WEBVTT - Leaving It All Behind (A Goodbye to Boysober) 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.359 I've been doing this whole boy sover thing for almost 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:10.880 thirty months now, and somehow I still end up in 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.920 the exact same pattern. It always starts the same way. First, 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.760 I swear off men. It feels amazing outside. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.840 The sun is on my skin, the wind is in 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.240 my hair, and I am finally tired of hurting myself 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:27.200 with the same man. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.360 Then I boy lapse. Yes, the man that is supposed 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.440 to not be in my life came over today and 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.040 I liked it, okay, And then I swear I'm going 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.240 to end it by going celibate again. 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.720 I ended a situationship tonight that has lasted for eighteen months, 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.080 and I told my friends and my family and my 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.600 loved ones, and everyone. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:56.120 Half believes me. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:05.200 But it's okay because I believe in myself. In our 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.920 final episode of the series, I wanted to leave y'all 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.600 with some reassurance that I'm not about to fall back 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:18.240 into my old ways, which is why we're going to 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:28.600 a monastery. Yes, my friends, family and producers are basically 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:33.400 removing me from all outside temptations and I'm joining the sisterhood. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.320 I'm hopewondard and welcome to voiceover a space where we're learning, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.360 and I'm learning all the myths we're taught about love 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:52.560 and relationships. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:10.840 Was I supposed to go there? Yes, a bit. That's okay, Okay, 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.680 that is she's gonna It's okay. We still have a 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.360 three forty two arrival. Okay, beautiful, okay, okay. 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.400 I am not becoming a nun, but I am desperate 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.399 to understand how they live the lives they do, and 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.880 I'm honestly so sick of myself. I've gotten myself in 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.959 the same position so many times that I convinced my 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.480 producer Emily, to drive three hours upstate with me to 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:41.720 immerse ourselves in the monastery. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.160 You've been talking about this all year. You have wanted 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:45.280 to talk to a nun? Oh? 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:51.360 Yeah, I mean, I'm just so interested in their motivation. 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.400 We're headed to Transfiguration Monastery in Windsor, New York, where 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.640 two of the nuns, Sister Sheila and Sister Donald, agreed 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.400 to be interviewed and even host us for the weekend. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.720 I think part of what draws me to nuns is 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.639 how completely different their lives are from mine. They've chosen 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.760 a path of seclusion, while my whole career has been 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.160 based on being a public persona. They pledged their life 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.240 to God, and I have rejected the church I was 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.600 raised in. I can't give up men for one year, 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.799 and they've committed to doing it for life. And yet 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.320 we share one big thing in common. We're both interested 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.880 in building lives that don't revolve around men. That idea, 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.400 what it really means to disenter men is what's been 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.000 occupying my mind a lot lately. Bigger than taking a 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.480 break from dating or stepping away from sex. It's about 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.760 untangling myself from dependence on men and building a life 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.800 where I can engage in a real relationship rather than 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:58.440 just using men to feel less alone. When I ended 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.720 things with that last situation, the one that's been dragging 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.880 on and off for longer than I've been making this podcast, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.960 I felt like I hit rock bottom. But maybe that's 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.040 just what it takes to make real change. I need 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.440 a new perspective. I need to step outside of my 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.000 usual environment, try something different and see what happens. Because 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.239 whatever I've been doing so far, it hasn't been working. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.479 And I just don't think I can figure this out 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:26.960 on my own. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.720 And this is kind of like, this is your hurdle. 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:32.839 Like this is your thing in life? 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.200 Yeah, no, like, oh, this is my pattern. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.400 Yes. It's like sort of every time I interact with 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:40.640 a man. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.600 In the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm not 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.479 supposed to be doing this, and I am not good 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:47.799 at trusting myself. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.919 I actually have almost no self trust. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.120 If I can reflect for a bit, I think you 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.640 have to figure out not do guys want me? But 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:57.440 what do I want? 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:57.839 I know? 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:03.200 I know, No, that is my uh, that is the hill. 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:06.240 I have to climb. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.560 That's why I like, don't really think I'm a sex addict, 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.719 because I'm like, I'm not a sex addict. 