1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Rolling Stone recently called Jason Isabel arguably the most 2 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: revered roots rock singer songwriter of his generation. Jason was 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: born in rural Alabama to a close knit family of musicians. 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: He played gospel and old hillbilly songs on the mandolin 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: and guitar before discovering the blues. When he was twenty two, 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Isabel joined southern rock band that Drive By Truckers, who 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: just had on The Show recently, and after six years 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: with them, started out on a successful solo career. He's 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: released six albums, won four Grammys, and wrote the song 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: maybe It's Time for Bradley Cooper's version of a Star 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: is Born, a pivotal song in the movie's plot. He's 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: just released his newest album called Reunions, accompanied by his 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: band The four hundred Unit, and is building a solid 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: body of evidence that he is, in fact, one of 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: the most gifted songwriters working today. Jason and Rick Rubin 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: met for the first time just before the interview You're 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: about to hear. They talked about his Southern roots, his 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: approach to songwriting, and he cracks out a song called 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Overseas from his new album that at the time no 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: one aside from his manager, had ever heard this is 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin talking to Jason Isabel. Rick dives right 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: into Jason's thoughts on the spiritual value of making music. 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: What did I ask about, do you find a spiritual 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: relationship to music? Yes? A short answer is yes, I do. 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: You know, for all the reasons that are probably cliched 27 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: by now, but it's one of these things where whatever's 28 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: happened to me throughout my wife, be able to make 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: music has been ultimate goal. And I think anything when 30 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 1: you find that one purpose for yourself and you give 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: yourself over to the process of that purpose rather than 32 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: the goal of that purpose, it becomes a spiritual thing. 33 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: So for me, you know, I never wanted to be 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: a musician. I just wanted to make music, and every 35 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: wanted to be a songwriter. I just wanted to write songs, 36 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: or I needed to write songs. Some days I didn't 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: want to, but I needed to, you know. And I 38 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: think that from my personal experience, I don't know of 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: anything more spiritual than that, you know, And that's not 40 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: even really discussing the connection that's on a personal level, 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, an inspect of the ritual aspect of it totally. Yeah, yeah. 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: And I think when when ritual sort of evolves on 43 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: its own, you know, rather than you begin with the 44 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: ritual and then try to find what's holy about it, 45 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's something that's more honest to 46 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: me about that interesting. You know. I never felt like 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I had to practice. I never sat down and thought 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: I need to work on my guitar playing today. It's 49 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: just what I did when I didn't have to do 50 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: anything else. Did the writing did it start with the right? 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: Was the initial idea more focused on the writing or 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: more focused on the playing? The playing, definitely, you wanted 53 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: to be in a band or or be a I 54 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: just wanted to play all the time. And did you 55 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: see yourself as a singer? Always? No, No, not at all. 56 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: It took a long time for that to happen. Uh, yeah, 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: it took a long I think something about amplification, you know, 58 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: made it possible for me to enjoy singing. You know, 59 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: when I started singing into a microphone in the studio 60 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: or on stage, the hugeness of that and the things 61 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: that I could do was mic technique, and you know, 62 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: manipulating the situation. I think attracted me to singing more 63 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: than it had in the past, you know. But for 64 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: the first ten years of my musical development, all I 65 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: wanted to do was play the guitar. That was all 66 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to do, you know, And I didn't think, 67 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, I pictured myself playing guitar in front of people, 68 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: but that was as far as it went. And did 69 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: you grow up playing guitar with records? Is that how 70 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: you learned to play? Yeah, My grandfather and my uncle, 71 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: my dad's little brother, they both played. My grandfather was 72 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: a preacher, Pentecostal preacher in Alabama, and Pentecostal church was 73 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: really kind of the most rock and roll church, you know. 74 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: So they had bass and drums and electric guitars and 75 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: stuff like that, and he played all kinds of instruments. 