1
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,639
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

2
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

3
00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

4
00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

5
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,919
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

6
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,600
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

7
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:38,879
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Early on in October morning in nineteen

8
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,239
Speaker 1: seventy five, a fifteen year old named Elliott Porter was

9
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: shot and killed in a housing project in New Orleans, Louisiana.

10
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,199
Speaker 1: Twenty year old Gregory Bright, along with a seventeen year

11
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,400
Speaker 1: old co defendant, someone he'd never met before, by the way,

12
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: became suspects after a known drug addict turned state's witness

13
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: implicated them in a crime in exchange for reward money.

14
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 1: Arrested and charged with second degree murder, Gregory and his

15
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,240
Speaker 1: co defendant's trial would last for just one day, and

16
00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,960
Speaker 1: the jury deliberated for all of thirteen minutes before convicting them.

17
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,039
Speaker 1: They were sentenced to life without the possibility of parole

18
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 1: in Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. Though Gregory Bright was

19
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: illiterate when he entered prison. He taught himself to read,

20
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,080
Speaker 1: then taught himself the law, getting his appeals all the

21
00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: way to the State Supreme Court before the Innocence Project

22
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,559
Speaker 1: of New Orleans stepped in. Ultimately, he would spend twenty

23
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 1: seven and a half years in prison for a crime

24
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: he did not commit. Today, Bright is an accomplished actor

25
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,480
Speaker 1: who's appeared in Twelve Years a Slave, American horror story

26
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: and Tremay. He is also the focus of an incredible

27
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: one man documentary stage play based entirely on his words

28
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 1: and recollections, titled Never Fight a Shark in Water, The

29
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,640
Speaker 1: Wrongful of Gregory Bright, which explores so many aspects of

30
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 1: this staggering injustice. It was written by New Orleans based

31
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: writer Lara Naughton, who was also a teacher, compassion trainer,

32
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,800
Speaker 1: and survivor of a violent crime. Lara and greg have

33
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 1: forged a mutually supportive, healing friendship and bond, and they

34
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 1: are joining us today. I am so excited for this conversation.

35
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: Welcome both of you to Wrongful Conviction.

36
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you.

37
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 3: It's great to be here.

38
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 1: Greg. I wanted to start with you, can you just

39
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 1: take me back before all of this unfolded. What was

40
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: your childhood like?

41
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,680
Speaker 2: I had come from a small family. It was me,

42
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 2: my mom, my two sisters, and my stepfather. We did

43
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 2: a lot of things as a family, went to move

44
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,080
Speaker 2: a theater, sat at home and play called and stuff

45
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 2: like that, average stuff.

46
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,640
Speaker 1: And you had a lot of responsibility placed on you

47
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,880
Speaker 1: as well, because you dropped out of school in sixth

48
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 1: grade to care for your stepfather.

49
00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, and it was really a tough time

50
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 2: for me, you know, be a kid, you know, thirteen

51
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 2: years old, having a full responsibility to care for a

52
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 2: grown adult. It often had me wondering, you know, what

53
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 2: my life would turn into at that point.

54
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 1: You're obviously a very creative man. Did you have hopes

55
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 1: and aspirations when you were a child in terms of

56
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 1: what you wanted to be when you grew up?

57
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 2: Well, I was attracted to music and stuff, and I

58
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 2: had several instruments or guitar, bound of drums and kind

59
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,960
Speaker 2: of drums. I set around when I get spare time

60
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 2: and tinkled around with this stuff. So I always imagine

61
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 2: myself as being some type of musician or something like that,

62
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 2: because I was always making the picking on the guitars.

63
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 2: But I had never actually settled into what I wanted

64
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 2: to become or what I wanted to do. I just

65
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 2: enjoyed the freedom that I suddenly had after my step

66
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,919
Speaker 2: part had passed. Was just relieved of the burden of

67
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 2: caring for him.

68
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 1: How old were you when he passed.

69
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 2: I was fifteen when he passed. You know, at that

70
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 2: point I had been out of school, well off and

71
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,160
Speaker 2: on since I was thirteen, and being tall as statute,

72
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,599
Speaker 2: I always felt out of place about the kids in

73
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 2: my classes and stuff. But the most important part I

74
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 2: think of experience of caring for my stepfather was the

75
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,160
Speaker 2: fact that he would often called me to read the

76
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 2: Last Scripture because that was his way of trying to

77
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 2: make sure that I stayed on top of reading and

78
00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 2: stuff or whatever. It helped me while I was in jail.

79
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 2: It disciplined me to want to get into the books

80
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 2: and study. It all came full circle.

81
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,400
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you experienced all this new freedom at

82
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,839
Speaker 1: the age of fifteen, because that probably made what happened

83
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 1: when you were just twenty that much more painful. So

84
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 1: before we even get into that, you had a very

85
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 1: close relationship with your mom.

86
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. My mom was someone that I could turn

87
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 2: to in any crisis, any bad experience. I could turn

88
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 2: to her and she would seem to have the words.

89
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,239
Speaker 2: She would say just the right things that would put

90
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,680
Speaker 2: me back and allow me to focus and concentrate. And

91
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 2: she was just a wonderful lady, someone that I had

92
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 2: missed tremendously after she had passed.

93
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 1: And I know that you and Laura definitely incorporated her

94
00:05:54,200 --> 00:06:00,760
Speaker 1: wisdom into the One Man Show as well, because I

95
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,240
Speaker 1: feel like I got to know your mom a bit

96
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,159
Speaker 1: through the advice that she offered you throughout the years,

97
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 1: which was always very powerful. Take me to that evening

98
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 1: that changed everything for you when you were just twenty.

99
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 1: How did that unfold?

100
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,960
Speaker 2: Speaking about the arrest, this particular Saturday morning, I'm laying

101
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 2: on the south asleep and all of a sudden, they

102
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 2: heard banging on the door. Damn, And I gets up.

103
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,719
Speaker 2: I look through the door. I see flashlights, see someone

104
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 2: shine the flashlight on the porch outside, And you know,

105
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 2: I was hesitant to open the door because really it

106
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 2: took me out of my sleep. I thought it was

107
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: knock at next door. They had apartment just less than

108
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 2: a foot away. The doors were parallel, and my mom

109
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 2: came downstairs after all the banking. She asked me, who

110
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 2: was that banging on the door, you know. I said,

111
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,279
Speaker 2: I don't know. I said it might be the police,

112
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 2: you know, because that's see flashlights. She said, look open

113
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 2: the door up, you know, see what they're talking about.

