Speaker 1: Mental health At the moment. For many millions, there isn't
Speaker 1: much that feels more important or more urgent than their
Speaker 1: mental health. We've devoted two episodes of this topic. On
Speaker 1: the most recent episode, sportscaster Dan Patrick shared how daily
Speaker 1: debilitating pain pulled him into depression and how he's worked
Speaker 1: through it. Gary Gellman, one of my favorite comedians, was
Speaker 1: featured in our earlier episode on Laughter's Power. In this conversation,
Speaker 1: he tells us about the struggle against his profound anxiety
Speaker 1: and depression. To me, it's truly uplifting and inspiring. It
Speaker 1: urged you to check out his brilliant comedy special from
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, The Great Depression. It had audiences on
Speaker 1: their feet. My wife shade, not my shade, she said, Gary,
Speaker 1: all you are doing was crying and sleeping, and I
Speaker 1: get so defensive. I always say. I also watched Better
Speaker 1: Call Saul. I wish you would pay a more accurate
Speaker 1: picture of what was going on for one hour a
Speaker 1: week for ten consecutive weeks, I pulled it together, but yes,
Speaker 1: I was sleeping and crying. I was so sick. I
Speaker 1: couldn't perform at all. I would bite my lip until
Speaker 1: it bled from anxiety. I was shaking all the time.
Speaker 1: My voice was so stressed. I couldn't really talk. I
Speaker 1: couldn't stand for more than five minutes. I was so
Speaker 1: fatigued all the time. I had to cancel all my
Speaker 1: shows for for months, and I was contemplating retiring from comedy.
Speaker 1: And then I thought about it some and realized that
Speaker 1: retirement it's a bit pretentious for what was going on.
Speaker 1: Johnny Carson retired, Michael Jordan retired. Gary Goldman, you're giving up.
Speaker 1: It's such an amazingly powerful moment as a viewer of
Speaker 1: the Great Depression, much less someone who lived it. To
Speaker 1: see the reaction. People have laughed for an hour, They've
Speaker 1: they've applauded bits that they appreciate the intelligence of as
Speaker 1: well as laugh and at the end, Gary, they get
Speaker 1: on their feet and they give you a standing ovation
Speaker 1: when you deliver the line. Just know that if you're
Speaker 1: suffering from even as severe mental illness, you are not alone.
Speaker 1: And what could be more basic and more powerful than
Speaker 1: to deliver that line and connect with people who loneliness
Speaker 1: and despair is is central to it. And here's somebody
Speaker 1: who's making them laugh, who they feel like has come
Speaker 1: out the other side. I mean, it's it's a it's
Speaker 1: a look in their eye that must be daunting. It
Speaker 1: maybe a little bitter as you get used to it,
Speaker 1: but but also really powerful and gratifying. It wasn't incredibly gratifying.
Speaker 1: And I had done comedy for for twenty five years
Speaker 1: at that point, and when I started touring the Great Depression,
Speaker 1: and I had done great shows and been really funny,
Speaker 1: and to be honest with you, I had been funnier.
Speaker 1: I had gotten more laughs I had. If you, if
Speaker 1: you had taken out the parts where I was being
Speaker 1: serious or or informative, then there was less funny then
Speaker 1: in my past specials, in my past shows. But none
Speaker 1: of those shows on the on the road got standing ovations.
Speaker 1: And I also do meet and greets at the end
Speaker 1: of every show, and I never had people crying when
Speaker 1: they met me and telling me about their struggle and
Speaker 1: there their recovery and what they were and how they
Speaker 1: didn't want to come out because they were so anxious
Speaker 1: tonight and they're so glad they came out. They didn't.
Speaker 1: You never know what you're gonna see from a comedian.
