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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five,

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Speaker 1: or she.

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Speaker 2: Had us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, trust Me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you,

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Speaker 3: and we never have a.

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Speaker 2: Live about it.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me the podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two formerly indoctrinated people

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Speaker 1: who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: This week our guest is Rachel Bernstein. She is a therapist,

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Speaker 1: cult specialist and the host of fellow cult podcast Indoctrination.

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Speaker 1: Excellent podcast from more academic perspective. Check it out. So

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about what healing looks like

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Speaker 1: after coming out of a cult, what the common themes

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Speaker 1: she sees are in recovery from manipulation, and what the

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Speaker 1: signs are that someone might be in a high control

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Speaker 1: group or manipulative reallylationship.

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Speaker 2: Will also touch on dissociation as a trauma response, advice

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Speaker 2: for anyone who's loved one might be in a cult,

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Speaker 2: and what it's like for her dealing with survivor stories

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Speaker 2: every day. That would be tough.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed, okay, there's so much information here. She's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Before we talk to her, though, I have to know

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Speaker 1: what is the coltiest thing that's happened to you this week? Megan?

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, Okay, Well, the coltiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 2: me this week was caused by me.

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Speaker 1: But the first time this has.

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Speaker 2: Happened on the podcast, I'm excited about that. So basically

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Speaker 2: we had Rachel on the podcast. She was so informative,

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Speaker 2: that's this episode that you're listening to now. And she

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Speaker 2: told me, Hey, I have a group for cult survivors

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Speaker 2: that goes on tonight. You know you can join it.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, I need this more than anyone

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Speaker 2: has ever needed anything on the face of the earth.

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Speaker 2: I cannot fucking wait. And then I just found myself

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Speaker 2: running the dumbest errand and looking at the time and

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Speaker 2: being like I just missed the group. I think my

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Speaker 2: unconscious is trying to keep me in the cult.

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Speaker 1: Of me or just keep you out of the cult

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Speaker 1: of recovering fight your childhood. Wow, I mean, I was.

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Speaker 2: Just stuck in traffic on sunset for no fucking reason,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, what time is it? I hope I'm

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Speaker 2: in time for the group, and it's like, nope, the

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Speaker 2: group started ten minutes ago. You weirdo. Why'd you do that?

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Speaker 1: In fairness, you probably could have joined from the car,

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Speaker 1: considering it's on zoom.

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Speaker 2: So what would you would you have joined ten minutes

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Speaker 2: late because I felt a little too shy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. If I had gone previously it like

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Speaker 1: wasn't new to it, then I would. But otherwise I

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Speaker 1: would maybe feel like I wouldn't want to disrespect eat anyone. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's fair.

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Speaker 2: That's fair. When I'm the new person anyway, even if

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Speaker 2: I'm doing normal things and on time, I'm so nervous

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Speaker 2: that I'm just like falling over everything. And yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: not good. So didn't go. Plan on going in two weeks.

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Speaker 2: I'll let you guys know how it is. And and uh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I can't wait for this resource. What about you? What's

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Speaker 2: the cultiest thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait to hear about you joining Rachel's

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Speaker 1: ex cult member cult. Now it's not a cult either. Uh.

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Speaker 1: What happened to me this week was, oh, well, I

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Speaker 1: think that you and I both watched this series on HB.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait was it HBO? Yeah, HBO, which we talked

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Speaker 1: about on another podcast this week called Good Christian fun

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Speaker 1: hilarious people. You guys really checked their podcast out. They're

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Speaker 1: so fucking funny.

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Speaker 2: I never in my life last I know.

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Speaker 1: But what we discussed was this mini docu series on

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Speaker 1: HBO called The Way Down, which my head is convinced

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Speaker 1: that that's a movie starring Ben Affleck, But that's the

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Speaker 1: Way Back, The Way Down on HBO, and my friend

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Reidon is in it. Shout out. The Way Down

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Speaker 1: on HBO, though, is about this woman Gwen what was

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Speaker 1: her last name.

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Speaker 2: It's something that's ironic because it sounds like something she is.

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Speaker 1: Gwenn Shamblin. Yes, yeah, she's a sham It's called The

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Speaker 1: Way Down and the Cult of Gwen Champlain. So this woman, y'all,

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Speaker 1: is fascinating. She has the highest, tallest hair I've ever

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Speaker 1: seen in my entire fucking life, and her whole thing

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Speaker 1: was that she was peddling this like weight loss program

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Speaker 1: and the basic premise of her religion was that you

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Speaker 1: can turn to God instead of overeating, and God will

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Speaker 1: make you skinny, and to be skinny is basically to

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Speaker 1: be virtuous. This was like eighties nineties peak like anorexia

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Speaker 1: in the culture, you know, when no one valued butts

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Speaker 1: yet and we highly valued butts as a society now

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Speaker 1: think although we still insist on everyone having tiny, unrealistically

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Speaker 1: small waists. But so she would teach this like basic

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Speaker 1: idea of like stop eating when you're full, but she

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Speaker 1: touted it as this like godly religious new idea where

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Speaker 1: you know, she'd come up with this thing and if

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Speaker 1: you just think about God when you're hungry or when

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Speaker 1: you want to keep eating, he will bless you or something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you wanna Am I saying this right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you are. Unfortunately that's the gist.

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Speaker 1: He'll bless you with skinniness. Yeah. And then of course

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Speaker 1: women would like what's it called when you like when

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Speaker 1: you don't maintain the weight loss a regainer, a yo

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Speaker 1: yo diet anyway, when the women often inevitably would gain

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Speaker 1: some of the weight back because they're trying all these

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Speaker 1: like crazy diets or whatever. Then they would be considered

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Speaker 1: like they would basically be shamed because there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: with them, because they must not be righteous enough because

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Speaker 1: they regain their weight. Anyway, it's absolutely horrible, so many

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Speaker 1: bad stories in it, and I guess I won't spoil

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Speaker 1: anything else, but I recommend you watch it.

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Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite documentaries I've ever seen. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure why, but I really really really loved it.

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Speaker 2: She is just bizarre, and my cultiest thing of the

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Speaker 2: week was going to be just Halloween in general kind

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Speaker 2: of triggering like weight stuff I think for people because

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Speaker 2: you wear your costume, and I just saw a lot

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Speaker 2: of people lately being like, how do you live an engine? Bloon?

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Speaker 2: I don't know anyway, body stuff is you know out there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the body fixation stuff is real. Sad, Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: sad that we put this pressure on people. Not sad

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Speaker 1: that people are fixed. Of course. Of course, we're all

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Speaker 1: obsessed with our appearance. That's the culture that we live,

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Speaker 1: and that tells us that that's what we should value

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Speaker 1: about ourselves. Yeah, anyway, check it out. There's some heartbreaking

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Speaker 1: stuff in there, as well, and gosh, I just keep

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Speaker 1: making recommendations. I've made like three recommendations in the span

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Speaker 1: of seven minutes. I hope you're writing this all down,

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Speaker 1: you guys, yeah, because you can't rewind the well has

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Speaker 1: got the res all right? I mean, is that all

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Speaker 1: we have to say about Gwen Chamblain. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, oh, I just I was gonna say.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the reason it's one of your favorite cult docs

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Speaker 1: is because it's the combination of like female cult leader,

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Speaker 1: which we just don't have enough good cult docks about that,

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Speaker 1: and this like obsessive nineties like weight loss moment and

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Speaker 1: that's very morbid. And then also cults. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: just so many, you know, and sorry, and like the

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Speaker 1: and also the like conservative event, evangelical, you know, Middle

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Speaker 1: America Christian culture thing. It's like a combination of all

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Speaker 1: these things and wrapped into one, oh one spicy nugget

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Speaker 1: yum yum, yumm. Okay, that's it. I'm done, I'm done rambling. Fine, Okay,

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Speaker 1: shall we? Megan? You're just I'm so sorry. Are you

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Speaker 1: on the floor? Megan is just rolling around on the

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Speaker 1: floor as I'm trying to have a serious conversation like

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Speaker 1: a fucking baby.

