1 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,420 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:23,759 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 2: Was Reconstruction America's greatest missed opportunity or the beginning of 3 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: a story that's still being written? When we were making 4 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: Reconstruction the Unfinished Promise, I sat down with President Barack 5 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:39,220 Speaker 2: Obama and we had a conversation about the period after 6 00:00:39,239 --> 00:00:43,699 Speaker 2: the Civil War, exploring why Reconstruction remains one of the 7 00:00:43,740 --> 00:00:48,090 Speaker 2: most misunderstood chapters in in American history, from Frederick Douglass 8 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,850 Speaker 2: and the Compromise of 1877 to voting rights, public education, 9 00:00:53,390 --> 00:00:57,190 Speaker 2: and today's debates over democracy. The series examines how the 10 00:00:57,250 --> 00:01:01,490 Speaker 2: past continues to echo in the present. It's a conversation 11 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:06,899 Speaker 2: about history, progress, and why democracy is never a finished project. 12 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,220 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy it and find it as interesting 13 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,899 Speaker 2: and as prescient as I did. You can find the 14 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: full series, Reconstruction, The Unfinished Promise, on Audible or wherever 15 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:35,219 Speaker 2: you get podcasts. Reconstruction is not a tentative step. It 16 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 2: is one step forward and then one like. 17 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: A really big step back. 18 00:01:40,419 --> 00:01:43,740 Speaker 2: A couple steps back. And it's the amount of violence 19 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,220 Speaker 2: and it's like it's almost a second Civil War. 20 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:54,810 Speaker 1: What you see in the backlash to Reconstruction is the 21 00:01:54,870 --> 00:02:01,930 Speaker 1: degree to which you never changed hearts and minds. coming 22 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: out of the Civil War. 23 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,100 Speaker 2: One of the things that motivated this project was the 24 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: people don't talk about, Reconstruction is the great forgotten era 25 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,260 Speaker 2: in American history, and I'm still puzzled as to why. 26 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,710 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's that puzzling. The mythology of America, 27 00:02:22,730 --> 00:02:30,250 Speaker 1: about us breaking away from the crown, declaring our independence, 28 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:38,130 Speaker 1: all men are created equal, the yeoman farmers, Walt Whitman, 29 00:02:39,150 --> 00:02:42,610 Speaker 1: there's a whole narrative about who we are as Americans. 30 00:02:44,390 --> 00:02:51,300 Speaker 1: And there's this inconvenient fact, which is that all this 31 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: happened at the same time as you had a economy 32 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:02,910 Speaker 1: in the South based on slavery. chattel slavery. And a 33 00:03:03,090 --> 00:03:10,010 Speaker 1: bloody war was fought to, in part, end slavery, maintain 34 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:17,740 Speaker 1: the Union. And then there was a reconciliation between North 35 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: and South that essentially reinstated or preserved a caste system 36 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,510 Speaker 1: and a hierarchy that the country didn't want to acknowledge. 37 00:03:30,380 --> 00:03:35,860 Speaker 1: until really the second civil rights movement and the upheavals 38 00:03:35,940 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: of the 60s. And so it's not surprising that the 39 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,220 Speaker 1: narratives that emerged in school books or in Hollywood movies 40 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: were not focused on this glaring contradiction to how America 41 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: understood itself and how it wanted to present itself to 42 00:03:57,380 --> 00:03:58,700 Speaker 1: the world and also to its kids. 43 00:03:59,410 --> 00:04:02,010 Speaker 2: Is there a moment when real– when does real democracy 44 00:04:02,050 --> 00:04:05,490 Speaker 2: begin in America? Is that a fair question? 45 00:04:05,810 --> 00:04:09,770 Speaker 1: It is a fair question. I think it's important not 46 00:04:09,890 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: to undersell the achievements of the American Revolution. The Declaration 47 00:04:18,380 --> 00:04:27,070 Speaker 1: of Independence, a war against the crown, the establishment of principles– 48 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: embodied in the Bill of Rights. The notion of citizenship 49 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: as opposed to you are a subject. The notion of 50 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: representative government as opposed to some hereditary monarchy or aristocracy. 51 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,460 Speaker 1: The breakup of a feudal understanding of how societies are organized. 52 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: That's a big deal. That's a seminal moment in human history. 53 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,900 Speaker 1: And the American Revolution helps to accomplish that. And so 54 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: you have a pretty radical experiment from the start in 55 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:20,430 Speaker 1: terms of is it possible for people to organize themselves 56 00:05:20,890 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: and through some representative mechanism have a voice in their 57 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:35,380 Speaker 1: collective lives. But what is absolutely true is that it 58 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:41,339 Speaker 1: is a partial democracy. And it's not just because black 59 00:05:41,380 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: people are not recognized as we part of, we, the people, 60 00:05:46,790 --> 00:05:49,970 Speaker 1: women are just sort of the people because they don't 61 00:05:50,010 --> 00:05:54,730 Speaker 1: get a chance to vote. Initially men without property are 62 00:05:54,770 --> 00:06:02,130 Speaker 1: not considered, uh, part of the decision-making process. You have 63 00:06:02,770 --> 00:06:08,410 Speaker 1: a chamber, the Senate, in which there's no popular vote. 64 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:15,620 Speaker 1: And so there are a whole range of elements to 65 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:21,260 Speaker 1: what we would now consider to be a true democracy 66 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: that are missing from that initial experiment. What makes Reconstruction 67 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:34,170 Speaker 1: so significant is out of the ashes of this horrific 68 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: civil war. You amend the constitution and you begin to 69 00:06:44,060 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: rebuild and reorganize how democracy is supposed to function in 70 00:06:53,700 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: ways that fill some of those holes, fill some of 71 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,370 Speaker 1: those gaps start resolving some of those contradictions that were 72 00:07:04,070 --> 00:07:08,130 Speaker 1: there from the very beginning. The reason Reconstruction is such 73 00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: a fascinating story is here's a moment, the first real 74 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: moment since the founding, in which this idea of perfecting 75 00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:26,230 Speaker 1: the union is attempted in a fairly significant way. And 76 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:30,380 Speaker 1: it peters out. It doesn't get all the way there. 77 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,020 Speaker 1: But what it does is it leaves all these embers. 78 00:07:36,820 --> 00:07:42,670 Speaker 1: It leaves all these ideas and possibilities and points in 79 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:50,130 Speaker 1: certain directions that then allow future generations to draw on 80 00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:56,780 Speaker 1: and inspires others. And it gives us a sense of 81 00:07:56,870 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: how this process of perfecting the union, of creating a 82 00:08:00,860 --> 00:08:07,190 Speaker 1: true democracy, is not this static project where, okay, we 83 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:09,390 Speaker 1: got the words on the page, now it's done, but 84 00:08:09,450 --> 00:08:12,090 Speaker 1: is rather this continuous exercise. 