Speaker 1: Even though the thing was labeled the Great Depression. I
Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people knew that they were
Speaker 1: going to hear a story of my recovery from depression
Speaker 1: that I don't get enough press where people were saying,
Speaker 1: this is what the show is about. So it was
Speaker 1: a it was a surprise to them. And and that
Speaker 1: is is so important and I didn't realize it. And
Speaker 1: and it's so interesting because I was I was vulnerable
Speaker 1: in my in my way over the years I was
Speaker 1: I was telling things that that were saying things that
Speaker 1: were sort of odd or esoteric and saying, in effect,
Speaker 1: I think this is funny, do you. I think that's
Speaker 1: a very vulnerable place to to be. And and I
Speaker 1: I think that's that takes some bravery to to share somebody,
Speaker 1: share your humor with with someone, but to go that
Speaker 1: next level and share this thing that Actually I hadn't
Speaker 1: told anybody who wasn't related to me that I was
Speaker 1: in the psych ward. I hadn't told anybody that I
Speaker 1: had electro convulsive therapy. My psychiatrist is an advocate for
Speaker 1: and an expert in something called electro convulsive therapy, which
Speaker 1: used to be called electroshock therapy. But they felt electro
Speaker 1: shock was not quite horrifying enough. They said, yes, electro
Speaker 1: shock is disturbing, but I feel like we're soft selling
Speaker 1: the convulsions, Yes, the writhing. If we could underscore the writhing,
Speaker 1: make that the centerpiece, I feel like we could really
Speaker 1: weed out the cysty season the Mama's Boys. Electro convulsive
Speaker 1: therapy e c T, as it's always called now it
Speaker 1: has a very bad branding problem. In The Great Depression,
Speaker 1: Gary uses rich detail and humor describing these experiences with
Speaker 1: e c T. It was nothing like the horror forced
Speaker 1: on Jack Nicholson's character in One flu with the Cuckoo's Nest.
Speaker 1: Gary relates how for him, the treatments helped lift the
Speaker 1: fog of depression and the extreme anxiety that was amplified
Speaker 1: by his work in front of audiences. It was one
Speaker 1: of the things that maybe maybe didn't cause my depression
Speaker 1: but exacerbated. And it was it was this, and and
Speaker 1: I found that I was letting the audience decide how
Speaker 1: I was going to feel about my self tomorrow morning.
Speaker 1: So I and it was it wasn't there of their fault.
Speaker 1: I was giving them too much power. So I would
Speaker 1: I would often start my show by saying I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very anxious, and I wish you guys knew how much
Speaker 1: power you have over how I'll feel about myself at
Speaker 1: breakfast tomorrow. That if I had a great show, I
Speaker 1: would feel smart, and that I had a future, that
Speaker 1: I that I would continue to earn a living, And
Speaker 1: if I had a bad show, then then who am I?
Speaker 1: What am I? That? That's they found me out last night?
Speaker 1: I was a fraud and they finally found me out.
Speaker 1: And then I came across this quote by by Samuel Beckett.
Speaker 1: And I tried reading Waiting for Godot years ago, and
Speaker 1: and I couldn't get past the foreword. And then I
Speaker 1: tried to read it just the play, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: get past the first few paragraphs. It was way too
Speaker 1: smart for me. But I found this quote by him,
Speaker 1: and it was this ever tried, ever, failed, no matter,
Speaker 1: try again, fail again, failed better, And those two words
Speaker 1: failed better released me of all the perfectionism and the
Speaker 1: weight I put on every single show that if it
Speaker 1: didn't go well, then then oh no, I'm I'm a
Speaker 1: failure and I'm a loser and I'll never write another joke.
Speaker 1: And and then it became you take a risk, take
Speaker 1: at least a risk every time you get on stage.
Speaker 1: Try something that you don't know if it's going to work.
Speaker 1: Try something outrageous, Say something that you've been afraid to
Speaker 1: say for years, such as, ladies and gentlemen, I have
Speaker 1: a blank ee. I have a blank eye. It's on
Speaker 1: my pillow right now. And if it and if they
Speaker 1: don't laugh, then all you did was figure out a
Speaker 1: way that it won't work. But they don't think you're serious.
