WEBVTT - #462 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Greg Bright 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.639 Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.560 been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes, 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.840 even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.599 to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.919 like to be their ally, the one outside committed to 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.600 fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:38.879 is wrongful conviction. Early on in October morning in nineteen 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.239 seventy five, a fifteen year old named Elliott Porter was 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.680 shot and killed in a housing project in New Orleans, Louisiana. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.199 Twenty year old Gregory Bright, along with a seventeen year 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.400 old co defendant, someone he'd never met before, by the way, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.760 became suspects after a known drug addict turned state's witness 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.720 implicated them in a crime in exchange for reward money. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.520 Arrested and charged with second degree murder, Gregory and his 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.240 co defendant's trial would last for just one day, and 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.960 the jury deliberated for all of thirteen minutes before convicting them. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.039 They were sentenced to life without the possibility of parole 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.959 in Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. Though Gregory Bright was 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.920 illiterate when he entered prison. He taught himself to read, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.080 then taught himself the law, getting his appeals all the 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.000 way to the State Supreme Court before the Innocence Project 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.559 of New Orleans stepped in. Ultimately, he would spend twenty 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.360 seven and a half years in prison for a crime 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.760 he did not commit. Today, Bright is an accomplished actor 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.480 who's appeared in Twelve Years a Slave, American horror story 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.960 and Tremay. He is also the focus of an incredible 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.920 one man documentary stage play based entirely on his words 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.360 and recollections, titled Never Fight a Shark in Water, The 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:04.640 Wrongful of Gregory Bright, which explores so many aspects of 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.640 this staggering injustice. It was written by New Orleans based 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.560 writer Lara Naughton, who was also a teacher, compassion trainer, 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.800 and survivor of a violent crime. Lara and greg have 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:23.480 forged a mutually supportive, healing friendship and bond, and they 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.480 are joining us today. I am so excited for this conversation. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.200 Welcome both of you to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:32.720 Thank you so much, thank you. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:33.680 It's great to be here. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.960 Greg. I wanted to start with you, can you just 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.480 take me back before all of this unfolded. What was 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:42.520 your childhood like? 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.680 I had come from a small family. It was me, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:52.440 my mom, my two sisters, and my stepfather. We did 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.000 a lot of things as a family, went to move 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.080 a theater, sat at home and play called and stuff 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.760 like that, average stuff. 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.640 And you had a lot of responsibility placed on you 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.880 as well, because you dropped out of school in sixth 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.800 grade to care for your stepfather. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.080 Absolutely, you know, and it was really a tough time 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.639 for me, you know, be a kid, you know, thirteen 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.200 years old, having a full responsibility to care for a 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.520 grown adult. It often had me wondering, you know, what 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.560 my life would turn into at that point. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.760 You're obviously a very creative man. Did you have hopes 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.560 and aspirations when you were a child in terms of 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.120 what you wanted to be when you grew up? 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.440 Well, I was attracted to music and stuff, and I 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:47.200 had several instruments or guitar, bound of drums and kind 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.960 of drums. I set around when I get spare time 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.920 and tinkled around with this stuff. So I always imagine 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.800 myself as being some type of musician or something like that, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.680 because I was always making the picking on the guitars. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:08.040 But I had never actually settled into what I wanted 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.240 to become or what I wanted to do. I just 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.440 enjoyed the freedom that I suddenly had after my step 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.919 part had passed. Was just relieved of the burden of 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:18.760 caring for him. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:20.920 How old were you when he passed. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.120 I was fifteen when he passed. You know, at that 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.760 point I had been out of school, well off and 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:31.160 on since I was thirteen, and being tall as statute, 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.599 I always felt out of place about the kids in 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.400 my classes and stuff. But the most important part I 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.960 think of experience of caring for my stepfather was the 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.160 fact that he would often called me to read the 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.159 Last Scripture because that was his way of trying to 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.520 make sure that I stayed on top of reading and 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.320 stuff or whatever. It helped me while I was in jail. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.320 It disciplined me to want to get into the books 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.760 and study. It all came full circle. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.400 It's interesting that you experienced all this new freedom at 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.839 the age of fifteen, because that probably made what happened 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:14.520 when you were just twenty that much more painful. So 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.120 before we even get into that, you had a very 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.080 close relationship with your mom. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.960 Absolutely. Yeah. My mom was someone that I could turn 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.320 to in any crisis, any bad experience. I could turn 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.919 to her and she would seem to have the words. 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.239 She would say just the right things that would put 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.680 me back and allow me to focus and concentrate. And 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.680 she was just a wonderful lady, someone that I had 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.760 missed tremendously after she had passed. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:54.080 And I know that you and Laura definitely incorporated her 0:05:54.200 --> 0:06:00.760 wisdom into the One Man Show as well, because I 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.240 feel like I got to know your mom a bit 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:07.159 through the advice that she offered you throughout the years, 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:13.160 which was always very powerful. Take me to that evening 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.800 that changed everything for you when you were just twenty. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:18.320 How did that unfold? 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.960 Speaking about the arrest, this particular Saturday morning, I'm laying 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.640 on the south asleep and all of a sudden, they 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.320 heard banging on the door. Damn, And I gets up. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.719 I look through the door. I see flashlights, see someone 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.240 shine the flashlight on the porch outside, And you know, 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.760 I was hesitant to open the door because really it 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:43.480 took me out of my sleep. I thought it was 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.440 knock at next door. They had apartment just less than 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.560 a foot away. The doors were parallel, and my mom 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.640 came downstairs after all the banking. She asked me, who 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:56.400 was that banging on the door, you know. I said, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.279 I don't know. I said it might be the police, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.240 you know, because that's see flashlights. She said, look open 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.360 the door up, you know, see what they're talking about. 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.800 So I opened the door up, showed off. There was 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.000 two police officers, you know. They asked me that Greg 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.320 was brightly ved there. I said, yeah, that's me. So 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.080 one of the guys said they had a warrant for 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.320 my arrest. I said, warrant for my arrest? Yeah, I 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:23.440 said your name had come up in our investigation involving 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:28.640 this murderer to fifteen year old Elio Porter. I said, murder. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.680 I don't even know Elie, your poorter, you know. So 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.760 the guy says that, well, look, we're just gonna bring 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.840 you downtown and ask you some questions. So they brung 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.360 me downtown back at two Landing Broad. They interrogated me 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.760 in for maybe an hour and a half, asked me 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:50.200 about the people that I didn't know. But I was arrested. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.440 They brung me over to all the East Parish prison 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.800 and that's why I learned I had a co defendant. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.440 It's just so staggering because you had now ever had 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.120 any issues with the law. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:03.320 No before no. 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:10.120 And you mention in the play that your mother's attitude 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.240 was sure, my son will go down with you. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.040 He didn't kill anybody, right, absolutely, you know, she just 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:22.120 knew in her heart and her soul immediately that didn't 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.840 fit the sun that she had raised. 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.600 And the only time you had ever been to the 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.840 New Orleans Parish prison was to visit a friend. You 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.679 describe it so eloquently in your show, which I would 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.760 love to play a little excerpt from, but if you 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.160 can just describe as well what that place was like 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.920 and how it overwhelmed your senses even before you were 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.400 taken there as a prisoner, just visiting there. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.400 The experience was something that I'd never forget because I 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.280 can remember there was a line of people way didn't 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.520 go in, and the closer I had gotten to the 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.240 door to the opening, it's like the sicklet I was becoming. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:12.080 It's like something had just came over me, some outside 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.920 force had just taken over, and it had gotten to 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:17.720 the point where I was about to draw up. And 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:23.240 so the sergeant he noticed it and laughed and said 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.080 you're sick, uh, And I looked at him. I said, yes, sir, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.280 I don't know what to come over man. He laughed 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.720 at it. It's the smell. And I remember going inside 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:40.079 the place and the visited with this guy, and when 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.280 I got in there, I didn't smell it anymore. It's 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:48.920 like it had totally and completely consumed me. And I'll 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:49.679 never forget that. 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.240 And not only that, that visit becomes almost a foreshadowing 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.240 of what would eventually befall you, because you felt like 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.880 there was a part of it that got into you 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.960 right right. I wanted to draw you back into it right. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.679 When I went to visit this guy. Thank some of 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:15.840 the evil inside the place got on me. I feel 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.800 like some kind of evilness embedded itself in my body 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:26.200 and decided I want him back in here, get him 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:31.800 back in here. I jumped up open the door. Police 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:38.640 asked Gregory Bright live here. Yeah, that's me. They got 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.440 a warn from my arrest for the murder of Elliott Porter. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:49.920 It's so powerful. What was that like then getting brought 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:50.600 back there? 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.400 It was like Dasiel food. Everything that I had saw 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:01.600 from the outside, now I'm inside and I'm stuck among 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.040 what was in my mind at the time, my word 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.360 nightmare of being placed in there against my will. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.520 And that's the first time you ever met your seventeen 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:14.840 year old code defendant. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.840 Yeah, I met him while we were in prison. His 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.560 face looked at famili but come to find out, he 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.120 was the brother of the person that I was thinking about. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.439 He was the younger brother of the person that seemed familiar. 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.120 Now, I just want to point out to listeners that 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.400 we're not going to fully name your code defendant or 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.320 use the last name of the woman, Sheila, who ended 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.560 up being the witness against you. And if you want 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.199 to just touch upon why that's important to you, why 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:49.640 you're so protective of both of them, but particularly her. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.600 After I spoke with her, she told me some things 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.080 about what she had experienced in her life, and I 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.640 knew that this wasn't just entirely her doing, you know, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.760 I know it was a difficult thing for her, you know, 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.840 to send two innocent people to prison, But it was 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.839 the life that she lived. It was the choices that 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.360 she made, even though they there was choices that devastated 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.440 not only in my life but my co defender's life. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.920 And family, and I knew it was difficult for her, 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.760 and I just didn't won't to add to whatever trouble 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.680 that she may have had on me be facing in 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:32.240 the future. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.760 Greg. I'm so humbled by your grace, sincerely, because the 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:43.599 woman that we're referring to had mental illness and addiction illness, 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:50.040 and she exchanged her testimony for financial incentive, which is 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.320 what's wrong with the system more than anything else. But 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:59.000 I've always tried to live believing that we're all victims 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.480 of victims, and that hurt people end up hurting other people. 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.480 And the fact that you lost twenty seven and a 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.560 half years of your life because of that testimony and 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:18.560 you still afford her grace is so incredibly inspiring and evolved. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.520 So you're held in parish prison for seven or so 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:29.240 months before the trial, you are appointed a public defender 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.680 who you met with I believe once before the trial. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.800 Once. Yes, this guy spoke to me at a preliminary 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:43.120 here in nineteen seventy six, the early part jam maybe 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:48.000 January seventy six, and he asked that I have a 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.280 list of my witnesses to people that I intend to 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.560 call as witnesses, And I said Yeah. I had given 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.880 it to a guy from the Indigit Defenders program and 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.920 he had taken an IX him. I asked him, did 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.640 he speaked any and he said, no, I'll get around 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.600 to it, and he never did. He never spoke to 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:07.640 any of my witnesses. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:10.560 So his whole defense was he didn't do it. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:11.240 He didn't do it. 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.640 Leading up to that trial, did you, your co defendant 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.040 and your mom, your family believe that this mistake was 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.560 going to be corrected in the court of law? 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.280 Yeah, well absolutely, you know what I mean here, I'm 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.240 an innocent person. You know, I had absolutely zero to 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.800 do with this crime. The lady who testified against me, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.680 I didn't know her. The guy who I'm on a 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.400 crime with, I didn't know him. I didn't know the 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:43.360 guy who was killed. You know, you're saying that you 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.760 and this guy committed this crime together, but you've never 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:51.880 once shown anything other than the testimony of this witness 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.880 that were associated with each other. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.520 It must have been like an episode of the Twilight 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:57.320 Zone for you. 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.280 Yes, but you know, now, here's the thing about the trial. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.600 In hindsight, looking at all of the facts and the 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:09.080 circumstances of this case, you know I mean, orchestration is 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:14.400 just clear from start to finish. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.960 And the fact that leading up to the trial you 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.520 were offered a plea deal of five years and you 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.960 didn't want to take it because you were innocent. 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:30.680 In fact, five years you kidding me? It could have 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.880 said five days. It would have seemed like a life sentence, 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.840 five days in prison. Oh no, indeed, no, Uh, you're 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.920 gonna you'd have to do more than just throw that 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.880 out there and expect me to accept it. No. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:16:00.920 No, So that mockery of a trial asks for all 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:05.480 of the day and the jury deliberates for all of 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:07.080 thirteen minutes. 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:10.600 I was like, look, they don't have anything to have 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.160 a gun, They don't have a n eye witness, you know. 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.320 But when we got the trial and the state put 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.480 on his case. After the state rest, my lawyers came 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.920 and said, look, there's a recess. You know the purpose 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.760 of this. You know, we're going to switch over to 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.200 the defense and if we want to, we could call 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.920 witnesses and stuff like that. He said, I'm gonna come 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.520 forward with co counsel and we're going to decide whether 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.760 now we're going to proceed with the with the alibi defense, 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.120 and after recess was over, he came back in and 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:46.400 you know, this guy get them say you only at 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.440 this time the defense rest. And that was followed by 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.640 my co defendanse co counsel saying the same thing. And 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.920 when I questioned him about the defense rest, he said that, y'all, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.480 we decided that we're not going to go forward with 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.080 the defense witness because state witness and got on the 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.159 stand and cried and put on a show. See, he 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.400 felt that would only aggravate the judge if we put 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.880 on alibi witnesses. And I said, aggravate the judge, I said, 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:17.440 the judge is not on trial here. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.679 And then that's all they had his, you know, the 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.000 hysterical testimony of a woman who it turns out had 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.120 been in a mental institution absolutely leading up to her 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:35.640 time on that trial. There's no physical evidence against you 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:39.639 or your co defendant. There's no murder weapon that was 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.880 ever found and traced to either one of you. What 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.800 was going through your head before they announced the verdict? 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.480 Yeah, I mean I was just absolutely couldn't believe it. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.960 You know. In fact, when he came back and started 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.960 reading off the charge and stuff like that, I didn't 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.359 want to show that I was just so devastated. I 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.920 just wanted to just really be strong, but I could 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.159 help it. I look back. You know, my mom was 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:07.720 in tears. You know, my girlfriend were in tears. My sisters, 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.600 they weren't tears. Something. People were saying, well, we came 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.520 to testify, when we're going to testify, and he ushering 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.400 them out the courtroom, and it was just a lot 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:21.159 of people is just really caught by surprise, especially for 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.080 the people that really knew me. They know that he's 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.920 not a murderer. It was just it was heartbreaking. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.560 And then you're sentenced to life without the possibility of 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:39.840 parole in a place that honestly sounds at that time 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.800 particularly like hell, we're going to play an excerpt from 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:50.719 your show about Angola, but can you just talk to 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:58.000 me about even what the journey from Parish prison to 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:59.240 Angola was like? 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:07.800 Huh. To say that it was horrible is an understatement. 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:14.760 It was my worst nightmare, magnified one hundred times, like 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:19.560 something that someone just put together and put all the 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.840 horrible things that they can imagine, just throwed it in there. 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.840 You know, it's like the trip gone there. I mean, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.080 we're in the back of paddy wagon. It's seven of 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:35.639 us leg iron and seated in the back of this 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:43.720 little suv thing and this snake rolle that leads from 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.679 Highway sixty one to the prison. It was just frightening. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.280 It's like you're about to fall off a clip in 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:55.240 a second even getting to this place. And once you 0:19:55.320 --> 0:20:03.200 get there, you are among those worries people in the world, 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:11.280 people that has committed all sorts of crimes against children, 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:19.480 against the elderly, against family members. And I gotta make 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.520 sense of this stuff. I'm not in the same mind 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.520 frame with these guys. I don't go to bed at 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.320 night and have nightmare of the crime that outne committed. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.560 I go to bed at night, I sleep peacefully. You know, 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.119 I don't. I don't have these demons ride me and 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:40.000 stuff like that. But I'm among most of them who 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:45.480 who are going through this stuff, are experiencing or revisiting 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.600 these crimes. And Gold is the bottom of the ball. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:53.919 You have to be drawn away to go there, and 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.800 gold life of fifty or one hundred and fifty fact 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.680 maximum I'm security prisons five thousand in means now it's 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.800 six thouars. The only people qualified for a bed and 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.280 a Golda. It's those guys who are sentenced to die 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:19.280 in that bed. It's the last stop. Ain't Golda used 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.359 to be a slave plantation. The name a Golda originates 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:27.000 from the Africans who worked the plantation camp there used 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:32.960 to be the old slave camp. I mean, that's something 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:38.760 else to be part of such a long, long history. 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.040 How do you claim a spot that's littered with blood. 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:50.879 I'm talking about hundreds of years of brutality, the pain 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:56.199 and suffering that land caused, the violence that exist on 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:57.040 them grounds. 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:05.359 How did you have to change as a person to 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.879 survive it? How did you have to change from the 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:13.560 moment you got there? What did you have to learn 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:14.919 and teach yourself? 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.560 I mean, going in there, I had two fears. I 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.679 didn't want to die in prison, which I knew was 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:27.080 a great possibility, and I didn't want to be in 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.399 prison when my mom died. But going in there, I said, 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.840 I don't have no problem with none of the inmates, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.159 no problem with the security. I know they're here to 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:39.560 do a job. I know guys here to do a since. 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:41.760 I don't have a problem with any of that. What 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.800 I have a problem with is the fact that I'm 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.600 in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I'm going 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:52.880 to do everything in my power try and get out, 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.720 And somehow, in some way showed that I didn't have 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.080 anything to do with it. Anyone that would listen, and 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:01.760 I would tell them, Look, you know, I'm here for 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:03.840 something I didn't do. You know, I'm not out here 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.280 ribbing people and raping people and doing all kinds of stuff. 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:10.440 It's just some kind of mix up that eventually it's 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.400 going to be revealed. That was the position I took, 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:14.800 and I stood on that. 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:20.600 In addition to teaching yourself how to read to make 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.359 up for those years that you missed in school, you 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:28.080 end up mastering the law and defending yourself all the 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.879 way to the State Supreme Court. But they kept you 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.720 pretty busy in terms of the physical labor you were 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.160 expected to do while you were there, in terms of 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.840 digging ditches and backbreaking work. 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.440 Yeah, you've sentenced a hard labor, you know. So now 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.320 I have a life sentence and I'm required to work 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.639 hard for the rest of my life something I didn't do. 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:54.560 But the first thing, I'm just like, look all this 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.400 agriculture stuff. I'm a little too tall for that. All 0:23:57.440 --> 0:23:59.600 this bending over and stuff like that. So I was 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:01.919 always going to the whole some guys who are like, 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.640 suck Sam man, you need to stop going the whole man. 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:08.639 But the physical label was just entirely too much for me. 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.320 So said, one way or the other, they're gonna break you. 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.840 They're gonna break your spirit, they're gonna break your back, 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:15.040 and they're gonna break your will. 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:15.840 Absolutely. 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:21.160 But then there's something that you two touch upon in 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:25.640 the show that continues to blow my mind today, and 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:29.160 that is the work that you ended up doing at 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:34.800 the then governor's mansion, which I don't think anybody can 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.919 wrap their head around. Will you please explain it to me? 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.320 Well, it came as quite a surprise to me too, 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:44.720 you know, because I'm setting in prison, you know, and 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:47.600 of course I didn't know anything about it. You know. 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:52.120 But each time the governor is about to leave office 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:57.040 and or come into office, he would usually commute the 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:00.480 sentence of the people that work for him. And that's 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:04.000 if you didn't have a real controversial case where people 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:05.919 were making a lot of noise and a lot of 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.400 protests and stuff like if he could slide you drew 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:14.080 there without any opposition or a little opposition. Then that 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.919 was the way it was the second term. It's is 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:22.200 nineteen seventy nine. He can't run for governor any longer. 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:27.760 David Trean has won governorship and he's about to take office. 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.920 So they come to prison. They said, look, everyone that 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:33.919 was gonna commute the sentence of all the people that 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.280 works for him, So we're gonna need seventeen guys to 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:39.199 go down to the governor's mansion. I couldn't believe that 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:42.800