you're involved, you know. And and
Speaker 1: and for those two actors, again, they were just so
Speaker 1: invested in that moment. I don't think they had a
Speaker 1: clue that they were, you know, stretching the limits of
Speaker 1: what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right. Maybe they were,
Speaker 1: Maybe they were. Hi. I'm Glory Adam, host of Well
Speaker 1: Read Black Girl. Each week, I sit in close conversation
Speaker 1: with one of my favorite authors of color and share
Speaker 1: stories about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
Speaker 1: and navigated the publishing world, and composed some of the
Speaker 1: most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey
Speaker 1: together through the cultural moment where our culture and literature
Speaker 1: collide and pay homage to the women whose books we
Speaker 1: grew up reading. And of course I check in with
Speaker 1: members of the Well Read Black Girl book Club. It's
Speaker 1: a literary kickback you never knew you needed, and you're
Speaker 1: all invited to join the club. So tell your friends
Speaker 1: to tell their friends so we can be friends who
Speaker 1: love books. Listen to Well Read Black Girl on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. From the creator of The Bright Sessions, comes
Speaker 1: a new fiction podcast for all ages. Jump back to
Speaker 1: and follow maxim Miles as she starts high school in
Speaker 1: the picturess town of Hastings, New Hampshire. Fall is the
Speaker 1: season in which this small town shines apple cider, pumpkin
Speaker 1: patches farmers markets. It's idyllic for adults and boring for Max,
Speaker 1: But suddenly Max's school year starts to look a bit
Speaker 1: more interesting when a fellow student vanishes. With the help
Speaker 1: of her Misinthropp, the classmate Ross, Max starts to look
Speaker 1: into the disappearance. Her investigation draws her deep into the
Speaker 1: dark woods around Hastings, and even deeper into the secrets
Speaker 1: and lies. The course of the veins of this sleepy town,
Speaker 1: This New y A mystery from writer director Lauren Chippen,
Speaker 1: is an audio drama with heart and wit that involves
Speaker 1: the audience in a way no fiction podcast ever has.
Speaker 1: Listen to Maxi Miles and the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. If
Speaker 1: I could be you and you could be me for
Speaker 1: just one hour, if you could find a way to
Speaker 1: get inside each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes,
Speaker 1: Waco mile in my shoes, walcome mile in my mind shoes.
Speaker 1: We've all felt left out, and for some that feeling
Speaker 1: lasts more than a moment. We can change that, Learn
Speaker 1: how it belonging. Begins of us dot org. Brought to
Speaker 1: you by the ad Council. Welcome out in the Shop.
Speaker 1: So Greg approached you about coming back for the finale,
Speaker 1: or he asked you, or how did that come about?
Speaker 1: He asked me to come back for the finale. It
Speaker 1: had been two or three seasons since I worked on
Speaker 1: the show, but I think Greg wanted to create a
Speaker 1: sense of coming full circle and returning to the show's origins.
Speaker 1: And I also was a little daunted by the fact
Speaker 1: that and this is a good thing that so many
Speaker 1: of the characters, so many of the characters who began
Speaker 1: the series, you know, in secondary roles, everybody's role had
Speaker 1: grown and and and everybody had a complicated story to tell,
Speaker 1: and uh, how are we going to do that? Well,
Speaker 1: it took longer than a normal show, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: It's like a feature length finality. How involved were you
Speaker 1: leading up to the table read? You know, the table
Speaker 1: read became a very big deal, as you recall, with
Speaker 1: a humongous audience in this giant auditorium on some location.
Speaker 1: I can't even remember where it was. But here's how
Speaker 1: I I wasn't. Here's what happened with the table reading
Speaker 1: is you know, I I was used to reading the
Speaker 1: scene description, and so I just sort of casually said
Speaker 1: to Greg, would you like me to read the scene description?
Speaker 1: And he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't need to read it. Little did I realize what
Speaker 1: he was planning. He was planning this sort of table
Speaker 1: reading extravag answer, yes, yes, had you read it before?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I definitely, because we none of us had
Speaker 1: really no, I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean,
Speaker 1: if some people did it was because they had a
Speaker 1: soft morning, you know. By by later in the seasons,
Speaker 1: we were not. And it wasn't a product of them
Speaker 1: keeping it a secret. They just they were working and
Speaker 1: we were shooting, and then suddenly it would be table
Speaker 1: read day and there would be an episode in the
Speaker 1: in this trailer. Well, I definitely I read the finale,
Speaker 1: and I was also part of the discussions about Steve's
Speaker 1: cameo appearance, right, I guess I don't know if you
Speaker 1: could call it a cameo appearance, his return, yes, and
Speaker 1: how we were planning to keep it a secret. It's
Speaker 1: still remarkable to me that it was kept a secret,
Speaker 1: considering the fact that he, you know, his appearance in
Speaker 1: the finale is at a wedding where they were like,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people. Yes, So I don't
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense to me that it was
Speaker 1: kept secret, but it was. I will say that I
Speaker 1: was pestered by different news people and uh, I honed
Speaker 1: my you know, fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow
Speaker 1: knew the day before, or a couple of days before,
Speaker 1: I knew that it was coming. Why did you feel
Speaker 1: that was important for him to come back, or did
Speaker 1: you well, I mean, aside from the just you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of excitement getting the whole gang back together again.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it it sort of speaks
Speaker 1: a lot to Michael's character that he would show up
Speaker 1: for the wedding. Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was.