76 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 1: Him and all his siblings grew up playing gospel music, 77 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: and a couple of them were professional musicians, but for 78 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: the most part they were hobbyists or religious musicians. So 79 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: my parents were super young when I was born, and 80 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: they both worked, and I would stay with my grandparents, 81 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: and my grandfather started teaching me how to play guitar, 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, you play the rhythm guitar, 83 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: I'll play a lead instrument. He would play claw hammer, 84 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: banjo or mandolin or fiddle, and we would learn these, 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, he would teach me these hillbilly songs. He 86 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: liked old country songs. The more humorous the better for him, 87 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: you know. He liked Grandpa Jones and the Opry Stars 88 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: and you know, the Heehaw Gang and all that stuff. 89 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: And then somehow I got interested in the blues when 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: I was eight or nine years old, and he would 91 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: reward me if I would play like rhythm guitar for 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: a couple of hours. He would take his guitar and 93 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: tune in to an open tuning and play with his 94 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: pocket knife on his lap. And that was like my 95 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: reward for that, you know. And then at one point 96 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: he took me to the record store and bought when 97 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: the Robert Johnson Complete Recordings Box came out, he bought 98 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: me that on cassette. But him being a preacher and 99 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: me being ten or eleven years old, he overdubbed all 100 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: the songs onto a blank casset, except for like like 101 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: Traveling Riverside, the ones that had anything that he considered 102 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: to be obscene. He took those out, you know, so 103 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: like to squeeze my limon. Stuff didn't make it in. 104 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: Then when I was about fifteen, he gave me the 105 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: original box which I already had on my own, but 106 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to tell him that, you know, but 107 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: he was like, I think you're old enough for this now, 108 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: so he gave me the original box set. So yeah, 109 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: that was is huge for me, and that was kind 110 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: of I mean, this was the eighties in Alabama, so 111 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't like, you know, the music was popular anymore really, 112 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 1: but for me it was as though it was having 113 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: its heyday because that's what was the music that was 114 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: going on when you were growing up, Country music mostly, 115 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, that's what my friends listened to. And who 116 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: would have been the artist, just so I could picture 117 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: of the era, probably early Garth Brooks, Like I remember 118 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: ninety ninety one, I saw Garth at the State Fair 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: for a dollar right before the pop Belly pig Ray 120 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and I think Friends in Low Places came out like 121 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: a week later, so it was you know, he was 122 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: He probably never played in the Daylight again after that, 123 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: but but yeah, so that that was really big. And 124 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: then my uncle had a cover band. It's great, by 125 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: the way, Like, was it a great experience seeing Garth? Then? 126 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: It was, but I didn't know, like looking back on it, 127 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, back then, I thought, this guy's working really hard. 128 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: He's got a microphone on his head. You know, it's 129 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: kind of cool. But it was like the fair in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee, 130 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: and I kind of wanted to get on to riding 131 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: fair rides, you know. But it was in hindsight, it 132 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: was a very I mean, they were hungry and they 133 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: were working really really hard, and that probably wasn't their 134 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: only show that day, and they still definitely brought it, 135 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: you know. But it wasn't like I looked at him 136 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: and thought, this guy's about to change country music significantly. 137 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: I just thought, Wow, this guy's working really hard at 138 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: four o'clock in the afternoon and Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. You know. 139 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: But then I really liked what was on the radio 140 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: in those days. I mean I loved Prince and Crowded 141 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: House and Till Tuesday and all these really great pop songs. 142 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: So there was this strange combination of that and then 143 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: the arena rock and southern rock that my dad was 144 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: listening to. Dad was in diseasy type and skinnered and 145 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: these big rock bands and playing guitar. That became a 146 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: big deal for me, that kind of stuff. You know. 147 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: My uncle played in a cover band. They would practice 148 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: in the garage and my dad and my mom would 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: go over there and drink Margarita's and fall asleep on 150 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: the weight bench and they would My uncle had like 151 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: a broken cry baby wah pedal and they would cover 152 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: like a hurricane and the wah pedal would do that 153 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, when the pot breaks when it does that, 154 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, And I remember that from probably seven 155 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: or eight years old, and they would play it for 156 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: like twenty five minutes, so I don't