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Speaker 2: It's so hot in here. I'm just trying to Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm here. You guys are gonna love this interview.

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Speaker 1: Good contribution, Megan. Okay, let's get into it now. Welcome

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Speaker 1: Rachel Bernstein to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming. So you are a therapist, and you

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Speaker 1: are also a cult specialist in particular. Can you please

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your background and how

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Speaker 1: cult intervention and reacclamation, as it says in your website,

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Speaker 1: became a specialty for you.

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Speaker 3: That sounds so fancy on my.

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Speaker 2: Website, So right.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting. You know, sometimes things in a random way

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Speaker 3: that happened to us guide us and kind of lead

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Speaker 3: us through a certain way in our lives. And it's

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Speaker 3: been very interesting to see where this has taken me.

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Speaker 3: But I had a family member or sibling who got

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Speaker 3: involved in a cult when I was growing up. She's

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Speaker 3: older than I am, and so it became kind of

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Speaker 3: dinner table conversation about what happened to her this sudden

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Speaker 3: personality change, and suddenly all the money was gone out

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Speaker 3: of her bank account from summer jobs and everything. She

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Speaker 3: just gave it over to a different organization and became

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Speaker 3: very secretive and had another language she was using in

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Speaker 3: another way she was looking and dressing me, and just

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Speaker 3: seeing how quickly it happened, and also how at the

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Speaker 3: time we couldn't get information. There weren't books really about cults.

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Speaker 3: There were books that were written by cult leaders, so

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Speaker 3: I wasn't going.

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Speaker 2: To be helpful, not helpful.

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Speaker 3: So with few resources at the time, I remember thinking

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Speaker 3: I was going to go into education, which I did,

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Speaker 3: and then when I got a master's, I went into

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Speaker 3: studying counseling and suddenly thought, you know, I do want

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Speaker 3: to become a licensed marriage and family therapist. I like

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Speaker 3: relational kind of counseling, but I also wanted to make

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Speaker 3: myself available to do this work, just because there were

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Speaker 3: so few resources for our family. So I just decided

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Speaker 3: to do a lot of reading and go to conferences

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Speaker 3: and talk to former members and other people who were

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Speaker 3: specialists in this area, and then became a resource and

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Speaker 3: then became known for this.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask what group, or at least like, what

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Speaker 1: kind of group your sibling joined?

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was scientology out Yeah, so I think that's

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Speaker 3: in part I mean you know. And my first client,

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Speaker 3: actually when I sort of let people know I was

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Speaker 3: doing this, was a former scientologist who had climbed out

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Speaker 3: a window, who was on the RPF, the Rehabilitation Project Force,

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Speaker 3: and climbed out a window to come to see a therapist,

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Speaker 3: which was verbotan, you know. And then when she climbed

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Speaker 3: back in the window after asking me if I was

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Speaker 3: going to put electrodes on her head and if I

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Speaker 3: was going to hold her against her will, and I

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Speaker 3: was thinking, oh no, my god, because people are made

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Speaker 3: to be terrified of counseling outside of the group so

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Speaker 3: that they really don't have resources outside to help them.

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Speaker 3: Then she let people will know there that she had.

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Speaker 3: They grilled her, and someone saw her climbing back in

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Speaker 3: the window, and they grilled her until she finally told

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Speaker 3: who she had gone to see. And then I became

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Speaker 3: an enemy to them, and I that's when the harassment

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Speaker 3: of me started, really like the ink was drawing on

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Speaker 3: my license and I was already getting harassed by Scientology.

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Speaker 3: So I earned early stripes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your popular badge of honor.

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Speaker 3: It was life.

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Speaker 1: I forgot to mention a very key detail about you,

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Speaker 1: which is that you yourself host a cult podcast called Indoctrination.

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Speaker 1: But from the perspective of somebody you know who is

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Speaker 1: a mental health professional, you're a lot more professional about

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Speaker 1: it than we are. Yes, but it's a fantastic podcast.

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Speaker 1: Highly recommend it. So that will also factor into some

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Speaker 1: of our questions here, just because you deal with this

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Speaker 1: not only as a therapist but as your other job

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Speaker 1: as a podcast host. So you are like so immersed

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Speaker 1: in this world, so a true expert. Folks, we have

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Speaker 1: a true expert on our hands. Well, scientology in particular,

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Speaker 1: I'm always so curious about, you know, because they're anti

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Speaker 1: psychiatry and whatever. But then they sort of hijack al

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Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard like took pieces of psychology right and like

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Speaker 1: refurbished them and made them into his own thing when

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Speaker 1: like hijacked them. And I've noticed there have been people

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Speaker 1: in my own life who seem resistant to getting help

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Speaker 1: for anything because they were in scientology and they believe

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Speaker 1: that they processed it or I forgot what the term is,

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Speaker 1: but like they did the thing, and they're like, there, no,

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Speaker 1: I dealt with that already.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They're like, Nope, that's already been dealt with. And so

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Speaker 1: there's still this resistance in them. Can you just tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about like psychology versus scientology and

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Speaker 1: what you've kind of noticed there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very interesting. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who I work with. I think a predominant number

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Speaker 3: of them are former scientologists. And that's why scientology doesn't

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Speaker 3: really like me. And it's interesting because they see me

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Speaker 3: as an enemy. And all I'm doing is I'm saying, listen,

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Speaker 3: if you've had some trouble with this, and maybe I

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Speaker 3: can help you. So that's not really being an enemy,

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Speaker 3: except that there are some people who might decide to

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Speaker 3: not go back once they see that there are resources

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Speaker 3: for them emotionally outside or people who are actually wanting

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Speaker 3: to help them and not just have them, you know,

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Speaker 3: do more of what they call auditing in scientology and

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Speaker 3: do you know hold an e meter like the cans

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Speaker 3: you've seen in pictures. And so, yes, Alan Hubbard did.

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Speaker 3: We've in some parts of psychology into Dianetics and other

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Speaker 3: of his teachings and books, but then made a full

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Speaker 3: departure in so many ways to his kind of land

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Speaker 3: of counseling whatever whatever that looks like. And it really

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Speaker 3: is sort of having people who you know, they said

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Speaker 3: to me, they were told that they couldn't really leave

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Speaker 3: the auditing session until they remembered their life on a planet,

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Speaker 3: you know, a billion years ago and what they were

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Speaker 3: wearing and eating and wow, So is that really going

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Speaker 3: to help you in your marriage?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So there are a lot of help you lie better,

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Speaker 2: It's kind of true, right.