Speaker 1: Probably they they probably think that's what a comics says.
Speaker 1: They don't know how deeply true it is. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: and I tell you now that that I were Glass
Speaker 1: pointed out that he didn't believe that I really had
Speaker 1: a blanket, and I had to swear to him that
Speaker 1: I really really did. He said, people don't really believe that,
Speaker 1: and I said, well they, first of all, they do,
Speaker 1: and second it's it's true. So I think that when
Speaker 1: when I decided I did that, that I was going
Speaker 1: to actually go after failure and and take its power away.
Speaker 1: And Okay, I failed, but tomorrow the failure will be
Speaker 1: less severe and I'll try something else and over and
Speaker 1: over again. And I read so many, so many athletic
Speaker 1: as well as biographies of writers and athletes, and over
Speaker 1: and over again they they talk about the failures that
Speaker 1: made them. And I remember reading this book of essays
Speaker 1: by Neil game and in in which he just kept saying,
Speaker 1: over and over again, make mistakes, make mistakes. And my
Speaker 1: therapist the permission to fail. He's always stressed that give
Speaker 1: yourself permission to fail, and and I tried it, and
Speaker 1: it was it was a revelations. The other thing that
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about with you is the role
Speaker 1: that because you're one. Thing I didn't realize was that
Speaker 1: people looked at me the same way I looked at
Speaker 1: my favorite comedians and my favorite athletes, as people who
Speaker 1: could make me think differently, who could make me understand
Speaker 1: things in a better way. And what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is that I looked at Jerry West and Terry
Speaker 1: Bradshaw two in particular, and there are others talking about
Speaker 1: their mental illness and their depression, and I thought, Oh,
Speaker 1: if they're feeling bad, then it can't be just that
Speaker 1: I haven't achieved enough to feel good about myself. I
Speaker 1: think as as you get around successful people, you realize
Speaker 1: that a lot of them thought that they would feel
Speaker 1: great as soon as they were successful. And we know
Speaker 1: that that's not always the case, and that there that
Speaker 1: that is not the answer to feeling good about yourself.
Speaker 1: That that, and and I don't know your musical taste,
Speaker 1: but for some reason, I think you might be a
Speaker 1: Springsteen fan. And and I read Springsteen's autobiography and he
Speaker 1: talked about not being able to get out of bed.
Speaker 1: And and at the time he was, if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: at the time he was unable to get out of
Speaker 1: bed because of his depression. He was Bruce Springsteen at
Speaker 1: that time. He was. He was He was the star
Speaker 1: that we we know he was in his in his fifties,
Speaker 1: I think, and when I when I think about that,
Speaker 1: there's no better example of somebody who worked hard, who achieved,
Speaker 1: and who seemed to have it all. And if that
Speaker 1: wasn't the answer to curing depression, then nothing we're actually
Speaker 1: capable of doing is going to cure depression. It's a
Speaker 1: it's chemistry, it's not character. And that when when he
Speaker 1: said that he had gone on an antidepressants and it
Speaker 1: changed his mood and it made him feel better, and
Speaker 1: he got back and he wrote and he performed, and
Speaker 1: he felt good about himself. He shure that that the
Speaker 1: idea that say, well, Bautron is more effective than being
Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, that that was really the the answer. No
Speaker 1: amount of hard work, whether it's him practicing his craft,
Speaker 1: you're practicing your craft, Bradshaw, you can can can keep
Speaker 1: this at bay. I mean that's obviously when you when
Speaker 1: you're feeling something you don't want to feel, you can
Speaker 1: try to bury yourself in your work and make it
Speaker 1: go away. But it doesn't work with with clinical depression,
Speaker 1: does it. I mean, even if you were able to
Speaker 1: write and work, that's not gonna that's not gonna make
Speaker 1: it go away. It's not gonna make things better. And
Speaker 1: that I don't know if that makes you feel better
Speaker 1: or worse. If you can relate to someone like Springsteen
Speaker 1: or Cheese, if even he is subject to all the
Speaker 1: darkness and the evils of this, what am I going
Speaker 1: to do about it? I mean, there's different ways you
Speaker 1: could take his his example or the example of those
Speaker 1: who are heroes and have everything talent, success, money, fame.