114
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 2: So I opened the door up, showed off. There was

115
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 2: two police officers, you know. They asked me that Greg

116
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 2: was brightly ved there. I said, yeah, that's me. So

117
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 2: one of the guys said they had a warrant for

118
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 2: my arrest. I said, warrant for my arrest? Yeah, I

119
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 2: said your name had come up in our investigation involving

120
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 2: this murderer to fifteen year old Elio Porter. I said, murder.

121
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 2: I don't even know Elie, your poorter, you know. So

122
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 2: the guy says that, well, look, we're just gonna bring

123
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 2: you downtown and ask you some questions. So they brung

124
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 2: me downtown back at two Landing Broad. They interrogated me

125
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 2: in for maybe an hour and a half, asked me

126
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 2: about the people that I didn't know. But I was arrested.

127
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 2: They brung me over to all the East Parish prison

128
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 2: and that's why I learned I had a co defendant.

129
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 1: It's just so staggering because you had now ever had

130
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: any issues with the law.

131
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,320
Speaker 2: No before no.

132
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 1: And you mention in the play that your mother's attitude

133
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,240
Speaker 1: was sure, my son will go down with you.

134
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,040
Speaker 4: He didn't kill anybody, right, absolutely, you know, she just

135
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,120
Speaker 4: knew in her heart and her soul immediately that didn't

136
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,840
Speaker 4: fit the sun that she had raised.

137
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,600
Speaker 1: And the only time you had ever been to the

138
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,840
Speaker 1: New Orleans Parish prison was to visit a friend. You

139
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,679
Speaker 1: describe it so eloquently in your show, which I would

140
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 1: love to play a little excerpt from, but if you

141
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 1: can just describe as well what that place was like

142
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 1: and how it overwhelmed your senses even before you were

143
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 1: taken there as a prisoner, just visiting there.

144
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 2: The experience was something that I'd never forget because I

145
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 2: can remember there was a line of people way didn't

146
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 2: go in, and the closer I had gotten to the

147
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,240
Speaker 2: door to the opening, it's like the sicklet I was becoming.

148
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:12,080
Speaker 2: It's like something had just came over me, some outside

149
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 2: force had just taken over, and it had gotten to

150
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 2: the point where I was about to draw up. And

151
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 2: so the sergeant he noticed it and laughed and said

152
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,080
Speaker 2: you're sick, uh, And I looked at him. I said, yes, sir,

153
00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 2: I don't know what to come over man. He laughed

154
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 2: at it. It's the smell. And I remember going inside

155
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,079
Speaker 2: the place and the visited with this guy, and when

156
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 2: I got in there, I didn't smell it anymore. It's

157
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 2: like it had totally and completely consumed me. And I'll

158
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:49,679
Speaker 2: never forget that.

159
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 1: And not only that, that visit becomes almost a foreshadowing

160
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 1: of what would eventually befall you, because you felt like

161
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 1: there was a part of it that got into you

162
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,960
Speaker 1: right right. I wanted to draw you back into it right.

163
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,679
Speaker 2: When I went to visit this guy. Thank some of

164
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 2: the evil inside the place got on me. I feel

165
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 2: like some kind of evilness embedded itself in my body

166
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 2: and decided I want him back in here, get him

167
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 2: back in here. I jumped up open the door. Police

168
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:38,640
Speaker 2: asked Gregory Bright live here. Yeah, that's me. They got

169
00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,440
Speaker 2: a warn from my arrest for the murder of Elliott Porter.

170
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,920
Speaker 1: It's so powerful. What was that like then getting brought

171
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 1: back there?

172
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 2: It was like Dasiel food. Everything that I had saw

173
00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 2: from the outside, now I'm inside and I'm stuck among

174
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 2: what was in my mind at the time, my word

175
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 2: nightmare of being placed in there against my will.

176
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,520
Speaker 1: And that's the first time you ever met your seventeen

177
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 1: year old code defendant.

178
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I met him while we were in prison. His

179
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 2: face looked at famili but come to find out, he

180
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,120
Speaker 2: was the brother of the person that I was thinking about.

181
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,439
Speaker 2: He was the younger brother of the person that seemed familiar.

182
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: Now, I just want to point out to listeners that

183
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 1: we're not going to fully name your code defendant or

184
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,320
Speaker 1: use the last name of the woman, Sheila, who ended

185
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 1: up being the witness against you. And if you want

186
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,199
Speaker 1: to just touch upon why that's important to you, why

187
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 1: you're so protective of both of them, but particularly her.

188
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 2: After I spoke with her, she told me some things

189
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 2: about what she had experienced in her life, and I

190
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 2: knew that this wasn't just entirely her doing, you know,

191
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 2: I know it was a difficult thing for her, you know,

192
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,840
Speaker 2: to send two innocent people to prison, But it was

193
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,839
Speaker 2: the life that she lived. It was the choices that

194
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 2: she made, even though they there was choices that devastated

195
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 2: not only in my life but my co defender's life.

196
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 2: And family, and I knew it was difficult for her,

197
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 2: and I just didn't won't to add to whatever trouble

198
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,680
Speaker 2: that she may have had on me be facing in

199
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 2: the future.

200
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 1: Greg. I'm so humbled by your grace, sincerely, because the

201
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,599
Speaker 1: woman that we're referring to had mental illness and addiction illness,

202
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 1: and she exchanged her testimony for financial incentive, which is

203
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,320
Speaker 1: what's wrong with the system more than anything else. But

204
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: I've always tried to live believing that we're all victims

205
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 1: of victims, and that hurt people end up hurting other people.

206
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 1: And the fact that you lost twenty seven and a

207
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 1: half years of your life because of that testimony and

208
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 1: you still afford her grace is so incredibly inspiring and evolved.

209
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: So you're held in parish prison for seven or so

210
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 1: months before the trial, you are appointed a public defender

211
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: who you met with I believe once before the trial.

212
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 2: Once. Yes, this guy spoke to me at a preliminary

213
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 2: here in nineteen seventy six, the early part jam maybe

214
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 2: January seventy six, and he asked that I have a

215
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 2: list of my witnesses to people that I intend to

216
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,560
Speaker 2: call as witnesses, And I said Yeah. I had given

217
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: it to a guy from the Indigit Defenders program and

218
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,920
Speaker 2: he had taken an IX him. I asked him, did

219
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,640
Speaker 2: he speaked any and he said, no, I'll get around

220
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 2: to it, and he never did. He never spoke to

221
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 2: any of my witnesses.

222
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 1: So his whole defense was he didn't do it.

223
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 2: He didn't do it.

224
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 1: Leading up to that trial, did you, your co defendant

225
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 1: and your mom, your family believe that this mistake was

226
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,560
Speaker 1: going to be corrected in the court of law?

227
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well absolutely, you know what I mean here, I'm

228
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,240
Speaker 2: an innocent person. You know, I had absolutely zero to

229
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 2: do with this crime. The lady who testified against me,

230
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know her. The guy who I'm on a

231
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 2: crime with, I didn't know him. I didn't know the

232
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 2: guy who was killed. You know, you're saying that you

233
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 2: and this guy committed this crime together, but you've never

234
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 2: once shown anything other than the testimony of this witness

235
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 2: that were associated with each other.

236
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 1: It must have been like an episode of the Twilight

237
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 1: Zone for you.

238
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,280
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, now, here's the thing about the trial.

239
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,600
Speaker 2: In hindsight, looking at all of the facts and the

240
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 2: circumstances of this case, you know I mean, orchestration is

241
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 2: just clear from start to finish.

242
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,960
Speaker 1: And the fact that leading up to the trial you

243
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,520
Speaker 1: were offered a plea deal of five years and you

244
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to take it because you were innocent.

245
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 2: In fact, five years you kidding me? It could have

246
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 2: said five days. It would have seemed like a life sentence,

247
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 2: five days in prison. Oh no, indeed, no, Uh, you're

248
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 2: gonna you'd have to do more than just throw that

249
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 2: out there and expect me to accept it. No.

250
00:15:45,080 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 1: No, So that mockery of a trial asks for all

251
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: of the day and the jury deliberates for all of

252
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 1: thirteen minutes.

253
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 2: I was like, look, they don't have anything to have

254
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 2: a gun, They don't have a n eye witness, you know.

255
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 2: But when we got the trial and the state put

256
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 2: on his case. After the state rest, my lawyers came

257
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 2: and said, look, there's a recess. You know the purpose

258
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 2: of this. You know, we're going to switch over to

259
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,200
Speaker 2: the defense and if we want to, we could call

260
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 2: witnesses and stuff like that. He said, I'm gonna come

261
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,520
Speaker 2: forward with co counsel and we're going to decide whether

262
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 2: now we're going to proceed with the with the alibi defense,

263
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 2: and after recess was over, he came back in and

264
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 2: you know, this guy get them say you only at

265
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 2: this time the defense rest. And that was followed by

266
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,640
Speaker 2: my co defendanse co counsel saying the same thing. And

267
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 2: when I questioned him about the defense rest, he said that, y'all,

268
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: we decided that we're not going to go forward with

269
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 2: the defense witness because state witness and got on the

270
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 2: stand and cried and put on a show. See, he

271
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,400
Speaker 2: felt that would only aggravate the judge if we put

272
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 2: on alibi witnesses. And I said, aggravate the judge, I said,

273
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,440
Speaker 2: the judge is not on trial here.

274
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 1: And then that's all they had his, you know, the

275
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: hysterical testimony of a woman who it turns out had

276
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 1: been in a mental institution absolutely leading up to her

277
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,640
Speaker 1: time on that trial. There's no physical evidence against you

278
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 1: or your co defendant. There's no murder weapon that was

279
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,880
Speaker 1: ever found and traced to either one of you. What

280
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 1: was going through your head before they announced the verdict?

281
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was just absolutely couldn't believe it.

282
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,960
Speaker 2: You know. In fact, when he came back and started

283
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,960
Speaker 2: reading off the charge and stuff like that, I didn't

284
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 2: want to show that I was just so devastated. I

285
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 2: just wanted to just really be strong, but I could

286
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,159
Speaker 2: help it. I look back. You know, my mom was

287
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 2: in tears. You know, my girlfriend were in tears. My sisters,

288
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 2: they weren't tears. Something. People were saying, well, we came

289
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 2: to testify, when we're going to testify, and he ushering

290
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,400
Speaker 2: them out the courtroom, and it was just a lot

291
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,159
Speaker 2: of people is just really caught by surprise, especially for

292
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 2: the people that really knew me. They know that he's

293
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 2: not a murderer. It was just it was heartbreaking.

294
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 1: And then you're sentenced to life without the possibility of

295
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: parole in a place that honestly sounds at that time

296
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: particularly like hell, we're going to play an excerpt from

297
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,719
Speaker 1: your show about Angola, but can you just talk to

298
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 1: me about even what the journey from Parish prison to

299
00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 1: Angola was like?

300
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: Huh. To say that it was horrible is an understatement.

301
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 2: It was my worst nightmare, magnified one hundred times, like

302
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 2: something that someone just put together and put all the

303
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 2: horrible things that they can imagine, just throwed it in there.

304
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's like the trip gone there. I mean,

305
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 2: we're in the back of paddy wagon. It's seven of

306
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 2: us leg iron and seated in the back of this

307
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 2: little suv thing and this snake rolle that leads from

308
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 2: Highway sixty one to the prison. It was just frightening.

309
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: It's like you're about to fall off a clip in

310
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 2: a second even getting to this place. And once you

311
00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 2: get there, you are among those worries people in the world,

312
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 2: people that has committed all sorts of crimes against children,

313
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 2: against the elderly, against family members. And I gotta make

314
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: sense of this stuff. I'm not in the same mind

315
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: frame with these guys. I don't go to bed at

316
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 2: night and have nightmare of the crime that outne committed.

317
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 2: I go to bed at night, I sleep peacefully. You know,

318
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't have these demons ride me and

319
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 2: stuff like that. But I'm among most of them who

320
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 2: who are going through this stuff, are experiencing or revisiting

321
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: these crimes. And Gold is the bottom of the ball.

322
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 2: You have to be drawn away to go there, and

323
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: gold life of fifty or one hundred and fifty fact

324
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: maximum I'm security prisons five thousand in means now it's

325
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: six thouars. The only people qualified for a bed and

326
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 2: a Golda. It's those guys who are sentenced to die

327
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: in that bed. It's the last stop. Ain't Golda used

328
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 2: to be a slave plantation. The name a Golda originates

329
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: from the Africans who worked the plantation camp there used

330
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 2: to be the old slave camp. I mean, that's something

331
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: else to be part of such a long, long history.

332
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 2: How do you claim a spot that's littered with blood.

333
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 2: I'm talking about hundreds of years of brutality, the pain

334
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 2: and suffering that land caused, the violence that exist on

335
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: them grounds.

336
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: How did you have to change as a person to

337
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: survive it? How did you have to change from the

338
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: moment you got there? What did you have to learn

339
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: and teach yourself?

340
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 2: I mean, going in there, I had two fears. I

341
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 2: didn't want to die in prison, which I knew was

342
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 2: a great possibility, and I didn't want to be in

343
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 2: prison when my mom died. But going in there, I said,

344
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: I don't have no problem with none of the inmates,

345
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 2: no problem with the security. I know they're here to

346
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: do a job. I know guys here to do a since.

347
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with any of that. What

348
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: I have a problem with is the fact that I'm

349
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I'm going

350
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: to do everything in my power try and get out,

351
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 2: And somehow, in some way showed that I didn't have

352
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 2: anything to do with it. Anyone that would listen, and

353
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: I would tell them, Look, you know, I'm here for

354
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: something I didn't do. You know, I'm not out here

355
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: ribbing people and raping people and doing all kinds of stuff.

356
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: It's just some kind of mix up that eventually it's

357
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 2: going to be revealed. That was the position I took,

358
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: and I stood on that.

359
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: In addition to teaching yourself how to read to make

360
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: up for those years that you missed in school, you

361
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: end up mastering the law and defending yourself all the

362
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: way to the State Supreme Court. But they kept you

363
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: pretty busy in terms of the physical labor you were

364
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: expected to do while you were there, in terms of

365
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: digging ditches and backbreaking work.

366
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've sentenced a hard labor, you know. So now

367
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: I have a life sentence and I'm required to work

368
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: hard for the rest of my life something I didn't do.

369
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: But the first thing, I'm just like, look all this

370
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 2: agriculture stuff. I'm a little too tall for that. All

371
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: this bending over and stuff like that. So I was

372
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: always going to the whole some guys who are like,

373
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: suck Sam man, you need to stop going the whole man.

374
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: But the physical label was just entirely too much for me.

375
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: So said, one way or the other, they're gonna break you.

376
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: They're gonna break your spirit, they're gonna break your back,

377
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: and they're gonna break your will.

378
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

379
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: But then there's something that you two touch upon in

380
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: the show that continues to blow my mind today, and

381
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 1: that is the work that you ended up doing at

382
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: the then governor's mansion, which I don't think anybody can

383
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: wrap their head around. Will you please explain it to me?

384
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: Well, it came as quite a surprise to me too,

385
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: you know, because I'm setting in prison, you know, and

386
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: of course I didn't know anything about it. You know.

387
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 2: But each time the governor is about to leave office

388
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: and or come into office, he would usually commute the

389
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: sentence of the people that work for him. And that's

390
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: if you didn't have a real controversial case where people

391
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: were making a lot of noise and a lot of

392
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 2: protests and stuff like if he could slide you drew

393
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: there without any opposition or a little opposition. Then that

394
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: was the way it was the second term. It's is

395
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. He can't run for governor any longer.

396
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 2: David Trean has won governorship and he's about to take office.

397
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: So they come to prison. They said, look, everyone that

398
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 2: was gonna commute the sentence of all the people that

399
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: works for him, So we're gonna need seventeen guys to

400
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: go down to the governor's mansion. I couldn't believe that

401
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: I was chosen to be a part of that. For

402
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: all the people that was interviewed, and they winded down

403
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: to the seventeen and I was part of the seventeen.

404
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: I didn't really feel it was a blessing that people

405
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: were saying it was. To me, oh man, it's a blessing,

406
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: you know. I imagine it is a blessing for somebody that's

407
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: actually guilty.

408
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: But in reality, you were then given a uniform and

409
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: you're basically domestic help at the governor's mansion.

410
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I went there, have the dishwasher. A

411
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: guy in the kitchen said, look, you need to start

412
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: bringing the governor's wife breakfast. Then that would help you

413
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: over the long haul, you know, I'm When the governor's

414
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: wife become friendly, she know your face and know your name,

415
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: she would encourage her husband to commute your sin. But

416
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: I wasn't interested in a commutation of my sins. I

417
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: wanted my freedom.

418
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: You're a man who has been wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted,

419
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: but convicted of murder, and other people who have been

420
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: convicted of am I right that you had to just

421
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: be a pure murderer. They wouldn't take anybody who had

422
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: been convicted.

423
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: And that's the one thing I've found credit by these

424
00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: people that committed some serious offense. But they're working on

425
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: the governor. Like I said, when I first went to

426
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: the governor's mentioned, I was on the dishwash. After speaking

427
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: with the governor's wife, they suddenly put me over the

428
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: main dining hall. I can't believe it. Of course they

429
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: didn't know me. I could have been the actual killer

430
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: or something. But I'm working serving the governor.

431
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 1: It's so corrupt, it's just so crazy. It's so crazy.

432
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: Do you put it wonderfully in the show, which I

433
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: hope everybody reads and gets the chance to see absolutely eventually,

434
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: But where did you get the drive and the strength

435
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: to fight to get out. For twenty seven and a

436
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: half years, I went.

437
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: Through this period of just being angry, and I came

438
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: to the conclusion that just, you know, I'm just been

439
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: in a lot of energy just being angry and not

440
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: getting anything done. My angle still there, but it started

441
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: to subside enough to allow me the venture off in

442
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: the other areas, like my reading and comprehension. And once

443
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: I learned how to read, I mean, doors started opening

444
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: up that I didn't even know was there, and that

445
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: it kept me motivated, kept me interested, and I challenged

446
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: that energy into the legal aspect, that is, it just

447
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 2: took over me. And you know, I started reading cases,

448
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: cases of people that I knew, and the case the

449
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: actual trial proceedings the people that I was in the

450
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: dome with. So if I was curious about somebody in

451
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: the dome, all I do is get their name and

452
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: read their case. And so most of the guys in

453
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: the dome, I knew more about their case than they did.

454
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: And then if you understand how it happened to them,

455
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: and sometimes they were correctly convicted, you begin to understand

456
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: how the system was used against you.

457
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it was a lot own process. You know,

458
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: I wish that it could have been cut in half,

459
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: but it played out in its own time and stuff,

460
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: and I was just so thankful that along the way

461
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: I would be able to make the right transitions and

462
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: make the right decisions moving forward.

463
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: And Laura, you've been incredibly patient, and we're going to

464
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: get to you in just one second too. But you

465
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: mentioned Greg that you had two wishes and to desires

466
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: and hopes when all of this happened to you, and

467
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: one was that you didn't die in prison. But the

468
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: other one was that you wouldn't be in prison when

469
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: your mom passed, And that, to me is one of

470
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking aspects of this. Yeah, and the way

471
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: in which you were told, if you're comfortable talking to that.

472
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Here's the thing about my mom fast and

473
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: it came as a total surprise to me. My family

474
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: they wouldn't tell me exactly what was going on with

475
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: my mom's help, calling to my sisters reasoning it was that, well,

476
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: you you already under pressure in prison. But I was like, look,

477
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: you should have told me that way, I would have

478
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: been prepared when this guy it came into the dome.

479
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: But when the priest came into the dormitory, came in

480
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: and called my name. It just took everything out of me.

481
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just my mind just everything was just

482
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: a blur. You know, if the people I had been

483
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: around at a great length of time just seemed like strangers,

484
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: Like I'm looking at him the first time.

485
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about how working to break your

486
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: back and the hole to break your spirit, but that

487
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: must have just broken your heart.

488
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was done, you know. I mean, I kept

489
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: telling myself that I'm on let ass through the night.

490
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: Just with that low I was just it's all I

491
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: had in the world's gone. Just like that, having someone

492
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: that you can call on in a situation, it's a

493
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: really good feeling to have that I can call on

494
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: this person and suddenly it's no longer there. It was

495
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: in a dog hole. I was in a dog place.

496
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't find my way, and all the

497
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: work I had done, my LOCKO was in the middle

498
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: of out, and I tell myself, I'm getting up in

499
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: the morning, I'm I'm try to do a little reading

500
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: or whatever. But I look at that lock and I

501
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: just get so frustrated, slamming back down what I'm doing it.

502
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: For another aspect of Angola is it's so difficult to

503
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: get to for family. It's so inconvenient and hard to

504
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: make the trip, which makes the cruelty of it even

505
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 1: much more magnified. But thankfully you did open that locker again,

506
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: and you fought argued your appeals all the way up

507
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: to the State Supreme Court, and then the Innocence Project

508
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: of New Orleans got involved, and by the end of it,

509
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: the court overturned your convictions and that was upheld by

510
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: the Louisiana Supreme Court. And then on June twenty fourth,

511
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, after twenty seven years, seven months,

512
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: and ten days in prison, you and your code of

513
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: defendant were both released after the Orleans Parish DA dismissed

514
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: all charges. This still just hits in such a painful way.

515
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: You and your code defendant left prison with nothing but

516
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: ten dollars check from the state and garbage bags full

517
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: of your legal paperwork that sugarcoating ith ten dollars.

518
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that. When we were leaving the prison

519
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: gave me the envelope with the check. He said, Man,

520
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: I would tear that check up. He said, that's a shame.

521
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: Someone to be in prison all these years for something

522
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: that he didn't do, and to be handed a check

523
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: for ten dollars that's not even bus fare to wherever

524
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: you is you going. I said, yeah, I'm just glad

525
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: to be out. I'm glad to be getting away from this.

526
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: They could have kept the check. But when you think

527
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: about it, for twenty seven something years in prison, worked

528
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: in the fields a little time, stayed a lot of

529
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: years in the kitchen. I stayed a lot of years

530
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: the horse lode, stayed a couple of years that the

531
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: governor's mentioned. And to be given a check for ten dollars.

532
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: It's so disgusting. I can't even I have no words.

533
00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: And then you're tasked with processing everything that happen up

534
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: into you and just building a new life.

535
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: That's still difficult because I'm at a great disadvantage when

536
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: I get out. I'm not twenty years old any longer.

537
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: I'm far to seven years old. I don't have any finances.

538
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: I have to start at the bottom. I was offered

539
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: a lot of jobs. I could have worked with a

540
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: couple of lawyers and stuff, but I didn't want to

541
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: be a part or at the prison. I wanted to

542
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: be away from that. I didn't want to profit off

543
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: of someone's grieve, someone's pain and suffering. I needed to

544
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: re energize myself, reinvent myself, and then see what was

545
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: out there. And it's been real, real difficult doing that.

546
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: Because it's not like you're suddenly given a blueprint, right,

547
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: And even though you did end up receiving some compensation,

548
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: it was nominal, right.

549
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: I don't even feel that it's just enough compensation to

550
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: get you in the world or death. And the thing

551
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: about it is, I don't feel like I've been compensated.

552
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: I don't care what the numbers could be. I can't

553
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 2: be compensated for what happened, the experience of being incarcerated

554
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: among the type of people that I was incarcerated with

555
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: for that length of time. I mean, it's just just

556
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 2: one day of that is enough that you would never

557
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: ever want to be involved in that kind of stuff again.

558
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You

559
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good

560
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to

561
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I would love

562
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: to know now from you Laura, how you guys first

563
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: crossed paths.

564
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: We met when Greg had been out of prison, I

565
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: guess about four years, and I was a volunteer working

566
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: with the Innocence Project as a narrative consultant because there

567
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 3: are probably more people exonerated out of Louisiana than any

568
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: other state, because there are more wrongful convictions in Louisiana,

569
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: and so many people had been coming out of Angola,

570
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 3: and like Greg, decades of experience. People were very interested

571
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 3: in hearing their stories. But you know, what do you

572
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: do with twenty seven and a half years of incarceration?

573
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: How do you even begin to put that into a

574
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 3: fifteen minute presentation for a church or community center. We

575
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: had a group of four people. Initially my role was

576
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 3: to help kind of start to shape some of this

577
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 3: life experience. So we worked together for a few months

578
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: and had a presentation with all four of the exoneries.

579
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: During that time, I was just continually drawn to Greg.

580
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 3: Greg as you can tell, as a great heart, he

581
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: has a lot of wisdom, He's a great storyteller. And

582
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: so after the initial project was complete, we continued to

583
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: work together for the next couple of years and we

584
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 3: would meet everywhere. We met at coffee shops, we met

585
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 3: in the park, we met at my office. We met

586
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: once once or twice a week for a couple of years.

587
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: You know, he used to always say, wait a minute, great,

588
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: wait a minute, let me give our record. Let me

589
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: tell you that what did you talk about? I know,

590
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: I got to type.

591
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: This out and I just asked him question after question

592
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 3: and recorded every conversation, transcribed it word for word. I

593
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 3: had hundreds and hundreds of pages of transcribed notes, and

594
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 3: slowly it took the shape of one man play.

595
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: I should imagine too that it's interesting as an EXONERI

596
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: because people will ask you questions, But how much do

597
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: they really want to know? Like how deep is their

598
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: commitment to your experience? And you met your mat Yeah?

599
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, but this has been the most rewarding experience that

600
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: I've ever had. It's painful in a lot of ways,

601
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: but it's painfully true.

602
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: Is it what led you on your path to become

603
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: an actor?

604
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: Yes? And no. I mean first we had a professional

605
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: actor that was doing play. But God starts swaying from

606
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 2: the script, slowly out putting this personal stuff in there.

607
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 2: It was like, l I was like, you know what

608
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: maybe it be a good idea for you to do

609
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: to play. I had never thought about acting, but of

610
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: course it's not acting because this is something I've gone through,

611
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: this is my experience. So I really didn't look at

612
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: it like acting. But I was comfortable enough to pursue

613
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: other interest in acting. One of the interns that at

614
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: the time was working at Hypno she decided to switch career,

615
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 2: becoming part of the second lind Studios here in New Orleans,

616
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: and so she became my agent, Megan Lewis. She's a

617
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: tremendous person with the good heart, good spirit and stuff,

618
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: and so she is responsible for me being in these movies,

619
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: The Twelve Years, the Slave, twelve Rounds Jones. Seeing it's

620
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: just a few of those movies, she was instrumental in

621
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: me being.

622
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: A part of What about working on the entire process

623
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: of creating that show with Laura was therapeutic for you?

624
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. I mean one point, I couldn't get through

625
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: the mother scene. I'd always break down and just get

626
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: these flashbacks and we'd have to stop and start back

627
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You know, you know, it took

628
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 2: me a long time to really put my mom's debt

629
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: in perspective, you know.

630
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: And that is something that you got to purge in

631
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 1: this show, right, because it's your truth, right and Lara

632
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: to you, and it's very evident in what you guys

633
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: have created together, your empathy and your compassion and your understanding.

634
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: I know, in addition to being an incredibly gifted writer,

635
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: you're also a compassion trainer. But you are also the

636
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: survivor of a violent attack that happened years ago while

637
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: you were traveling. In what way did dealing with that

638
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: trauma lead you to what you do today and how

639
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: you crossed paths with Greg?

640
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, very directly.

641
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: So.

642
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: As you mentioned, I was traveling in Belize and I

643
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: was picked up by a man pretending to be a

644
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: cab driver and I was kidnapped into the jungle where

645
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: I was robbed and raped, and the man intended to

646
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: kill me. And I couldn't run, I couldn't hide, I

647
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: couldn't overpower the man. But what I could do was

648
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: turn toward his pain. And you mentioned earlier that one

649
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: of your fundamental beliefs is that hurt people hurt people,

650
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 3: and that was so obvious in this experience. It was

651
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 3: to my benefit that he was a real talker, and

652
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 3: so he was telling me the problems of his life,

653
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: and so I turned my attention toward him, and caring

654
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: for him is what literally saved my life. And so

655
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 3: at the end of that experience, I was living in

656
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: Los Angeles at the time I flew home. I was

657
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 3: just trying to make sense of this, what just happened?

658
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: And what is this thing called compassion? I knew to

659
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: call it compassion, but I didn't know what compassion was.

660
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 3: Certainly wasn't a compassion trainer yet at that point. And

661
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 3: so thus began my journey. You know, I started down

662
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: that walk of first trying to learn about first, trying

663
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 3: to heal from that experience, from the fear of it,

664
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 3: but also the disappointment that I experienced when I wanted

665
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 3: to express care and concern not just for myself, but

666
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 3: also for him, for his wellbeing, for his healing, because

667
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 3: to me, the best consequence that could come from this

668
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: is that we would both heal so that he would

669
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 3: no longer have the kind of hurt and pain that

670
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: would hurt then someone else. But I was met with

671
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 3: a lot of resistance to that idea, and so I

672
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: kept looking for teachers and counselors who I could work with,

673
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: and I was having a really hard time finding people

674
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: who would match my exploration. And so I moved to

675
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: New Orleans right after Katrina, and that seemed to make

676
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 3: a lot of sense to me. The city was sort

677
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: of in upheaval. My life was recently in upheaval, and

678
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 3: everyone was just putting pieces back together again. I didn't

679
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: think about it consciously. I love New Orleans, but I

680
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 3: also felt really comfortable in that mess. And it was

681
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 3: only I was only in New Orleans for a couple

682
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 3: of years before I met Greg and the other exoneries,

683
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 3: And so Greg was somebody who could shed some light

684
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: on the experience of incarceration and the experience of people

685
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: who were responsible for harm, but he himself was not

686
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 3: responsible for that harm, and so he was a step

687
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 3: closer to my questions. My time with Greg was away

688
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 3: for me to really start to sort out both my

689
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 3: questions and some answers. So he really became a great

690
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: teacher for me.

691
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: So you both brought about a great deal of healing

692
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: in one another's lives just through this creative process that

693
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: you shared.

694
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: Healing is, for sure process, and I think we intersected

695
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: in that process. Greg had already done healing work before

696
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 3: we met, so had I. We were able to support

697
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: one another while we were working on the play, and

698
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,479
Speaker 3: of course both of us are still doing our work

699
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: beyond that, and yes, but there's something about working on

700
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: a creative project that places the experience outside of us

701
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: so that we can kind of look at it, shape it,

702
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 3: move it around. And I do want to talk a

703
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: little bit too about Greg talking about his mom's death.

704
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 3: When Greg and I first started meeting, Greg talked about

705
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: his mom's death every single time, and it was by

706
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: far the most painful things still in his life. And

707
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: after a while, after months of this, I became very

708
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 3: concerned about what we were doing, because, yes, working on

709
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 3: a creative project and story sharing can be healing, but

710
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 3: it also can be re traumatizing, and if done without

711
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 3: that care and sensitivity, it can really it can be devastating.

712
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 3: It's like it's opening a wound. It's opening a wound.

713
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: I mean, it was so complex and so deep. So

714
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 3: I actually went off for a little while and I

715
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: got trained in some trauma narrative work so that I

716
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: could bring some new skills back to our conversation, and

717
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: we started employing some of those some of those techniques,

718
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: and that's when Greg started to remember his mom's words

719
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: of advice because they came to him at a time

720
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: when he really needed them and in Goola. But then

721
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: once coming home, he was so, Greg, please let me

722
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: know if I'm not saying this correctly, but he seemed

723
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: to be so overwhelmed then by the grief that the

724
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: wisdom had been lost inside the grief. Absolutely, and so

725
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: what the retelling of the play did was it brought

726
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: us back to the wisdom. I think the trust in

727
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: the theater is what led us to being able to

728
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 3: cry through those scenes together over and over again, until

729
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: finally we could do it without that level of grief.

730
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: Is that fair to say, Greg.

731
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely. That's right home. And so I could

732
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: understand when people see that day it was affected by

733
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: it or moved by that particular part because it is

734
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: the heart of the play.

735
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: I've had the pleasure, honestly, the honor of reading the

736
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: play multiple times at this point, and I always cry

737
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: at that point because it is so elegant in its honesty.

738
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: Simplicity's not the right word, it's honesty, but just exquisite

739
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: in its heartbreak because it's real.

740
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: And it was because of Greg that I went to

741
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 3: Angola for the first time, and since then I have

742
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 3: been very involved in prison work. After Greg and I

743
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 3: wrote the play, I actually I wrote a book and

744
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 3: published a book about my own experience and became a

745
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 3: compassion trainer and then ended up going to Angola once

746
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 3: a week for many years and working to create a

747
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 3: prison wide compassion program.

748
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: I can't imagine for both of you how incredible that

749
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: trip together to Angola must have been, because Greg, at

750
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: that point, you have processed a lot of demons that

751
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: were inflicted upon you by the experience in terms of

752
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: working on the play, and Laura, you get to see

753
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: a place that you have already seen seeing through Greg's

754
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: eyes with your own. Was it a really emotional experience

755
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: for you to go there together.

756
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have any personal interest going back to prison.

757
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back for Laura's sake, because we

758
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: had talked so much about that gold or that I

759
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 2: know she visualized in her mind, but it's one thing

760
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: to see it in your mind and then to be

761
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: standing there. I wanted her to see what I saw

762
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 2: while I was there, And I must say that when

763
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: she got there, she saw it. She saw what I saw.

764
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 2: We go in the dormitory and the guy come out.

765
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: I look around, I don't see lardy. Guy come in

766
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 2: and say, man, you with the lady. I'm like, yeah,

767
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: what she said? Man, she's outside crying, and I know

768
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 2: what it was. I know it was. What she saw

769
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: was just so overwelm. But I knew for me it

770
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: would draw a lot of memories back and feelings of

771
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 2: helplessness when I have to look at the guys that

772
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 2: I done slept next to it and work with, held

773
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: long conversations with, and now suddenly be on the outside

774
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 2: and looking at them and dealing with them from the inside.

775
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: It's just not a part of the story, but it's

776
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: part of the story that's hit home with me because

777
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: I can't help. I can't help the situation, you know.

778
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I could just try to be strong, and

779
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: that's the only advice I could give someone in that situation.

780
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: It's just devastating for me.

781
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: There were layers of complexity to it. It was a

782
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 3: really pivotal experience for me in terms of being able

783
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 3: to write the play, but also in my own personal life.

784
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 3: First in terms of the play. Craig had been saying

785
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: for months and months that the play wasn't just about him,

786
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 3: and I kept saying, yeah, but it's really about you.

787
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 3: It's not about me, It's not about me, It's about

788
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 3: everyone there. And I did not understand that until I

789
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: went to Angola, when I walked into the dorm and

790
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: I felt Greg talks about going to perish prison in

791
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 3: the smell. For me. When I walked into the dorm,

792
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 3: I just felt grief and there was nothing to do

793
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 3: but cry. It was so much, And in that moment,

794
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: I realized, Oh, this play is not about Greg. Greg

795
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 3: is one person in this enormous system of both people

796
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 3: who are innocent who end up in prison and also

797
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: people who are responsible for harm who end up in prison.

798
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: And so for me personally, the person who harmed me,

799
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 3: had he been convicted, he in Louisiana would be spending

800
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 3: the rest of his life at Angola, at hard labor.

801
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 3: And I since working at Angola, I have actually met

802
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 3: people whose crimes look very similar to the one that

803
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 3: I experienced, who are spending the rest of their lives

804
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 3: at Angola. And what I know about every person there

805
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 3: is that they are absolutely more than that event. And

806
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 3: yet that is not how we talk about people. That

807
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 3: is not how we see people. We talk about quote murderers,

808
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 3: a person who has taken a life, committed a murder,

809
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 3: that does not make them a murderer. It's not ongoing.

810
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 3: I have the profound respect for so many of the

811
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 3: individuals who I've met over the years there who have

812
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 3: grappled with their crime, who are experiencing the grief, the suffering,

813
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 3: the shame, the regret, but also the strength and living

814
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 3: a life that also includes joy and love and compassion

815
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 3: and healing. And I think that if we don't tell

816
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 3: the whole complex story, then we're missing the humanness of it.

817
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 3: And so that's what I got to see for And also,

818
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 3: Angola is beautiful. We don't we forget to mention that

819
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: it's eighteen thousand acres of rolling farmland. It is gorgeous land.

820
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 3: It was a plantation, it's fertile soil. And the juxtaposition

821
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 3: of that beauty and the pain that's on that land

822
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: is really it's just profound. It's staggering.

823
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: See that that is the emotional connection, that is the

824
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: complexity of the human experience, and very much you know

825
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:48,919
Speaker 1: what I'm hoping to help do with this podcast is

826
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: to show that emotional tether that we all have that

827
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: erases the us and the them, because what you just

828
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: said goes right back to we're all victims of victims.

829
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: And if you understand that legacy of trauma and that

830
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: domino effect, that ripple effect it has, it just makes

831
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: it more possible for us to create a better world

832
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: with all of the people who were already in it,

833
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to picking and choosing and viewing people as dispensable.

834
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: Going back to the show, Greg, if you can just

835
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: explain to me where the name for the play came

836
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: from and who wing Ding is?

837
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Wingding with the guy set up next to me,

838
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: you know, and he was someone that always had some

839
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 2: words of wisdom. He always quick to make people laugh,

840
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: you know. But he used to always get on me,

841
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,760
Speaker 2: you know, because he figured, ut you smart, you smart,

842
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: you know, but you fighting and chalk in the water.

843
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: You know, I had no idea what he was talking about.

844
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 2: When he was talking about you grit your tea that night,

845
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: you sleep with your fistball up. You said it was

846
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: a signe that you fighting a shark and water, you know,

847
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 2: I mean He used to really get on my nerve

848
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 2: with that, never fight a sharking water. You got to

849
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: get him on land. I'm like, man, what did you

850
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: talking about. I ain't fighting no sharks. He's like, yeah,

851
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 2: you fighting the shalksing no water. It just occurred to

852
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: me one day that I said, Yeah, it's just like

853
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: Dwayne Dan used to see. You never fight a sharking water,

854
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: and only you could really get him is to get

855
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: him on land. And it just stayed with me, you know.

856
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: Even you explaining how because the play really shows the

857
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 1: triumph of the human spirit over adversity, over trauma. But

858
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: I viewed fighting a shark and water was basically giving

859
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: into anger. Yeah, that's you're setting yourself up for failure

860
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: if you give into anger, and that's what you were

861
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: able to overcome.

862
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 2: Lord.

863
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: Do you see parallels in terms of Greg's giving up

864
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: on his anger with you basically refusing to identify solely

865
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: as a victim.

866
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, anger is a dead end. There's nowhere to go.

867
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: I use the word compassion a lot. Compassion is simply

868
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 3: recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. It's not condoning

869
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 3: bad behavior. It's not even the same as forgiveness. It's

870
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 3: just recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. And that's

871
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 3: a visionary stance because you have to see all the

872
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 3: way beyond the suffering anger. You can't, there's nowhere to

873
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 3: see beyond it. Greg and I both giving ourselves the

874
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 3: opportunity to have a little bit of emotional relief. I

875
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 3: think that's the essence of our lives, and then we

876
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 3: put that into the play. I think Greg and I,

877
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 3: you know, we were both kidnapped in different ways. Greg

878
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 3: was kidnapped for a really long time. We don't call

879
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 3: it that, but that's in fact what it was. He

880
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 3: was taken from his home and he was held for

881
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 3: twenty seven and a half years. And inside of that

882
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 3: twenty seven years, Greg lived a full life of all

883
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 3: the emotional highs and lows that come with life. And

884
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: I hope that that comes through in our conversations and

885
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,959
Speaker 3: in the play, because we keep coming back to the

886
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 3: truth is in the complexity, and as soon as we

887
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 3: try to simplify any experience, even the experience of anger,

888
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 3: we're in territory that just maybe isn't as as rich

889
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 3: as we want it to be.

890
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: As authentically, what does your friendship mean to both of you,

891
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 1: and Greg, I'll let you go first.

892
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's been really life changing, you know. I mean,

893
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: Laura has told me a lot. I've had the opportunity

894
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: chance to release a lot of positive energy. The healing

895
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:05,959
Speaker 2: has been something that was never offered in any way

896
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: from the people who was responsible for this, and the

897
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: play is something that I feel real strong about, and

898
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 2: I feel that it's a special thing being able to

899
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: share that experience with people and not bring these emotions.

900
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: Being free of these emotions, I can express it. I

901
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: don't get angry with the lady who testified against me,

902
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: wh when I do the play. I don't get angry

903
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,479
Speaker 2: with the judge or the police officers. I don't get

904
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: angry with them as far as I care. They can

905
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: be setting in the audience. My only purpose here is

906
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 2: to help. My purpose is not here to hurt anyone.

907
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

908
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Gosh, Like all great relationships, you know, Greg has

909
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 3: lots of roles in my life. He's a friend, he's

910
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 3: an amazing collaborator, he's a guide, a teacher, a wise one.

911
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 2: You know.

912
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 3: We worked really hard for a long time on this

913
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 3: and then we put it down. We also weren't in

914
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: each other's lives as much years have gone by when

915
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 3: we have just had a small touch in each other's lives,

916
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,959
Speaker 3: and interestingly, being invited into this conversation and also being

917
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 3: invited to put the play back on in September has

918
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: brought Greg and I back not just to the conversation

919
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 3: about wrongful conviction, but back to each other. So it's

920
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: really special and wonderful, and yeah, it feels really super good.

921
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 3: It feels great.

922
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: I can't tell you the joy that fills my soul with.

923
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: But also the fact that you are going to perform

924
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: the play again this fall. Can you give me details

925
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: so that we can link to it, and I hope

926
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: to be there in personal.

927
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: That would be wonderful. We would love for you to

928
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 3: be there.

929
00:58:58,440 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: Yes.

930
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 3: Yes, The New Orleans The Store Collection is mounting an

931
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 3: exhibition about the history of incarceration in Louisiana. It's going

932
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 3: to open in September, and Greg has been invited to

933
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 3: perform Never Fight a Shark as part of their programming.

934
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: It'll be the middle of September and Greg will be

935
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 3: offering three performances.

936
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, I'm.

937
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: Going to figure out a way that I can be

938
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: sitting in that audience.

939
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 3: Fantastic.

940
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for your time today. It

941
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: is such a pleasure to speak with both of you.

942
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so well, Thank you so much, really appreciate it.

943
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: And in the show description we will include links to

944
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: both Greg's upcoming performances and a filmed excerpt of Never

945
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: Fight a Shark and Water, as well as one to

946
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: Lara Naton's compelling memoir The Jaguar Man. Thank you for

947
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. Please support

948
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: your low Lenoson's organizations and go to the links in

949
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: the episode description to see how you can help. I'd

950
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

951
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,

952
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,

953
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

954
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by

955
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

956
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

957
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

958
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

959
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

960
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

961
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: Good podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one