1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Science Stuff production of iHeartRadio. Hoarhitch Ham 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: and do they We're finally getting to the science of procrastination. 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Why do we procrastinate? Who procrastinates? And is there a cure. 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking to not one, not two, but 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: three psychologists about this phenomenon, all of whom have a 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: different take on why we procrastinate, and then we're gonna 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: talk about possible strategies you can use to stop procrastinating, 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: including some that you might find unusual. So, whether you're 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: someone who keeps putting things off, or if you want 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to understand people around you should do, then don't delay. 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Listen on as we tackle the science of procrastination. 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: Y enjoy. 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, So I am a big procrastinator. If you 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: work with me, then you probably know to give me 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: a fake deadline just to make sure I don't turn 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: things in late. I've also written comics groups about procrastination. 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: It was a big theme in PhD comics, and I've 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: delivered a lecture on procrastination in academia called the Power 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: of Procrastination about four hundred times in universities all over 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: the world. So I was very interested and a little 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: scared about tackling today's subject. Now, I know I'm not alone. 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: According to the experts we're talking to today, about ninety 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: five percent of all human beings report procrastinating at least 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: a little bit in their lives. I mean, come on, 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: we all do it. I say that other five percent 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: of the population is just lying. But some people procrastinate 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: a lot, and they do it to the point where 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: it starts to affect their lives. Maybe it's a nagging 29 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: sense of guilt they carry with them, or maybe it 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: results in misopportunities, or there could even be health consequences. 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: By the way, if you have any medical issues that 32 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: you need to get checked or anything, go do that 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: right now. Don't mess around with that now. As it 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: turns out, there is a whole field of scientific research 35 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: into procrastination. If you search for academic papers with the 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: word procrastination, you get about three hundred thousand results, about 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: thirty thousand of those just in the last three years. 38 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: Like I said, it happens to a lot of people, 39 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: and according to the first expert we're talking to today, 40 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of a consequence of our evolution and our history. 41 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: So here's my conversation with doctor Pier Steele, a professor 42 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,839 Speaker 1: of organizational psychology at the University of Calgary. Well, thank 43 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: you so much, doctor Steele for joining us. 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: Great to be here. 45 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: Thank you. 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: Now I reached out to you, I want to say, 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: maybe like ten years ago, and we put it off. Yes, 48 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: we procrastinated a little, but we finally did it. We 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: finally connected. Is this a historic case of procrastination? 50 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 4: Well, I did a historic review of it, and some 51 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 4: of the ones are pretty out there. 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: You've seem worse, seem worse, far worse. 53 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 4: One thing, I've always wanted to restart the Procrastination Club 54 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 4: of America. 55 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: Oh, but something keeps getting away. It might take a 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: while to get members to sign up. 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it might take a little bit of a while. 58 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 4: But procrastinations funny, right, uh huh, It's tragic and funny simultaneously. 59 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: Right. Oh no, we take it very seriously here at 60 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: sign stuff. 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 4: Well, I know the science of it, if that's what 62 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 4: people want, but it has you know, deep lines going 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 4: back in history. 64 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: Tell us about the history of procrastination. 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 4: Okay, well you want to go back. It's as old 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 4: as time, really as old as us. If you go 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 4: back far enough. I mean one of the first historical 68 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 4: references to it are in about fourteen hundred BC in 69 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 4: ancient hieroglyphs. And the reason why, of course, is because 70 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: we just started getting our civilization together. 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: According to doctor Steele, yea of procrastination basically started with 72 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: complex civilization. Before women were just hunters and gatherers. We 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: just kind of did whatever we wanted to do. But 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: then things got complicated. Society has got more complex. We 75 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: needed to coordinate with others and do things in groups, 76 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: and suddenly we had deadlines. 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 4: That's right, we had coordination problems. Agriculture is like the 78 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 4: first long term basically goal. You had to plant in 79 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 4: the spring to reap. 80 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: In the fall, right, you had to plan ahead. 81 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. Things have to happen. 82 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: So before we evolved as animals in the wild and 83 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: we just did whatever we wanted to do. In fact, 84 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: we should have all to not worry too much about 85 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: the future. 