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Speaker 3: But you know what people don't know, and this is

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Speaker 3: not this is not suable information because it's publicly known.

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Speaker 3: But you know that Ellern Hubbard was dishonorably discharged from

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Speaker 3: the Navy for having psychiatric issues, really putting his troops

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Speaker 3: in harm's way, being combative, et cetera, et cetera, among

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Speaker 3: other peers. So because there's a record, an official record

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Speaker 3: of him having been diagnosed by psychiatrists connected with the Navy,

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Speaker 3: because he couldn't get those records expunged, then he could

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Speaker 3: do the next best thing, which is to defame the

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Speaker 3: source of the information real, right, So that's his whole

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Speaker 3: psychiatry kills thing as a whole thing in LA and Hollywood,

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Speaker 3: a whole exhibit, right, Because if you can defame the source,

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Speaker 3: then people don't listen to the information as much. So

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Speaker 3: that was the avenue he took, which is clever. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: people understand the source of it. I think it helps

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Speaker 3: people understand where it comes from.

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Speaker 1: Right, That is interesting.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: And do you find that there's a resistance in your

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Speaker 1: clients or patients or whatever to psychology even when they

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Speaker 1: like are trying to get help.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so with scientologists specifically, and with other people too,

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Speaker 3: who were told that going for counseling meant that you

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Speaker 3: weren't a true believer anymore, that if you said a

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Speaker 3: certain prayer. It's like people who were raised as Christian scientists,

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Speaker 3: you know, going to a doctor means that you're no

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Speaker 3: longer a believer that prayer is going to heal you.

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Speaker 3: So are you willing to make that kind of statement

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Speaker 3: right and willing to make that kind of departure and

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Speaker 3: be looked down upon as being somehow less than or

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Speaker 3: a week? So a lot of former science cologists will

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Speaker 3: consider it a weakness to go for counseling because somehow

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Speaker 3: the teachings that they got, the things they learned, are

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Speaker 3: not enough to sustain them. And what does that mean

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Speaker 3: about them? Most culture groups will have the attention come

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Speaker 3: back onto you as you failing in some way, not

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Speaker 3: the group failing you. People are very critical of themselves

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Speaker 3: right and think that they should be able to handle it.

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Speaker 3: But there's no way for a person, I think, who's

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Speaker 3: been through so much to make it on their own

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Speaker 3: without support, right right.

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Speaker 1: So, in your experience with people who are coming out

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Speaker 1: of culture groups or high control situations, I just kind

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Speaker 1: of curious about the trajectory of healing, Like, what is

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Speaker 1: the thing that they might need help with first? Is

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Speaker 1: there Like have you noticed commonalities in like stages that

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Speaker 1: people go through or just can you talk about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely so. I think that one of the things

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Speaker 3: that I like to be able to do right away

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Speaker 3: is to help people feel that they're not doing anything

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Speaker 3: wrong by talking about what happened in the group. There

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Speaker 3: is this need very often for people to keep the

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Speaker 3: secrets of the group, to keep what's happened behind closed

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Speaker 3: doors behind closed doors. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who are told that something bad will happen to them,

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Speaker 3: or God will know, or whatever the philosophy or theology

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Speaker 3: of the group is, and they'll be punished for talking.

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Speaker 3: And if that doesn't work to control people, sometimes they're

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Speaker 3: told something bad will happen to the person who hears

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Speaker 3: the story. And so I've had a lot of clients

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Speaker 3: actually ask me to call them when I got home

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Speaker 3: safely after work to make sure I was okay. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's so sad, like to think

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Speaker 3: about how much people have been made scared, but also

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Speaker 3: that people are afraid that their stories are sort of

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Speaker 3: terminally unique and more extreme, or that they're not going

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Speaker 3: to be believed. So just helping them talk about it.

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Speaker 3: I do a lot of talking about talking how do

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Speaker 3: you talk about it, how do you trust? How do

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Speaker 3: you share your story? And also do it in a

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Speaker 3: way that doesn't just blame you because you're so used

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Speaker 3: to being the one who's blamed. That woven into people

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Speaker 3: telling their story, they're very often talking about well I

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Speaker 3: should have known better, or I guess you know, if

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Speaker 3: I tried harder, I would have been happier. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of that putting people down that I need to

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Speaker 3: help people be mindful of that. So that's the first piece,

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Speaker 3: just the talking, and then cult education, helping people understand

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Speaker 3: what they were involved in, because you know, just because

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Speaker 3: you've been through it doesn't mean you understand what happened

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Speaker 3: to you, and it doesn't mean you know the names

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Speaker 3: of the techniques and the manipulations. And so it helps

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Speaker 3: if somebody tells about something that's happened to them and

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Speaker 3: it takes an hour to explain it, and I can say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's mystical manipulation, right, like, Okay, now I have a

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Speaker 3: term that really kind of speeds things along. And now

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Speaker 3: I understand too that that was a method used on me,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. And

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Speaker 3: then the next part is helping people get connected and

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Speaker 3: connected to others, to the people who they may have

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Speaker 3: said goodbye to or were cruel to, or to the

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Speaker 3: family where they didn't go to the person's funeral because

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Speaker 3: it wasn't important. You know, how do they reconnect or

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Speaker 3: connect for the first time if they were born and

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Speaker 3: raised in a group. And that's why I run this

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Speaker 3: former call member support group. That's why I'm involved in

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Speaker 3: conferences because it's very powerful for people to meet each

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Speaker 3: other and not feel isolated. So I think just talking

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Speaker 3: about talking understanding about cults, coercion, manipulation, what happened to you,

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Speaker 3: and then connecting with others who have had similar experiences.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of a three part trajectory that's helpful.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: Do you find that it's hard for people to kind

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Speaker 2: of like Stockholm syndrome if their family's still in it

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Speaker 2: like guilt? You know, because if somebody's like, well, that

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Speaker 2: your parents really did something bad, I'm like, no, they didn't.

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Speaker 2: Is that common that people act that way?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean people if your family's still in it,

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Speaker 3: or if you somehow feel like it's wrong of you

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Speaker 3: to be angry at even the person who was in charge,

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Speaker 3: for the person who started it, and you are instead

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Speaker 3: because you've been trained, you're instead supposed to feel indebted

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Speaker 3: to that person who's provided you with the pure whatever

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Speaker 3: or the only route towards or however they presented it,

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Speaker 3: or that you were specially chosen to be a part

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Speaker 3: of that, so you feel like it's wrong of you

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Speaker 3: to be upset. So, yes, there's a lot of Stockholm syndrome,

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Speaker 3: and so I mean, I think that's a sensitive question.

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Speaker 3: That's a really knowledgeable question, like you've experienced it, and

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Speaker 3: to give people permission to look at things in kind

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Speaker 3: of a non cultic way, meaning not black and white,

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Speaker 3: that you can miss someone who you're still angry with

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Speaker 3: and write or you feel betrayed by, or the parent

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Speaker 3: who brought you in. You can still love them and

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Speaker 3: miss them and want to have a relationship with them,

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Speaker 3: want them to hear you and understand what you've been through,

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Speaker 3: but you're not ready to say goodbye, nor do you

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Speaker 3: want to have to. So it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: so black and white like within cultic thinking, like either

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Speaker 3: you have a relationship with someone or you don't, or

400
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Speaker 3: someone's all evil or someone's all good. And to find

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Speaker 3: the gray even in relationships and to make it all okay.