think I could 157 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: stay awake for all of like a herring came. So 158 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: it really helped. Coming from the family that you came 159 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: from really helped form your world of music. Yeah, yeah, 160 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: it was huge. I got very lucky, Yeah, very lucky, 161 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: because it was just like it was second nature for 162 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: them to support what I was doing. They didn't realize 163 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: they were supporting me. They just thought this is how 164 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: we all spend time together, you know. Um. And it 165 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: didn't occur to me until much later on when some 166 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: of those folks weren't around anymore that you know. They 167 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: gave me a gift that most people never get. You know, 168 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: I knew what I wanted to do from There's no astronaut, 169 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: no fireman, no nothing like that. I just wanted to 170 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: play the guitar for the rest of them. Do you 171 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: think it was more seeing them doing it or hearing 172 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: what was being played in the house? Do you know 173 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: what I'm saying it was? Would the same have happened 174 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: if it was just hearing recordings? Or do you think 175 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: seeing people played a role in it? Oh? Seeing them 176 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: do it definitely did the community of it, you know, 177 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: because we would get together every Sunday night. My grandparents 178 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: would have friends and family over to their house after 179 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: both church services were over, and they would bring something 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: to eat and they would sit around and play. And 181 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: it was to me it was like, I don't even 182 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: want to use the word accessible, because it was just natural. 183 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: You know. I didn't know everybody's family didn't do that. 184 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: I thought everybody was doing the same stuff. You know. 185 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: My parents didn't play, but they were always there and they, 186 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, were always listening to music or somehow around 187 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: people who were playing music in the room, and yeah, 188 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: I remember, I don't ever remember thinking that looks difficult. 189 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: You know, I just wanted to participate. You know. I 190 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: didn't have a whole lot of friends in school because 191 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: I just wasn't really redneck enough in North Alabama to 192 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: fall in with any of those groups. So at one 193 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: point I realized, Oh, everybody thinks this is cool that 194 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: I play the guitar, So I'm going to do that 195 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: in front of everybody, and they'll be nice to me, 196 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: you know. And that's still I'm still working. I'm still 197 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: going on that principle to this day. Do you do 198 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: you keep a diary? I take a lot of notes 199 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: for songs, A whole lot of notes. Has it always 200 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: been the case? Have you? When did you start taking 201 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: notes for songs? Oh? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, 202 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: probably when twenty years ago. I guess when. I when 203 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: I first got serious about writing songs, when I was 204 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: in college and and I thought, you know, I might 205 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: I might be able to do this and write some 206 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: songs that need to be written rather than just copies 207 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: of things that I've heard other people do. The first 208 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: set of songs that I wrote, I didn't really I 209 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: went to college in Memphis at University in Memphis and 210 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: used to be Memphis State, and I didn't really get 211 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: out and play live or you know. I saw a 212 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: lot of shows and saw a lot of people perform. 213 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: And then I was working at a restaurant and one 214 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: of the guys that worked there at the restaurant with 215 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: me had had a show booked and he asked me 216 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: if I wanted to open for him at this coffee 217 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: shop downtown, and I said, yeah, I'll do that, And 218 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: I didn't have any songs written. I thought, well, I 219 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: don't want to just play cover songs. So I wrote 220 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: like forty minutes worth of songs like overnight pretty much, 221 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: you know, just flipping back and forth between different songs, 222 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: and I wrote enough material timed it out so I 223 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: could go do my opening set, you know, and that 224 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: those songs got I got my first publishing deal off 225 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: of those, and you know, I wound up demoing them 226 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and it got me a lot of attention, you know, locally. 227 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: I was able to take a draw and quit working 228 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: regular jobs and all that kind of stuff from that batch. 