Speaker 1: All that. My city was I'll work hard, I'll do
Speaker 1: something great, then I'll feel good about myself. And I
Speaker 1: have found in the past two and a half years
Speaker 1: that it's the opposite. I feel great and now I'm
Speaker 1: working harder and and it's easier. The work is so
Speaker 1: much easier because I don't one, I don't have a
Speaker 1: brain that is that is actually slower. They show that
Speaker 1: brain is slower when you're depressed. It's not working, it's
Speaker 1: not firing, it's not operating at its maximum uh ideal level.
Speaker 1: And so that's a handicap. And then the other thing
Speaker 1: is that depression also causes these ruminations in what you're saying,
Speaker 1: you're you're not talented, you're not smart, you're you're weak,
Speaker 1: you're lazy. And then and so I'm fighting that off
Speaker 1: and trying to write an interesting joke. It's it's just
Speaker 1: too much to ask for. I mean, it's it's interesting
Speaker 1: in the in the physical aspects of depression. And the
Speaker 1: horrible thing about depression is it effects different people different ways,
Speaker 1: so that I would sleep for nineteen hours and still
Speaker 1: be tired, and some people will go days without sleep
Speaker 1: and they can't eating, and other people all they can
Speaker 1: do is eat and they put on all kinds of wit.
Speaker 1: But one of the things I found was that Shane,
Speaker 1: who's about five ten would walk, and I would be
Speaker 1: when I was depressed, I would say, please slow down,
Speaker 1: I can't keep up with you. And and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: six ft six and athletic, and that was that was
Speaker 1: never the case with anyone. I always outpaced everyone. And
Speaker 1: and since I've been feeling better, it's it's back to
Speaker 1: normal where I'm I'm slowing down to so she can
Speaker 1: catch up with me. And and and it was it
Speaker 1: was exhausting, these these block I would walk my dogs
Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes and I would have to take a nap,
Speaker 1: and and and that that's not that's not me. I
Speaker 1: I have, I have energy. And the depression had had
Speaker 1: hijacked my brain as as well as my my my limbs,
Speaker 1: and and I I didn't realize how how far it
Speaker 1: had gotten until I started to recover and found all
Speaker 1: these things so much easier. Do you consider yourself in remission, uh,
Speaker 1: in recovery cured from depression? How do you frame it?
Speaker 1: I would I would never say cured. I I go
Speaker 1: between recovered, recovering and sort of the things I've learned.
Speaker 1: While while I'm not an alcoholic, I've I've been to
Speaker 1: a lot of a meetings and I find there's so
Speaker 1: many so much overlap between recovery from from addiction and
Speaker 1: recovery from depression, just in the in the sort of
Speaker 1: outlook and and the sort of vigilance that you need.