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Speaker 3: I think it's important.

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Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really cool. You mentioned that there are names

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Speaker 1: of techniques and manipulations. You mentioned mystical manipulation, which is

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Speaker 1: one of the types of manipulation I'm most fascinated with.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about what that is and what some

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Speaker 1: other techniques are?

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Speaker 3: Right, So, there are a lot of techniques that people

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Speaker 3: can learn about through Robert J. Liften if you study

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Speaker 3: about his techniques of control coercion, Margaret Singer, who is

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Speaker 3: a professor at Berkeley who studied also manipulation and cults,

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Speaker 3: and even Robert Chialdini, who wrote a book called Influence

414
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Speaker 3: and talks about influence actually from a business model, but

415
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Speaker 3: has spoken at cult conferences because it's all applied in cults,

416
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Speaker 3: So like why we buy what we buy and why

417
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Speaker 3: we believe you know that certain people are wonderful and

418
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Speaker 3: how they get that across to us and convince us,

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Speaker 3: and it can be in the media but also can

420
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Speaker 3: be used in a cult. All of it is interesting.

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Speaker 3: It helps people understand what works and why it works.

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Speaker 3: So mystical manipulation is a very difficult thing to combat

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Speaker 3: because it's the thing that people feel they can't argue

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Speaker 3: about because if you really think that this is God's

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Speaker 3: will or whatever the philosophy is, whatever the theology is,

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Speaker 3: that then you can't argue with the person who is

427
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Speaker 3: quoting God or Buddha, because then you're doing something that's

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Speaker 3: awful and punishable. And so then whatever that person says

429
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Speaker 3: to you, you think you have to listen to or

430
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Speaker 3: you think that person is right, and so you don't

431
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Speaker 3: question some of the things that they tell you to do,

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Speaker 3: and some of the things that they tell you are true,

433
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Speaker 3: quote unquote about you. And so then a lot of

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Speaker 3: people will say you know, I stayed in a group

435
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: for way longer than I wanted to, and I was

436
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: miserable for a long time. But I really believed that

437
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: that is where salvation was, Like they had convinced me

438
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: it existed nowhere else. And so that's mystical manipulation. Then

439
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 3: that's part of it and makes people stay for fear

440
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: that they believe that there is no other place for

441
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: them to go where they're going to be safe or

442
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: they're going to be saved. And so I think, you know,

443
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people who really do believe

444
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 3: that they speak for something a greater power, and others

445
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 3: who use that because they know that people won't say

446
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: no to them if they say, oh, I'm not saying

447
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 3: that that's you know, from the ascended masters, or that's

448
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 3: from God, and they love knowing that people then won't argue, right.

449
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: So I often give the example of Jim Jones, you know,

450
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: having a person basically be in a wheelchair and then

451
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: act as though they were healed and suddenly start walking again.

452
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: These sort of like feigned miracles or like generated spiritual experiences.

453
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: Does that fall under that category as well. I'm really

454
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: interested in this thing that happens where we're like, no,

455
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: I truly had a spiritual experience. I witnessed the miracle,

456
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, But it's kind of all just forgery.

457
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: Right, So it's both and kind of situation. So yes,

458
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 3: there are people who will say I really did have

459
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 3: a mystical experience. I mean there are some groups, even

460
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 3: one on one kind of cults, but it happens more

461
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: often in larger groups where there's the kind of social

462
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 3: contagion that happens around you. So you notice other people

463
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: speaking in tongues, so you start speaking in tongues because

464
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 3: you think that's what you're supposed to be doing. But

465
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: you're kind of making it up as you go along.

466
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 3: But you're afraid how people are going to see you

467
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 3: or what they're going to call you if you're not

468
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: doing it too. But groups are very good at creating fervor,

469
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: at creating an intensity, and so people will abandon a

470
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 3: lot of critical thinking if they are connected to that

471
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 3: fervor because it's like a drug and they love that,

472
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: and a lot of people will do things that might

473
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: feel superhuman during that time. I mean, I think about

474
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: as a total aside. It was when I was young.

475
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: I remember we had a beloved dog who ended up

476
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 3: being fine. This has a happening. But there was a

477
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: person who backed up and had his tire on his

478
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: car over my dog by on his body, and my dad.

479
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: I remember my dad went over and looked at the

480
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: back of the car. Wow, I thought, Okay, so I'm

481
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: sure that if he just if someone said can you

482
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: a lift that car? No, But because there was this

483
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: moment of panic of I have to do something, you

484
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: can develop sort of parts of you that feel superhuman.

485
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: And a lot of people will say I had this

486
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 3: transcendent moment or I saw things, or I was able

487
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: to do things that I couldn't do before, and that

488
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: feeling can be cultivated through that adrenaline. And so that

489
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 3: adrenaline certainly is kicked up a notch, a lot of notches.

490
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: But yes, there are also people who are faking it,

491
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: who are not in a wheelchair, but will enter the

492
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 3: room in a wheelchair. There are people also who was

493
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: It was very interesting. It was like a sting operation

494
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: for a televangelist years ago where fun Yeah, I know,

495
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: it was very interesting where he did all these healings

496
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 3: so people were suddenly able to walk again. It was

497
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: like lords, you know, like holy water. And the reason

498
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: there was a sting operation was for good reason because

499
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: he was encouraging people to go off their medication oh no,

500
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: which was horrible. And then, as it is in cults,

501
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 3: if you don't get cured, that's on you, praying hard

502
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: enough for feeling it in your bones or whatever, so

503
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: it's always on you. But he had all these people

504
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 3: posted in different parts of the stadium where he had

505
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: these services, and he was talking to them, and he

506
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 3: had people planted in the audience to not be standing

507
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: up because they said they were not able to stand

508
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: and be there on crutches, and suddenly they were able

509
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: to stand. And so the sting operation was that they

510
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: had a listening device where they could actually hear him.

511
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: Then speaking to the different people in the crowd, saying

512
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 3: you're you're up, or you're on the camera would go

513
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: right to them. So this was to cultivate that magical,

514
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 3: that mystical manipulation, and it was totally cultivate.

515
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: All right, get it?

516
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: I actually I don't get it. Megan have a really.

517
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 2: Good example of this, which is a Tony Robbins conference

518
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: I went to, not to brag, where he had us

519
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: all like screaming a word as a big, massive people

520
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: and then made us march outside and walk over hot coals,

521
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: which was just absurd, and like some people actually got burnt,

522
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: but people who were able to kind of stay in

523
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 2: the state didn't. So that was interesting and and just

524
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: more to that point, I've had conversations with people before

525
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: where they're just like, I know, the two by two's

526
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: what what I grew up in. Like, I know that

527
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: was real because that feeling I got singing out the

528
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: hems and the stars, and I'm like, but have you

529
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: ever been to a concert? It's a my experience, so

530
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, just to speak to both of those things.

531
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely right, have you ever been to a concert?

532
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: It's exactly the same. If you can approach things or

533
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: you can set up something in a multi sensory way. Also,

534
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: you really get people to have that sense of fervor,

535
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: like the lighting and the music and everyone, you know,

536
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 3: stomping their feet or clapping their hands or cheering. It

537
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: makes your heart race and you think that what you're

538
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: doing is really transcendent. But also with Tony Robbins and

539
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: other groups like it, they are really putting people in

540
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: harm's way, and then you're blamed if your feet got burned.