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:13.720 I'm just a validation. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.760 It's the validation and it's not it's the inability. Well, 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.120 it's like I'm not just a peopil pleaser. It's like 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:29.320 I have an incapacity to present myself and like stand 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.720 in it. You know. With this guy the situationship most recently, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.280 it is psychotic. What a pedestal I had him on. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.839 I was always maybe so jealous of how he could 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.520 just prioritize his career over everything else, like that was 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:48.800 the most important thing. And it's like for a man, 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.359 that's very easy, Like women are not told from the 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.280 jump that that's the most important thing to do. It's 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.520 like I was told to like be nice and literally 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.840 find a man and support them and never make them 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.320 feel bad about themselves and never ask for too much. 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.360 So whenever you recommit to the voiceover thing, is that 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:10.760 one of your goals. 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.120 To put myself on a pedestal. Yeah? 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.600 I like that you bring up like recommitting. I'm actually 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:20.240 scared to recommit because I don't want to not be 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.800 able to do it again. Yeah, but I'm not somebody 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.760 who is super comfortable with. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.440 Like knowing what I want for the future. When you 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:31.680 give something. 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.320 Up, you do have to really, really really want to 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:35.840 give it up. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.279 Yes, So what do you think we're gonna learn from 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.839 the nuts about all of this? I'm interested in their motivations. 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.680 There are people that had to be They had to 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.760 be very clear in what they wanted in order to 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.159 choose this life that I feel like that's where maybe 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:53.240 we've got something to learn. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.760 I think you're totally right, Emily, Like, I'm interested to 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.560 know if they ever sort of like had a man, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.680 do you rail their life or their emotions for a man. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:05.960 Let's not even give men that much credit. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.960 You know what I mean, like, because that's what I 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.280 said to this situationship on the phone, was like, you 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.040 are like a magnet for all of my emotion and 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.880 it's like so obviously not about you. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.800 So it's like, did he derail my life? 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:23.440 No? 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:28.600 I was like using the situation I said to him, 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.400 I said, I swear to God, I'm like addicted to 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.920 the feeling of rejection you give me all the time. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.840 Yeah, I get to hate myself with you. 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:37.320 Yeah. 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:37.920 Wouldn't it be. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:39.800 Great if you were addicted to something that made you 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:40.400 love yourself? 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:40.640 Oh? 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.320 God, yeah, let me get addicted to joy real quick. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.640 What do you think that could even mean? Well, you 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.760 want to know what like it? 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.120 Sech We said, it's like I'm trying to put myself 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.840 on a pedestal a little bit now. And I you know, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.080 even saying that out loud, I'm like, it feels uncomfortable 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:57.560 to say. 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.920 It feels like selfish. And maybe that's not even the 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:02.160 right answer. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.400 Maybe it's just like, understand that you're worthy of what 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.200 everyone else is worthy of, you know, right? 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:15.080 Yeah, Okay, we're getting closer to the monastery. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.760 Ah is it used books? 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:21.840 Yo? 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:24.000 Is this them? 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:25.960 Is this? 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:34.040 I think so hello, Hi, are any of you Sister Sheila? 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.360 Oh, let's sister Sheila. 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.120 How are you good? 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:40.920 Hi? Everybody? 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:42.000 True? 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:42.720 Great. 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.040 The second we pulled up to Transfiguration Monastery and saw 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.920 Sister Sheila, I knew coming up here was the right decision. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.760 Gosh, what is. 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.800 Your first impression of Sister Sheila. Oh, Sister Sheila has 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.800 a face filled with truth, true, think kind is. Her 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:02.360 eyes are bright. 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:11.320 She just looks unbothered, like she's not anxious. You can tell, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.480 you can tell that she's like not anxious about anything. 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.840 As we drove up that long gravel path to the monastery, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:24.319 there was a pond, big swaths of grass and trees everywhere. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:31.800 Dude, there's a bunch of little red buildings, very curious. 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:36.000 Parking. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.320 On the main grounds of the monastery. There are about 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:44.320 six simple red buildings scattered across the property. They include 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.240 the hermitages where the nuns live, a main house that 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:52.400 holds a chapel, a library with a gift shop, and 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.280 the guest house where we were staying. 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:12.800 Okay, okay, thank you, oh heard, but that's the first house. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.480 Okay, so that's what you'd be saying. 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.400 Okay, vespers if you want to come is a poor 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.120 three Vespers. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:21.000 It's an evening prayer. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.920 Basically, we arrived around four pm and threw our stuff 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:26.680 in the guest house so that we could make it 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.760 to Vespers by four p thirty. I didn't know what 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.200 to expect, but I knew we had to be there. 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.960 Emily and I ran over to the chapel and prayed 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:41.080 with the sisters, singing psalms or trying to sing them. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.680 We obviously didn't know them as. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:44.199 Well as they did. 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.319 It's one of their daily rituals. Some describe it as 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.920 a daily check in with God. My relationship with being 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.199 a Christian is complicated. I was raised in the Church, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.679 but I barely identify. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:57.960 As one anymore. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.800 As we prayed with the sisters and the quiet harmony 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:06.040 of my surroundings sank in, I started to think that 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.280 maybe this was a place where I could start believing 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:29.160 in something, even if that thing is myself. A lot 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.920 of us carry assumptions about what it means to be 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:32.400 a nun. 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:34.360 I know I did. 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.760 I used to think it was a more conservative path, 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.040 one that meant giving up autonomy and service of a 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.800 patriarchal institution. But when I met Sister Sheila and Sister Donald. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.439 That belief immediately changed. Both women are in their eighties 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:55.440 and are deeply accomplished academics. Sister Donald is a theologian 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.280 with a PhD from Fordham University and it's currently working 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:04.360 on for books. Sister Sheila has a love for ancient 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:10.480 languages Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and now is learning Italian so 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.720 she can better communicate with her fellow sisters in Rome. 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.240 When we sat down with them at the kitchen table 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.199 of the guest house, we were excited to understand what 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.679 led them to this life they chose. We already knew 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:28.320 their paths looked different. Sister Donald entered the sisterhood at nineteen, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.120 while Sister Sheila didn't take that step until around forty. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.920 But as they shared their stories, one thing became clear. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.040 This wasn't about giving up agency for both of them. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.080 It was a way of claiming it. Remember when I 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.560 said I wanted to ask whether their lives had ever 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.600 been derailed by a man, Well, that question turns out 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.760 to be at the heart of Sister Sheila's origin story. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.280 When I was young, it was just expected that once 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.280 you graduated from college or finished your at occasion the 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.680 next step was to get married, and there were not 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.000 very many jobs for women at the time. There was 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.720 basically teaching and nursing and being a secretary, and that 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:13.160 was it. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:14.000 You know. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.400 I felt that I was under a tremendous amount of 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:21.400 pressure to get married, which I did, and the man 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.959 I married turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic, which 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.040 revealed itself a couple of weeks into the marriage. Everybody said, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.360 be glad you found out this quickly and get out. 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:33.280 So I did. 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.280 How old were you when you divorced? 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:36.559 Twenty seven? 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:37.480 Wow? 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:45.520 I made a choice for celibacy before I became a sister. Really, yes, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.920 I found that it was very freeing to be celibate, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.439 to not always feel that I had to be in 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:54.720 orbit around a man. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.640 When did you sort of take this vow of celibacy 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:58.040 or whatever? 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:59.120 When did you decide? 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.360 I didn't take of how I just decided that celibacy 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.400 was what I wanted when you were young, when I 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.120 was young. And then I thought, okay, world, you know, 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.000 I did what you wanted me to do. I got married, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.880 and now I'm free to do what I want. And 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.080 I had always wanted to learn classical Greek so I 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.200 started taking Greek lessons, and I wanted to learn Hebrew, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.240 so I started learning Hebrew. You know, I had a 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.640 very very rich life without a man in my life. Hm. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.800 You know, I haven't missed being in a relationship with 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.360 a man. It's not something that I, you know, that 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.480 I really wanted to get into after that happened. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:39.200 And then you. 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.360 Didn't join the sisterhood until you're forty forty and what 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:43.560 was making that decision? 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.200 Like, after the fiasco of my marriage, I felt sort 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.000 of launched into a spiritual search, which had not been 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.680 something I had been pursuing before. At that point, I 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.880 you know, I didn't even think of myself as somebody 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.080 who went to church. And then a friend of mine 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.440 invited me to go to her church, which was an 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:09.080 Episcopal church that was run by some Episcopalian monks. And 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.240 after the experience with my husband, I had such bad 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.680 nightmares that I ended up not wanting to go to sleep. 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.880 And so one of the monks at the monastery I 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.280 had met in this church suggested that I learned to 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.080 pray complin, which is the monastic payer of the day 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.840 before we go to bed, and that really helped a lot. 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:38.080 So you know, I started going to church again and 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:39.600 it really spoke to me. 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.680 I want to say something about Sister Donald. First of all, 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.240 she is a presence of authority. If Sister Sheila's face 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.200 is filled with truth, Sister Donald is filled with something 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:58.720 like divine wisdom. She's stoic and not easily shaken. It's 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.960 clear she wouldn't have gotten way without the Sisterhood. It 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.320 was a path to education, and she always used her 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.840 position to seek out knowledge on her own terms. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.880 One day on Faster Saint Patrick, I don't know if 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.080 you want to use this. When I was working on 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.920 my dissertation, tried to finish it for the guy, bought 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.040 a ham sandwich and two beers. I had two beers, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.240 and I read an article in Short Article and Commonwealth 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.800 magazine that Michael I forget what his last name was, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.000 had a new job at the Rockefeller Foundation for special 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.360 grants for young people in professions, you know, like law 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.800 and medicine and so forth. They helped them denite that, well, 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.440 what about monastic life? So I sat down my typewriter, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.280 immediately kind of high on the beer, wrote him a 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.720 letter and I said, what about monastic life? He was 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.040 a well known Catholic, and so I got a call 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.080 from the Rockefeller Foundation. In two days come down for 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.680 an interview. I got a six months scholarship to go 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:02.520 to Jerusalem. 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.840 Wow, I don't think I've ever heard that story. I 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.080 know you've had time in Jerusalem, but I don't know 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:10.960 how you got the scholarship to go there. 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.439 But have you all ever struggled with the decision to 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.480 leave in general? Like, if you've ever struggled with that decision. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.639 I haven't, No, no, no. 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:27.040 Because it's not day to day, it's not always an 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:34.280 easy life. And our choice of monastic life is it's 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.680 not just a personal choice. It's a covenant with God. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.919 And it's not like going into a certain line of 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.920 work and then deciding it's not for you anymore and say, Okay, 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.960 I'm ready for a change. You know. It's really a 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.920 life commitment that I have always felt was binding. 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.080 At that point, I was almost envious of the way 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.480 Sister Sheila and Sister Donald talked about their monastic lives. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.520 How for them it creates rather than restriction. It gave 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.760 them a sense of freedom, a sharper understanding of their purpose, 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.719 and the agency to pursue exactly what they want out 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.520 of life, and they're clear on what that is. Something 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.879 that's like coming up for me, is it sounds like 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:21.000 you're good at listening to yourself. You know, I am 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:26.760 not too well versed in listening to myself, Sister Donald. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:28.679 I was wondering if you could sort of speak to 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.320 the connection between listening to yourself and listening to God 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.520 and if there are similarities, or if that is in 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:37.680 some ways one and the same. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.440 I don't think they're identical, but I think they're very close. 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.680 And I'll give you an article to read and we'll 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.879 go into it now. But it says that the Holy 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:52.680 Spirit is the selfing of myself. The Holy Spirit nudges 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:57.879 us to grow and speak cterially to us, and you know, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.200 makes us love the things we love, and so that, yes, 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:06.760 I think that it's very close. You know, the Holy 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.480 Spirit is the selfiing of myself. I truly believe that. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.520 I don't quite have a relationship to prayer. 