85 00:08:12,130 --> 00:08:19,210 Speaker 2: It makes me think sometimes that our expectations are too high. Like, 86 00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: I remember having a conversation with someone about segregation, about 87 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,530 Speaker 2: how the first generation and second generation results from integrating 88 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:33,489 Speaker 2: schools are disappointing. And there's one answer, which is to 89 00:08:33,870 --> 00:08:35,540 Speaker 2: sort of wring your hands. The other answer is, well, 90 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,020 Speaker 2: why would you expect it to get better in 30 years? 91 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,419 Speaker 2: Why shouldn't we be asking these questions in 75 years? Like, 92 00:08:44,459 --> 00:08:47,099 Speaker 2: these things take time, right? Maybe we should be interested 93 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,749 Speaker 2: in how the children and grandchildren of the people who 94 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:53,530 Speaker 2: first went to integrated schools, how they fare. 95 00:08:53,890 --> 00:08:59,179 Speaker 1: I think you are exactly right. That there's a way 96 00:08:59,260 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: to look at Reconstruction that is shocked and despairing. And 97 00:09:12,579 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: you say, oh, look what happens. You have this moment 98 00:09:16,979 --> 00:09:20,459 Speaker 1: in which America might have gotten it all right, and 99 00:09:21,290 --> 00:09:30,530 Speaker 1: then suddenly it all went to hell. And from our 100 00:09:30,589 --> 00:09:36,189 Speaker 1: vantage point, that is the way I obviously see it. 101 00:09:36,209 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: That's how you feel it, right? The incapacity for people 102 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: in the South, white people in the South, essentially, to 103 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: embrace this new possibility of a multiracial democracy. On the 104 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,020 Speaker 1: other hand, what we know of humans everywhere, what we 105 00:09:56,059 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: know of human history— is that this idea that a 106 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:09,130 Speaker 1: group of people have been utterly defeated in a savage, 107 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:17,089 Speaker 1: bloody war and their entire lives have been upended and 108 00:10:17,569 --> 00:10:21,689 Speaker 1: their conceptions of themselves and their status and their role 109 00:10:21,729 --> 00:10:26,809 Speaker 1: in the world has been shattered. And the notion that 110 00:10:27,809 --> 00:10:32,449 Speaker 1: they would suddenly go, oh, okay, and that this would 111 00:10:32,540 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 1: be an easy process that you could complete in 10 112 00:10:37,359 --> 00:10:45,260 Speaker 1: or 15 or 20 years, well, that defies everything we 113 00:10:45,319 --> 00:10:51,099 Speaker 1: know about people. And so what is remarkable to some 114 00:10:51,140 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: degree when I look at Reconstruction is how radical the 115 00:10:57,219 --> 00:11:02,279 Speaker 1: experiment was. Mm-hmm. The fact that you had essentially a 116 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: Northern occupying army backed by radical Republicans in Congress who 117 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:22,630 Speaker 1: are willing to consistently override the racist sentiments of Johnson, 118 00:11:22,670 --> 00:11:33,530 Speaker 1: the president, and push through legislation and constitutional amendments that 119 00:11:35,370 --> 00:11:43,349 Speaker 1: offer the promise of citizenship and equal rights to people 120 00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:48,780 Speaker 1: who just three or four or five years earlier were slaves, 121 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: or if they were freedmen, according to the Supreme Court 122 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:59,309 Speaker 1: under Dred Scott, did not enjoy any rights that white 123 00:11:59,370 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: people We're bound to respect. You have the highest court 124 00:12:03,939 --> 00:12:07,239 Speaker 1: in the land just a few years earlier saying black 125 00:12:07,260 --> 00:12:13,500 Speaker 1: people in America have no rights that the courts or 126 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,979 Speaker 1: white people generally are bound to respect. And now suddenly 127 00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:25,989 Speaker 1: you have a victorious union that is trying to impose 128 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:33,650 Speaker 1: on a big chunk of the population we're entirely rewriting 129 00:12:33,689 --> 00:12:40,449 Speaker 1: the rules of your relationship between a group of people, which, 130 00:12:40,530 --> 00:12:47,589 Speaker 1: by the way, we think of as a minority with 131 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,300 Speaker 1: respect to the entire U.S. population, but in places like 132 00:12:51,959 --> 00:12:57,939 Speaker 1: Mississippi and South Carolina, we're a majority. And throughout the South, 133 00:12:58,359 --> 00:13:04,119 Speaker 1: constituted 35 40 of the population and and white folks 134 00:13:04,179 --> 00:13:08,339 Speaker 1: are sitting there they're aware how badly these people have 135 00:13:08,359 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: been treated they're aware of what they've done to them 136 00:13:11,620 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: they're harboring uh memories of of the cruelties that have 137 00:13:20,939 --> 00:13:25,460 Speaker 1: been perpetrated on these folks and now suddenly they're seeing 138 00:13:25,479 --> 00:13:28,380 Speaker 1: them in congress and they're seeing them open up stores 139 00:13:28,439 --> 00:13:33,050 Speaker 1: and they're on the streets and and and so in 140 00:13:33,109 --> 00:13:41,059 Speaker 1: that sense what i'm i actually always think of reconstruction 141 00:13:41,449 --> 00:13:45,859 Speaker 1: as yes a tragedy but also. 142 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:52,019 Speaker 2: A hopeful sign a necessary tragedy a necessary tragedy and 143 00:13:52,429 --> 00:13:54,969 Speaker 2: one that Of course it wasn't finished. 144 00:13:56,209 --> 00:14:00,790 Speaker 1: Of course it wasn't completed. It was inevitable that there 145 00:14:00,829 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: was going to be this massive backlash and a violent one. 146 00:14:06,260 --> 00:14:14,239 Speaker 1: And that in turn, you'd then see an ongoing struggle 147 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: that would continue for decades. 148 00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: Is there a case to be made that the intensity 149 00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:25,029 Speaker 2: and the regularity of the backlashes that we see in 150 00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:28,900 Speaker 2: American politics is something distinctive to our political culture and 151 00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:29,499 Speaker 2: social culture? 152 00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: I would say that there is, there's been a lack 153 00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: of a full reckoning in the United States that makes 154 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: these issues come up again and again and again. And 155 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:53,770 Speaker 1: that Some societies, at least, have done a better job 156 00:14:55,930 --> 00:15:01,910 Speaker 1: in looking at their past and saying, that did not work. 157 00:15:02,570 --> 00:15:06,550 Speaker 1: And a national consensus is then built around, let's not 158 00:15:06,670 --> 00:15:18,739 Speaker 1: do that again. As Du Bois said, the issue of 159 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: the 20th century, he said at the time, was the 160 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:23,359 Speaker 1: color line turns out the issue of the 21st century 161 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,590 Speaker 1: is also the color line. It probably 22nd century. It 162 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:33,050 Speaker 1: may be. Um, I don't know that it, I wouldn't 163 00:15:33,090 --> 00:15:36,810 Speaker 1: say though, that it's unique to, to the United States. 164 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about, um, the experience of 165 00:15:41,229 --> 00:15:47,660 Speaker 1: Indian democracy and, and, you know, you have partition and 166 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: millions are killed and it, Muslims and Hindus in India 167 00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:56,220 Speaker 1: are trying to figure out how to deal with this stuff. 