541
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: But it's also true that some people are going to

542
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: walk faster than others. Some people have you know, harder

543
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 3: heels and skin on our feet and are used to

544
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: walking barefoot, so they have more of a cushion that

545
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: they've developed. But also there's some people who are hypnotizable, yes,

546
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: and some people aren't, and all across the board in between,

547
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: every variation in between. So there are some people who

548
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: will say I was able to do this and put

549
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: my mind somewhere else, and other people who just can't.

550
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: But the ones who can't are told there's something wrong

551
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: with them, when really that's just a natural variation of

552
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 3: a human mind.

553
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: Mmmm. Well, that's such a good point. I feel like

554
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: I could ask you about that forever. But because you

555
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: treat people, I'm interested in that side of your experience.

556
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: Where do I even begin? So, I mean, I know

557
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: that this is kind of a dumb question and there

558
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: isn't one answer, but I feel like people listening might

559
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: wonder how long does healing take? What kind of process

560
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: is it? If someone is embarking on this journey.

561
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so I wish I could say you know, it

562
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: was like forty seven days and you're fine. But it's

563
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: different for everyone, and for some people it can take years.

564
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: And to be patient about that because what happens within

565
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: a few years is that you sometimes need some time

566
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: just to land, just to kind of breathe, just to

567
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: be okay with actually sleeping through the night, because usually

568
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: in cultic groups you're supposed to be busy all the time,

569
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: and just to learn how to take care of the self,

570
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: and then to feel worthy of getting therapy, because that

571
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: takes a certain amount of also hopefulness that with something

572
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: like that, maybe your life will get better. And there's

573
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: some people who don't get there. They just stay depressed

574
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: or anxious and it's kind of sad. So just getting

575
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: to the point where you're ready for therapy or feel

576
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: worthy of it or having a happy life, that takes

577
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: some time. Then I think it's important to go through

578
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: the anniversaries the year that you're out, like the holidays

579
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: that you spent in the group and what they were like,

580
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: and how you've done it differently outside of the group,

581
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: how your birthday is suddenly being celebrated when it wasn't

582
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: allowed to be before. Just going through the firsts is

583
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: really an important thing. And having someone there along with you,

584
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: whether it's me or whether it's someone else who you

585
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: reconnect with or connect with, to help you through those firsts,

586
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: and then being able to kind of have a therapist

587
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: on standby, and that can be through a couple of years,

588
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: and it doesn't mean weekly sessions. But sometimes you think

589
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: you're fine and then something happens, something happens in the world,

590
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: or there's an earthquake and that used to mean something,

591
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: or that meant something about you, or you being a sinner,

592
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: and suddenly you're panicked or getting into a relationship for

593
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: the first time. What are your rights? What are your boundaries?

594
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: Can you say no? Is it okay to say yes?

595
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: All of it is like how to hold onto your

596
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: voice in connection with somebody else. So I have people

597
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: who kind of see me regularly for the first year,

598
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: and then I will have people kind of slow it

599
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: down a little because I don't want them to move

600
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: their dependency from one place to another and one person

601
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: to another. But I'll say, like, I'm here, you know

602
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: how to reach me, you know how to find me,

603
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: call me if something comes up or if you have

604
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: a nightmare, or someone contacts you from the group to

605
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: try to get you to come back in. So you

606
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: have some trigger point, and it takes a while to

607
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 3: go through a couple of those to learn how to

608
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: handle them, and then you feel a little more rest

609
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: assured that you can handle those things when they come

610
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 3: up again in your life.

611
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: Even though I wasn't in a cult, I was in

612
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: a relationship that was not good for my mental health.

613
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: And then when I got in a new relationship with

614
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: someone who is healthy, my body like freaked out and

615
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 1: like a whole I've been like dealing with a whole

616
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: anxiety disorder situation. I've never considered the possibility that, like, oh,

617
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: when you enter a new relationship that can be enough

618
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: of a change that like it just like triggers old shit.

619
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes it does. It triggers it for a lot

620
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: of reasons too that are kind of unexpected, And one

621
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: is that it's unfamiliar. If it's healthy, it's unfamiliar. Yeah,

622
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: it's cult, right, So you don't know how to play

623
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: that part right. You know how to be submissive, and

624
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: you know how to be unhappy, right, and you know

625
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: how to be voiceless and to go along with things

626
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: and to please the other person. But when someone says no,

627
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 3: I actually want to know what you like, what you want?

628
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: What does this mean?

629
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: Right? And then you can feel like is this a test?

630
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: And you know, is it okay for me to have

631
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 3: a want?

632
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: Right?

633
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: It can bring a lot of things to the surface.

634
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: That's so interesting also in that journey of just like

635
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: trying to unpack this like sudden anxiety, which I'd never

636
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: experienced before. Finding someone who like specializes in the thing

637
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,439
Speaker 1: that you're dealing with. I didn't realize just like how

638
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: important that was going to be. And so I feel

639
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: like people like you are so important because the average

640
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: therapist they hear cults, because I've had a few, they

641
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: hear cult and they're like whoo, or they're like fascinating,

642
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: But it's there's not like that education, that educated perspective,

643
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: you know. So I feel like you're doing very important work.

644
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: Do you get burnout? Like you have a cult podcast?

645
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: You're a cult therapist? Like, is it ever just too much?

646
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: Too much cult?

647
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: That's such a good question. Too much cult? Right? Too

648
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: much cult? Well, to go to what you're saying for

649
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 3: some about talking to a therapist. Yes, there's some therapists

650
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 3: who don't know how to work with us, and it's

651
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: not their fault. There aren't enough programs that change this, right,

652
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: And I've over the years have put together a curriculum

653
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: for high school students to train therapists. And people said, oh,

654
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 3: it doesn't really happen all that often, and there hasn't

655
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: been interesting, But yes, it happens so often, and therapists

656
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: really don't know how to respond. And it's also true

657
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 3: there's some therapists and listeners of any sort, even just

658
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: talking to someone where you can tell they're having this

659
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: sort of like salacious connection with what you're saying, and

660
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: you almost feel like they're going to say, let me

661
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 3: go make some popcorn and I'll come right back. You know. Yeah,

662
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 3: that's very wrong on so many levels too, because you

663
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 3: don't want to be the entertainment. Yeah. So I think

664
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: in terms of burnout, what's been interesting for me and

665
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: I think important is for me, I get a lot

666
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: of positive feedback or the feedback that I get from

667
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 3: the guests on the show, where people will say, can

668
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: you please tell that person that they changed my life?

669
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: You're right, These little like bursts of energy that actually

670
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: I get into my work when that happens, And so

671
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 3: it doesn't even have to be something positive about something

672
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: that I've said, but just that by me giving a

673
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: platform to someone else, that person made a difference in

674
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 3: someone else's life. I mean, that's that's my caffeine. What

675
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: I think is also well, what's been important is for

676
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: me to expand what I sort of see as cultics.

677
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: So I don't mean the definition, but I now work

678
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 3: with people who have been involved with malignant narcissists because

679
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 3: the control is almost identical, the after effects are almost identical.