Speaker 1: So so I would say recovery is is something I've
Speaker 1: embraced and and remission which gives it sort of a
Speaker 1: medical sound that that I'm keeping it at day, but
Speaker 1: it is, it is there, and I know the things
Speaker 1: I have to do every day to to keep it
Speaker 1: from from recurring. And and the other thing is is
Speaker 1: to not to not dwell on on relapse, but also
Speaker 1: to know that it's that it's possible, it's happened. I've
Speaker 1: I've had extensive recoveries in the in the past. I
Speaker 1: try to dwell more on why this recovery has been
Speaker 1: so sturdy and so lengthy, because it's lasted for over
Speaker 1: two and a half years, and it's lasted through through
Speaker 1: some pretty severe events in my life. And and I
Speaker 1: I think it's sturdier one because of my vigilance, but
Speaker 1: also because I had never really accepted who I was
Speaker 1: to this degree. There are still things I dislike about myself,
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't I wouldn't say that any of the
Speaker 1: things that I that I don't like about myself are
Speaker 1: are worthy of of condemnation or that I should kill
Speaker 1: myself over, or that are not worth living with. So
Speaker 1: I will say my my feeling about my my currents
Speaker 1: status is that I I I'm in recovery and that
Speaker 1: and that there's been a remission. So I think that's
Speaker 1: that's very effective. And also to avoid terms like like
Speaker 1: uh cured and and and so that's important. I hope
Speaker 1: everybody knows how how grateful I I am just for
Speaker 1: the just for the recovery, and and the fact that
Speaker 1: this this special has resonated with so many people and
Speaker 1: has has raised my profile and and got me out
Speaker 1: to a lot more people. That that's that's icing. But
Speaker 1: I had to before I even started pursuing making the special,
Speaker 1: In making the the live show into a special, I
Speaker 1: had to embrace the idea that it would it. It
Speaker 1: was a possibility that it was only going to be
Speaker 1: for the people who came to my live shows, and
Speaker 1: and that would be enough, and that would be that
Speaker 1: would be success. I think defining success in a in
Speaker 1: a reasonable and honest way, in a in a way
Speaker 1: that doesn't require all kinds of luck and lightning in
Speaker 1: a bottle. I think that's the safest and the and
Speaker 1: the healthiest. Well, I think what's spectacular about it is
Speaker 1: that not only does it help the people with the
Speaker 1: live shows, but anyone who watches it, and it would
Speaker 1: live forever in HBO's specials on there You've done in
Speaker 1: two thousand five. So there's people that aren't even suffering
Speaker 1: from depression yet who may go through bouts and then
Speaker 1: find this in their own time and have it be
Speaker 1: really helpful. I I want to ask just a couple
Speaker 1: more things, one of which is other than the work,
Speaker 1: which speaks for itself brilliantly, is there a message other
Speaker 1: than you are not alone to someone listening to this
Speaker 1: that as at some stage of their own journey that
Speaker 1: you were a message of hope that you can convey
Speaker 1: beyond what you've done already on film. Well, I think
Speaker 1: that sports has given us so many examples, and so
Speaker 1: this is I think this is a good thing. That
Speaker 1: it's become a cliche, and I'm sure that that Jim
Speaker 1: Calvana would be would be pleased that people are using
Speaker 1: it who don't even know the origin of it, But
Speaker 1: that that I'm getting chills just in anticipation of saying it.
Speaker 1: Don't give up, don't ever give up, and and that
Speaker 1: that helped helped me along. And when when he was
Speaker 1: saying don't give up, don't ever give up, it it resonated.
Speaker 1: And I remember my my brother saying that to me,
Speaker 1: and I I think the night of the show, and
Speaker 1: I may have said it on other times, but I
Speaker 1: meant every time I said it, And I feel like
Speaker 1: the night of the show, HBO is filming it, Apatow
Speaker 1: is backstage introducing me and my my brothers are there,
Speaker 1: and my best friends are there, and audience that that
Speaker 1: has has been with me for years is there. Because
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't a huge theater, so it was
Speaker 1: actually a difficult ticket to get, so you had to
Speaker 1: be a fan to even though the tickets weren't on sale.
Speaker 1: And so I had all these people there and I
Speaker 1: and I said it, and I meant it. My only
Speaker 1: fear was that it would come off corny, and it
Speaker 1: was that I I had contemplated suicide sometimes for every
Speaker 1: moment I was awake for days on end, and I said,
Speaker 1: I am so glad I stuck around for this, and
Speaker 1: and it just it's it's laughable what I received just
Speaker 1: for sticking it out. It's it's absurd. If I had
Speaker 1: just had one audience full of these people, it would
Speaker 1: have been worth sticking around for because it felt so good.
Speaker 1: But not only that HBO was there, and my family
Speaker 1: was there, my therapist was there, and Judd Apata was backstage.