168 00:15:56,580 --> 00:16:00,260 Speaker 1: And now you have, you know, a rise of Hindu 169 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:06,340 Speaker 1: nationalism and struggles around that, uh, issues that once you 170 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: thought were resolved in India, you look at Northern Ireland, 171 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:15,739 Speaker 1: you know, the good Friday agreements have held, but anytime 172 00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:21,530 Speaker 1: you visit there, it's always interesting as, as a, African-American 173 00:16:21,830 --> 00:16:25,190 Speaker 1: to visit a place like Northern Ireland and you listen 174 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:34,670 Speaker 1: to the degree of segregation and continued bitterness, anger, suspicion 175 00:16:35,729 --> 00:16:39,610 Speaker 1: between people that to our eyes look exactly the same. 176 00:16:41,229 --> 00:16:43,910 Speaker 2: They're living in an area the size of tiny. 177 00:16:43,989 --> 00:16:51,550 Speaker 1: Yes, but the now self-imposed segregation that remains is as 178 00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:55,610 Speaker 1: powerful as anything we would see here. And it's hard 179 00:16:55,630 --> 00:16:58,850 Speaker 1: to understand, right? Because it's not part of us. 180 00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:02,580 Speaker 2: There's a difference between, in that case, what you have 181 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: are tentative steps. So you would say in Northern Ireland, 182 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,419 Speaker 2: there's no question that the country is much better off 183 00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:13,580 Speaker 2: today than it was in 1975. 184 00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: Well, as we would say about the United States, there's 185 00:17:15,980 --> 00:17:18,650 Speaker 1: no question that you and I sitting here Yes. Having 186 00:17:18,670 --> 00:17:23,610 Speaker 1: a conversation about Reconstruction would not have been happening in 1880. 187 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: But Reconstruction is a slightly— it' s not a tentative step. It 188 00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: is one step forward and then one, like— A. 189 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:33,020 Speaker 1: Really big step back. A really— Several steps back. 190 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:33,980 Speaker 2: A couple steps back. 191 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:34,260 Speaker 1: Yeah. 192 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:37,859 Speaker 2: Like, the intensity of that is what's so— and it's the 193 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:42,430 Speaker 2: amount of violence and it's like— it' s almost a second Civil War. 194 00:17:42,450 --> 00:17:50,610 Speaker 1: Well, it is the— What you see in the backlash 195 00:17:50,630 --> 00:18:01,690 Speaker 1: to Reconstruction is the degree to which you never changed 196 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:06,660 Speaker 1: hearts and minds coming out of the Civil War. There 197 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: wasn't the sort of not just defeat militarily, but also 198 00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:24,530 Speaker 1: a a restructuring of the understanding that Southern whites had 199 00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:29,150 Speaker 1: about what their privileges and rights were and how their 200 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:37,330 Speaker 1: society should be organized. And so they effectively retreated for 201 00:18:37,390 --> 00:18:44,510 Speaker 1: a while and then they waited out the federal government 202 00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: and waited until the occupation ended, essentially, and then they 203 00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:57,470 Speaker 1: reconstituted a version of their society that they preferred. And 204 00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:05,460 Speaker 1: this is where the role of history comes in, how 205 00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:12,380 Speaker 1: Reconstruction was depicted, the stories that were told in school 206 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: books and in Birth of a Nation books, about how 207 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:25,230 Speaker 1: terrible these ignorant Black people suddenly taking over government and 208 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:36,790 Speaker 1: assaulting our women and running down our economies and how 209 00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:41,870 Speaker 1: we wrested it back. The whole lost cause mythology, which 210 00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:45,850 Speaker 1: we're even now still reckoning with because... You have all 211 00:19:45,870 --> 00:19:54,860 Speaker 1: these monuments to the valor of the Confederate soldiers, the 212 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,330 Speaker 1: romance of Gone with the Wind. These are all things 213 00:19:58,370 --> 00:20:00,580 Speaker 1: that we grew up in. but it had to do 214 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:10,850 Speaker 1: with a very specific cultural project, which was to justify, solidify, 215 00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:16,550 Speaker 1: rationalize the maintenance of a caste system. And that never 216 00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:17,450 Speaker 1: fully went away. 217 00:20:17,470 --> 00:20:20,540 Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder... This is going to seem like a 218 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: trivial suggestion, but I feel there's great importance to these 219 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,260 Speaker 2: symbolic things. Part of the problem is we say that 220 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,250 Speaker 2: the Civil War ended with... We mark the end of 221 00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:39,750 Speaker 2: the Civil War with the end of the initial military phase. Really, 222 00:20:39,770 --> 00:20:42,670 Speaker 2: the Civil War ends in 1877 with the collapse of Reconstruction. 223 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:46,149 Speaker 2: If we thought about the war that way, then we 224 00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:47,190 Speaker 2: understand it very differently. 225 00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:53,659 Speaker 1: Because essentially what you have is... An armistice. Essentially what 226 00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:01,580 Speaker 1: you have is in 1877 with the compromise that year, 227 00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:08,710 Speaker 1: that's the real peace treaty between North and South. And 228 00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:15,780 Speaker 1: the North essentially says, okay, you guys are readmitted and 229 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:20,700 Speaker 1: fully redeemed. The union's been saved. the initial project that 230 00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:27,270 Speaker 1: Lincoln called for when he initiated the Civil War in 231 00:21:27,290 --> 00:21:34,630 Speaker 1: the face of succession. That problem's been solved. Technically, slavery 232 00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:42,350 Speaker 1: no longer exists. The 13th Amendment survives. And otherwise, we're 233 00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:46,330 Speaker 1: back to you guys running things how you want down there, 234 00:21:46,370 --> 00:21:49,570 Speaker 1: and we'll run things how we want up here. And 235 00:21:49,610 --> 00:21:58,100 Speaker 1: that was the true peace treaty. And it obviously left 236 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: Black folks in the South extraordinarily vulnerable and in part 237 00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:14,370 Speaker 1: prompted the Great Migration and it shaped our history. But 238 00:22:14,650 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that what had what it did was 239 00:22:18,860 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: to allow for this obfuscation, this, this, this erasure of, um, 240 00:22:29,340 --> 00:22:32,580 Speaker 1: what the stakes were and what the possibilities were. But, 241 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:42,930 Speaker 1: but that's what, um, that that's how our culture was structured. 242 00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:48,530 Speaker 1: As I said, to justify, to reconcile, um, this glaring 243 00:22:48,790 --> 00:22:57,330 Speaker 1: contradiction at the heart of our self-conception. And the degree 244 00:22:57,350 --> 00:23:05,580 Speaker 1: to which these really hard questions were never fully processed, 245 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: I think accounts for the reason why you can still 246 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: get these fierce episodes of backlash. Because They've never really 247 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:28,620 Speaker 1: been talked about, surfaced, resolved. There hasn't been both acknowledgement 248 00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:36,850 Speaker 1: and accountability, which means there also hasn't been the possibilities 249 00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:43,290 Speaker 1: of forgiveness and reconciliation. It all just washes around. 