680
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: People who are involved in conspiratorial thinking and Q and

681
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: on members and et cetera, and multi level marketing schemes,

682
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: awful team treatment programs. So it's sort of taking the

683
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: cult model and seeing where it shows up in a

684
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: lot of different areas. And that's kept it interesting for

685
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 3: me because it adds a lot of variety. But I

686
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: think it's been interesting hopefully for people to see that

687
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be that you're following, you know,

688
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 3: your guru on a mountaintop. You know, could be that

689
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 3: you're buying products and stalking your shelves in your basement

690
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 3: and have going under the same methods of control.

691
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: Right, So, what are the signs that someone might be

692
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: in a high control group or just an unhealthy manipulative relationship.

693
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: What are the some of the hallmarks that we should

694
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: all be looking out for.

695
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: Right? So, sometimes what I noticed when couples come in

696
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: to see me, I'll sometimes guess early on that one

697
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 3: of them is narcissistic in their way. Usually the narcissist

698
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: is very polished, looks well rested, dressed very well, has

699
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 3: sort of a year round ten. And the person therewith

700
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 3: sort of looks like they haven't slept and they didn't

701
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 3: have time to brush their hair because they're in service

702
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 3: in every way to this other person who is sort

703
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 3: of it's like a parasitic relationship. This person is siphoning

704
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 3: energy off of this other person. Right, no longer matters.

705
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 3: But I think the signs that I see are people

706
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 3: suddenly who get derailed, Like they were on a path

707
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: in their lives and suddenly that's not important anymore. And

708
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: it was kind of a good path, like it would

709
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: have helped them feel good and secure, and they were

710
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 3: leading up to that, and suddenly they take a detour

711
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: that's pretty severe. They might change the way they're speaking,

712
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 3: because each culture group has its own lingo, they might

713
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: also be more secretive and also more defensive. There's kind

714
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: of a regressive piece that I pick up on, like

715
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 3: you suddenly feel like you're talking to a teenager again,

716
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 3: even if the person's in their forties, and you know,

717
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: why do you want to know? And you know what's

718
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 3: wrong with you that you're asking me these questions, and

719
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 3: you can really feel like, wow, it is like having

720
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: a preteen or a teenager again who can't tolerate having

721
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 3: those discussions. And I think also for a person to

722
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: say have a new family, people who they're the only

723
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: people they can trust, the only people they can talk to,

724
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: and that's always worrisome because then you know they're involved

725
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: in a group or in a relationship that's sort of

726
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: dividing and conquering, and it's cutting people off from their

727
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 3: life and also from the people who love them unconditionally,

728
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: unlike within a cult, because that's always conditional, and the

729
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 3: people also who have known them and who can hold

730
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 3: a mirror up to the situation and up to the

731
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 3: changes that they're seeing. And so if they don't have

732
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: a relationship or any exposure to those people anymore, then

733
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 3: it's harder for them to have kind of a connection

734
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: to reality and to their past and who they really are.

735
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: So let's say I'm like you when you were younger,

736
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: and I have a sibling or a loved one who

737
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: seems to be in a situation that like that that

738
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about. What advice would you give me in

739
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: that scenario. So I had a model in my family

740
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: for what to do and what not to do. And

741
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: I won't say which parent was which, but.

742
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 3: One of my parents was combative and that went horribly.

743
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 3: And I mean that would go horribly anyway, just no

744
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: matter the situation, but especially with this, because then that

745
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 3: parent fell into the trap that was set by the

746
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: cult or is set by the controlling partner, which is

747
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: anyone who is against you being involved no longer loves

748
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: you and no longer wants what's best for you, and

749
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 3: they're just being selfish and they're the ones trying to

750
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 3: control you and manipulate you. And I want to free

751
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: you from that person. So I'm saying this to make

752
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: sure that people know that when they act in a

753
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 3: very natural, oh my god, stop doing what you're doing way,

754
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: they're falling into that trap. And they're proving something about

755
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 3: themselves in a negative way, improving the leader right or

756
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: proving so don't do that. The other thing, though, to do,

757
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: is to think, like, if I were involved in something

758
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: that I think people would be against, how would I

759
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: want people to approach me? And that's I think a

760
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: good guideline for how you approach other people, Like would

761
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: you want people to say, how could you be so stupid? Mom?

762
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: You know that's right right? Bye bye? But if you

763
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 3: then think I want to engage this person in a conversation,

764
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: and I need to not come across like I know

765
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 3: what's best or that I know something they don't know.

766
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 3: But instead I want to invite them to have a

767
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 3: conversation with me about what they're learning, what they like

768
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: about it, or what they like about that person who

769
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: I can tell is bad news. But still I want

770
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: to hear what that person gives you so that they

771
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: can come into the conversation being the expert of their

772
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: experience from what they think. Even though people and cults

773
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: are the ones who know the least about the cult

774
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 3: because they're kept from researching it, so people outside know

775
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 3: a lot more about the cult than people in it,

776
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 3: which is always good to remember, so they're sometimes not

777
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: playing dumb. They really don't know, like what the leader

778
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: has been up to and what's happened. But I think

779
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 3: if you say, I need to stay connected with this person,

780
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: because a cult will very easily cut off communication and

781
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: then I won't know if they're okay. So instead I'm

782
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 3: going to say, like I encourage family members to do,

783
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: you know what, you might be having a great experience.

784
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: This is what i'm seeing. I'm seeing that you're saying

785
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 3: you're happy, but I'm not seeing happy on your face,

786
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 3: and I'm just can you help me understand that you

787
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 3: want to be kind of wondering out loud. I not

788
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 3: necessarily be so sure that you're right, because the other

789
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: person will pick up on that that you're trying to

790
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 3: lead them somewhere. But I will also say, even during

791
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: an intervention, listen, this is what I think a cult is.

792
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: I hope that's not happening to you. So if you

793
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 3: need to go back, that's fine, but here's a list.

794
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 3: If you happen to see these things, then I want

795
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 3: you to take note of it and then you can

796
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: make your own decision. But also know that if they're

797
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 3: saying this is the only place for you to be.

798
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 3: There is never only one place. There's never only one

799
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: place that has the answer and where happiness exists and

800
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: where God exists. And so don't ever feel that you're

801
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: stuck and you have to stay because of that.

802
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: I have a kind of a question about that. Actually,

803
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: last night my boyfriend was like, when we go home

804
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: for Thanksgiving, I want to talk to your parents about

805
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: their beliefs. I want to know this and I want

806
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: to know that. And I think that would probably be

807
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: helpful for him and them, But also at the same time,

808
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: I think they would just get really excited that he's

809
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: interested in them and this thing and think that he

810
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: wants to join it. Does that happen, Oh yeah, oh yeah.

811
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 3: And sometimes people will use that and say, I really

812
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 3: actually think the only way I can have an open

813
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: conversation with someone is if they think they're going to

814
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 3: be able to recruit me. And so it's not that

815
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 3: you say I'm really interested in getting involved, but you

816
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: just don't say anything negative and you show that you're

817
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 3: interested in hearing more about it. They might think that

818
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 3: he's interested. They might like him, like talking to him

819
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 3: more than they like talking to you. Right, and that

820
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: can be a little Yeah.

821
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: That just breaks my heart though, that they would be

822
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: they would be so excited, you know, they'd be yay,

823
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: we have a n I don't know anyway.