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.439 What do you think people get wrong about prayer? 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.280 Well, they think they have to beg bag beg and 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.160 I think you just have to be in the presence 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.480 of God, just meditate, you know. I think if there's 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:31.480 one spiritual discipline that Western Christians particularly need. It's meditation, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.560 where they just quiet down because you know, our monkey 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.320 mind is going like this, and so you know, to 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.760 learn to simply be quiet and center. Because of class 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.919 said to me one time, well, is meditation prayer? My 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:50.520 answer was, if it's not prayer, there's nothing closer. It's 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.600 learning to simply be receptive. That's what I think. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.480 Everything Sister Donald is describing, whether or not you personally 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.080 believe in it Christian holy spirit, it can be translated 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.199 into something broader, a sense of spirituality, of getting in 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.520 touch with your own inner life. It's about locating that 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:15.640 innate core, really knowing who you are, the selfing of 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.040 the self. That kind of clarity feels almost accessible in 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.480 a place like a monastery. But as Sister Donald and 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:28.440 Sister Sheila pointed out, monastic life requires a very particular 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.880 kind of person. So the real question becomes, how does 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.520 this translate to life outside of these walls? How do 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.000 you take those ideas and actually live them day to day? 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.560 For me, that curiosity kept circling back to one thing 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.920 I had to ask about celibacy. Can I ask you 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:54.399 what you think like this might be a stupid question, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.000 but I'm like, why is celibacy a part of that package? 0:20:58.000 --> 0:20:59.960 What does it do for your spiritual life? 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.200 Well, what comes to my mind first of all is freedom, 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.760 because when you're tied up with one person in a 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.560 relationship that tends to be somewhat exclusive, right, I mean, 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.720 it's not totally exclusive. You have friends, you have neighbors 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.639 and so forth. But if you're going to live in 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:21.359 community with a number of people, you know, marriage or 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.720 even a non celibate relationship within that context got to 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.000 be disruptive, you know. You know, like I entered at 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:34.159 a younger age, maybe I didn't realize the full cost 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.399 of what a life of celibacy would see. But you know, 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:43.360 you enter into the voled life. It's genuinely with sincere 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.879 intentions and so forth, but you kind of have to 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.560 live into them. All the vows, and I remember, even 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.280 before I made my final vows, I think the bishop 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.720 was delegated to come and ask you specific questions. Now, 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.200 is it going to be hard for you? You know, if 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.359 you're shopping downtown, you see a beautiful at in a 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.840 window and you might be tempted away. Was about poverty 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.840 and so forth, but no questions about celibacy, and I 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.080 think they didn't know how to deal with it. I 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.760 think the transformation of rows is really what celibacy is about. 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:28.480 Aros is lust. Everything from lust and greedy forms to effectivity, friendship, 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:33.800 all of these are manifestations of arrows, and so part 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.240 of the challenge of life is learning to transform arrows. 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:42.520 And sometimes that happens self consciously. Sometimes it's just the 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.600 lessons of life teaching us. 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.800 You know, it's like, I'm thinking, Okay, how do I 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:52.160 go back to New York and transform my eras you know. 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.000 I think it takes I feel psychological insight. I think 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.480 you've got to really look at your needs, what you're 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.879 projecting on that person, your own shadow, you know, what's 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.480 undeveloped in yourself. And so it can be a learning 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:13.880 experience in a sense. It's learning how to love, understanding love, 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:18.720 getting insights and love getting insights on relationships that matter 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.600 to us and why do they matter to us? And 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.160 you know, if I look at my friendships over the years, 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:29.000 you know, what do those relationships teach me? And how 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.120 have I grown in my sense? I, you. 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.280 Know, am thinking of a certain crush. You know, maybe 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:39.600 a forbidden crush. I'm wondering, when was the last time 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:42.240 you had a crush and how did you have to 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:47.200 transform that energy? If you don't mind sharing, I you know. 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:52.440 I've had crushes on people who were inappropriate, not available, 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:56.159 and I just had, you know, a very clear sense 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.679 of right and wrong. And you know this is not 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:03.439 a relationship that I can pursue because to do so 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.480 would violate my sense of right and wrong. There was 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.880 a man that I knew at one point in my life, 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:16.240