250 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,850 Speaker 2: The Compromise of 1877, I mean, it's such a Pontius 251 00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:58,210 Speaker 2: Pilate moment. And it makes me wonder about the kind 252 00:23:58,250 --> 00:24:02,870 Speaker 2: of psychology of the compromisers. I mean, it's weird because 253 00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:07,670 Speaker 2: you just went through, a dozen years ago, this unbelievably 254 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:12,390 Speaker 2: bloody conflict. I mean, you sacrificed hundreds of thousands of 255 00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: your countrymen's lives. You devastated the entire country. And then 256 00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:23,370 Speaker 2: after 12 years past and you're like, well, kind of shrug, 257 00:24:23,410 --> 00:24:23,750 Speaker 2: let's just. 258 00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:25,050 Speaker 1: Never mind? 259 00:24:25,390 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: Never mind. It's like a never mind moment. It's like 260 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: they wash their hands and they say, you know, what 261 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: does Pontius Pilate say? Take this from me? I've forgotten that. But, like, 262 00:24:37,780 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: I struggle to kind of understand what's going through the 263 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,250 Speaker 2: minds of those when they shrug. 264 00:24:43,860 --> 00:24:45,109 Speaker 1: I think one of the things is. 265 00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: Important to understand, we tend to look at all these 266 00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:06,220 Speaker 1: issues through the lens of race entirely. And the truth is, 267 00:25:06,660 --> 00:25:12,030 Speaker 1: is that there are all these other factors that in 268 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:16,859 Speaker 1: the minds of these politicians at the time. Mm-hmm. are 269 00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:23,070 Speaker 1: just as important and as relevant and their notions of states' rights. 270 00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:29,629 Speaker 1: And there are notions of the limits and constraints on 271 00:25:29,850 --> 00:25:37,060 Speaker 1: federal government power. And there are notions of commerce and money. 272 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,060 Speaker 1: And all these things are happening in the midst of 273 00:25:42,220 --> 00:25:54,940 Speaker 1: a really wildly unregulated, fluctuating, wild west economic atmosphere. You're 274 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: getting these huge depressions and massive unemployment. And there are 275 00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: debates about labor rights in the north as people are 276 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:14,010 Speaker 1: getting into factories. And there's agitation among workers for better 277 00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:19,750 Speaker 1: working conditions and better wages. And And so you have 278 00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:30,340 Speaker 1: elites who have a whole host of interests. And some 279 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,740 Speaker 1: of them think how black people are being treated and 280 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,900 Speaker 1: how we restructure our democracy is of the highest priority. 281 00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: And other people are thinking, you know what? We need 282 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: to stabilize the economy. And some are thinking, you know, 283 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: I'm trying to build a railroad here and I need 284 00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:01,619 Speaker 1: a deal with this other legislator. And some of them 285 00:27:01,660 --> 00:27:06,900 Speaker 1: are thinking we can't maintain taxes that are required in 286 00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:12,990 Speaker 1: order for us to keep federal troops occupying these Confederate 287 00:27:13,030 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: states in perpetuity because we have other expenses. And so 288 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,020 Speaker 1: for us, looking back, we're saying to ourselves, what other 289 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:32,180 Speaker 1: issue was relevant? But for them at the time, it 290 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,770 Speaker 1: was one of the issues that was relevant. And I 291 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,950 Speaker 1: think that part of what also makes the Compromise of 292 00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:52,490 Speaker 1: 1877 so relevant bitter in some cases, certainly for African 293 00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: Americans when you know that history, is there is an 294 00:27:56,740 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: echo across American history of at some point even whites 295 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,340 Speaker 1: who are sympathetic to the cause of equality and human 296 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:23,910 Speaker 1: rights only being willing to carry out that principle so far. Yeah. Right? 297 00:28:24,370 --> 00:28:28,190 Speaker 2: You know, going back to this question of how inadequately 298 00:28:28,650 --> 00:28:32,250 Speaker 2: we have accounted for this period, if we're doing American 299 00:28:32,290 --> 00:28:35,290 Speaker 2: history over again, not only do we say the Civil 300 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:38,770 Speaker 2: War ends in 1877, but Frederick Douglass is a founding father. 301 00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:40,170 Speaker 1: He really is. 302 00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:40,770 Speaker 2: He really is. 303 00:28:42,370 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: You know, I... There is... And that's why it's so 304 00:28:48,020 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: interesting to see today, this contest over what is the 305 00:28:57,140 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: dominant narrative of America. And, you know, you have an 306 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: administration that is trying to change, you know, the plaques 307 00:29:07,710 --> 00:29:09,990 Speaker 1: at national monuments. 308 00:29:10,150 --> 00:29:14,610 Speaker 2: Like they don't have enough on their hands. Yeah, right. 309 00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:20,890 Speaker 1: But it does speak to the power of stories. There 310 00:29:21,070 --> 00:29:30,860 Speaker 1: are figures that um because they hold political office because 311 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: they are men because they are white because they are 312 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: titans of industry because they hold traditional stations that we 313 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:46,390 Speaker 1: understand uh have power um we think of them as 314 00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: the history makers right and you have all these people 315 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,940 Speaker 1: who may not have occupied formal positions of power who 316 00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:09,030 Speaker 1: entirely shape or bend the course of our narrative. 317 00:30:09,170 --> 00:30:11,820 Speaker 2: And this is why I think he belongs in that 318 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,180 Speaker 2: kind of pantheon of founding father, that he sees the best. 319 00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:15,700 Speaker 1: Yes. 320 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: And he also is clear eyed about who we are 321 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,860 Speaker 2: and what we're capable of. And that's, if you read 322 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,780 Speaker 2: the Federalist Papers, that's what they are. They are, Madison 323 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: is both, has a vision and he's also incredibly. 324 00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:28,500 Speaker 1: Correct. 325 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,770 Speaker 2: He's aware of like, this thing could follow, you know, 326 00:30:30,790 --> 00:30:35,210 Speaker 2: what's the favorite, what's the famous Ben Franklin? Uh, if, uh, 327 00:30:35,970 --> 00:30:38,170 Speaker 2: We have a republic if we can keep it. 328 00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:39,230 Speaker 1: If we can keep it. Exactly. 