229 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: Do the meanings of the songs change for you over 230 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: time or do they tend to stay the same The 231 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: meanings don't change for me, but the significance of them 232 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: changes and everything around them changes. You know. It's like 233 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: an object in a room. Like if you were to 234 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: watch a scene in a movie where somebody filmed, say 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: an ashtray sitting in the middle of a room, but 236 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: they you know, they did it like time lapse, where 237 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: you saw it over the course of twenty years. The 238 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: ash tray would be the same, but the significance of 239 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: the ash tray in the room would be very different. 240 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: The context keep context keeps changing. Yeah, And I think 241 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: for me that's the best way for it to work, 242 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: for me to be able to deliver songs from fifteen 243 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: or twenty years ago, because you know, I got sober 244 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: about seven and a half years ago, and my work changed. 245 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: And how did that happen? What was the motivation to 246 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: get sober? I knew that I needed to. Um. I'd 247 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: been drinking a lot for a long time and doing 248 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: various drugs, and I fell in love with my wife, 249 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: my current wife, who was not my wife at the time. 250 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: I say current wife because she wasn't my wife at 251 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: the time, not because I have plans on her not 252 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: being in the future. UM, Amanda. I knew she wasn't 253 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: gonna put up with that shit, you know, And and 254 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: I think everybody I'd been with in the past would 255 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: put up with it, and she wouldn't. And I thought, well, 256 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to do something, or she tell you 257 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: that you just felt it. Um, Well, they all tell 258 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: you that, I don't think. I don't know. I haven't 259 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: had that experience. Well okay for me, they all told 260 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: me that, but this time I believed it, you know, 261 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: and you know I can't. I came to her one 262 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: night when we were just dating and we were on 263 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: the road together. She's a musician also and a songwriter, 264 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: and I told her I needed to quit drinking. I 265 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: didn't think I could do it on my own, and 266 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: she said, well, if you're sure about that, then you know, 267 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: we'll do what we need to do to make sure 268 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: you quit. And I repeated it again a couple days later, 269 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: and she said, all right, that's it, you know. So 270 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: she called Tracy, my manager, and my mom and a 271 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: few other friends who she didn't really know very well 272 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: at all, in the middle of the night and said 273 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: he needs to go to treatment. And Tracy made the 274 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: arrangements and you know, the accountability of my family and 275 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: my friends. Knowing that I was serious about it caused 276 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: me to fulfill my end of the bargain. And I 277 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: went in, you know, thirty six hours later and haven't 278 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: had a drink since. That's great, and it sounds like 279 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: you wanted it to happen, So yeah, that's a big 280 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: piece of it. It is. And I got lucky because 281 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, I don't have it genetically, and I know 282 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people struggle. You know, a lot of 283 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: people go to rehab multiple times and they fight and 284 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: they fight and they just can't get a handle on it. 285 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: But well, for whatever reason, you know, knock on wood, 286 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: I haven't really had that much desire. There are moments, 287 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: but they pass, you know, and I've learned to be 288 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: grateful enough to talk myself out of those those moments. 289 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, count the things that have happened since the end, 290 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: and pretty soon you're like, yeah, I don't really need 291 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: a drink right now. Maybe I just need to go home. 292 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of Rick's conversation with 293 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: Jason Isabel after the break. We're back with more from 294 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: Jason Isabel. Would you say that your writing is more 295 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: of an intellectual process or is it something else. Yeah, 296 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: it's more intellectual for me. I mean, you know, the 297 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: inspiration Like I've used this quote before, but Chuck Close said, 298 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show 299 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: up and get to work. And I love that because 300 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: if you're not inspired, then you're not an artist. You're 301 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: not paying attention, you don't have the level of awareness 302 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: that you need to have to create. Eight. Um, So 303 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: that's a constant you know. Inspiration is like like heart rate, 304 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: it's always running, it's always there, and all the things 305 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: that I consider to be sort of magical and mystical 306 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: about the process are constant. You know. That's that's I 307 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: think part of the character of being a creative person 308 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: that I think I walk to the grocery store with 309 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: the same level of mysticism as I write a song. 310 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: You know. Um, it's all process. It's it's a way 311 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: of being in the world exactly. It's yeah. So I 312 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't