WEBVTT - Galea on Bringing the Pandemic Under Control 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.720 by searching Bloomberg Global News. We've had a bunch of 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.920 headlines about the virus, and of course we were just 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:39.840 talking about kind of the push poll when it comes 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.559 to opening up schools. Let's get to one of our 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.319 go to voices when it comes to the virus and 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.320 find out really the headlines you need to be aware of. 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:51.360 Dr Sandro Gallea. He's dean and professor at Boston University 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.080 School of Public Health, author of Pained Uncomfortable Conversations about 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.240 the Public's health. He joins us once again on the 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.600 phone from Boston, Sona, I um Saunder to have you 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.600 here with us once again. I do feel like we 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.000 are at this really tough point where there is so 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.280 much pressure to reopen the economy, um, because there's people 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:13.560 who need to go back to work. We need to 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.119 get the economy moving again. But yet we're still nervous 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.160 about what we don't know about this virus and then 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.120 of course the spikes that we're seeing, certainly in the 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.800 western part of our country. What do we need to 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.880 know about where we are right now? Well, thank you 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.319 for having me again. We we should be nervous. You 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.880 said that we are nervous about where we are at, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.160 and I think it's appropriate for us to be nervous. 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.600 At the same time. We're at a point where we 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.800 should have the sophistication to balance nervousness about risk with 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:43.440 the things that we need to do to get our 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.360 country moving again. And that is where in some respects 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.360 or political conversation has failed us. But leaving the politics 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.640 out of it, we as citizens should know that we 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.960 are still in the middle of this pandemic, that we 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.440 have more cases than we've ever had during the pandemic 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.640 it's has shifted geographies. It's gone from the northeast to 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.960 the epicenters now being in the south and in the southwest. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.120 We also should know that we are learning more and 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.400 more about how this pandemic is transmitted. We know that 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:16.160 being inside and being in closed congreg congregation is what 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.440 is largely fueling this pandemic, which means that we should 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.640 be as much as possible outside social distancing, wearing masks. 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.320 We know that if we did this across the board, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.560 we should be able to bring this pandemic under control now. 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.799 At the same time, the challenge is that the fear, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.200 the temptation is to say we cannot do anything. We 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.040 are captive health, captive by this pandemic. But we've been 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.520 at this now for almost six months and I think 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.200 our job together is to figure out how to manage 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:46.800 the risk so we can do what we need to 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.080 do as a society. What do you think, Dr Ghalia 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:56.280 is the most important thing we've learned about sort of 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.480 the way of life. I mean, you mentioned social distancing 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.440 and math, and clearly that's top of mind for most people, 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.640 although as you alluded to earlier, there's a political aspect 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.440 to that, as well, what do you think is the 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:14.919 thing that's most important we understand about this virus and transmission. Increasingly, 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.720 we are beginning to understand that the virus is spread 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.440 when we are inside with a lot of people present 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:27.160 who are not taking precautions with poor circulation. So that 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.520 means that what we should avoid large gatherings, We should 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.519 avoid being together with hundreds of people, and we should 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.320 always be wearing masks when we're inside, and we should 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.480 be keeping our distance from people as much as possible 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.000 that we know. We also know that you're much less 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.640 likely to get the virus, for example, when you're outside 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.520 and when you're when you're distant from people. So in 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:53.320 some respect, those two observations by themselves should be enough 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:54.840 to tell us what we should do and what we 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.240 shouldn't do, and that should go a long way towards 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.320 mitigating spread. Yeah, but that makes it often trick then 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.280 to open up a major city. Right well, if well 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:05.880 we are in we are in summer and much of 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.000 the country right now, which of course helps us because 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:09.960 we can be outside much more than we normally can 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.600 become much harder. One so we get to October November, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.240 of course, you know I'm in the middle of in 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.839 my day job as a dean of the schools public Health, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.680 in the business of reopening the school for the fall. 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.840 And we are, like any other large organization, implementing steps 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.240 to have people being distant, to make sure everybody wears masks, 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.760 to make sure everybody's washing their hands, to limit number 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.440 of people in the building. So it's complicated, and it's 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.320 certainly it's certainly difficult, but it's the right thing to do. 