329 00:30:39,290 --> 00:30:41,170 Speaker 2: Same thing. This is a grand thing, but it's going 330 00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:41,690 Speaker 2: to be hard. 331 00:30:41,730 --> 00:30:53,790 Speaker 1: And that's what Douglass understands. And that sensibility is what 332 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:59,310 Speaker 1: we want in our leaders. And it is a sensibility 333 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:07,250 Speaker 1: that we want our kids to learn from history. at 334 00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:11,710 Speaker 1: least I do, right? And that is not some rosy-eyed, 335 00:31:11,730 --> 00:31:20,890 Speaker 1: you know, sanitized version of American history, but a clear-eyed 336 00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: understanding of, yes, we stole land, we took land from 337 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: previous occupants. America was built on violence and subjugation. And 338 00:31:36,940 --> 00:31:44,750 Speaker 1: and chicanery, and confidence men, and shenanigans, and corruption. But 339 00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:56,410 Speaker 1: it is also this amazing expression of human possibility. Thomas Jefferson, yes, 340 00:31:56,470 --> 00:32:04,650 Speaker 1: he had slaves. And, not but, and he penned some 341 00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:09,030 Speaker 1: of the most important words that were ever written in 342 00:32:09,070 --> 00:32:15,670 Speaker 1: the annals of humanity. And being able to maintain those 343 00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: two ideas at the same time is what both can 344 00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: inspire you to keep going and make the world and 345 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,660 Speaker 1: the country better and not sink in despair, but also 346 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:41,530 Speaker 1: to understand the challenges, and the persistence that will be 347 00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:45,230 Speaker 1: required to overcome those challenges if you want to get 348 00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:46,450 Speaker 1: to where we want to go. 349 00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:49,970 Speaker 2: I want to go back to something that we skipped 350 00:32:50,030 --> 00:32:52,390 Speaker 2: over that I've been thinking about as you were talking about. 351 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: Is it useful at all to wonder about what the 352 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: country looks like if Reconstruction had not been defeated? Is 353 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:03,780 Speaker 2: that even a possibility? 354 00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:11,490 Speaker 1: I think you can imagine scenarios in which somebody other 355 00:33:11,530 --> 00:33:19,260 Speaker 1: than Andrew Johnson is Lincoln's vice president. Either Lincoln doesn't 356 00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: get shot, Booth misses, or his vice president is somebody 357 00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:28,630 Speaker 1: who is a wiser, more thoughtful leader. 358 00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:33,090 Speaker 2: We should briefly pause on What a disaster, Andrew Johnson. 359 00:33:33,150 --> 00:33:37,270 Speaker 2: I mean, Andrew Johnson is like— He's terrible. He's like— it' s 360 00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:37,850 Speaker 2: really hard to find somebody as bad as that. And 361 00:33:37,870 --> 00:33:40,250 Speaker 2: there is some stiff competition of late. 362 00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,890 Speaker 1: There is, just generally. But he's terrible, right? He just— he' s petty. 363 00:33:45,930 --> 00:33:50,710 Speaker 1: He's small-minded. He's a drunk. He is not particularly deft 364 00:33:51,390 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: in handling his own party, the other party. And so 365 00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:03,270 Speaker 1: he's a disaster. You can imagine a situation in which 366 00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:08,170 Speaker 1: a better leader, a better statesman, is working with a 367 00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: Republican Congress, being more strategic about how are we going 368 00:34:14,590 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: to institutionalize both the Reconstruction legislation that's been passed? How 369 00:34:25,839 --> 00:34:28,900 Speaker 1: do we make sure that the Freedmen Bureau efforts stick? 370 00:34:31,819 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: The 13th, 14th, 15th Amendments are carried out effectively. What 371 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: can we compromise? Because we know there's going to be 372 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: resistance down there. What can't we compromise? You can imagine 373 00:34:45,359 --> 00:34:49,700 Speaker 1: somebody working that through in a way that you did 374 00:34:49,779 --> 00:35:03,930 Speaker 1: not end up with a violent, brutal reinstitution of cast 375 00:35:04,430 --> 00:35:10,329 Speaker 1: and the restrictions on Black people's ability to just live 376 00:35:10,350 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: their lives and the lynchings and the horrors of that era. 377 00:35:21,219 --> 00:35:27,350 Speaker 1: And had that process been less violent, even if it 378 00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:32,100 Speaker 1: wasn't as quick as from modern standards we would now judge. 379 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: Let's say that there was enforcement, but there were still 380 00:35:40,919 --> 00:35:44,330 Speaker 1: social codes about no racial mixing or we're not going 381 00:35:44,350 --> 00:35:49,829 Speaker 1: to take on anti-miscegenation laws. You can picture something that 382 00:35:50,129 --> 00:35:58,339 Speaker 1: ends up being more gradual, gentler, not perfect, but ushering 383 00:35:58,419 --> 00:36:01,910 Speaker 1: in maybe quicker the kinds of changes that we would 384 00:36:01,950 --> 00:36:06,820 Speaker 1: end up seeing come about in the 60s and the 70s. 385 00:36:06,810 --> 00:36:10,060 Speaker 1: It would be less wrenching. But, you know, I mean, 386 00:36:10,089 --> 00:36:13,209 Speaker 1: that's speculation. That's true about all of human history, right? 387 00:36:13,980 --> 00:36:18,860 Speaker 1: I mean, there are all kinds of junctures and moments 388 00:36:18,919 --> 00:36:23,459 Speaker 1: that we look at and say, if humans weren't so 389 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:28,979 Speaker 1: stupid or so venal or so greedy or so cowardly 390 00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:32,030 Speaker 1: or ignorant... Things could have been better. 391 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:34,549 Speaker 2: There is this thing that like, it is so often 392 00:36:34,569 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: the case that at pivotal moments in history, we're blessed 393 00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: with extraordinary leaders, right? We have FDR during the Depression. 394 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: England gets Churchill, you know, and we're like, in this era, 395 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,339 Speaker 2: we're two thirds of the way there. We have Douglas, 396 00:36:50,819 --> 00:36:54,620 Speaker 2: we have Lincoln. And then, you know, the third leg 397 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,819 Speaker 2: of the stool is this. 398 00:36:57,419 --> 00:37:01,660 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is always... It is a classic 399 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:08,830 Speaker 1: example of this debate about history and how much of 400 00:37:08,910 --> 00:37:14,009 Speaker 1: it is determined by amazing individuals and how much of 401 00:37:14,149 --> 00:37:19,110 Speaker 1: it is determined by just technological trends or societal trends 402 00:37:19,149 --> 00:37:22,749 Speaker 1: that we have no control over. And I think this 403 00:37:22,850 --> 00:37:26,859 Speaker 1: is a pretty clear example that it's both. It makes 404 00:37:26,919 --> 00:37:31,169 Speaker 1: a big difference that Lincoln's not there post-war. There's no doubt. 405 00:37:32,089 --> 00:37:35,549 Speaker 2: How do you... Curious about how you think about this, 406 00:37:36,109 --> 00:37:42,379 Speaker 2: the kind of general project of multiracial democracy now. Like we're, 407 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,180 Speaker 2: you know, it's impossible to spend a lot of time 408 00:37:45,259 --> 00:37:48,959 Speaker 2: thinking about reconstruction without reflecting on the present day, right? 409 00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: Because these issues are. 410 00:37:50,540 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: Well, they're still there. If somebody is asking, why is 411 00:37:54,160 --> 00:38:00,860 Speaker 1: it relevant to talk about reconstruction? It... I have to 412 00:38:01,270 --> 00:38:06,310 Speaker 1: describe for them the degree to which we're having the 413 00:38:06,370 --> 00:38:12,989 Speaker 1: same arguments. The issues of how are we going to 414 00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:19,569 Speaker 1: help the freed people who've been enslaved? What are we 415 00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:22,709 Speaker 1: going to give them to allow them to have a 416 00:38:22,770 --> 00:38:26,910 Speaker 1: go at life? What does real freedom mean? You trace 417 00:38:27,009 --> 00:38:32,169 Speaker 1: that debate of 40 acres and a mule, and public education. 