824
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: Right, No, I understand, I understand, But I think as

825
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 3: long as your boyfriend can say if it matters to

826
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: you too, because it would be good if he added

827
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: something into the conversation that helped you felt support it

828
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: and right if he could say to them, listen, you know,

829
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: I do believe in a different way, and I'm happy

830
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: with my belief or my non belief, but I'm so

831
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: glad that you shared what you believe. And now I

832
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: feel like I've gotten to know you about it, and

833
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 3: maybe it be important for you to hear him say

834
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 3: something like that.

835
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: I like that, thank you.

836
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

837
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: I just wanted a real world example of that thank you.

838
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah sure.

839
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 1: I think before we were recording this episode, a dissociation

840
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: came up. I kind of just want to know more

841
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: about like how common that is. I also am selfishly

842
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: interested in it because the past few months, as Megan knows,

843
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: because I won't shut up about it, I've begun experiencing

844
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: derealization for the first time. Which is really really scary,

845
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: and I like, it doesn't happen to that many people

846
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: that I know, And I'm wondering if that is like

847
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: something you see often with people who had like cultic

848
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: experiences in their childhoods Mmmm.

849
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 3: Yes, So it happens a lot, a lot, a lot,

850
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: And I want you to not be afraid of it,

851
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 3: but to know that it's a natural outcome and it's

852
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 3: a way that your brain has taken care of itself.

853
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: And if it's still doing that, then it sometimes means

854
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 3: that there's some things that just haven't been addressed enough

855
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 3: yet or talked about enough yet. And that also if

856
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 3: it happens, to not put yourself down and to not

857
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 3: think there's something wrong with you, that you're feeling it,

858
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 3: or that there's something psychotic about you and you need

859
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: you know it's a psychiatric issue. Your brain takes a

860
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 3: vacation when it needs to and to keep like a

861
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 3: homeostasis to keep you in balance. So probably there was

862
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: a trigger that you might not have been even aware of.

863
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: Because going back to multisensory environments, it could be a sound,

864
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: it could be a song, it could be the sound

865
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 3: of someone's voice, it could be a smell. It could

866
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: be a lot of things that take you back to

867
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: a place where you felt kind of trapped, and so

868
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 3: dissociation often happens when there is a feeling of being trapped,

869
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: like there's no way out and the only way out

870
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 3: is this way out, And for you to remind yourself

871
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 3: that you're safe is a really important thing to kind

872
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: of do grounding techniques, you know, like I'm here and

873
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm say. But the derealization can sometimes come

874
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 3: from you still kind of reconnecting yourselves, because there is

875
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: this cult self that gets very defined, like you have

876
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 3: to behave a certain way and seem a certain way

877
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: and dress a certain way, and you can feel kind

878
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 3: of a detachment from yourself and then things don't feel

879
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 3: quite real. You don't feel real as you're not being real.

880
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 3: So in time it does decrease, but it's good to

881
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 3: take note of it and to not be scared of it.

882
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 3: But if you can, even though it is unpleasant, but

883
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: instead to say, okay, what just happened, what came up

884
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 3: for me? I may or may not be aware of it,

885
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 3: but let me just think back and see what the

886
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: trigger might have been. And that's a helpful exercise to

887
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: do right.

888
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I will like go to my grave demanding

889
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: that culturally we talk about DPDR more because I had

890
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: no idea what it was, and most people I know

891
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: and people in my life, I mean, Megan knew what

892
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: it was and like one other friend, but most of

893
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: the people in my life were like, what are you

894
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: talking about? That sounds weird, and the Internet was like,

895
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: oh maybe it's like it took me a while to

896
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: like understand what it was, so I'm like, I just

897
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: like to talk about it.

898
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, right. It comes also from trauma, Yeah, and also

899
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 3: the traumatic event of being with someone who's been traumatized

900
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 3: or caring about someone who's been traumatized, so that trauma,

901
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 3: that PTSD and derealization can often go hand in hand.

902
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: So if you don't again see it as a problem,

903
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 3: but rather that it is an adaptation and it's a

904
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 3: survival mechanism. But for you to say I actually don't

905
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 3: need it anymore, I'm actually okay, but I want to

906
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 3: understand it so and get help with it so it

907
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: doesn't happen as often because I just don't like the feeling.

908
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 3: Then it's good to address it. Yeah. In therapy or

909
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 3: with trauma informed therapists.

910
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: Right right, totally, thank you, So we only have a

911
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: few minutes left here. Is religious trauma a thing? Is

912
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: that a term you would use?

913
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a thing. It's now in the DSM,

914
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 3: the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, and I'm so glad it is.

915
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: It is something very real, and I think it's something

916
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 3: that wasn't taken as seriously as it should. There's so

917
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: much that happens within spiritual trauma that makes people feel

918
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 3: kind of isolated because then the thing that they had

919
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 3: been raised with with having a sense of a higher

920
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: power or connection to a community or to God, they

921
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: now feel like in order to be safe they have

922
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: to be without all of that, and so they sometimes

923
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: feel isolated or are afraid that means then they're going

924
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 3: to go to Hell or something that it's going to happen.

925
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of impact that it has. And

926
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 3: then people who want to go back into religious life

927
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: don't know who to trust. They don't know if people

928
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 3: are telling them the truth or if people are trying

929
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: to manipulate them. But I think that when you add

930
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 3: a deity into the mix, then you have a lot

931
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 3: more trauma because people really are afraid that they're like

932
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 3: pissing God off, and you don't want to do that right,

933
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: and people get very anxious about it.

934
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: That is terrifying. I mean, the all knowing deity, the

935
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: Lord above all, Like you're in trouble with that guy,

936
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: Like that's that's pretty scary.

937
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

938
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: I still feel like there's some resistance even in myself,

939
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: especially in people who maybe haven't read you know, the

940
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: body keeps the score or whatever. But I feel like

941
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: there's still some resistance to the idea that trauma can

942
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: from stuff that isn't just like a violent rape or

943
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 1: being in a war or you know, like it can

944
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: come from these smaller things that are happening internally. I

945
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: just think that's really important to acknowledge.

946
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think what also happens is this

947
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 3: part of cult programming. I think you learn to just

948
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 3: keep being mean to yourself, so the trauma stays with

949
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 3: you because of what we call the negative introjects, the

950
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 3: way you talk to yourself, the way you damn yourself

951
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: and are this critic like that's so harsh, harsher than anyone.

952
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: Has, and it becomes masochistic, like it feels good to

953
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 2: think that way.

954
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 3: It's so weird, right, it does feel good because it's familiar,

955
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: and also it's supposed to keep you safe.

956
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 1: Right right?

957
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 2: What Ugh, that's a perfect response to that, man.

958
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean c leaders do a lot of work,

959
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 3: but they don't actually do all of the work. They

960
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: just set the ball in motion and have people berate

961
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 3: themselves and keep themselves wrong and keep each other in line,

962
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 3: and you know, they can just sit back and watch it.

963
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 1: M Oh yeah that resonates, Yeah, that does.

964
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 2: Man's so interesting.

965
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

966
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so maybe this is the last like general question.

967
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: What do people get wrong about members of cults or

968
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 1: former members.