Speaker 1: I mean that Michael's evolution over the course of the series,
Speaker 1: it made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss
Speaker 1: that absolutely. Why do you think that the office has
Speaker 1: not just maintained, but why is the show more popular
Speaker 1: now than it was even when it aired? What is
Speaker 1: it about the show that you think you know that
Speaker 1: so many people respond to. Yeah, I wonder if all
Speaker 1: there were new Let me think about that. I have
Speaker 1: a go. That's a good question. Oh, I have an answer.
Speaker 1: I feel like the continuing popularity of the show has
Speaker 1: a lot to do with the fact that most of
Speaker 1: us do work in really dreary jobs and feel trapped
Speaker 1: in the workplace, and I feel like, in a funny way,
Speaker 1: the show really honors that experience. And uh, I speak
Speaker 1: very personally. My you know, I have a brother who
Speaker 1: is younger than me, who works at a store in
Speaker 1: our hometown, and when you go in and you know,
Speaker 1: behind the counter of the store are all the office
Speaker 1: bobble heads, all of them. And I think in a
Speaker 1: weird way, it's less about the fact that I worked
Speaker 1: on the show and more about the fact that working
Speaker 1: people connect with these characters. Let me ask you this,
Speaker 1: do you think the office contributed to or the culture
Speaker 1: sort of at the time and reality television started to
Speaker 1: become larger, and here we were doing a scripted television
Speaker 1: show to have it attempt to be done really, I mean,
Speaker 1: Randall Einhorn and Mattszone where reality TV camera people. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I just there's something interesting there to me
Speaker 1: about that reality TV started happening, you know, unmasked at
Speaker 1: that time, and here we were a scripted comedy show
Speaker 1: attempting to do the same thing. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: will say that a lot of people you know, that
Speaker 1: I talked to about the show assumed that it was improvised, right,
Speaker 1: And are they're surprised when I say it was actually
Speaker 1: very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound you know, off
Speaker 1: the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show like
Speaker 1: imagine crib. Your enthusiasm is that I've never worked on it,
Speaker 1: but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher Guests films,
Speaker 1: which are remarkable, But the Office was the opposite. It
Speaker 1: was very and I hate the word format it so
Speaker 1: I won't use it. But it was a very well
Speaker 1: crafted Each week was a well crafted script. So I
Speaker 1: feel like in a way it probably fooled people and
Speaker 1: it may have created a you know, it may have
Speaker 1: said an example that other people followed in the wrong
Speaker 1: ways far as something, because it was actually very much
Speaker 1: about you know, there's so much good writing craft going on,
Speaker 1: and I think the fact that people were fooled into
Speaker 1: thinking it was spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to
Speaker 1: how well written it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely. Um,
Speaker 1: what are you most proud of about your contribution to
Speaker 1: the show or the show itself. I'm very proud of
Speaker 1: the fact that there were a lot of naysayers at
Speaker 1: the beginning. There are a lot of people who said
Speaker 1: this will fail, and that it didn't fail. Actually it
Speaker 1: it succeeded, but it succeeded on its own terms, and
Speaker 1: that's what I'm proud of. That's so great. Put on
Speaker 1: your head phones for one second, Hey, will you play
Speaker 1: that clip? I thought it was weird when you picked
Speaker 1: us to make a documentary, But all in all, I
Speaker 1: think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was a
Speaker 1: great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of beauty
Speaker 1: and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is the point. That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay,
Speaker 1: So well, I mean that, I mean to me, what
Speaker 1: that says is that's what Greg thought. The point was,
Speaker 1: what do you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I also feel like they they you know,
Speaker 1: just as a director, it was such a pleasure and
Speaker 1: a privilege to kind of do something that didn't go
Speaker 1: down the middle of the road. And I think audiences
Speaker 1: respect that, and I love that about the show. I
Speaker 1: actually do remember a different ending to the finale as
Speaker 1: I recall. The original ending was, you know, the night before,
Speaker 1: or rather the night of the story, the story that
Speaker 1: all the characters decide they need to take the plant,
Speaker 1: planty plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the
Speaker 1: bullpen for nine seasons, like sad looking plant, and everybody, somebody,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a
Speaker 1: suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated. Planting needs to escape,
Speaker 1: and so everyone marches out of the office with a
Speaker 1: two or three of the characters carrying planty, and everyone's chanting, Planty, Planty.
Speaker 1: The entire ensemble then goes outside of the building in
Speaker 1: the parking lot in front of under Mifflin's building, and
Speaker 1: they plant planting. And the original ending, as Greg and
Speaker 1: I discussed, was that, you know, everyone kind of wanders away.