86 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 4: Back in the day, when food was short and it's spoiled, 87 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: you better gorge what's good because it's really difficult to 88 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 4: get food and high energy ones that's what you need 89 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 4: to serve. We have like one hundred million years of 90 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 4: evolution and ancestors that go along with So if you're 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 4: living in an environment where there are no long term 92 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 4: goals and projects, your mind evolves towards the short term. 93 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 4: It naturally does. 94 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: And this, Dougor Steele argues, means we kind of evolved 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: to have two brains in our heads. 96 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 4: So we have this kind of clusion of a brain. 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 4: We have this older limpic system, which kind of wants 98 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 4: things that sees right, and you have this prefront the cortex, 99 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 4: which is good for planning in the future. 100 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: I see, it's not like someone designed a human being 101 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: from scratch. It's like we evolved and we built on 102 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: top of what sibilis there and what's under there was 103 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: least be an animal. 104 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we evolve from that. We didn't get 105 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 4: rid of that, We just added to it like an extension, 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 4: so that part of us is still there. 107 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: This is what psychologists call the dualistic theory of mind, 108 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: which says that we kind of have two brains, the 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: primitive animal brain we evolved for millions of years, called 110 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: the limbic system, and the rational planning brain we've wrapped 111 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: around it called the prefrontal cortex. And doctor Pierre says 112 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: that procrastination is basically what happens when those two brains 113 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: fight with each other, especially about something called temporal discounting. 114 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 4: Procrastinations is simply an expression of our temporal discounting, which 115 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: we fire value the now more than later. 116 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: Okay, here's an example. Let's say you want to exercise 117 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: more well, when the time comes, your prefrontal cortex knows 118 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: that exercise is good for you and that it will 119 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: pay off in the future, But your limbic system doesn't 120 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: really understand the future. It just knows that you're tired, 121 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: that exercise is boring and it's uncomfortable effort. Or let's 122 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: say you need to work on your taxes. Your prefrontal 123 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: cortex knows you need to do it or you'll get 124 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: in trouble in the future. But all your limbic system 125 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: knows is that it's a pain in the butt. And 126 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: so the two parts of your brain are always fighting 127 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: it out. And sometimes your limbic system wins and you procrastinate, 128 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and sometimes your prefrontal cortex wins and you get things done. 129 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: All of this can be captured. It's something that doctor 130 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Steele calls the procrastination equation. Yes, there is math involved 131 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: in procrastination. 132 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 4: Well, there's an equation, right, I wrote the book the 133 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 4: Procrastination Equation, So there is actually a mathematical formula for 134 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: Oh what is it? There's three basic variables, and the 135 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 4: first is just rational gambling. 136 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: Okay, here's a mathematical equation that doctor Steele says basically 137 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: can predict whether you're going to procrastinate or not. The 138 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: equation says that how likely you are to do something 139 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: is equal to how confident you are that you can 140 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: do it times how much value you think you'll get 141 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: out of doing it, divided by the amount of impulsiveness 142 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: in your life. So if you're really confident you can 143 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: do something, the more likely you are that you're going 144 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: to do it. The more something is worth to you, 145 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: like how much money you'll get out of it, or 146 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: how much trouble you'll get into if you don't do it, 147 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: the more likely also that you're going to do it. 148 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: But then both of those terms are divided by the 149 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: impulsiveness in your life. So if you have a lot 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: of impulsiveness in your life, you're less likely to get 151 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: things done. But if you have less impulsiveness, the more 152 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: likely you're going to do things, and this impulsiveness, doctor 153 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: Steele says, is a combination of a the personality you're 154 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: born with. B the skills you've learned in life, and 155 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: see how many distractions you have around you. Now, two 156 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: of those things you can change. You can learn new 157 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: skills to get yourself organized and avoid procrastination, and you 158 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: can reduce the number of distractions in your life, like 159 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: turn off your cell phone or don't work in front 160 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: of the TV. But the third, your personality is something 161 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: you're just born with. 162 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 4: Well, the degree of procrastination is really it's genetic. It's 163 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 4: eighty percent. Because it's a personality trait. It comes under 164 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: conscientiousness and boat's neuroticism. Anxiety is a better, more transparent 165 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 4: term for it. 166 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: Psychologists can track personality traits in people, and the two 167 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: scientists have found that are most associated with procrastination are 168 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: called conscientiousness, which is how diligent you are, and neuroticism 169 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: or anxiousness, which is how much you tend to worry 170 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: about things and overthink them. In scientific studies, people who 171 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: are diligent tend to procrastinate less, and people who are 172 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: anxious or neurotic tend to procrastinate more. And we know 173 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: these are genetic from twin studies. 