Speaker 1: It was it was, it was silly. I literally pinched
Speaker 1: myself on on stage that night because it felt like
Speaker 1: a dream. So it may not be that, but it
Speaker 1: also there are nights, and again I'm gonna come back
Speaker 1: to laughter, there are nights where you're out with your
Speaker 1: friends and and Kurt Vonnegut said that whenever you're feeling great,
Speaker 1: whether you just had sex, whether you just had a
Speaker 1: great meal or a great laugh, you should say to yourself,
Speaker 1: if this isn't nice, I don't know what is, and
Speaker 1: you should say it out loud as sort of a bookmark.
Speaker 1: We need to bookmark these these moments. And that was
Speaker 1: one of those moments. And I know it didn't have
Speaker 1: to be that big because there was a there was
Speaker 1: a birthday. You're you're always going to get your birthday,
Speaker 1: and you're going to say to yourself is this isn't nice.
Speaker 1: I don't know what is. And it's worth sticking around
Speaker 1: for it, and and not giving up is the only
Speaker 1: way you can guarantee that you'll at least have the
Speaker 1: the chance. And I used to and my my, my
Speaker 1: wife was so crucial to this because she kept researching
Speaker 1: developments in treating depression. She wasn't giving up. And and
Speaker 1: part of me was saying, just stay alive in case
Speaker 1: they cure this. Just stay in the game, in case
Speaker 1: they cure this. You don't have to do anything, just
Speaker 1: just read all day or sleep all day, but be
Speaker 1: alive when they cure this. And and and maybe that's
Speaker 1: the message. I know that was such a long, a
Speaker 1: long answer. And I hope I I I hope I
Speaker 1: hit on some of the messages during the You can
Speaker 1: go as long as you want for a message that important,
Speaker 1: I think never giving up starts with that. Using gratitude
Speaker 1: as a bookmark, as Vonnegut said, for all those experiences
Speaker 1: in life that goes a long way. Gary, just just
Speaker 1: those two things, and there will be other audiences and
Speaker 1: other shows down the line. And I hope that um,
Speaker 1: you'll continue to to get the beautiful feedback and and
Speaker 1: it's worth sticking around for all of it. And I
Speaker 1: think I am and your fans are more than grateful
Speaker 1: that you found it within yourself, heated the smart advice
Speaker 1: and got through as dark a time as you have,
Speaker 1: and you've stuck around, damn it, and you're here and
Speaker 1: you get you should enjoy it, and I hope you
Speaker 1: will as we are. Yeah, And I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: to be to be flippant or or as a as
Speaker 1: a joke. I mean I knew that we would like
Speaker 1: each other and and I'm glad I stuck around so
Speaker 1: that so that we we could connect like this. And
Speaker 1: I think that that will um will will connect in
Speaker 1: person some day and I look forward to that. Gary
Speaker 1: and I did have that face to face meeting recently
Speaker 1: a long walk through New York Central Park. I'll tell you,
Speaker 1: Gary Goalman, the walker has tremendous stamina. He went a
Speaker 1: lot farther than I did. I look forward to the
Speaker 1: next walk. For anyone struggling with mental health, there are
Speaker 1: many sources of help out there. Psychology Today dot com
Speaker 1: and a p A dot org have resources to help
Speaker 1: you find a therapist. One website for people in crisis
Speaker 1: is Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot Org the phone number to
Speaker 1: seven three talk eight hundred to seven three eight to five.
Speaker 1: Both Gary and an Patrick sincerely hope that sharing their
Speaker 1: experiences will help others. If you know someone who might
Speaker 1: benefit from their examples, consider suggesting they check out these episodes.
Speaker 1: Mental health needs much more candid conversation. As always, I'm
Speaker 1: grateful to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and our
Speaker 1: producer Jason whitehelp invite you to subscribe, rate, and review
Speaker 1: this podcast and I'll talk to you soon