Speaker 1: Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know, feeling a little sad,
Speaker 1: but in festive, and we hold on this empty parking
Speaker 1: lot with the plant newly planted, the one that was
Speaker 1: in dunder Mifflin is now outside. And as I recall,
Speaker 1: Greg's original plan was that there'd be a dissolved through
Speaker 1: to the next morning, and you just see the empty
Speaker 1: parking lot at dawn with this plant in its new home. Fascinating.
Speaker 1: I totally forgot that. Yeah, that's great, and um, I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised that Greg decided to end with Pam's drawing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful, and and yes, Pam's
Speaker 1: final speech about finding the beauty in the ordinary is
Speaker 1: certainly it could not be a better summation statement. But
Speaker 1: going back to the offbeatness of the show, I must
Speaker 1: say I loved the idea of a show that ended
Speaker 1: with a shot of an empty parking lot and a
Speaker 1: plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well, we you know,
Speaker 1: I talked to Jenna some about it, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was saying to her like if the office was
Speaker 1: a was a being a person or that Pam was
Speaker 1: clearly the heart of the show. Obviously, she's you know,
Speaker 1: has a love interest with Jim Dwight describes her as
Speaker 1: his best friend um in the end, and you know,
Speaker 1: she's the one that has the last moment with Michael
Speaker 1: when he's leaving, and it's interesting that it it goes
Speaker 1: back to her. I do think she was the emotional
Speaker 1: heart of the show. Well, you know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess the only thing I would add to that is
Speaker 1: the show is a comedy, but within it is a
Speaker 1: romantic story. And the romantic story is not played for laughs.
Speaker 1: The romantic story is grounded and real and in a
Speaker 1: very you know, old fashioned sense. This is a show
Speaker 1: with clowns and lovers. Yes, and a different show is different,
Speaker 1: you know, a wonderful show like Friends, the romantic storylines
Speaker 1: are funny. But in the office, Pam and Jim, we
Speaker 1: don't love them because of the laughs. We love them
Speaker 1: because of how you know, grounded and real that relationship
Speaker 1: is well. And we couldn't because both Jenna and John
Speaker 1: aren't funny, so we wouldn't be able, we wouldn't be
Speaker 1: able to Thank goodness, I wasn't written that. I didn't
Speaker 1: say though, because um, I just so appreciate you being Oh,
Speaker 1: I mean, I am so on heard that you gave
Speaker 1: us any time, and I just want you to know,
Speaker 1: just watching things through again and just you as a person,
Speaker 1: I love you, and I just I want you to
Speaker 1: know how much I respect you and give you full
Speaker 1: credit for the world that was created on the office
Speaker 1: with Greg, I love you too, and I miss you,
Speaker 1: my girl. It's been so I'm just so excited that
Speaker 1: you're doing this too. And it was also it's so
Speaker 1: comfortable to talk to you about this good and I
Speaker 1: felt like like, let's just talk about let's just talk
Speaker 1: about exactly. Um, thanks so much. Oh my gosh, well
Speaker 1: you heard it here, folks. Instead of talking about the
Speaker 1: beauty of ordinary things, I could have been talking about
Speaker 1: the beauty of planting this whole time, and you know what,
Speaker 1: maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time to come talk to me.
Speaker 1: I so appreciate it. And to all of my listeners
Speaker 1: you know this, I appreciate you as well. Make sure
Speaker 1: to tune in next week or another behind the scenes
Speaker 1: look at the show in a brand new interview with
Speaker 1: editor extraordinarieror Dave Rogers. Oh and don't forget you can
Speaker 1: pre order our very new and very exciting book, Welcome
Speaker 1: to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office,
Speaker 1: on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going
Speaker 1: to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I
Speaker 1: just need you to do one thing. Have a fan
Speaker 1: freakytastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Brian Gartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers for this
Speaker 1: episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. My main man
Speaker 1: in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
Speaker 1: the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Hey, it's de Lieva.
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast,
Speaker 1: De Lipa At your service. I'll be sitting down with
Speaker 1: the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them
Speaker 1: take and what they've learned from the obstacles life has
Speaker 1: thrown at them, including Sir Elton John. After a lot
Speaker 1: of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals,
Speaker 1: It's turned out to be the most wonderful life right
Speaker 1: now that I could have ever imagined. Listen to do
Speaker 1: Ali for at your service on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what
Speaker 1: does the chickens say? Uh? Draft? Draft? Really? Giraffe? Giraffe.
Speaker 1: You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure
Speaker 1: you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids
Speaker 1: are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Speaker 1: Get it right visits n h S a dot gov
Speaker 1: slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National
Speaker 1: Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Did you
Speaker 1: know that on the day Dr King was shot, the
Speaker 1: all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off.
Speaker 1: They're the ones who would not allow him to stay
Speaker 1: at any hotel with balconies. Did you ever asked what
Speaker 1: this was all about? What we pold? This is the
Speaker 1: MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.