174 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 4: So you can do this by twins raised together versus 175 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 4: raised to part So then you can see if they 176 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 4: are still like pretty much identical despite being never have 177 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 4: met each other and raised in different households. Be given 178 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 4: things like, you know, a procrastination or impulsivity test, and 179 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 4: all the rest of them. And if they both have 180 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: a strong agreement correlation with each other, you know with 181 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 4: a high degree of certainty it's genetic, right. You don't 182 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 4: actually have to go in the DNA to do it. 183 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: So if your twin is a procrastinator, chances are you're 184 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: a procrastinator too. Or if you find that your daughter 185 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: is a procrastinator, uh like I have, then you have 186 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: no one to blame but your own genes. The tendency 187 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: to procrastinate is hereditary. Okay, So to recap, scientists have 188 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: a mathematical formula for procrastination. It says that you're less 189 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: likely to procrastinate if you're confident and the task is 190 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: important to you and you've learned how to organize yourself. 191 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: But you're more likely to procrastinate if you're impulsive or 192 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: if you have a lot of distractions around you. Now, 193 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: does that mean we've solved procrastination? Not quite. According to 194 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: the next scientist we're going to talk to, this a 195 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: question doesn't answer one of the main questions about procrastination, 196 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: which is why do we do it? If we know 197 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: something is important to us, why do we still choose 198 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: not to do it. When we come back, we're going 199 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: to answer this question, and we're also going to talk 200 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: about how to stop procrastinating. So don't procrastinate. Stay with us, 201 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Hey, welcome back. We're talking about 202 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: the science of procrastination, and so far we talk to 203 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: one expert who says procrastination is simply an expression of 204 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: our temporal discounting. That's the idea that we value the 205 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: present more than we value the future. For example, if 206 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: I give you the choice of taking one thousand dollars 207 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: in cold hard cash right now versus taking one one 208 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: hundred dollars in say, two years, your brain is probably 209 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: thinking I'll take the cash now. That's what's happening. According 210 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: to doctor Pier Steele, when you procrastinate, you're discounting the 211 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: potential negative consequences that might happen in the future if 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: you procrastinate. Doctor Steele even has a procrastination equation. But 213 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: according to the next procrastination expert I talk to, there's 214 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: something missing from this view of procrastination, and that is 215 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: why do we do it? It only counts as procrastination 216 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: if you feel you should be doing something else, So 217 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: why do it? Why do we still make that choice 218 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: to put things off? And for chronic procrastinators, why do 219 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: they keep making that choice over and over again? To 220 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: answer that, here's my conversation with doctor Fusia Sira, a 221 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: professor of Social and health psychology at Durham University in 222 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: the UK. Well, thank you, doctor Sirah for joining. 223 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 5: Us, no problem, thanks for having me. 224 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: And we finally were able to connect. We've been trying 225 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: for a while. We've been procrastinating. 226 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 5: No no, we've been making wise delay to find the 227 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 5: perfect time. 228 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: Okay, this is interesting. According to doctor Sira, there is 229 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: an annual conference on the scientific study of procrastination. Well, 230 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: it's not quite annual. 231 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 5: We had a procrastination conference in Yutrik University in Netherlands 232 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 5: this summer. We do it every two years. As a 233 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 5: running joke that that's about as often as we can 234 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 5: get around to doing it because it's procrastination. 235 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: These are people who procrastinate or people who study procrastination. 236 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: People who study procrastinations. That's sort of the the international 237 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 5: group of scholars who study procrastination, which has been growing 238 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 5: over the last few years, which is good to see 239 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 5: a lot of new young researchers coming into the fold 240 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 5: and taking up the call to better understand procrastination from 241 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:13,479 Speaker 5: a scientific perspective. 