418 00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:35,070 Speaker 1: And you can trace it all the way through to 419 00:38:35,509 --> 00:38:43,819 Speaker 1: debates about welfare and debates about now DEI. And, you know, 420 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,580 Speaker 1: do we as a society have an obligation to address 421 00:38:48,219 --> 00:38:55,059 Speaker 1: past injustices that have been, you know, institutionalized or left 422 00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,729 Speaker 1: a legacy of poverty? So we're having that argument. when 423 00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:06,029 Speaker 1: you look at issues of state versus federal power and 424 00:39:07,930 --> 00:39:13,220 Speaker 1: how do we protect the rights of all citizens, both 425 00:39:13,299 --> 00:39:19,299 Speaker 1: against states that may be abusing the people who live there, 426 00:39:19,399 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: but also against the federal government that at any point 427 00:39:22,399 --> 00:39:26,980 Speaker 1: might decide it wants to bully people around it. Those 428 00:39:27,020 --> 00:39:32,249 Speaker 1: issues are still Obviously, more directly, we're having debates now 429 00:39:32,330 --> 00:39:35,770 Speaker 1: about voting rights, and you've got a Supreme Court that 430 00:39:36,089 --> 00:39:43,419 Speaker 1: has systematically weakened the possibilities of enforcing voting rights in 431 00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:51,379 Speaker 1: our democracy. And we have a politics now that, at 432 00:39:51,419 --> 00:39:54,569 Speaker 1: least one of our major parties, has been captured by 433 00:39:54,649 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: politics that is not that subtle anymore. about suggesting that 434 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,650 Speaker 1: we the people means a certain kind of people. That 435 00:40:08,009 --> 00:40:11,950 Speaker 1: when you have the vice president, the current vice president 436 00:40:11,989 --> 00:40:17,350 Speaker 1: making a speech that is basically a blood and soil 437 00:40:17,489 --> 00:40:24,219 Speaker 1: version of we the people. That it matters who your 438 00:40:24,259 --> 00:40:28,469 Speaker 1: parents were and how long they've been here. despite him 439 00:40:28,489 --> 00:40:31,230 Speaker 1: being married to an immigrant, a daughter of an immigrant himself. 440 00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:37,459 Speaker 1: You know, that echoes then ideas about who can be 441 00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:41,899 Speaker 1: a citizen, who belongs, who gets to make decisions. So 442 00:40:42,399 --> 00:40:48,729 Speaker 1: all these issues are still being debated, sometimes not as 443 00:40:48,850 --> 00:40:52,629 Speaker 1: bluntly and explicitly as they have in the past, but 444 00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:59,649 Speaker 1: they're still there. And What I would say, though, is 445 00:41:04,629 --> 00:41:08,049 Speaker 1: in the same way that we were talking earlier about 446 00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:13,610 Speaker 1: the Constitution, and you get that equal protection language in 447 00:41:13,649 --> 00:41:17,999 Speaker 1: the Constitution, and it may not be observed, and we 448 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: may be shocked and appalled by the gap between those 449 00:41:21,879 --> 00:41:26,140 Speaker 1: words and the reality, and It may be frustrating that 450 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:31,259 Speaker 1: we have to file lawsuits to vindicate those words, but 451 00:41:31,279 --> 00:41:36,900 Speaker 1: they still count. In that same way, I would argue 452 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:44,370 Speaker 1: that the progress that we've seen over your lifetime and 453 00:41:44,430 --> 00:41:55,390 Speaker 1: mine in creating a multiracial democracy, that stuff sticks. And Yep. 454 00:41:56,390 --> 00:42:00,709 Speaker 1: That's progress. And, and so I, I, I don't get 455 00:42:00,850 --> 00:42:05,170 Speaker 1: cynical and look back. I don't subscribe to the idea 456 00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: that because this has always been a theme in America, 457 00:42:10,419 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 1: because we will often be disappointed by how American society 458 00:42:18,859 --> 00:42:26,770 Speaker 1: responds to racial discrimination and injustice, uh, Because at any moment, 459 00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:33,860 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of caste thinking can flare up 460 00:42:34,569 --> 00:42:45,700 Speaker 1: and be dangerous and violent and cruel. That doesn't mean 461 00:42:45,819 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: that we don't have evidence of. 462 00:42:52,879 --> 00:42:52,999 Speaker 2: That. 463 00:42:53,879 --> 00:42:57,069 Speaker 1: Better version of America. We have evidence of it. We've 464 00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: seen it. 465 00:42:58,469 --> 00:43:03,739 Speaker 2: The example you gave is actually a lovely illustration of this. 466 00:43:05,399 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 2: A hundred years ago, a vice president could not stand 467 00:43:08,839 --> 00:43:11,390 Speaker 2: up and make a nativist argument if he was married 468 00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 2: to the daughter of an Indian immigrant. But today he can. 469 00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 2: So we move from malice to hypocrisy. That's progress. 470 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:23,250 Speaker 1: That is progress. Listen, hypocrisy is progress. It is. Because 471 00:43:23,969 --> 00:43:32,450 Speaker 1: it means that you feel guilty enough to either lie 472 00:43:32,469 --> 00:43:33,770 Speaker 1: to yourself or others. 473 00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:34,370 Speaker 2: Yeah. 474 00:43:35,609 --> 00:43:42,339 Speaker 1: And that is better than not even being able to 475 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: even thinking about the idea that maybe you're doing something wrong. Yeah. Yeah, 476 00:43:46,759 --> 00:43:49,439 Speaker 1: my mother, you know, she used to always say, oh, 477 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:54,499 Speaker 1: I think guilt's a highly underrated emotion. And yeah, if 478 00:43:54,580 --> 00:43:56,999 Speaker 1: I tell you to do something, you mentioned earlier, the 479 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: rule of parenting, if I tell you to do something 480 00:43:59,460 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: and you know it's wrong and you hide it and 481 00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:04,660 Speaker 1: then you kind of try to do it anyway, well, 482 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:06,779 Speaker 1: at least I know I've planted the seed. 483 00:44:06,799 --> 00:44:07,900 Speaker 2: You've set the standard. 484 00:44:07,980 --> 00:44:13,479 Speaker 1: And that's part of what part of the reason why 485 00:44:13,620 --> 00:44:19,610 Speaker 1: I don't deem Reconstruction this complete failure. And somebody like 486 00:44:19,649 --> 00:44:25,850 Speaker 1: an Eric Foner, a great historian who resuscitated and re-evaluated 487 00:44:28,529 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: this story that Reconstruction had been an utter failure. One 488 00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:38,420 Speaker 1: of the important points he makes is all these seeds 489 00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: are planted and not all of them grow. Some of 490 00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: them are dormant for a very long time, for decades. 491 00:44:47,359 --> 00:44:54,379 Speaker 1: But both you and I and our kids have benefited 492 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: from the fruits of trees that were planted during Reconstruction. 493 00:44:59,319 --> 00:45:04,259 Speaker 1: You were saying earlier that the Civil War doesn't end 494 00:45:04,279 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: right in 1865. There continues to be resistance in the South. 495 00:45:11,279 --> 00:45:14,749 Speaker 1: One of the best examples of something that was never 496 00:45:14,810 --> 00:45:21,249 Speaker 1: taught in school were the black coats. And I always 497 00:45:21,330 --> 00:45:24,310 Speaker 1: used to assign this when I was teaching constitutional law, 498 00:45:24,489 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: I would actually, you can read them. They're still available 499 00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:32,420 Speaker 1: and you can see these laws that were passed by 500 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:41,170 Speaker 1: the Confederate States after having been defeated. And they were 501 00:45:42,109 --> 00:45:45,969 Speaker 1: give you a sense of the degree to which, um, 502 00:45:48,259 --> 00:45:56,039 Speaker 1: the entire possibility for freed slaves to live, survive, have 503 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:02,559 Speaker 1: a trade work was just completely blocked, right? So they, 504 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,530 Speaker 1: they would essentially say, um, if you want to practice 505 00:46:06,569 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: a trade, you know, you have to pay a $ 10 tax. 506 00:46:08,609 --> 00:46:15,390 Speaker 1: If you, um, They would have vagrancy laws in them 507 00:46:15,669 --> 00:46:17,370 Speaker 1: where they said, if you don't have a job and 508 00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:22,770 Speaker 1: you're just hanging out listlessly, then the state has the 509 00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:25,149 Speaker 1: right to put you to work on a field because 510 00:46:25,169 --> 00:46:29,820 Speaker 1: you can't be a vagrant. Black folks can't practice a trade. 