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.560 And certainly, although it's harder than say giving up and 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.360 just saying we're all going to stay in our houses, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.440 it is a way for us to learn to deal 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.400 with risk, to minimize the risk as much as possible, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.240 but create the economic and social opportunities that we want 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.600 to live for. And So Dr Galia, what are you 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.440 doing specifically, or what's what's an interesting thing that maybe 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.200 you guys come up with because you had the benefit, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.479 as you say, and or maybe the additional weight of 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.200 running a school. But it's also a school of public health, 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.520 so you have the best advice and and the best 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.599 people around you, including yourself, to make these decisions. So 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:15.960 what's something you can share with us that you guys 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.000 have come up with for for your campus and your crew. Well, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.440 I think there are there are two levels of precautions. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.440 Level one is making sure that we have sufficient testing 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.200 so that we can catch cases early, so we can 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.320 we can isolate people who have who are COVID positive 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.200 as well as find their contact and isolate them as well, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.760 So that's level one. Level one means making sure that 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.840 you catch cases early so that cases do not become 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.720 clusters that do not work in the epidemic. Level two 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.280 is assuming that you're doing Level one, which means you're 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.520 catching cases early. Is making sure then that the virus 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.359 doesn't spread in a community, and to do that you 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.800 need to distance people, keep people apart from each other, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.720 and make sure everybody's wearing a mask, and make sure 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.479 that you have high hygiene and sanitation. Now, in the 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.240 context of US school, we for example, normally have many 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.640 more people in a given classroom than we will have 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.080 in the fall, so we will be spacing people out 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.160 six feet apart and probably not have all the students 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.159 in the same classroom. At the same time, we have 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.320 developed systems that we are able to teach our courses 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.120 in person, yes, but also with a digital component. So 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.279 some students will be online while some will be in 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.360 a classroom. Now, these are these are difficult measures to 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.320 put in place. They require work, They require a lot 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.400 of thought about how to do them. But it is 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.640 our way in our particular context to make sure that 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.239 we can return to teaching, make sure students can continue 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.800 towards their educational goals, but also keeping every dication. You 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.040 are listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Let's get right back 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.760 to our conversation with Dr Sandro Galia, dean at the 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.680 Boston University School Public Health, also the author of Pained 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:51.359 Uncomfortable Conversations about the Public's Health and Dr Galia that 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.720 Carol and I were talking via insent messages in the break. 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.480 I'm so glad you reminded us what we're talking before 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.200 that you also are the dean of this man in 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:01.920 public health school. Gives you know, we think of you 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.840 as this expert doctor. You've got so many different things 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.719 on your plate, not the least of which is you know, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.440 we talked about getting students and faculty back on campus, 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.560 but a wrinkle this week with the visa issue brought 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.160 up by the President. How are you looking at that 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.280 and how does it potentially affect your student body. Yeah, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.360 the the visa guidance from the President is one in 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.520 a long line of divisive moves that really are are 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.560 inspired by cruelty, more dentiting else there that it makes 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.640 uh that there's no logic in the pandemic as to 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.400 why that visa move was necessary. What the visa move 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:45.160 does is it prohibits students international students from getting educational 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.080 visa for online only courses. Now, in our school, we 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.600 are doing all our teaching as a hybrid both in 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.480 person and online, so it should not affect our students, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.040 but many of our peer schools, schools of public health, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.640 undergraduate schools, and many other undergraduate colleges that have moved 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.080 their teaching to all online, their students, at least as 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:05.800 it stands right now, may not be able to get 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.680 visas to study United States. So this is really another 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.280 example of the administration's efforts to divide us and by 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.240 casting blame on on the other on this notion that 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.040 it is is immigrants who are bringing challenges to our shores, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.400 when nothing could be further from the truth. Yeah, I 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.800 just I do wonder about this move. And as you said, 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.040 in terms of the impact and your school maybe you're 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.400 not going to feel it as much, but there are 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.640 schools that really are dependent on it um because they 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.440 want the diverse body, but they also financially, it's an 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.120 important component of the of their overallaw you know, their 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:44.360 overall financial picture. Uh No, absolutely, it's uh. You know, 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:49.280 for any any any excellent graduate school, or really any 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.840 excellent university aspires to create an environment that is diverse. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.400 That means including Americans, including students from all over the world, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.760 including students of all strips. That is how we learned that. 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.120 It's how we build a pluralistic society where we learn 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.960 how to think together from people who are different than us. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.240 What dis guidance does is it tries to remove from 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.000 our communities students who are not from here. And that 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.720 is that that that hurts us as much as it 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.520 hurts them. It hurts us as a country because we 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.719 are taking away from us the capacity to be with, 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.840 learned from debate with students from other backgrounds. And of 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.480 course it hurts students from these other backgrounds who cannot 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.040 come and pursue their educational dreams in this country. It 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:35.120 really is a lose lose for us in for the world. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:42.360 So I wonder six months from now, eight months from now, 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.680 three months from now, do you feel like we will 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.760 feel all more normal because we will be back at work, 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.280 back at school. What's the time frame I'm Sandra, that 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.360 you think is realistic here at this point. Yeah, Carol, 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:57.599 I think that's the question we all want to know 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.040 the answer to. I also want to know the answer 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.400 to that. You know, I think you'll find that anybody 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.280 in public health is very reluctant to get the answers 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.840 simply because we do not know, and given where the 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.360 stage of the pandemic is now, it's really difficult to tell. 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.360 Will we eventually get through this pandemic. We definitely will. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.480 There will be we will get to a vaccine, or 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.040 the pandemic will stop. There will be enough herd immunity 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.440 to depandemic will stop. It's hard to say how long 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.080 this will take. Will it take three months, will it 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.360 take six months, Will it take a year. It's really 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.640 hard to make those kind of estimates. And for any 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.240 estimate I give you, I could argue against my own estimate. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.120 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:38.559 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well, superstar cities apparently not all 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.000 that they're cracked up to be, especially for blackmail college graduates. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.319 This is uh the results of a new study from 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.560 m I. T. Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Let's talk about 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.960 that study and his story in business Week Bloomberg business 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.360 Week Economics. That are Peter Coy joining us right now 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.840 on the phone in New Jersey. Um, Peter, tell us 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.400 about this. Tell us about the study and what they 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.959 found out. A study called the Faltering Escalator of Urban 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.120 Opportunities by David auto Or, a prominent economists m I. T. 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.920 Who I really love. He does such excellent work. This 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.240 is part of a task force that he co chares 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.760 called the task Force and the Work of the Future. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.400 So the conventional wisdom is that cities are good places 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.800 for opportunity because there are things, there are kinds of 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.800 jobs that are available in cities that simply aren't available 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.960 in suburbs or rural areas. And for one while that 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.319 was true, if you move to the city, you were 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.480 likely to get a better job, earn more money, and 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.040 be on an escalator towards higher pay um. But what 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.480 he's found is that is going back as far as 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.520 that started to become less twoe, and it's become less 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.640 and less true as time has gone by, and uh 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.760 so there's more of a barbell now. There are some 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:58.400 great jobs for upper income people, and there are some 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.920 plentiful jobs for people at the bottom, whether they are 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:07.400 security guards or the food preparation types. Uh, you know, 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.520 service jobs like that, but it's kind of a middle 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.520 paying job. There are far fewer of them than they 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.320 were in past decades. Well, also with us is Business 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.760 Week editor Joel Wepper joining us from Massachusetts. So Joel 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.400 put this story in context. I mean, we love a 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.880 good Peter Koy story. I know you're never want to 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.320 turn it down to either, but framed this for us 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.880 in in the sort of broader uh theme of the 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.160 magazine and what you're trying to do UM. Funny enough, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.000 it relates to a conversation Peter and I were actually 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.320 just having kind of earlier in the day, and I 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.360 think it helps inform some of UM coverage that you'll 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.000 probably continue to be seeing from us, because