242 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: According to doctor Sarah, there is still a lot of 243 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: healthy scientific debate about what counts as procrastination and why 244 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: people do it. Well, they just start us off, can 245 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: tell us what is procrastination? How do scientists define it? 246 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 5: So procrastination is a form of delay, but it's not 247 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 5: your garden variety delay. So it's unnecessary and voluntary delay 248 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 5: of an important task that you intended to do, despite 249 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 5: knowing that there's going to be negative or harmful consequences 250 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 5: by not following through. This is why it is such 251 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 5: a fascinating phenomena to study, because people do this thing 252 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 5: that's so irrational. They know on some level it's going 253 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 5: to be harmful, yet they still do it. Like what's 254 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 5: going on there? 255 00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, what is going on here. Well, any Deductor Sirah, 256 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: the answer is actually not that complicated. 257 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 5: I think the initial work on procrastination was taken up 258 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 5: by behavioral economists who look at the cost of things, 259 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 5: the cost of behavior, and the trade offs, because it 260 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 5: looks like there's trade off with procrastination on the surface. 261 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 5: So there was this view that it's something that you 262 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 5: could put down to some sort of a formula, and 263 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 5: it was always about your what you expected and what 264 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 5: you valued, and things put into the formulas motivation times, 265 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 5: you know, future value equals tendency. 266 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, doctor Sierra argues, people don't really 267 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,239 Speaker 1: follow a formula when they procrastinate. 268 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 5: People don't think that way when they procrastinate. They don't 269 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 5: make a conscious decision to procrastinate. It's irrational. You can't 270 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 5: foot it in to formula. So it's absolutely rational. Yeah, 271 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 5: and that's why if you try to explain it using 272 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 5: rational formulas, you're always going to miss the footing. 273 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: Acquitting Deductor Surrah, the real reason we procrastinate is emotional. 274 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 5: After several discussions, we did put out a theoretical paper 275 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 5: where we want to just turn over this idea that 276 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 5: it's just this rational formulaic thing, and no, this is 277 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 5: it's irrational. And what else do we know in our 278 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: human experiences is also i rational emotions. So we've put 279 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 5: forth the idea that is a sort of temporal mood 280 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 5: regulation sort of model where really what we're doing when 281 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 5: we procrastinate is we're trying to regulate our mood and 282 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 5: it's not the task, it's the emotions associated with that task. 283 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: What are Sura saying is that at the heart of 284 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: every decision to procrastinate, there isn't a calculation about what's 285 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: good for us now or later, or what is the 286 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: value to us. When we're procrastinating, we're simply reacting to 287 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: an emotion. 288 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 5: It's the low self esteem, it's the perfection is. It's 289 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: to worry about what's to come or not to come. 290 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 5: It's the threats to our sense of competency. So you've 291 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 5: got this thing you're really worried about. It's like, it's 292 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 5: going to be horrible. I've never done it before. It's 293 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: not going to be good enough. I'm going to be criticized, 294 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 5: I'm going to feel terrible about myself. Like, well, it's 295 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 5: just boredom. Sometimes because boredom is an unpleasant state as well. 296 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 5: It's a full range of negative emotions. As human beings, 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 5: we avoid negative emotions. 298 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: Oh I see. 299 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 5: So we argued that what you're doing with procrastination is 300 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 5: you're avoiding the emotions associated with that task, right, and 301 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 5: we react to that. Okay, I need to regulate this emotion. 302 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 5: What do I do? I think I go do something 303 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 5: more interesting or that I enjoy, because that will help 304 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 5: me forget about this thing that I know I should 305 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 5: be doing right now that I'm not doing. 306 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. 307 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 5: The unwillingness to work on that project or task or 308 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 5: goal that is causing you challenging emotions that you don't 309 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 5: know how to deal with except by disengaging from them, 310 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 5: walking away from which we see behaviorally as procrastination. 311 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know about you, but at this point 312 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: in the conversation I was feeling, as people say expost, 313 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: what doctor Sira is saying is that at the heart 314 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: of every time you procrastinate, there's a core emotion being 315 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: triggered by the thing you're supposed to be doing. Maybe 316 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: you're afraid that people will judge you if you do it, 317 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: or you're afraid it won't turn out as good as 318 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: you want it to be, or maybe you associate the 319 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: task with something stressful that's happened to you before, or 320 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's just hard or boring, and that negative emotion 321 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: is enough to keep you from doing it and to 322 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: make things worse. The fact that you're not doing it 323 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: can cause the negative emotions to pile up. 324 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 5: But it doesn't last because it's not effective mood regulations. 