think about creating as a 313 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: supernatural or preternatural or um as an experience that that's 314 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: disconnected from the mathematics of creating. You know, Creating for 315 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: me is solving puzzles. Now, there are when you when 316 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: you solve the puzzle, you do feel rewarded, you know, 317 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: by something great than yourself. I think there's something when 318 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: you hit it just right. Yeah, you know, and you've 319 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: hit it just right many many times, and you probably 320 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: have that feeling where it's like, whoever to just help 321 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: me with that? Thank you? You know, absolutely, because you 322 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: feel at that moment like something's happening that you didn't 323 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: necessarily do all by yourself. Always, yeah, all of it. 324 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: I mean my experience is that we have little to 325 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: do with it. Yeah. Yeah, you show up and pay 326 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: close attention and our patient because that's a big part 327 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: of it, is the patients involved. But a lot of 328 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: it feels like to me, feels like it comes from elsewhere. Yeah. Yeah, 329 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: I can go with that for sure. But I think 330 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: to find it, you know, you have to sometimes you 331 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: have to turn every rock over. Absolutely, You've got to 332 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: be the person that's willing to look in most places. 333 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: And that's I guess goes along with the patients. Yeah, 334 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: in the in the right process. Do you ever think 335 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: of the audience? I try not to. Uh, yeah, I 336 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: think I think I do my best work when I'm 337 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: not doing that, but I'll allow myself to think of 338 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: the audience if it's in the service of challenging them 339 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: or helping in some way. Not I don't. I don't 340 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: think about pleasing them or about meeting their you know, 341 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: requirements or expectations. But I do think about pushing them, 342 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, or maybe presenting things to them in a 343 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: way because like on the last album, I had a 344 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: song called white Man's World that was about privilege and 345 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: about you know, realizing who I am and what opportunities 346 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: I have that some people don't just simply by the 347 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: fact that I'm white and male in America and especially 348 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: in the South, which the song talks about that too. 349 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: M So I was thinking about my audience when I 350 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: wrote that song, but I was thinking about it in 351 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: a way that like, I want to push your buttons 352 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, I want to make you 353 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: consider that you know now that you hold me in 354 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: a certain esteem, you're willing to pay fifty or seventy 355 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: five bucks to come stand and listen to me do 356 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: this for whatever reason. Now, I would like to use 357 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: that to kind of square up on you a little bit. 358 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: Would you play it for me now? Yeah, sure, beautiful, 359 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: thank you beautiful. How did it start that song? I 360 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: think with the groove, And then I thought, this, the 361 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: groove is a little funky, so I have to be 362 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: careful with it, you know, because I really enjoy music 363 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: that used to be called black music. But I'm also 364 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: very careful about making it because I'm not I don't 365 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: feel qualified to make it, you know, not in that way. 366 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: So I think, if I'm gonna make a song that 367 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: has that kind of groove, there needs to be a 368 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: purpose to it, you know, So I need to make 369 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: something that is aware. And it was around the time 370 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: of the presidential election when I was writing this song. 371 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: It was right after the presidential election, and I wrote 372 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: a flurry of songs, as as a lot of songwriters 373 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: did in that week or two and still are, but 374 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: that was one of them. And I thought, what, you know, 375 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: what can I say about who I am and what 376 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: my responsibility is that might sway people a little bit 377 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: and might also, you know, earn my keep as far 378 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: as playing a song with that kind of groove goes, 379 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, because it's a blues really, so it's like, 380 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: if I'm going to play the blues, I better fucking 381 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: sing the blues, and I better do it for the 382 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: right reason, you know, And I think that's that's where 383 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 1: it came from. So I thought, well, what is one 384 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: truth and then let's write another true thing, make them rhyme. 