969
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 3: Of cults, That there's something wrong with them, that there's

970
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 3: something inherently wrong or something about their wiring, and it's

971
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 3: that they've been put through something. There's something wrong with

972
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 3: the person who leads a group and knowingly does this

973
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 3: to other people, right, that's the disordered part of the group,

974
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 3: not you. And so I think people think that they're

975
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 3: gullible or that they you know, succumb to believing things

976
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 3: that they shouldn't in general, or that there's something weird

977
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: about them, But there's nothing weird about them. Just because

978
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 3: someone has had a life so far that's been different

979
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: than yours doesn't mean there's something different about who they

980
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 3: are as people. And also that when people leave, they

981
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 3: feel like they have to save face. So it's really

982
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 3: important that you're not judgmental of a person who has

983
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 3: been involved in a cult, because oftentimes it took them

984
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 3: a lot of bravery and a lot of time just

985
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: to tell you their story, and so you don't want

986
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 3: to slap them in the face, of course, after they've

987
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 3: finally trusted you with their information, and you don't want

988
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: to add insult to injury. But I think what people

989
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 3: don't realize is that a lot of people were in

990
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 3: their cults not from their own choice. They were born

991
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 3: and raised in groups and it's not a choice they

992
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 3: probably would have made for themselves, but they didn't have

993
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 3: a say. And also that people who get involved in

994
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 3: cults sometimes it has to do with them psychologically or spiritually,

995
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 3: but often it has to do with timing. And people

996
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 3: will say what kind of person gets involved in a cult?

997
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 3: And I often kind of answer that question, but go

998
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 3: to the when the when question and is also important

999
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 3: because it's when you're just out of a bad relationship

1000
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 3: or away from your home for the first time, or

1001
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 3: just diagnosed with something and someone can promise you eternal

1002
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 3: life and right, you know, so it speaks to people,

1003
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 3: certain people, but also different people at different times.

1004
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. It's a good way to put that. Well,

1005
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: do you have any final words for the people? Is

1006
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: there anything that you think is important to leave people

1007
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: with or do you got a slogan? Cults are bad?

1008
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 3: Are bad? Yeah? That took me all night figure that. So,

1009
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 3: you know, I think that what's really important is again

1010
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 3: for people not to ever believe that something only is somewhere,

1011
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 3: that they can only get the answers through one source,

1012
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 3: or God only exists there. But also that there is

1013
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 3: this quote actually from Eric from where he said and

1014
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 3: customs and beliefs, no matter how absurd, bring people together

1015
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 3: and keep them from isolation. So there are a lot

1016
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,919
Speaker 3: of people who just so they don't feel disconnected from

1017
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 3: other people, will believe a lot of things. And you're

1018
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: seeing it in politics, and you're seeing it with conspiratorial thinking,

1019
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: see it in a lot of different places. And so

1020
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 3: I think the message is to reach out to connect,

1021
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: to help. If you know someone is alone, to make

1022
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 3: sure they're not if it's a holiday time, to reach

1023
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 3: out to them. Help people feel connected so they don't

1024
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 3: feel isolated, because then you're much more vulnerable of taking

1025
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 3: on or getting in an abusive relationship just because it's

1026
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 3: a relationship, right, you know, or getting involved in a

1027
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 3: bad group just because you want to have a community.

1028
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, where can people find you on the internet?

1029
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 3: On the Internet, they can find me on Instagram and

1030
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 3: on Twitter and on Facebook through Rachel ban Earnstein or

1031
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 3: Rachel Bernstein LMFT or through the Indoctrination Show podcast and

1032
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 3: the Indoctrination Show comes out every Wednesday. And people can

1033
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 3: also contact me on Indoctrination Show at gmail dot com

1034
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 3: or my private email, Bernstein LMFT at gmail dot com

1035
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 3: if they need counseling, or they know someone who's in

1036
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: a bad situation, or they want to be involved in

1037
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 3: the support group, or they're interested in being a guest

1038
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 3: on the show.

1039
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: Perfect. Thank you so much for talking to us.

1040
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you for all the work that you're

1041
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 3: both doing and using your wisdom, your experience also to

1042
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 3: be a voice and to help others have a voice too.

1043
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 3: It's really wonderful.

1044
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: Thanks all right, that was excellent. Rachel is great. Everyone

1045
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: round of applause for Rachel. I don't know why that

1046
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: was such a card sentence to say, but whoo, so

1047
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: we all know already how you feel about her. We

1048
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: know she is an advocate for uncultiness, yes, and even

1049
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: going to her group sessions would probably not be a cult.

1050
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask you, Megan, would you join

1051
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: the Remnant Fellowship Church which was the Church of Gwen Chamblain,

1052
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: which I referenced in the intro the Weight Loss Religion.

1053
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,439
Speaker 2: Listen that had a lot of stuff in it that

1054
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: nineties Megan would have loved. Nineties. Megan went to weight

1055
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: Watchers with her mom when we both weighed wait way

1056
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 2: less than we should.

1057
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: And wait, I feel like I did too once. I

1058
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: feel like I did too. Yeah, okay, go.

1059
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: On, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember everyone looking at

1060
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 2: us like, I mean, obviously I would look at us

1061
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 2: the same way, like please get the fuck out of here. So,

1062
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I could see myself getting sucked into

1063
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: that shit. I mean, she's pretty strange, but she's pretty

1064
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 2: also addicting, like she's just so weird.

1065
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's fascinating to look at. I mean, she got

1066
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: weirder as time passed, Like there were some of the

1067
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: footage of her in the earlier days. I was like, Okay,

1068
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: she has like normal sized hair. She's like, yeah, bouncy

1069
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: and bubbly.

1070
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: But there's just that twist of like, whoa, this is

1071
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 2: a crazy person and there's going to be a lot

1072
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 2: of drama and I like to watch that unfolds sometimes. Unfortunately,

1073
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 2: so there was some some stuff there that the you know,

1074
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: dark side of me could find some interest, and I'm sure, so, yeah.

1075
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: That is fair, that's fair. I don't think I would

1076
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: join this group. Don't think I would. It appeals to

1077
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: none of my sensibilities. No conservative, you know, evangelical Christian

1078
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: vibes not for me, and also like obsessive dieting stuff

1079
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: not for me. Granted I am fortunate enough to like

1080
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: have a you know, I have a naturally small figure,

1081
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: but I also just inherently disagree with the premise. Yeah,

1082
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: so I'm going to say no to Gwen. But Gwen

1083
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: is you guys, should we spoil what happened to Glenn? Gwen?

1084
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's not spoiling it. It starts the documentary with it.

1085
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: She dies.

1086
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's dead now, you guys. She died in a

1087
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: plane crash, so we can't join the Gwen version of it,

1088
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: but we'll see who her. Yeah, what happens with her success.

1089
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: Anyone who is packing their bags ready to go, You can't.

1090
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 2: She's not there anymore. I know.

1091
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, all right, we did it. We did

1092
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: an episode, Megan. Happy Halloween everyone. Oh wait, Halloween will

1093
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: be over by the time that this comes out, but

1094
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: still happy. Belatea Halloween, you guys.

1095
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we hope you had a good one, and we

1096
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: hope you have a great week, and we can't wait

1097
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: to see you here next time. Remember to follow your gut,

1098
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 2: watch out for red flags.

1099
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,919
Speaker 1: And never ever trust me. Bye bye.