325 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 5: People feel bad about the procrastination, then they start beating 326 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 5: themselves up about procrastinating, and now they've gone another layer 327 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 5: of negative mood onto the task. And is that going 328 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 5: to get them to do it? No, it'll make the 329 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 5: procrastination even more now to move away from that negative mood. 330 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 5: And so you get this precious circle. And if you 331 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 5: people stepping in going why aren't you doing this? Again? 332 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 5: More negative mood, they're going to put it aside. 333 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 334 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 5: It doesn't help people to make them feel bad about 335 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 5: the procrastating. It has the opposite effect. 336 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: I feel gotri Sura that you're peering into my soul 337 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: right now. You're laying bare all the hang ups and 338 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: decisions in life. 339 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 5: That's what we all go through when we procrastinate. It's 340 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 5: pure raw emotion and it needs to be managed. And 341 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 5: that's it. 342 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I see. 343 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 5: And there's different strategies you can take to do this. 344 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 5: But unless you recognize that emotions are ground zero for procrastination, 345 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 5: any other stuff you do isn't going to be effective 346 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 5: in the long run. 347 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I feel like you're making it sound rational, 348 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: which defeats to the rest of the definition, Like if 349 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm avoiding it for an emotional reason, then isn't that rational? 350 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 5: No, So he is rational in the moment. It apports 351 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 5: you short term mood repair. So there is a reason, 352 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 5: a short term reason. You get short term benefit. Yeah, 353 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 5: but it is irrational because the cost of not actually 354 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 5: getting that task done is the lot what's looming larger. 355 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 5: And so the reason to do it is you're afforded 356 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 5: this this shift from feeling bad to feeling not so 357 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 5: bad or to feeling better because you especially to go 358 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 5: off and do something that's more enjoyable. But it's not 359 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 5: effective emotion regulation because it comes back to bite you 360 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 5: ten times worse than it was in the first place, right, 361 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 5: because you start feeling bad about it, and other people 362 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 5: might be getting on your case, and then now it's 363 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 5: looking even worse. And you worry more, and it's getting 364 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 5: closer to the deadline, and you know all these sorts 365 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 5: of things. 366 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's why we really procrastinate. We do it 367 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: because there's a negative emotion tied to the thing we're 368 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, and we don't know how to 369 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: deal with that emotion other than to avoid it or 370 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: put it off, Which means there's a very simple way 371 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: to stop procrastinating. We'll get to what that is, but 372 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: first I wanted to know procrastination is really all that bad? 373 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: What the science say is really the impact of putting 374 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: things off. When we come back, we'll talk to another 375 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: psychologist who was involved in the longest running study on 376 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: procrastination ever done, where they tracked procrastinators for almost twenty years. 377 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: We'll see what they found after the break. Stay with us, 378 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Hey, welcome back. We're talking about 379 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the size of procrastination, and so far we learn what 380 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: procrastination is, who procrastinates, and why we procrastinate. Now there's 381 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: only two questions left. Is procrastination really that bad? And 382 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: how can we stop procrastinating? To answer the first question, 383 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: I reached out to psychologist doctor Lisa boylke a research 384 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: scientist at the University of Tubingen in Germany. Doctor Bolka 385 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: is one of the authors of one of the longest 386 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: running experiments on procrastination ever done, where they looked at 387 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: what really happens to people who procrastinate to tell us 388 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: about it. Here's my conversation with doctor Bolka. Well, thank you, 389 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: doctor boylkeev for joining us. 390 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm happy to be here. 391 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: Can you please tell us who you are and what 392 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: you do. 393 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: Well. 394 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: My name is Lisa Boyka. 395 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: I'm a research scientist and postdoc at the Hector Research 396 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 2: Institute of Education, Sciences and Psychology at the University of Tubingen, 397 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: and I'm interested in understanding how procrastination emerges and how 398 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: it can be overcome. 399 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: Incredible, and we almost didn't have this meeting because I 400 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: procrastinated in sending you the link to. 401 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm worrious about that. 402 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 2: I guess I did an effective strategy of reminding and 403 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: then go fine, good giving you deadlines. 404 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you. So. 405 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: At our institute, there was a longitutional study that started 406 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: in two thousand and two and it was a big 407 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 2: cohort with over four thousand students and it started in 408 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 2: the high school at the very last year and attract 409 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 2: actually students every two years or later on every four years. 