you know, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.000 cities have really been this um, this engine of economic activity, 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.559 and that is has been true for you know, us 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.199 being sort of in New York City properly most of 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.079 the time and in the before times. UM, But you 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.400 do you think about it at large, especially for the 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.480 American economy, that has been the story of UM sort 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.560 of the the economic in gine of America has been 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:14.400 sort of like the movement towards cities, the economic activity 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.320 that they survived, that they provide. And now that the 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.040 pandemic UM, as Peter kind of said, it actually is 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:25.120 almost sort of like excellent accelerated some trends and some 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.560 of those were pre existing trends and others were were 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.640 things that were sort of unexpected UM. And I think 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.440 it puts the burden on cities in a in a 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.319 way that UM it doesn't for a lot of other 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.640 economic models. And I think that that is going to 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.200 be UM just an ongoing conversation of like, you know, 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.360 you take New York City for instance. As Peter and 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.920 I were talking about earlier, it was like, so what 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:51.839 does this mean for the m t A Right like 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.600 in d A, all of these things that the city, 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.080 the city needs people in order to fuel the city itself, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:00.880 And the moment that you sort of remove the people 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.319 from that equation, it starts to actually become somewhat of 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.920 the downward spiral. So what does that mean, Peter, I mean, 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.720 like play this out for us, you know, based on 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.040 the folks you talk to and your own research and expertise. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.720 I mean, we're talking about, as Joel just mentioned, basic infrastructure. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.600 I mean, just sort of the way that cities live 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:28.200 and breathe and grow and uh and operate. Yeah. Well, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.560 New York City is unique in the United States and 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.360 its density, particularly in Manhattan, it's not the norm for 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.560 U S cities. You hear a lot of people talking 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.360 about edge cities, which are far less dense and in 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.440 some ways more sustainable. Problem with like New York is 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:49.000 that the subway needs a lot of riders to you know, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.320 to pay a budget. You take away all the writers 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.720 and you still run the trains and you're running massive deficits. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.680 That's just unsustainable. So you can't get away with less 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.720 density in New York. But I just want quickly go 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.840 back to the topic of mail um college grads, which 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.640 Carol mentioned in their intro, is that that's a special 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:13.880 problem because in general, the middle paying jobs were held 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.920 by people maybe without college degrees. Uh, And so it 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.920 was the people without college degrees in general who suffered 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.360 the most from this hollowing out, but for black male 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:31.960 college grads they have been dragged down as well. And 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.640 that was one of the big surprises for all Tour 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:39.480 in his research, that they their share of middle paying 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.600 jobs went down and their share of low paying jobs 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:48.520 went up from so they said, compounding all the other 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.320 problems we've been talking about. Well, and it's interesting, you know, Peter, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.920 as you right, I mean, it's not We've often talked 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.480 about just these cities becoming unaffordable for so many but 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.560 as you point out, and the research shows, you know 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.720 that middle paying occupations are even lower. I mean, these 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.160 are jobs that are going away and not being replaced, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.960 and so there isn't even that demand for those kinds 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.240 of workers. Yeah, right, I mean, the theory that cities 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.880 are magnets are escalators of opportunity leads you to believe, well, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.560 if only we could deal with the cost cost of housing, 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.880 for example, then we'd really solve our problems. But what 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.880 Autour is saying is even that wouldn't really do it, 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.600 because it's it's not just that people can't afford to 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.040 work there, it's just that they show up there. And 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:42.960 there's nothing for them to do. Mhm. So, Peter, um, 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.040 if you think about sort of what what position this 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.040 really puts cities in in sort of the medium to 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.040 long term? You know, what do you what do you 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:55.760 Bringing this back to part of the conversation we had, 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.520 which is if you if you think about, um, what 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.040 what what does this mean for this thing that's been 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.879 you know, this center of economic activity? Like what do 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:06.960 you what do you think the future of city starts 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.760 to look like? I think the problem now, let's bring 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.840 it back to COVID and the recession is that this 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.840 Autra's research goes between fifteen before that happened, but that 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.840 actually this actually exacerbates the problem because uh, cities, in 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.640 his research, we're still magnets for you know, the highly skilled, 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.560 highly compensated people in finance, for example, a lot of 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.199 people probably listening to this radio program right now. But 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.960 if they're finding that they can live at home in Westchester, NASA, 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.719 Suffolk Berg and whatever, then they might do it, and 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.520 then there's even less reason to live and work in 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.720 the city, and that worsens the city's finances, and that 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.200 also hurts the people at the bottom because those people 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.280 at the bottom are basically serving the people at the top. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.280 So the whole economic model just kind of dissolved. It's 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.800 a really really interesting story. Uh. We always come on you, Peter, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.760 for finding these ideas that you twist the prism just 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.199 a little bit and and find something that's extraordinary use 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.560 extraordinarily useful. Easy for me to say, Peter Koy, thank 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.400 you so much, economics editor for Bloomberg Business Week, along 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.160 with Joe Webber, the editor of the magazine. You are 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.760 listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Jason Kelly and Carol Master 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.960 here with you on a Wednesday. That's right, I got 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.680 it right this time. It's a Wednesday. Emily Jason back 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:35.520 with a sustainability editor for Bloomberg. Green, by the way 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.320 it is. I know it all sort of comes together. 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.639 I just need these markers, Carol to let me know 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.359 where I am, because I'm staring out at the exact 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.919 same backyard that I've been staring at for seventeen weeks. 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.760 It's lovely, it's it's green, and it's green, little cloudie 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:54.000 and rainy here on Westchester. Emily Jason is here with us, So, Emily, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.960 a lot going on in the world of green including 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.760 a big conversation that you had. Tell us about it. Oh, so, 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:07.760 I guess which conversation, Al Gore. I'm sorry you have 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.520 so many big conversations. I have to be more specific, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:17.080 Al Gore, tell us about them. See which official was 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.200 I talking to? So tell us about the conversation. We 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.959 have a conversation this week about you know, how does 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.320 some sort of a once in a generational opportunity to 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.920 rebuild and rethink everything that we're working within our economy UM. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.680 And he needs some really good points about what needs 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:34.920 to happen to reset and how people are thinking about 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.680 science UM, and listening to scientists, which is something he's 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.240 been trying to say for a long time on climate change. 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.760 And here we are, you know, needing to listen to 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.479 scientists in coronavirus and um, what can we learn from 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.640 that about the future And what can you rethink about 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.000 society because we're making changes really fast right now um 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.959 and building a more equal, more environmentally friendly future. So 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.800 he is positive going forward. He thinks we get to 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:06.639 a better place. He's very optimistic, for sure. There's a 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.920 lot of changes that he thought had accelerated, like using 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.560 more telehealth, more distributed work um, where the need for 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.439 jobs dovetails with the needs to recorfit building. So that 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.480 was sort of our conversation. And I mean, this is 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.679 a guy. I mean, and you've written a lot about 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.719 the former vice president over the years, Emily, and I 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:34.199 do you know, sort of wonder about this moment and 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.280 how he sees it as you've just described, because he's 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.560 sort of been waiting a long time for everybody to 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.879 kind of get on board, and and I wonder if 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:49.040 if this time sort of feels different to some extent. Yeah, 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.320 I would say that, you know, it's interesting from his 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.080 perspective that he's been doing this a long time and 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.520 building these long term views, and the moment like this says, hey, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.720 we can actually accelerate and speed things up. Um. And 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.280 so looking at different trends, we talked a lot about 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:12.359 fundamental changes and consumer and social behavior, um, about just 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:16.680 ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and also about stimulus, right, 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.040 and that the role of government and making this happen. Yeah, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.400 it's it's just interesting and we'll see ultimately what happens. 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.000 I feel like this has been a big week for 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.160 the green environment. I think about all of the rulings 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.679 when it comes to pipeline, some of the big pipelines, 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:34.280 And we just had we had one as we kicked 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:38.520 off our show about energy transfer on the Dakota Access pipeline. UM, 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:40.920 they're like, oh, you know you ruled that. No, we're good, 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.159 We're good. We're gonna keep going with I didn't see it. 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.760 I didn't see it. I'll say sorry later. UM, talk 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:48.600 to us about some of the headlines that are coming 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.320 across your desk right now that you're writing about. Yeah, 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.200 it was a really bad week to be a pipeline 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.800