511 00:46:31,020 --> 00:46:36,939 Speaker 1: They can't enter into contracts. Obviously, you can't serve as 512 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,659 Speaker 1: a witness and you certainly can't serve on a jury. 513 00:46:40,219 --> 00:46:50,339 Speaker 1: So what happens is that the ability of these so-called 514 00:46:50,419 --> 00:46:55,660 Speaker 1: freed people to function in any way, to not be 515 00:46:55,700 --> 00:47:05,189 Speaker 1: entirely vulnerable to the old system is completely blocked. And 516 00:47:05,230 --> 00:47:07,900 Speaker 1: the reason I guess that's important is just you were 517 00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:12,140 Speaker 1: asking earlier about how does things like the Compromise of 518 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:18,620 Speaker 1: 1877 happened. We so underestimate, I think, look, I'm not 519 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: a materialist. I think ideas other than money and commerce matter. 520 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,739 Speaker 1: But the degree to which the economic underpinnings of the 521 00:47:31,819 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: entire Southern economy had been based on slave labor and 522 00:47:38,660 --> 00:47:44,629 Speaker 1: the desperation with which elites, even post-war are thinking, if 523 00:47:44,750 --> 00:47:52,769 Speaker 1: we don't get that back, then the source of all 524 00:47:52,830 --> 00:47:58,549 Speaker 1: of our wealth, economic power status will be undermined. Um, 525 00:47:59,469 --> 00:48:02,509 Speaker 1: that I think is something that oftentimes doesn't get talked 526 00:48:02,549 --> 00:48:05,650 Speaker 1: about enough. So that was one thing I wanted to say. 527 00:48:05,879 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: And then the other thing I touched on, but I 528 00:48:07,379 --> 00:48:11,219 Speaker 1: just want to emphasize, um, One of the things I 529 00:48:11,279 --> 00:48:15,500 Speaker 1: love when you read about Reconstruction is these narratives about 530 00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:27,689 Speaker 1: teachers starting schools and how much Black folks understood literacy 531 00:48:27,969 --> 00:48:35,830 Speaker 1: and education as integrally tied to freedom. That if I 532 00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:41,249 Speaker 1: can read, if I can write, if if I can 533 00:48:42,350 --> 00:48:47,750 Speaker 1: do my arithmetic, that unlocks for me freedom and power 534 00:48:50,830 --> 00:48:55,589 Speaker 1: in ways that can't be taken away from me. And 535 00:48:56,710 --> 00:49:01,499 Speaker 1: the project of starting public schools, and you see these, 536 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: we were talking about all these black members of Congress 537 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: and state legislatures, the degree to which They thought our 538 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,749 Speaker 1: number one project here is let's start a bunch of 539 00:49:14,770 --> 00:49:18,510 Speaker 1: schools to make sure that our people have a chance 540 00:49:18,529 --> 00:49:19,589 Speaker 1: to learn how to read and write. 541 00:49:19,830 --> 00:49:22,489 Speaker 2: It's the one thing that the white majority couldn't constrain. 542 00:49:24,029 --> 00:49:24,350 Speaker 1: Learning. 543 00:49:24,750 --> 00:49:26,650 Speaker 2: Yeah. Can't block that. 544 00:49:26,910 --> 00:49:30,549 Speaker 1: We can lock this in our heads. And they understood that. that. And, 545 00:49:31,330 --> 00:49:38,629 Speaker 1: you know, it becomes HBCUs. But it also influences generally 546 00:49:38,850 --> 00:49:43,859 Speaker 1: this notion that then carries over to the broader society 547 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:53,070 Speaker 1: of public education, that citizenship, equality— power, all of that 548 00:49:54,910 --> 00:50:02,390 Speaker 1: is tied to our ability to, to understand and, and, and, 549 00:50:02,669 --> 00:50:09,219 Speaker 1: and communicate and, and analyze, uh, the societies that we're in. That, 550 00:50:09,299 --> 00:50:11,740 Speaker 1: that's what gives us agency and that's what gives us power. 551 00:50:11,759 --> 00:50:14,899 Speaker 1: And I, and I think that that's so important from 552 00:50:14,940 --> 00:50:25,020 Speaker 1: my perspective, both to understand, um, How much common sense 553 00:50:26,779 --> 00:50:31,300 Speaker 1: these folks had coming out of subjugation? They were paying attention. 554 00:50:32,739 --> 00:50:35,519 Speaker 1: They had good instincts about what it was that they 555 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: should be striving for, what would make those words on 556 00:50:40,259 --> 00:50:48,489 Speaker 1: paper real. That was powerful. And what it also reminds 557 00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:55,259 Speaker 1: me is, today, the degree to which not just the 558 00:50:55,319 --> 00:51:00,490 Speaker 1: black community, but Americans generally will devalue education, the degree 559 00:51:00,529 --> 00:51:07,770 Speaker 1: to which you start getting an anti-intellectualism in our culture 560 00:51:07,830 --> 00:51:18,999 Speaker 1: and our politics, why that is contrary to citizenship and 561 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,700 Speaker 1: equality and power. And, and, and, you know, you want 562 00:51:22,879 --> 00:51:28,549 Speaker 1: young people to understand there's a reason why folks who 563 00:51:28,569 --> 00:51:32,969 Speaker 1: had just been freed, they wanted land so they could, 564 00:51:34,509 --> 00:51:39,649 Speaker 1: you know, grow their own crops and feed themselves. They 565 00:51:39,710 --> 00:51:43,769 Speaker 1: also wanted to be able to read. And so, you know, 566 00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:47,049 Speaker 1: that's something that now is available to all of us. Yeah. 567 00:51:47,489 --> 00:51:48,089 Speaker 1: We should try it. 568 00:51:48,489 --> 00:51:52,129 Speaker 2: Part of the Reconstruction Project is to populate politics with 569 00:51:52,310 --> 00:51:52,830 Speaker 2: black people. 570 00:51:53,029 --> 00:51:53,769 Speaker 1: Yeah. 571 00:51:54,469 --> 00:52:00,089 Speaker 2: And when 100 some odd years later, you're the only 572 00:52:00,930 --> 00:52:03,450 Speaker 2: black person in the Senate when you first elected. 573 00:52:03,730 --> 00:52:08,950 Speaker 1: Yeah, in 2004. 2004. And I'm still there. At that point, 574 00:52:09,149 --> 00:52:13,109 Speaker 1: I was the only African-American out of 100 senators. Yeah. 575 00:52:13,379 --> 00:52:17,520 Speaker 1: In 2004. Yeah, so. It gives you a sense of 576 00:52:17,620 --> 00:52:33,129 Speaker 1: how these issues that you talk about during Reconstruction, they 577 00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:40,390 Speaker 1: don't entirely get resolved, even by the modern civil rights movement, 578 00:52:40,569 --> 00:52:46,149 Speaker 1: et cetera. Now, part of the Senate has to do 579 00:52:46,250 --> 00:52:53,589 Speaker 1: with the inherent weirdness of our Senate system, right? Where 580 00:52:53,649 --> 00:52:57,399 Speaker 1: Wyoming gets two senators and California gets two senators. That 581 00:52:57,460 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 1: it's not apportioned based on population, right? But having said that, 582 00:53:05,779 --> 00:53:16,010 Speaker 1: it's still pretty striking that I was... one African American. 583 00:53:16,049 --> 00:53:22,689 Speaker 1: There were two Latinos in the U.S. Senate in 2005 584 00:53:22,690 --> 00:53:25,489 Speaker 1: when I was sworn in, 2006. 585 00:53:25,489 --> 00:53:29,789 Speaker 2: Did you have the sense that it was, that your 586 00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:32,509 Speaker 2: election would make it easier for others to follow or 587 00:53:32,649 --> 00:53:36,230 Speaker 2: that this was a kind of, that you were a token? 588 00:53:36,250 --> 00:53:38,859 Speaker 1: That my election to the U.S. Senate, I thought that 589 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:50,589 Speaker 1: it would be significant because Illinois is probably the most 590 00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:58,250 Speaker 1: representative of the country demographically. It sort of matches America's 591 00:53:58,569 --> 00:54:05,969 Speaker 1: overall racial makeup and even regional makeup. It's urban, suburban, rural, 592 00:54:07,649 --> 00:54:11,289 Speaker 1: north and south. Southern Illinois is closer to Kentucky than 593 00:54:11,350 --> 00:54:15,959 Speaker 1: it is to Chicago. And so culturally are different. And 594 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:24,540 Speaker 1: so I thought that by me having been elected to 595 00:54:25,379 --> 00:54:34,879 Speaker 1: the U.S. Senate from a big state that wasn't, that 596 00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:38,459 Speaker 1: had the same percentage of black folks as the country 597 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:44,229 Speaker 1: in general, at least sent a signal to other countries 598 00:54:45,779 --> 00:54:48,420 Speaker 1: candidates who might be thinking about running in other states, 599 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:53,129 Speaker 1: that they could pull it off. And in fact, that's 600 00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:57,010 Speaker 1: what happened. We started getting more African-Americans in the U.S. Senate. 