385 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: But I remember writing very easily and comfortably about my 386 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: own admissions in that song about like how I wish 387 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: now that I had stood up and said something when 388 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: I was hearing racist jokes, you know, and writing about 389 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: that aspect of you know, southern that's not necessarily you know, 390 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: more ruralness, but I definitely there's there's a line from Dixieland, 391 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, so it's like I'm talking about I'm talking 392 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: about the South right there. That part was very easy 393 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: as far as working that puzzle that one kind of 394 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: fell out, but getting to the chorus was was difficult 395 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: because you don't want it to be too flippant, you know, 396 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: when you're trying to motivate people to think about, you know, 397 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: something like like a racial division or like privilege, you know, 398 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: you have to look at what happened in a way 399 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: that either keeps it from being repeated or suggests that 400 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: it might not have been the most human course of action, 401 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: or you know, suggest that your perspective might be skewed, 402 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: not necessarily flawed, but you might not be seeing every 403 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: angle to this situation. So that was a that was 404 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: a tough balance for me to figure out how to 405 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: how to talk about race in this way from my 406 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: own perspective. You know, I knew from the onset that 407 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: I was going to have to reveal some things about 408 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: myself in a song like that. You got to be 409 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: more honest than you're comfortable with, or nobody's going to 410 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: give a shit, you know. Um, So that that was 411 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: the that was the hard part of writing that one. 412 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: It wasn't so much the normal puzzle that I'm used to, 413 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, trying to make something meaningful and beautiful. In 414 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: a way, it was the idea of how do I 415 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: dwell all enough on what has happened up until now 416 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: to possibly get some people my audience to reconsider their 417 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: role in it. Do you think that that is even possible? Yeah? Yeah, 418 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: on a small scale, you know. But I choose to 419 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: think that that's possible because it's like I was talking 420 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: to somebody the other day and I was like, Man, 421 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: if you want to think of it this way, it's 422 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: traffic and storms. That's it. That's all that's left of humanity. 423 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: That's all we've got to look forward to. We're going 424 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: to be sitting in traffic until storm kills us. But 425 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: I would rather not, you know, I would rather think maybe, 426 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: maybe sometimes some eighteen year old white guy in a 427 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: fraternity in Georgia, here's that song and thinks, yeah, maybe 428 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: my way of thinking, Maybe my dad wasn't exactly right 429 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: about all that shit. You know, maybe I do have 430 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: a little bit of privilege, and then maybe that'll open 431 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: them up into thinking something. I don't think I'm gonna 432 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: move the all powerful needle, but for me to go 433 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: to sleep at night, I have to think that there's 434 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: some sort of a purpose, you know, motivational in some 435 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: way or another. When I think about protest songs, and 436 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: I'll call that a protest song, I don't know if 437 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: it's it's the strict definition that works. So, yeah, that's 438 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: a that's a badge of honor if we think of it. 439 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: If we think of protest songs, I tend to think 440 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: of them as speaking to like minded people more than 441 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: having the power to change other people. Yeah, I think 442 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: if anything, and this may not be right more often 443 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,959 Speaker 1: than not, if someone didn't agree with what you were 444 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: saying in the song, they would more likely not like 445 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: the song and not maybe not like your other songs 446 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: because of it. But but I've not been to one 447 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: of my concerts those those folks. It's it's an interesting 448 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: it's an interesting dynamic because I'm sort of a country 449 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: singer and I'm sort of a Southern rock singer. Yes, 450 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, And it's not it's not like I'm necessarily 451 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: certain that they look like me. The audience looks like me. 452 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, I can't really, I can't really change that. 453 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I've tried, but there I think are a 454 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: lot of and you know, I've wound up having some 455 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: pretty serious conversations with folks about that. Um, I just 456 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: think I think there's an opportunity there, even though it 457 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: could be a very small I'm talking you know, it 458 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: might be people you could count on if you change 459 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: one person, it's incredible. It is it's incredible, and it's 460 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: worth all the work. Yeah, and there's a lot of 461 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: people out there, I think, compared to other people who 462 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: believe the way that I believe, I think I have 463 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: a lot of open ears from the other side. And 464 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't mean that from the other side like a 465 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: political divide. I mean just a lot of people that 466 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: might listen to what I'm saying that might not have 467 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: necessarily agreed with me before they heard that. And I 468 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: know that is fucking hubris, I know, but we all 469 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: have to be a little bit egomaniacal to do all 470 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: this crazy shit. You know. I used to think that, 471 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: like the Dixie Chicks thing, because that's still something that 472 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: comes up a lot in Nashville, especially probably in a 473 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: lot of other places. You know. I used to think 474 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: that that was because their audience was very different from 475 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: them as far as, you know, the things that they believed. 476 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: But then one day we were playing at the Roundhouse 477 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: in London and the first time I played there, and 478 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: I was walking around the place on the sidewalk and 479 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: it hit me, you know what happened because she's a woman. 480 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: It happened because Natalie is a woman and said those things, 481 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: and she was talking out of turn because she was 482 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: a woman. Because if Tim McGraw had said it, you know, 483 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: he's he's a blue dog Democrat. I don't know if 484 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: he would have said exactly the same thing, but you know, 485 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: it wouldn't It wouldn't have happened. Eric Church has said 486 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: things recently that a lot of his audience disagreed with, 487 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: but they keep on buying records and tickets, and nobody's 488 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: burning Eric Church CDs outside of records radio station, you know. 489 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: So that was a real eye opener for me. That 490 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: was another level of that privilege. And I think, you know, 491 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: I'm a man, and I'm not gonna get black bald 492 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: for saying what I believe quite as easily as Natalie 493 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: might have, you know. And that's another thing. Like the 494 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: responsibility to the blues music that I'm making, I have 495 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: a responsibility to the message itself. You know, you have 496 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: to use that privilege to try to chip away at it. 497 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: I'll say, even from the perspective that I have about 498 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: protest music, it's still even if it only is supporting 499 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: an idea that someone already believes, it still has power. 500 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: It still feels like we're not alone. But I think 501 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: that's the real power of protest songs is more of 502 00:28:54,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: a m It feels like you're part of something bigger 503 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: than yourself, and you don't feel alone. More than getting 504 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: someone else to believe what you believe. Through the song. Yeah, 505 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: so somebody might not give up as quickly if they 506 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: feel that way, they might not give up on the 507 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: fight that quickly as they think. Well maybe so, yeah, 508 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: maybe so. I don't even know if it has to 509 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: do with fighting or not. I think even just the 510 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: just the feeling, not alone, it's a big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 511 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: that's that's true. That's enough and sometimes We'll be back 512 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: with more from Jason Isabel and Rick Rubin after the break. 513 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Jason Isabel. I noticed in 514 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: the song that you played there's no repetition in the chorus. 515 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: So the chorus repeats in the song, but none of 516 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: the words in the chorus repeat. Yeah. Would you say 517 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: that that's a common in your song writing, that there's 518 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: not a lot of repetition. Yeah. Yeah, And I've tried 519 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: to write in more and not had a whole lot 520 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: of success with it. Sometimes I don't even have a chorus. 521 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: A lot of my songs that don't have a chorus 522 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: at all because I just feel like I've got more 523 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: to say to get the story out, you know. Yeah. 524 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: I don't repeat myself a lot. Yeah, there's something interesting 525 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: when a song I like when a phrase can be 526 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: repeated over and over in a song, yet it almost 527 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: feels like you're hearing different things and not hearing different things, 528 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: but it means something different as the song progresses. And 529 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, just like that feeling. And it's so 530 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: interesting how certain phrases it's hard to find a phrase 531 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: that bears repeating. Yeah, but I'm thinking right now, like, 532 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes perfect sense that they would say 533 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: wild horses couldn't drag me away multiple times. Yeah, and 534 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: never have I thought I wish they just said that once. No, this, 535 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm getting some very valuable advice, Like 536 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: thank you first of all very much. It's well good, 537 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: let's do this again sometimes but no, I mean, yeah, 538 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: I appreciate that because you've already told me a few 539 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: things that I'm like filing away in my mind. But yeah, 540 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,239 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it's just not occurred to me. I've 541 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: always thought I've already said that, I don't have to 542 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: say it again. But obviously you're right. A lot of 543 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: the songs that are my favorites do that, you know, 544 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: And there's a reason for it. Yeah, not necessarily to 545 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: introduce new information, but no, and it's not necessarily even laziness. 546 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's refrain, and I don't have refrain a lot. Yeah, yeah, 547 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: but it's interesting when both when it's satisfying to feel that, 548 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: and it's hard, you know, I know from spending time 549 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: working with songwriters, those phrases don't always come so easy. 550 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: And it's miraculous because that when it does come, because 551 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: it's always, or more often than not, a very ordinary phrase. 552 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: So you could have ten ordinary phrase, you could have 553 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: a hundred ordinary phrases, and you can repeat each one 554 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: of those phrases ten times, and ninety nine of those 555 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: it's not interesting and after the third repeat you don't 556 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: want to hear it anymore. But there's somewhere at the 557 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: end to ten you feel like, let's keep going, let's 558 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: keep saying these words over and over because it does 559 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: something else. It has some other power. Yeah, and it 560 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: picks up steam in a way almost like a snowball 561 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: or something or that that you start thinking and I 562 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: don't know if it has to do with what the 563 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: words mean or the what the how they sound, or 564 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: some combination if you can hit on both, and that's 565 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: probably yeah, where it like you almost start deconstructing the 566 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: meaning like the first time, it means what it means 567 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: on the surface, but as the repetitions go, your relationship 568 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: to the phrase changes right right, and like the second 569 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: one can almost be like sarcasm or irony. But then 570 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: after that it gets poignant. It gets like like hallelujah, 571 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: like the Leonard Cohen like he just says Hallelujah over 572 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: and over and a and the first time it's like, 573 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: the second time it's like, whoa hold on? Was that 574 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: second one blasphemy? You know? And the third one it's like, 575 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: oh no, it's all those things and none of those things. Yeah, yeah, 576 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: that's a good that's a good point. I never tried. 577 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever tried it, but I will 578 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: now now that you told me to free of charge. Yeah, 579 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: you're taking from this whatever you I'm taking all of it, 580 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: and whatever works is great. Yeah. Do you want to 581 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: play me another song? Do you have any any new songs, 582 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: anything that's sort of fresh, but yeah, maybe hasn't even 583 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: come out yet. I do, I sure do. I would 584 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 1: love to play I saw I've never heard I'll play 585 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: a song hardly anybody's I think Tracy may have heard 586 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: it once, But beautiful thank you. When did you add it? Um? 587 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: A few months ago? Yeah, about three months ago. I 588 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: guess I've written a few cents, but I think that 589 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: one's the one that I'm probably the most attached to 590 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: right now. The new bunch that had a little bit 591 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: of the repetition that we were just talking about it, 592 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: and right when I got to it, I thought about that, 593 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: and it proved that point of each time he said it, 594 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: it didn't feel like, oh, he's just repeating himself. It 595 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: felt like the emotion deepened with what you were saying 596 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: and with the melody that was working with it. Yeah, 597 00:34:54,640 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: So it really it felt like satisfying, yeah, to hear that. Yeah. 598 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: And it also kind of maybe I let myself do 599 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: it that time, because at first it's my love want change, yes, 600 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: But by the end it's my love want change a thing. 601 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like my love is steady but 602 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: also inconsequential, yes, you know, And I think maybe that's 603 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: why I let myself do it. But now that I 604 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: think about it, also though, I should probably let myself 605 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: do it even when there's not that that twist. Yeah, 606 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: cool man, Yeah, thanks, thank you so much, Thanks for 607 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: having me. Thanks to Jason Isabel for talking with Rick 608 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: at a live show in January. Jason called his new 609 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: album Reunions his best yet. Make sure to check it 610 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: out when it drives. You can hear more from Jason Isabel, 611 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: including the song he wrote for A Star Is Born 612 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: by visiting Broken Record podcast dot com. Also subscribe to 613 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel for bonus content at YouTube dot com 614 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: slash broken record Podcast. Broken Record is produced help from 615 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: Jason gambrel Me LaBelle Martin Gonzalez and Lea Rose Pushkin Industries. 616 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: A theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks 617 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: for listening.