410 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: And there we have like this massive data set where 411 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 2: we could actually track students and ask them several years later, 412 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: including during the pandemic, on how they are feeling, what 413 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: they are doing, and this we could connect to their 414 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: procrastination tendencies as well as to how they developed their 415 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: procrastination behavior over time. 416 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: Okay, I have a lot of questions now, So you 417 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: tracked people for eighteen years. Every couple of years, you 418 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: would go back to them and you would survey them 419 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: and you ask him questions. Yeah, correct, What kinds of 420 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: questions would you follow up with? 421 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: So it was always the same questions, which makes it 422 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: possible to have a look on how different things develop 423 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: over time. For instance, if you ask them about generally 424 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: delaying tasks and then they indicate in one year, yes, 425 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: I do this a lot, and then several years later 426 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: this and maybe not so much anymore, so that you 427 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: can actually see how things changed over time. 428 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: So doctor Bulky and her colleagues at the University of 429 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: Tuingngen have been tracking the same few thousand people since 430 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: two thousand and two, and this is an amazing feat. 431 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about it, getting a few 432 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: thousand procrastinators to consistently fill out a survey every couple 433 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: of years and actually turning it on time seems like 434 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: an impossible task. I guess it could only happen in Germany. 435 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: But what's unique about this survey is that they've been 436 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: able to not only track how much these few thousand 437 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: people who procrastinate, but they also attracked how their lives 438 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: are going, how successful they are, whether they're in a relationship, 439 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: and how they feel in general. And what they found 440 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. They found two things. The first is 441 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: that the people who procrastinate more don't do as well 442 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: as everybody else. So you could tell like people who 443 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: procrastinated more over time led a different life than people 444 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: who did not procrastinate as much. 445 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you could say it in a way like this, 446 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: So it's correlational findings, but still you have the results 447 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 2: over time, so you can't do causal conclusions there, but 448 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: you can say procrastination was related to these kind of 449 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: live outcomes and you can see that it had a 450 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: negative impact. 451 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: I see on how much money you make, and what 452 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: were the negative correlations? 453 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was for example, lower chances of completing 454 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: a university three, of getting promoted at work, regarding maintaining 455 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: a stable relationship, as well as general lower life satisfaction. 456 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: And it was also associated with maladaptive behaviors during the pandemic, 457 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: such as increased computer and internet consumption and poor mental health. 458 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: Oh wow, it affects your relationships. 459 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 2: Wow, that's actually quite interesting, and we were also thinking 460 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: about why is that. So you can, for instance, assume 461 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: that maybe a person that is constantly procrastinating on major 462 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: life decisions or like also maybe when to enter work, 463 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: or that studying at university takes for ages, then this 464 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: might also affect your personal life at home. And then 465 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: this might also result in not having as many stable 466 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: relationships or stable relationships at all as people do that 467 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: are procrastinating less. 468 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: Wow. Do you think that's because you would drive your 469 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: partner crazy or you would never get around to proposing 470 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: or something like that. 471 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it could be both just speculating here. 472 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, fascinating. And you said poor mental health meaning 473 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: they were more stressed or they were just in general 474 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: not feeling as well. What does that mean? 475 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: So in other studies it was shown that it is 476 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 2: related to increased stress or lower. 477 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 3: Indicated well being. 478 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: In this study, we operrationalized it by asking, like, compared 479 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: to other people, you know, how is your health Is 480 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: it higher? Is it lower? And they mostly indicated that 481 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: it's actually lower. 482 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: Oh I see, it's self reported mental health. 483 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 3: In comparison to others. 484 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: Oh I see, And why do you think they have 485 00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: lower mental health? 486 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: I guess like one reason could be that because you're 487 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 2: postponing things irrationally, like you're always on the last minute, 488 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: Like you have more stressful situations. But you can also 489 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: have a lot of small deadlines. If you know, by 490 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: the end of every week, I want to do sports, 491 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: for instance, and then every week you're procrastinating on doing sports, 492 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: and this of course stresses you out because you realize 493 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: that this is actually not what you intended to do. 494 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 2: So this might accumulate over time, and then you have 495 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: overall increased stress. 496 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: I see. Do you feel bad about putting things off 497 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot? 498 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 3: Yes? 499 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: I feel like you might be describing my life a 500 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: little bit. 501 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: Maybe talking about it helps you. 502 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: Feeling your patterns, ye are very producing an episode might 503 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: help me. Yeah, So people who procrastinate don't do so 504 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: well at least in some traditional measures of success. But 505 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: as doctor Bolkia said, the results are correlational, meaning that 506 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: it could be that these people are doing less well 507 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: because they procrastinate, But it could also be that people 508 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: who don't do well also just happen to be the 509 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: kind of people who procrastinate a lot. It could even 510 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: be that whatever else is going on in their lives 511 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: that gives them less success is also causing them to procrastinate. 512 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: As doctor Balka said, you need to dig into it 513 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: with more research. But the other interesting thing doctor bulk 514 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: and her colleagues found is that how much people procrastinate 515 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: changes over time. 516 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: So, for instance, we can also see that procrastination tendencies 517 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: decrease with age, so there is kind of a maturation 518 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: process that people are actually able also to overcome. 519 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 3: This with age. 520 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, as we get older, we tend to on average, 521 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: procrastinate less. And part of it, doctor Bulka says, is 522 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: that we just mature, we learn to deal with things 523 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: little better. But part of it is also that the 524 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: world sort of gives you less room to procrastinate. For example, 525 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: when you're a student and you're in college, there's lots 526 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: of flexibility, but once you get out into the real world, 527 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: things aren't that easy for you. 528 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: For instance, studying presents an environment where you don't get 529 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: a lot of feedback, you don't have many deadlines like 530 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: you have to organize your learning independently. 531 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: So there we can see that a lot of procrastination happens. 532 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: But then later on in life, when you have a 533 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: transition from studying into the work environment, then this is 534 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: associated with less procrastination. So you change an environment also 535 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 2: affects your procrastination overall. 536 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: So there is a general trend to procrastinate less over time, 537 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: but according to doctor Bolka, this doesn't apply to everyone. 538 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: Some people never stop procrastinating. 539 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: We can just see in our study that there is 540 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: variance in the development, so you actually have people getting 541 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: better and also people not getting better. 542 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: Wow. Wait, wait, are you saying that most of us 543 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: learn how to deal with procrastination, but some people even 544 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: procrastinate learning about procrastination. 545 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: So yeah, you can see that you have this mean 546 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: level change that on average people are getting better over time, 547 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: but you can also see that it doesn't apply to everyone. 548 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: Fascinating. I guess what does that tell you about human 549 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: nature and why we do think it. 550 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: Can actually shows that we are able to change, that 551 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 2: it's not set in stone, that it is forever. There 552 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: are also interventions on personality change or how to develop 553 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: different skills, so it can actually shows that there's a 554 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: light at the end of the procrastination tunnel and that 555 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: it's possible to overcome this behavior. 556 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: And that brings us to the last question, which is 557 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: how do you overcome this behavior? What do our experts 558 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: say about how to stop procrastinating? Unfortunately, we left this 559 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: question to the end and now we're out of time. 560 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: We procrastinated telling you how to stop procrastinating. But don't worry, 561 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: We're going to answer this question in a bonus mini 562 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: episode that comes out later this week titled how to 563 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: Stop Procrastinating. In it, we're going to hear from our 564 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: experts how they deal with their own procrastination and what 565 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: advice they give people who want to stop procrastinating. So 566 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: be sure to check out that mini episode just look 567 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: for it in a few days. Until then, thanks for 568 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: joining us. See you there, you've been listening to science Stuff. 569 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: The production of iHeartRadio Britain and produced by me or 570 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: Hey Champ heredited by Rose Seguda, Executive producer Jerry Rowland 571 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Peckram. And you can 572 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: follow me on social media. Just search for PhD Comics 573 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. Be sure to 574 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: subscribe to sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 575 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell your 576 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.