601 00:54:57,549 --> 00:55:03,060 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't have happened anyway. If 602 00:55:03,089 --> 00:55:05,759 Speaker 1: it hadn't been me, it would have been somebody. But 603 00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:12,589 Speaker 1: I think it's signaled to the political system to... Donors 604 00:55:12,649 --> 00:55:15,430 Speaker 1: and political operatives. Oh, just because if we have a 605 00:55:15,549 --> 00:55:22,009 Speaker 1: talented black person, it turns out maybe they can win statewide. 606 00:55:22,089 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: We don't have to assume that they can't win statewide 607 00:55:25,279 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: or that they're a risky candidate. 608 00:55:26,879 --> 00:55:29,919 Speaker 2: You know, we were talking, Edward Brooke from Massachusetts is 609 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,799 Speaker 2: the first post-Reconstruction, but he is a false start in 610 00:55:33,819 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 2: a certain sense. He does not, you know, he's in 611 00:55:36,180 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 2: the 70s. 612 00:55:36,669 --> 00:55:37,089 Speaker 1: Yeah. 613 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,089 Speaker 2: And then nothing happens for. 614 00:55:39,330 --> 00:55:39,950 Speaker 1: For a long time. 615 00:55:40,049 --> 00:55:41,469 Speaker 2: For a long time. Yeah. All right. 616 00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:53,950 Speaker 1: Look, the truth is that the idea of not only 617 00:55:54,410 --> 00:56:03,870 Speaker 1: African Americans representing, having representation in Congress, but the idea 618 00:56:03,930 --> 00:56:09,859 Speaker 1: that African Americans could represent everybody, that takes a long time. 619 00:56:10,279 --> 00:56:15,620 Speaker 1: That first step, which is the step that Reconstruction was about, 620 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,319 Speaker 1: was simply to say, can at least we be represented 621 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,680 Speaker 1: by some of our own? And you get this huge 622 00:56:23,739 --> 00:56:30,590 Speaker 1: surge of Black members of Congress and state legislatures and 623 00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:38,069 Speaker 1: county commissions, et cetera. But that was always based on 624 00:56:38,109 --> 00:56:46,500 Speaker 1: this notion that we deserve to be, have a voice. 625 00:56:46,839 --> 00:56:47,439 Speaker 2: One of our own. 626 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:53,430 Speaker 1: Yeah. It takes a bigger leap to then say, by 627 00:56:53,469 --> 00:56:57,649 Speaker 1: the way, I could actually represent white people too. And 628 00:56:57,710 --> 00:57:05,109 Speaker 1: I could represent Latinos. And I have enough empathy and 629 00:57:05,149 --> 00:57:12,310 Speaker 1: understanding and we have enough common concern. And, and, interests 630 00:57:12,350 --> 00:57:16,070 Speaker 1: and aspirations that they can trust me to look out 631 00:57:16,169 --> 00:57:21,019 Speaker 1: for their interests also. That requires a whole nother set 632 00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:28,260 Speaker 1: of social changes that we don't end up seeing until 633 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,900 Speaker 1: the modern civil rights movement and the breakdown of Jim Crow. 634 00:57:33,060 --> 00:57:35,540 Speaker 2: It's funny because no one ever had, on the white side, 635 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,400 Speaker 2: ever had any trouble with the notion that a white 636 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,070 Speaker 2: person could represent everybody. The last thing you want to 637 00:57:40,090 --> 00:57:44,990 Speaker 2: give up Is this idea that someone can speak for everyone, right? 638 00:57:45,070 --> 00:57:46,750 Speaker 2: It's a last bastion of privilege. 639 00:57:46,790 --> 00:57:59,620 Speaker 1: Correct. Because now what you're really saying is that my story, 640 00:58:00,020 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: my vision, my capacities are universal in some way. They're 641 00:58:08,220 --> 00:58:11,890 Speaker 1: not qualified. There's no asterisk to them. Um, and then 642 00:58:11,930 --> 00:58:15,249 Speaker 1: that takes some time, right? I mean, that, that requires 643 00:58:15,669 --> 00:58:22,890 Speaker 1: social changes. Um, it requires Jackie Robinson and it requires 644 00:58:24,110 --> 00:58:28,290 Speaker 1: Sidney Poitier and it requires Jesse Owens and it requires 645 00:58:28,310 --> 00:58:30,890 Speaker 1: John Bradley, John, exactly. 646 00:58:30,910 --> 00:58:31,610 Speaker 2: My favorite. 647 00:58:31,630 --> 00:58:35,189 Speaker 1: Yeah. But the, you know, and, and it requires, um, 648 00:58:36,690 --> 00:58:42,019 Speaker 1: you know, Jesse Jackson and, and, uh, it, it, John Lewis. 649 00:58:44,220 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: And so you get this over time a change in 650 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:58,850 Speaker 1: social attitudes. And part of what I think we learn 651 00:58:59,570 --> 00:59:06,350 Speaker 1: from Reconstruction, the cautionary part of that is not assuming 652 00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:11,430 Speaker 1: all that stuff is permanent and that the battle is 653 00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:14,960 Speaker 1: won at any given moment, right? It is an ongoing, 654 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:24,460 Speaker 1: constant contest between their that are deeply rooted, and some 655 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,390 Speaker 1: of which are not unique to America, right? The idea 656 00:59:28,430 --> 00:59:32,690 Speaker 1: of caste, hierarchy, pecking order, status, that is not unique 657 00:59:32,730 --> 00:59:40,460 Speaker 1: to America. Race is the dimension or the phenomenon around 658 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:50,320 Speaker 1: which our whole caste thinking gravitates. But it's not. That's 659 00:59:50,380 --> 00:59:58,130 Speaker 1: something that was in the apple that Adam and Eve ate, right? 660 00:59:58,610 --> 01:00:00,910 Speaker 1: That's part of our original sentence is this idea of 661 01:00:01,610 --> 01:00:10,380 Speaker 1: we're separate. We're better. And But I think if we're 662 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: mindful of the fact that we have these warring ideas 663 01:00:18,820 --> 01:00:24,350 Speaker 1: inside of us in our cultures, in our politics, then 664 01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:28,610 Speaker 1: we can choose a better story. 665 01:00:29,669 --> 01:00:32,890 Speaker 2: That moment when you were elected to the Senate, maybe 666 01:00:32,910 --> 01:00:39,900 Speaker 2: that's the moment that Frederick Douglass is like, I'm finally happy. 667 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,900 Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, but then, you know, the fact that I, 668 01:00:44,460 --> 01:00:46,419 Speaker 1: it was, I was in the minority and I couldn't 669 01:00:46,780 --> 01:00:49,680 Speaker 1: get any bills through the Senate because the filibuster, then 670 01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:52,680 Speaker 1: you'd have to have a whole conversation about how this 671 01:00:52,780 --> 01:00:59,840 Speaker 1: mechanism called the filibuster, which was primarily used for, uh, defeating, uh, 672 01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:05,510 Speaker 1: civil rights legislation and anti-legit, lynching, uh, lynching legislation and, 673 01:01:06,010 --> 01:01:13,439 Speaker 1: and was the, uh, The mechanism whereby Southern Democrats, Dixiecrats 674 01:01:13,460 --> 01:01:17,599 Speaker 1: were able to keep Jim Crow in place, how that 675 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:23,910 Speaker 1: became this honored, venerable tradition in the Senate that blocks 676 01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:26,890 Speaker 1: all kinds of progressive legislation. 677 01:01:26,910 --> 01:01:29,209 Speaker 2: There's got to be a point. Poor Frederick is dead. 678 01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:33,110 Speaker 2: over 200 years old at this point. He just wants 679 01:01:33,450 --> 01:01:34,430 Speaker 2: to get on with his life. 680 01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:36,689 Speaker 1: He wants to go eat his applesauce. 681 01:01:36,770 --> 01:01:39,300 Speaker 2: Yeah, he wants to. So maybe that's the moment he 682 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,740 Speaker 2: was like, okay, all right, all right. I'll take it. 683 01:01:42,140 --> 01:01:42,920 Speaker 2: I'll take it. 684 01:01:42,940 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah.