1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:26,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is Solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The rational 2 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: response to being asked to fight in a war is 3 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:33,716 Speaker 1: to go crazy. That, of course, is the voice of 4 00:00:33,796 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin co founder Malcolm Bladwell. And I invited Malcolm back 5 00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: to Solvable because I've recently been thinking a lot about 6 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:43,436 Speaker 1: something I read that he published back in twenty thirteen, 7 00:00:43,876 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 1: his book David and Goliath. The subtitle is Underdogs, Misfits 8 00:00:48,716 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: and the Art of Battling Giants. It's a book that 9 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 1: takes a closer look at events in which one outcome 10 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: is greatly favored over another and discusses why sometimes those 11 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:03,676 Speaker 1: outcomes don't turn out as expected. This episode is a 12 00:01:03,676 --> 00:01:06,556 Speaker 1: little different from our typical Solvable and that we don't 13 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: exactly solve a problem here, but in the spirit of 14 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:12,836 Speaker 1: the show, we're very optimistic in our discussion of a 15 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 1: big idea, and as you listen, you'll begin to get 16 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:18,676 Speaker 1: a sense of exactly why we chose now to have 17 00:01:18,796 --> 00:01:28,636 Speaker 1: this particular discussion. Imagine you're living in Britain in the 18 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: late nineteen thirties. Germany is preparing to attack your country. 19 00:01:33,356 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 1: It's the start of the Second World War. The military 20 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 1: is mobilizing. Preparations are being made for mass casualties. You're 21 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 1: debating whether or not you should stay in the city 22 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:45,676 Speaker 1: or move to the countryside until the danger has passed. 23 00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 1: The British Military Command does a kind of projection of 24 00:01:49,756 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: what they think is going to happen, and they think 25 00:01:51,796 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 1: they're going to have six hundred thousand dead, one point 26 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:59,116 Speaker 1: two million wounded, and mass panic. They think that no 27 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:01,316 Speaker 1: one's going to go to work, which means that all 28 00:02:01,356 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: of industrial production in England will cease. They think that 29 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: the army will be useless because the army will be 30 00:02:09,436 --> 00:02:11,996 Speaker 1: spend all of its time trying to keep the civilians 31 00:02:12,556 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: like from going nuts. They really think it's over. The 32 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:20,756 Speaker 1: fear and uncertainty in the air are palpable. But what 33 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: are you going to do? Can you still go to work? 34 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: What about friends of family? Will they be safe? What 35 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:31,036 Speaker 1: is going to happen to all of you? And I 36 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:37,516 Speaker 1: know these questions may feel familiar. It's just funny about 37 00:02:37,516 --> 00:02:42,116 Speaker 1: how a different circumstances in different times we have very 38 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:46,356 Speaker 1: different responses to people who have this kind of psychological 39 00:02:46,396 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: reaction of invulnerability. They cannot be heroes or they can 40 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:53,676 Speaker 1: be chumps. While our responses to the fear of an 41 00:02:53,676 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: impending battle and its immediate physical threats may be quite 42 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 1: different from our responses to the fear of a global pandemic. 43 00:03:00,916 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 1: There's a way in which they're actually kind of similar 44 00:03:04,756 --> 00:03:08,876 Speaker 1: community approach. We've fallen so in love with the language 45 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: of personal freedom and responsibility that we've forgotten the power 46 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:19,796 Speaker 1: of collective appeals to community. Here's my conversation with Malcolm Gladwell. 47 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:23,796 Speaker 1: We're going to examine the parallels and intersections of fear, vulnerability, 48 00:03:24,036 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 1: and responsibility when it comes to war and a global pandemic. Malcolm, 49 00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:35,676 Speaker 1: welcome back to Solvable. It's great to have you here 50 00:03:35,756 --> 00:03:38,916 Speaker 1: once again. Thank you. So I want to tell you 51 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 1: about the my earliest introduction to you. It was in 52 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and you were on the Ted Radio Hour 53 00:03:48,516 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 1: and you were giving an interview with Guy Roz about 54 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,156 Speaker 1: your book David and Goliath, because you had just done 55 00:03:55,396 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 1: a Ted talk on that. Do you remember that, I do, Yeah, great. 56 00:03:58,836 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: I liked it because, you know, as a self proclaimed 57 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: church guy, you gave a very different definition to David 58 00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:08,556 Speaker 1: and Goliath, the battle what actually happened? And I love 59 00:04:08,636 --> 00:04:10,876 Speaker 1: this book. I bought it it's one of my favorites. 60 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 1: I think it's you know, a lot of people talk 61 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 1: about blank and outliers in the other books you wrote, 62 00:04:14,556 --> 00:04:17,436 Speaker 1: but David and Goliath is by far my favorite. And 63 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: I bought the book thinking I'm just gonna get all 64 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:22,876 Speaker 1: these you know, insights about you know, underdogs and misfits 65 00:04:22,916 --> 00:04:24,156 Speaker 1: and all that, which I did, and I thought it 66 00:04:24,196 --> 00:04:27,116 Speaker 1: was gonna be purely based on David and Goliath. But 67 00:04:27,196 --> 00:04:29,396 Speaker 1: then I got to one chapter and it was chapter 68 00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:33,636 Speaker 1: five and a Canadian psychiatrist who wrote this book called 69 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 1: The Structure of Morale named J. T. McCurdy talks about 70 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:40,276 Speaker 1: the bombings in Britain. Can you recount that? Yeah? Those, 71 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:42,196 Speaker 1: So this is, by the way, thank you for the 72 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:44,476 Speaker 1: kindroids about David and Glad. David and Glad happens to 73 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 1: be my favorite of all my books as well. So 74 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:51,716 Speaker 1: this is something that has always not just fascinated me, 75 00:04:51,796 --> 00:04:56,196 Speaker 1: but puzzled people for a long time. Which was at 76 00:04:56,236 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: the start of the Second World War. The British knew 77 00:04:59,876 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: that the Germans had a fleet of bombers, and they 78 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 1: also knew the state of their defenses against bombers were 79 00:05:09,596 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 1: that there was nothing they could do to stop the Germans. 80 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:14,956 Speaker 1: So the first thing they did, of course, was they 81 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,356 Speaker 1: a lot of children who lived in London were moved 82 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: to the countryside. The second thing they did was they 83 00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:25,196 Speaker 1: got the fire trucks ready for what would be you know, 84 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 1: all kinds of all kinds of the normal things. More 85 00:05:28,116 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 1: than that, they became convinced that the devastation would be 86 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:36,076 Speaker 1: such that the population of London would panic, and so 87 00:05:36,156 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 1: they did things like they converted a whole series of 88 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:45,276 Speaker 1: buildings on the outskirts of London to psychiatric makeshift psychiatric hospitals, 89 00:05:45,276 --> 00:05:47,956 Speaker 1: because they figured so many people will be traumatized, they 90 00:05:47,956 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 1: assumed that some incredible percentage of the population of London 91 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 1: would flee the city. They really worried that the war 92 00:05:54,676 --> 00:05:57,676 Speaker 1: would be over, panic in London would be such and 93 00:05:57,716 --> 00:05:59,676 Speaker 1: would spread the rest of the country and people would 94 00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 1: see that the Germans could just come and bomb at will, 95 00:06:02,476 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 1: and they thought, you know, this could be this could 96 00:06:04,916 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 1: be it for us. They were terrified from top to bottom. 97 00:06:09,396 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 1: So the bombing comes in the fall of nineteen forty, 98 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:18,396 Speaker 1: the famous blitz, right, and it lasts about eight months, 99 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 1: and the Germans come, you know, not every night, but 100 00:06:22,636 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 1: there's one stretch where they come for fifty seven consecutive 101 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: nights and they drop tens of thousands of tons of 102 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 1: high explosive bombs on London. They damage a million buildings, 103 00:06:34,716 --> 00:06:37,356 Speaker 1: they wipe out much of the East End, and the 104 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: panic never comes, and nobody can believe it. They're like, 105 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: what happened? Why is everyone? In fact, not only does 106 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 1: a panic not come, but like after a little while, 107 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 1: people get so over it that they start going back 108 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 1: to their business and you know, they go to where 109 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 1: or they go to the pubs at night, they party, 110 00:07:01,276 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 1: they do all the things young people are on in 111 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 1: the streets. And as you can imagine, every psychiatrist, social scientists, 112 00:07:10,076 --> 00:07:13,796 Speaker 1: psychologists in England at the time is like driving around 113 00:07:13,836 --> 00:07:19,436 Speaker 1: London saying, I am witnessing something that makes no sense. Right, 114 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:24,276 Speaker 1: we've terror the Germans have terrorized the population of London. 115 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: And there's like kids playing you know, football in the streets, 116 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 1: and there's couples like going dancing at night, and there's 117 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: people dancing drinking in pubs and the bombs are falling. 118 00:07:37,196 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 1: It's this completely bizarre event to kick off the war. 119 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:46,276 Speaker 1: And so this British psychiatrist comes along. J. T. McCarthy, 120 00:07:46,316 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: the guy you mentioned the top, and he tries to 121 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:53,996 Speaker 1: explain what happened, and I think that's what that's the thing. 122 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:57,356 Speaker 1: It sounds like that drew your eye to that chapter. Yes, yes, 123 00:07:57,476 --> 00:08:00,556 Speaker 1: And that's what gets me because when I read this, 124 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 1: I thought about it all the time. When I first 125 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 1: read this, and this was back in twenty thirteen, I 126 00:08:04,316 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: thought about it all the time. And I remember he 127 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: divided them into three groups to direct hits, and those 128 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:13,476 Speaker 1: are the people that are dead, people that just didn't 129 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:16,356 Speaker 1: make it through the bombing. Then there were near misses. 130 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:19,516 Speaker 1: Those were people who were experiencing the devastation of the 131 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: bomb but did not experience death, or even people who 132 00:08:22,356 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 1: were close to someone who experienced the devastation of the bomb, 133 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 1: family member, whatever. Then there were the majority of London 134 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:34,036 Speaker 1: experience what he called remote misses, which is mean you 135 00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: heard about the bomb a few feet over, you felt 136 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: the rumbling, you felt the building shake, but you didn't 137 00:08:39,876 --> 00:08:42,876 Speaker 1: experience any devastation. And one are the quotes that you 138 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 1: wrote the book was that the morale of the community 139 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:49,316 Speaker 1: depends on the reaction of the survivors because the majority 140 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: of the community is experiencing remote misses. They have this 141 00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:56,276 Speaker 1: experience of feeling invulnerable as opposed to the people who 142 00:08:56,436 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: experienced near misses, who they actually have a higher sense 143 00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 1: of fear or a higher sense of actual danger when 144 00:09:03,596 --> 00:09:06,316 Speaker 1: the bombs fall. Yeah. So yeah, he does this thing 145 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:11,236 Speaker 1: which is in retrospect. I think it's incredibly brilliant. He 146 00:09:11,316 --> 00:09:16,516 Speaker 1: says that your reaction to a traumatic event is a 147 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:21,956 Speaker 1: function of your proximity to it. So you're right, there's 148 00:09:22,116 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 1: the people who are most proximate to a traumatic event, 149 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:26,836 Speaker 1: other ones who are killed by it. They're presumably the 150 00:09:26,916 --> 00:09:28,756 Speaker 1: ones who are the most terrified at the moment before 151 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 1: they died. But they're dead, right, Yeah, they can't spread 152 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 1: we don't know how they felt. They can't spread their feelings. 153 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: They have no impact. They're gone. Right. Second group near 154 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:43,156 Speaker 1: miss is they're the ones who the bomb drops in 155 00:09:43,196 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: the other room and they crawl out of the wreckage. 156 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 1: Those people have traumatized, Like there's no doubt about that. Like, 157 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:53,236 Speaker 1: that's that's like, that's like you're in a car accident 158 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:56,356 Speaker 1: and your car is totaled and they take you out 159 00:09:56,396 --> 00:09:59,796 Speaker 1: with the jaws of life. M right, that's that's your 160 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 1: that's your near miss, right, that'll stay with you. Has 161 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:03,596 Speaker 1: that ever happened to you, by the way, run You're 162 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 1: ever in a car accident like that? No, I have 163 00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 1: not either. I know some people who have a man 164 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 1: that like dead stays with you. That's like some serious 165 00:10:12,436 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: I actually have a personal near miss story, which is 166 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:20,396 Speaker 1: I when I was a kid, And funny enough, this 167 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:22,356 Speaker 1: is not traumatic for me, but traumatic for my father. 168 00:10:22,796 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I was going hiking with 169 00:10:24,316 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: my father in the winter on this gorge went in Canada, 170 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 1: and I'm about seven, and there's a sheer sheet of 171 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: ice down the side of the gorge that runs all 172 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:37,636 Speaker 1: the way to a frozen not a frozen over, but 173 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 1: a freezing cold, fast moving river. I slip slide down 174 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: the side of the gorge and come to a halt 175 00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:52,676 Speaker 1: six inches from this fast moving rapids river. Where had 176 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 1: I gone six more inches, I would be dead. Of course. Wow. 177 00:10:55,596 --> 00:11:00,076 Speaker 1: My dad never got over that. He like, you know, 178 00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:04,916 Speaker 1: he had to repel down the ice and like I'm 179 00:11:04,916 --> 00:11:07,476 Speaker 1: just sitting there six inches from the water on the ice, 180 00:11:07,596 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 1: right that was for him, that's a near miss, like 181 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: and he would talk about that, you know, forty years later, 182 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: like it had just happened, right, He's not the remote 183 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: miss though, is the category that really interested in McCurdy 184 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:26,836 Speaker 1: And he said, if the bombs across a street and 185 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 1: you survive, your response is not trauma but exhilaration. It's 186 00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:34,436 Speaker 1: like you get a new lease on life. Can I 187 00:11:34,476 --> 00:11:39,876 Speaker 1: read you from McCurdy? Absolutely, when we had been afraid 188 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:42,076 Speaker 1: that we may panic in an air aid, and when 189 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:45,356 Speaker 1: it has happened, and when we have exhibited to others 190 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 1: nothing but a calm exterior and we are now safe. 191 00:11:48,276 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 1: The contrast between the previous apprehension and the present relief 192 00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 1: and feeling of security promotes a self confidence that is 193 00:11:56,476 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: the very father and mother of courage. By the way, 194 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 1: how much do you low the way these guys right, Oh, brilliant, 195 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,876 Speaker 1: there's no what what like practicing site today. They would 196 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 1: write that in some gobble. It's like some academic and gobbledegook. 197 00:12:11,676 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 1: And he's talking about the father and mother of courage. 198 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:18,476 Speaker 1: I love that. You know the rest of that passage, 199 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 1: I think it starts you started in the middle, but 200 00:12:20,716 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 1: it starts with we are all not merely liable to fear, 201 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: but we also are prone to being afraid of being afraid, 202 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,996 Speaker 1: which I always love, because I've realized that most of 203 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 1: their ways in which that I've I've ever been afraid 204 00:12:33,276 --> 00:12:36,116 Speaker 1: of always been the anticipation that was really killing me. 205 00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:38,876 Speaker 1: I think I've very much embraced this ideology because the 206 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 1: idea of getting through the fear is kind of what J. T. 207 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 1: McCurdy gets at when he talks about what happens with 208 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:48,556 Speaker 1: the British. He's basically saying, like, they got through the fear, 209 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:51,796 Speaker 1: and because the majority of them went through remote misses, 210 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:53,996 Speaker 1: it's all of a sudden like I don't even need 211 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 1: to be scared anymore. Yeah, yeah, though I walk through 212 00:12:56,436 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 1: the value of death. Oh there goevil, for thou art 213 00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 1: with me. That Tiblical line is about this very phenomenon 214 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 1: that what it says is that the function of religious 215 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:12,476 Speaker 1: faith is to turn a near miss to a remote 216 00:13:12,476 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: a remote miss. Right. It's not that the danger is removed, 217 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 1: there's you're still walking to the valley of death. But 218 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: the idea is that God's with you, so you know, 219 00:13:20,916 --> 00:13:23,636 Speaker 1: it's it's not as it is no longer an occasion 220 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:27,396 Speaker 1: for panic and fear. It's something that you can see 221 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: to the other side of. Oh. Absolutely, that's my church moment. Too. Hey, hey, 222 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 1: we in here man, it's Tuesday. So so let me 223 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: ask you this. So we're at we're at the end 224 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 1: of the bombing. Um, how does the courage of the 225 00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:43,156 Speaker 1: English factor into the German plan? Because their goal was 226 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 1: to break the English and when it didn't happen, how 227 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 1: did courage factor into that plan? Well? So this actually 228 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: I talk a little about this in UM the bombom mafia. 229 00:13:54,356 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 1: Oh nice, like the plug. Yes, that it's super interesting. 230 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:05,236 Speaker 1: The Germans also assume that the British will crumble. That's 231 00:14:05,236 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 1: why they're doing this thing. No one had ever done 232 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 1: this in the history of warfare, before large scale aerial 233 00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 1: bombing of civilian populations. It was considered to be first 234 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 1: of all, no one had bombers before. But in you know, 235 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:22,556 Speaker 1: in the in the wars of the nineteenth century, you 236 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:26,076 Speaker 1: fought armies. You didn't you didn't slaughter civilians. But the 237 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:28,676 Speaker 1: Germans were like, oh, we think that if we bomb 238 00:14:28,716 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: the civilians, we'll bring the entire country to its needs. 239 00:14:31,516 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: We won't even have to fight their army. Doesn't happen, right, 240 00:14:35,316 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 1: Brits come through, Fine, then what do the Brits do? 241 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:42,396 Speaker 1: The Brits don't learn their own lesson. They have just 242 00:14:42,596 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: been through an experience where they where people have proven 243 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 1: to be a lot tougher and more resilient than they 244 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 1: would have imagined, and then they turn around forget that 245 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 1: and try the same failed experiment on the Germans. And 246 00:14:53,516 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: when confronted on this question the head of the British 247 00:14:57,116 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 1: Bomber Command, his answer was basically, well, I don't think 248 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:03,956 Speaker 1: Germans are as tough as English people, which is like 249 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:08,996 Speaker 1: such an obnoxious British thing to say. He couldn't wrap 250 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:11,516 Speaker 1: his mind around the fact that we were dealing here 251 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:15,756 Speaker 1: with something fundamental about human beings, which is that our 252 00:15:15,796 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 1: powers of courage and resilience, even foolhearty powers of courage 253 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: and resilience, are just way more considerable than we would 254 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 1: have imagined. We're not rational actors. Rationally, if you are 255 00:15:29,196 --> 00:15:32,236 Speaker 1: living in London during the Blitz of nineteen forty, you 256 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: should leave London? Are you kidding me? They're like, there's 257 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: just no reason for sticking around, and you have people 258 00:15:38,836 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: stick around. They're not rational. Yeah, it makes me think 259 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:46,196 Speaker 1: of the earliest days of the pandemic. Yeah, if we 260 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 1: talk about the fear that I had early on and 261 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 1: the way that I feel now we know that those 262 00:15:51,036 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 1: feelings are markedly different, because, like, if you go back 263 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 1: to the British and everything you said about what the 264 00:15:56,556 --> 00:15:58,876 Speaker 1: British thought was going to happen to them and the 265 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:02,716 Speaker 1: ways in which they prepared at the beginning, very similarly, 266 00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:04,796 Speaker 1: a lot of us were doing that same things at 267 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic. But it feels like in 268 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: this case, especially if we start looking at the COVID statistics. 269 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:14,036 Speaker 1: So at the time of this taping, out of a 270 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 1: population of about three hundred twenty million Americans, yeah, over 271 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: forty million Americans have been affected by COVID nineteen and 272 00:16:23,716 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: of that over forty million, about seven hundred and twenty 273 00:16:26,596 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 1: thousand have died. So it's about a two percent mortality rate, 274 00:16:30,476 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 1: which means the majority of us have been experiencing remote 275 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:37,236 Speaker 1: misses here. Two hundred and eighty million people are fine, 276 00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: I'm one of the two hundred and eighty million. I 277 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 1: don't think I got it, or if I got it, 278 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: I didn't even know I had it. So like you're you, 279 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,756 Speaker 1: You're right, the overwhelming number of Americans are people who 280 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 1: had remote misses here. Yeah, I think that. Unfortunately, because 281 00:16:52,756 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 1: there were so many remote misses that there was a 282 00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:58,476 Speaker 1: higher amount of preventable deaths that probably could have been 283 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 1: missed if the people that had remote misses had continued 284 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 1: the same practices. Now, I don't want this to become 285 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 1: a conversation of everybody getting basket to get immunizations. You know, 286 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: I understand that those are personal decisions, and I've done 287 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:14,876 Speaker 1: both because I feel like responsible for my community. But 288 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:17,356 Speaker 1: a lot of people haven't. And I think it's because 289 00:17:17,396 --> 00:17:21,156 Speaker 1: of this phenomenon of invulnerability. I e. COVID has come. 290 00:17:21,316 --> 00:17:23,556 Speaker 1: It did not get me, it didn't get the majority 291 00:17:23,556 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 1: of us. So we're good. Yeah, you don't have to 292 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: be Yes. It's funny. I think it's a perfect illustration 293 00:17:30,436 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: of what McCarty is talking about. Let's compare two actors here. 294 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 1: There is the person in East London in nineteen forty 295 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: joining the Blitz who has observed five people on their 296 00:17:43,036 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: street had their houses destroyed by German bombs, and you know, 297 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:52,236 Speaker 1: five of them died, but their house is still standing 298 00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: and their whole family is still alive. McCurdy would say, 299 00:17:56,156 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 1: is that person is a remote miss and they're like, whatever, 300 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: I'm fine, I survived, And they're the ones who are 301 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:06,076 Speaker 1: going to the pub, and they're the ones who are 302 00:18:06,156 --> 00:18:08,636 Speaker 1: going dancing on a Saturday night, And those are the 303 00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 1: ones who just went about business as usual. Now, that 304 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 1: person's response to the Blitz is probably best termed as 305 00:18:17,476 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: irrational in that they're not out of the woods. The 306 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 1: Germans are still coming night after night, but their psychological 307 00:18:23,516 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: interpretation of their experience is one of invulnerability. How is 308 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:31,436 Speaker 1: that person any different from the person who declines to 309 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: get vaccinated today? I think it's exactly the same. Yeah, 310 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:41,116 Speaker 1: only only one difference. The person joined the Blitz who 311 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:46,156 Speaker 1: act at all, and we know whose response was I'm invulnerable, 312 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:48,356 Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm gonna go back to work is considered 313 00:18:48,396 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 1: to be heroic and a hero. The unvaccinated person today 314 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 1: is considered to be a social shame now for good reasons. 315 00:18:56,956 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: But it's just funny about how a different circumstances, in 316 00:19:01,236 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 1: different times, we have very different responses to people who 317 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:09,636 Speaker 1: have this kind of psychological reaction of invulnerability. They cannot 318 00:19:09,716 --> 00:19:13,116 Speaker 1: be heroes or they can be chumps. So the reason 319 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: why I think that is, and you can help me 320 00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 1: with this, but the reason why I think that is 321 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 1: is because bombing feels more random than avoiding COVID. Avoiding 322 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: bombing feels more random than avoiding COVID because with COVID, 323 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that can do a lot 324 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 1: of things, right, Like, there's studies that show that wearing 325 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,636 Speaker 1: a mask helps prevent the spread of COVID. There's studies 326 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 1: that show that getting immunized helps prevent the spread of COVID. 327 00:19:39,436 --> 00:19:42,996 Speaker 1: There's studies that show that social distance helps prevent the 328 00:19:42,996 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 1: spread of COVID. All of these things that help prevent 329 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 1: the spread. And there's people that at every juncture have 330 00:19:47,676 --> 00:19:51,076 Speaker 1: avoided those three things and still not gotten sick. And 331 00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:54,156 Speaker 1: I think those people that are in the remote miss 332 00:19:54,196 --> 00:19:58,596 Speaker 1: category are somehow bolstering the numbers of people that feel 333 00:19:58,636 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: invulnerable in a way that's actually spreading harm in a 334 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: way that the bombing does it. Yeah, necessarily, because it's 335 00:20:05,156 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 1: still you could go to the pub and you could 336 00:20:06,916 --> 00:20:09,156 Speaker 1: still get bombed, even though you're not afraid, but you 337 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: could still get bombed. Yeah. The other aspect of this 338 00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 1: is what is your social responsibility here? You could argue 339 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:19,356 Speaker 1: that in nineteen forty during the blitz, you are actually 340 00:20:19,956 --> 00:20:25,596 Speaker 1: not reacting with panic. Is a fulfilling your social responsibility, 341 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:29,196 Speaker 1: that it's a good thing that you behave in that 342 00:20:29,956 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 1: mildly irrational way because you're in the middle of a war. 343 00:20:33,916 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 1: You have to fight, I mean, you have to sacrifice. 344 00:20:36,316 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 1: Social responsibility in terms of a contagious disease is the 345 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 1: opposite that behaving with caution and being appropriately fearful is 346 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: part of the way that we end diseases. So you 347 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: end a war by being irrational, you end up pandemic 348 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: by being rational. I love that. Right. You can even 349 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:03,356 Speaker 1: go further and just say that no soldier in wartime 350 00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:09,876 Speaker 1: can do their job without being irrational. It's nuts, right, 351 00:21:10,516 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: say more, Well, you can't. You're asking someone to go 352 00:21:13,676 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: out and like risk their life for some I mean 353 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: meaningful cause, but like it's still abstract to them. Like 354 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:24,236 Speaker 1: the rational response to being asked to fight in a 355 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:28,876 Speaker 1: war is to go crazy and get like sent to 356 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:32,436 Speaker 1: a psychiatric hospel for the That's actually the rational response. 357 00:21:32,556 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 1: But people don't see that, you know, I'm glad they don't. 358 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: They go through some experience in wartime believe that they 359 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: are a in the remote miss category and that's where 360 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 1: courage comes from. But so then it's courage irrational. Of course, 361 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:52,676 Speaker 1: it is Yeah, the rational thing, under any circumstances to 362 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 1: run knowing that I guess the question that I'm really 363 00:21:57,476 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 1: kind of that we're kind of like kind of circling. 364 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: Is understanding when courage is helpful, Yeah, and courage needs 365 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 1: to be restrict yeah, Or making it clear to people 366 00:22:13,276 --> 00:22:16,996 Speaker 1: who don't behave appropriately during a pandemic that the behavior 367 00:22:17,036 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 1: that they're exhibiting is not courageous. It may feelgeous or 368 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:25,796 Speaker 1: come from the same psychological place as wartime courage, but 369 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: it's not. It's and I This has been one of 370 00:22:30,916 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 1: my frustrations with the messaging around things like vaccination in 371 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 1: this country is that it's been too much about the 372 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 1: self and not enough about society. The argument should be 373 00:22:43,276 --> 00:22:46,236 Speaker 1: very simple. When we say to someone you should get vaccinated. 374 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: The wrong argument is you should get vaccinated because it 375 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 1: could save your life. Well, most people are. They have 376 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:56,236 Speaker 1: a remote misattitude about that. It's like saying you should 377 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:57,756 Speaker 1: leave London because it will say their life. Now, I'm 378 00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:00,916 Speaker 1: not leaving London as my home. The right answer is 379 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 1: you have an obligation to other people who are more 380 00:23:05,276 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 1: vulnerable than you to get vaccinated. I thought, you know 381 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:13,716 Speaker 1: things the other day that the single most powerful thing 382 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: that I read about the reason to get vaccinated were 383 00:23:17,156 --> 00:23:21,596 Speaker 1: these personal testimonies from nurses who are describing what they've 384 00:23:21,636 --> 00:23:26,276 Speaker 1: been through working in intensive care units during COVID, that 385 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 1: seeing people die day and day out, working in these 386 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 1: insane shifts, being completely burnt out. We are asking of 387 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:38,476 Speaker 1: people who you know, at the not the bottom of 388 00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 1: the healthcare food chain, but pretty close to it. We're 389 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: asking them to perform these unbelievably heroic acts. And if 390 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:50,796 Speaker 1: you don't get vaccinated, you're making the life of this 391 00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:56,276 Speaker 1: group of unbelievably heroic people a whole lot harder. Why 392 00:23:56,276 --> 00:24:00,796 Speaker 1: would you do that? Right? That's the argument, Right, So 393 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:04,396 Speaker 1: let's take it off the plane of let's acknowledge these 394 00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:08,956 Speaker 1: people feel invulnerable. Yes, you feel invulnerable. Fine, it's not 395 00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 1: about that, though. It's about you're making someone else's life miserable, 396 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 1: and that's not what we do when we're in a 397 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:21,276 Speaker 1: civilized society. Can you think of some examples of times 398 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: where community successfully went from eye to we in ways 399 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:28,316 Speaker 1: that we can learn from in trying to do that 400 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: in this moment? Now? Yeah, well there's a bunch of examples, 401 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: but one simple one would be One of the things 402 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 1: that turns the corner on smoking is the introduction of 403 00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 1: the idea of the dangers of secondhand smoke. We've been 404 00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: telling the smoker for a generation that they are endangering 405 00:24:46,516 --> 00:24:49,676 Speaker 1: their own life, and we had very limited success in 406 00:24:49,716 --> 00:24:52,836 Speaker 1: getting people to stop smoking under those circumstances. And then 407 00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:57,036 Speaker 1: the conversation shift and we literally stopped talking about not 408 00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:01,116 Speaker 1: talking exclusively about the smoker, and we started talking about 409 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 1: the people around the smoker, and it became a matter 410 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 1: of collective responsibility. Right. I'm old enough to remember when 411 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:10,436 Speaker 1: you could smoke into of an airplane. They had a 412 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,876 Speaker 1: smoking section the back of an airplane. That stopped not 413 00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:15,636 Speaker 1: because we were trying to prolong the lives of the 414 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: people smoking in the back of airplanes, but because everyone said, oh, 415 00:25:18,956 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 1: wait a minute, what about all the non smokers. It's 416 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 1: about creating a safe environment and congenial environment for them. 417 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:31,316 Speaker 1: That was a huge shift and really successful, because you know, 418 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 1: it was a way of reaching smokers and to say 419 00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:34,956 Speaker 1: you couldn't smoke, but you can't smoke in the back 420 00:25:34,996 --> 00:25:38,556 Speaker 1: of the airplane. They may have felt invulnerable when it 421 00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:41,676 Speaker 1: came to the individualized risks because most smokers do not 422 00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 1: die of lung cancer a lot too, but not most 423 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:46,996 Speaker 1: of them. Right, So it's for most people it's a 424 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:51,356 Speaker 1: pretty remote miss category. Do you think that that messaging 425 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 1: is the only way to truly win the war during 426 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:58,276 Speaker 1: this pandemic? Because again, knowing the majority of us have 427 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 1: experienced remote missus. But now we're all making personal decisions 428 00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 1: as to how we're going to engage with the community 429 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:06,196 Speaker 1: and how we're going to be protective of those around us. 430 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 1: So I guess the big greater question I'm asking is 431 00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: how do we take this information and use it to 432 00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:17,636 Speaker 1: end the war on COVID? Yeah? We stop. And to 433 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:21,276 Speaker 1: my mind, the great frustrating thing in public discourse in 434 00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:26,076 Speaker 1: this country around a whole series of issues is we've 435 00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 1: fallen so in love with the language of personal freedom 436 00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:33,836 Speaker 1: and responsibility that we've forgotten the power of collective appeals 437 00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:37,956 Speaker 1: to community. We don't use that language anymore. No one 438 00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:41,156 Speaker 1: ever says, it's not about you, it's about it's about 439 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:44,876 Speaker 1: your service to others. Right, It's like the I mean, 440 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 1: since we're being churchy today, the whole the whole message 441 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:55,716 Speaker 1: of the New Testament is about, like, you're do one 442 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 1: too others as you would have to do it. I mean, 443 00:26:57,756 --> 00:26:59,556 Speaker 1: not even a New Testament, the Old Testament too. The 444 00:26:59,596 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: whole message is about some awareness of your place in 445 00:27:02,676 --> 00:27:06,916 Speaker 1: a community, right, It's not about you. That is the 446 00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: single most powerful, you know, message in human history. And 447 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:16,076 Speaker 1: we've like, well, suddenly get into these arguments where it's well, 448 00:27:16,156 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 1: one side saying well, it's my personal choice and freedom 449 00:27:19,276 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 1: and the other person the other side. I was saying, well, 450 00:27:21,036 --> 00:27:24,596 Speaker 1: you need to be a rational actor and stop with 451 00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:28,596 Speaker 1: the eyes already, Like enough with I I love it. 452 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:30,996 Speaker 1: I love it, Ronald. When we get churchy, Let's get 453 00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 1: churchy every time we do these. Yeah, don't pass with me, man, 454 00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 1: I'll come with you with scripture every time. Yeah, I'm 455 00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:39,956 Speaker 1: the one who quit scripture, not you. I was waiting 456 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,236 Speaker 1: for you to come back at me. I'm like I'm 457 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 1: doing I walked in the Valley or Shadow of Death. 458 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:50,436 Speaker 1: I got crickets on your end. Malcolm, thank you so 459 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:52,236 Speaker 1: much for being with us again. It's always a pleasure 460 00:27:52,236 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 1: of ue on the show. Thank you, Ronald, Always a pleasure. 461 00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:02,156 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell is the author of David and Goliath and 462 00:28:02,196 --> 00:28:05,516 Speaker 1: the co founder of Pushkin Industry. He also hosts one 463 00:28:05,516 --> 00:28:09,636 Speaker 1: of our sister podcasts here at Pushkin Revisionist History available 464 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: everywhere you get podcasts, and you should check out his 465 00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:16,996 Speaker 1: new audio book, The Bomber Mafia. Solvable is produced by 466 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 1: Jocelyn Frank, research by David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn. 467 00:28:21,956 --> 00:28:25,716 Speaker 1: Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer 468 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 1: is Mia LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Thanks for listening.